Four agreements signed during Kosovo talks round

What you're missing is that the Ahtisari Plan required Serbia to recognize an independent Republic of Kosovo. Belgrade has not done that.

The deal is a loss to both sides, for Serbia recognises Albania as ruler of Kosovo.
For Albania recognises that Serbia's enclaves are independent from Prishtina .
It is like ,a country (Serbia Mitrovica) in a country ( Albania Kosovo), in a country Republic of Serbia ( Belgrade).It will not please Serb's or Albanian's, Gypsies, or the rest of population.

I don't understand how the Brussels agreement is good for Serbia? (Kosovo getting its own telephone code, independent water, gas, electricity services, the shutting down of Serbian government institutions, Kosovo passports and licence plates given free access around Serbia, and a smile on Vucic's face every time he has to get a visa to go to Pristina). Am I missing anything? :S

The deal is a loss to both sides, for Serbia recognises Albania as ruler of Kosovo. For Albania recognises that Serbia's enclaves are independent from Prishtina
(sasa.p, 25 August 2015 22:45)

What both sides recognized was reality. But while Belgrade gave up on the rest of Kosovo years ago, this is quite the bitter pill for Pristina to swallow.

"They recognized us in a way" is a very telling statement by Thaci. If that's the best he can say, then Serbs don't have to really say much else here.

As was said on this site several months ago, the West has changed gears in who they support and to what degree.

Yesterday also showed that Pristina, who was given "independence" by the West, but with limited sovreignty, has now lost even more sovreignty. Mitrovica is effectively quasi-independent.

And it is predictable that each subsequent agreement with Serbia will lead to even more loss of sovreignty.

Influence in the region goes to those who grow their economies and help the West repel ISIS.

The page has turned.

We'll see what the future brings, but for now it's 5:0 and will soon be 6:0

Great, I'm so happy, we're all like best friends now. A few days ago dacic is ranting at our United Nations like some kind of whacked out Milosevic fascist - today Serbia is "European". Give me a friggen break!

There is only progress when the West exercises carrot and stick with the belgrade regime. That's the story.

What this deal recognizes is that Kosovo-Metohija is a special entity, one that is not currently under the jurisdiction of Serbia, but one that is not a country in any way. The Association of Serb Municipalities will be able to function separately from Pristina which will allow Serbs the conditions they need to survive, if Albanian terrorists do not sabotage this agreement which is what I predict they will do.

But the important thing everyone seems to be missing is that the Association as stated in the agreement will be allowed to be directly and openly financed by Serbia. And really that's all Serbia ever wanted. Even the biggest nationalists wouldn't want to finance all of Kosovo-Metohija. The welfare of Albanians would bankrupt Serbia.

As long as the Serb Orthodox Churches, Gazivoda and Trepca are protected, as long as 'kosovo' isn't allowed in the UN and as long as the Association is allowed to breathe without obstruction from any savages, this is a win for Serbia.

As long as the Serb Orthodox Churches, Gazivoda and Trepca are protected, as long as 'Kosovo' isn't allowed in the UN and as long as the Association is allowed to breathe without obstruction from any savages, this is a win for Serbia.
(Ari Gold, 26 August 2015 12:18)

You think its a win Albanians think its a win, but we must wait and see what it really means, not sure what you mean by Trepca or Gazivoda as these are control by central government, central government has the power to take it away and go to constitutional court.

But as long as you are happy Ari, who do not even live there. All you got is ability to fund them without hiding it still this will go in Serbian politicians pockets look at the show in B92 north robbery. Trepca will be owned by some UK or US company, and both Serbs and Albanians get the privilege to work for wages. Telecom will be sold to Austria or Germany, Electricity to Turk/US consortium. When they wake up, they have a border to pass to go to Serbia but if you feel like a winner great.

JCC will have four months to be established and then in 1 year review of implementation before declaring victory lets wait and see.

Yesterday also showed that Pristina, who was given "independence" by the West, but with limited sovreignty, has now lost even more sovreignty. Mitrovica is effectively quasi-independent.
We'll see what the future brings, but for now it's 5:0 and will soon be 6:0
(factman, 26 August 2015 14:06)

factman,

The Ahtisaari plan says that ALL of Kosova will be under the laws of the Republic of Kosova. Furthermore, those laws will be enforced by Police and Judiciary of Kosova.

factman: I think you can read between the lines. However, you may acknowledge this fact now or later. It is your choice, but you will ultimately recognize that Serbs living in Kosova must obey the laws of the Republic of Kosova. All things considered, I am acutely aware this fact makes you violently ill.

As far as keeping score is concerned, the only score that counts AND is internationally recognized by FIFA and UEFA is : Albania 10
Serbia (-2)

btw, It is mathematically impossible for Serbia to out score Albania on total points for the Euro 2016 qualifiers.

Have a nice day!

hahaha serbs make sound like they won something or even anything, you know exactly you can't enter EU without recognizing Kosovo in the future, and plus this agreement give Kosovo authorities power to establish the Kosovo law in the north, opening the bridge which mean Albanian going back to their houses :)

This is what Athasari plan already gave Serbs these rights:

What I am missing here?
(Atila, 25 August 2015 23:42)

Serbia was drunk and the West beat them to a buzzed feeling. Now they're able to see a blurred vision of reality and accept it, hence their uturn and acceptance of what is essentially the Ahtisari plan. They need one more beating to be completely sober and realize their delusions of ruling Kosova are over. Pretty soon when the EU chapters on Kosova are open they will be made to sign a peace agreement with Kosova, and later on 5-10 years before they are ready to enter the EU they will be made to remove Kosova from their constitution. The balkans can have progress after that.

Serbian Government's Office for Kosovo and Metohija Director Marko Djuric commented after the negotiations in Brussels today to say the outcome represented "a 5-0 victory for Serbia," while Kosovo Foreign Minister Hashim Thaci said that "Serbia in a way recognized Kosovo as an independent state."

So every side is happy, even the EU 'moderator' is happy, what else do you want?

They need one more beating to be completely sober and realize their delusions of ruling Kosova are over.
(j, 26 August 2015 02:43)

The only delusions ended yesterday were Albanian delusions of controlling the north and preventing Serbs from exercising minority rights which should be obvious for any civilized country but needs to be written down in numerous agreements for Albanians to be reminded of. Thaci lost everything he said he'd prevent yesterday. The agreement guarantees no Albanian presence in the north, an autonomous ZSO, no dismantling of the Peace Park and no direct control over Trepca and Gazivoda Hydropower. Even the delusion of Serbia recognizing Kosovo was downgraded to recognition "in a way".

Serbia is now the undisputed world leader in Kosovo independence recognition. 63% of Serbia says Kosovo is independent and Serbia is in these talks to give Kosovo everything it wants.

Annex III defines local government, decentralization and linkages to Belgrade. Article 3 of the Annexgives municipalities full and exclusive powers for local economic development, land use, urban regulation, public services and utilities, education, health care and social services, public housing,licensing local services and naming of streets. Article 4 gives Serb-majority municipalities “enhanced participatory rights in the appointment of Police Station Commander” and provides North Mitrovica with “extended” competencies for university education and a hospital.

What I am missing here?
(Atila, 25 August 2015 23:42)


You're not missing anything at all, my friend. It is the Serbs that have their heads buried in the sand.
What the Serbs dread is their only protection will be that provided by the Republic of Kosova, since no Serb military or police are allowed in Kosova. However, our Serbs will have nothing to fear unless, of course, they break Albanian law. As a matter of fact, Kosova Serbs will be safer now because North Mitrovica will be purged of undercover MUP thugs by a heavy and constant presence of professional Kosova police, most of whom will be Albanian and be led by an Albanian chief of police, all this according to the Ahtisaari plan.

(factman, 26 August 2015 14:06)
The celebrations of Serbs is so hilarious. The Albanians had to agree to this in 2008 after Ahtissaari proposed it in 2007 in order to get support for their DOI from the US and the west.
At the time Serbia said absolutely no way.
Now we are 7 years later and many struggles and Serbs think they have won something. Pristina has surrendered nothing that they did not do in 2008 with the exception of keeping the bridge as a pedestrian crossing only. But traffick has been restricted on that bridge since 1999 and especially since 2004.
It is a big win for both sides as far as the EU goes. But a win over each other, not even close.

(Kosovo_Polje1389, 26 August 2015 13:51)

I don't recall anything being agreed as far as passports go. As far as calling codes, it's not really a big deal. Taiwan has its own calling code, if China can allow that, Serbia can too. Also Republika Srpska has unofficially used +384 for some of its numbers.

Serbia should never been seen as trying to infringe on the lives of Albanians. The KLA are running their community beautifully IMO. Ordinary Albanians who are not criminals are taking desperate measures to leave, even more than Serbs in the enclaves who live in constant danger.

My prediction: if the savages don't obstruct this agreement, Serbia will be able to finance these 10 municipalities to be the most economically prosperous in Kosovo-Metohija.

This is what Athasari plan already gave Serbs these rights:

The Plan’s Annexesexpand on these - Annex I (Article 8.3) gives municipalities the right to local sources of revenue and (8.4)
to “inter-municipal and cross-border cooperation in the areas of their own and enhanced competencies.”
Annex II (Article 4) provides communities the right to express, maintain and develop their language and culture; receive pre-school, primary and secondary public education in their own language; establish and
maintain their own private schools (with public financing); display community symbols; and have their
own media (including TV). Annex I (Article 1.6) provides for the ability to maintain dual citizenship.
Annex III defines local government, decentralization and linkages to Belgrade. Article 3 of the Annexgives municipalities full and exclusive powers for local economic development, land use, urban regulation, public services and utilities, education, health care and social services, public housing,licensing local services and naming of streets. Article 4 gives Serb-majority municipalities “enhanced participatory rights in the appointment of Police Station Commander” and provides North Mitrovica with “extended” competencies for university education and a hospital.

What I am missing here?

Sretan agree key element beyond detail - Implementation - which thus far maximum is enforced on Serbia for little in return.

I have to say my suspicion is that this is all staged and Vucic is in essence collaborating with EU masters who drip drip drip the charade of "neutral" talks that are far from neutral in objective. Simultaneously now talk of general elections - and the final piece slots in. Charade of neutral talks coming to agreement, chapters open, General full election quickly follow before the reality of what was signed or how any of it is to be implemented can be understood by all whom it affects.

Great, I'm so happy, we're all like best friends now. A few days ago dacic is ranting at our United Nations like some kind of whacked out Milosevic fascist - today Serbia is "European". Give me a friggen break!

There is only progress when the West exercises carrot and stick with the belgrade regime. That's the story.
(roberto, 26 August 2015 05:12)

The only clear thing that I understood from your comment is that you're wanting a "friggen break" again.
Most losers in your present mental state ask for a double shot of whiskey.

P.S.And what is this bs "dacic is ranting at 'OUR' United Nations"???LOL
P.S.S. You should change your moniker to "Uljizica*". Or "Grand Uljizica", if you still want to pass yourself off as a hot-blooded Latino.

* Sycophant

My prediction: if the savages don't obstruct this agreement, Serbia will be able to finance these 10 municipalities to be the most economically prosperous in Kosovo-Metohija.
(Ari Gold, 26 August 2015 15:47)
Your biggest problem is twofold, the criminals that have controlled the north for 16 years, and how long do you think that Serbs in Serbia would allow for the funds to flow to create a better lifestyle than they have?

Guys,

Independence without sovereignty is not really independence.

Yesterday revealed the limits of that sovereignty.

See link for ZSO:
http://eeas.europa.eu/statements-eeas/docs/150825_02_association-community-of-serb-majority-municipalities-in-kosovo-general-principles-main-elements_en.pdf

Haradinaj is angry and Self Determination are planning protests. It's clear who won and who lost. So much for Albanian boasting.

KUDOS to the govt of Kosovo for stepping up and delivering broad protection and rights to its minority Serb population instead of being like the Serbian regime to them when they were a minority of Serbia.

Guys,

ZSO is a legal entity with its own flag, composed of civil servants with executive powers to decide ALL local affairs a dpower to reject any directive from Pristina that they consider to not be in their interest. This goes beyond what Ahtisaari wrote.

Additionally, the connections and linkages to BG are stronger and without limitation to purpose of financing, nor is it taxable.

This is a very high degree of autonomy/ quasi independence for the ZSO... and another hit to Pristina's sovereignty.

Venton Surroi wrote about this today in the Kosovo press and the Serbo-Croatian version is here:
http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2015&mm=08&dd=27&nav_category=640&nav_id=1032125

In addition, BG will seek to water down that sovereignty even more in upcoming negotiations -- especially the one that deals with "who owns what" in Kosovo.

Reading these comments is hilarious. "Independence without sovereignty is not really independence." You're too cute. You think the Kosovars care what is on paper? They have total de facto control of Kosovo, and the Serbs are out of luck. You will NEVER regain control of Kosovo without military intervention, and NATO will NEVER allow that. The world is already well aware of dangers of the Serbian "military" (aka thugs that murder civilians and then run away like cowards when faced with an actual organized army). Typical comment from "factman", a guy that trolls these comment boards all day with nothing better to do while living his delusional dream of Greater Serbia. Serbia can barely be called a functional country. Believe me, there is nothing great about it. Losing Kosovo is justice from your crimes in the 1990s. Deal with it, live with it, ask forgiveness and maybe Europe will let you in in 30 years.

icj1,

You are little moste than a propagandist.

Show me one news story that says Serbian children cant be fed properly. You lie.

Serbia is the most economically consequential country in the Balkans simply due to Corridor 10.
- It borders 8 countries
- 14 countries are within an 8 hour drive
- Those 14 countries represent a market of 65 million people

It is understood that Serbia will be a corporate hub for larger economies seeking to sell to South Central Europe. Tesla Airport is predicted to become the regional hub for South Central Europe.

Yes, K will benefit from those remittances. Amd its going to need it. The little economy it has is tied up in litigation. Remittances from abroad will never be what they once were especially from Greece and W. Europe. It must import food. It has no Tourist sector. It has no industry. The Nis- Pristina highway will probably be most notable for the goods that will be travelling south. Not much will he heading North of except return traffic.

It doesnt take much mathematical calculation to figure out which way the wind is blowing.

You should stay out of economics and stick to splitting legal hairs. Thats what you're good at.

Independence without sovereignty is not independence. Last week that sovreignty was watered down.... again.

Tomislav,

Everything you say is wrong.

PS: Independnce without sovereignty is not real independence.

You should stay out of economics and stick to splitting legal hairs. Thats what you're good at.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Of course, I'm leaving the economics to you lol You are such a genious at it, especially after we lost the CE of B92 forums sj it looks like we finally got a replacement haha
----------

Independence without sovereignty is not independence.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

I have no idea what the above means, but anyway, the meaning is irrelevant. Kosovo is OK with that (whatever it means for you) vs where it was prior to 1999... So not sure what your point is
----------

Last week that sovreignty was watered down.... again.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Yup, I agree. Serbia's sovreignty was watered down again last week.

P.S. CE = Chief Economist

Tomislav,

Everything you say is wrong.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:42)

Lol, typical childish posts by our dear Mr/Ms factman!

What Mr/Ms factman says is true because... well, because Mr/Ms factman says so. There is no need for evidence, logical reasoning etc etc. Mr/Ms factman's word is the word of God and should be trusted lol

@factman

Bro, you can make a career out of comedy. By your assessment, Serbia is on track to become the new Switzerland. Hahahahaha. If you're not making jokes then you are totally delusional. Have you ever even been to Serbia? Even going from Croatia to Serbia is like taking a time machine to the past, much less the difference between any western state and Serbia. Tesla airport will be a regional hub? For what? Potato transport? There is NO economy there, friend, and Zagreb is expanding it's export too. I think people would rather opt for the EU airport in the region, rather than the mafia state airport. The problem with people that make arguments like yourself is their inflated sense of self worth and unreasonable national pride. Objectively, Serbia is behind so many countries in just about every social and economic indicator, not to mention its atrocious human rights record. Get a grip on reality my friend. You don't catch up to someone ahead of you in a race by running slower than he is.

We still have to see the full text to know what was agreed upon.
And even longer time to see what, if anything, will be implemented.
From experience, we know that West demanded everything we agreed to be carried to the letter, while nothing that was their obligation was carried out at all. Let alone putting some pressure on their proxies to live up to the agreements...
We'll see.

(factman, 26 August 2015 21:01)
It looks like a general municipal or county government charter in the US, with references to Kosovo law vs State and Federal laws here, and insert of Serbia.
But cities in US can enter into cooperation agreements with municipalities of other nations. I just participated in a visit of Russian leaders from a sister city in Russia to my home city here.
I don't really see anything unusual. Everything in it is subject to Kosovo law, meaning they cannot pass any laws that run counter to the laws of Kosovo.

Haradinaj is angry and Self Determination are planning protests. It's clear who won and who lost. So much for Albanian boasting.
(Navi, 26 August 2015 20:16)
Don't know about Haradinaj, but Self Determination protested UNMIK, EULEX, OSCE, Kfor, any international officials, organizations, or control over Kosovo. It has protested the elected govt of Kosovo, allowing Serbs to remain in Kosovo, and probably at some point it has protested the fact that Kosovo and Serbia are in the same time zone.
Don't know how you can come up with its a win for Serbia because they are going to protest it.
As a matter of fact if you ever get up and find out that the Self Determination is not protesting, you need to check further and see if the Apocalypse has come.

Kosova* is like when your child grows up and leaves home. It's still your child but you don't have to feed and clothe it anymore. You get my drift?

P.S. F*** the EU.

* Stillborn
(Rezoljush 1244, 27 August 2015 02:52)
Actually Kosovo/Kosova is more like a child that was removed from custody of its abusive parents by legal authorities and allowed to grow up under protection of a higher authority.
Yes Kosovo will always be known as a former part (or child) of Serbia and Serbia will always be known to have been so abusive to a section of its country and citizens that the UNSC took the unprecedented step of severing that part and making it a UN protectorate.
Now just like that grown up child of abusive parents, Kosovo never has to lie in bed afraid of its parents ever raising a hand to it again.

Additionally, the connections and linkages to BG are stronger and without limitation to purpose of financing, nor is it taxable.
(factman, 28 August 2015 05:47)

Of course and that is great for Kosovo to have funds flowing from Serbia to Kosovo to help Kosovo's economic development - I hope the impoverished citizens of Serbia who will pay for that with their taxes would not mind about Kosovo getting their money while Serbia's children can't be properly fed.
----------

In addition, BG will seek to water down that sovereignty even more in upcoming negotiations -- especially the one that deals with "who owns what" in Kosovo.
(factman, 28 August 2015 05:47)

of course, BG might also seek to make the Sun rise in the direction of West, it does not mean it will achieve it lol

icj1,

You are little moste than a propagandist.

Show me one news story that says Serbian children cant be fed properly. You lie.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Well, we don't need to go far... Just check B92 for a start.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2012&mm=11&dd=20&nav_id=83245
http://www6.b92.net/mobilni/eng/index.php?nav_id=81391
sorry to shatter your dreams of economic grandeur
---------

Serbia is the most economically consequential country in the Balkans
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Irrelevant... "economically consequential" does not mean that a country is not poor. China is much more "economically consequential" than, say, Qatar. Still China is much poorer than Qatar.
----------

It is understood that Serbia will be a corporate hub for larger economies seeking to sell to South Central Europe. Tesla Airport is predicted to become the regional hub for South Central Europe.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Sure, understood by you. Nobody is disputing that. There are many hallucinations that you understand lol
----------

It doesnt take much mathematical calculation to figure out which way the wind is blowing.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Of course, weather models and computers are good at doing the math and predicting wind direction these days...

Guys,

Independence without sovereignty is not really independence.

Yesterday revealed the limits of that sovereignty.

See link for ZSO:
[link]
(factman, 26 August 2015 21:01

what is it different from this in decentralisation of Ahtisaari plan:

http://www.unosek.org/unosek/en/statusproposal.html

hahaha serbs make sound like they won something or even anything, you know exactly you can't enter EU without recognizing Kosovo in the future, and plus this agreement give Kosovo authorities power to establish the Kosovo law in the north, opening the bridge which mean Albanian going back to their houses :)
(eric, 26 August 2015 16:26)


As long as y'all ain't UN independent and some other suckers are feeding you, Serbia is Kosovo and then some.
Kosova* is like when your child grows up and leaves home. It's still your child but you don't have to feed and clothe it anymore. You get my drift?

P.S. F*** the EU.

* Stillborn

Guys,

Independence without sovereignty is not really independence.

Yesterday revealed the limits of that sovereignty.

See link for ZSO:
[link]
(factman, 26 August 2015 21:01)

Are you sure you intended to provide the link above? Just to confirm because if you actually read the document at the link above it reveals the Kosovo is sovereign in regards to the ZSO because it says as foreseen by "Kosovo Law" and any dispute will be resolved by Kosovo's Courts:

"The Association/Community will have the right to initiate or parcipate in proceedings before the competent Courts, including to the Constitutional Court,against any acts or decisions from any institution affecting the exercise by the Association/Community of its powers in accordance with its Statute"

"Sovereign" in English mean "ultimate power" and it looks very much the ultimate power is Kosovo's since the agreement does not say, for example, that an appeal can be filed with the Serbia's courts!

But don't get me wrong... If you want to feel happy for the agreement, by all means you should. It is good when all parties involved are happy because it means this agreement is a win-win situation.

PS: Independnce without sovereignty is not real independence.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:42)
You may want to rethink this statement. Serbia claims Kosovo as its province, but yet Serbia has not had ANY sovereignty over Kosovo since June 1999, does that mean that you do not consider Serbia an independent country??

That to me signifies a drop in sovereignty. Would you not agree?

And with each negotiation one sees another compromise (each of which add an incremental loss of sovereignty over what existed the prior day).

Is this not Self Determination's stance?
(factman, 31 August 2015 21:37)
The Kosovo issue has always been complex, the goal has always been that for a win, it had to be a place where neither side was allowed to be able to oppress the other. Now that is exactly what would have happened if following the 1999 intervention Kosovo was handed to the Albanians, there was too much resentment and desire for revenge. This is what Ahtisaari envisioned, the only way for it to work with an overwhelming majority of people who still harbor much ill feelings against the minority was to grant broad powers and autonomy to the minority.
So if you mean "sovereignty" to mean total Albanian control then yes it has been cut. The hope is that eventually by the two having to cooperate it will eventually prove to be a good situation. It will take a long time and there will be many set backs.
As far as the self determination, they are purely an ethnic hate group that is interested in one thing only and that is an Albanian pure society, they are no better than Milosevic and his hench men, but like in Serbia today I believe they are a huge minority.

Is it me, or has our favorite pseudo cyber-activist and wannabe journalist lost all ability at making sense anymore?

The only delusions ended yesterday were Albanian delusions of controlling the north and preventing Serbs from exercising minority rights which should be obvious for any civilized country but needs to be written down in numerous agreements for Albanians to be reminded of. Thaci lost everything he said he'd prevent yesterday. The agreement guarantees no Albanian presence in the north, an autonomous ZSO, no dismantling of the Peace Park and no direct control over Trepca and Gazivoda Hydropower. Even the delusion of Serbia recognizing Kosovo was downgraded to recognition "in a way".

-- You have to believe in Serbian unicorns to buy the crap you wrote above. Albanians made their peace with all of what you say when the signed on to Ahtisari's plan. Serbs discovered the Ahtisari plan yesterday and what a glorious victory was for them, just like in the 1400 century. As always the Serbs have this neourosis where every few years they have to declare themselves victorious otherwise they go nuts.

P.S Serbia will not recognize Kosova formally in 5-10 decades, if ever. It will be made to erase Kosova from any constitutional document and sign a peace agreement with Kosova and stopped from lobbying against Kosova's participation in international institutions. The West is making sure Putin's hand doesn't reach this part of Europe. They don't want another Ukraine-like military operations from Serbia in the Balkans. Hence the peace agreement.

Tomislav:

Here are links to various articles showing Tesla Airport and Air Serbia's remarkable growth.

THE EUROPEAN
http://the-european.eu/story-8437/air-serbias-unique-business-class-experience.html

CENTER FOR AVIATION
http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/belgrade-airport-with-resurgent-air-serbia-challenged-the-hub-order-in-centralsoutheast-europe-213774

AIRLINE REPORTER
http://www.airlinereporter.com/2015/06/business-class-reimagined-why-air-serbia-is-the-one-to-beat-in-europe/

REUTERS
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/08/us-serbia-airport-idUSKBN0NT1IO20150508

TRANSPORT JOURNAL (commercial cargo)
http://www.transportjournal.com/en/home/news/artikeldetail/freight-contributes-to-air-serbia-s-growth.html

AIRLINERS
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6165299/

icj1,


"What Mr/Ms factman says is true because... well, because Mr/Ms factman says so."

#


The problem with you is you never provide support for your statements. And when you do, that which you supply is shallow (which you use for propaganda).

CHILDHOOD POVERTY

This article needs to be put into perspective.

1. It's 3 years old and the economic situation in Serbia has improved.

2. The number presented is in a vacuum. 400k is not that much for a country of 7.5M.

2. This counts IDP's and refugees. That's not a proper measure. Strip out 250k refugees from Croatia. Another 225k from Kosovo. And the 100k Mitrovica residents (575k people). These are anomalies that skew the data. Of that 575k, lets say 20% are children. That is 120k children that should be deducted leaving us 280k children. When compared to other countries in the region (or even western countries), this is on par (and not abnormal).

3. The CIA and the World Bank provide better measurements and placed into perspective.

According to the URL below Serbia ranks 16 in the world for the lowest incidence of poverty. And according to the World Bank, they rank 45th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty

That means your original statement is faulty and cannot be supported by the data.

Please stick to splitting legal hairs, that's what you are good at.

For factman , Romania is more developed than Serbia as gdp per capita , minimum wage , average wage , economical grow up , and you need even 24 hours for pass only Romania !

All roads and money in Balkans lead to Bucharest

2016 Romania gdp per capita double than Serbia gdp per capita

=> those are the real facts .

The airport it bring under 500 miliosn euro = > nothing

Serbia a country where minimum wage is under 200 euro even in the year 2016 ! and unemployment 20%

Tomislav i agree with you

i have nothing against Serbia , just i have to spank sometimes factman because 1 time at 10 years he forget THE PLACE !

Think about it,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

It's a great question.

In all honesty, I don't know how to answer it?

In any event, I see a fairly autonomous entity was created in an independent K and that S is allowed to finance it and develop it. While that entity must abide by K law, it appears it can also challenge and circumvent it.

That to me signifies a drop in sovereignty. Would you not agree?

And with each negotiation one sees another compromise (each of which add an incremental loss of sovereignty over what existed the prior day).

Is this not Self Determination's stance?

The problem with you is you never provide support for your statements. And when you do, that which you supply is shallow (which you use for propaganda).
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Examples?
----------

1. It's 3 years old and the economic situation in Serbia has improved.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Evidence?
----------

2. The number presented is in a vacuum. 400k is not that much for a country of 7.5M.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Really? If we count as children those of age 0-14, that would be more than 1/3 of them!
----------

2. This counts IDP's and refugees. That's not a proper measure.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Why?
----------


3. The CIA and the World Bank provide better measurements and placed into perspective.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

OMG! CIA?! That's heresy for the most patriotic of Serbs :)
----------

According to the URL below Serbia ranks 16 in the world for the lowest incidence of poverty.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Define "lowest incidence of poverty"...
----------

That means your original statement is faulty and cannot be supported by the data.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Which statement of mine is faulty and not supported by data and where did you show that it is faulty?!
----------

Please stick to splitting legal hairs, that's what you are good at.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Of course since it's succesful for rejecting most of the trash your write lol

Adrian, if that the best you can claim after Serbia being u der samctions for 20 years, you better start getting worried :)

Think about it, Thanks for the input. As usual, much agreement. Let us see where the next round of negotiations keave K sovereignty,

icj1, My sources and evidence is more than enough. You lose.

Annex III defines local government, decentralization and linkages to Belgrade. Article 3 of the Annexgives municipalities full and exclusive powers for local economic development, land use, urban regulation, public services and utilities, education, health care and social services, public housing,licensing local services and naming of streets. Article 4 gives Serb-majority municipalities “enhanced participatory rights in the appointment of Police Station Commander” and provides North Mitrovica with “extended” competencies for university education and a hospital.

What I am missing here?
(Atila, 25 August 2015 23:42)


You're not missing anything at all, my friend. It is the Serbs that have their heads buried in the sand.
What the Serbs dread is their only protection will be that provided by the Republic of Kosova, since no Serb military or police are allowed in Kosova. However, our Serbs will have nothing to fear unless, of course, they break Albanian law. As a matter of fact, Kosova Serbs will be safer now because North Mitrovica will be purged of undercover MUP thugs by a heavy and constant presence of professional Kosova police, most of whom will be Albanian and be led by an Albanian chief of police, all this according to the Ahtisaari plan.

What this deal recognizes is that Kosovo-Metohija is a special entity, one that is not currently under the jurisdiction of Serbia, but one that is not a country in any way. The Association of Serb Municipalities will be able to function separately from Pristina which will allow Serbs the conditions they need to survive, if Albanian terrorists do not sabotage this agreement which is what I predict they will do.

But the important thing everyone seems to be missing is that the Association as stated in the agreement will be allowed to be directly and openly financed by Serbia. And really that's all Serbia ever wanted. Even the biggest nationalists wouldn't want to finance all of Kosovo-Metohija. The welfare of Albanians would bankrupt Serbia.

As long as the Serb Orthodox Churches, Gazivoda and Trepca are protected, as long as 'kosovo' isn't allowed in the UN and as long as the Association is allowed to breathe without obstruction from any savages, this is a win for Serbia.

Great, I'm so happy, we're all like best friends now. A few days ago dacic is ranting at our United Nations like some kind of whacked out Milosevic fascist - today Serbia is "European". Give me a friggen break!

There is only progress when the West exercises carrot and stick with the belgrade regime. That's the story.

(Kosovo_Polje1389, 26 August 2015 13:51)

I don't recall anything being agreed as far as passports go. As far as calling codes, it's not really a big deal. Taiwan has its own calling code, if China can allow that, Serbia can too. Also Republika Srpska has unofficially used +384 for some of its numbers.

Serbia should never been seen as trying to infringe on the lives of Albanians. The KLA are running their community beautifully IMO. Ordinary Albanians who are not criminals are taking desperate measures to leave, even more than Serbs in the enclaves who live in constant danger.

My prediction: if the savages don't obstruct this agreement, Serbia will be able to finance these 10 municipalities to be the most economically prosperous in Kosovo-Metohija.

Serbia is now the undisputed world leader in Kosovo independence recognition. 63% of Serbia says Kosovo is independent and Serbia is in these talks to give Kosovo everything it wants.

This is what Athasari plan already gave Serbs these rights:

What I am missing here?
(Atila, 25 August 2015 23:42)

Serbia was drunk and the West beat them to a buzzed feeling. Now they're able to see a blurred vision of reality and accept it, hence their uturn and acceptance of what is essentially the Ahtisari plan. They need one more beating to be completely sober and realize their delusions of ruling Kosova are over. Pretty soon when the EU chapters on Kosova are open they will be made to sign a peace agreement with Kosova, and later on 5-10 years before they are ready to enter the EU they will be made to remove Kosova from their constitution. The balkans can have progress after that.

"They recognized us in a way" is a very telling statement by Thaci. If that's the best he can say, then Serbs don't have to really say much else here.

As was said on this site several months ago, the West has changed gears in who they support and to what degree.

Yesterday also showed that Pristina, who was given "independence" by the West, but with limited sovreignty, has now lost even more sovreignty. Mitrovica is effectively quasi-independent.

And it is predictable that each subsequent agreement with Serbia will lead to even more loss of sovreignty.

Influence in the region goes to those who grow their economies and help the West repel ISIS.

The page has turned.

We'll see what the future brings, but for now it's 5:0 and will soon be 6:0

The deal is a loss to both sides, for Serbia recognises Albania as ruler of Kosovo. For Albania recognises that Serbia's enclaves are independent from Prishtina
(sasa.p, 25 August 2015 22:45)

What both sides recognized was reality. But while Belgrade gave up on the rest of Kosovo years ago, this is quite the bitter pill for Pristina to swallow.

hahaha serbs make sound like they won something or even anything, you know exactly you can't enter EU without recognizing Kosovo in the future, and plus this agreement give Kosovo authorities power to establish the Kosovo law in the north, opening the bridge which mean Albanian going back to their houses :)

Yesterday also showed that Pristina, who was given "independence" by the West, but with limited sovreignty, has now lost even more sovreignty. Mitrovica is effectively quasi-independent.
We'll see what the future brings, but for now it's 5:0 and will soon be 6:0
(factman, 26 August 2015 14:06)

factman,

The Ahtisaari plan says that ALL of Kosova will be under the laws of the Republic of Kosova. Furthermore, those laws will be enforced by Police and Judiciary of Kosova.

factman: I think you can read between the lines. However, you may acknowledge this fact now or later. It is your choice, but you will ultimately recognize that Serbs living in Kosova must obey the laws of the Republic of Kosova. All things considered, I am acutely aware this fact makes you violently ill.

As far as keeping score is concerned, the only score that counts AND is internationally recognized by FIFA and UEFA is : Albania 10
Serbia (-2)

btw, It is mathematically impossible for Serbia to out score Albania on total points for the Euro 2016 qualifiers.

Have a nice day!

They need one more beating to be completely sober and realize their delusions of ruling Kosova are over.
(j, 26 August 2015 02:43)

The only delusions ended yesterday were Albanian delusions of controlling the north and preventing Serbs from exercising minority rights which should be obvious for any civilized country but needs to be written down in numerous agreements for Albanians to be reminded of. Thaci lost everything he said he'd prevent yesterday. The agreement guarantees no Albanian presence in the north, an autonomous ZSO, no dismantling of the Peace Park and no direct control over Trepca and Gazivoda Hydropower. Even the delusion of Serbia recognizing Kosovo was downgraded to recognition "in a way".

Great, I'm so happy, we're all like best friends now. A few days ago dacic is ranting at our United Nations like some kind of whacked out Milosevic fascist - today Serbia is "European". Give me a friggen break!

There is only progress when the West exercises carrot and stick with the belgrade regime. That's the story.
(roberto, 26 August 2015 05:12)

The only clear thing that I understood from your comment is that you're wanting a "friggen break" again.
Most losers in your present mental state ask for a double shot of whiskey.

P.S.And what is this bs "dacic is ranting at 'OUR' United Nations"???LOL
P.S.S. You should change your moniker to "Uljizica*". Or "Grand Uljizica", if you still want to pass yourself off as a hot-blooded Latino.

* Sycophant

The deal is a loss to both sides, for Serbia recognises Albania as ruler of Kosovo.
For Albania recognises that Serbia's enclaves are independent from Prishtina .
It is like ,a country (Serbia Mitrovica) in a country ( Albania Kosovo), in a country Republic of Serbia ( Belgrade).It will not please Serb's or Albanian's, Gypsies, or the rest of population.

I don't understand how the Brussels agreement is good for Serbia? (Kosovo getting its own telephone code, independent water, gas, electricity services, the shutting down of Serbian government institutions, Kosovo passports and licence plates given free access around Serbia, and a smile on Vucic's face every time he has to get a visa to go to Pristina). Am I missing anything? :S

Guys,

Independence without sovereignty is not really independence.

Yesterday revealed the limits of that sovereignty.

See link for ZSO:
http://eeas.europa.eu/statements-eeas/docs/150825_02_association-community-of-serb-majority-municipalities-in-kosovo-general-principles-main-elements_en.pdf

This is what Athasari plan already gave Serbs these rights:

The Plan’s Annexesexpand on these - Annex I (Article 8.3) gives municipalities the right to local sources of revenue and (8.4)
to “inter-municipal and cross-border cooperation in the areas of their own and enhanced competencies.”
Annex II (Article 4) provides communities the right to express, maintain and develop their language and culture; receive pre-school, primary and secondary public education in their own language; establish and
maintain their own private schools (with public financing); display community symbols; and have their
own media (including TV). Annex I (Article 1.6) provides for the ability to maintain dual citizenship.
Annex III defines local government, decentralization and linkages to Belgrade. Article 3 of the Annexgives municipalities full and exclusive powers for local economic development, land use, urban regulation, public services and utilities, education, health care and social services, public housing,licensing local services and naming of streets. Article 4 gives Serb-majority municipalities “enhanced participatory rights in the appointment of Police Station Commander” and provides North Mitrovica with “extended” competencies for university education and a hospital.

What I am missing here?

Haradinaj is angry and Self Determination are planning protests. It's clear who won and who lost. So much for Albanian boasting.

Is it me, or has our favorite pseudo cyber-activist and wannabe journalist lost all ability at making sense anymore?

hahaha serbs make sound like they won something or even anything, you know exactly you can't enter EU without recognizing Kosovo in the future, and plus this agreement give Kosovo authorities power to establish the Kosovo law in the north, opening the bridge which mean Albanian going back to their houses :)
(eric, 26 August 2015 16:26)


As long as y'all ain't UN independent and some other suckers are feeding you, Serbia is Kosovo and then some.
Kosova* is like when your child grows up and leaves home. It's still your child but you don't have to feed and clothe it anymore. You get my drift?

P.S. F*** the EU.

* Stillborn

What you're missing is that the Ahtisari Plan required Serbia to recognize an independent Republic of Kosovo. Belgrade has not done that.

We still have to see the full text to know what was agreed upon.
And even longer time to see what, if anything, will be implemented.
From experience, we know that West demanded everything we agreed to be carried to the letter, while nothing that was their obligation was carried out at all. Let alone putting some pressure on their proxies to live up to the agreements...
We'll see.

As long as the Serb Orthodox Churches, Gazivoda and Trepca are protected, as long as 'Kosovo' isn't allowed in the UN and as long as the Association is allowed to breathe without obstruction from any savages, this is a win for Serbia.
(Ari Gold, 26 August 2015 12:18)

You think its a win Albanians think its a win, but we must wait and see what it really means, not sure what you mean by Trepca or Gazivoda as these are control by central government, central government has the power to take it away and go to constitutional court.

But as long as you are happy Ari, who do not even live there. All you got is ability to fund them without hiding it still this will go in Serbian politicians pockets look at the show in B92 north robbery. Trepca will be owned by some UK or US company, and both Serbs and Albanians get the privilege to work for wages. Telecom will be sold to Austria or Germany, Electricity to Turk/US consortium. When they wake up, they have a border to pass to go to Serbia but if you feel like a winner great.

JCC will have four months to be established and then in 1 year review of implementation before declaring victory lets wait and see.

Guys,

ZSO is a legal entity with its own flag, composed of civil servants with executive powers to decide ALL local affairs a dpower to reject any directive from Pristina that they consider to not be in their interest. This goes beyond what Ahtisaari wrote.

Additionally, the connections and linkages to BG are stronger and without limitation to purpose of financing, nor is it taxable.

This is a very high degree of autonomy/ quasi independence for the ZSO... and another hit to Pristina's sovereignty.

Venton Surroi wrote about this today in the Kosovo press and the Serbo-Croatian version is here:
http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2015&mm=08&dd=27&nav_category=640&nav_id=1032125

In addition, BG will seek to water down that sovereignty even more in upcoming negotiations -- especially the one that deals with "who owns what" in Kosovo.

Reading these comments is hilarious. "Independence without sovereignty is not really independence." You're too cute. You think the Kosovars care what is on paper? They have total de facto control of Kosovo, and the Serbs are out of luck. You will NEVER regain control of Kosovo without military intervention, and NATO will NEVER allow that. The world is already well aware of dangers of the Serbian "military" (aka thugs that murder civilians and then run away like cowards when faced with an actual organized army). Typical comment from "factman", a guy that trolls these comment boards all day with nothing better to do while living his delusional dream of Greater Serbia. Serbia can barely be called a functional country. Believe me, there is nothing great about it. Losing Kosovo is justice from your crimes in the 1990s. Deal with it, live with it, ask forgiveness and maybe Europe will let you in in 30 years.

icj1,

You are little moste than a propagandist.

Show me one news story that says Serbian children cant be fed properly. You lie.

Serbia is the most economically consequential country in the Balkans simply due to Corridor 10.
- It borders 8 countries
- 14 countries are within an 8 hour drive
- Those 14 countries represent a market of 65 million people

It is understood that Serbia will be a corporate hub for larger economies seeking to sell to South Central Europe. Tesla Airport is predicted to become the regional hub for South Central Europe.

Yes, K will benefit from those remittances. Amd its going to need it. The little economy it has is tied up in litigation. Remittances from abroad will never be what they once were especially from Greece and W. Europe. It must import food. It has no Tourist sector. It has no industry. The Nis- Pristina highway will probably be most notable for the goods that will be travelling south. Not much will he heading North of except return traffic.

It doesnt take much mathematical calculation to figure out which way the wind is blowing.

You should stay out of economics and stick to splitting legal hairs. Thats what you're good at.

Independence without sovereignty is not independence. Last week that sovreignty was watered down.... again.

Tomislav,

Everything you say is wrong.

PS: Independnce without sovereignty is not real independence.

(factman, 26 August 2015 14:06)
The celebrations of Serbs is so hilarious. The Albanians had to agree to this in 2008 after Ahtissaari proposed it in 2007 in order to get support for their DOI from the US and the west.
At the time Serbia said absolutely no way.
Now we are 7 years later and many struggles and Serbs think they have won something. Pristina has surrendered nothing that they did not do in 2008 with the exception of keeping the bridge as a pedestrian crossing only. But traffick has been restricted on that bridge since 1999 and especially since 2004.
It is a big win for both sides as far as the EU goes. But a win over each other, not even close.

Kosova* is like when your child grows up and leaves home. It's still your child but you don't have to feed and clothe it anymore. You get my drift?

P.S. F*** the EU.

* Stillborn
(Rezoljush 1244, 27 August 2015 02:52)
Actually Kosovo/Kosova is more like a child that was removed from custody of its abusive parents by legal authorities and allowed to grow up under protection of a higher authority.
Yes Kosovo will always be known as a former part (or child) of Serbia and Serbia will always be known to have been so abusive to a section of its country and citizens that the UNSC took the unprecedented step of severing that part and making it a UN protectorate.
Now just like that grown up child of abusive parents, Kosovo never has to lie in bed afraid of its parents ever raising a hand to it again.

KUDOS to the govt of Kosovo for stepping up and delivering broad protection and rights to its minority Serb population instead of being like the Serbian regime to them when they were a minority of Serbia.

My prediction: if the savages don't obstruct this agreement, Serbia will be able to finance these 10 municipalities to be the most economically prosperous in Kosovo-Metohija.
(Ari Gold, 26 August 2015 15:47)
Your biggest problem is twofold, the criminals that have controlled the north for 16 years, and how long do you think that Serbs in Serbia would allow for the funds to flow to create a better lifestyle than they have?

Guys,

Independence without sovereignty is not really independence.

Yesterday revealed the limits of that sovereignty.

See link for ZSO:
[link]
(factman, 26 August 2015 21:01)

Are you sure you intended to provide the link above? Just to confirm because if you actually read the document at the link above it reveals the Kosovo is sovereign in regards to the ZSO because it says as foreseen by "Kosovo Law" and any dispute will be resolved by Kosovo's Courts:

"The Association/Community will have the right to initiate or parcipate in proceedings before the competent Courts, including to the Constitutional Court,against any acts or decisions from any institution affecting the exercise by the Association/Community of its powers in accordance with its Statute"

"Sovereign" in English mean "ultimate power" and it looks very much the ultimate power is Kosovo's since the agreement does not say, for example, that an appeal can be filed with the Serbia's courts!

But don't get me wrong... If you want to feel happy for the agreement, by all means you should. It is good when all parties involved are happy because it means this agreement is a win-win situation.

Additionally, the connections and linkages to BG are stronger and without limitation to purpose of financing, nor is it taxable.
(factman, 28 August 2015 05:47)

Of course and that is great for Kosovo to have funds flowing from Serbia to Kosovo to help Kosovo's economic development - I hope the impoverished citizens of Serbia who will pay for that with their taxes would not mind about Kosovo getting their money while Serbia's children can't be properly fed.
----------

In addition, BG will seek to water down that sovereignty even more in upcoming negotiations -- especially the one that deals with "who owns what" in Kosovo.
(factman, 28 August 2015 05:47)

of course, BG might also seek to make the Sun rise in the direction of West, it does not mean it will achieve it lol

Tomislav:

Here are links to various articles showing Tesla Airport and Air Serbia's remarkable growth.

THE EUROPEAN
http://the-european.eu/story-8437/air-serbias-unique-business-class-experience.html

CENTER FOR AVIATION
http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/belgrade-airport-with-resurgent-air-serbia-challenged-the-hub-order-in-centralsoutheast-europe-213774

AIRLINE REPORTER
http://www.airlinereporter.com/2015/06/business-class-reimagined-why-air-serbia-is-the-one-to-beat-in-europe/

REUTERS
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/08/us-serbia-airport-idUSKBN0NT1IO20150508

TRANSPORT JOURNAL (commercial cargo)
http://www.transportjournal.com/en/home/news/artikeldetail/freight-contributes-to-air-serbia-s-growth.html

AIRLINERS
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6165299/

icj1,


"What Mr/Ms factman says is true because... well, because Mr/Ms factman says so."

#


The problem with you is you never provide support for your statements. And when you do, that which you supply is shallow (which you use for propaganda).

CHILDHOOD POVERTY

This article needs to be put into perspective.

1. It's 3 years old and the economic situation in Serbia has improved.

2. The number presented is in a vacuum. 400k is not that much for a country of 7.5M.

2. This counts IDP's and refugees. That's not a proper measure. Strip out 250k refugees from Croatia. Another 225k from Kosovo. And the 100k Mitrovica residents (575k people). These are anomalies that skew the data. Of that 575k, lets say 20% are children. That is 120k children that should be deducted leaving us 280k children. When compared to other countries in the region (or even western countries), this is on par (and not abnormal).

3. The CIA and the World Bank provide better measurements and placed into perspective.

According to the URL below Serbia ranks 16 in the world for the lowest incidence of poverty. And according to the World Bank, they rank 45th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty

That means your original statement is faulty and cannot be supported by the data.

Please stick to splitting legal hairs, that's what you are good at.

Sretan agree key element beyond detail - Implementation - which thus far maximum is enforced on Serbia for little in return.

I have to say my suspicion is that this is all staged and Vucic is in essence collaborating with EU masters who drip drip drip the charade of "neutral" talks that are far from neutral in objective. Simultaneously now talk of general elections - and the final piece slots in. Charade of neutral talks coming to agreement, chapters open, General full election quickly follow before the reality of what was signed or how any of it is to be implemented can be understood by all whom it affects.

The only delusions ended yesterday were Albanian delusions of controlling the north and preventing Serbs from exercising minority rights which should be obvious for any civilized country but needs to be written down in numerous agreements for Albanians to be reminded of. Thaci lost everything he said he'd prevent yesterday. The agreement guarantees no Albanian presence in the north, an autonomous ZSO, no dismantling of the Peace Park and no direct control over Trepca and Gazivoda Hydropower. Even the delusion of Serbia recognizing Kosovo was downgraded to recognition "in a way".

-- You have to believe in Serbian unicorns to buy the crap you wrote above. Albanians made their peace with all of what you say when the signed on to Ahtisari's plan. Serbs discovered the Ahtisari plan yesterday and what a glorious victory was for them, just like in the 1400 century. As always the Serbs have this neourosis where every few years they have to declare themselves victorious otherwise they go nuts.

P.S Serbia will not recognize Kosova formally in 5-10 decades, if ever. It will be made to erase Kosova from any constitutional document and sign a peace agreement with Kosova and stopped from lobbying against Kosova's participation in international institutions. The West is making sure Putin's hand doesn't reach this part of Europe. They don't want another Ukraine-like military operations from Serbia in the Balkans. Hence the peace agreement.

You should stay out of economics and stick to splitting legal hairs. Thats what you're good at.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Of course, I'm leaving the economics to you lol You are such a genious at it, especially after we lost the CE of B92 forums sj it looks like we finally got a replacement haha
----------

Independence without sovereignty is not independence.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

I have no idea what the above means, but anyway, the meaning is irrelevant. Kosovo is OK with that (whatever it means for you) vs where it was prior to 1999... So not sure what your point is
----------

Last week that sovreignty was watered down.... again.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Yup, I agree. Serbia's sovreignty was watered down again last week.

P.S. CE = Chief Economist

Tomislav,

Everything you say is wrong.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:42)

Lol, typical childish posts by our dear Mr/Ms factman!

What Mr/Ms factman says is true because... well, because Mr/Ms factman says so. There is no need for evidence, logical reasoning etc etc. Mr/Ms factman's word is the word of God and should be trusted lol

@factman

Bro, you can make a career out of comedy. By your assessment, Serbia is on track to become the new Switzerland. Hahahahaha. If you're not making jokes then you are totally delusional. Have you ever even been to Serbia? Even going from Croatia to Serbia is like taking a time machine to the past, much less the difference between any western state and Serbia. Tesla airport will be a regional hub? For what? Potato transport? There is NO economy there, friend, and Zagreb is expanding it's export too. I think people would rather opt for the EU airport in the region, rather than the mafia state airport. The problem with people that make arguments like yourself is their inflated sense of self worth and unreasonable national pride. Objectively, Serbia is behind so many countries in just about every social and economic indicator, not to mention its atrocious human rights record. Get a grip on reality my friend. You don't catch up to someone ahead of you in a race by running slower than he is.

PS: Independnce without sovereignty is not real independence.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:42)
You may want to rethink this statement. Serbia claims Kosovo as its province, but yet Serbia has not had ANY sovereignty over Kosovo since June 1999, does that mean that you do not consider Serbia an independent country??

Think about it,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

It's a great question.

In all honesty, I don't know how to answer it?

In any event, I see a fairly autonomous entity was created in an independent K and that S is allowed to finance it and develop it. While that entity must abide by K law, it appears it can also challenge and circumvent it.

That to me signifies a drop in sovereignty. Would you not agree?

And with each negotiation one sees another compromise (each of which add an incremental loss of sovereignty over what existed the prior day).

Is this not Self Determination's stance?

Serbian Government's Office for Kosovo and Metohija Director Marko Djuric commented after the negotiations in Brussels today to say the outcome represented "a 5-0 victory for Serbia," while Kosovo Foreign Minister Hashim Thaci said that "Serbia in a way recognized Kosovo as an independent state."

So every side is happy, even the EU 'moderator' is happy, what else do you want?

Guys,

Independence without sovereignty is not really independence.

Yesterday revealed the limits of that sovereignty.

See link for ZSO:
[link]
(factman, 26 August 2015 21:01

what is it different from this in decentralisation of Ahtisaari plan:

http://www.unosek.org/unosek/en/statusproposal.html

(factman, 26 August 2015 21:01)
It looks like a general municipal or county government charter in the US, with references to Kosovo law vs State and Federal laws here, and insert of Serbia.
But cities in US can enter into cooperation agreements with municipalities of other nations. I just participated in a visit of Russian leaders from a sister city in Russia to my home city here.
I don't really see anything unusual. Everything in it is subject to Kosovo law, meaning they cannot pass any laws that run counter to the laws of Kosovo.

Haradinaj is angry and Self Determination are planning protests. It's clear who won and who lost. So much for Albanian boasting.
(Navi, 26 August 2015 20:16)
Don't know about Haradinaj, but Self Determination protested UNMIK, EULEX, OSCE, Kfor, any international officials, organizations, or control over Kosovo. It has protested the elected govt of Kosovo, allowing Serbs to remain in Kosovo, and probably at some point it has protested the fact that Kosovo and Serbia are in the same time zone.
Don't know how you can come up with its a win for Serbia because they are going to protest it.
As a matter of fact if you ever get up and find out that the Self Determination is not protesting, you need to check further and see if the Apocalypse has come.

icj1,

You are little moste than a propagandist.

Show me one news story that says Serbian children cant be fed properly. You lie.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Well, we don't need to go far... Just check B92 for a start.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2012&mm=11&dd=20&nav_id=83245
http://www6.b92.net/mobilni/eng/index.php?nav_id=81391
sorry to shatter your dreams of economic grandeur
---------

Serbia is the most economically consequential country in the Balkans
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Irrelevant... "economically consequential" does not mean that a country is not poor. China is much more "economically consequential" than, say, Qatar. Still China is much poorer than Qatar.
----------

It is understood that Serbia will be a corporate hub for larger economies seeking to sell to South Central Europe. Tesla Airport is predicted to become the regional hub for South Central Europe.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Sure, understood by you. Nobody is disputing that. There are many hallucinations that you understand lol
----------

It doesnt take much mathematical calculation to figure out which way the wind is blowing.
(factman, 30 August 2015 00:38)

Of course, weather models and computers are good at doing the math and predicting wind direction these days...

That to me signifies a drop in sovereignty. Would you not agree?

And with each negotiation one sees another compromise (each of which add an incremental loss of sovereignty over what existed the prior day).

Is this not Self Determination's stance?
(factman, 31 August 2015 21:37)
The Kosovo issue has always been complex, the goal has always been that for a win, it had to be a place where neither side was allowed to be able to oppress the other. Now that is exactly what would have happened if following the 1999 intervention Kosovo was handed to the Albanians, there was too much resentment and desire for revenge. This is what Ahtisaari envisioned, the only way for it to work with an overwhelming majority of people who still harbor much ill feelings against the minority was to grant broad powers and autonomy to the minority.
So if you mean "sovereignty" to mean total Albanian control then yes it has been cut. The hope is that eventually by the two having to cooperate it will eventually prove to be a good situation. It will take a long time and there will be many set backs.
As far as the self determination, they are purely an ethnic hate group that is interested in one thing only and that is an Albanian pure society, they are no better than Milosevic and his hench men, but like in Serbia today I believe they are a huge minority.

For factman , Romania is more developed than Serbia as gdp per capita , minimum wage , average wage , economical grow up , and you need even 24 hours for pass only Romania !

All roads and money in Balkans lead to Bucharest

2016 Romania gdp per capita double than Serbia gdp per capita

=> those are the real facts .

The airport it bring under 500 miliosn euro = > nothing

Serbia a country where minimum wage is under 200 euro even in the year 2016 ! and unemployment 20%

Tomislav i agree with you

i have nothing against Serbia , just i have to spank sometimes factman because 1 time at 10 years he forget THE PLACE !

The problem with you is you never provide support for your statements. And when you do, that which you supply is shallow (which you use for propaganda).
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Examples?
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1. It's 3 years old and the economic situation in Serbia has improved.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Evidence?
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2. The number presented is in a vacuum. 400k is not that much for a country of 7.5M.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Really? If we count as children those of age 0-14, that would be more than 1/3 of them!
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2. This counts IDP's and refugees. That's not a proper measure.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Why?
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3. The CIA and the World Bank provide better measurements and placed into perspective.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

OMG! CIA?! That's heresy for the most patriotic of Serbs :)
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According to the URL below Serbia ranks 16 in the world for the lowest incidence of poverty.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Define "lowest incidence of poverty"...
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That means your original statement is faulty and cannot be supported by the data.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Which statement of mine is faulty and not supported by data and where did you show that it is faulty?!
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Please stick to splitting legal hairs, that's what you are good at.
(factman, 31 August 2015 19:56)

Of course since it's succesful for rejecting most of the trash your write lol

Adrian, if that the best you can claim after Serbia being u der samctions for 20 years, you better start getting worried :)

Think about it, Thanks for the input. As usual, much agreement. Let us see where the next round of negotiations keave K sovereignty,

icj1, My sources and evidence is more than enough. You lose.