"No Kosovo recognition regardless of ICJ"

Who needs recognition from Serbia? We just need to crack Russia and Kosovo will have a UN seat. What would Serbia do then ?


But this was a poor statment by a poor foreign minister who him self asked the court for it's opinion. Now he dosen't want to accept the rule of that opinion ?

God bless people who dosent have to deal with hypocrit serbs.

What a nice philosophy Mr. Jeremic has got. First he does everything to have an ICJ- opinion and then he says he doesn´t want to respect that opinion.
What a hypocrite.

Demi if you look at it that way all Serbia really has to do is to 'crack' the USA and the whole independence project would come tumbling down.

Of course its very easy to talk about 'cracking' Russia or the USA, but its very difficult to achieve.

.. and the Kosovo "Government" will claim the independence regardless of the ICJ ruling.

So, what will change? Nothing!

"To the Albanian commentators here who ask is Serbia hypocritical - I say look in the mirror.

Serbia is just taking your lead in being unilateral in its decision making. Why not? stubborness seems to have paid off for the Albanians (so far), they figured they might as well have a go too.

If the ICJ rules that Kosovo IS part of Serbia (it has to be at least a good chance given the black and white wording of 1244), can we then assume you will fold away your Albanian flags and raise the Serbian one again?

I didn't think so.
(commentator, 1 July 2010 15:08) "

The point you are missing is that albanians did not ask ICJ for its opinion....we always said the courts opinion will not change our views.

But if Serbia has asked this institution for its opinion that it has to respect its decision. Otherwise it is like betting and then asking for your money back if you don't win!

So, Serbia will accept the courts decision if its in its favour, but it won't if its not??!

I can't say I am suprised.

Hahaha team Albania where do you make this stuff up??? Seriously???

If you had any creditable knowledge China will never recognise Kosovo because of Taiwan and Tibet! Now China is not going to recognise Kosovo for the sake of pleasing USA! Also you would also know a large amount of American businesses are owned by China! So China is no goin to create a rod for its own back because you think its scared of USA.

And for Russia how many times have Russian officials said they will back Serbia over Kosovo here is a few quotes for you delusional Albanians

On 15 July 2008, President Dmitry Medvedev stated in a major foreign policy speech "For the EU, Kosovo is almost what Iraq is to the United States... This is the latest example of the undermining of international law

On 19 February 2009, Hashim Thaçi announced that Russia is planning the recognition of Kosovo.[339] The Minister of Foreign Affairs of Russia, Sergey Lavrov, responded on the following day by saying "I think Mr. Thaci is indulging in wishful thinking... Mr. Thaci is the last person to make statements on behalf of the Russian Federation" and that "When discussing the problem of Kosovo, the Russian side confirms that our position remains the same and supports the settlement of this problem in accordance with Security Council Resolution 1244. Our support for Serbia's course of action in defending its sovereignty and territorial integrity also stays firm"

On 29 November 2009, the Russian ambassador to Serbia Aleksandr Konuzin said that Russia will continue to help Serbia defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. He also said that “Kosovo echoes in the hearts of all Russians with the same pain as it does in your hearts

Also im sure Serbia and China are signing and making business deals! Whos doing business deals with the clowns Pristina

The Dragon and The Bear are growing stronger!

Long Live Serbia, Serbs and Vasojevici!

“You can forget China. If Kosova UN membership will go right now in front of UNSC,China will obstain but will never use a veto. Once ICJ comes in favor of Kosova/o, China is all game and will even recognize Kosova/o. China will use the ICJ opinion as an excuse to recognize K.
(Kosova-USA, 1 July 2010 13:11)”

I think China's stance on Kosovo is crystal clear:

http://de-construct.net/?p=5631

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=12&dd=07&nav_id=63568

Do you have any sources that back up your claims that China will abstain and not veto and that they will even recognize Kosovo when the ICJ votes in favour of Kosovo (and proof for this)?

"I don't think China would go against US and the most powerful countrys of the world like UK, Japan etc for the sake of Serbia. The chines and the russian leaders are not stupid to belive in some fairytale that Kosovo people and their leaders will accept for Kosovo to go under serbian rule. Kosovo independence and an multi-ethnic country with equal rights for all it's citizens was the best compromise wich could be brought to reality. Hey even the flag en the national song is neutral on etnicity. Take it or leave it because in the end majority citizens of Kosovo should choose their faith and not some butch of radicals siting in Belgrade.


When Kosovo reach enonomic equalty with Serbia and other regional countrys and becomes a real regional player even Serbia will see that this ''war for Kosovo'' have failed already in 1989 and maybe even before that.


I don't think any serbs should count on Spain,Greece,Russia or China for that matter. This countrys is nothing without the major players of the world like US,UK,France and Germany.
(Demi, 1 July 2010 13:22)

You seem to have too much faith in the West that they would be willing to spoil their relations with countries like Russia and China over Kosovo, as if Kosovo is worth the ties of the latter.

I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Spain, Romania, Slovakia and Greece remain integrated in both the EU and NATO, which is proof enough that Kosovo is hardly an issue to, oh, I don't know, kick them out.

Ask yourself, the West has a choice, either Kosovo, or Spain, Greece and Romania? I think it's pretty clear, and as are their stances.

China is a rising superpower and you clearly underestimate their economic influence on a global scale (especially now during this economic crisis), not to mention that their economy is considerably larger than those of both UK and Japan.

Military-wise, they are the largest army on this planet, a nuclear power and most definitely not to be put in the same category as either UK or Japan. It is only truly the US that can beat China in a war.

They have are also part of the SCO (together with Central Asian states and Russia), and maintain good ties with pretty much the entire non-alligned world. They have a part to play in the economies of the West (especially in terms of production), and it would be a huge understatement to assume that the US would sever all of this in favour of, no offense, Kosovo.

Russia is essentially Europe's oil and gas bloodline. They too have an incredibly powerful army, including a nuclear stockpile only equalled by the US. They have more combat aircraft and MBTs, not to mention superior MRBMs, ICBMS and anti-aircraft defence. I assure you, the only Western country who can beat Russia is the USA. The UK and Japan, would have absolutely no chance, especially not on a strategic level.

Security relations (PfP) between NATO and Russia are PARAMOUNT to the security of the entire Northern Hemisphere. Nobody would want another Cold War, and I highly doubt that, again, no offense, Kosovo could cause an East-West rift again.

All in all, both Kosovo and Serbia are equally well backed, but not significant enough that suddenly the whole world will start fighting over either of you.

What will remain with Kosovo is a Palestine/Taiwan style situation (rather than a Montenegro one), since clearly neither "side" is in the position to influence the entire "other side".

This is why I say again, negotiations, negotiations, negotians. Otherwise, this deadlock will never end.

Remember the following:

1) To get into the UN, a state needs 2/3 of the General Assembly's vote, which is subject to UNSC (America, China, Britain, France and Russia) approval prior to any resolutions being made holistically.

2) NATO/EU membership is subject to a unanimous vote of all members, which clearly cannot happen if some of the members thereof do not and will not recognize Kosovo. This is why Kosovo is still recognized within the parameters of UNSCR1244 by both entities on the whole.

Kosovo albanian unilateral declaration of independence was an illegal act of separatism. (Predrag"

When milosevic sent the JNA into Kosova to ethnically cleanse over 1 million Albanians from their homes, burned thousands of their homes, murdered 10,000 Albanians and more Albanians from their ordances' collateral damage, milosevic committed the most heinous of international crimes, he broke Yugoslavia's/Serbia's contract with the Albanian people, ie, their own citizens. Milosevic's job was to protect Yugo's/Serbia's citizens, not kill, starve, freeze or force them out of their homes and land.

For all the crimes and sufferings that Serbia brought upon Kosovo, for all the mass graves, mass executions, mass expulsions, ethnic cleansing, discrimination, supression, we shall never live under this state.

History can not crawl behind like a crab. The times of repression have gone forever.

No worry, if ICJ's advisory opinion is in favour if Kosovo's Independence and as such did acted under the International law then Serbian refusal to recognize Kosovo wont bother us, it will however give us the right we need to close down the entire border with Serbia.

Demi

And China.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2010 11:50)

You can forget China. If Kosova UN membership will go right now in front of UNSC,China will obstain but will never use a veto. Once ICJ comes in favor of Kosova/o, China is all game and will even recognize Kosova/o. China will use the ICJ opinion as an excuse to recognize K.

Kosovo albanian unilateral declaration of independence was an illegal act of separatism.
Of this there is no doubt!

The only question is whether or not the ICJ is a just and credible institution that is free from corruption and the influence of western nations.

The only thing on trial here is the ICJ

"No Kosovo recognition regardless of ICJ"

So why did you ask, dear Vuk, for an opinion that you do not respect?

Did you think of ICJ as an gamble institution?

Dont worry the world is fed up with you and your hypocrisy beyong imagination, and your savage mentality. You are pretty sure what the outcome will be so no wonder you are feeling the heat on you.

Demi

And China.

Thanks for making my point Mr Jeremic by by pointing out that Serbia's has not intention of accepting the Kosovo independence despite the Court's Opinion.

That show how much Serbia really "cares" about the international law and the paradox is it was Serbia who approached the ICJ for an Opinion.

I personally knew from the begining of Serbia's political intention regarding the application to ICJ. The intention was purely how to halt further international recognition to Kosovo independence. There will be no chance at all for Serbia joining EU without recognising Kosovo independence first. On the other side it is clear Serbia with its policies is doing the oposite of re-integrating Kosovo into Serbia.

And considering Pristina's officials are gearing up for a similar stonewalling regardless of ICJ, it looks like stalemate all around.
(Mike, 1 July 2010 17:44)

Sorry Mike, but I don't see it as stalemate, since Kosova/o did not ask for ICJ opinion. I have said it before , why Serbia is wasting time,money and efforts for something they would not honor.

The Foreign Minister of Serbia says that Belgrade will not recognize Kosovo as independent regardless of the ICJ opinion.

This is the correct position, and it has nothing to do with Serbian Inat, but it has everything to do with what is good, proper, and acceptable.

The Questions before the ICJ is really: Is Terrorism Legal Under International Law Is Criminality Legal Under International Law; and, Is Racism Legal Under International Law?

The other question before the ICJ Judges, the entire world, and especially to the Serbian people is: Are the Serbian people are worthless race of animals with no Human Rights or Legal Rights?

These are is the same questions as asking: Was the Unilateral Declaration of Independence by the Kosovo Albanian Legal under International Law?

All those who are in favour of Kosovo’s Independence are suggesting this, but they are trying to say it in what they think is a fancy and unrecognizable manner.

This is because what other reason could there be, seeing how all the other reasons based on true History are lies and exaggerations.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts, because there is only one true set of facts.

If Serbia accepts that terrorism, criminality, and racism is legal under International Law, then the world will say that the Serbian people are worthless race of animals.

The Learned Judges at the ICJ know that the Albanians want, and have wanted Independence for over 132 years since their League of Prizren Declaration in 1878.

The Learned Judges at the ICJ further know that the Albanians want Independence even after the agreed to Peace Settlement of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 was agreed to and signed over 11 years ago.

There are many people including all Learned Judges at the ICJ who believe that the only reasons Albanians want independence is because of being terrorists, thieves, and racists.

For these and other reasons, and the Albanians of Kosovo are only entitled to Negotiated Autonomy.

Serbia will give the Kosovo Albanians that Negotiated Autonomy, and the world is only willing to grant the Kosovo Albanians Negotiated Autonomy.

Regardless of what the ICJ says; the Albanians will have to revoke their Declaration of Independence.

Regardless of what the ICJ says; the backers of Kosovo Albanians Independence will have to revoke their support for Racism and Criminality before real negotiations can commence.

There are many people who think that the Albanians should have said years ago that they are Serbian citizens, and come to mutually agreeable arrangement with Serbia.

It would be highly inappropriate for Serbia to accept any ICJ announcement that says anything other than the Albanian Declaration of Independence was 100% ILLEGAL under International Law.

The subliminal message by a political ICJ and political Judges will be that it is legal because the Serbian people are a worthless race of animals who have no Human Rights or Legal Rights.

It would be highly inappropriate for Serbia, or for any Law Abiding country to accept any ICJ announcement that says anything other than the Albanian Declaration of Independence was 100% ILLEGAL under International Law.

And China.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2010 11:50)


I don't think China would go against US and the most powerful countrys of the world like UK, Japan etc for the sake of Serbia. The chines and the russian leaders are not stupid to belive in some fairytale that Kosovo people and their leaders will accept for Kosovo to go under serbian rule. Kosovo independence and an multi-ethnic country with equal rights for all it's citizens was the best compromise wich could be brought to reality. Hey even the flag en the national song is neutral on etnicity. Take it or leave it because in the end majority citizens of Kosovo should choose their faith and not some butch of radicals siting in Belgrade.


When Kosovo reach enonomic equalty with Serbia and other regional countrys and becomes a real regional player even Serbia will see that this ''war for Kosovo'' have failed already in 1989 and maybe even before that.


I don't think any serbs should count on Spain,Greece,Russia or China for that matter. This countrys is nothing without the major players of the world like US,UK,France and Germany.

And China.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2010 11:50
You notice it is only Serbia that mentions China as a veto in the UNSC. But the west only mentions Russia. China has voiced its support for Serbia on the matter but they have always stayed away from the V word.

So, Serbia will accept the courts decision if its in its favour, but it won't if its not??!
I can't say I am suprised.
(nikshala, 1 July 2010 13:14)
--
The decision is regarding the declaration and whether it's legal or not. We can accept the decision, no problems, but that doesn't mean we have to recognise Kosovo. If it goes against the authors of the UDI then that means every single recognition is illegal. On the other hand, it does not oblige any country to recognise Kosovo regardless. There are enough powerful countries that won't do it and thus ensuring Kosovo never becomes independent.

To the Albanian commentators here who ask is Serbia hypocritical - I say look in the mirror.

Serbia is just taking your lead in being unilateral in its decision making. Why not? stubborness seems to have paid off for the Albanians (so far), they figured they might as well have a go too.

If the ICJ rules that Kosovo IS part of Serbia (it has to be at least a good chance given the black and white wording of 1244), can we then assume you will fold away your Albanian flags and raise the Serbian one again?

I didn't think so.

@iluvkosova
===========

I guess you must be new to this forum. I suggest you don't waste your breath with Milosevic's atrocities.

It does not hold water with the refined legal minds of this forum :).

There is no way China will ever allow Kosovo a seat at the UN. If it did this, how could it ever deny Taiwan a UN seat.

As for the ICJ decision. It makes a lot of difference whatever each side says. Either side wll be able to use it to legitimise their position and weaken the others arguments. If the Albanians win the case, it'll be difficult for Serbia to deny them independence. If Serbia win the case it'll be more complicated because of the position on the ground. It might open new negotiations (that'll depend on the US and EU, NOT the albanians) for partition, or Serbia might decide to lay claim to all of Kosovo and ni effect rule indirectly, with foreign companies and governments negotiating with Belgrade and not Pristina for access to Kosovo. The UN would stay there to maintain the peace, but Serbia would be controlling the purse strings and any other major policy with regards to Kosovo. So, if Sebria wins the case there is no way that the US and EU will be able to maintain their stance which is why they were trying to fight so hard at the ICJ when they claim that it doesn't really matter. But this is all guess work. Let's see what the ICJ says first.

"No Kosovo recognition regardless of ICJ"
Dear FM, Serbia will not accept unilaterally declared independence of Kosovo, but it will not have any backing while trying to convince others not to do so. End of game!
Another thing, Serbia’s FM has repeated over and over that Serbia will not accept unilaterally declared independence of K., so, my question is: is he implying that Serbia will do so after the possible new talks with K. leaders?

I guess you must be new to this forum. I suggest you don't waste your breath with Milosevic's atrocities.
It does not hold water with the refined legal minds of this forum :).
(Ment"

I suppose you can tell us why Romania or Bulgaria, 10 levels of nat'l poverty below Serbia's, were accepted into the EU before your precious Serbia? Even now, EU nations are blocking Serbia's membership.

-- Of course it's going to be a stalemate. If Pristina, Washington, London, or Berlin had any ability at knocking this out of the ballpark, it would have done so already. Since we know Belgrade and Pristina have stated they will ignore any decision that will be contrary to their wishes and interests, either one side or the other is going to continue to stonewall efforts at finding a compromise, or the ICJ, knowing what each side will do (and it's funny how Pristina continues to disregard any ICJ ruling while placing some hope of a "wave of recognitions" after the decision somehow validates its cause), an ambiguous ruling will most likely be given, giving both sides gains and losses - enough for Belgrade to convincingly argue not to recognize, and enough for countries hedging their decisions on what Belgrade does/doesn't do to follow suit. This won't "kill" Kosovo, but it will basically keep it in limbo unless the powers that call the shots decide to renegotiate. Belgrade won’t “get Kosovo back”, but there will be nothing allowing it to move forward much further. Hence, stalemate.
(Mike, 1 July 2010 22:44)

I don't understand your logic. ICJ will never force any country, Serbia included, to recognize Kosova. Likewise, ICJ will never (well, doesn't have the power in the first place) force K-Albanians to re-negotiate their status with Serbia. In the case of an ambiguous ruling Serbia is left with nothing. The only argument that Serbia has been playing for so long is that the independence proclamation broke Int. Law. The very fact that Serbia took the case to ICJ implies that this very Int Law it's not such a clean cut after all and therefore is disputable. If ICJ doesn't agree that K broke Int. Law what is Serbia going to say?
Sure Serbia can still stubbornly continue to say NO, but the point is that there is no argument left for Serbia after the ICJ to continue to do so? Naturally it cannot argue any more that K-Independence broke Int. Law, since ICJ did not rule that. Serbia played a bet and lost. It bluffed badly and all it gained is few delayed recognitions. There is no doubt that after the ambiguous decision of ICJ Kosova will be in much much better position simply because it has NOT BROKEN INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE HAS PROVEN THIS thanks to Serbia.

As per this “stalemate” that you talk about, Serbia is no better than Kosova. The only one holding the so called stalemate for you is Russia. After ICJ, I have no idea what is Russia going to say. Again it cannot contemplate that Int. Law is broken, unless is willing to invalidate ICJ as the body that is designed to provide such rulings. Either way the stalemate applies to both countries, and both will continue for some time to hold the same grounds and suffer the same from this.

One more thing regarding the opening of your statement: “If Pristina, Washington, London, or Berlin had any ability at knocking this out of the ballpark”…

I beg to differ because the question has been closed for these powers that you mention. Kosova is independent and Serbia and Russia can do nothing about it, neither politically, economically and more importantly militarily. Serbia cannot move an inch to recover its lost “province” and one would be a fool to believe that it will ever be allowed, under circumstances. So the matter is already “knocked out of the ballpark” for these powers. As per UN membership, it’s just a formality. Although much desirable, UN membership will do very little to change the lives of the people of Kosova. There are plenty of UN member that have less stability and worse living standards than Kosova. Belgrade has absolutely nothing to offer to K. and as a result it’s in no position to make a case for negotiations.

ICJ has done its job by slowing down, almost stopping the recognitions. If Serbia thinks that we’ll fall in their trap by starting the so called technical/status talks, they must be kidding themselves. Serbia does not want to talk to Kosovar Albanians they just want to delay recognitions further until they join EU and then block Kosova to enter EU. Just before ICJ case was voted by the UN UK’s and USA’s ambassadors to the UN said very clearly to Serbia that ICJ was their request and they will have to face the consequences. The declarations by Vuk Jeremic in USA, such as we will not recognise Kosova regardless the ICJ are just a publicity stunt to feed and make happy the nationalists back home but he know very well what ICJ’s decision means for Serbia.

One more thing that is important to reiterate, is the fact that no matter what the ICJ ruling will be, there will still be clear division between countries on this issue, but they will remain with this issue only!

The fact of the matter is that the USA (including MNNA like Japan and Korea), Europe, Russia and China, hold tby far the vast majority of the world's economic and military power.

It is imperative that they remain on good terms, for the sake of everybody, and I believe that they will do so, since nobody needs another East (Russia and China - SCO) and West (USA and Europe - NATO) confrontation anymore, especially not over some insignificant little region in SE Europe.

And one last thing, the "West", while indeed powerful and still dominant in the global scene, is not the only voice to be heard. Russia (together with the CIS) are mineral superpowers which are critical to maintain good relations with and have the potential to rising to superpower status alongside the USA.

China, what is there to say? It's not only the fact that they are so interlinked with the global economy that excluding them would be, shall we say, extremely detrimental to the global economy, but now it appears that they are slowly but surely forming an East Asian Union with both Japan and Korea (who are American allies, though clearly tired of US military presence), which combined, will create an economy larger than that of the EU or USA, and a formidable military power. This will be the new world superpower:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2010/07/137_68643.html

http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2010/06/15/china-japan-korea-trilateral-cooperation-and-the-east-asian-community/

Times are changing and the balance of power is shifting towards.. well, a balance, rather than American hegemony, which is great!

But not so great for the Kosovars, though indeed not enough for the Serbs to be happy either.

Face it, the Kosovo issue, while a slight pain, is hardly going to have the important elements in the world at each others throats over it.

So to conclude, the ICJ ruling will mean NOTHING. Some countries might recognize Kosovo if they win, some countries may retract their recognitions if Serbia wins, either way, a deadlock will remain.

Not surprising, but Jeremic could not and would not have made that statement had he known it would have incurred the ire of Washington, London, and Berlin.

And considering Pristina's officials are gearing up for a similar stonewalling regardless of ICJ, it looks like stalemate all around.

"Not surprising, but Jeremic could not and would not have made that statement had he known it would have incurred the ire of Washington, London, and Berlin."
(Mike, 1 July 2010 17:44)

Wait Mike..Mike..wait.. did you just say Jeremic does not say things unless they are acceptable to Washington, Berlin and London? Or is this another Mike? :)

Demi said:

"I don't think China would go against US and the most powerful countrys of the world like UK, Japan etc for the sake of Serbia. The chines and the russian leaders are not stupid to belive in some fairytale that Kosovo people and their leaders will accept for Kosovo to go under serbian rule"

====================

Do you honestly think that anyone is going ask them?
Your lot will do as they are told.
If they didn't consult Serbia on grabbing Kosovo (allowing you to break away) what makes you think they will ask a few Albanians from Kosovo where they want to be?
In the end they will take whatever deal they all come up with.

BTW, China has already demonstrated they are willing to change the way they operate by sending someone to ICJ to give a vertal report in Serbia's favour. This has never happened before so a veto is not out of the question either.

"Of course its very easy to talk about 'cracking' Russia or the USA, but its very difficult to achieve."
(bganon)

-- Yes, but in the happy hippy dippy world of Albanian nationalism, ultimate victory is just a crack or two away. Provided a powerful country does the cracking for them, mind you.

Why would you ask for an opinion and then refuse to comply with it? It was Vuk Jeremic, who initiated the court process in the International Court. Sending a message like this right now, means that he believes that the declaration of independence of Kosovo is according to international standards.

Fredi,

Please elaborate on all these mass crimes you speak of. The crimes commited by the Albanians are equally horrendous. To remind you the NATO bombing in 1999 was never approved by the UN and this illegal seccession is also illegal. Kosovo will remain a quasi-state and will never fully be independant, it will never enter any major institutions and will remain a bitch of the US.

ICJ will rule in favor of Kosovo's independence; Wolf knows that, so he's preparing the serbian people.That's it;is that simple.In order to understand the future, look back into the past.You'll understand what I mean.

"Sorry Mike, but I don't see it as stalemate, since Kosova/o did not ask for ICJ opinion." (Kosova-USA)

-- Of course it's going to be a stalemate. If Pristina, Washington, London, or Berlin had any ability at knocking this out of the ballpark, it would have done so already. Since we know Belgrade and Pristina have stated they will ignore any decision that will be contrary to their wishes and interests, either one side or the other is going to continue to stonewall efforts at finding a compromise, or the ICJ, knowing what each side will do (and it's funny how Pristina continues to disregard any ICJ ruling while placing some hope of a "wave of recognitions" after the decision somehow validates its cause), an ambiguous ruling will most likely be given, giving both sides gains and losses - enough for Belgrade to convincingly argue not to recognize, and enough for countries hedging their decisions on what Belgrade does/doesn't do to follow suit. This won't "kill" Kosovo, but it will basically keep it in limbo unless the powers that call the shots decide to renegotiate. Belgrade won’t “get Kosovo back”, but there will be nothing allowing it to move forward much further. Hence, stalemate.

Please elaborate on all these mass crimes you speak of. The crimes commited by the Albanians are equally horrendous. To remind you the NATO bombing in 1999 was never approved by the UN and this illegal seccession is also illegal. Kosovo will remain a quasi-state and will never fully be independant, it will never enter any major institutions and will remain a bitch of the US.
(Calgarian, 1 July 2010 21:56)
While the NATO bombing was not approved by the UN(Have we had a bombing approved by the UN?) anyway, I do not understand why it is mentioned. The fact that NATO was given the job of securing Kosovo and monitoring the withdrawal of Serbian forces is tantamount to a "post" bombing endorsement.

That's funny, China always says the V word on any issue dealing with Taiwan. But the "cracking Russia" delusion is a real laugh. The only people who are cracking right now are the very few ICJ judge who are trying to persuade the other judges to rule in favor of the UDI. I noticed the american judge resigned rather than give a ruling that would harm Israel. Was that judge replaced yet?

History can not crawl behind like a crab. The times of repression have gone forever.
(Fredi, 1 July 2010 20:28)
--
Exactly for that reason, "Kosova" will never become independent.

And China.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2010 11:50
You notice it is only Serbia that mentions China as a veto in the UNSC. But the west only mentions Russia. China has voiced its support for Serbia on the matter but they have always stayed away from the V word.
(pss, 1 July 2010 14:50)
====================

Do you really want to put that to the test?

"No Kosovo recognition regardless of ICJ"

Nobody can force you and nobody has the will to try it.But thinking that you can outsmart those who invented and perfected diplomacy is very naive. In case the ICJ verdict doesn't go your way Vuk, you gave the serbian opposition a free ticket to come back in power.Legally the kosovo case will have been open open for a long time to come if you haven't asked that question to the court created & financed by the people who made kosovo independent.


"Ours is a democratic country, and our position on the unilateral declaration is based on our Constitution and mandatory decisions passed by the National Parliament, and enjoys the support of an overwhelming majority of our citizens," Jeremić explained.

Did this democratic country of Serbia allowed all its citizens including the albanians in the "southern province of kosovo" to vote for the constitution? Did Serbia unilaterally included Kosovo as part of its territory in the constitution although the negotiations over the status of the province were still going on?

"Wait Mike..Mike..wait.. did you just say Jeremic does not say things unless they are acceptable to Washington, Berlin and London? Or is this another Mike? :)" (KU)

-- There certainly are a number of Variations on a Michael around here. Note my reply to K-USA below - should clear things up :)

Anyways, with regards to what the Wolf says/doesn't say/has the nerve to say, as much as my Serbophilia reaches unhealthy levels at times I have to believe Vuk wouldn't have made this statement without making absolutely sure Belgrade won't get censured for being "uncooperative". Either that or he knows the ICJ is going to come down the center.

Or maybe he's just throwing down the gauntlet. Who knows? Either way, it's not like any of us on either side are surprised as this statement.

@ iluvkosova
============

I think you misunderstood my comment (I'm Albanian by the way).

I was simply trying to highlight the fact that the "international law protectors" here conveniently gloss over the atrocities of Milosevic and that trying to point that fact to them is like trying to talk to a wall... basically a waste of time :).

"I don't understand your logic. ICJ will never force any country, Serbia included, to recognize Kosova. Likewise, ICJ will never (well, doesn't have the power in the first place) force K-Albanians to re-negotiate their status with Serbia." (miri)

-- That's a stalemate by my definition.

"In the case of an ambiguous ruling Serbia is left with nothing."

-- In the case of an ambiguous ruling, Serbia is left with what it currently controls. The current fault lines become the new political realities. An ambiguous ruling doesn’t take away what Pristina current has, but denies it any more control than what it has.

"There is no doubt that after the ambiguous decision of ICJ Kosova will be in much much better position simply because it has NOT BROKEN INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE HAS PROVEN"

-- How? The ICJ needs to say that Pristina's UDI was in accordance with international law in order to gain the upper hand in the diplomatic game. If it's recognized as a fait accompli that is left for individual states to decide what to do, the diplomatic slog continues. You may get a few more recognitions, and you may actually lose a few recognitions. Unless the ruling actually says that international law wasn’t broken, Pristina hasn’t won anything.

"After ICJ, I have no idea what is Russia going to say."

-- Considering the statement made yesterday by Vuk and the little hoohah that took place in KM this morning, I think it's safe to say Russia will continue to back Belgrade, as will a lot of other countries on the contingency of what Belgrade does/doesn't do. I seriously doubt Russia or China will come over to Pristina's side.

"Either way the stalemate applies to both countries, and both will continue for some time to hold the same grounds and suffer the same from this."

-- My point exactly. Hence the need to renegotiate to get out of the morass.

"I beg to differ because the question has been closed for [Washington, London, and Berlin]. Kosova is independent and Serbia and Russia can do nothing about it, neither politically, economically and more importantly militarily."

-- That may be true, but there's very little they can do to force Serbia to comply, and there's very little they can do to extend Pristina's claims to authority in areas it doesn't exist. Moreover, Washington, Kosovo's biggest ally, is being pretty cooperative with the one country that, in your opinion, is holding up Kosovo's progress.

Again, stalemate.

"Belgrade has absolutely nothing to offer to K. and as a result it’s in no position to make a case for negotiations."

-- I really don't think, and I really can't see, Belgrade making a move to reintegrate Kosovo. We haven't heard of any plan, and the only efforts in Kosovo that Belgrade seems to care about is the north. When was the last time we heard Belgrade complain that its authority in Prizren is being ignored by EULEX? Even Gracanica is largely left to its own devices (and resents Belgrade for it but hold an equal level of contempt for Pristina). But at the same time, I do not see anything that Pristina can offer to the K-Serbs, and over the last two years has done everything imaginable to keep itself out of any position to make demands either.

Hence, stalemate. Stalemate all around.

That's funny, China always says the V word on any issue dealing with Taiwan. But the "cracking Russia" delusion is a real laugh. The only people who are cracking right now are the very few ICJ judge who are trying to persuade the other judges to rule in favor of the UDI. I noticed the american judge resigned rather than give a ruling that would harm Israel. Was that judge replaced yet?
(JohnBoy, 1 July 2010 17:13)
Kind of behind on the times are we. There are no pending cases against Israel, the last advisory opinion was about Israel and the building of the wall isolating Palestine. However that opinion was rendered in 2004, and Burgenthal was the sole dissent. I guess you could say 6 years afterward was the reason he resigned.
His resignation is not effective until September, long after the expected opinion on Kosovo, so his resignation should not affect the outcome of that case either.

Kosovo did not ask UN to declare its independence, nor ICJ. So whatever the opinion is, Kosovo is not obligated to respect it.

Who needs recognition from Serbia? We just need to crack Russia and Kosovo will have a UN seat. What would Serbia do then ?


But this was a poor statment by a poor foreign minister who him self asked the court for it's opinion. Now he dosen't want to accept the rule of that opinion ?

God bless people who dosent have to deal with hypocrit serbs.

Kosovo albanian unilateral declaration of independence was an illegal act of separatism.
Of this there is no doubt!

The only question is whether or not the ICJ is a just and credible institution that is free from corruption and the influence of western nations.

The only thing on trial here is the ICJ

And China.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2010 11:50)


I don't think China would go against US and the most powerful countrys of the world like UK, Japan etc for the sake of Serbia. The chines and the russian leaders are not stupid to belive in some fairytale that Kosovo people and their leaders will accept for Kosovo to go under serbian rule. Kosovo independence and an multi-ethnic country with equal rights for all it's citizens was the best compromise wich could be brought to reality. Hey even the flag en the national song is neutral on etnicity. Take it or leave it because in the end majority citizens of Kosovo should choose their faith and not some butch of radicals siting in Belgrade.


When Kosovo reach enonomic equalty with Serbia and other regional countrys and becomes a real regional player even Serbia will see that this ''war for Kosovo'' have failed already in 1989 and maybe even before that.


I don't think any serbs should count on Spain,Greece,Russia or China for that matter. This countrys is nothing without the major players of the world like US,UK,France and Germany.

"No Kosovo recognition regardless of ICJ"

So why did you ask, dear Vuk, for an opinion that you do not respect?

Did you think of ICJ as an gamble institution?

Dont worry the world is fed up with you and your hypocrisy beyong imagination, and your savage mentality. You are pretty sure what the outcome will be so no wonder you are feeling the heat on you.

Demi

And China.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2010 11:50)

You can forget China. If Kosova UN membership will go right now in front of UNSC,China will obstain but will never use a veto. Once ICJ comes in favor of Kosova/o, China is all game and will even recognize Kosova/o. China will use the ICJ opinion as an excuse to recognize K.

So, Serbia will accept the courts decision if its in its favour, but it won't if its not??!

I can't say I am suprised.

So, Serbia will accept the courts decision if its in its favour, but it won't if its not??!
I can't say I am suprised.
(nikshala, 1 July 2010 13:14)
--
The decision is regarding the declaration and whether it's legal or not. We can accept the decision, no problems, but that doesn't mean we have to recognise Kosovo. If it goes against the authors of the UDI then that means every single recognition is illegal. On the other hand, it does not oblige any country to recognise Kosovo regardless. There are enough powerful countries that won't do it and thus ensuring Kosovo never becomes independent.

The Foreign Minister of Serbia says that Belgrade will not recognize Kosovo as independent regardless of the ICJ opinion.

This is the correct position, and it has nothing to do with Serbian Inat, but it has everything to do with what is good, proper, and acceptable.

The Questions before the ICJ is really: Is Terrorism Legal Under International Law Is Criminality Legal Under International Law; and, Is Racism Legal Under International Law?

The other question before the ICJ Judges, the entire world, and especially to the Serbian people is: Are the Serbian people are worthless race of animals with no Human Rights or Legal Rights?

These are is the same questions as asking: Was the Unilateral Declaration of Independence by the Kosovo Albanian Legal under International Law?

All those who are in favour of Kosovo’s Independence are suggesting this, but they are trying to say it in what they think is a fancy and unrecognizable manner.

This is because what other reason could there be, seeing how all the other reasons based on true History are lies and exaggerations.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts, because there is only one true set of facts.

If Serbia accepts that terrorism, criminality, and racism is legal under International Law, then the world will say that the Serbian people are worthless race of animals.

The Learned Judges at the ICJ know that the Albanians want, and have wanted Independence for over 132 years since their League of Prizren Declaration in 1878.

The Learned Judges at the ICJ further know that the Albanians want Independence even after the agreed to Peace Settlement of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 was agreed to and signed over 11 years ago.

There are many people including all Learned Judges at the ICJ who believe that the only reasons Albanians want independence is because of being terrorists, thieves, and racists.

For these and other reasons, and the Albanians of Kosovo are only entitled to Negotiated Autonomy.

Serbia will give the Kosovo Albanians that Negotiated Autonomy, and the world is only willing to grant the Kosovo Albanians Negotiated Autonomy.

Regardless of what the ICJ says; the Albanians will have to revoke their Declaration of Independence.

Regardless of what the ICJ says; the backers of Kosovo Albanians Independence will have to revoke their support for Racism and Criminality before real negotiations can commence.

There are many people who think that the Albanians should have said years ago that they are Serbian citizens, and come to mutually agreeable arrangement with Serbia.

It would be highly inappropriate for Serbia to accept any ICJ announcement that says anything other than the Albanian Declaration of Independence was 100% ILLEGAL under International Law.

The subliminal message by a political ICJ and political Judges will be that it is legal because the Serbian people are a worthless race of animals who have no Human Rights or Legal Rights.

It would be highly inappropriate for Serbia, or for any Law Abiding country to accept any ICJ announcement that says anything other than the Albanian Declaration of Independence was 100% ILLEGAL under International Law.

No worry, if ICJ's advisory opinion is in favour if Kosovo's Independence and as such did acted under the International law then Serbian refusal to recognize Kosovo wont bother us, it will however give us the right we need to close down the entire border with Serbia.

Hahaha team Albania where do you make this stuff up??? Seriously???

If you had any creditable knowledge China will never recognise Kosovo because of Taiwan and Tibet! Now China is not going to recognise Kosovo for the sake of pleasing USA! Also you would also know a large amount of American businesses are owned by China! So China is no goin to create a rod for its own back because you think its scared of USA.

And for Russia how many times have Russian officials said they will back Serbia over Kosovo here is a few quotes for you delusional Albanians

On 15 July 2008, President Dmitry Medvedev stated in a major foreign policy speech "For the EU, Kosovo is almost what Iraq is to the United States... This is the latest example of the undermining of international law

On 19 February 2009, Hashim Thaçi announced that Russia is planning the recognition of Kosovo.[339] The Minister of Foreign Affairs of Russia, Sergey Lavrov, responded on the following day by saying "I think Mr. Thaci is indulging in wishful thinking... Mr. Thaci is the last person to make statements on behalf of the Russian Federation" and that "When discussing the problem of Kosovo, the Russian side confirms that our position remains the same and supports the settlement of this problem in accordance with Security Council Resolution 1244. Our support for Serbia's course of action in defending its sovereignty and territorial integrity also stays firm"

On 29 November 2009, the Russian ambassador to Serbia Aleksandr Konuzin said that Russia will continue to help Serbia defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. He also said that “Kosovo echoes in the hearts of all Russians with the same pain as it does in your hearts

Also im sure Serbia and China are signing and making business deals! Whos doing business deals with the clowns Pristina

The Dragon and The Bear are growing stronger!

Long Live Serbia, Serbs and Vasojevici!

Demi

And China.

Kosovo albanian unilateral declaration of independence was an illegal act of separatism. (Predrag"

When milosevic sent the JNA into Kosova to ethnically cleanse over 1 million Albanians from their homes, burned thousands of their homes, murdered 10,000 Albanians and more Albanians from their ordances' collateral damage, milosevic committed the most heinous of international crimes, he broke Yugoslavia's/Serbia's contract with the Albanian people, ie, their own citizens. Milosevic's job was to protect Yugo's/Serbia's citizens, not kill, starve, freeze or force them out of their homes and land.

And China.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2010 11:50
You notice it is only Serbia that mentions China as a veto in the UNSC. But the west only mentions Russia. China has voiced its support for Serbia on the matter but they have always stayed away from the V word.

.. and the Kosovo "Government" will claim the independence regardless of the ICJ ruling.

So, what will change? Nothing!

That's funny, China always says the V word on any issue dealing with Taiwan. But the "cracking Russia" delusion is a real laugh. The only people who are cracking right now are the very few ICJ judge who are trying to persuade the other judges to rule in favor of the UDI. I noticed the american judge resigned rather than give a ruling that would harm Israel. Was that judge replaced yet?

There is no way China will ever allow Kosovo a seat at the UN. If it did this, how could it ever deny Taiwan a UN seat.

As for the ICJ decision. It makes a lot of difference whatever each side says. Either side wll be able to use it to legitimise their position and weaken the others arguments. If the Albanians win the case, it'll be difficult for Serbia to deny them independence. If Serbia win the case it'll be more complicated because of the position on the ground. It might open new negotiations (that'll depend on the US and EU, NOT the albanians) for partition, or Serbia might decide to lay claim to all of Kosovo and ni effect rule indirectly, with foreign companies and governments negotiating with Belgrade and not Pristina for access to Kosovo. The UN would stay there to maintain the peace, but Serbia would be controlling the purse strings and any other major policy with regards to Kosovo. So, if Sebria wins the case there is no way that the US and EU will be able to maintain their stance which is why they were trying to fight so hard at the ICJ when they claim that it doesn't really matter. But this is all guess work. Let's see what the ICJ says first.

@iluvkosova
===========

I guess you must be new to this forum. I suggest you don't waste your breath with Milosevic's atrocities.

It does not hold water with the refined legal minds of this forum :).

Not surprising, but Jeremic could not and would not have made that statement had he known it would have incurred the ire of Washington, London, and Berlin.

And considering Pristina's officials are gearing up for a similar stonewalling regardless of ICJ, it looks like stalemate all around.

Demi if you look at it that way all Serbia really has to do is to 'crack' the USA and the whole independence project would come tumbling down.

Of course its very easy to talk about 'cracking' Russia or the USA, but its very difficult to achieve.

To the Albanian commentators here who ask is Serbia hypocritical - I say look in the mirror.

Serbia is just taking your lead in being unilateral in its decision making. Why not? stubborness seems to have paid off for the Albanians (so far), they figured they might as well have a go too.

If the ICJ rules that Kosovo IS part of Serbia (it has to be at least a good chance given the black and white wording of 1244), can we then assume you will fold away your Albanian flags and raise the Serbian one again?

I didn't think so.

For all the crimes and sufferings that Serbia brought upon Kosovo, for all the mass graves, mass executions, mass expulsions, ethnic cleansing, discrimination, supression, we shall never live under this state.

History can not crawl behind like a crab. The times of repression have gone forever.

“You can forget China. If Kosova UN membership will go right now in front of UNSC,China will obstain but will never use a veto. Once ICJ comes in favor of Kosova/o, China is all game and will even recognize Kosova/o. China will use the ICJ opinion as an excuse to recognize K.
(Kosova-USA, 1 July 2010 13:11)”

I think China's stance on Kosovo is crystal clear:

http://de-construct.net/?p=5631

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=12&dd=07&nav_id=63568

Do you have any sources that back up your claims that China will abstain and not veto and that they will even recognize Kosovo when the ICJ votes in favour of Kosovo (and proof for this)?

"I don't think China would go against US and the most powerful countrys of the world like UK, Japan etc for the sake of Serbia. The chines and the russian leaders are not stupid to belive in some fairytale that Kosovo people and their leaders will accept for Kosovo to go under serbian rule. Kosovo independence and an multi-ethnic country with equal rights for all it's citizens was the best compromise wich could be brought to reality. Hey even the flag en the national song is neutral on etnicity. Take it or leave it because in the end majority citizens of Kosovo should choose their faith and not some butch of radicals siting in Belgrade.


When Kosovo reach enonomic equalty with Serbia and other regional countrys and becomes a real regional player even Serbia will see that this ''war for Kosovo'' have failed already in 1989 and maybe even before that.


I don't think any serbs should count on Spain,Greece,Russia or China for that matter. This countrys is nothing without the major players of the world like US,UK,France and Germany.
(Demi, 1 July 2010 13:22)

You seem to have too much faith in the West that they would be willing to spoil their relations with countries like Russia and China over Kosovo, as if Kosovo is worth the ties of the latter.

I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Spain, Romania, Slovakia and Greece remain integrated in both the EU and NATO, which is proof enough that Kosovo is hardly an issue to, oh, I don't know, kick them out.

Ask yourself, the West has a choice, either Kosovo, or Spain, Greece and Romania? I think it's pretty clear, and as are their stances.

China is a rising superpower and you clearly underestimate their economic influence on a global scale (especially now during this economic crisis), not to mention that their economy is considerably larger than those of both UK and Japan.

Military-wise, they are the largest army on this planet, a nuclear power and most definitely not to be put in the same category as either UK or Japan. It is only truly the US that can beat China in a war.

They have are also part of the SCO (together with Central Asian states and Russia), and maintain good ties with pretty much the entire non-alligned world. They have a part to play in the economies of the West (especially in terms of production), and it would be a huge understatement to assume that the US would sever all of this in favour of, no offense, Kosovo.

Russia is essentially Europe's oil and gas bloodline. They too have an incredibly powerful army, including a nuclear stockpile only equalled by the US. They have more combat aircraft and MBTs, not to mention superior MRBMs, ICBMS and anti-aircraft defence. I assure you, the only Western country who can beat Russia is the USA. The UK and Japan, would have absolutely no chance, especially not on a strategic level.

Security relations (PfP) between NATO and Russia are PARAMOUNT to the security of the entire Northern Hemisphere. Nobody would want another Cold War, and I highly doubt that, again, no offense, Kosovo could cause an East-West rift again.

All in all, both Kosovo and Serbia are equally well backed, but not significant enough that suddenly the whole world will start fighting over either of you.

What will remain with Kosovo is a Palestine/Taiwan style situation (rather than a Montenegro one), since clearly neither "side" is in the position to influence the entire "other side".

This is why I say again, negotiations, negotiations, negotians. Otherwise, this deadlock will never end.

Remember the following:

1) To get into the UN, a state needs 2/3 of the General Assembly's vote, which is subject to UNSC (America, China, Britain, France and Russia) approval prior to any resolutions being made holistically.

2) NATO/EU membership is subject to a unanimous vote of all members, which clearly cannot happen if some of the members thereof do not and will not recognize Kosovo. This is why Kosovo is still recognized within the parameters of UNSCR1244 by both entities on the whole.

One more thing that is important to reiterate, is the fact that no matter what the ICJ ruling will be, there will still be clear division between countries on this issue, but they will remain with this issue only!

The fact of the matter is that the USA (including MNNA like Japan and Korea), Europe, Russia and China, hold tby far the vast majority of the world's economic and military power.

It is imperative that they remain on good terms, for the sake of everybody, and I believe that they will do so, since nobody needs another East (Russia and China - SCO) and West (USA and Europe - NATO) confrontation anymore, especially not over some insignificant little region in SE Europe.

And one last thing, the "West", while indeed powerful and still dominant in the global scene, is not the only voice to be heard. Russia (together with the CIS) are mineral superpowers which are critical to maintain good relations with and have the potential to rising to superpower status alongside the USA.

China, what is there to say? It's not only the fact that they are so interlinked with the global economy that excluding them would be, shall we say, extremely detrimental to the global economy, but now it appears that they are slowly but surely forming an East Asian Union with both Japan and Korea (who are American allies, though clearly tired of US military presence), which combined, will create an economy larger than that of the EU or USA, and a formidable military power. This will be the new world superpower:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2010/07/137_68643.html

http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2010/06/15/china-japan-korea-trilateral-cooperation-and-the-east-asian-community/

Times are changing and the balance of power is shifting towards.. well, a balance, rather than American hegemony, which is great!

But not so great for the Kosovars, though indeed not enough for the Serbs to be happy either.

Face it, the Kosovo issue, while a slight pain, is hardly going to have the important elements in the world at each others throats over it.

So to conclude, the ICJ ruling will mean NOTHING. Some countries might recognize Kosovo if they win, some countries may retract their recognitions if Serbia wins, either way, a deadlock will remain.

History can not crawl behind like a crab. The times of repression have gone forever.
(Fredi, 1 July 2010 20:28)
--
Exactly for that reason, "Kosova" will never become independent.

Fredi,

Please elaborate on all these mass crimes you speak of. The crimes commited by the Albanians are equally horrendous. To remind you the NATO bombing in 1999 was never approved by the UN and this illegal seccession is also illegal. Kosovo will remain a quasi-state and will never fully be independant, it will never enter any major institutions and will remain a bitch of the US.

What a nice philosophy Mr. Jeremic has got. First he does everything to have an ICJ- opinion and then he says he doesn´t want to respect that opinion.
What a hypocrite.

"To the Albanian commentators here who ask is Serbia hypocritical - I say look in the mirror.

Serbia is just taking your lead in being unilateral in its decision making. Why not? stubborness seems to have paid off for the Albanians (so far), they figured they might as well have a go too.

If the ICJ rules that Kosovo IS part of Serbia (it has to be at least a good chance given the black and white wording of 1244), can we then assume you will fold away your Albanian flags and raise the Serbian one again?

I didn't think so.
(commentator, 1 July 2010 15:08) "

The point you are missing is that albanians did not ask ICJ for its opinion....we always said the courts opinion will not change our views.

But if Serbia has asked this institution for its opinion that it has to respect its decision. Otherwise it is like betting and then asking for your money back if you don't win!

"No Kosovo recognition regardless of ICJ"
Dear FM, Serbia will not accept unilaterally declared independence of Kosovo, but it will not have any backing while trying to convince others not to do so. End of game!
Another thing, Serbia’s FM has repeated over and over that Serbia will not accept unilaterally declared independence of K., so, my question is: is he implying that Serbia will do so after the possible new talks with K. leaders?

"Of course its very easy to talk about 'cracking' Russia or the USA, but its very difficult to achieve."
(bganon)

-- Yes, but in the happy hippy dippy world of Albanian nationalism, ultimate victory is just a crack or two away. Provided a powerful country does the cracking for them, mind you.

Please elaborate on all these mass crimes you speak of. The crimes commited by the Albanians are equally horrendous. To remind you the NATO bombing in 1999 was never approved by the UN and this illegal seccession is also illegal. Kosovo will remain a quasi-state and will never fully be independant, it will never enter any major institutions and will remain a bitch of the US.
(Calgarian, 1 July 2010 21:56)
While the NATO bombing was not approved by the UN(Have we had a bombing approved by the UN?) anyway, I do not understand why it is mentioned. The fact that NATO was given the job of securing Kosovo and monitoring the withdrawal of Serbian forces is tantamount to a "post" bombing endorsement.

ICJ will rule in favor of Kosovo's independence; Wolf knows that, so he's preparing the serbian people.That's it;is that simple.In order to understand the future, look back into the past.You'll understand what I mean.

ICJ has done its job by slowing down, almost stopping the recognitions. If Serbia thinks that we’ll fall in their trap by starting the so called technical/status talks, they must be kidding themselves. Serbia does not want to talk to Kosovar Albanians they just want to delay recognitions further until they join EU and then block Kosova to enter EU. Just before ICJ case was voted by the UN UK’s and USA’s ambassadors to the UN said very clearly to Serbia that ICJ was their request and they will have to face the consequences. The declarations by Vuk Jeremic in USA, such as we will not recognise Kosova regardless the ICJ are just a publicity stunt to feed and make happy the nationalists back home but he know very well what ICJ’s decision means for Serbia.

Thanks for making my point Mr Jeremic by by pointing out that Serbia's has not intention of accepting the Kosovo independence despite the Court's Opinion.

That show how much Serbia really "cares" about the international law and the paradox is it was Serbia who approached the ICJ for an Opinion.

I personally knew from the begining of Serbia's political intention regarding the application to ICJ. The intention was purely how to halt further international recognition to Kosovo independence. There will be no chance at all for Serbia joining EU without recognising Kosovo independence first. On the other side it is clear Serbia with its policies is doing the oposite of re-integrating Kosovo into Serbia.

-- Of course it's going to be a stalemate. If Pristina, Washington, London, or Berlin had any ability at knocking this out of the ballpark, it would have done so already. Since we know Belgrade and Pristina have stated they will ignore any decision that will be contrary to their wishes and interests, either one side or the other is going to continue to stonewall efforts at finding a compromise, or the ICJ, knowing what each side will do (and it's funny how Pristina continues to disregard any ICJ ruling while placing some hope of a "wave of recognitions" after the decision somehow validates its cause), an ambiguous ruling will most likely be given, giving both sides gains and losses - enough for Belgrade to convincingly argue not to recognize, and enough for countries hedging their decisions on what Belgrade does/doesn't do to follow suit. This won't "kill" Kosovo, but it will basically keep it in limbo unless the powers that call the shots decide to renegotiate. Belgrade won’t “get Kosovo back”, but there will be nothing allowing it to move forward much further. Hence, stalemate.
(Mike, 1 July 2010 22:44)

I don't understand your logic. ICJ will never force any country, Serbia included, to recognize Kosova. Likewise, ICJ will never (well, doesn't have the power in the first place) force K-Albanians to re-negotiate their status with Serbia. In the case of an ambiguous ruling Serbia is left with nothing. The only argument that Serbia has been playing for so long is that the independence proclamation broke Int. Law. The very fact that Serbia took the case to ICJ implies that this very Int Law it's not such a clean cut after all and therefore is disputable. If ICJ doesn't agree that K broke Int. Law what is Serbia going to say?
Sure Serbia can still stubbornly continue to say NO, but the point is that there is no argument left for Serbia after the ICJ to continue to do so? Naturally it cannot argue any more that K-Independence broke Int. Law, since ICJ did not rule that. Serbia played a bet and lost. It bluffed badly and all it gained is few delayed recognitions. There is no doubt that after the ambiguous decision of ICJ Kosova will be in much much better position simply because it has NOT BROKEN INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE HAS PROVEN THIS thanks to Serbia.

As per this “stalemate” that you talk about, Serbia is no better than Kosova. The only one holding the so called stalemate for you is Russia. After ICJ, I have no idea what is Russia going to say. Again it cannot contemplate that Int. Law is broken, unless is willing to invalidate ICJ as the body that is designed to provide such rulings. Either way the stalemate applies to both countries, and both will continue for some time to hold the same grounds and suffer the same from this.

One more thing regarding the opening of your statement: “If Pristina, Washington, London, or Berlin had any ability at knocking this out of the ballpark”…

I beg to differ because the question has been closed for these powers that you mention. Kosova is independent and Serbia and Russia can do nothing about it, neither politically, economically and more importantly militarily. Serbia cannot move an inch to recover its lost “province” and one would be a fool to believe that it will ever be allowed, under circumstances. So the matter is already “knocked out of the ballpark” for these powers. As per UN membership, it’s just a formality. Although much desirable, UN membership will do very little to change the lives of the people of Kosova. There are plenty of UN member that have less stability and worse living standards than Kosova. Belgrade has absolutely nothing to offer to K. and as a result it’s in no position to make a case for negotiations.

And considering Pristina's officials are gearing up for a similar stonewalling regardless of ICJ, it looks like stalemate all around.
(Mike, 1 July 2010 17:44)

Sorry Mike, but I don't see it as stalemate, since Kosova/o did not ask for ICJ opinion. I have said it before , why Serbia is wasting time,money and efforts for something they would not honor.

Demi said:

"I don't think China would go against US and the most powerful countrys of the world like UK, Japan etc for the sake of Serbia. The chines and the russian leaders are not stupid to belive in some fairytale that Kosovo people and their leaders will accept for Kosovo to go under serbian rule"

====================

Do you honestly think that anyone is going ask them?
Your lot will do as they are told.
If they didn't consult Serbia on grabbing Kosovo (allowing you to break away) what makes you think they will ask a few Albanians from Kosovo where they want to be?
In the end they will take whatever deal they all come up with.

BTW, China has already demonstrated they are willing to change the way they operate by sending someone to ICJ to give a vertal report in Serbia's favour. This has never happened before so a veto is not out of the question either.

I guess you must be new to this forum. I suggest you don't waste your breath with Milosevic's atrocities.
It does not hold water with the refined legal minds of this forum :).
(Ment"

I suppose you can tell us why Romania or Bulgaria, 10 levels of nat'l poverty below Serbia's, were accepted into the EU before your precious Serbia? Even now, EU nations are blocking Serbia's membership.

And China.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2010 11:50
You notice it is only Serbia that mentions China as a veto in the UNSC. But the west only mentions Russia. China has voiced its support for Serbia on the matter but they have always stayed away from the V word.
(pss, 1 July 2010 14:50)
====================

Do you really want to put that to the test?

"Wait Mike..Mike..wait.. did you just say Jeremic does not say things unless they are acceptable to Washington, Berlin and London? Or is this another Mike? :)" (KU)

-- There certainly are a number of Variations on a Michael around here. Note my reply to K-USA below - should clear things up :)

Anyways, with regards to what the Wolf says/doesn't say/has the nerve to say, as much as my Serbophilia reaches unhealthy levels at times I have to believe Vuk wouldn't have made this statement without making absolutely sure Belgrade won't get censured for being "uncooperative". Either that or he knows the ICJ is going to come down the center.

Or maybe he's just throwing down the gauntlet. Who knows? Either way, it's not like any of us on either side are surprised as this statement.

Kosovo did not ask UN to declare its independence, nor ICJ. So whatever the opinion is, Kosovo is not obligated to respect it.

"Sorry Mike, but I don't see it as stalemate, since Kosova/o did not ask for ICJ opinion." (Kosova-USA)

-- Of course it's going to be a stalemate. If Pristina, Washington, London, or Berlin had any ability at knocking this out of the ballpark, it would have done so already. Since we know Belgrade and Pristina have stated they will ignore any decision that will be contrary to their wishes and interests, either one side or the other is going to continue to stonewall efforts at finding a compromise, or the ICJ, knowing what each side will do (and it's funny how Pristina continues to disregard any ICJ ruling while placing some hope of a "wave of recognitions" after the decision somehow validates its cause), an ambiguous ruling will most likely be given, giving both sides gains and losses - enough for Belgrade to convincingly argue not to recognize, and enough for countries hedging their decisions on what Belgrade does/doesn't do to follow suit. This won't "kill" Kosovo, but it will basically keep it in limbo unless the powers that call the shots decide to renegotiate. Belgrade won’t “get Kosovo back”, but there will be nothing allowing it to move forward much further. Hence, stalemate.

"Not surprising, but Jeremic could not and would not have made that statement had he known it would have incurred the ire of Washington, London, and Berlin."
(Mike, 1 July 2010 17:44)

Wait Mike..Mike..wait.. did you just say Jeremic does not say things unless they are acceptable to Washington, Berlin and London? Or is this another Mike? :)

That's funny, China always says the V word on any issue dealing with Taiwan. But the "cracking Russia" delusion is a real laugh. The only people who are cracking right now are the very few ICJ judge who are trying to persuade the other judges to rule in favor of the UDI. I noticed the american judge resigned rather than give a ruling that would harm Israel. Was that judge replaced yet?
(JohnBoy, 1 July 2010 17:13)
Kind of behind on the times are we. There are no pending cases against Israel, the last advisory opinion was about Israel and the building of the wall isolating Palestine. However that opinion was rendered in 2004, and Burgenthal was the sole dissent. I guess you could say 6 years afterward was the reason he resigned.
His resignation is not effective until September, long after the expected opinion on Kosovo, so his resignation should not affect the outcome of that case either.

Why would you ask for an opinion and then refuse to comply with it? It was Vuk Jeremic, who initiated the court process in the International Court. Sending a message like this right now, means that he believes that the declaration of independence of Kosovo is according to international standards.

"No Kosovo recognition regardless of ICJ"

Nobody can force you and nobody has the will to try it.But thinking that you can outsmart those who invented and perfected diplomacy is very naive. In case the ICJ verdict doesn't go your way Vuk, you gave the serbian opposition a free ticket to come back in power.Legally the kosovo case will have been open open for a long time to come if you haven't asked that question to the court created & financed by the people who made kosovo independent.


"Ours is a democratic country, and our position on the unilateral declaration is based on our Constitution and mandatory decisions passed by the National Parliament, and enjoys the support of an overwhelming majority of our citizens," Jeremić explained.

Did this democratic country of Serbia allowed all its citizens including the albanians in the "southern province of kosovo" to vote for the constitution? Did Serbia unilaterally included Kosovo as part of its territory in the constitution although the negotiations over the status of the province were still going on?

@ iluvkosova
============

I think you misunderstood my comment (I'm Albanian by the way).

I was simply trying to highlight the fact that the "international law protectors" here conveniently gloss over the atrocities of Milosevic and that trying to point that fact to them is like trying to talk to a wall... basically a waste of time :).

"I don't understand your logic. ICJ will never force any country, Serbia included, to recognize Kosova. Likewise, ICJ will never (well, doesn't have the power in the first place) force K-Albanians to re-negotiate their status with Serbia." (miri)

-- That's a stalemate by my definition.

"In the case of an ambiguous ruling Serbia is left with nothing."

-- In the case of an ambiguous ruling, Serbia is left with what it currently controls. The current fault lines become the new political realities. An ambiguous ruling doesn’t take away what Pristina current has, but denies it any more control than what it has.

"There is no doubt that after the ambiguous decision of ICJ Kosova will be in much much better position simply because it has NOT BROKEN INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE HAS PROVEN"

-- How? The ICJ needs to say that Pristina's UDI was in accordance with international law in order to gain the upper hand in the diplomatic game. If it's recognized as a fait accompli that is left for individual states to decide what to do, the diplomatic slog continues. You may get a few more recognitions, and you may actually lose a few recognitions. Unless the ruling actually says that international law wasn’t broken, Pristina hasn’t won anything.

"After ICJ, I have no idea what is Russia going to say."

-- Considering the statement made yesterday by Vuk and the little hoohah that took place in KM this morning, I think it's safe to say Russia will continue to back Belgrade, as will a lot of other countries on the contingency of what Belgrade does/doesn't do. I seriously doubt Russia or China will come over to Pristina's side.

"Either way the stalemate applies to both countries, and both will continue for some time to hold the same grounds and suffer the same from this."

-- My point exactly. Hence the need to renegotiate to get out of the morass.

"I beg to differ because the question has been closed for [Washington, London, and Berlin]. Kosova is independent and Serbia and Russia can do nothing about it, neither politically, economically and more importantly militarily."

-- That may be true, but there's very little they can do to force Serbia to comply, and there's very little they can do to extend Pristina's claims to authority in areas it doesn't exist. Moreover, Washington, Kosovo's biggest ally, is being pretty cooperative with the one country that, in your opinion, is holding up Kosovo's progress.

Again, stalemate.

"Belgrade has absolutely nothing to offer to K. and as a result it’s in no position to make a case for negotiations."

-- I really don't think, and I really can't see, Belgrade making a move to reintegrate Kosovo. We haven't heard of any plan, and the only efforts in Kosovo that Belgrade seems to care about is the north. When was the last time we heard Belgrade complain that its authority in Prizren is being ignored by EULEX? Even Gracanica is largely left to its own devices (and resents Belgrade for it but hold an equal level of contempt for Pristina). But at the same time, I do not see anything that Pristina can offer to the K-Serbs, and over the last two years has done everything imaginable to keep itself out of any position to make demands either.

Hence, stalemate. Stalemate all around.