Croatia: Mass grave exhumation

Anything to add Victor?

Maybe this is a fantasy story Victor. Highly likely that it is part of an orchestrated campaign by the Croatian Govt to perpetuate the myth that they were the sole victims in the Balkan wars of the 90's. "Defenceless little Croatia massacred by the Serbs" is the official govt line. Fortunately we know the truth - the atrocities committed in WWII with no apologies and the ethnic cleansing of all the Serbs in Krajina to create a monoethnic state. the Pope will be pleased. For a man who claimed to be god's representative on earth he didn't speak out when the Croats were busy expelling the Serbs.

I heard from Croatian relatives in Zagreb (as my family were truly Yugoslav with my branch being Serb) that the Croats are starting to get very apologetic for the crimes of humanity that they commited in the 90's against the Serbs in the UN safe zone of Krajina. In fact they have said that it is likely that the Croatian authorities are on the verge of formalising an indictment with Ceku as a scapegoat to help ease their path towards the EU who want more evidence from Croatian that it has moderated! I wondre if he will get 35 years too!!!

Has anyone else heard the same ???

My wife is a Serb from Petrinja. Never really hit home how lucky she was to escape as she never wants to talk about 'the war'.

On the day Martic gets 35 years in prison for his crimes it is a sham that Tudjman doesn't get a posthumous indictment.

I dont think you will find many croatians that dont recognise that there were croats who have committed crimes in 90's. But hey at least they can admit what happened, which is much more than can be said of their serbian neighbours.

And also note that this happened in '95, not 91. Whilst I dont approve of what happened as these ppl were innocent, the date of when this happened is fairly significatn.

PB, those crimes you mention have been looked at and apologised for. In fact, Croatia has a memorial each year, particularly at Jasenovac. Im quiet happy for Ustasha crimes to come out as it will also mean Cetnik behaviour, in particular towards the end of the war will too (id say it is already). But im sure denials etc are already prepared in belgrade but unfortunately in todays information age, "lie lie lie until someone believes you" is a much harder policy to get away with. Even the documents serbs hid from ICTY will eventually come out, not that they need to as simply by hiding documents, guilt is admitted (otherwise why would u have anything to hide).

My best friend's dad was born in the forests around Petrinja during WW2 where his grandma gave birth fleeing from Croats..

It was quite common to run to the hills on a regular basis..
How they managed to stay alive amazes me.

So to add to that, the next time people dismiss what happened in 1941, DO NOT think what happened in '91 was something unrelated..
Those kind of stories were never taught by Tito, and kept inside of homes..
People like Victor need to stop creating a lie that Serbs came from out of nowhere to cause death and destruction..
As if SERBS started the troubles, and are to blame for all the woes of today..

Ya, there have been no indictments because the victims were Serbs.

For years, all medias have presented crimes against the Muslims and the Croats. In this article, we see clearly that innocent Serbs have also been abused and killed. And it is right for the Serbs to denounce our silence, including mine, on such crimes. The Croats who perpetrated these crimes are criminals and should face justice. I hope thet are put under arrest and sentenced for what they did.

This a tragedy to see how justice depends on what ethnicity you belong to.

Why are murdered serbs worth less than croats and muslims?

Milan Martic gets 35 years, Agim Ceku gets prime minister spot and promises from the "west" about a independent country. Hypocracy has no end in this story of so called american humanitarian intervention in former Yugoslavia.

To: Princip

I have heard similar in Belgrade a few months ago.
Ceku's days are numbered. He is only free because of the USA. When the question of no independence is finally decided on Kosovo, Ceku is done. The USA will blame him for the violence that might spill in Kosovo, the Croatians will blame him for Krajina and Serbs will blame him for Kosovo. It will not be good to be Mr. Ceku in the next 2 or 3 months, perhaps even sooner. He has the most to lose, by the way his fellow mates in the Hague will sooner or later rat him out too, if it means reducing their sentence.

Although I welcome any effort by the Croats to admit crimes, I highly doubt that there will be a great movement to come to terms with their past, whether it is with WWII or the most recent war. I lived in Zagreb and the prejudice and hatred towards the Serbs are so entrenched in both culture and society that many generations will have to pass before there is any true and meaningful reconciliation. A first step should be to encourage Croatian Serbs to return to there homes. The Croatians are masters at lip-service because they want so badly to get into the EU. I recently visited Dubrovnik and was shocked to see a HUGE billboard with Gotovina's face plastered all over it calling him a hero. This was a tourist area. I still travel through Croatia monthly and along the highway you can freely buy at rest stops pictures and Ustache/Nazi trinkets. I mean who are we kidding!

“My wife is a Serb from Petrinja. Never really hit home how lucky she was to escape as she never wants to talk about 'the war'. (Anthony Shelmerdine, Tuesday, 12 June, 2007, 14:22)”

My wife is also from Petrinja, write me if you like Anthony, lazslow@hotmail.com

Maybe now Victor you can see why your private messages to me upset my wife so much. My wife was only 16 when Operation Storm happened.

“PB, those crimes you mention have been looked at and apologized for. In fact, Croatia has a memorial each year, particularly at Jasenovac. (Daneil, Tuesday, 12 June, 2007, 15:12)”

Daniel are you perhaps referring to the time Tudjman wanted to bury fascists at Jasenovac? Daniel, you are the one who has consistently claimed that the current Croatian flag bears no resemblance to the Ustashe flag and that Serbs were unreasonable in that it reminded them of the Ustashe era and lived in fear because of that and many other actions committed by the Tudjman regime. You mention timeframes as important, what about the firing of Serbs from government positions and such?

The reality is Daniel, while there are many decent Croatians, Tudjman was a monster on equal footing with Milosevic, and he idealized the Ustashe, you can not make the argument that Serbs had nothing to fear from such a man. I drive through Krajina every year, and its still a wasteland of destruction.

I think Stipe Mesic summed up ordinary Croats views of Serbs - We won twice, alluding to their atrocities committed in WWII i.e. genocide and mass conversion, and then secondly to the ethnic cleansing of the entire serbian population of Krajina. What a surprise that Catholic dominated Europe a) helps Croatia perpetuate the Croat good guy, Serb bad guy myth b) indicts a very small number of Croats to the Hague c) offers them European membership with no strings attached.

With the war in Bosnia for example, where the total number of people who died, died roughly in proportion to the ethnic make-up of Bosnia i.e. 40% Serb, 45% Muslims, where are all the perpetrators of atrocities against Serbs in the Hague??

DOUBLE STANDARDS.

«Maybe now Victor you can see why your private messages to me upset my wife so much. My wife was only 16 when Operation Storm happened. »

My private message were for you and not for your wife. Furthermore, your wife must not forget that what happened in 1000s of villages and towns across Bosnia is far more tragic that what happened in the Krajina. All the Serbs were evacuated before the arrival of the Croats except to a few 100s that they left behind. Martic is the one responsible for what happened in the Krajina and he has been sentenced to go to jail for 35 years.

"I dont think you will find many croatians that dont recognise that there were croats who have committed crimes in 90's. But hey at least they can admit what happened, which is much more than can be said of their serbian neighbours. (Daneil, Tuesday, 12 June, 2007, 15:12)"
You know Daniel, because of my very strong calls for Serbs to apologize for the crimes committed in our name, PB simply couldn't believe that I was Orthodox. I am one of these "Serbian" neighbors to which you refer and I've always been very vocal about condemning the crimes of Milosevic. I admit I've been rather hard on the Tudjman regime, but that is because I feel in my heart that Tudjman was just as evil as Milosevic.
Have you read Tudjman's writings Daniel? I have, and personally I just don't see how a Serb could feel safe living under the rule of such a man. How do you think we should have responded? Just ignore the revival and revision of the Ustashe? As I've said, I've seen Krajina with my own eyes, and its COVERED in Ustashe graffiti, you can not claim that the shadow of evil cast by the Ustashe regime did not taint Tudjman and his cronies. He glorified in it. Just think for a second what the reaction of the Jewish people would be in a similar situation. While maybe you did not want to associate the new Croatian state with the Ustashe regime, Tudjman most certainly did. Then again, it almost sounds like you think the Ustashe did not commit the crimes for which they have been accused of? Was there no "King of the Cut Throats"? No "Skull Smashes"? No "Serb Cutters"? No baskets full of Serbian eyeballs? The Ustashe were brutal on a level unsurpassed by any other atrocities the Balkans has ever seen.
Daniel, just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the destruction of Mostar? Was there any valid reason for turning on the Bosniaks as the Croatians did?
Also, I've never been able to figure out if both Croatia and Serbia wanted to divide Bosnia between us, why didn't we just vote on it democratically? Tudjman and Milosevic were working together. It seems to me we could have easily worked out our issues among ourselves without having to resort to violence.
"Furthermore, your wife must not forget that what happened in 1000s of villages and towns across Bosnia is far more tragic that what happened in the Krajina.(Victor, Tuesday, 12 June, 2007, 19:05)"
You know Victor, today is a day to remember her family that were victims and are very likely to be in that mass grave to which this article is about. This is not an article about Serbian crimes. Why aren't you not making comments like "every week a new mass grave is found full of Croatian victims". You claim to be for the victims, here's your chance to strongly condemn Croatian violence, here are your victims, at least two of us who posted today have very close family that directly experienced this crime, and you chose to minimize it instead. Even in Bosnia, according to the ICTY itself, the Serbs account for 30% of the deaths and make up 34% of the population. It is not a Black & White situation as you like to portray. Just ONCE Victor you should show some true respect for the Serbian victims. This is my family in those graves, and I simply am not going to stand by while you justify these crimes committed against them. You sir, have a very black heart if you can not see why your comments are so very wrong.

«...the total number of people who died, died roughly in proportion to the ethnic make-up of Bosnia i.e. 40% Serb, 45% Muslims,»

Completely erroneous figure! 70% of the victims were Muslims and 30 % non-Muslims. This is the right figure actually recognized in most reports. Get your number right!

I think it is really dangerous to reduce every argument between nations in the Balkans to a counting game of atrocities between communities.

Croatian, Bosniak, and Kosovo Albanians have been quick to dispute the number of atrocities committed against Serbs in WW2 (in addition to the 1990s) and also whether those atrocities should be used as justification for territory.

We have now seen an exaggeration of Serb crimes from the 1990s and a downplaying of their suffering in order to justify the optimal political power for each of those groups in their respective conflicts.

The truth with regard to how to reach peace and prosperity cannot be found in either of these positions. What needs to occur is power-sharing in an entrenched, institutional manner. This must occur on a philosophical level where each community is given complete and total autonomy from the other.

There was an interesting article written by Marko Attila Hoare(who writes primarily on Bosniak affairs) who stated that the reason genocide (in his opinion) was able to occur in Bosnia was because the majority of Serbs had a complex in which Serbs are the only victims. The argument goes on to say that because of this the vast majority of Serbs who oppose all war crimes are paralyzed to acknowledge any injustice perpetrated by some of their co-nationals simply because the very notion goes so against their inherint decency and non-violent sense of self. He basically says that a large majority of Serbs do not support war crimes, never wanted them, and have not/would not participate in them.

I believe this idea can be applied across the Balkans. Which brings us back to our problem. Each group says something like this: you killed more at this particular time- which is always more important than suferings of the other group at another time or place, and our killings were done as a revenge for prior crimes so they don't really count.

The truth is that Croats, Bosniaks, and Kosovo Albanian should have the right to complete self government free from Serbian rule. But Serbs of these areas should also receive the exact same rights. Creative solutions in reaching new political models are required and consensus is a must. Difficult compromises are required to be made by all. This is the only way to permanently end the Balkan tragedy.

"Completely erroneous figure! 70% of the victims were Muslims and 30 % non-Muslims. This is the right figure actually recognized in most reports. Get your number right!
(Victor, Tuesday, 12 June, 2007, 20:11)"
PB does seem to be off, but so are you Victor. Even if you insist on using the numbers from the RDC, its 66.5% for the Bosniaks. However Victor, the ICTY is the official word on the matter and we should use their numbers. Which is the percentage I mentioned. The RDC has some interesting ways they break down the numbers, which I find rather odd and most likely incorrect as they directly contradict the official numbers from the ICTY, so they should be discarded as inaccurate.
For example, they claim only 9% of the civilian deaths were Serbs and that 36% of the military deaths were Serbs. In order for this to be true, the Serbian army would have suffered a seriously high causality rate, and the reality is the Serb forces were much better equipped then the other forces that were fighting. I can not see how its possible to claim that the Serbian forces lost as much as the RDC are claiming.
The numbers coming out of the ICTY seem to reflect reality a lot better with around a 30% causality rate for the Serbian forces and around 30% for civilian forces. How does the RDC come up with the same total number killed as the ICTY, but have a 9% (versus 30%) rate for Serbian civilian deaths? The ICTY is not known for being pro-Serb so you can not claim they are bias.
Besides Victor, despite your claims that you are using the numbers of the RDC, you still claim 250,000 Bosniaks were killed, despite the RDC resoundly disagreeing with those numbers. Even they put the number of Bosniaks killed at 64,000.
Victor, I do find it rather amusing that you are trying to correct someone in the numbers game. It was only recently that you revealed the "source" of your numbers, and you can't even get that part right, you still are misquoting the RDC.
The simple reality is, according to the ICTY the casualties mirrored the population nearly identically, which is what you would tend to expect in a civil war.

Victor,
"For years, all medias have presented crimes against the Muslims and the Croats" - the truth was there if you wanted to see maybe this will make you do some actual research on the subject but all the same you atleast acknowledge you have been deceived with the black & white, good vs bad when in fact the reality is far more multicated and saddly all were victims by all!!!

Moreover Victor you clearly need to understand the impact of your at best "ignorance" of events in the former Yugolsavia - I would suggest you look into why the 'precani' Serbs (beyond Serbia proper in Bosnia & Krajina) reacted the way they did when faced with emblems and actions in 1990 reminiscint of the Facsict Ustache of the second world war who controlled this exact same region that you in the past implied that the Serbs were the only perpertrators. I would suggest you try to obtain a copy of a book by Edmund Paris - Genocide in satellite Croatia, 1941-1945, published by American Institute for Balkan Affairs (1961). Seeing as your obsessed by numbers how about the 700,000 Serbs, Roma & Gypsies who were exterminated by the Croatian Ustache and thier Muslim SS Handzar friends in the second world war wit the blessing of the German Nazi's.

That said Victor I am disgusted by those Serbs who did act in an evil, horrific and inhuman manner when taking the lives or brutalising of others who just happen to be of a different ethnic group and earlier wrongs do not condone such act but do give reasoning for the fear and psychosis of the Serbs faced with what was presented as the same about to happen again and ther are many stories of atrocities comitted against the Serbs in the 90's to have given magnification to such fears. I hope you read this and understand that all Serbs want is equality of justice and for the truth and 35 years for Martic but 2 years for Oric does little to allow Serbs to believe there is an equivalence of justice!

Daniel,
what did you expect the Serbs in Krajina to do when the Independent State of Croatia has the same:
Name
Flag
National Emblem
National Anthem
Currency
Uniforms (Nazi black shirts)
Pure blooded police
Nazi terminology of WWII
as that of the the Ustache regime in 1941!!!

You don't have to believe a Serb but here is a quote from a group who know about brutality and genocide and bear in mind this was quoted in 1990;

"In Croatia, dangerous signals are appearing on the political landscape Croatian President Franjo Tudjman and his conservative, nationalist party recently won majority in the Croatian Parliament. Tudjman, one of the authors of the "Jasenovac Myth", reduces the number of Jewish victims of the Holocaust from six million to one million, and states that historical data about Jasenovac is "inflated". He further wrote of alledged "PARTICIPATION OF JEWS IN THE LIQUIDATION OF GYPSIES IN JASENOVAC," AND ACCUSED JEWS OF HAVING TAKEN "THE INICIATIVE IN PREPARING AND PROVOKING NOT ONLY INDIVIDUAL ATROCITIES BUT ALSO *MASS SLAUGHTER* OF NON-JEWS, Communists, Partisans and Serbs....

... Meanwhile, the new Croatian Democratic Union (CDU) government has taken steps to form a special police force made up of "PURE CROATS WITHOUT MIXTURE OF OTHER BLOOD"...
- Embracing the Brutalities of the Past.
The Wiesenthal Center's World Report, August 1990, Vol 11 No 3 Circ. 376,280, Page 9

I don't deny that Serbs did not commit atrocities that is wrong and justice is required but like the saying goes
"If it looks like a duck,
walks like a duck,
quacks like a duck...
the chance is - it is a duck!"
and thus when the Croatian authorities act like a their Ustache predecessor chances are....

«...it is really dangerous to reduce every argument between nations in the Balkans to a counting game of atrocities between communities.»

And it is very dangerous as I have written many times to reduce to same common denominator all crimes. What happened in Srebrenica is far more tragic, according to me, that what happened in the Krajina. In the Krajina, the Serbs had the opportunity to evacuate its population before the arrival of the Croats; in Srebrenica, the Muslims did not have the same opportunity. Even those who surrendered were gone down.

As long as the Serbs don't establish for themselves that what the Muslim Bosnians passed through is without comparision with their own casualties, they will be no peace between the Serbs and the Muslims.

As simple as that!

It is interesting that this article is only published in Serbian media...if it was a mass grave full of Albanian/Bosnian Muslim/Croats it would be on every major news agencies front page. If you dont believe me type in Serbia in google news and you will see nothing of this comes up but when it was alleged that a mass grave was found in Souther Serbia full of Albanians about 2 days ago you would have about 1000 pings. Shame on the world, shame on every citizen of this world...we are headed nowhere!

What the Serbs have accomplished in Croatia, their murders and the ethnic cleansing started in 1991 is directly responsible for what happened in the Krajina in 1995. This is a vicious cricle. According to Serbs like Matthew, what happened in Croatia, the assassination of 300 patients for ex., have links with what happened durinh WW2, and historians would certainly conclude that what happened in the Krajina from 1991 to 1995, displacement of the Croat and other non-Serb population, and the wide scale of the widespread and pervasive crimes perpetrated against the non-Serb population must have rendered such crimes common knowledge.

History will show clearly that Serbs from Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia have worked together to achieve the objective of a united Serb state, and the amount of non-Serbs deaths wete of no importance.

As simple as that, Matthew! And this has to do with facts not with emotions. You'll have to look for «black hearts» inside your own people.

Matthew,

Tudjman writings you refer of made no headlines at the time in Yugoslavia and was only brought up after by serbs to give weight to crimes. In any case, separation of Krajina from Croatia was not due Ustasha but due to wanting to form Greater Serbia and fear of ustasha came from its leaders and Milosevic. Its called brainwashing. Martic and Babic both did not say anything about Ustasha or Tudjman writings. In fact Babic admitted that his RS Krajina started the war. Enough said.

How you should have responded? Maybe actually wait to see what happens and if it happens actually defend yourself of an attack and not start wiping out non-serb civilians out of Krajina. I dont see any law that allows killing out of paranoia.

As for Tudjman, he invited Serb leaders to Zagreb for a meeting to explain what was happening from Croatian side....everyone came except RS Krajina leaders. why is that? Tudjman associated Croatia with its independence, and not ustasha. whilst i can see that this is what ustasha wanted, hardly enough to associate him with Ustasha. Sure, there was ustasha graffiti, as there was cetnik graffiti and as there is Nazi graffiti in every country you go to. Doesnt mean that all of a sudden that country is purely Nazi.

Also Matthew, Mostar was not actually destroyed. And as I recall, Croats and Bosniaks managed to form a federation.

I also drive through Krajina and yes it is a wasteland but you forget that Krajina was not majority serb populated before the war. thats a fact that people seem to forget.

Victor and Matthew...i think you both should check your sources for how many people have been killed in Bosnia, including the percentage for each ethnicity... to say 70% of the victims were muslim is over exaggerated.. keep in mind the statistics were seperated mostly by Bosnian croat and muslim, and Bosnian serb casualties... the croat and muslim casualties together could possibly make up that 70% figure.. but there were times when they fought between eachother. I think we can safely say that at least 35% of the casualites were serbian..all this according to the ICTY figures. But at the end of the day, when you look at it...the numbers cannot show that there was one main aggressor...but several

I think you'll find you are wrong Victor if you do some work and find objective reports instead of biased subjective reports. try the UN for starters.

What the Serbs have accomplished in Croatia, their murders and the ethnic cleansing started in 1991 is directly responsible for what happened in the Krajina in 1995. This is a vicious circle. According to Serbs like Matthew, what happened in Croatia, the assassination of 300 patients for ex., have links with what happened during WW2, and historians would certainly conclude that what happened in the Krajina from 1991 to 1995, displacement of the Croat and other non-Serb population, and the wide scale of the widespread and pervasive crimes perpetrated against the non-Serb population must have rendered such crimes common knowledge.

History will show clearly that Serbs from Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia have worked together to achieve the objective of a united Serb state, and the amount of non-Serbs deaths were of no importance. A genocide was committed in Srebrenica, you must not forget this, and nothing of this sort in the Krajina.

I try to be objective with my stance; try to do the same.

Daniel......have you been watching Nicija Zemlja? (No Man's Land).....the scene when they argue "Ko je poceo rat?"

""In fact Babic admitted that his RS Krajina started the war. Enough said""

Oh no we didnt!

You started the war

Your argument is straight out of the film ;-)))

“Also Matthew, Mostar was not actually destroyed. And as I recall, Croats and Bosniaks managed to form a federation.”

I’ve been to Mostar recently and it’s nearly completely destroyed still. It was the most destroyed city I saw in the Balkans. I can only guess you haven’t been there.

I noticed you completely side stepped the actual question, which was there a valid reason for the Croatians attacking the Bosniaks? Yes, they managed to from a Federation, I guess it was a choice between two evils, but that still does not explain the Croatian violence committed against Bosniaks. I guess there was just no reason for it?

"As long as the Serbs don't establish for themselves that what the Muslim Bosnians passed through is without comparision with their own casualties, they will be no peace between the Serbs and the Muslims."

It is true- Bosniaks suffered higher casulaties than Serbs in the 1992-1995 war. However, each Balkan group has experienced a moment of conflict with a neighbouring people which has resulted in an episode where they are more of a victim in collective terms than another.

This being said, my comment was aiming to address a productive solution to the issue of conflict between Balkan ethnic groups. I believe that this approach works better than applying a game of philospohical rock-paper-scissors where crimes trump over eachother and cancel themselves out.

The truth is that crimes are a manifestation of political struggle between groups. Inequality is the root of this. I believe a constructive approach respects that people should have local autonomies within larger state structures so that they are not unjustly dominated.

It is very sad how one-sided the world can be with regards to genocide. Some genocides get all the publicity and are projected as the victims. Victims of similar crime belonging to the other side do not even get a passing mention, or worse are branded as criminals them selves. This is the most shamful aspect of the international community and world media.

.....from India

Although I welcome any effort by the Croats to admit crimes, I highly doubt that there will be a great movement to come to terms with their past, whether it is with WWII or the most recent war. I lived in Zagreb and the prejudice and hatred towards the Serbs are so entrenched in both culture and society that many generations will have to pass before there is any true and meaningful reconciliation. A first step should be to encourage Croatian Serbs to return to there homes. The Croatians are masters at lip-service because they want so badly to get into the EU. I recently visited Dubrovnik and was shocked to see a HUGE billboard with Gotovina's face plastered all over it calling him a hero. This was a tourist area. I still travel through Croatia monthly and along the highway you can freely buy at rest stops pictures and Ustache/Nazi trinkets. I mean who are we kidding!

“My wife is a Serb from Petrinja. Never really hit home how lucky she was to escape as she never wants to talk about 'the war'. (Anthony Shelmerdine, Tuesday, 12 June, 2007, 14:22)”

My wife is also from Petrinja, write me if you like Anthony, lazslow@hotmail.com

Maybe now Victor you can see why your private messages to me upset my wife so much. My wife was only 16 when Operation Storm happened.

“PB, those crimes you mention have been looked at and apologized for. In fact, Croatia has a memorial each year, particularly at Jasenovac. (Daneil, Tuesday, 12 June, 2007, 15:12)”

Daniel are you perhaps referring to the time Tudjman wanted to bury fascists at Jasenovac? Daniel, you are the one who has consistently claimed that the current Croatian flag bears no resemblance to the Ustashe flag and that Serbs were unreasonable in that it reminded them of the Ustashe era and lived in fear because of that and many other actions committed by the Tudjman regime. You mention timeframes as important, what about the firing of Serbs from government positions and such?

The reality is Daniel, while there are many decent Croatians, Tudjman was a monster on equal footing with Milosevic, and he idealized the Ustashe, you can not make the argument that Serbs had nothing to fear from such a man. I drive through Krajina every year, and its still a wasteland of destruction.

Anything to add Victor?

Maybe this is a fantasy story Victor. Highly likely that it is part of an orchestrated campaign by the Croatian Govt to perpetuate the myth that they were the sole victims in the Balkan wars of the 90's. "Defenceless little Croatia massacred by the Serbs" is the official govt line. Fortunately we know the truth - the atrocities committed in WWII with no apologies and the ethnic cleansing of all the Serbs in Krajina to create a monoethnic state. the Pope will be pleased. For a man who claimed to be god's representative on earth he didn't speak out when the Croats were busy expelling the Serbs.

I heard from Croatian relatives in Zagreb (as my family were truly Yugoslav with my branch being Serb) that the Croats are starting to get very apologetic for the crimes of humanity that they commited in the 90's against the Serbs in the UN safe zone of Krajina. In fact they have said that it is likely that the Croatian authorities are on the verge of formalising an indictment with Ceku as a scapegoat to help ease their path towards the EU who want more evidence from Croatian that it has moderated! I wondre if he will get 35 years too!!!

Has anyone else heard the same ???

My wife is a Serb from Petrinja. Never really hit home how lucky she was to escape as she never wants to talk about 'the war'.

On the day Martic gets 35 years in prison for his crimes it is a sham that Tudjman doesn't get a posthumous indictment.

I dont think you will find many croatians that dont recognise that there were croats who have committed crimes in 90's. But hey at least they can admit what happened, which is much more than can be said of their serbian neighbours.

And also note that this happened in '95, not 91. Whilst I dont approve of what happened as these ppl were innocent, the date of when this happened is fairly significatn.

PB, those crimes you mention have been looked at and apologised for. In fact, Croatia has a memorial each year, particularly at Jasenovac. Im quiet happy for Ustasha crimes to come out as it will also mean Cetnik behaviour, in particular towards the end of the war will too (id say it is already). But im sure denials etc are already prepared in belgrade but unfortunately in todays information age, "lie lie lie until someone believes you" is a much harder policy to get away with. Even the documents serbs hid from ICTY will eventually come out, not that they need to as simply by hiding documents, guilt is admitted (otherwise why would u have anything to hide).

My best friend's dad was born in the forests around Petrinja during WW2 where his grandma gave birth fleeing from Croats..

It was quite common to run to the hills on a regular basis..
How they managed to stay alive amazes me.

So to add to that, the next time people dismiss what happened in 1941, DO NOT think what happened in '91 was something unrelated..
Those kind of stories were never taught by Tito, and kept inside of homes..
People like Victor need to stop creating a lie that Serbs came from out of nowhere to cause death and destruction..
As if SERBS started the troubles, and are to blame for all the woes of today..

Ya, there have been no indictments because the victims were Serbs.

For years, all medias have presented crimes against the Muslims and the Croats. In this article, we see clearly that innocent Serbs have also been abused and killed. And it is right for the Serbs to denounce our silence, including mine, on such crimes. The Croats who perpetrated these crimes are criminals and should face justice. I hope thet are put under arrest and sentenced for what they did.

This a tragedy to see how justice depends on what ethnicity you belong to.

Why are murdered serbs worth less than croats and muslims?

Milan Martic gets 35 years, Agim Ceku gets prime minister spot and promises from the "west" about a independent country. Hypocracy has no end in this story of so called american humanitarian intervention in former Yugoslavia.

To: Princip

I have heard similar in Belgrade a few months ago.
Ceku's days are numbered. He is only free because of the USA. When the question of no independence is finally decided on Kosovo, Ceku is done. The USA will blame him for the violence that might spill in Kosovo, the Croatians will blame him for Krajina and Serbs will blame him for Kosovo. It will not be good to be Mr. Ceku in the next 2 or 3 months, perhaps even sooner. He has the most to lose, by the way his fellow mates in the Hague will sooner or later rat him out too, if it means reducing their sentence.

I think Stipe Mesic summed up ordinary Croats views of Serbs - We won twice, alluding to their atrocities committed in WWII i.e. genocide and mass conversion, and then secondly to the ethnic cleansing of the entire serbian population of Krajina. What a surprise that Catholic dominated Europe a) helps Croatia perpetuate the Croat good guy, Serb bad guy myth b) indicts a very small number of Croats to the Hague c) offers them European membership with no strings attached.

With the war in Bosnia for example, where the total number of people who died, died roughly in proportion to the ethnic make-up of Bosnia i.e. 40% Serb, 45% Muslims, where are all the perpetrators of atrocities against Serbs in the Hague??

DOUBLE STANDARDS.

«Maybe now Victor you can see why your private messages to me upset my wife so much. My wife was only 16 when Operation Storm happened. »

My private message were for you and not for your wife. Furthermore, your wife must not forget that what happened in 1000s of villages and towns across Bosnia is far more tragic that what happened in the Krajina. All the Serbs were evacuated before the arrival of the Croats except to a few 100s that they left behind. Martic is the one responsible for what happened in the Krajina and he has been sentenced to go to jail for 35 years.

"I dont think you will find many croatians that dont recognise that there were croats who have committed crimes in 90's. But hey at least they can admit what happened, which is much more than can be said of their serbian neighbours. (Daneil, Tuesday, 12 June, 2007, 15:12)"
You know Daniel, because of my very strong calls for Serbs to apologize for the crimes committed in our name, PB simply couldn't believe that I was Orthodox. I am one of these "Serbian" neighbors to which you refer and I've always been very vocal about condemning the crimes of Milosevic. I admit I've been rather hard on the Tudjman regime, but that is because I feel in my heart that Tudjman was just as evil as Milosevic.
Have you read Tudjman's writings Daniel? I have, and personally I just don't see how a Serb could feel safe living under the rule of such a man. How do you think we should have responded? Just ignore the revival and revision of the Ustashe? As I've said, I've seen Krajina with my own eyes, and its COVERED in Ustashe graffiti, you can not claim that the shadow of evil cast by the Ustashe regime did not taint Tudjman and his cronies. He glorified in it. Just think for a second what the reaction of the Jewish people would be in a similar situation. While maybe you did not want to associate the new Croatian state with the Ustashe regime, Tudjman most certainly did. Then again, it almost sounds like you think the Ustashe did not commit the crimes for which they have been accused of? Was there no "King of the Cut Throats"? No "Skull Smashes"? No "Serb Cutters"? No baskets full of Serbian eyeballs? The Ustashe were brutal on a level unsurpassed by any other atrocities the Balkans has ever seen.
Daniel, just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the destruction of Mostar? Was there any valid reason for turning on the Bosniaks as the Croatians did?
Also, I've never been able to figure out if both Croatia and Serbia wanted to divide Bosnia between us, why didn't we just vote on it democratically? Tudjman and Milosevic were working together. It seems to me we could have easily worked out our issues among ourselves without having to resort to violence.
"Furthermore, your wife must not forget that what happened in 1000s of villages and towns across Bosnia is far more tragic that what happened in the Krajina.(Victor, Tuesday, 12 June, 2007, 19:05)"
You know Victor, today is a day to remember her family that were victims and are very likely to be in that mass grave to which this article is about. This is not an article about Serbian crimes. Why aren't you not making comments like "every week a new mass grave is found full of Croatian victims". You claim to be for the victims, here's your chance to strongly condemn Croatian violence, here are your victims, at least two of us who posted today have very close family that directly experienced this crime, and you chose to minimize it instead. Even in Bosnia, according to the ICTY itself, the Serbs account for 30% of the deaths and make up 34% of the population. It is not a Black & White situation as you like to portray. Just ONCE Victor you should show some true respect for the Serbian victims. This is my family in those graves, and I simply am not going to stand by while you justify these crimes committed against them. You sir, have a very black heart if you can not see why your comments are so very wrong.

«...the total number of people who died, died roughly in proportion to the ethnic make-up of Bosnia i.e. 40% Serb, 45% Muslims,»

Completely erroneous figure! 70% of the victims were Muslims and 30 % non-Muslims. This is the right figure actually recognized in most reports. Get your number right!

I think it is really dangerous to reduce every argument between nations in the Balkans to a counting game of atrocities between communities.

Croatian, Bosniak, and Kosovo Albanians have been quick to dispute the number of atrocities committed against Serbs in WW2 (in addition to the 1990s) and also whether those atrocities should be used as justification for territory.

We have now seen an exaggeration of Serb crimes from the 1990s and a downplaying of their suffering in order to justify the optimal political power for each of those groups in their respective conflicts.

The truth with regard to how to reach peace and prosperity cannot be found in either of these positions. What needs to occur is power-sharing in an entrenched, institutional manner. This must occur on a philosophical level where each community is given complete and total autonomy from the other.

There was an interesting article written by Marko Attila Hoare(who writes primarily on Bosniak affairs) who stated that the reason genocide (in his opinion) was able to occur in Bosnia was because the majority of Serbs had a complex in which Serbs are the only victims. The argument goes on to say that because of this the vast majority of Serbs who oppose all war crimes are paralyzed to acknowledge any injustice perpetrated by some of their co-nationals simply because the very notion goes so against their inherint decency and non-violent sense of self. He basically says that a large majority of Serbs do not support war crimes, never wanted them, and have not/would not participate in them.

I believe this idea can be applied across the Balkans. Which brings us back to our problem. Each group says something like this: you killed more at this particular time- which is always more important than suferings of the other group at another time or place, and our killings were done as a revenge for prior crimes so they don't really count.

The truth is that Croats, Bosniaks, and Kosovo Albanian should have the right to complete self government free from Serbian rule. But Serbs of these areas should also receive the exact same rights. Creative solutions in reaching new political models are required and consensus is a must. Difficult compromises are required to be made by all. This is the only way to permanently end the Balkan tragedy.

"Completely erroneous figure! 70% of the victims were Muslims and 30 % non-Muslims. This is the right figure actually recognized in most reports. Get your number right!
(Victor, Tuesday, 12 June, 2007, 20:11)"
PB does seem to be off, but so are you Victor. Even if you insist on using the numbers from the RDC, its 66.5% for the Bosniaks. However Victor, the ICTY is the official word on the matter and we should use their numbers. Which is the percentage I mentioned. The RDC has some interesting ways they break down the numbers, which I find rather odd and most likely incorrect as they directly contradict the official numbers from the ICTY, so they should be discarded as inaccurate.
For example, they claim only 9% of the civilian deaths were Serbs and that 36% of the military deaths were Serbs. In order for this to be true, the Serbian army would have suffered a seriously high causality rate, and the reality is the Serb forces were much better equipped then the other forces that were fighting. I can not see how its possible to claim that the Serbian forces lost as much as the RDC are claiming.
The numbers coming out of the ICTY seem to reflect reality a lot better with around a 30% causality rate for the Serbian forces and around 30% for civilian forces. How does the RDC come up with the same total number killed as the ICTY, but have a 9% (versus 30%) rate for Serbian civilian deaths? The ICTY is not known for being pro-Serb so you can not claim they are bias.
Besides Victor, despite your claims that you are using the numbers of the RDC, you still claim 250,000 Bosniaks were killed, despite the RDC resoundly disagreeing with those numbers. Even they put the number of Bosniaks killed at 64,000.
Victor, I do find it rather amusing that you are trying to correct someone in the numbers game. It was only recently that you revealed the "source" of your numbers, and you can't even get that part right, you still are misquoting the RDC.
The simple reality is, according to the ICTY the casualties mirrored the population nearly identically, which is what you would tend to expect in a civil war.

Victor,
"For years, all medias have presented crimes against the Muslims and the Croats" - the truth was there if you wanted to see maybe this will make you do some actual research on the subject but all the same you atleast acknowledge you have been deceived with the black & white, good vs bad when in fact the reality is far more multicated and saddly all were victims by all!!!

Moreover Victor you clearly need to understand the impact of your at best "ignorance" of events in the former Yugolsavia - I would suggest you look into why the 'precani' Serbs (beyond Serbia proper in Bosnia & Krajina) reacted the way they did when faced with emblems and actions in 1990 reminiscint of the Facsict Ustache of the second world war who controlled this exact same region that you in the past implied that the Serbs were the only perpertrators. I would suggest you try to obtain a copy of a book by Edmund Paris - Genocide in satellite Croatia, 1941-1945, published by American Institute for Balkan Affairs (1961). Seeing as your obsessed by numbers how about the 700,000 Serbs, Roma & Gypsies who were exterminated by the Croatian Ustache and thier Muslim SS Handzar friends in the second world war wit the blessing of the German Nazi's.

That said Victor I am disgusted by those Serbs who did act in an evil, horrific and inhuman manner when taking the lives or brutalising of others who just happen to be of a different ethnic group and earlier wrongs do not condone such act but do give reasoning for the fear and psychosis of the Serbs faced with what was presented as the same about to happen again and ther are many stories of atrocities comitted against the Serbs in the 90's to have given magnification to such fears. I hope you read this and understand that all Serbs want is equality of justice and for the truth and 35 years for Martic but 2 years for Oric does little to allow Serbs to believe there is an equivalence of justice!

Daniel,
what did you expect the Serbs in Krajina to do when the Independent State of Croatia has the same:
Name
Flag
National Emblem
National Anthem
Currency
Uniforms (Nazi black shirts)
Pure blooded police
Nazi terminology of WWII
as that of the the Ustache regime in 1941!!!

You don't have to believe a Serb but here is a quote from a group who know about brutality and genocide and bear in mind this was quoted in 1990;

"In Croatia, dangerous signals are appearing on the political landscape Croatian President Franjo Tudjman and his conservative, nationalist party recently won majority in the Croatian Parliament. Tudjman, one of the authors of the "Jasenovac Myth", reduces the number of Jewish victims of the Holocaust from six million to one million, and states that historical data about Jasenovac is "inflated". He further wrote of alledged "PARTICIPATION OF JEWS IN THE LIQUIDATION OF GYPSIES IN JASENOVAC," AND ACCUSED JEWS OF HAVING TAKEN "THE INICIATIVE IN PREPARING AND PROVOKING NOT ONLY INDIVIDUAL ATROCITIES BUT ALSO *MASS SLAUGHTER* OF NON-JEWS, Communists, Partisans and Serbs....

... Meanwhile, the new Croatian Democratic Union (CDU) government has taken steps to form a special police force made up of "PURE CROATS WITHOUT MIXTURE OF OTHER BLOOD"...
- Embracing the Brutalities of the Past.
The Wiesenthal Center's World Report, August 1990, Vol 11 No 3 Circ. 376,280, Page 9

I don't deny that Serbs did not commit atrocities that is wrong and justice is required but like the saying goes
"If it looks like a duck,
walks like a duck,
quacks like a duck...
the chance is - it is a duck!"
and thus when the Croatian authorities act like a their Ustache predecessor chances are....

«...it is really dangerous to reduce every argument between nations in the Balkans to a counting game of atrocities between communities.»

And it is very dangerous as I have written many times to reduce to same common denominator all crimes. What happened in Srebrenica is far more tragic, according to me, that what happened in the Krajina. In the Krajina, the Serbs had the opportunity to evacuate its population before the arrival of the Croats; in Srebrenica, the Muslims did not have the same opportunity. Even those who surrendered were gone down.

As long as the Serbs don't establish for themselves that what the Muslim Bosnians passed through is without comparision with their own casualties, they will be no peace between the Serbs and the Muslims.

As simple as that!

It is interesting that this article is only published in Serbian media...if it was a mass grave full of Albanian/Bosnian Muslim/Croats it would be on every major news agencies front page. If you dont believe me type in Serbia in google news and you will see nothing of this comes up but when it was alleged that a mass grave was found in Souther Serbia full of Albanians about 2 days ago you would have about 1000 pings. Shame on the world, shame on every citizen of this world...we are headed nowhere!

What the Serbs have accomplished in Croatia, their murders and the ethnic cleansing started in 1991 is directly responsible for what happened in the Krajina in 1995. This is a vicious cricle. According to Serbs like Matthew, what happened in Croatia, the assassination of 300 patients for ex., have links with what happened durinh WW2, and historians would certainly conclude that what happened in the Krajina from 1991 to 1995, displacement of the Croat and other non-Serb population, and the wide scale of the widespread and pervasive crimes perpetrated against the non-Serb population must have rendered such crimes common knowledge.

History will show clearly that Serbs from Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia have worked together to achieve the objective of a united Serb state, and the amount of non-Serbs deaths wete of no importance.

As simple as that, Matthew! And this has to do with facts not with emotions. You'll have to look for «black hearts» inside your own people.

Matthew,

Tudjman writings you refer of made no headlines at the time in Yugoslavia and was only brought up after by serbs to give weight to crimes. In any case, separation of Krajina from Croatia was not due Ustasha but due to wanting to form Greater Serbia and fear of ustasha came from its leaders and Milosevic. Its called brainwashing. Martic and Babic both did not say anything about Ustasha or Tudjman writings. In fact Babic admitted that his RS Krajina started the war. Enough said.

How you should have responded? Maybe actually wait to see what happens and if it happens actually defend yourself of an attack and not start wiping out non-serb civilians out of Krajina. I dont see any law that allows killing out of paranoia.

As for Tudjman, he invited Serb leaders to Zagreb for a meeting to explain what was happening from Croatian side....everyone came except RS Krajina leaders. why is that? Tudjman associated Croatia with its independence, and not ustasha. whilst i can see that this is what ustasha wanted, hardly enough to associate him with Ustasha. Sure, there was ustasha graffiti, as there was cetnik graffiti and as there is Nazi graffiti in every country you go to. Doesnt mean that all of a sudden that country is purely Nazi.

Also Matthew, Mostar was not actually destroyed. And as I recall, Croats and Bosniaks managed to form a federation.

I also drive through Krajina and yes it is a wasteland but you forget that Krajina was not majority serb populated before the war. thats a fact that people seem to forget.

Victor and Matthew...i think you both should check your sources for how many people have been killed in Bosnia, including the percentage for each ethnicity... to say 70% of the victims were muslim is over exaggerated.. keep in mind the statistics were seperated mostly by Bosnian croat and muslim, and Bosnian serb casualties... the croat and muslim casualties together could possibly make up that 70% figure.. but there were times when they fought between eachother. I think we can safely say that at least 35% of the casualites were serbian..all this according to the ICTY figures. But at the end of the day, when you look at it...the numbers cannot show that there was one main aggressor...but several

I think you'll find you are wrong Victor if you do some work and find objective reports instead of biased subjective reports. try the UN for starters.

What the Serbs have accomplished in Croatia, their murders and the ethnic cleansing started in 1991 is directly responsible for what happened in the Krajina in 1995. This is a vicious circle. According to Serbs like Matthew, what happened in Croatia, the assassination of 300 patients for ex., have links with what happened during WW2, and historians would certainly conclude that what happened in the Krajina from 1991 to 1995, displacement of the Croat and other non-Serb population, and the wide scale of the widespread and pervasive crimes perpetrated against the non-Serb population must have rendered such crimes common knowledge.

History will show clearly that Serbs from Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia have worked together to achieve the objective of a united Serb state, and the amount of non-Serbs deaths were of no importance. A genocide was committed in Srebrenica, you must not forget this, and nothing of this sort in the Krajina.

I try to be objective with my stance; try to do the same.

Daniel......have you been watching Nicija Zemlja? (No Man's Land).....the scene when they argue "Ko je poceo rat?"

""In fact Babic admitted that his RS Krajina started the war. Enough said""

Oh no we didnt!

You started the war

Your argument is straight out of the film ;-)))

“Also Matthew, Mostar was not actually destroyed. And as I recall, Croats and Bosniaks managed to form a federation.”

I’ve been to Mostar recently and it’s nearly completely destroyed still. It was the most destroyed city I saw in the Balkans. I can only guess you haven’t been there.

I noticed you completely side stepped the actual question, which was there a valid reason for the Croatians attacking the Bosniaks? Yes, they managed to from a Federation, I guess it was a choice between two evils, but that still does not explain the Croatian violence committed against Bosniaks. I guess there was just no reason for it?

"As long as the Serbs don't establish for themselves that what the Muslim Bosnians passed through is without comparision with their own casualties, they will be no peace between the Serbs and the Muslims."

It is true- Bosniaks suffered higher casulaties than Serbs in the 1992-1995 war. However, each Balkan group has experienced a moment of conflict with a neighbouring people which has resulted in an episode where they are more of a victim in collective terms than another.

This being said, my comment was aiming to address a productive solution to the issue of conflict between Balkan ethnic groups. I believe that this approach works better than applying a game of philospohical rock-paper-scissors where crimes trump over eachother and cancel themselves out.

The truth is that crimes are a manifestation of political struggle between groups. Inequality is the root of this. I believe a constructive approach respects that people should have local autonomies within larger state structures so that they are not unjustly dominated.

It is very sad how one-sided the world can be with regards to genocide. Some genocides get all the publicity and are projected as the victims. Victims of similar crime belonging to the other side do not even get a passing mention, or worse are branded as criminals them selves. This is the most shamful aspect of the international community and world media.

.....from India