1. Duh,

    I did not intend to give the impression that the ICTY ruled on whether genocide by Serbs were committed or not during Oric’s trial, I apologize, I see how that could be very confusing to someone not familiar with the charges in the case. I did a very poor job in distinguishing between the two.

    Here’s a link to the actual original summary judgment. I haven’t read the appeal yet, so I’m sure there’s more interesting stuff in that one.

    [link]

    I don’t deny some pretty horrible things happened at Srebrenica, they did, and I am deeply ashamed of that. However, I just don’t feel like morally it rose to the level of what we commonly define as genocide. Generally people think of what Hitler did as genocide, and I don’t think that was what the situation was. I think it was merely petty brutal revenge by local units whose homes were destroyed, not some sort of desire to wipe the entire Bosniak population off the face of the Earth.

    However, in regards to the issue you raised, I was using the term genocide in the commonly understood definition, not the legal one.

    The issue I have with the ICJ judgment on genocide is they avoided dealing with the issue of intent, a number of the judges dissented on that as well.

    Now, I don’t think the ITCY is going to be able to easily avoid bringing up the issue of intent. I haven’t read the indictment, but if intent is listed as one of the components of the genocide claims against him, it might be relevant. The mental state of the people committing the crimes will also be relevant in determining if Mladic had effective control over the troops at that particular moment.
    (Matthew, 1 September 2008 10:59)
  2. Mathew, I like the way you included quotes to dispel arguments by Bad Gorilla, then slid that they ruled there was no genocide in Srebenica as if it were fact.
    However, If you "read" the summary judgement of B. H. vs S. M., filed in the International Court of Justice in relation to genocide you will note that just the oposite is the true facts.
    Pay particular attention to no. 5.
    You can find this on the official ICJ website under press release for Feb 26, 2007
    (duh, 1 September 2008 09:07)
  3. I think there is a basic misunderstanding here, or just lack of communication: There are many, many persons who should be tried INside serbia, for all of their crimes against their countrypeople. unfortunately such trials are not taking place, nor are they likely to, because there is no pressure from outside forces.

    on the other hand, those "men" like karadzic, sesejl, mladic... committed heinous crimes whose main victims were in other countries -- mainly bosnia. thus they could be tried in bosnia, in sarajevo, to be exact, and perhaps they should be, if anyone were talking about the ethical choice.

    but the hague is still happening, and it is the best we've got (esp. post del ponte) so thus they go there.

    whether you like some of the verdicts there or not is totally irrelevant. i personally think most are too lenient, but then i am from the "barbaric" States, where we are still frying some of our criminals, guilty or not!

    as for mladic, i swear i am waiting any day for your hague liason person to announce (as before) that "no competent authority in serbia knows of mladic's whereabouts." then in a day or so we can anticipate his arrest. only 13 years late.

    roberto
    robertoruss@yahoo.com
    (roberto, 1 September 2008 07:27)
  4. “Naser Oric was released because the evidence of the so-called “thousands and thousands” were not found. (Bad Gorilla, 31 August 2008 18:49)”

    Sorry Mr. Gorilla, but you didn’t read the summary judgment at all did you? I’ll highlight the findings for you…

    “On 21 June 1992, Ratkovici, Gornji Ratkovici and Ducici were attacked by Bosnian Muslim fighters from two nearby villages and followed by a crowd of Bosnian Muslim civilians…Both in Ratkovici and Gornji Ratkovici, Bosnian Muslim fighters and civilians burned property on a large scale. the destruction of property in Ratkovici and Gornji Ratkovici on 21 June 1992 by Bosnian Muslims fulfils the elements of wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, not justified by military necessity.”

    “On 27 June 1992, Bradjevina was attacked by Bosnian Muslim fighters. Only some of the attackers were identified as locals from the surrounding Bosnian Muslim villages, and they were followed by a crowd of Bosnian Muslim civilians. Bosnian Muslim fighters and civilians burned property in Bradjevina on a large scale. Consequently, the Trial Chamber is satisfied that the destruction of property in Bradjevina on 27 June 1992 by Bosnian Muslims fulfils the elements of wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, not justified by military necessity.”

    “On 8 August 1992, Jezestica was attacked by Bosnian Muslim fighters from Šusnjari, Jaglici and Glogova, as well as by Bosnian Muslim fighters of the 16th Muslim Brigade from Tuzla. The fighters were followed by a crowd of Bosnian Muslim civilians. Bosnian Muslim fighters and civilians burned property in Jezestica on a large scale. Consequently, the Trial Chamber is satisfied that the destruction of property in Jezestica on 8 August 1992 by Bosnian Muslims fulfils the elements of wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, not justified by military necessity.”

    “On 7 and 8 January 1993, Kravica, Siljkovici and Jezestica were attacked by Bosnian Muslim fighters from Suceska, Glogova, Biljeg, Mosici, Delici, Cerska, Skugrici, Jaglici, Susnjari, Brezova Njiva, Osmace, Konjevic Polje, Jagodnja, and Joseva. Also the Accused and members of his group of fighters participated in the attack. The fighters were followed by thousands of Bosnian Muslim civilians. Houses in the area were burning. In Jezestica, Bosnian Muslim fighters and civilians set many houses on fire, causing destruction on a large scale. In Kravica, property was also destroyed on a large scale. Consequently, the Trial Chamber is satisfied that the destruction of property in Jezestica on 7 and 8 January 1993 by Bosnian Muslims fulfils the elements of wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, not justified by military necessity.”

    The Court ruled he wasn’t guilty because it was the masses of Bosnian civilians committing the crimes and that Oric had no control over them. They basically ruled that the people who were killed by Serbs (and Mladic) in the Srebrenica massacre were actually War Criminals (combatants, not civilians), thus supporting the argument that the main motivation behind the Serbian actions was not genocide but simple revenge and murder. Still very horrible and to be condemned, but not genocide, and it simply might not have been possible for Mladic to have controlled and restrained the local Serb groups whose families and villages were utterly destroyed by these same people.

    Is it possible that Mladic might go free under the same logic that freed Oric?
    (Matthew, 31 August 2008 23:24)
  5. The west, including the United Nations administration in Kosovo, used Haradinaj to control the masses. They intentionally ignored this thug's illegal activity becaused he served their purposes. Politics trump justice.

    “The prosecution’s chief witness, Tahir Zemaj, and his son and nephew were shot dead during the investigation. Another witness, Kjutim Berisha, died two weeks before the trial when he was hit by a car in Podgorica, the Montenegren capital.”
    [link]

    “Prosecutors both in Kosovo and The Hague argue that the United Nations and Western governments bent over backwards to stop the trial of someone charged with war crimes.”
    [link]
    (Roger7, 31 August 2008 19:38)
  6. 'He handed himself in. That is a pure signal that he must be innocent.'

    chi-town, its nice to hear that you believe that Vojislav Seselj is innocent.

    I'll have to remember to rob a bank, and if I'm caught, to turn up for my court appearance, then I will be declared innocent, not on evidence, but by impressing jury members with my presence...
    (bganon, 31 August 2008 19:13)
  7. “And how do you explain the fact that ICTY has released Naser Oric who is responsible for the death of thousands and thousands of Serbs from Bosnia.”

    Naser Oric was released because the evidence of the so-called “thousands and thousands” were not found. A quite different case from Karadzic and Mladic, where there is a lot of evidence everywhere in Bosnia, from videotape to DNA-identified skeletons.

    It’s high time for Serbia to catch Mladic and send him to the Hague.
    (Bad Gorilla, 31 August 2008 18:49)
  8. bmrusila, lets set the records straight here... Mr. Haradinaj did not run away from the international organizations. He handed himself in. That is a pure signal that he must be innocent. Only people who run away are suspects, if you are innocent why are you running away?? And secondly thousand of Serbs did not die in Dukagjin Valley because not many serbs lived in that region where Haradinaj operated.

    The reason why serbs see the trials unfair is because well most of your leaders are hiding away somewhere, afraid of justice.
    (chi-town, 31 August 2008 17:54)
  9. Probably its not worth replying to Erik, who could have even posted as kan, and god knows where kan is from...

    However, let me take this opportunity to say that I support the trial of suspected war criminals, not because I want to enter the EU, but because serious crimes must be examined by the courts. Hague justice is a (unfortunate) different point, clearly trial in Serbia would be better.

    I want peace more than anybody, I've seen what war does to people.
    (bganon, 31 August 2008 16:06)
  10. Erik,

    And how do you explain the fact that ICTY has released Naser Oric who is responsible for the death of thousands and thousands of Serbs from Bosnia. How do you explain the fact that Ramush Haradinaj (also responsible for the death of thousands of Serbs in Kosovo) is set free by ICTY?

    Shame on you for not mentioning this.
    (bmrusila, 31 August 2008 14:18)
  11. It's a shame Serbia tries to find this people to join the Union. Instead, Serbia should try to catch them because of the thousands of executions the Bosnian Serb army committed. It's sad that economic motives prevail. Also sad is the disgusting reaction above, which shows that many people doesn't want peace. How do you explain this to the survivors of the massacre of Srebrenica, of the shellings of Sarajevo? Shame on you!
    (Erik, 31 August 2008 13:18)
  12. Sorry Kan but maybe you are not aware of the living and democracy standard of China and Russia , you should travel over there and see in what conditions lives Russians and Chinese, I'm sure you'd change your mind.
    (marco neri, 31 August 2008 12:57)
  13. All Serbs should unite against the anti-serbian-nato-boot-lickers and the next sell out to west.

    Russia and China are gaining straingth it´s time for a roll back from their evil empire soon.
    (kan, 31 August 2008 11:51)