U.S. official in Belgrade for meetings with party leaders

Like I've said my friends, and please don't shoot the messenger, but the end goal is to have an SNS/DS government. What I've been attempting to figure out are what steps this needs to take. Essentially, there are three steps:

1. We expected initial talks between the DS and SPS but we would need the SPS to back-stab the DS (at least in the public light) for the next step to occur. It is more complicated than that but to the public, that's the way it looks.

2. Now that step 1. is complete, we have started talks between the SNS and SPS with all looking promising so far. The SNS are very accommodating while the SPS looks in control. However, we can see lots of mud being flung at the SPS and I expect this to continue to the point where the SNS turn around and say, hey, we've been very generous but you Dacic... you are one dirty character! (this is where we are now).

3. Once Dacic is made to look like the greedy bad guy and the public believe this, they will finally accept an SNS/DS government as the last alternative. In that case, many powerful countries (i.e. the occupiers) will be happy.

Like I've said before, the DSS and SPS are not favourable parties to the North Atlantic alliance. We are going through the motions of forming an SNS/DS government.

Talk about interfering in the internal affairs of a country. What the hell have the Americans done for us to come here telling us who is to form our govt. We have tried to be cooperative, but just get insulted. Love America, hate the state dept. And a couple of 100 million bucks just doesnt give them any influence whatsoever. Pocket change, and they know it. Respect is a two way street.

Since America loves to send officials to countries to "influence" governments, can we send some people to Washington to lobby for Ron Paul?

I like the formation of the future government… their ideas on how to govern the state are great. It is unfortunate Kostunica is not participating
US! stay out!!!

You know what the carrot is for Serbia in all this?
(Cupi, 3 July 2012 10:50)
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You mean, where the carrot is leading? Of course... Why do you think they want the two largest parties to form a government? A big government to make big changes, such as the Serbian constitution...

Kostunica protected Serbia's interests and that's why he is disliked. Dacic looks after his own interests and is not very controllable. That's why he is disliked. Tadic and Nikolic have made their deals and they will get backing.

Ecoman, sorry I don't agree with your views. I support the DSS as they remain true to their cause even at the expense of losing popularity.

He comes with a clear message: "You either do what we say, or else we will campaiign against you". As if Serbia were a Latin American country during the Cold War.

One should tell the American administration what year it is and where is Serbia, cause it ain't the Cold War and Serbia is not in Latin America.
So mr. Reeker better be coming with advices and possible investment opportunities, rather than lobbying tasks.

Sending Reeker to lobby for a grand coalition is a breach of sovereignty. It is clear that the US administration disapproves a government in which former Milosevic associates will be holding positions, but hey... democracy is a Russian roulette. The Americans should have thought about it earlier when they were supporting Tadic who revitalized Milosevic's party. Now, it's a bit late now to fight his "legacy" when you were assisting it for the last four years by turning a blind eye.

I am not a big Hillary fan, or either of the Clinton duo, but I must go along with their desire of who should be in the ruling coalition government in Serbia. Dacic, and his made-to-order socialist party, would be a disaster for Serbia. He is old school Milosevic, no matter how many times he tries and change his coat. I cannot believe that there still are Serbs that give these old socialists votes. Did you people have your eyes open during the 90's? In any case, the best of all the evils we have in Serbia would be the SNS and DS, they both suck, sorry for the term, but that would be the best combination. The West likes dealing with Tadic, and the majority Serbs, for whatever reason, think that Nikolic will clean stuff up (he could start with his own party and partners). Jesus, what a mess Serbian political leadership is. The old die hards just won't let go. The corruption is at the very top, and works it's way down to the custodians and clean up ladies. I dislike seeing foreign powers meddling in Serbian politics, but when left to our own devices, look at what the hell we come up with again? Happy 4th of July to all my US diaspora fellows. The USA can be a tough place at times too, and I hate some of the actions they have taken over the years, aka Kosovo intervention, Iraq war, Afghanistan, kissing Saudi asses, etc., but it's still a beacon of hope for people that know the place.

Zoran you don't have to take an exclusively external view - you are living inside Serbia, internal factors are of great importance and are lacking in your theorising.

1 For example you neglect to mention Dacic's naked ambition and complete desire to be Prime Minister. This is a capable politician (that isn't a compliment really) who felt he was a cruel victim of fate, and was utterly frustrated to be born 'in the wrong time' (ie to be rising in SPS at the end of the longest period of success the party will ever have). In other words following his appointment as SPS leader although he knew he could exercise power and be in government, he never believed he would be PM. He will do ANYTHING to grasp this opportunity.

2 There is no desire within SNS to call upon DS to join them in a government. And it is a fact that SNS has been very accommodating. It is also a fact that SPS has been greedy.

3 Again Dacic is being greedy, there is no doubt. This idea you are suggesting that he is some poor victim without any control over his situation is untrue. Dacic can decide his fate by his actions

Finally if the west didn't want SPS in power then why were they in the last government? After all according to you we in Serbia were occupied at that time.

So why do you repeatedly state that SPS can not be part of the next government? Makes no sense at all.

Having said that there is no doubt that US/EU will bring some pressure to bear. You watch while Dacic bends over to get what he wants.

The Yanks are afraid of Russian capital coming into Serbia, that's for sure.
Take a closer look: American companies came into Serbia, but very few are interested in making monumental investments. Some of them such as US Steel left after exhausting the local resources, some such as PMI have laid off workers making the investment worse off for Serbs, whereas NCR is profiting on youth labor while giving hilariously low wages.
On the other hand, Russians are interested for serious investments, thus making the Americans jealous, behaving if the manner "if I don't have it - and I don't really want it, then nobody can have it".
Now, it is up to Dacic to make a stance for the interest of his voters.

I just dont get why Reeker and Gordon are coming here at all. They know we are not terrorists so there is no risk to their security. If they had done to an islamic country what they had done to us, they wouldn't dare come. They have no credibility here and should just keep their noses out of our business. I mean its almost funny really, they (and the Germans, their brokeback chums) give cg accession talks as some kind of insult to us. Small minded and pathetic diplomacy. They don't give a damn about our concerns, show no respect and should be treated likewise. But I am sure they will come, and we will smile and shake hands and shoot the breeze, but really, leave us alone.

We should sue NATO for war reparations.

Finally DSS is a typical product of old fashioned Serbian politics - deeply hierarchical, party concentrated in the hands of single, life long leader and voted for mostly by males who are out of touch with contemporary society.

In any country such a party is doomed to the political margins until it reforms.
(bganon, 3 July 2012 14:59)
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Yeah yeah, that's why Serbia was prospering and in fact had the highest economic growth in Europe with the DSS at the reigns. That's why the occupiers found it difficult to maneuver with regard to KiM. Serbia had a backbone whilst Kostunica lead this country.

However, the more enlightened like yourself who voted for the DS in fact voted for economic catastrophe and the wholesale of Serbian sovereignty because they were young, modern and progressive. LOL! You are too academic my friend.

But I do agree to a point that the DSS need reforms with a changed political landscape. We need some new faces and new ideas while retaining the same principles. I think this process has already started.

This is quite interesting. This is the US openly admitting that they cannot force an SPS government to do what except by overt threats which is why they prefer a DS led government, one which they could influence with out all the public show with the DS making the usual excuses to serbian citizens.

Is this the US trying to save face so they don't have to show how aggressive and hypocritical they are in public?

And as I've also told you, it really helps being lucky enough to be in government when there isn't a major world recession going on. It really takes a while for you to get some things!

And remind me please of Kostunica's policy successes in Kosovo? What did his 'backbone' (harsh words) achieve exactly?
(bganon, 3 July 2012 18:26)
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Kostunica was at the head of the government and that includes responsibility for the economy. Dinkic reported to him so I am glad Kostunica kept him in line.

As for a major world recession, now that's as accurate as the "internationals" taking care of KiM. There are no "internationals" but rather western occupiers just like there is no world recession but rather one that hit western economies.

The economies of the BRICS and those aligned to them continued to grow. China had double digit growth, South America continued to grow, most of Asia continued to grow and even Australia benefited with growth.

If Tadic had no alternative to EU and that meant aligning our economy with a sinking Titanic and unilaterally implementing the SAA, which cost us €500 million, tripling our debt and asking the IMF for loans to keep an unproductive public sector floating, just so he didn't lose votes, well, what can I say? You made the same mistake twice when you voted!

As for KiM, maintaining the status quo is sometimes a good move. The enclaves had Serbian infrastructure while "independence" had many obstacles. Now what exactly did Tadic achieve?

I didn't like horney Clinton as americas president but I respected the will of the american people. I suggest they do the same. How can someone be in favour of democracy but against the will of the people?

Hope you are right, Zoran. I believe that Dacic is toxic for any coalition government in Serbia, His use date ended when Milosevic went to the Hague, and mama Milosevic took that midnight train to Georgia, or Russia, whatever. Serbian politics is about choosing the best of all evils. But there are some evils that should be done and gone, isn't that right Messrs. Dacic, Dinkic, and Kostunica?

Zoran the reason Kostunica is disliked isn't because he protected Serbia's interests. Its because he was ineffective and offered no solutions to Serbia's problems.

Additionally his party became obsessed with talking about the EU and Kosovo above all other policy issues - more of a protest party than one taken seriously by a substantial number of citizens. DSS was always national leaning, but they were not like that in the early 2000's.

Finally DSS is a typical product of old fashioned Serbian politics - deeply hierarchical, party concentrated in the hands of single, life long leader and voted for mostly by males who are out of touch with contemporary society.

In any country such a party is doomed to the political margins until it reforms.

An SNS, SPS, and URS Government as already agreed, and it not a matter of some unprincipled ambition, but because of a Safe and Wise Democratic Principle of Balance in the Process to Guarantee Democracy.

The SNS have the Presidency, and so for the Democratic Balance, the Prime Minister has to come from the SPS or the URS.

The SPS has 44 Mandates compared to a mere 16 for the URS, and there have been many unproven allegations of corruption against the Democratically Elected Honourable Leader of the URS, and so for all these reasons, a SNS, SPS, and URS Government would choose the Prime Minister from the ranks of the SPS.

The Democratically Elected Honourable Leader of the SPS has been a Deputy Prime Minister in the previous Government, and so has the experience to be Prime Minister.

We all know that the DS campaigned on the platform that the DS will form a Coalition with the SNS.

On 6/4/ 2012, B 92 said that “Coalition with SNS not realistic DS official says”; and on 4/6/ 2012, B 92 said that “SNS-DS alliance not realistic, says leader of Progressives”; and on 25/6/ 2012, B 92 said that “German Ambassador Wolfram Maas says the West is not calling for a government made up of the DS and SNS.”

America wants Election Promises to be broken, because America are not just Undemocratic, but, America is Antidemocratic Dictator, and they are Evil Busybodies in other Peoples’ Business in order to Murder, Destroy, Steal, and to Subjugate and Exploit Others.

The Election of January 2007, gave the DSS, the NS, and the SRS 128 mandates with a majority of 6 in Parliament.

The occupiers asked the DSS to form a Coalition with the DS and G 17 Plus, and the DSS thought that given the situation with the leader of SRS being in The Hague, and because Slobodan Milosevic had recently been in The Hague that it would be wise to form a Coalition with others.

Euro America was more Influential on the World Scene, and Serbia was much weaker Diplomatically, and they could easily yet unjustly demonize Serbia because of the SRS and the SPS.

The May 2008 Election gave the SRS, the DSS, the NS, and the SPS 127 Mandates with a majority of 4 in the Parliament, and Euro America preferred the SPS to the DSS and NS in 2008, because they did not want the DSS and NS at any time.

It would not surprize me in the slightest, if Euro America and the DS let the G 17 Plus do a good job with the Economy because they were Scheming an early Election, but the Global Economy was better at that time, and I do not think that the G 17 Plus was part of that Conspiracy to have Tadic and Company win an Election to give away Kosovo.

Euro America and the DS were planning the Unnecessary 2008 Election where the EU signed the SAA Agreement to help Tadic and Company win the Election in order to give away Kosovo.

Everyone knows that the DSS and the NS have done more to preserve Kosovo with the Partner for Peace Programme with NATO, and the Serbian Constitution.

Serbia hasn't shown any democratic tradition so far after the elections. It is absurd for the third-ranked party to come forward with PM. On the other hand, the US administration, the "beacon of democracy" sends its envoy to alter the will of the Serbian people. Now that's absurdity as well.
If the final outcome of this story is to have Dacic as PM, the Americans should respect it and take into consideration his statements that Serbia is committed to the path of European integration and close Euro-Atlantic cooperation. Unfortunately, the only thing I see happening if he becomes PM will be a smear campaign from the outside.

So now I really do not understand how long will it interfere in our politics SAD.

Finally if the west didn't want SPS in power then why were they in the last government? After all according to you we in Serbia were occupied at that time.

So why do you repeatedly state that SPS can not be part of the next government? Makes no sense at all.
(bganon, 3 July 2012 12:14)
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Why do you insist that I answer the obvious? Why was the SPS in the last government? Quite simple, they were the king makers and there was absolutely no chance the DS and SRS could form one. They were on completely different ends of the spectrum. Dacic was obviously convinced to form a government with the pro-EU DS. Like, it would be in his best interests!

I am not saying the SPS cannot be part of the next government. I am saying there are strong forces working against it. They don't need the SPS like last time. Nikolic and his new SNS party are on-board now (you know, the sinking ship).

We just need to go through the motions of convincing the public that an SNS/DS government is a good idea and the three steps below is how I think it will be done.

Zoran SPS did not have to be in the last government, they could have supported the government from the 'back benches', as they did with Kostunica. Obviously the 'occupiers' didn't want to stop them from being in government. And obviously the 'occupiers' didn't stop Kostunica from being in government either. Or then again perhaps they only occupy temporarily, in your mind at least. Yes if being academic means basing my opinions on fact and not on wild ideas about occupation by a hidden enemy you will not name, nor when you believe they began occupying, then yes I'm academic. And I'd rather be factual, than a conspiracy theorist.

How many times do I have to tell you that economics and finance in the Kostunica government was run by neo-liberal leaning G17 and Dinkic? You can't claim credit for Kostunica in that field when Dinkic was running things. Besides, nobody in Serbia will tell you that economics are the special field of DSS, they are far to focused on national issues.Its just the same by the way if Dacic was to carry out some successful police reform just now, it would not be success of DS, it would be Dacic's / SPS success - not that it would ever happen... And as I've also told you, it really helps being lucky enough to be in government when there isn't a major world recession going on. It really takes a while for you to get some things!

And remind me please of Kostunica's policy successes in Kosovo? What did his 'backbone' (harsh words) achieve exactly?

3. Once Dacic is made to look like the greedy bad guy and the public believe this, they will finally accept an SNS/DS government as the last alternative. In that case, many powerful countries (i.e. the occupiers) will be happy.

Like I've said before, the DSS and SPS are not favourable parties to the North Atlantic alliance. We are going through the motions of forming an SNS/DS government.
(Zoran, 3 July 2012 10:35)

You know what the carrot is for Serbia in all this?

"Meanwhile, other media in Belgrade are reporting that the actual reason for the visits is that the U.S. does not want to see Ivica Dačić in the office of prime minister. "

And the majority of the Serbs didn't want that, neither, because only a minority voted for his party.

Zoran if you think that Dinkic reported to Kostunica in government you have no idea of the workings of government in Serbia. I've been on the inside and each department is a law unto itself - reporting only to the party leader. The PM is a lame duck in a way and the only way the PM can get rid of a minister is if the minister's party leader agrees. Kostunica didn't keep Dinkic in line at all and Miskovic flourished under the Kostunica government (and not just because of eg G17 Bubalo, Port of Belgrade). Indeed one of the main reasons why Kostunica government came to an end was that he was being ignored / laughed at by blackmailing G17. Kostunica was fed up and dissolved it. Won't even bother mentioning the numerous dubious privatisations that went on in this period.

The new government - if it is ever formed, claims that this arrangement will be weakened somewhat by mixing up parties within ministries ie main minister from 1 party, state secretary from another. However, that may make for more chaotic government with underlings calling up their party bosses to complain about ministers and so on.

Yes the Kostunica government had amazing success on Kosovo - you are right, under their watch Kosovo Albanians declared independence!

And I do really get your point about the recession - after all Serbia is not affected when their main trading partners are the BRIC countries..... er hang on a minute... Great point!

Carry on the Kostunica worship though if it makes you feel better.

And I do really get your point about the recession - after all Serbia is not affected when their main trading partners are the BRIC countries..... er hang on a minute... Great point!

Carry on the Kostunica worship though if it makes you feel better.
(bganon, 4 July 2012 10:22)
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Aha, there was lots of BRIC funding ready for Serbia, create the project (mainly infrastructure) and the funding will be there. Problem being that Tadic burned his bridges with the BRICS as he saw no alternative to the EU. We all know how that turned out.

As for Kostunica, the economy was doing very well under his premiership so there was no need to criticise Dinkic. What you mention is just hypothetical. As for the Albanians declaring independence, wow!! They did it during Milosevic's rule also but they only made progress when your man Tadic took the reins. He made a huge mess of Serbia but who cares right? You'll keep voting for him because he represents a young, modern and progressive Serbia right? LOL!

"How can few hundred Serb MUP Agents prevent the will of the 2 mil people in Kosova?
Are we talking about the " Will of the people"?"

Agim Kelmendi

In that case the same thing should be applied to north Kosovo, Northern Epirus in south Albania, Republiak Srpska and Krajina. After all its the "will of the people". Yes or no?

On the other hand, Russians are interested for serious investments, thus making the Americans jealous, behaving if the manner "if I don't have it - and I don't really want it, then nobody can have it".
Now, it is up to Dacic to make a stance for the interest of his voters.
(Gerd, 3 July 2012 12:24)
At 51% controlling interest at a price of 20cents on the dollar, you are definitely right about Russian interest in making an investment in Serbia.
You forgot China who will loan you money at 10% interest to employee Chinese companies to work in Serbia.

"How can someone be in favour of democracy but against the will of the people?"
(MikeC, 3 July 2012 18:53)

The 'will of the people' is for you that Dacic (a person from the party which came out as only #3 in the election) becoming prime minister?

Since America loves to send officials to countries to "influence" governments, can we send some people to Washington to lobby for Ron Paul?
(Tit for Tat, 3 July 2012 15:56)

Sure, send them on over. Serbia lobbying for Ron Paul should properly end his already dead candidacy. Send Dacic!

bganon, if I may interfere in your dialogue with Zoran, the biggest success of the Kostunica government is the handing over of the people wanted by the Hague. It made it possible for the DS to only have to catch 3 people instead of 60, so Serbia fulfilled one of the main conditions to join the EU thanks in large part to Kostunica. Something he should take credit for. In her book, Carla Del Ponte speaks about him forcing or convincing these people to 'voluntarily' go to the Hague. However, there are no more people left to send to the Hague, so I don't see why would anybody vote for him.

"How can someone be in favour of democracy but against the will of the people?"
(MikeC, 3 July 2012 18:53)

How can few hundred Serb MUP Agents prevent the will of the 2 mil people in Kosova?
Are we talking about the " Will of the people"?

America has no legitimacy to advise Serbia what to do,they have attacked Serbia 13 years ago for its agenda for its interests to occupy Kosovo.
Only Serbs are those who decide on their future not others and Serbs have voted for change for a better future,their votes was for this government SNS-SPS against the loser party of America DS,America see your job do not worry about us,if Serbia should ask someone then this is only mother Russia no one else.

Because he likes Beograde (LOL).More likely to interfere in Serbia's internal affairs.So much for the USA respecting the FREE VOTES of the Serbian people.They don't like the results of a DEMOCRATIC VOTE so they want to add there WORTHLESS two cents.Serbs refuse to give in to the NEW WORLD ORDER and it is PI**ing of the Americans...G O O D !

Reader quite droll. The point is correct though, Kostunica did agree to hand over Milosevic to what Zoran calls the 'NATO' court. Quite heroic and principled of him I do agree.

And later as you point out they patriotically handed over a number of suspected war criminals to proceed on the path of European integration with the goal of eventual membership of the EU. This included the signing / initialling of the SAA agreement in 2007, which Kostunica led and supported, then later did a U turn (or as they say in the US flip flopped).

Its quite a joke really that Kostunica has had no success on the issues that people claim to support him on and that in government he has often done the opposite of what he claims today to support.

Those are yet more reasons why he is languishing in the political wilderness today.

Here is the correct secret US cable comparing Tadic to Kostunica. Check -> http://wikileaks.org/cable/2006/09/06BELGRADE1407.html#

War Crimes
-----------

7. (S) Tadic will be more receptive to messages on ICTY
cooperation than Kostunica. Tadic openly calls for Mladic's
arrest and appears committed to real action in bringing him
and the other fugitives to justice. From the beginning of
his term in office, Tadic recognized the importance of ICTY
cooperation, whereas Kostunica has only reluctantly been
cornered into taking on the ICTY issue (when he became PM in
2004, he stated that ICTY cooperation was not a priority).

2. (S) Tadic tends to take a more realist, pro-Western tack
than the prime minister on major issues. In contrast with
Kostunica, Tadic attaches more importance to U.S.-Serbian
relations; he privately accepts the reality of Kosovo's
independence and is focused on "the day after;" he openly
calls for Mladic's arrest; and he publicly supports Serbia's
membership in NATO.

4. (S) Tadic is perhaps the best interlocutor we have to
manage the Kosovo endgame...

11. (S) In sum, despite his shortcomings as a leader, Tadic
will be a much more receptive interlocutor during his visit
than the Prime Minister, especially on the major questions of
Kosovo, ICTY and mil-mil cooperation.

The problem is that the West made the stick bigger than the carrot and the carrot -EU membership- is rotten anyway.

Agim- how can 50 eulex and kla deny the will of 80000 Serbs?

Reader quite droll. The point is correct though, Kostunica did agree to hand over Milosevic to what Zoran calls the 'NATO' court. Quite heroic and principled of him I do agree.
(bganon, 4 July 2012 10:38)
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For an apparent "insider" why do you make up stories to justify your claims? Djindjic paid with his life for illegally handing over/kidnapping Milosevic.

Now this secret US cable -> http://wikileaks.org/reldate/2011-08-30_0.html# disproves everything you and Reader have to say. But hey, you can keep making up stories instead of accepting the truth. You know, ego is the greatest deception.

BTW, I can easily find others to further disprove what you say. Julian Assange has done wonders to clear up the lies coming from certain corners.

Zoran how does anything you quoted in that cable contradict what I wrote? The facts are there for all to see - Kostunica behaved one way in government and advocated a different policy later on. What stories did I make up? Those in your imagination perhaps?

BRIC funding for Serbia? I'm talking about trade, not funding. You can't just shoot for the stars and decide 'oh we will go with BRIC' tomorrow. It takes years of organic and organised trade with countries to get to a stage when you can seriously consider going with a rival organisation. Not that BRIC is an organisation, or currently an alternative to the EU. The alternative to the EU would be an independent trade policy and may have next to no impact on trade balance with BRIC countries.

'Djindjic paid with his life for illegally handing over/kidnapping Milosevic' - another meaningless statement in the context of our discussion. Was there a point to it?

You people and your BRICS country bs. Exactly what is BRICS, It is a group of ememrging countries that have met occasionally that have similar interests. They have not set up a charter they really do not have trade agreements etc etc. They exchange ideas and discuss similar interests. You would have to be an emerging economy to join their group(Certainly none of you see Serbia in that category.) One day it may become a more organized group and start taking on charities but that is a big step, remember Russia and China are part of the triangle they tend to come together against the US, but they are in no way ready to put on the pajamas for bed.
For all those that say you should drop the west and align yourself with the BRICS, have you gotten an invitation in your mailbox yet??

I'm only opposed to Dinkic and his ilk being in government. Anything but them.

I am not a big Hillary fan, or either of the Clinton duo, but I must go along with their desire of who should be in the ruling coalition government in Serbia. Dacic, and his made-to-order socialist party, would be a disaster for Serbia. He is old school Milosevic, no matter how many times he tries and change his coat. I cannot believe that there still are Serbs that give these old socialists votes. Did you people have your eyes open during the 90's? In any case, the best of all the evils we have in Serbia would be the SNS and DS, they both suck, sorry for the term, but that would be the best combination. The West likes dealing with Tadic, and the majority Serbs, for whatever reason, think that Nikolic will clean stuff up (he could start with his own party and partners). Jesus, what a mess Serbian political leadership is. The old die hards just won't let go. The corruption is at the very top, and works it's way down to the custodians and clean up ladies. I dislike seeing foreign powers meddling in Serbian politics, but when left to our own devices, look at what the hell we come up with again? Happy 4th of July to all my US diaspora fellows. The USA can be a tough place at times too, and I hate some of the actions they have taken over the years, aka Kosovo intervention, Iraq war, Afghanistan, kissing Saudi asses, etc., but it's still a beacon of hope for people that know the place.

Hope you are right, Zoran. I believe that Dacic is toxic for any coalition government in Serbia, His use date ended when Milosevic went to the Hague, and mama Milosevic took that midnight train to Georgia, or Russia, whatever. Serbian politics is about choosing the best of all evils. But there are some evils that should be done and gone, isn't that right Messrs. Dacic, Dinkic, and Kostunica?

Zoran the reason Kostunica is disliked isn't because he protected Serbia's interests. Its because he was ineffective and offered no solutions to Serbia's problems.

Additionally his party became obsessed with talking about the EU and Kosovo above all other policy issues - more of a protest party than one taken seriously by a substantial number of citizens. DSS was always national leaning, but they were not like that in the early 2000's.

Finally DSS is a typical product of old fashioned Serbian politics - deeply hierarchical, party concentrated in the hands of single, life long leader and voted for mostly by males who are out of touch with contemporary society.

In any country such a party is doomed to the political margins until it reforms.

Talk about interfering in the internal affairs of a country. What the hell have the Americans done for us to come here telling us who is to form our govt. We have tried to be cooperative, but just get insulted. Love America, hate the state dept. And a couple of 100 million bucks just doesnt give them any influence whatsoever. Pocket change, and they know it. Respect is a two way street.

Since America loves to send officials to countries to "influence" governments, can we send some people to Washington to lobby for Ron Paul?
(Tit for Tat, 3 July 2012 15:56)

Sure, send them on over. Serbia lobbying for Ron Paul should properly end his already dead candidacy. Send Dacic!

You know what the carrot is for Serbia in all this?
(Cupi, 3 July 2012 10:50)
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You mean, where the carrot is leading? Of course... Why do you think they want the two largest parties to form a government? A big government to make big changes, such as the Serbian constitution...

Kostunica protected Serbia's interests and that's why he is disliked. Dacic looks after his own interests and is not very controllable. That's why he is disliked. Tadic and Nikolic have made their deals and they will get backing.

Ecoman, sorry I don't agree with your views. I support the DSS as they remain true to their cause even at the expense of losing popularity.

Zoran you don't have to take an exclusively external view - you are living inside Serbia, internal factors are of great importance and are lacking in your theorising.

1 For example you neglect to mention Dacic's naked ambition and complete desire to be Prime Minister. This is a capable politician (that isn't a compliment really) who felt he was a cruel victim of fate, and was utterly frustrated to be born 'in the wrong time' (ie to be rising in SPS at the end of the longest period of success the party will ever have). In other words following his appointment as SPS leader although he knew he could exercise power and be in government, he never believed he would be PM. He will do ANYTHING to grasp this opportunity.

2 There is no desire within SNS to call upon DS to join them in a government. And it is a fact that SNS has been very accommodating. It is also a fact that SPS has been greedy.

3 Again Dacic is being greedy, there is no doubt. This idea you are suggesting that he is some poor victim without any control over his situation is untrue. Dacic can decide his fate by his actions

Finally if the west didn't want SPS in power then why were they in the last government? After all according to you we in Serbia were occupied at that time.

So why do you repeatedly state that SPS can not be part of the next government? Makes no sense at all.

Having said that there is no doubt that US/EU will bring some pressure to bear. You watch while Dacic bends over to get what he wants.

Finally DSS is a typical product of old fashioned Serbian politics - deeply hierarchical, party concentrated in the hands of single, life long leader and voted for mostly by males who are out of touch with contemporary society.

In any country such a party is doomed to the political margins until it reforms.
(bganon, 3 July 2012 14:59)
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Yeah yeah, that's why Serbia was prospering and in fact had the highest economic growth in Europe with the DSS at the reigns. That's why the occupiers found it difficult to maneuver with regard to KiM. Serbia had a backbone whilst Kostunica lead this country.

However, the more enlightened like yourself who voted for the DS in fact voted for economic catastrophe and the wholesale of Serbian sovereignty because they were young, modern and progressive. LOL! You are too academic my friend.

But I do agree to a point that the DSS need reforms with a changed political landscape. We need some new faces and new ideas while retaining the same principles. I think this process has already started.

Finally if the west didn't want SPS in power then why were they in the last government? After all according to you we in Serbia were occupied at that time.

So why do you repeatedly state that SPS can not be part of the next government? Makes no sense at all.
(bganon, 3 July 2012 12:14)
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Why do you insist that I answer the obvious? Why was the SPS in the last government? Quite simple, they were the king makers and there was absolutely no chance the DS and SRS could form one. They were on completely different ends of the spectrum. Dacic was obviously convinced to form a government with the pro-EU DS. Like, it would be in his best interests!

I am not saying the SPS cannot be part of the next government. I am saying there are strong forces working against it. They don't need the SPS like last time. Nikolic and his new SNS party are on-board now (you know, the sinking ship).

We just need to go through the motions of convincing the public that an SNS/DS government is a good idea and the three steps below is how I think it will be done.

"How can someone be in favour of democracy but against the will of the people?"
(MikeC, 3 July 2012 18:53)

The 'will of the people' is for you that Dacic (a person from the party which came out as only #3 in the election) becoming prime minister?

Like I've said my friends, and please don't shoot the messenger, but the end goal is to have an SNS/DS government. What I've been attempting to figure out are what steps this needs to take. Essentially, there are three steps:

1. We expected initial talks between the DS and SPS but we would need the SPS to back-stab the DS (at least in the public light) for the next step to occur. It is more complicated than that but to the public, that's the way it looks.

2. Now that step 1. is complete, we have started talks between the SNS and SPS with all looking promising so far. The SNS are very accommodating while the SPS looks in control. However, we can see lots of mud being flung at the SPS and I expect this to continue to the point where the SNS turn around and say, hey, we've been very generous but you Dacic... you are one dirty character! (this is where we are now).

3. Once Dacic is made to look like the greedy bad guy and the public believe this, they will finally accept an SNS/DS government as the last alternative. In that case, many powerful countries (i.e. the occupiers) will be happy.

Like I've said before, the DSS and SPS are not favourable parties to the North Atlantic alliance. We are going through the motions of forming an SNS/DS government.

Serbia hasn't shown any democratic tradition so far after the elections. It is absurd for the third-ranked party to come forward with PM. On the other hand, the US administration, the "beacon of democracy" sends its envoy to alter the will of the Serbian people. Now that's absurdity as well.
If the final outcome of this story is to have Dacic as PM, the Americans should respect it and take into consideration his statements that Serbia is committed to the path of European integration and close Euro-Atlantic cooperation. Unfortunately, the only thing I see happening if he becomes PM will be a smear campaign from the outside.

The Yanks are afraid of Russian capital coming into Serbia, that's for sure.
Take a closer look: American companies came into Serbia, but very few are interested in making monumental investments. Some of them such as US Steel left after exhausting the local resources, some such as PMI have laid off workers making the investment worse off for Serbs, whereas NCR is profiting on youth labor while giving hilariously low wages.
On the other hand, Russians are interested for serious investments, thus making the Americans jealous, behaving if the manner "if I don't have it - and I don't really want it, then nobody can have it".
Now, it is up to Dacic to make a stance for the interest of his voters.

On the other hand, Russians are interested for serious investments, thus making the Americans jealous, behaving if the manner "if I don't have it - and I don't really want it, then nobody can have it".
Now, it is up to Dacic to make a stance for the interest of his voters.
(Gerd, 3 July 2012 12:24)
At 51% controlling interest at a price of 20cents on the dollar, you are definitely right about Russian interest in making an investment in Serbia.
You forgot China who will loan you money at 10% interest to employee Chinese companies to work in Serbia.

Zoran SPS did not have to be in the last government, they could have supported the government from the 'back benches', as they did with Kostunica. Obviously the 'occupiers' didn't want to stop them from being in government. And obviously the 'occupiers' didn't stop Kostunica from being in government either. Or then again perhaps they only occupy temporarily, in your mind at least. Yes if being academic means basing my opinions on fact and not on wild ideas about occupation by a hidden enemy you will not name, nor when you believe they began occupying, then yes I'm academic. And I'd rather be factual, than a conspiracy theorist.

How many times do I have to tell you that economics and finance in the Kostunica government was run by neo-liberal leaning G17 and Dinkic? You can't claim credit for Kostunica in that field when Dinkic was running things. Besides, nobody in Serbia will tell you that economics are the special field of DSS, they are far to focused on national issues.Its just the same by the way if Dacic was to carry out some successful police reform just now, it would not be success of DS, it would be Dacic's / SPS success - not that it would ever happen... And as I've also told you, it really helps being lucky enough to be in government when there isn't a major world recession going on. It really takes a while for you to get some things!

And remind me please of Kostunica's policy successes in Kosovo? What did his 'backbone' (harsh words) achieve exactly?

An SNS, SPS, and URS Government as already agreed, and it not a matter of some unprincipled ambition, but because of a Safe and Wise Democratic Principle of Balance in the Process to Guarantee Democracy.

The SNS have the Presidency, and so for the Democratic Balance, the Prime Minister has to come from the SPS or the URS.

The SPS has 44 Mandates compared to a mere 16 for the URS, and there have been many unproven allegations of corruption against the Democratically Elected Honourable Leader of the URS, and so for all these reasons, a SNS, SPS, and URS Government would choose the Prime Minister from the ranks of the SPS.

The Democratically Elected Honourable Leader of the SPS has been a Deputy Prime Minister in the previous Government, and so has the experience to be Prime Minister.

We all know that the DS campaigned on the platform that the DS will form a Coalition with the SNS.

On 6/4/ 2012, B 92 said that “Coalition with SNS not realistic DS official says”; and on 4/6/ 2012, B 92 said that “SNS-DS alliance not realistic, says leader of Progressives”; and on 25/6/ 2012, B 92 said that “German Ambassador Wolfram Maas says the West is not calling for a government made up of the DS and SNS.”

America wants Election Promises to be broken, because America are not just Undemocratic, but, America is Antidemocratic Dictator, and they are Evil Busybodies in other Peoples’ Business in order to Murder, Destroy, Steal, and to Subjugate and Exploit Others.

"How can someone be in favour of democracy but against the will of the people?"
(MikeC, 3 July 2012 18:53)

How can few hundred Serb MUP Agents prevent the will of the 2 mil people in Kosova?
Are we talking about the " Will of the people"?

3. Once Dacic is made to look like the greedy bad guy and the public believe this, they will finally accept an SNS/DS government as the last alternative. In that case, many powerful countries (i.e. the occupiers) will be happy.

Like I've said before, the DSS and SPS are not favourable parties to the North Atlantic alliance. We are going through the motions of forming an SNS/DS government.
(Zoran, 3 July 2012 10:35)

You know what the carrot is for Serbia in all this?

He comes with a clear message: "You either do what we say, or else we will campaiign against you". As if Serbia were a Latin American country during the Cold War.

One should tell the American administration what year it is and where is Serbia, cause it ain't the Cold War and Serbia is not in Latin America.
So mr. Reeker better be coming with advices and possible investment opportunities, rather than lobbying tasks.

I like the formation of the future government… their ideas on how to govern the state are great. It is unfortunate Kostunica is not participating
US! stay out!!!

I just dont get why Reeker and Gordon are coming here at all. They know we are not terrorists so there is no risk to their security. If they had done to an islamic country what they had done to us, they wouldn't dare come. They have no credibility here and should just keep their noses out of our business. I mean its almost funny really, they (and the Germans, their brokeback chums) give cg accession talks as some kind of insult to us. Small minded and pathetic diplomacy. They don't give a damn about our concerns, show no respect and should be treated likewise. But I am sure they will come, and we will smile and shake hands and shoot the breeze, but really, leave us alone.

"Meanwhile, other media in Belgrade are reporting that the actual reason for the visits is that the U.S. does not want to see Ivica Dačić in the office of prime minister. "

And the majority of the Serbs didn't want that, neither, because only a minority voted for his party.

And as I've also told you, it really helps being lucky enough to be in government when there isn't a major world recession going on. It really takes a while for you to get some things!

And remind me please of Kostunica's policy successes in Kosovo? What did his 'backbone' (harsh words) achieve exactly?
(bganon, 3 July 2012 18:26)
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Kostunica was at the head of the government and that includes responsibility for the economy. Dinkic reported to him so I am glad Kostunica kept him in line.

As for a major world recession, now that's as accurate as the "internationals" taking care of KiM. There are no "internationals" but rather western occupiers just like there is no world recession but rather one that hit western economies.

The economies of the BRICS and those aligned to them continued to grow. China had double digit growth, South America continued to grow, most of Asia continued to grow and even Australia benefited with growth.

If Tadic had no alternative to EU and that meant aligning our economy with a sinking Titanic and unilaterally implementing the SAA, which cost us €500 million, tripling our debt and asking the IMF for loans to keep an unproductive public sector floating, just so he didn't lose votes, well, what can I say? You made the same mistake twice when you voted!

As for KiM, maintaining the status quo is sometimes a good move. The enclaves had Serbian infrastructure while "independence" had many obstacles. Now what exactly did Tadic achieve?

bganon, if I may interfere in your dialogue with Zoran, the biggest success of the Kostunica government is the handing over of the people wanted by the Hague. It made it possible for the DS to only have to catch 3 people instead of 60, so Serbia fulfilled one of the main conditions to join the EU thanks in large part to Kostunica. Something he should take credit for. In her book, Carla Del Ponte speaks about him forcing or convincing these people to 'voluntarily' go to the Hague. However, there are no more people left to send to the Hague, so I don't see why would anybody vote for him.

Sending Reeker to lobby for a grand coalition is a breach of sovereignty. It is clear that the US administration disapproves a government in which former Milosevic associates will be holding positions, but hey... democracy is a Russian roulette. The Americans should have thought about it earlier when they were supporting Tadic who revitalized Milosevic's party. Now, it's a bit late now to fight his "legacy" when you were assisting it for the last four years by turning a blind eye.

So now I really do not understand how long will it interfere in our politics SAD.

I didn't like horney Clinton as americas president but I respected the will of the american people. I suggest they do the same. How can someone be in favour of democracy but against the will of the people?

And I do really get your point about the recession - after all Serbia is not affected when their main trading partners are the BRIC countries..... er hang on a minute... Great point!

Carry on the Kostunica worship though if it makes you feel better.
(bganon, 4 July 2012 10:22)
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Aha, there was lots of BRIC funding ready for Serbia, create the project (mainly infrastructure) and the funding will be there. Problem being that Tadic burned his bridges with the BRICS as he saw no alternative to the EU. We all know how that turned out.

As for Kostunica, the economy was doing very well under his premiership so there was no need to criticise Dinkic. What you mention is just hypothetical. As for the Albanians declaring independence, wow!! They did it during Milosevic's rule also but they only made progress when your man Tadic took the reins. He made a huge mess of Serbia but who cares right? You'll keep voting for him because he represents a young, modern and progressive Serbia right? LOL!

Reader quite droll. The point is correct though, Kostunica did agree to hand over Milosevic to what Zoran calls the 'NATO' court. Quite heroic and principled of him I do agree.
(bganon, 4 July 2012 10:38)
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For an apparent "insider" why do you make up stories to justify your claims? Djindjic paid with his life for illegally handing over/kidnapping Milosevic.

Now this secret US cable -> http://wikileaks.org/reldate/2011-08-30_0.html# disproves everything you and Reader have to say. But hey, you can keep making up stories instead of accepting the truth. You know, ego is the greatest deception.

BTW, I can easily find others to further disprove what you say. Julian Assange has done wonders to clear up the lies coming from certain corners.

Since America loves to send officials to countries to "influence" governments, can we send some people to Washington to lobby for Ron Paul?

We should sue NATO for war reparations.

The Election of January 2007, gave the DSS, the NS, and the SRS 128 mandates with a majority of 6 in Parliament.

The occupiers asked the DSS to form a Coalition with the DS and G 17 Plus, and the DSS thought that given the situation with the leader of SRS being in The Hague, and because Slobodan Milosevic had recently been in The Hague that it would be wise to form a Coalition with others.

Euro America was more Influential on the World Scene, and Serbia was much weaker Diplomatically, and they could easily yet unjustly demonize Serbia because of the SRS and the SPS.

The May 2008 Election gave the SRS, the DSS, the NS, and the SPS 127 Mandates with a majority of 4 in the Parliament, and Euro America preferred the SPS to the DSS and NS in 2008, because they did not want the DSS and NS at any time.

It would not surprize me in the slightest, if Euro America and the DS let the G 17 Plus do a good job with the Economy because they were Scheming an early Election, but the Global Economy was better at that time, and I do not think that the G 17 Plus was part of that Conspiracy to have Tadic and Company win an Election to give away Kosovo.

Euro America and the DS were planning the Unnecessary 2008 Election where the EU signed the SAA Agreement to help Tadic and Company win the Election in order to give away Kosovo.

Everyone knows that the DSS and the NS have done more to preserve Kosovo with the Partner for Peace Programme with NATO, and the Serbian Constitution.

Zoran if you think that Dinkic reported to Kostunica in government you have no idea of the workings of government in Serbia. I've been on the inside and each department is a law unto itself - reporting only to the party leader. The PM is a lame duck in a way and the only way the PM can get rid of a minister is if the minister's party leader agrees. Kostunica didn't keep Dinkic in line at all and Miskovic flourished under the Kostunica government (and not just because of eg G17 Bubalo, Port of Belgrade). Indeed one of the main reasons why Kostunica government came to an end was that he was being ignored / laughed at by blackmailing G17. Kostunica was fed up and dissolved it. Won't even bother mentioning the numerous dubious privatisations that went on in this period.

The new government - if it is ever formed, claims that this arrangement will be weakened somewhat by mixing up parties within ministries ie main minister from 1 party, state secretary from another. However, that may make for more chaotic government with underlings calling up their party bosses to complain about ministers and so on.

Yes the Kostunica government had amazing success on Kosovo - you are right, under their watch Kosovo Albanians declared independence!

And I do really get your point about the recession - after all Serbia is not affected when their main trading partners are the BRIC countries..... er hang on a minute... Great point!

Carry on the Kostunica worship though if it makes you feel better.

Reader quite droll. The point is correct though, Kostunica did agree to hand over Milosevic to what Zoran calls the 'NATO' court. Quite heroic and principled of him I do agree.

And later as you point out they patriotically handed over a number of suspected war criminals to proceed on the path of European integration with the goal of eventual membership of the EU. This included the signing / initialling of the SAA agreement in 2007, which Kostunica led and supported, then later did a U turn (or as they say in the US flip flopped).

Its quite a joke really that Kostunica has had no success on the issues that people claim to support him on and that in government he has often done the opposite of what he claims today to support.

Those are yet more reasons why he is languishing in the political wilderness today.

Here is the correct secret US cable comparing Tadic to Kostunica. Check -> http://wikileaks.org/cable/2006/09/06BELGRADE1407.html#

War Crimes
-----------

7. (S) Tadic will be more receptive to messages on ICTY
cooperation than Kostunica. Tadic openly calls for Mladic's
arrest and appears committed to real action in bringing him
and the other fugitives to justice. From the beginning of
his term in office, Tadic recognized the importance of ICTY
cooperation, whereas Kostunica has only reluctantly been
cornered into taking on the ICTY issue (when he became PM in
2004, he stated that ICTY cooperation was not a priority).

2. (S) Tadic tends to take a more realist, pro-Western tack
than the prime minister on major issues. In contrast with
Kostunica, Tadic attaches more importance to U.S.-Serbian
relations; he privately accepts the reality of Kosovo's
independence and is focused on "the day after;" he openly
calls for Mladic's arrest; and he publicly supports Serbia's
membership in NATO.

4. (S) Tadic is perhaps the best interlocutor we have to
manage the Kosovo endgame...

11. (S) In sum, despite his shortcomings as a leader, Tadic
will be a much more receptive interlocutor during his visit
than the Prime Minister, especially on the major questions of
Kosovo, ICTY and mil-mil cooperation.

Zoran how does anything you quoted in that cable contradict what I wrote? The facts are there for all to see - Kostunica behaved one way in government and advocated a different policy later on. What stories did I make up? Those in your imagination perhaps?

BRIC funding for Serbia? I'm talking about trade, not funding. You can't just shoot for the stars and decide 'oh we will go with BRIC' tomorrow. It takes years of organic and organised trade with countries to get to a stage when you can seriously consider going with a rival organisation. Not that BRIC is an organisation, or currently an alternative to the EU. The alternative to the EU would be an independent trade policy and may have next to no impact on trade balance with BRIC countries.

'Djindjic paid with his life for illegally handing over/kidnapping Milosevic' - another meaningless statement in the context of our discussion. Was there a point to it?

This is quite interesting. This is the US openly admitting that they cannot force an SPS government to do what except by overt threats which is why they prefer a DS led government, one which they could influence with out all the public show with the DS making the usual excuses to serbian citizens.

Is this the US trying to save face so they don't have to show how aggressive and hypocritical they are in public?

America has no legitimacy to advise Serbia what to do,they have attacked Serbia 13 years ago for its agenda for its interests to occupy Kosovo.
Only Serbs are those who decide on their future not others and Serbs have voted for change for a better future,their votes was for this government SNS-SPS against the loser party of America DS,America see your job do not worry about us,if Serbia should ask someone then this is only mother Russia no one else.

Because he likes Beograde (LOL).More likely to interfere in Serbia's internal affairs.So much for the USA respecting the FREE VOTES of the Serbian people.They don't like the results of a DEMOCRATIC VOTE so they want to add there WORTHLESS two cents.Serbs refuse to give in to the NEW WORLD ORDER and it is PI**ing of the Americans...G O O D !

I'm only opposed to Dinkic and his ilk being in government. Anything but them.

The problem is that the West made the stick bigger than the carrot and the carrot -EU membership- is rotten anyway.

Agim- how can 50 eulex and kla deny the will of 80000 Serbs?

"How can few hundred Serb MUP Agents prevent the will of the 2 mil people in Kosova?
Are we talking about the " Will of the people"?"

Agim Kelmendi

In that case the same thing should be applied to north Kosovo, Northern Epirus in south Albania, Republiak Srpska and Krajina. After all its the "will of the people". Yes or no?

You people and your BRICS country bs. Exactly what is BRICS, It is a group of ememrging countries that have met occasionally that have similar interests. They have not set up a charter they really do not have trade agreements etc etc. They exchange ideas and discuss similar interests. You would have to be an emerging economy to join their group(Certainly none of you see Serbia in that category.) One day it may become a more organized group and start taking on charities but that is a big step, remember Russia and China are part of the triangle they tend to come together against the US, but they are in no way ready to put on the pajamas for bed.
For all those that say you should drop the west and align yourself with the BRICS, have you gotten an invitation in your mailbox yet??