Serbs were abandonded by everyone during the 1999 campaign against them, yet the Serbs still succesfully defended their country and won the war against the strongest armies in the world, Milosevic stayed in power and Kosovo was under UN peacekeeping control(techniqually still under Serb control) Serbs would do anything to stay away from another war
These are the same experts who followed the US into two disastrous wars that have cost the west it lead in this world and caused economic collapse in Europe and the US.
(sj, 16 September 2011 07:14)
Ha, ha, ha... the war caused the economic collapse in Europe and US ?!!!!
I undestand your hidden strong desire that US and Europe had never gone to war in Afghanistan so that Bid Laden's network could freely operate there to launch other "9/11"s in US or Europe, but at least find some more intelligent reason than this "economic collapse" non-sense. How can the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan cause the economic collapse considering that, at their peak, they were still the cheapest wars that America has done in the last 100+ years. We have to go back to 1899, to the Spanish-American war to find a major war by America that is cheaper.
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
(Bloody Mary, 15 September 2011 18:38)
As opposed to selling this to the Yanks for 25 million US.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/02/serbia-steel-idUSLDE6510OO20100602
Thats all they want, I also am begining to think not all the trolls are Albanians or Serb here, but some intellectuals looking to monopolize those great deals. Me thinks some of the ruling leaders of Serbia might be getting backhanders for loyal service to some western groups. Wake up Serbs take it back. WW1 the Russians were your real brothers today also. Audit those ruling quislings, their bank accounts and deposits and there you will find all your answers.
You can all say that Russia steals from Serbia etc but sometimes (like others have said) there are no other options at the time when money is needed. I would rather sell to the Russians than to the Germans or UK or US companies.
At least in the end the Russians have enough respect to support Serbia's identity and sovereignty. At least the russians won't go back and change Serbia's history books like the K.Albanians & Turks are currently doing.
You won't be flying that flag around Serbian land for too much longer.
I am guessing you are telling us this as our friend.
Right back at ya.
(Peggy, 15 September 2011 23:17)
At least I don't pretend to be one. But if you would sell let's say a share of Serbia's gold reserves for one fifth of the value to me I could also pretend to be your friend. Deal?
From the Serbian side what you have at this forum is hand picked attendees who will kiss western backsides and would sell out their entire families for 30 pieces of silver.
Aleksandr Konuzin’s question falls on deaf ears in a crowd like this lot as most see their future in some dreamland the west will bring where they will live very well and mimic their masters in every way.
“ministers of several European countries, foreign policy and security experts” This sums the majority that attended this meeting which Tadic convened – not a Serb amongst them. These are the same experts who followed the US into two disastrous wars that have cost the west it lead in this world and caused economic collapse in Europe and the US.
Let me say this group of foreigners do not give one hoot about the Serbs and even less about the Albanians. They are interested in keeping their interests on track.
Konuzin speaking like a true Serb. Had the Russian's defended Serbia from Nato in 98-99 or not pulled out of Kosovo, there wouldn't be a need for these discussions. Too bad Yeltsin was a little too drunk to stand up to the west. Maybe Konuzin should help Serbia by setting up a military pact/treaty, ensuring Serb sovereignty. Place some missle installations in Serbia that would neutralize the ones the West has pointed at Russia.
I digress...
Seriously, when is Serbia going to set up border posts in the areas between the Albos and the Serbs and create unilateral solutions on their own. You can wipe your behind with the paper these negotiations are written on.
It gets better and better. An angry bear preaching to the goats.
(miri, 15 September 2011 17:25)
Why don’t you and your Albanians stand up on your own two feet for a change instead of hiding behind mother and occasionally making stupid threats you can’t keep.
Stop grovelling on all fours to the US and people might call your Albos men.
-It take an outside view to know about the slow suicide the western imposed quisling regime are committing to Serbia. Hopefully, Russia can awake it´s southernmost border.-
russia's southernmost border!? hmm... ain't that the "pravda."
Thank you, Ambassador, for telling the truth, and trying to remind the sell-out Serbs what it means to be a patriot. Serbia's irrational kneeling before the EU is pathetic and bizarre, given that it is becoming clear that the EU will most likely dissolve within ten years due to its intractable sovereign debt issues, or at least develop into a two tier framework where the non-wealthy nations will basically be "second-class citizens". Serbia had better realize soon that you shouldn't embrace those who are committed to dismembering you; but should embrace BRIC and NAM.
Actually, there are Serbs in many places. One of them, a journalist, is in South Ossetia in prison for example, apparently for nothing. He will be released after a couple of companies are sold to the Russians.
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
(Bloody Mary, 15 September 2011 18:38)
==========================
I am guessing you are telling us this as our friend.
Right back at ya.
“ If Russia gives back South Ossetia and Abkhazia to Georgia then they can talk, otherwise they should shut up”
*** Before you bark this next time please turn around to be sure there’s nobody there to put your long tongue into your own hole. We will sooner return Georgia back to the mainland Russia. We alone established this Sakartvelo state known as Georgia and we alone established this nation of 11 hostile Kartli tribes and we rented them Abkhasia , Adjaria and the South provinces of Ossetia which had been parts of Russia before in 1801 Irakli-2 managed to beg the Tsar accept Imereti to Russia. We fought twice against Iran (1801-1812 and 1826) to save them from final elimination and it was one of the big mistakes we made in our history.
Another such a mistake was done in 1999 and we have enough will and all kinds of power to replay the game. So Koziunin is right cause Serbian current elites are impotent to defend the interests of those who watch them with a hope. And I wonder how many times Serbs are going to step back in this sh-t ? When a chiken runs away from a cock it cares if it is not running too fast and so do the FM and the PM and the P of Serbia every time when a serious question is raised. They also cooperate with Russia cause the people want them to. But as once F.D. Roosevelt said you cannot deceive big quantity of people for a long period of time. And this is just what Koziunin said without traditional diplomatic reverences.
How lond has this Russan guy lived in Serbia ?does he not know tha fact that serbs don`t care about Kosovo because its not theirs , and most of them have never been to kosovo !!
============================
This is the most ridiculous argument that keeps coming up.
Hey, most people from Berlin have never been to Munich but does that mean that Munich does not belong to Germany?
You can have the same argument all over the world.
Why do you keep making a fool of yourself by repeating such a ridiculous statement?
'The forum, which was opened this morning by President Boris Tadić, was organized by the Fund for Political Excellence and the European Movement in Serbia.'
And who pays for this fund?
http://www.soros.org/initiatives/thinktank/focus_areas/core/grantees/bfpe_2006
Yeah, that is all you need to know folks. Soros and the anti-Serb hate mongering gang. Konuzin is right, there were probably either no Serbs there, or only self-hating Serbs like Ceda Jovanovic.
Bravo Ambassador Konuzin! Keep on speaking the truth.
"Sorry but there was not any indication that Serbia could have gotten more for NIS than the offer from Gazprom. On top of that, the selling of NIS to the Russians insured that Europe's most important gas pipeline will stretch too a large part of Serbia's territory. What other company could have insured Serbia with energy security than the Russians? Europhiles say that we could have gotten a better deal, yet I have not seen one company that offered us a higher sum and even if they did, there was not a massive pipeline stretching throughout Serbia that came attached to that bid."
Ari, obviously you do not live in Serbia. The prices of the natural gas keep increasing every year. From 2009, the natural gas price increased 60%. What was this year's increase? 15% from 1 October?
It's all about profit, as the "slavic brotherhood" is lower on Russia's list of priorities.
I think it's cheaper to go back to electric heating. At least "Elektroprivreda Srbije" is still owned by Serbia.
I wouldn't count on Russia to be my "energy provider" if I was you.
Serbia’s Oil Industry: a Christmas Gift to Gazprom
Publication: Eurasia Daily Monitor Volume: 6 Issue: 2
January 6, 2009 12:47 PM Age: 3 yrs
By: Vladimir Socor
(...)Belgrade chose Gazprom Neft without holding an international tender for the sale of 51 percent of NIS shares; and it agreed to sell that controlling stake for a mere €400 million ($537 million), even after the international consultants Deloitte & Touche had valued NIS at €2.2 billion ($2.95 billion)last September. By privileging Gazprom over other potential international partners, Belgrade implicitly rewarded Russia for continuing to oppose international recognition of Kosovo; and by selling the controlling stake in NIS at a deeply undervalued price, the Serb government expected Gazprom to reciprocate the favor by building a section of the South Stream gas transportation project in Serbian territory.
Moscow pocketed those concessions but decided at the last moment to break the linkage between the NIS sale and the South Stream project. Moscow’s decision contravenes the January 2008 Russian-Serbian intergovernmental agreement as well as the Serbian parliament’s September 2008 ratification of that agreement. Both sets of documents treated NIS and South Stream as inseparable aspects of the transaction. Indeed, the Russian side had insisted all along that NIS be thrown into the package with the gas project, in effect as a palm-greaser for Gazprom to include Serbia in South Stream. The Serb president and government have now ended up ceding control of NIS for a fraction of its value, without any assurance that Gazprom would or could proceed with South Stream.
Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
(Ari Gold, 15 September 2011 19:17)
Perhaps this article will answer your question:
http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=34308
So at the end of the day, the Russian deal was the best one on the table. Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
(Ari Gold, 15 September 2011 19:17)
Don't argue with a p***k. Our Beardy Baldy Mary is here to troll, no matter what - of course from a safe distance. We continue to feed trolls with food - give them things they can't eat. Or nothing.
Of course what you say is true. Enough if you look at the long and amateurish "sale" of JAT. Indians, Russians, Turks... everyone got fed up with the mismanagement and went somewhere else. But I-know-all trolls of "Tirana-saurus" species will appear and defecate this web site. My mistake I ever tried to talk to these imbeciles.
I think, the rejection they receive here is not strong enough. Down with them to hell, enough is enough. They confuse this site with the youtube.
He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities.
NIS wasn't enough.Putin's tax collector is here.Time to pay for that russian veto.
How lond has this Russan guy lived in Serbia ?does he not know tha fact that serbs don`t care about Kosovo because its not theirs , and most of them have never been to kosovo !!
I urge kosovo serbs to stop listening to belgrade and join Kosovo institutations and live happy in Kosovo
I agree, with some of the other readers! I live here in U.S. you ought to be either blind or stupid to want to join EU. Here in U.S. we are taught that BRIC countries are the future, (at least in graduate school). E.U. is nothing but our puppet, plus we are bankrupt as it is.
My honest opinion would be to sign your country over to someone else, since your country keeps collapsing and creating new unneeded republics (I know U.S., EU and others are mainly responsible and have been hence why you side with China or Russia).
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
(Bloody Mary, 15 September 2011 18:38)
Sorry but there was not any indication that Serbia could have gotten more for NIS than the offer from Gazprom. On top of that, the selling of NIS to the Russians insured that Europe's most important gas pipeline will stretch too a large part of Serbia's territory. What other company could have insured Serbia with energy security than the Russians? Europhiles say that we could have gotten a better deal, yet I have not seen one company that offered us a higher sum and even if they did, there was not a massive pipeline stretching throughout Serbia that came attached to that bid.
So at the end of the day, the Russian deal was the best one on the table. Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
I urge the Serbs here to listen to this "Ari Gold". He knows a lot about EU, after all he lives in one of these broken EU countries. He is willing to sacrifice his life in one of these countries (instead of Russia or Serbia) in the name of the greater good, a.k.a saving Serbia from EU.
Sorry but there was not any indication that Serbia could have gotten more for NIS than the offer from Gazprom. On top of that, the selling of NIS to the Russians insured that Europe's most important gas pipeline will stretch too a large part of Serbia's territory. What other company could have insured Serbia with energy security than the Russians? Europhiles say that we could have gotten a better deal, yet I have not seen one company that offered us a higher sum and even if they did, there was not a massive pipeline stretching throughout Serbia that came attached to that bid.
So at the end of the day, the Russian deal was the best one on the table. Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
(Ari Gold, 15 September 2011 19:17)
Keep telling yourself that and maybe one day you can swallow that bitter pill.
The fact is Russia took advantage of Serbia at a moment when Serbia needed Russian support in the UNSC or lose Kosovo forever. The problem is it did not work, but only temporarily prevented Kosovo UN membership. The loss of Kosovo is a done deal, it will never be Serbian again.
There was never any open bidding on NIS only an estimate of its value which was more than 3 times what Russia offered.
As far as the pipeline, it probably would have went through Serbia to start with, however will it now. Isn't Romania a big link for the line, will Russia still use that route with Romania signing on with the missile defense shield to protect Europe from countries like (Iran)?
Idd, Serbs outside Serbia are more patriotic then Serbs of Serbia.
What Serbia should do is Spread their chances, so not 100% for EU or 100% for Russia but go more like 50/50.
At last someone is telling Tadic's administration what the people of Serbia really wants. Tadic is selling out your country.
Soon Kosovo, R Srpska and other Serb areas lost for ever if you do not come together and fight for your country.
"He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities."
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
"Are there no Serbs in this hall?," Konuzin exclaimed at one point, speaking "in an emotional manner and raising his voice", according to reports.
He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities.
So are there any serbs ready to sell economic facilities to the Russians?If not, then you are not "serbs". Only Jeremic and the russians are serbs.
Thank you Mr. Ambassador. Your statements almost brought me to tears. He is right. The Serbian elite has abandoned its population in Kosovo and is completely incapable of defending Serbian interests. Our illegal aliens in the south and on this site pump their chest at their victories as if they had anything to do with it. The weakness in our leaders is the only source of your victories, if Serbia had a pro-Serbian gov't then you would not be pumping your chest at all.
Serbs I plead you to give up on this yellow Dyes regime. It has been 10 years since they have been in power and really what has changed? Any increase in living standards you have experienced is only due to the lifting of embargoes. Our actual leaders are responsible for nothing positive in Serbia and have to go.
Let me ask why is it bad for Serbia to turn to Russia but allow itself to be completely exploited by the EU which is a sinking ship. Serbs, you have internet you do not have to get your news from the corrupt Serbian media. So why if you clearly know what is going on in Western Europe you still are not questioning the validity of the "European dream".
Germans, English, Italians all want OUT of the EU does that not tell you something? Russia with the South Stream is about to have even more control over Europe's energy supplies. Having a genuinely pro Russian country in Europe strongly benefits Russia and if it benefits Russia it will do what it can to benefit Serbia. Apart from Russia there are more countries such as the BRIC and our friends at the N.A.M. who would love to enhance cooperation with Serbia. We would not be isolated if we turned our back on the 4th Reich, now is the time to stick our thumb in their eye.
Serbia does NOT NEED THE EU AND NATO. Vote for Dveri Srpske in the next elections and get your country back!
Russian envoy asks: Are there no Serbs here? Of coarse not Serbs Serbia they have been bought by KJB Kremlin Russia controlled company's almost for nothing. Now he has a gall to open his mouth and insult the Serbs. The Serb leadership should for that unbelievable insult declare him nongrata put him on the next plane back to the KJB infested Kremlin hive. That is what Tito did in the past to the Marxist Kremlin when they insulted the people of the region then again Tito was Croatian. Soon after that Marxist Kremlin was apologizing profusely bringing presents and kissing Yugo but.
"He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities." Another joker.
We have been bombed, raped, occupied and brainwashed in over ten years to believe we did all that to ourselves. Quisling-Serbia, the land of zombies & western wannabes.
It take an outside view to know about the slow suicide the western imposed quisling regime are committing to Serbia. Hopefully, Russia can awake it´s southernmost border.
Thank you Mr. Ambassador. Your statements almost brought me to tears. He is right. The Serbian elite has abandoned its population in Kosovo and is completely incapable of defending Serbian interests. Our illegal aliens in the south and on this site pump their chest at their victories as if they had anything to do with it. The weakness in our leaders is the only source of your victories, if Serbia had a pro-Serbian gov't then you would not be pumping your chest at all.
Serbs I plead you to give up on this yellow Dyes regime. It has been 10 years since they have been in power and really what has changed? Any increase in living standards you have experienced is only due to the lifting of embargoes. Our actual leaders are responsible for nothing positive in Serbia and have to go.
Let me ask why is it bad for Serbia to turn to Russia but allow itself to be completely exploited by the EU which is a sinking ship. Serbs, you have internet you do not have to get your news from the corrupt Serbian media. So why if you clearly know what is going on in Western Europe you still are not questioning the validity of the "European dream".
Germans, English, Italians all want OUT of the EU does that not tell you something? Russia with the South Stream is about to have even more control over Europe's energy supplies. Having a genuinely pro Russian country in Europe strongly benefits Russia and if it benefits Russia it will do what it can to benefit Serbia. Apart from Russia there are more countries such as the BRIC and our friends at the N.A.M. who would love to enhance cooperation with Serbia. We would not be isolated if we turned our back on the 4th Reich, now is the time to stick our thumb in their eye.
Serbia does NOT NEED THE EU AND NATO. Vote for Dveri Srpske in the next elections and get your country back!
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
(Bloody Mary, 15 September 2011 18:38)
==========================
I am guessing you are telling us this as our friend.
Right back at ya.
“ If Russia gives back South Ossetia and Abkhazia to Georgia then they can talk, otherwise they should shut up”
*** Before you bark this next time please turn around to be sure there’s nobody there to put your long tongue into your own hole. We will sooner return Georgia back to the mainland Russia. We alone established this Sakartvelo state known as Georgia and we alone established this nation of 11 hostile Kartli tribes and we rented them Abkhasia , Adjaria and the South provinces of Ossetia which had been parts of Russia before in 1801 Irakli-2 managed to beg the Tsar accept Imereti to Russia. We fought twice against Iran (1801-1812 and 1826) to save them from final elimination and it was one of the big mistakes we made in our history.
Another such a mistake was done in 1999 and we have enough will and all kinds of power to replay the game. So Koziunin is right cause Serbian current elites are impotent to defend the interests of those who watch them with a hope. And I wonder how many times Serbs are going to step back in this sh-t ? When a chiken runs away from a cock it cares if it is not running too fast and so do the FM and the PM and the P of Serbia every time when a serious question is raised. They also cooperate with Russia cause the people want them to. But as once F.D. Roosevelt said you cannot deceive big quantity of people for a long period of time. And this is just what Koziunin said without traditional diplomatic reverences.
"Are there no Serbs in this hall?," Konuzin exclaimed at one point, speaking "in an emotional manner and raising his voice", according to reports.
He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities.
So are there any serbs ready to sell economic facilities to the Russians?If not, then you are not "serbs". Only Jeremic and the russians are serbs.
"He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities."
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
(Bloody Mary, 15 September 2011 18:38)
Sorry but there was not any indication that Serbia could have gotten more for NIS than the offer from Gazprom. On top of that, the selling of NIS to the Russians insured that Europe's most important gas pipeline will stretch too a large part of Serbia's territory. What other company could have insured Serbia with energy security than the Russians? Europhiles say that we could have gotten a better deal, yet I have not seen one company that offered us a higher sum and even if they did, there was not a massive pipeline stretching throughout Serbia that came attached to that bid.
So at the end of the day, the Russian deal was the best one on the table. Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
At last someone is telling Tadic's administration what the people of Serbia really wants. Tadic is selling out your country.
Soon Kosovo, R Srpska and other Serb areas lost for ever if you do not come together and fight for your country.
"He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities." Another joker.
We have been bombed, raped, occupied and brainwashed in over ten years to believe we did all that to ourselves. Quisling-Serbia, the land of zombies & western wannabes.
It take an outside view to know about the slow suicide the western imposed quisling regime are committing to Serbia. Hopefully, Russia can awake it´s southernmost border.
How lond has this Russan guy lived in Serbia ?does he not know tha fact that serbs don`t care about Kosovo because its not theirs , and most of them have never been to kosovo !!
============================
This is the most ridiculous argument that keeps coming up.
Hey, most people from Berlin have never been to Munich but does that mean that Munich does not belong to Germany?
You can have the same argument all over the world.
Why do you keep making a fool of yourself by repeating such a ridiculous statement?
Russian envoy asks: Are there no Serbs here? Of coarse not Serbs Serbia they have been bought by KJB Kremlin Russia controlled company's almost for nothing. Now he has a gall to open his mouth and insult the Serbs. The Serb leadership should for that unbelievable insult declare him nongrata put him on the next plane back to the KJB infested Kremlin hive. That is what Tito did in the past to the Marxist Kremlin when they insulted the people of the region then again Tito was Croatian. Soon after that Marxist Kremlin was apologizing profusely bringing presents and kissing Yugo but.
So at the end of the day, the Russian deal was the best one on the table. Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
(Ari Gold, 15 September 2011 19:17)
Don't argue with a p***k. Our Beardy Baldy Mary is here to troll, no matter what - of course from a safe distance. We continue to feed trolls with food - give them things they can't eat. Or nothing.
Of course what you say is true. Enough if you look at the long and amateurish "sale" of JAT. Indians, Russians, Turks... everyone got fed up with the mismanagement and went somewhere else. But I-know-all trolls of "Tirana-saurus" species will appear and defecate this web site. My mistake I ever tried to talk to these imbeciles.
I think, the rejection they receive here is not strong enough. Down with them to hell, enough is enough. They confuse this site with the youtube.
'The forum, which was opened this morning by President Boris Tadić, was organized by the Fund for Political Excellence and the European Movement in Serbia.'
And who pays for this fund?
http://www.soros.org/initiatives/thinktank/focus_areas/core/grantees/bfpe_2006
Yeah, that is all you need to know folks. Soros and the anti-Serb hate mongering gang. Konuzin is right, there were probably either no Serbs there, or only self-hating Serbs like Ceda Jovanovic.
Bravo Ambassador Konuzin! Keep on speaking the truth.
I agree, with some of the other readers! I live here in U.S. you ought to be either blind or stupid to want to join EU. Here in U.S. we are taught that BRIC countries are the future, (at least in graduate school). E.U. is nothing but our puppet, plus we are bankrupt as it is.
My honest opinion would be to sign your country over to someone else, since your country keeps collapsing and creating new unneeded republics (I know U.S., EU and others are mainly responsible and have been hence why you side with China or Russia).
Thank you, Ambassador, for telling the truth, and trying to remind the sell-out Serbs what it means to be a patriot. Serbia's irrational kneeling before the EU is pathetic and bizarre, given that it is becoming clear that the EU will most likely dissolve within ten years due to its intractable sovereign debt issues, or at least develop into a two tier framework where the non-wealthy nations will basically be "second-class citizens". Serbia had better realize soon that you shouldn't embrace those who are committed to dismembering you; but should embrace BRIC and NAM.
Serbia’s Oil Industry: a Christmas Gift to Gazprom
Publication: Eurasia Daily Monitor Volume: 6 Issue: 2
January 6, 2009 12:47 PM Age: 3 yrs
By: Vladimir Socor
(...)Belgrade chose Gazprom Neft without holding an international tender for the sale of 51 percent of NIS shares; and it agreed to sell that controlling stake for a mere €400 million ($537 million), even after the international consultants Deloitte & Touche had valued NIS at €2.2 billion ($2.95 billion)last September. By privileging Gazprom over other potential international partners, Belgrade implicitly rewarded Russia for continuing to oppose international recognition of Kosovo; and by selling the controlling stake in NIS at a deeply undervalued price, the Serb government expected Gazprom to reciprocate the favor by building a section of the South Stream gas transportation project in Serbian territory.
Moscow pocketed those concessions but decided at the last moment to break the linkage between the NIS sale and the South Stream project. Moscow’s decision contravenes the January 2008 Russian-Serbian intergovernmental agreement as well as the Serbian parliament’s September 2008 ratification of that agreement. Both sets of documents treated NIS and South Stream as inseparable aspects of the transaction. Indeed, the Russian side had insisted all along that NIS be thrown into the package with the gas project, in effect as a palm-greaser for Gazprom to include Serbia in South Stream. The Serb president and government have now ended up ceding control of NIS for a fraction of its value, without any assurance that Gazprom would or could proceed with South Stream.
He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities.
NIS wasn't enough.Putin's tax collector is here.Time to pay for that russian veto.
Idd, Serbs outside Serbia are more patriotic then Serbs of Serbia.
What Serbia should do is Spread their chances, so not 100% for EU or 100% for Russia but go more like 50/50.
You can all say that Russia steals from Serbia etc but sometimes (like others have said) there are no other options at the time when money is needed. I would rather sell to the Russians than to the Germans or UK or US companies.
At least in the end the Russians have enough respect to support Serbia's identity and sovereignty. At least the russians won't go back and change Serbia's history books like the K.Albanians & Turks are currently doing.
You won't be flying that flag around Serbian land for too much longer.
Sorry but there was not any indication that Serbia could have gotten more for NIS than the offer from Gazprom. On top of that, the selling of NIS to the Russians insured that Europe's most important gas pipeline will stretch too a large part of Serbia's territory. What other company could have insured Serbia with energy security than the Russians? Europhiles say that we could have gotten a better deal, yet I have not seen one company that offered us a higher sum and even if they did, there was not a massive pipeline stretching throughout Serbia that came attached to that bid.
So at the end of the day, the Russian deal was the best one on the table. Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
(Ari Gold, 15 September 2011 19:17)
Keep telling yourself that and maybe one day you can swallow that bitter pill.
The fact is Russia took advantage of Serbia at a moment when Serbia needed Russian support in the UNSC or lose Kosovo forever. The problem is it did not work, but only temporarily prevented Kosovo UN membership. The loss of Kosovo is a done deal, it will never be Serbian again.
There was never any open bidding on NIS only an estimate of its value which was more than 3 times what Russia offered.
As far as the pipeline, it probably would have went through Serbia to start with, however will it now. Isn't Romania a big link for the line, will Russia still use that route with Romania signing on with the missile defense shield to protect Europe from countries like (Iran)?
How lond has this Russan guy lived in Serbia ?does he not know tha fact that serbs don`t care about Kosovo because its not theirs , and most of them have never been to kosovo !!
I urge kosovo serbs to stop listening to belgrade and join Kosovo institutations and live happy in Kosovo
I urge the Serbs here to listen to this "Ari Gold". He knows a lot about EU, after all he lives in one of these broken EU countries. He is willing to sacrifice his life in one of these countries (instead of Russia or Serbia) in the name of the greater good, a.k.a saving Serbia from EU.
From the Serbian side what you have at this forum is hand picked attendees who will kiss western backsides and would sell out their entire families for 30 pieces of silver.
Aleksandr Konuzin’s question falls on deaf ears in a crowd like this lot as most see their future in some dreamland the west will bring where they will live very well and mimic their masters in every way.
“ministers of several European countries, foreign policy and security experts” This sums the majority that attended this meeting which Tadic convened – not a Serb amongst them. These are the same experts who followed the US into two disastrous wars that have cost the west it lead in this world and caused economic collapse in Europe and the US.
Let me say this group of foreigners do not give one hoot about the Serbs and even less about the Albanians. They are interested in keeping their interests on track.
"Sorry but there was not any indication that Serbia could have gotten more for NIS than the offer from Gazprom. On top of that, the selling of NIS to the Russians insured that Europe's most important gas pipeline will stretch too a large part of Serbia's territory. What other company could have insured Serbia with energy security than the Russians? Europhiles say that we could have gotten a better deal, yet I have not seen one company that offered us a higher sum and even if they did, there was not a massive pipeline stretching throughout Serbia that came attached to that bid."
Ari, obviously you do not live in Serbia. The prices of the natural gas keep increasing every year. From 2009, the natural gas price increased 60%. What was this year's increase? 15% from 1 October?
It's all about profit, as the "slavic brotherhood" is lower on Russia's list of priorities.
I think it's cheaper to go back to electric heating. At least "Elektroprivreda Srbije" is still owned by Serbia.
I wouldn't count on Russia to be my "energy provider" if I was you.
Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
(Ari Gold, 15 September 2011 19:17)
Perhaps this article will answer your question:
http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=34308
Konuzin speaking like a true Serb. Had the Russian's defended Serbia from Nato in 98-99 or not pulled out of Kosovo, there wouldn't be a need for these discussions. Too bad Yeltsin was a little too drunk to stand up to the west. Maybe Konuzin should help Serbia by setting up a military pact/treaty, ensuring Serb sovereignty. Place some missle installations in Serbia that would neutralize the ones the West has pointed at Russia.
I digress...
Seriously, when is Serbia going to set up border posts in the areas between the Albos and the Serbs and create unilateral solutions on their own. You can wipe your behind with the paper these negotiations are written on.
I am guessing you are telling us this as our friend.
Right back at ya.
(Peggy, 15 September 2011 23:17)
At least I don't pretend to be one. But if you would sell let's say a share of Serbia's gold reserves for one fifth of the value to me I could also pretend to be your friend. Deal?
Actually, there are Serbs in many places. One of them, a journalist, is in South Ossetia in prison for example, apparently for nothing. He will be released after a couple of companies are sold to the Russians.
It gets better and better. An angry bear preaching to the goats.
(miri, 15 September 2011 17:25)
Why don’t you and your Albanians stand up on your own two feet for a change instead of hiding behind mother and occasionally making stupid threats you can’t keep.
Stop grovelling on all fours to the US and people might call your Albos men.
-It take an outside view to know about the slow suicide the western imposed quisling regime are committing to Serbia. Hopefully, Russia can awake it´s southernmost border.-
russia's southernmost border!? hmm... ain't that the "pravda."
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
(Bloody Mary, 15 September 2011 18:38)
As opposed to selling this to the Yanks for 25 million US.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/02/serbia-steel-idUSLDE6510OO20100602
Thats all they want, I also am begining to think not all the trolls are Albanians or Serb here, but some intellectuals looking to monopolize those great deals. Me thinks some of the ruling leaders of Serbia might be getting backhanders for loyal service to some western groups. Wake up Serbs take it back. WW1 the Russians were your real brothers today also. Audit those ruling quislings, their bank accounts and deposits and there you will find all your answers.
Serbs were abandonded by everyone during the 1999 campaign against them, yet the Serbs still succesfully defended their country and won the war against the strongest armies in the world, Milosevic stayed in power and Kosovo was under UN peacekeeping control(techniqually still under Serb control) Serbs would do anything to stay away from another war
These are the same experts who followed the US into two disastrous wars that have cost the west it lead in this world and caused economic collapse in Europe and the US.
(sj, 16 September 2011 07:14)
Ha, ha, ha... the war caused the economic collapse in Europe and US ?!!!!
I undestand your hidden strong desire that US and Europe had never gone to war in Afghanistan so that Bid Laden's network could freely operate there to launch other "9/11"s in US or Europe, but at least find some more intelligent reason than this "economic collapse" non-sense. How can the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan cause the economic collapse considering that, at their peak, they were still the cheapest wars that America has done in the last 100+ years. We have to go back to 1899, to the Spanish-American war to find a major war by America that is cheaper.
"He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities."
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
Russian envoy asks: Are there no Serbs here? Of coarse not Serbs Serbia they have been bought by KJB Kremlin Russia controlled company's almost for nothing. Now he has a gall to open his mouth and insult the Serbs. The Serb leadership should for that unbelievable insult declare him nongrata put him on the next plane back to the KJB infested Kremlin hive. That is what Tito did in the past to the Marxist Kremlin when they insulted the people of the region then again Tito was Croatian. Soon after that Marxist Kremlin was apologizing profusely bringing presents and kissing Yugo but.
-It take an outside view to know about the slow suicide the western imposed quisling regime are committing to Serbia. Hopefully, Russia can awake it´s southernmost border.-
russia's southernmost border!? hmm... ain't that the "pravda."
Actually, there are Serbs in many places. One of them, a journalist, is in South Ossetia in prison for example, apparently for nothing. He will be released after a couple of companies are sold to the Russians.
So at the end of the day, the Russian deal was the best one on the table. Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
(Ari Gold, 15 September 2011 19:17)
Don't argue with a p***k. Our Beardy Baldy Mary is here to troll, no matter what - of course from a safe distance. We continue to feed trolls with food - give them things they can't eat. Or nothing.
Of course what you say is true. Enough if you look at the long and amateurish "sale" of JAT. Indians, Russians, Turks... everyone got fed up with the mismanagement and went somewhere else. But I-know-all trolls of "Tirana-saurus" species will appear and defecate this web site. My mistake I ever tried to talk to these imbeciles.
I think, the rejection they receive here is not strong enough. Down with them to hell, enough is enough. They confuse this site with the youtube.
How lond has this Russan guy lived in Serbia ?does he not know tha fact that serbs don`t care about Kosovo because its not theirs , and most of them have never been to kosovo !!
I urge kosovo serbs to stop listening to belgrade and join Kosovo institutations and live happy in Kosovo
"He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities." Another joker.
Serbia’s Oil Industry: a Christmas Gift to Gazprom
Publication: Eurasia Daily Monitor Volume: 6 Issue: 2
January 6, 2009 12:47 PM Age: 3 yrs
By: Vladimir Socor
(...)Belgrade chose Gazprom Neft without holding an international tender for the sale of 51 percent of NIS shares; and it agreed to sell that controlling stake for a mere €400 million ($537 million), even after the international consultants Deloitte & Touche had valued NIS at €2.2 billion ($2.95 billion)last September. By privileging Gazprom over other potential international partners, Belgrade implicitly rewarded Russia for continuing to oppose international recognition of Kosovo; and by selling the controlling stake in NIS at a deeply undervalued price, the Serb government expected Gazprom to reciprocate the favor by building a section of the South Stream gas transportation project in Serbian territory.
Moscow pocketed those concessions but decided at the last moment to break the linkage between the NIS sale and the South Stream project. Moscow’s decision contravenes the January 2008 Russian-Serbian intergovernmental agreement as well as the Serbian parliament’s September 2008 ratification of that agreement. Both sets of documents treated NIS and South Stream as inseparable aspects of the transaction. Indeed, the Russian side had insisted all along that NIS be thrown into the package with the gas project, in effect as a palm-greaser for Gazprom to include Serbia in South Stream. The Serb president and government have now ended up ceding control of NIS for a fraction of its value, without any assurance that Gazprom would or could proceed with South Stream.
Thank you Mr. Ambassador. Your statements almost brought me to tears. He is right. The Serbian elite has abandoned its population in Kosovo and is completely incapable of defending Serbian interests. Our illegal aliens in the south and on this site pump their chest at their victories as if they had anything to do with it. The weakness in our leaders is the only source of your victories, if Serbia had a pro-Serbian gov't then you would not be pumping your chest at all.
Serbs I plead you to give up on this yellow Dyes regime. It has been 10 years since they have been in power and really what has changed? Any increase in living standards you have experienced is only due to the lifting of embargoes. Our actual leaders are responsible for nothing positive in Serbia and have to go.
Let me ask why is it bad for Serbia to turn to Russia but allow itself to be completely exploited by the EU which is a sinking ship. Serbs, you have internet you do not have to get your news from the corrupt Serbian media. So why if you clearly know what is going on in Western Europe you still are not questioning the validity of the "European dream".
Germans, English, Italians all want OUT of the EU does that not tell you something? Russia with the South Stream is about to have even more control over Europe's energy supplies. Having a genuinely pro Russian country in Europe strongly benefits Russia and if it benefits Russia it will do what it can to benefit Serbia. Apart from Russia there are more countries such as the BRIC and our friends at the N.A.M. who would love to enhance cooperation with Serbia. We would not be isolated if we turned our back on the 4th Reich, now is the time to stick our thumb in their eye.
Serbia does NOT NEED THE EU AND NATO. Vote for Dveri Srpske in the next elections and get your country back!
We have been bombed, raped, occupied and brainwashed in over ten years to believe we did all that to ourselves. Quisling-Serbia, the land of zombies & western wannabes.
It take an outside view to know about the slow suicide the western imposed quisling regime are committing to Serbia. Hopefully, Russia can awake it´s southernmost border.
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
(Bloody Mary, 15 September 2011 18:38)
Sorry but there was not any indication that Serbia could have gotten more for NIS than the offer from Gazprom. On top of that, the selling of NIS to the Russians insured that Europe's most important gas pipeline will stretch too a large part of Serbia's territory. What other company could have insured Serbia with energy security than the Russians? Europhiles say that we could have gotten a better deal, yet I have not seen one company that offered us a higher sum and even if they did, there was not a massive pipeline stretching throughout Serbia that came attached to that bid.
So at the end of the day, the Russian deal was the best one on the table. Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
(Ari Gold, 15 September 2011 19:17)
Perhaps this article will answer your question:
http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=34308
I urge the Serbs here to listen to this "Ari Gold". He knows a lot about EU, after all he lives in one of these broken EU countries. He is willing to sacrifice his life in one of these countries (instead of Russia or Serbia) in the name of the greater good, a.k.a saving Serbia from EU.
Sorry but there was not any indication that Serbia could have gotten more for NIS than the offer from Gazprom. On top of that, the selling of NIS to the Russians insured that Europe's most important gas pipeline will stretch too a large part of Serbia's territory. What other company could have insured Serbia with energy security than the Russians? Europhiles say that we could have gotten a better deal, yet I have not seen one company that offered us a higher sum and even if they did, there was not a massive pipeline stretching throughout Serbia that came attached to that bid.
So at the end of the day, the Russian deal was the best one on the table. Do you really think Serbia's yellow subservient government would not have sold NIS to Austrians, Germans or French if it had the chance?
(Ari Gold, 15 September 2011 19:17)
Keep telling yourself that and maybe one day you can swallow that bitter pill.
The fact is Russia took advantage of Serbia at a moment when Serbia needed Russian support in the UNSC or lose Kosovo forever. The problem is it did not work, but only temporarily prevented Kosovo UN membership. The loss of Kosovo is a done deal, it will never be Serbian again.
There was never any open bidding on NIS only an estimate of its value which was more than 3 times what Russia offered.
As far as the pipeline, it probably would have went through Serbia to start with, however will it now. Isn't Romania a big link for the line, will Russia still use that route with Romania signing on with the missile defense shield to protect Europe from countries like (Iran)?
"Are there no Serbs in this hall?," Konuzin exclaimed at one point, speaking "in an emotional manner and raising his voice", according to reports.
He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities.
So are there any serbs ready to sell economic facilities to the Russians?If not, then you are not "serbs". Only Jeremic and the russians are serbs.
At last someone is telling Tadic's administration what the people of Serbia really wants. Tadic is selling out your country.
Soon Kosovo, R Srpska and other Serb areas lost for ever if you do not come together and fight for your country.
'The forum, which was opened this morning by President Boris Tadić, was organized by the Fund for Political Excellence and the European Movement in Serbia.'
And who pays for this fund?
http://www.soros.org/initiatives/thinktank/focus_areas/core/grantees/bfpe_2006
Yeah, that is all you need to know folks. Soros and the anti-Serb hate mongering gang. Konuzin is right, there were probably either no Serbs there, or only self-hating Serbs like Ceda Jovanovic.
Bravo Ambassador Konuzin! Keep on speaking the truth.
How lond has this Russan guy lived in Serbia ?does he not know tha fact that serbs don`t care about Kosovo because its not theirs , and most of them have never been to kosovo !!
============================
This is the most ridiculous argument that keeps coming up.
Hey, most people from Berlin have never been to Munich but does that mean that Munich does not belong to Germany?
You can have the same argument all over the world.
Why do you keep making a fool of yourself by repeating such a ridiculous statement?
I am guessing you are telling us this as our friend.
Right back at ya.
(Peggy, 15 September 2011 23:17)
At least I don't pretend to be one. But if you would sell let's say a share of Serbia's gold reserves for one fifth of the value to me I could also pretend to be your friend. Deal?
He further stated that there were people in Serbia ready to sell economic facilities to "anyone but not to Russians", even though they were aware this would mean the demise of those facilities.
NIS wasn't enough.Putin's tax collector is here.Time to pay for that russian veto.
"Sorry but there was not any indication that Serbia could have gotten more for NIS than the offer from Gazprom. On top of that, the selling of NIS to the Russians insured that Europe's most important gas pipeline will stretch too a large part of Serbia's territory. What other company could have insured Serbia with energy security than the Russians? Europhiles say that we could have gotten a better deal, yet I have not seen one company that offered us a higher sum and even if they did, there was not a massive pipeline stretching throughout Serbia that came attached to that bid."
Ari, obviously you do not live in Serbia. The prices of the natural gas keep increasing every year. From 2009, the natural gas price increased 60%. What was this year's increase? 15% from 1 October?
It's all about profit, as the "slavic brotherhood" is lower on Russia's list of priorities.
I think it's cheaper to go back to electric heating. At least "Elektroprivreda Srbije" is still owned by Serbia.
I wouldn't count on Russia to be my "energy provider" if I was you.
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
(Bloody Mary, 15 September 2011 18:38)
==========================
I am guessing you are telling us this as our friend.
Right back at ya.
You can all say that Russia steals from Serbia etc but sometimes (like others have said) there are no other options at the time when money is needed. I would rather sell to the Russians than to the Germans or UK or US companies.
At least in the end the Russians have enough respect to support Serbia's identity and sovereignty. At least the russians won't go back and change Serbia's history books like the K.Albanians & Turks are currently doing.
You won't be flying that flag around Serbian land for too much longer.
“ If Russia gives back South Ossetia and Abkhazia to Georgia then they can talk, otherwise they should shut up”
*** Before you bark this next time please turn around to be sure there’s nobody there to put your long tongue into your own hole. We will sooner return Georgia back to the mainland Russia. We alone established this Sakartvelo state known as Georgia and we alone established this nation of 11 hostile Kartli tribes and we rented them Abkhasia , Adjaria and the South provinces of Ossetia which had been parts of Russia before in 1801 Irakli-2 managed to beg the Tsar accept Imereti to Russia. We fought twice against Iran (1801-1812 and 1826) to save them from final elimination and it was one of the big mistakes we made in our history.
Another such a mistake was done in 1999 and we have enough will and all kinds of power to replay the game. So Koziunin is right cause Serbian current elites are impotent to defend the interests of those who watch them with a hope. And I wonder how many times Serbs are going to step back in this sh-t ? When a chiken runs away from a cock it cares if it is not running too fast and so do the FM and the PM and the P of Serbia every time when a serious question is raised. They also cooperate with Russia cause the people want them to. But as once F.D. Roosevelt said you cannot deceive big quantity of people for a long period of time. And this is just what Koziunin said without traditional diplomatic reverences.
I agree, with some of the other readers! I live here in U.S. you ought to be either blind or stupid to want to join EU. Here in U.S. we are taught that BRIC countries are the future, (at least in graduate school). E.U. is nothing but our puppet, plus we are bankrupt as it is.
My honest opinion would be to sign your country over to someone else, since your country keeps collapsing and creating new unneeded republics (I know U.S., EU and others are mainly responsible and have been hence why you side with China or Russia).
Idd, Serbs outside Serbia are more patriotic then Serbs of Serbia.
What Serbia should do is Spread their chances, so not 100% for EU or 100% for Russia but go more like 50/50.
It gets better and better. An angry bear preaching to the goats.
(miri, 15 September 2011 17:25)
Why don’t you and your Albanians stand up on your own two feet for a change instead of hiding behind mother and occasionally making stupid threats you can’t keep.
Stop grovelling on all fours to the US and people might call your Albos men.
Konuzin speaking like a true Serb. Had the Russian's defended Serbia from Nato in 98-99 or not pulled out of Kosovo, there wouldn't be a need for these discussions. Too bad Yeltsin was a little too drunk to stand up to the west. Maybe Konuzin should help Serbia by setting up a military pact/treaty, ensuring Serb sovereignty. Place some missle installations in Serbia that would neutralize the ones the West has pointed at Russia.
I digress...
Seriously, when is Serbia going to set up border posts in the areas between the Albos and the Serbs and create unilateral solutions on their own. You can wipe your behind with the paper these negotiations are written on.
From the Serbian side what you have at this forum is hand picked attendees who will kiss western backsides and would sell out their entire families for 30 pieces of silver.
Aleksandr Konuzin’s question falls on deaf ears in a crowd like this lot as most see their future in some dreamland the west will bring where they will live very well and mimic their masters in every way.
“ministers of several European countries, foreign policy and security experts” This sums the majority that attended this meeting which Tadic convened – not a Serb amongst them. These are the same experts who followed the US into two disastrous wars that have cost the west it lead in this world and caused economic collapse in Europe and the US.
Let me say this group of foreigners do not give one hoot about the Serbs and even less about the Albanians. They are interested in keeping their interests on track.
Serbs were abandonded by everyone during the 1999 campaign against them, yet the Serbs still succesfully defended their country and won the war against the strongest armies in the world, Milosevic stayed in power and Kosovo was under UN peacekeeping control(techniqually still under Serb control) Serbs would do anything to stay away from another war
Thank you, Ambassador, for telling the truth, and trying to remind the sell-out Serbs what it means to be a patriot. Serbia's irrational kneeling before the EU is pathetic and bizarre, given that it is becoming clear that the EU will most likely dissolve within ten years due to its intractable sovereign debt issues, or at least develop into a two tier framework where the non-wealthy nations will basically be "second-class citizens". Serbia had better realize soon that you shouldn't embrace those who are committed to dismembering you; but should embrace BRIC and NAM.
Since they have gotten NIS for free now they want the rest...for free. With friends like these Serbia doesn't need enemies.
(Bloody Mary, 15 September 2011 18:38)
As opposed to selling this to the Yanks for 25 million US.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/02/serbia-steel-idUSLDE6510OO20100602
Thats all they want, I also am begining to think not all the trolls are Albanians or Serb here, but some intellectuals looking to monopolize those great deals. Me thinks some of the ruling leaders of Serbia might be getting backhanders for loyal service to some western groups. Wake up Serbs take it back. WW1 the Russians were your real brothers today also. Audit those ruling quislings, their bank accounts and deposits and there you will find all your answers.
These are the same experts who followed the US into two disastrous wars that have cost the west it lead in this world and caused economic collapse in Europe and the US.
(sj, 16 September 2011 07:14)
Ha, ha, ha... the war caused the economic collapse in Europe and US ?!!!!
I undestand your hidden strong desire that US and Europe had never gone to war in Afghanistan so that Bid Laden's network could freely operate there to launch other "9/11"s in US or Europe, but at least find some more intelligent reason than this "economic collapse" non-sense. How can the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan cause the economic collapse considering that, at their peak, they were still the cheapest wars that America has done in the last 100+ years. We have to go back to 1899, to the Spanish-American war to find a major war by America that is cheaper.
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