Witness: Šešelj had Chetnik ideology

Vojislav Šešelj’s war crimes trial continued today with the prosecution’s expert witness Yves Tomic taking the stand.

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  1. Id like to applaud all the people who are having constructive arguments and not bashing like I have seen with a lot of our people. I still could not help but notice the notion of nationalism some still radical residing within some of these comments. The notion to support a political group just because that group represents your nationality or deny facts only for the sake of preserving their nationality as pure and just reflects our nationalistic tendencies which further explains why arguments never go anywhere. Serbs supporting Serbs, and Croats supporting Croats etc for the sake of national pride. This is a big fallacy of judgement in the majority of arguments. Rather we need to remove these tendencies and support the truth and facts even if it makes a certain group look bad. We also must remember that When a certain group such as Cetniks and Ustase are being criticized, these criticisms need to stay within the specific political group or person specific to the crime and not generalize over an entire nation. It is important to remember that it is these specific people who are being criticized and not Serbs, Croats or Bosniaks. Furthermore we must differentiate between conspiracy and facts and bring out as many primary sources as possible to make such things plausible and valid. Hopefully then we can move on, accept our pasts, the good and the bad and live together in peace and prosperity.
    (Abdullah Islamovic, 17 August 2012 00:00)

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  2. Drina - I'm sorry about your greatgrandfather but, that's war. However, you're missing the point. Show me evidence that the Ravna Gora Movement (Chetniks) had any policy of genocide against anyone or any nation. Show me a number of Chetnik victims that compare to those of Ustashe & Handzar SS division victims. Do you understand what I'm asking???

    Ravnagora (or JV or Chetnik) policy never condoned nor encouraged the destruction or extermination of any civilians or of any Yugoslav minority. On the other hand, Ustasa policy (including the Muslim Handzar Division & Skender Beg Divisions) enforced and proceeded with a policy of genocide of Serbian civilians in Yugoslavia. In addition,the KPJ enforced the liquidation of all Yugoslav citizens who opposed their directives.

    Again, I challenge all who think otherwise to prove it.

    On another note, it's evident that you've been systematically educated in this subject incorrectly just by the comments you've posted. The Ravnagora movement had many Muslims, Croatians & Slovenians in it's ranks. Just to mention a few:

    Muslims in the Ravna Gora Movement (just to name a few):
    -Imam Dzemal Krslakovic
    -Major Fehim Musakadic
    -Lieutenant Omer-Beg Cengic
    -Lieutenant Husnija Cengic
    -Judge Mustafa Pasic
    -Dr. Ismet Popovac
    -Smajo Cemalovic
    -Mustafa Berberovic
    -Abid Prguda
    -Omer Kalajdzic
    -Muhamed & Abid Mehmedovic
    -Mustafa Leko
    -Mustafa Mulalic (member of the Central National Committee of the Ravna Gora Movement)
    -Alija Konjhodzic (Writter & Publisher. Founder of the Chetnik magazine "Bratstvo")

    Croatians in the Ravna Gora Movement (just to name a few):
    - Lieutenant Zvonimir "Zvonko" Vuckovic (cammander of the 1st Ravna Gora Corps
    -Lieutenant Colonel Dragos Dejanovic (commadant of the 3rd Ravna Gora Batallion)
    -Bozidar Lakic (Dinara Chetnik Division)

    Slovenians in the Ravna Gora Movement (just to name a few)

    -Povelnik Karl Novak
    -Vojvoda Uros Susteric
    -Major Jozev Pevec
    (Likota, 1 February 2008 07:44)

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  3. "Was your grandfather partisan? If he was, I will give you an answer why he was killed. Chetniks were certainly not a bloodthirsty bunch of criminals. The other part of your post you are speaking about reconciliation? Did you actually suggest that Serbs were supposed to wait to be slaughtered? Or do you suggest that we should just forget Serbian victims?"

    I misspoke when I said my grandfather; it was my great-grandfather. And no, he was not a Partisan. He was a civilian and was killed because he was a Muslim and that fact only. Whether you are willing to grasp that fact or not is a different issue. I am not suggesting that "Serbs were supposed to wait to be slaughtered" or that Serbian victims should be forgotten. You however forget/or choose to ignore the fact that it was the Serbs that started the war and they were the ones who started killing, pillaging and slaughtering people. Muslims in Tito's Yugoslavia never schemed of getting rid of their countrymen; after all Tito was the one who recognized us as an ethnic group. Arguably, we respected and loved that country more than either Serbs or Croats. And please, if we are going to talk about mass graves please remember just Srebrenica; I don't even need to mention hundreds of others across Bosnia. And please do enlighten me about the mass graves of the Serb population. I did say in my first post that reconciliation will only come when all sides take responsibility for their actions. I stand by that. I invite you to start with yourself and open yourself to the idea and facts that Serbs did start the war in Bosnia and committed majority of crimes. I am first to say that any Muslim soldier who killed a non-combatant during the war should answer for their crime. You should be able to say that about your people too.
    (Drina, 31 January 2008 18:58)

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  4. Tito was the true Yugoslav hero. Down with royalty and bourgosie.
    (Niall O'Doherty, 31 January 2008 12:59)

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  5. Drina,

    Was your grandfather partisan? If he was, I will give you an answer why he was killed. Chetniks were certainly not a bloodthirsty bunch of criminals. The other part of your post you are speaking about reconciliation? Did you actually suggest that Serbs were supposed to wait to be slaughtered? Or do you suggest that we should just forget Serbian victims? Well, you know what; the real reconciliation will come when all sides acknowledge their crimes. If that would have happened after the WWII the last war would not take place. Serbs did acknowledge their crimes but the others stay silent. In Croatia Thompson is screaming "SRBE NA VRBEBE" and the entire nation get collective orgasm after this sentence and you are talking about reconciliation. Please do not preach us about the morality and forgiveness because I can not just forget the mass graves with Serbian bodies all over Croatia and Bosnia during all wars, including the WWI and the last one. I prefer us to be the guilty one this time.
    (bmrusila, 31 January 2008 00:38)

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  6. Likota said: "Good! I challenge all to bring hard evidence of the alledged atrocities committed by the Chetniks during WWII. Let's bring it all out on the table!
    ......I anticipate a whole lot of nonsense comments or nothing at all."
    My grandfather was executed by Chetniks during WWII. After his throat was cut on one of the Drina bridges in Gorazde region, his body was tossed into the river, much like what happened at the beginning of 1992 when Bosnian Muslims where slaughtered in Foca, Visegrad and other parts of Bosnia. Talk about hard evidence. There seems to be this pattern with Bosnian Serbs in their inability to take any responsibility for the crimes that they have committed. There is always some sort of a defense or diversion in mind. It is always about what we suffered and what they did to us, without taking into consideration how it all may have come about. The argument of some sort of an Islamic plot in Bosnia is really just a diversion from the real issue of what happened in Bosnia; i.e. Serbs taking their rage on the Bosnian Muslim and Croat population. I am tired of certain Serbs jumping on the bandwagon of blaming the Muslims for their own despicable actions. The bottom line is that until Serbs take responsibility and recognize their crimes (and for that matter all sides do) there will be not peace and reconciliation. Dreams of parting Bosnia based on the division create by genocidal ethnic cleansing need to stop as well. Self determination only works when it is truly a "self determination". Thousands of Bosnian Muslims did not agree to having their homes burned and their families killed and then be presented with the idea that all sides should have self-determination in this new godforsaken regime of what is Bosnia now.
    (Drina, 30 January 2008 22:25)

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  7. Like I thought...A lot of "side-stepping" "flippin' & a floppin'" by the Chetnik critizisers. A lot of non-sense comments that can't be backed up.

    As far as Stjepan Radic, his assailant was incarcerated by the Crown. As far as Yugoslavia falling apart at the invasion of the Nazis; half of the officer staff of the Royal Yugoslav Army were of non-Serbian origin. They willingly surrendered themselves and their troops to their traditional ally. This is the thanks the Serbs got for liberating them from Austro-hungary. If the Serbs were as totalitarian as some say, then the country would not have been called the Kingdom of the Serb, Croats & Slovenes and later renamed to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. It would have been simply called the Kingdom of Serbia and all it's minorities would have been assimilated into the Serbian nation.
    (Likota, 30 January 2008 19:45)

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  8. SinCity,

    What are you talking about? You have no clue who the Chetnics were and why did they kill Croats. Those killed Croats were ustashas and of course the main role of Chetnics during the WWII was to rescue the Serbs living in Croatia and Bosnia. Did you forget Jasenovac and Stara Gradiska? I think there are only Serbian and Jewish bodies, but mostly Serbian.

    Besides many people in ex YU do not know anything or have just a bit of clue who were the Chetnics, real Chetnics. Unfortunately they were demonised for defending Serbs from slaughtering by Muslims and Croats. After the WWII and forceful creation of New Yugoslavia there was need to set the balance between Croats and Serbs in order to wipe away war nightmares and make Serbs and Croats live together. Therefore Chetnics were equalized with Ustasas even though they had nothing in common. Thanks God Serbs did not forget ever what happened to them in Croatia. Chetnics were honest King’s soldiers.

    My family always stood for the King and our Country and for that reason my father’s uncle was brutally murdered in Chicago by UDBA while my grandfather was regularly beaten and imprisoned for openly expressing disrespect and hatred for communists. During the war father’s uncle (Chetnic) was taken as a war prisoner in Macedonia and sent to Germany where he was working as agriculturist in the fields of the rich Germans. After the war he moved to USA with his German wife who was previously the lady of the house where he was working. My father’s uncle was suspected for murdering Josip Kras which was nonsense. My father was interrogated by the police each time he would come back from abroad (where he was doing his specializing studies). In another words, the life under Tito and his fellow communists was nightmare for my family.

    Ironically, my family begun to breath freely under Milosevic, even though we had never supported his policy.
    (bmrusila, 30 January 2008 16:48)

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  9. Princip, Stevo, u r missing the point. Point is not about who abandoned who. Cetnik actions middle-end of the world war 2 is the point. however noone really in the world cares about croatia or serbia or bosnia in ww2. 90's is still fresh so it has some preferance to some ppl but that will go too and noone will care in another 20 years (assuming anyone cares now).

    On a separate note, if anyone is interestd in actually seeing why people were found guilty/not guilty at ICTY and make their own judgements, full transcrips of the trials EVERY day of each case is available below. People can read it and make up their own minds in each case. I find it handy as evidence is put by prosecution, scrutinised by defense etc etc its very good reading. Better than getting opinions on some other sites whose arguments are more opinion based than evidence based.

    [link]
    (Will, 30 January 2008 16:15)

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  10. Will,
    If you have to ask why the Allies abandoned the Chetniks, you should find out something about the British Communist traitor who worked for the British SOE, James Klugman, who worked to doctor reports to the detriment of Chetniks and even attributing Chetnik actions to their Communist rivals, Tito's Partizans, so much so that even Chetnik operations were attributed to the Partizans by the BBC duringthe War. Let us also not forget that Tito tried to make a deal of collaboration with Hitler in 1943, although that took several decades before becoming public knowledge - imagine the amount of Allied support that the Communists would have received if this had been widely know at the time.

    Also, you might read this book for further research into the subject:
    [link]

    I would also like to comment that, before he died, Djujic withdrew his backing of Seselj because of the latter's association with (the Communist) Milosevic.
    (Stevo, 30 January 2008 13:05)

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  11. MICHAEL SAYS :...I am proud of our royalty and the Royal Army which stood against the onslaught of Nazi Germany in WW2.

    MICHAEL, do not forget the FACT that your Serb Chetniks were with NAZIS. This is a fact and nobody can change it.
    (Afrim Hoxha, 30 January 2008 08:42)

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  12. It never ceases to amaze me how Serbs, especially those here are always quick to call others "fascists".

    If ever there was a nation of people with fascist tendencies then its surely the Serbs themselves.

    Afterall we know that Serbs in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia persecuted other nationalities. For example the assassination of Croat leader, Stjepan Radic and others in the Yugoslav parliament. This is why Yugoslavia quickly broke apart upon the Germans arriving.

    The Serbs were also quick to collaborate with the Germans as this was shown with the rule of Nazi Serb quisling Milan Nedic. Most Serbs like to pretend this never happened.

    The attrocities of the Royalist Chetniks in WW2 shows that people like Djuic were more interested in killing Bosniaks in Eastern Bosnia and Croats in Northern Dalmatia than in actually fighting the German-Italian occupiers of "their" precious so-called Kingdom. These crimes is what made the Allies instead side with communist Tito.

    Then take into account the wars inflicted during the 90s against Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo in which "Ethnic Cleansing" became common practise wherever Serbian soldiers arrived .... eg Vukovar, Srebrenica, etc, etc.

    Then to top it off, things haven't changed much when Serbs only a week ago showed strong support for presidential candiate, Tomislav Nikolic by voting 40% in favour of him and his "Greater Serbia" ideology which to this day and age he openly advocates as one of his main goals .....

    Enough proof as to who enjoys dabbling with fascist like ideology?

    No wonder Tomislav Nikolic and his Radicals are on a path to victory probably sooner rather than later .....
    (SinCity, 30 January 2008 03:16)

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  13. Wil,

    let me assure you that all the lies you have heard thus far are communist inspired fabrications - which the likes of the West accepted in their romance with Tito and to cover for their mistake - Churchill admitted himself that he had made a great blunder in removing support from the Chetnicks in 1943.

    This truth is already out - read Michael lees - Rape of Serbia.
    [link]

    The full explanation for this betrayal lay hidden, however, until the mid-1980s, when Lees was led to a cache of secret-service files mistakenly declassified. These files, along with his own war-time experience, allowed him to complete this tale of perfidy. Lees now believes that Winston Churchill's decision to abandon Mihailovic and throw support to Tito was largely the result of disinformation spread by British Communists, and sympathizers in the secret services and other agencies which endorsed the reports, and an enthusiastic recommendation of British officers who had been duped by Tito.

    The same misinformation that has been so effective in waging illegal wars just like 1999 or 2003!!!
    (Princip, UK, 30 January 2008 02:39)

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  14. This article is nothing new to people who felt the full brunt of chetniks during ww2. I just find it funny how serbs always refer to what cetniks did at start of war but dont refer to what they did during the majority of the war. Its why the allies abandoned them. Im glad the whole ww2 issue is coming out, whilst the ustasha crimes are documented and are not really denied, the chetnik ideology has not really been discussed that much. Im all for everything getting out.
    (Will, 30 January 2008 00:03)

    Good! I challenge all to bring hard evidence of the alledged atrocities committed by the Chetniks during WWII. Let's bring it all out on the table!

    ......I anticipate a whole lot of nonsense comments or nothing at all.

    The Chetniks were abandoned by the allies because of false OSS reports supplied by Britain's Communist spy in Cairo. A "gentleman" named Jack Klugman. It's a well documented account as well.
    (Likota, 30 January 2008 02:00)

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  15. b) Michael, don't forget your own dear collaborators like Nedić, Ljotić, Pećanac and the Chetniks that spent more time on fighting the real resistance, i.e. the Partisans, and non-Serbs throughout Yugoslavia than on engaging the fascist occupation forces and collaborators.
    (Al, 29 January 2008 21:21)

    Collaborators, fascists???

    Nadic, Pecanac and even Ljotic, could not come close to the likes of those who willingly aligned themselves with the Nazis and murdered hundreds of thousands of their Serb neighbors. Nedic chose to accomodate Hitler's need for a Serb governer, knowing that if he didn't do so, Pavelic would take his place. That, most likely, would have meant total annihilation of the Serb nation. Pecanac chose not to fight the Nazis based on the number of WWI Serbian casualties. For this, neither can be considered traitors of their nation. Even Ljotic had a role that was far, far less traitorous compared to that of the Communist movement which was in collaboration with the Ustasa regime from 1932. The partizans were a resistance only to the Yugoslav Crown, and nothing else. Mihailovic's Chetnik resistance had countless battles against the Germans and other quislings, most of which were accredited to the Partizans and based ONLY on their interpretation of WWII events. The anti-fascist story is just that.....a story that doesn't mean anything today. All those nations that fought along side Hitler in WWII are all members, or about to become members, of the EU. And, this is the "thanks" Serbia gets for being a loyal ally.....what a perverted and shameful place this EU must be.

    So, please, spare us the talk of anti-fascism and resistance or independence. Those terms lost its value and does not apply to anything associated to todays European new world order.
    (Likota, 30 January 2008 01:37)

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  16. This article is nothing new to people who felt the full brunt of chetniks during ww2. I just find it funny how serbs always refer to what cetniks did at start of war but dont refer to what they did during the majority of the war. Its why the allies abandoned them. Im glad the whole ww2 issue is coming out, whilst the ustasha crimes are documented and are not really denied, the chetnik ideology has not really been discussed that much. Im all for everything getting out.
    (Will, 30 January 2008 00:03)

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  17. So it's not just Albanians having romantic fantasies about a greater State hm!? I think it's a Balkans thing. Tradition ;-)
    (Trublloni, 29 January 2008 23:01)

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  18. Al, it was Serbia that resisted Nazi Germany, end of Story...what happened during the brutal occupation, set up by Nazi Germany is irrelevant. You are certainly not going to poison Serbia and her heroic battle against Hitler and perhaps your compatriots. It's was Churchill who stated Serbia had found its soul as Serbia resisted, fought and died, while the Croats, Bosniaks, and Albanians collaborated with a thunderous, "Seig Heil."

    Miholovic and Djurisic are Serbia heros...and I'd venture to suggest the 500 airmen rescued by the Chetniks during the bombing of the Romanian oil fields would agree..as this remains the single largest rescue of US Airmen in history...orchestrated and implimented by SERBS! Suggestive reading, "The Forgotten 500."
    (Michael, 29 January 2008 22:58)

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  19. Is this the best that the prosecution can suggest?

    "According to Tomic, Đujić was considered responsible for the deaths of 1800 non-Serbs in the Dinara region and was declared a war criminal after the war. "

    - Was this not during the second world war? To allege (based on communist fabricated archives) Đujić and his thoudsands of soldiers under his command in defending Yugoslavia and the legitamate Yugoslav government in exile (often labelled derogatorily Chetniks by Nazi sympethisers)- 1800 non-Serbs in Dalmatia were killed in clashes between waring sides? Not sure if Tomic is aware but while the war was being waged 700,000+ Serbs, Roma and Jews were being slaughetered in the most horrendous manner at the hands of the Croatian (Nazi Germany backed) Ustashe regime! If Đujić and his troops killed 1800 of these bloodthirsty, throat slitting murderers the only guilt against them is that they did not do more to stop the Genocide waged against all non-Croats in Dalmatia! This is shameful of the ICTY to put forth Tomic and his clearly communist fabricated bias to even present an argument that the late & heroic Đujić was a war criminal - shameful to say the least!

    As for being declared a war criminal - by whom? Could it be the dictatorial communist Tito regime? The same regime who labelled, kangaroo trialled, convicted of being a "war criminal" and murdered Draza Mihailovic - General of all Royalists (Chetniks) who was decorated by US President Truman “post mortem” during 1948 with the highest medal the the US could - Legion of Merit. Of course the US had betrayed Draza & the Chetniks and sided with the communists in the latter stage of the war and after courted the dictator Tito - guess we see that has continued in recent Balkan policy too!

    For those who want to read more of the truth about Draza as a starter ;
    [link]

    [link]

    I am proud to know the truth about the Chetniks and equally proud to know that my late Paternal Grandfather stood up for his life, family, King and country against the Nazi, fascist and Communist forces waging war in Yugoslavia. I will add that without the true freedom fighters of Yugoslavia such as Draza, Djurisic and Đujić there would have been very few Serbs left !
    (Princip,UK, 29 January 2008 21:38)

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  20. Thank God there weren't any fascist collaborators among Serbs, eh Michael?
    (Al, 29 January 2008 21:27)

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  21. a) Nice one, guida! I couldn't have put it better myself.
    b) Michael, don't forget your own dear collaborators like Nedić, Ljotić, Pećanac and the Chetniks that spent more time on fighting the real resistance, i.e. the Partisans, and non-Serbs throughout Yugoslavia than on engaging the fascist occupation forces and collaborators.
    (Al, 29 January 2008 21:21)

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  22. The number of Cetnik "victims" stated by the witness, is a perverse statement confusing the issue. Cetniks were protectors of all Yugoslav civilians who were threatened by Croatian, Muslim, Albanian nazi-ism and Communist terror. It just so happened that Serbs lived in all parts of the former Yugoslavia, even before Croatia and Bosnia ever became individual republics. The ustashe concentration camps for the Serbs alone (in the Independent State of Croatia which territory was comprised of todays territories of Croatia and B&H) can attest to this. It is estimated that 1.2 million (officially 750,000) Serbs were exterminated in the aforementioned nazi state.

    Furthermore,Cetnik "idiology"did not support exterminating civilians, only military adversaries such as ustashi & muslim SS personel. Prove of that is that there were never any civilian concetration camp on Serbian territory throughout Yugoslavia.

    Again, a feable attempt to tarnish the Ravna Gora movement based on insufficiant and/or distorted "facts". How pathetic and shameful!
    (Likota, 29 January 2008 20:57)

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  23. Oh, my god, is this the best the prosecutor in this reality show can produce? Some text written ideology from 41-42 ?

    This is getting more and more absurd...

    God luck prosecutor Dahl if that is your strongest evidence of Seseljs guilt...
    (Srboslav, 29 January 2008 20:32)

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  24. I am proud to have Pavle Djurisic's grandson as my KUME as I am proud of our royalty and the Royal Army which stood against the onslaught of Nazi Germany in WW2. Unfortunately, our dear neighbors, Croatia, Bosniaks, and Albanians sided with the Nazi Germany.

    Pavle Djurisic's memory will live on forever within the Serbian nation, a man who during the most brutal of wars stood against fascism, a defender of a Serbian Nation, a player in the ultimate destruction of Nazi Germany.
    (Michael, 29 January 2008 19:09)

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  25. you mean Seselj HAS Chetnik ideology

    that ideology didn't disappear
    (guida, 29 January 2008 18:22)

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