FM: Kosovo status in accordance with 1244

UN1244 says that Kosovo is part of Serbia, temporarily under UN administration, until a further solution is found. If Kosovo and Serbia agrees on a partition, I don't see a problem why this wouldn't be in accordance with UN1244

"In the end Eu will be forced to be united and also Kosovo will join and get some special status inside EU. "
(Demi, 16 May 2011 18:45)

If you already have those bizarre dreams and illusions at daytime, I wonder what you are dreaming about at nighttime? Little green men on a planet called Kosovo?

Koso and Demi. Kosovo, right now, is a Serbian province governed by UN res 1244. EU, with Eulex, OSCE etc works under 1244. Complicated ? Yes it is, but at least try to understand. Maybe its more easy if you ask some Kfor, Eulex or Osce personell. They can explain. And Demi, for the Kosovo army....well, I must laugh. If they try to cause trouble in some part of Kosovo, Kfor will take help from the Serbian army since they have weekly meetings and an agreement for this since 2008. (You didnt know that did you). ;-)

Who cares about your state policy ? Kosovo will move on an devolpment as a state more and more everyday and you can rely on 1244 how much you want. You will have to stop rely on 1244 when you see the Kosovo army and Prishtina in full control of Northern Kosovo. Then you will notice who is the boss in Kosovo and see if you are ready to do somthing about it.

When every other Balkan country pass your country and become EU member you will be weaker and weaker. All this because of somthing that you will never get ??

In the end Eu will be forced to be united and also Kosovo will join and get some special status inside EU. Serbia will then have to choose between West and East ? Russia who dosent give a damn about Serbia since it has its own problems or EU wich is a natural choice since Serbia are in Europe ?


But Jeremic is just playing tough since it will not go this far as I predict. Serbia will get money to enter EU and recognize Kosovo just like Poland got billions to accept the constitution of EU. Tadic is working in that way to get somthing Extra for recognizing Kosovo. When the moment comes for Serbia to enter Eu then we will see how much money Serbia wants.


Kosovo partition is out of the question since all of Kosovo is part of an independent Kosovo. North Kosovo is just playing a game for the moment because when the law reaches those criminals there holding the people hostage this game will be over.

Why is this clown talking about statuses of others sovereignty? As the clown who asked the International Court of Justice on whether Kosovo's independence violated any "international law" he should know first hand. Kosovo's independence proclaimed by its forefathers did not violate any international laws including Resolution 1244.

I reckon he is trying to provoke us since the heads of the talks between Kosovo and Serbia meet tomorrow.

One question I want to ask this clown is: was Mr. Stefanoviq's recent visit with the Kosovan Institutions, in front of the Kosovan flag, under the Declaration of Independence, was it in "accordance with the Serbian constitution".


Thanks,

One question I want to ask this clown is: was Mr. Stefanoviq's recent visit with the Kosovan Institutions, in front of the Kosovan flag, under the Declaration of Independence, was it in "accordance with the Serbian constitution".


Thanks,
(KOSO, 16 May 2011 21:39)

ej KOSO,
I have written several comments on this issue,including you and some others , but we have yet to read a comment from Serb camp. They are to afraid to admitt the reality. Only b92 posted that pic for few minutes, and I assume they were told by Serb government to remove it quickly.
A pic worth thousand words.

"Why is this clown talking about statuses of others sovereignty? As the clown who asked the International Court of Justice on whether Kosovo's independence violated any "international law" he should know first hand. Kosovo's independence proclaimed by its forefathers did not violate any international laws including Resolution 1244.

I reckon he is trying to provoke us since the heads of the talks between Kosovo and Serbia meet tomorrow.

One question I want to ask this clown is: was Mr. Stefanoviq's recent visit with the Kosovan Institutions, in front of the Kosovan flag, under the Declaration of Independence, was it in "accordance with the Serbian constitution".


Thanks,
(KOSO, 16 May 2011 21:39) "

KOSO,

You may have (or maybe not) overlooked a couple of things:

The ICJ opined that Kosovo's declaration did not violate international law. The ICJ opinion did NOT opine whether Kosovo is a state or not, or whether it is entitled to statehood.

Finally the ICJ's opinion is just that -- an opinion WITHOUT binding power. In contrast to the ICJ ruling that Serbia did not commit genocide in Bosnia which is binding.

I have always wondered when an ICJ's decision is binding (like in Bosnia's suit) and when it is not (as in Kosovo's UDI). Anyone knows and can clarify? Thanks in advance.

"Kosovo partition is out of the question since all of Kosovo is part of an independent Kosovo. North Kosovo is just playing a game for the moment because when the law reaches those criminals there holding the people hostage this game will be over.
(Demi, 16 May 2011 18:45)"

There is only one way to verify whether the majority K-Serbs in the north consider themselves as "hostage" to "those criminals" ..... conduct a free and fair poll ..... bet you that the results will blow your logic to utter smithereens!

lowe,

Serbia asked whether Kosovo's declaration of independence violated any international law. International Court of Justice by a majority vote stated that Kosovo's DOI was in ACCORDANCE with international law INCLUDING resolution 1244. Now some critics (Serbs) have tried to argue that the conclusion places value on the intent and not the action...that's not the case. Although the judges only answered the question which Jeremiq proposed under common law the said action of equitable rights would disagree with the simplicity of this argument. I'll stop before I make this post long and for most commentators confusing.


Thanks,

"lowe,

Serbia asked whether Kosovo's declaration of independence violated any international law. International Court of Justice by a majority vote stated that Kosovo's DOI was in ACCORDANCE with international law INCLUDING resolution 1244. Now some critics (Serbs) have tried to argue that the conclusion places value on the intent and not the action...that's not the case. Although the judges only answered the question which Jeremiq proposed under common law the said action of equitable rights would disagree with the simplicity of this argument. I'll stop before I make this post long and for most commentators confusing.


Thanks,
(KOSO, 17 May 2011 13:57) "

I think the only one here who is confused is yourself. The ICJ passed an opinion about the declaration, it did not pass any opinion about the right to statehood.

And I didn't know that the concepts of common law and equity applies to the ICJ?????? Can you show me the source of this new info of yours?

Lastly, as I stated earlier, the ICJ passed a non-binding opinion. You do know the meaning of "non-binding" right?

Partition and exchange North Kosovo with Presheva Valley and be done with it.

To make demi to understand what is 1244 -
The main effects of Resolution 1244 were to:
1.Place Kosovo under interim UN administration
2.Authorize a NATO-led peacekeeping force in Kosovo
3.Allow for the return of an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel to maintain a presence at Serbian Patrimonial sites and key border crossings.
4.Direct UNMIK to establish provisional institutions of local self-government in Kosovo
5.Reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia i.e., Kosovo remains part of the FRY, to which Serbia is now the recognized successor state [7]) and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2 of UNSCR 1244
5.Require the UN to assure the safe and unimpeded return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes in Kosovo and to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of the province.
6.Require that the KLA and other armed Kosovo Albanian groups be demilitarized
7.Authorize the United Nations to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status.
So according to this, neither you nor the rest of the world should accept the independence of kosovo.As a matter of fact , you are a province of republic of Serbia and it will remain as that forever.!P.S. if you are thinking about attacking Serbs, you better think about that twice.As the Albanians became barbarians about months ago .More and more problems for you Albanians .Kosovo is Serbia .That is how the world know !

A good summary of UN1244 by 'N De silva' and 'a new day'


Many things are not fulfilled from it, as we can see:

- democratially (local) self-governement: election faking, not really democratic.
- final settlement for Kosovo through an international meeting: Not fulfilled, only a unilateral independence.
- where is the 'agreed number' of YU military present in Kosovo to protect Serbian churches and monastaries against Albanian mob and vandals?
- safe return of refugees and IDPS (some 100,000s of IDP Serbs) still in Serbia, with no option to return safely to Kosovo.

"It is a term no Serbian understood before the opinion, back when you all could not conceive that you were wrong on the Kosovo issue and all were posting that the opinion meant everything. Funny how things have changed.
2 years ago, not a single one on your side would have said such a thing, including you.
(pss, 18 May 2011 03:50) "

At the end of the day, it is still non-binding, however much that irks you. All your huffing and puffing ain't gonna change this fact and so you might as well get over it for your own sanity!

"No huffing and puffing here, I always said the opinion was an opinion only and would mean nothing in the end. I did not have to change my philosophy. It was your camp that was claiming that it would open the door for Serbia to sue the US and company and recognitions would be reversed.
I still say it was a waste of energy on the part of Serbia, and if the opinion was different we would be in exactly the same place today.
(pss, 18 May 2011 20:08)"

well, if you have bothered to check the archives, you will find that I personally had never wrote anything about Serbia suing the Yankees or the reversals of recognitions. Nor did I ever wrote that it was a great idea for Serbia to submit that question to ICJ. So please stop putting words into my mouth and conveniently lumping me into this vague "your camp" category -- it is a blatantly dishonest thing for you to do.

You may be interested to know that I never did think it was a good idea to seek the ICJ's opinion when it would be unenforceable. What I would have been interested to know however is when the ICJ's views are binding (as in Bosnia's suit against Serbia) and when it is not (as in the opinion of Kosovo's udi).

Let's get one thing straight here, Kosovo did not 'declare' independence, they were told by their masters that they were allowed to declare independence.

(N De silva, 17 May 2011 03:39)
# Comment link

In order to help you understand 1244 even better some items you omitted:
1.Demands that the FRY put an immediate end to all violence and oppression in Kosovo.
2. Begin and complete a verifiable phased withdrawal of all military, police, and paramiltary units from Kosovo.
3 Assist in the establishment of an autonomous self govt in Kosovo.
4. Transfer all authorities to the established self govt of Kosovo.
5. Take into full account of the Rambouillet Accords which further states:
a. Kosovo will have the ability to make laws not subject to revision by Serbia.
b. Citizens in Kosovo will govern themselves democratically through Kosovo institutions.
c. As international meeting will determine the mechanism for a final settlement of Kosovo. (meaning Kosovo status has no predetermined end. Indpendence is an option and remaining a part of Serbia is not guaranteed.
6. Return of personnel for the "4 limited functions" will be an agreed number in the hundreds and not thousands.
7. International military presence to insure the withdrawal and prevent the return of Yugoslavian military and police forces except for the agreed number for the 4 limited functions.
8. Safe return of all refugees--who at that time were majority of Albanians as the Serbians fled after the enactment of 1244 when Serb forces withdrew.

Just some of the points the Serbian readers tend to miss.

"FM: Kosovo status in accordance with 1244"

Yeah, it means a lot, especially when you say it! :)

Many things are not fulfilled from it, as we can see:

- democratially (local) self-governement: election faking, not really democratic.
- final settlement for Kosovo through an international meeting: Not fulfilled, only a unilateral independence.
- where is the 'agreed number' of YU military present in Kosovo to protect Serbian churches and monastaries against Albanian mob and vandals?
- safe return of refugees and IDPS (some 100,000s of IDP Serbs) still in Serbia, with no option to return safely to Kosovo.
(Top, 17 May 2011 18:18)
You are right about the UDI since the international community did not make a decision on how to settle it after 9 years when it was to be decided by 3, someone had to make an initiative. At least whether you agree as to its legality, actuality, sustainability, you have to admit it did get the ball moving again.
To date Serbia has never requested to send any personnel into Kosovo to be agreed upon. We are speaking official requests by the govt, not by nationalists who want to restart their agenda. Also I think there is a disagreement of what "maintaining a presence" actually means. To you it is forces moving in and taking control, I think the true meaning is more liasons working with and under the directions of the international security forces not working autonomously.
Also as I said before the bulk of Serbian refugees left after the signing of the document, while I agree to their return, most on your side assume these are the people for which the document is referencing but it was speaking primarily of those that were displaced by Milosevic forces not for those who were to leave in the future primarily as a result of the document itself.

The bottom line is that 1244 was a blueprint to restore peace and security to Kosovo, and build a democratic self governing entity without a preconceived outcome to status. ie, the intention of the document itself was never to guarantee an independent Kosovo nor that it would remain a province of Serbia.

A good summary of UN1244 by 'N De silva' and 'a new day'


Many things are not fulfilled from it, as we can see:

- democratially (local) self-governement: election faking, not really democratic.
- final settlement for Kosovo through an international meeting: Not fulfilled, only a unilateral independence.
- where is the 'agreed number' of YU military present in Kosovo to protect Serbian churches and monastaries against Albanian mob and vandals?
- safe return of refugees and IDPS (some 100,000s of IDP Serbs) still in Serbia, with no option to return safely to Kosovo.
(Top, 17 May 2011 18:18)

Serbs will not return in Kosovo any time soon just as they do not return to Croatia. Even though many Serbs do not accept this 80% of Serbians in Kosovo were mobilized and had Police duties. So hence in some form involved in the persecution of K-albanians.

Not fair for them to return and most Serbs have sold their house, apartments and got good cash for it. Just like many Albanians in Medvedje or Bujanovc. life goes on.

I said it many times North Kosovo is not split just due to minerals that USA/UK want look they went to war in Libya to kick Chinise out of tose oil fields why whould they let Serbia(russia) get them you will be lucky if you get autonomy. Russia does nto care for Serbia or Kosovo but they want geopolitical and Economic benefits that Serbia is handing over or K-Albanians to Americans.

You will see Serbia has no guts it changed its resolution and look hot they scramble to keep visas with EU states this is nothing but a threat to Serbia and they are good boys where is powerful Russia to stop oil to EU so they keep visa free with Serbia or Kosovo as part of Serbia.

EU is nothing but a slave of US and they do its dirty work.

Lastly, as I stated earlier, the ICJ passed a non-binding opinion. You do know the meaning of "non-binding" right?
(lowe, 17 May 2011 14:33)
It is a term no Serbian understood before the opinion, back when you all could not conceive that you were wrong on the Kosovo issue and all were posting that the opinion meant everything. Funny how things have changed.
2 years ago, not a single one on your side would have said such a thing, including you.

Ahtisaari plan has been drafted based on, and was derived as authorized by UN Res. 1244 which specifically calls for a conference/dialogue which will decide the final solution for Kosovo.

In accordance with the above, UNSC authorized Ahtisaari to start the dialogue/conference, which took place in Vienna, and where Serbia participated. Now, the Serb delegation, lead by Kostunica, chose not to participate constructively, aware that they will never gain control of Kosovo - in other words, they had nothing to lose. Thus, the Ahtisaari plan was shoved down their throats, just like the solutions for other Serbian conflicts in Croatia and Bosnia.

When will the Serb leaders learn that by being childish and stubborn, they will only lose?

This is very simple folks:
- You refused the Krajina solutions; you were kicked out of Croatia.
- You refused Rambuillet solution (which would have kept Kosovo within Yugoslavia) and you were bombed.
- You are refusing the Ahtisaari plan (which provides some really generous rights to Serbs, even in Kosovo's gov't), which will eventually lead to unification of Kosovo with Albania (an easy way for Kosovo gain UN representation). By the way, Kosovo’s government already began the constitutional changes which will allow this.

At the end of the day, it is still non-binding, however much that irks you. All your huffing and puffing ain't gonna change this fact and so you might as well get over it for your own sanity!
(lowe, 18 May 2011 11:52)
No huffing and puffing here, I always said the opinion was an opinion only and would mean nothing in the end. I did not have to change my philosophy. It was your camp that was claiming that it would open the door for Serbia to sue the US and company and recognitions would be reversed.
I still say it was a waste of energy on the part of Serbia, and if the opinion was different we would be in exactly the same place today.

You may be interested to know that I never did think it was a good idea to seek the ICJ's opinion when it would be unenforceable. What I would have been interested to know however is when the ICJ's views are binding (as in Bosnia's suit against Serbia) and when it is not (as in the opinion of Kosovo's udi).
(lowe, 19 May 2011 11:44)
The answer to that question is there are two types of cases before the ICJ Contentious cases and Advisory opinion cases.
Contentious cases can only be between either 2 UN member states or 2 states that have accepted the jurisdiction of the court.
Advisory opinions can be brought against agencies or organizations as well as states.
Contentious cases are binding -as in Bosnia vs Serbia, Advisory is just the courts interpretation of the law and is in no way binding.
Serbia chose the advisory route most likely for 2 reasons, To bring it as a contentious case would have been an acknowledgement that Kosovo was a state-a ruling against Kosovo would have negated that. However a ruling for Kosovo would have been seen as a legal statement that Kosovo is a legitimate state and Serbia would now be bound to honor that.

"FM: Kosovo status in accordance with 1244"

Good, Kosovo's current status is based on Kosovo's UDI which is in accordance with 1244. So finally all parties agree and case closed. What Vuk wants has already been achieved.

I have always wondered when an ICJ's decision is binding (like in Bosnia's suit) and when it is not (as in Kosovo's UDI). Anyone knows and can clarify? Thanks in advance.
(lowe, 17 May 2011 11:45)

Lowe, you are absolutely right… The Kosovo decision of the ICJ is not binding. However, it is the most authoritative opinion on the matter. If anybody has doubts on whether Kosovo’s UDI was legal or illegal, he or she can choose that one of the following is most likely correct: (i) Serbia’s opinion that it was illegal, (ii) Kosovo’s opinion that is was legal, (iii) ICJ’s opinion that it was legal.

Now, I don’t think that anybody in his/her sane mind would think that Kosovo’s and Serbia’s opinions are impartial :)…

In addition, the ICJ Opinion, even though not binding, sets precedent. It is very possible that contentious cases are going to be instituted before ICJ or other international courts and arbitration panels in the future regarding practical issues. For example, Serbia may sue Company X that illegally acquired the Kosovo telecom. The case will ultimately depend on whether Kosovo’s UDI was legal or illegal under international law. And the ICJ or other international courts or arbitration panels will defer to the ICJ Advisory Opinion on the matter.

ICJ Advisory opinions, even though not binding, do make international law over time. Just consider famous advisory opinions like Western Sahara (1974), Legality of the Threat or Use of Nuclear Weapons (1995) or Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (2003). Their conclusions or principles are cited over and over as basis of ICJ decisions in contentious cases (even if totally unrelated to the issues above as to the facts). Even in Serbia’s arguments for the Kosovo case, past ICJ Advisory opinions are often cited. That is because, be that a Contentious or Advisory case, the ICJ will not go against an Opinion (Contentiou or Advisory) made in the past by the ICJ itself.

Who cares about your state policy ? Kosovo will move on an devolpment as a state more and more everyday and you can rely on 1244 how much you want. You will have to stop rely on 1244 when you see the Kosovo army and Prishtina in full control of Northern Kosovo. Then you will notice who is the boss in Kosovo and see if you are ready to do somthing about it.

When every other Balkan country pass your country and become EU member you will be weaker and weaker. All this because of somthing that you will never get ??

In the end Eu will be forced to be united and also Kosovo will join and get some special status inside EU. Serbia will then have to choose between West and East ? Russia who dosent give a damn about Serbia since it has its own problems or EU wich is a natural choice since Serbia are in Europe ?


But Jeremic is just playing tough since it will not go this far as I predict. Serbia will get money to enter EU and recognize Kosovo just like Poland got billions to accept the constitution of EU. Tadic is working in that way to get somthing Extra for recognizing Kosovo. When the moment comes for Serbia to enter Eu then we will see how much money Serbia wants.


Kosovo partition is out of the question since all of Kosovo is part of an independent Kosovo. North Kosovo is just playing a game for the moment because when the law reaches those criminals there holding the people hostage this game will be over.

Partition and exchange North Kosovo with Presheva Valley and be done with it.

Why is this clown talking about statuses of others sovereignty? As the clown who asked the International Court of Justice on whether Kosovo's independence violated any "international law" he should know first hand. Kosovo's independence proclaimed by its forefathers did not violate any international laws including Resolution 1244.

I reckon he is trying to provoke us since the heads of the talks between Kosovo and Serbia meet tomorrow.

One question I want to ask this clown is: was Mr. Stefanoviq's recent visit with the Kosovan Institutions, in front of the Kosovan flag, under the Declaration of Independence, was it in "accordance with the Serbian constitution".


Thanks,

UN1244 says that Kosovo is part of Serbia, temporarily under UN administration, until a further solution is found. If Kosovo and Serbia agrees on a partition, I don't see a problem why this wouldn't be in accordance with UN1244

One question I want to ask this clown is: was Mr. Stefanoviq's recent visit with the Kosovan Institutions, in front of the Kosovan flag, under the Declaration of Independence, was it in "accordance with the Serbian constitution".


Thanks,
(KOSO, 16 May 2011 21:39)

ej KOSO,
I have written several comments on this issue,including you and some others , but we have yet to read a comment from Serb camp. They are to afraid to admitt the reality. Only b92 posted that pic for few minutes, and I assume they were told by Serb government to remove it quickly.
A pic worth thousand words.

"In the end Eu will be forced to be united and also Kosovo will join and get some special status inside EU. "
(Demi, 16 May 2011 18:45)

If you already have those bizarre dreams and illusions at daytime, I wonder what you are dreaming about at nighttime? Little green men on a planet called Kosovo?

lowe,

Serbia asked whether Kosovo's declaration of independence violated any international law. International Court of Justice by a majority vote stated that Kosovo's DOI was in ACCORDANCE with international law INCLUDING resolution 1244. Now some critics (Serbs) have tried to argue that the conclusion places value on the intent and not the action...that's not the case. Although the judges only answered the question which Jeremiq proposed under common law the said action of equitable rights would disagree with the simplicity of this argument. I'll stop before I make this post long and for most commentators confusing.


Thanks,

Koso and Demi. Kosovo, right now, is a Serbian province governed by UN res 1244. EU, with Eulex, OSCE etc works under 1244. Complicated ? Yes it is, but at least try to understand. Maybe its more easy if you ask some Kfor, Eulex or Osce personell. They can explain. And Demi, for the Kosovo army....well, I must laugh. If they try to cause trouble in some part of Kosovo, Kfor will take help from the Serbian army since they have weekly meetings and an agreement for this since 2008. (You didnt know that did you). ;-)

"Why is this clown talking about statuses of others sovereignty? As the clown who asked the International Court of Justice on whether Kosovo's independence violated any "international law" he should know first hand. Kosovo's independence proclaimed by its forefathers did not violate any international laws including Resolution 1244.

I reckon he is trying to provoke us since the heads of the talks between Kosovo and Serbia meet tomorrow.

One question I want to ask this clown is: was Mr. Stefanoviq's recent visit with the Kosovan Institutions, in front of the Kosovan flag, under the Declaration of Independence, was it in "accordance with the Serbian constitution".


Thanks,
(KOSO, 16 May 2011 21:39) "

KOSO,

You may have (or maybe not) overlooked a couple of things:

The ICJ opined that Kosovo's declaration did not violate international law. The ICJ opinion did NOT opine whether Kosovo is a state or not, or whether it is entitled to statehood.

Finally the ICJ's opinion is just that -- an opinion WITHOUT binding power. In contrast to the ICJ ruling that Serbia did not commit genocide in Bosnia which is binding.

I have always wondered when an ICJ's decision is binding (like in Bosnia's suit) and when it is not (as in Kosovo's UDI). Anyone knows and can clarify? Thanks in advance.

Let's get one thing straight here, Kosovo did not 'declare' independence, they were told by their masters that they were allowed to declare independence.

"lowe,

Serbia asked whether Kosovo's declaration of independence violated any international law. International Court of Justice by a majority vote stated that Kosovo's DOI was in ACCORDANCE with international law INCLUDING resolution 1244. Now some critics (Serbs) have tried to argue that the conclusion places value on the intent and not the action...that's not the case. Although the judges only answered the question which Jeremiq proposed under common law the said action of equitable rights would disagree with the simplicity of this argument. I'll stop before I make this post long and for most commentators confusing.


Thanks,
(KOSO, 17 May 2011 13:57) "

I think the only one here who is confused is yourself. The ICJ passed an opinion about the declaration, it did not pass any opinion about the right to statehood.

And I didn't know that the concepts of common law and equity applies to the ICJ?????? Can you show me the source of this new info of yours?

Lastly, as I stated earlier, the ICJ passed a non-binding opinion. You do know the meaning of "non-binding" right?

"FM: Kosovo status in accordance with 1244"

Yeah, it means a lot, especially when you say it! :)

A good summary of UN1244 by 'N De silva' and 'a new day'


Many things are not fulfilled from it, as we can see:

- democratially (local) self-governement: election faking, not really democratic.
- final settlement for Kosovo through an international meeting: Not fulfilled, only a unilateral independence.
- where is the 'agreed number' of YU military present in Kosovo to protect Serbian churches and monastaries against Albanian mob and vandals?
- safe return of refugees and IDPS (some 100,000s of IDP Serbs) still in Serbia, with no option to return safely to Kosovo.

You may be interested to know that I never did think it was a good idea to seek the ICJ's opinion when it would be unenforceable. What I would have been interested to know however is when the ICJ's views are binding (as in Bosnia's suit against Serbia) and when it is not (as in the opinion of Kosovo's udi).
(lowe, 19 May 2011 11:44)
The answer to that question is there are two types of cases before the ICJ Contentious cases and Advisory opinion cases.
Contentious cases can only be between either 2 UN member states or 2 states that have accepted the jurisdiction of the court.
Advisory opinions can be brought against agencies or organizations as well as states.
Contentious cases are binding -as in Bosnia vs Serbia, Advisory is just the courts interpretation of the law and is in no way binding.
Serbia chose the advisory route most likely for 2 reasons, To bring it as a contentious case would have been an acknowledgement that Kosovo was a state-a ruling against Kosovo would have negated that. However a ruling for Kosovo would have been seen as a legal statement that Kosovo is a legitimate state and Serbia would now be bound to honor that.

(N De silva, 17 May 2011 03:39)
# Comment link

In order to help you understand 1244 even better some items you omitted:
1.Demands that the FRY put an immediate end to all violence and oppression in Kosovo.
2. Begin and complete a verifiable phased withdrawal of all military, police, and paramiltary units from Kosovo.
3 Assist in the establishment of an autonomous self govt in Kosovo.
4. Transfer all authorities to the established self govt of Kosovo.
5. Take into full account of the Rambouillet Accords which further states:
a. Kosovo will have the ability to make laws not subject to revision by Serbia.
b. Citizens in Kosovo will govern themselves democratically through Kosovo institutions.
c. As international meeting will determine the mechanism for a final settlement of Kosovo. (meaning Kosovo status has no predetermined end. Indpendence is an option and remaining a part of Serbia is not guaranteed.
6. Return of personnel for the "4 limited functions" will be an agreed number in the hundreds and not thousands.
7. International military presence to insure the withdrawal and prevent the return of Yugoslavian military and police forces except for the agreed number for the 4 limited functions.
8. Safe return of all refugees--who at that time were majority of Albanians as the Serbians fled after the enactment of 1244 when Serb forces withdrew.

Just some of the points the Serbian readers tend to miss.

Lastly, as I stated earlier, the ICJ passed a non-binding opinion. You do know the meaning of "non-binding" right?
(lowe, 17 May 2011 14:33)
It is a term no Serbian understood before the opinion, back when you all could not conceive that you were wrong on the Kosovo issue and all were posting that the opinion meant everything. Funny how things have changed.
2 years ago, not a single one on your side would have said such a thing, including you.

At the end of the day, it is still non-binding, however much that irks you. All your huffing and puffing ain't gonna change this fact and so you might as well get over it for your own sanity!
(lowe, 18 May 2011 11:52)
No huffing and puffing here, I always said the opinion was an opinion only and would mean nothing in the end. I did not have to change my philosophy. It was your camp that was claiming that it would open the door for Serbia to sue the US and company and recognitions would be reversed.
I still say it was a waste of energy on the part of Serbia, and if the opinion was different we would be in exactly the same place today.

"Kosovo partition is out of the question since all of Kosovo is part of an independent Kosovo. North Kosovo is just playing a game for the moment because when the law reaches those criminals there holding the people hostage this game will be over.
(Demi, 16 May 2011 18:45)"

There is only one way to verify whether the majority K-Serbs in the north consider themselves as "hostage" to "those criminals" ..... conduct a free and fair poll ..... bet you that the results will blow your logic to utter smithereens!

To make demi to understand what is 1244 -
The main effects of Resolution 1244 were to:
1.Place Kosovo under interim UN administration
2.Authorize a NATO-led peacekeeping force in Kosovo
3.Allow for the return of an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel to maintain a presence at Serbian Patrimonial sites and key border crossings.
4.Direct UNMIK to establish provisional institutions of local self-government in Kosovo
5.Reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia i.e., Kosovo remains part of the FRY, to which Serbia is now the recognized successor state [7]) and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2 of UNSCR 1244
5.Require the UN to assure the safe and unimpeded return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes in Kosovo and to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of the province.
6.Require that the KLA and other armed Kosovo Albanian groups be demilitarized
7.Authorize the United Nations to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status.
So according to this, neither you nor the rest of the world should accept the independence of kosovo.As a matter of fact , you are a province of republic of Serbia and it will remain as that forever.!P.S. if you are thinking about attacking Serbs, you better think about that twice.As the Albanians became barbarians about months ago .More and more problems for you Albanians .Kosovo is Serbia .That is how the world know !

Many things are not fulfilled from it, as we can see:

- democratially (local) self-governement: election faking, not really democratic.
- final settlement for Kosovo through an international meeting: Not fulfilled, only a unilateral independence.
- where is the 'agreed number' of YU military present in Kosovo to protect Serbian churches and monastaries against Albanian mob and vandals?
- safe return of refugees and IDPS (some 100,000s of IDP Serbs) still in Serbia, with no option to return safely to Kosovo.
(Top, 17 May 2011 18:18)
You are right about the UDI since the international community did not make a decision on how to settle it after 9 years when it was to be decided by 3, someone had to make an initiative. At least whether you agree as to its legality, actuality, sustainability, you have to admit it did get the ball moving again.
To date Serbia has never requested to send any personnel into Kosovo to be agreed upon. We are speaking official requests by the govt, not by nationalists who want to restart their agenda. Also I think there is a disagreement of what "maintaining a presence" actually means. To you it is forces moving in and taking control, I think the true meaning is more liasons working with and under the directions of the international security forces not working autonomously.
Also as I said before the bulk of Serbian refugees left after the signing of the document, while I agree to their return, most on your side assume these are the people for which the document is referencing but it was speaking primarily of those that were displaced by Milosevic forces not for those who were to leave in the future primarily as a result of the document itself.

The bottom line is that 1244 was a blueprint to restore peace and security to Kosovo, and build a democratic self governing entity without a preconceived outcome to status. ie, the intention of the document itself was never to guarantee an independent Kosovo nor that it would remain a province of Serbia.

A good summary of UN1244 by 'N De silva' and 'a new day'


Many things are not fulfilled from it, as we can see:

- democratially (local) self-governement: election faking, not really democratic.
- final settlement for Kosovo through an international meeting: Not fulfilled, only a unilateral independence.
- where is the 'agreed number' of YU military present in Kosovo to protect Serbian churches and monastaries against Albanian mob and vandals?
- safe return of refugees and IDPS (some 100,000s of IDP Serbs) still in Serbia, with no option to return safely to Kosovo.
(Top, 17 May 2011 18:18)

Serbs will not return in Kosovo any time soon just as they do not return to Croatia. Even though many Serbs do not accept this 80% of Serbians in Kosovo were mobilized and had Police duties. So hence in some form involved in the persecution of K-albanians.

Not fair for them to return and most Serbs have sold their house, apartments and got good cash for it. Just like many Albanians in Medvedje or Bujanovc. life goes on.

I said it many times North Kosovo is not split just due to minerals that USA/UK want look they went to war in Libya to kick Chinise out of tose oil fields why whould they let Serbia(russia) get them you will be lucky if you get autonomy. Russia does nto care for Serbia or Kosovo but they want geopolitical and Economic benefits that Serbia is handing over or K-Albanians to Americans.

You will see Serbia has no guts it changed its resolution and look hot they scramble to keep visas with EU states this is nothing but a threat to Serbia and they are good boys where is powerful Russia to stop oil to EU so they keep visa free with Serbia or Kosovo as part of Serbia.

EU is nothing but a slave of US and they do its dirty work.

Ahtisaari plan has been drafted based on, and was derived as authorized by UN Res. 1244 which specifically calls for a conference/dialogue which will decide the final solution for Kosovo.

In accordance with the above, UNSC authorized Ahtisaari to start the dialogue/conference, which took place in Vienna, and where Serbia participated. Now, the Serb delegation, lead by Kostunica, chose not to participate constructively, aware that they will never gain control of Kosovo - in other words, they had nothing to lose. Thus, the Ahtisaari plan was shoved down their throats, just like the solutions for other Serbian conflicts in Croatia and Bosnia.

When will the Serb leaders learn that by being childish and stubborn, they will only lose?

This is very simple folks:
- You refused the Krajina solutions; you were kicked out of Croatia.
- You refused Rambuillet solution (which would have kept Kosovo within Yugoslavia) and you were bombed.
- You are refusing the Ahtisaari plan (which provides some really generous rights to Serbs, even in Kosovo's gov't), which will eventually lead to unification of Kosovo with Albania (an easy way for Kosovo gain UN representation). By the way, Kosovo’s government already began the constitutional changes which will allow this.

"It is a term no Serbian understood before the opinion, back when you all could not conceive that you were wrong on the Kosovo issue and all were posting that the opinion meant everything. Funny how things have changed.
2 years ago, not a single one on your side would have said such a thing, including you.
(pss, 18 May 2011 03:50) "

At the end of the day, it is still non-binding, however much that irks you. All your huffing and puffing ain't gonna change this fact and so you might as well get over it for your own sanity!

"No huffing and puffing here, I always said the opinion was an opinion only and would mean nothing in the end. I did not have to change my philosophy. It was your camp that was claiming that it would open the door for Serbia to sue the US and company and recognitions would be reversed.
I still say it was a waste of energy on the part of Serbia, and if the opinion was different we would be in exactly the same place today.
(pss, 18 May 2011 20:08)"

well, if you have bothered to check the archives, you will find that I personally had never wrote anything about Serbia suing the Yankees or the reversals of recognitions. Nor did I ever wrote that it was a great idea for Serbia to submit that question to ICJ. So please stop putting words into my mouth and conveniently lumping me into this vague "your camp" category -- it is a blatantly dishonest thing for you to do.

You may be interested to know that I never did think it was a good idea to seek the ICJ's opinion when it would be unenforceable. What I would have been interested to know however is when the ICJ's views are binding (as in Bosnia's suit against Serbia) and when it is not (as in the opinion of Kosovo's udi).

"FM: Kosovo status in accordance with 1244"

Good, Kosovo's current status is based on Kosovo's UDI which is in accordance with 1244. So finally all parties agree and case closed. What Vuk wants has already been achieved.

I have always wondered when an ICJ's decision is binding (like in Bosnia's suit) and when it is not (as in Kosovo's UDI). Anyone knows and can clarify? Thanks in advance.
(lowe, 17 May 2011 11:45)

Lowe, you are absolutely right… The Kosovo decision of the ICJ is not binding. However, it is the most authoritative opinion on the matter. If anybody has doubts on whether Kosovo’s UDI was legal or illegal, he or she can choose that one of the following is most likely correct: (i) Serbia’s opinion that it was illegal, (ii) Kosovo’s opinion that is was legal, (iii) ICJ’s opinion that it was legal.

Now, I don’t think that anybody in his/her sane mind would think that Kosovo’s and Serbia’s opinions are impartial :)…

In addition, the ICJ Opinion, even though not binding, sets precedent. It is very possible that contentious cases are going to be instituted before ICJ or other international courts and arbitration panels in the future regarding practical issues. For example, Serbia may sue Company X that illegally acquired the Kosovo telecom. The case will ultimately depend on whether Kosovo’s UDI was legal or illegal under international law. And the ICJ or other international courts or arbitration panels will defer to the ICJ Advisory Opinion on the matter.

ICJ Advisory opinions, even though not binding, do make international law over time. Just consider famous advisory opinions like Western Sahara (1974), Legality of the Threat or Use of Nuclear Weapons (1995) or Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (2003). Their conclusions or principles are cited over and over as basis of ICJ decisions in contentious cases (even if totally unrelated to the issues above as to the facts). Even in Serbia’s arguments for the Kosovo case, past ICJ Advisory opinions are often cited. That is because, be that a Contentious or Advisory case, the ICJ will not go against an Opinion (Contentiou or Advisory) made in the past by the ICJ itself.