Tadić: Solution together with Albanians

"Serbia wishes a compromise solution that is acceptable to both sides"
We are going back to square one with this Serbian logic. THERE WILL BE NO COMPROMISE WHEN IT COMES TO KOSOVA'S INDPENDENCE FROM SERBIA! Let's be honest at least once with your people. The way forward would be Serbia's acceptance of the new REALITY in KOSOVA, same rights for Serbs in Kosova as to the Albanians living in Presevo, Bujanovac and Medvedja, free movement of goods, people and all together in the EU. That would be a REALISTIC approach to the problem.
When it comes to EULEX mission in Kosova time will tell that although the Kosova institutions support the overall mission no action will be taken without the approval of Kosova's institution. In the name of law and order the Serbian government influence/manipulation will be reduced radically in northern Kosova.

Yes he does need to negotiate. As he knows fair well that he will never enter the EU untill serbia recognises the republic of Kosova.

With respect to Kosovo Albanian posters but you don't seem to understand how the situation has changed.

Smacking Tadic's hand away rather than accepting his offer of negotiations (this is essentially what he is saying) will not impress international players in this Kosovo 'game'. Particularly since your international supporters sound much less enthusiastic than they used to be.

I can only read the angry reaction as some kind of realisation that Tadic / Serbia will have to be dealt with, but like children you are refusing to see reality.

I have said numerous times that the only way for a lasting settlement is if Serbs and Albanians sit down for real negotiations on Kosovo.

Surely you people want to live somewhere without having to check your back every five minutes. Surely you actually care about the opinions of those people that live in Kosovo who are not Albanians? Isn't it the right to self determination that you wanted to express all those years. Don't Serbs have that right?

I know negotiation and compromise is not as sexy as resistance and reaching your goals 100%, but this is real life.

Forget about that EA !
You mean equal rights in Mitrovica and Presevo.
Again you are exposing your strategy:
Set a foot into Nortern Mitrovica,clean it "radically"(just to use your expression) from Serbs
and then first demand autonomy of Presevo and when the dust has settled and your demographic weapon has played out claim it as East Kosovo.

Sorry this film you ain`t going to see since everybody(Serbs and the international community) knows what your intentions are.

Just try to clean Mitrovica "radically" and I will be the first one to fight and defend it on the bridge.

Mr Tadic must have been reading from Mr Kostunicas's book.

I have to get that book too. Seems to be very entertaining.

So, Tadic will recognize the legitimate leaders of the Repubilc of Kosova.. good start..
the Formuala is simple: "No recognition, No negotiation".

"This increases the changes that Serbia will, after the International Court of Justice decision, which we believe will be in our favor, return to the negotiating table and redefine the question of the future status of Kosovo+

By the same virtue, you can sit down with Hungary to redefine the future status of Voivodina. Or maybe it is a "done deal?" :) There you go sweet hearts.

Serbia is the biggest player in the region and the days of bombing it into submission are over. Tadic has steered a very successful pragmatic line given what has been inherited from Milosevic's incompetent past.

The agenda in the region is changing and Serbia is a key player. The route to the future is very different from the past - yet for Serbia the strong sense of ownership of its territory will not go away. When an American says 'God bless America' that is exactly the same feeling.

I can never expect an Albanian to say 'God bless Kosovo' and really mean it, because the fundamental entity is still Albanian ethnic nationhood.

The situation of the last few years has been because of the demographic pressures produced by the the growth in an under-resources Albanian nation. Serbia has to live with the consequences of that - it certainly has not dealt with it well up until now. However, Tadic has found the best route possible given the circumstances - it is inclusive and it conforms to international law.

"We have repeated this so many times for everyone: Serbia wishes a compromise solution that is acceptable to both sides, and will not accept a solution that would see one side, the Albanian, gain everything, while the Serb side loses all,"

Tadic is looking for Pareto-optimal solution of respecting the 95 without making stay wors off the 5...

Soltuion: Ahtisari- but yuo refused it... al the rest is pure and pathetic demagogy.

Where is the bargaining range bganon? Why would a Kosovar accept anything short of independence?

Serbia is starting to crack, rhetoric such as "fake state" and "kosova is serbian" is starting to wear off from the Serbian vocabulary. The more Kosovo is governed by its' institutions the more the legality and sovereignty will become more legitimate.

I have to say I really like Tadic. I know some of my colleagues on Team Kosovo think otherwise, but I really have to applaud his appoach in finding a solution to Kosovo while speaking a language the EUrocrats can both understand and appreciate. However, there are a few caveats that need to be present in order for such solutions to manifest.

1. Sooner or later, he continued, "we must sit down and talk with the legitimate Kosovo Albanian representatives".

That's absolutely true, but what are the chances someone like Thaci or Sejdiu is going to bargain? Furthermore, what are the chances any K-Albanian is going to budge so long as they know their American life line is pumping money, weapons, and legitimacy into their parastate? People negotiate when they run out of options on their own. Albanians will only return to the table once America withdraws unconditional support for them and at least a generation from now has passed. As much as I regard Veton Surroi as the closest thing the K-Albanians have to a politician, I doubt even he would be willing to compromise at this point. If BG concentrates on the Serb sectors, they can achieve most of their goals. If they start looking at Albanian, they better be ready to make significant compromises, or be ready to cut the cord.

2. "If we did recognize Kosovo and Metohija's independence, why did the world negotiate with Serbia over the six points, why was Serbia, which according to the opposition has recognized Kosovo's independence, a crucial factor in these negotiations?"

Again, very true, but in reality the lines of administgrative division were drawn along the ethnic fault lines that at this point, one can see from space. No serious politician (including Dan Fried apparently) thinks Kosovo is a functioning multiethnic state. The 6-point compromise was icing on an already made cake. The question now remains whether Belgrade will sign away heavily-populated Albanian areas. Are they willing to write off Prizren? Djakovica? Urosevac? And will BG agree to Serb sectors turning into veritable RS's within a separate Kosovo Protectorate? Are they willing to agree to have direct access to these areas but have these areas part of a separate EU Protectorate?

3. "Tadić explained that the first phase of this active policy was to seek the ICJ's opinion on the legality of Kosovo Albanians' unilaterally declared independence, while the second was to, through the six-point plan, create conditions for EULEX to deploy in Kosovo in line with the standards and principles contained in Resolution 1244, and the mission's status neutrality that overrides the Ahtisaari plan."

I'm beginning to see a pattern in which the EU is actually trying to pry direct control of Kosovo away from both Serbs and Albanians. An international protectorate could very well solve the impasse, but let's say that the ICJ ruling comes back (and let's be honest here, they're not going to give a definitive answer one way or the other), and says that Kosovo's sovereignty was not in line with international law, but is already visible present on the ground. Let's say the ICJ recommends the EU literally take Kosovo over as an internationally legitimate protectorate. This could very well encourage a number of other states to "recognize" Kosovo as such, thus taking away any idea that Kosovo is part of Serbia's territory that is administered from Belgrade.

There are a number of scenarios that can come into play here, and Tadic and Jeremic have found common voice with the EU and other international powers. They may very well get what they want, but at the price of deeper EULEX integration. I wonder if they would be satisfied if Kosovo were to be transformed into an international protectorate.

All the usual suspects I see. As I have said many times before, a sustainable solution is one where both sides gain and lose something. Tadic is absolutely right. I think the many posters here live in a different dimension. I also think the KAlbanians should be interrogating their own political class, and stop using Serbs as an excuse to continue their intransigience.

Sorry Tadić, but terrorists and criminals do not understand the meaning of civilised negotiations. They would prefer to negotiate by threats and call to arms, so good luck!

You are better off working on strengthening the functional partition with freedom of movement and transportation between all Serbian and non-Albanian areas. That will free those people and give them access to all they need.

The Albanians can then live in their pretend and isolated little "Kosova" that will eventually end up completely bankrupt.

Albanez,

I'm not surprised by your inability at understanding my posts. Nationalists rarely do. Since you've been posting here, your comments are carbon copy ramblings of Albanian propaganda. Like others, I barely read through them anymore as its little more than shouting and chest pumping. People like you are a dime a dozen on this site, and being called out by an Albanian groupthinker does nothing for me.

Maybe it's you who should read my comments more carefully and begin to read something outside Albanian news sites. The European Union has been given legitimate authority to govern Kosovo as a neutral region. That means they will make further compromises with Belgrade and Pristina. Somehow you think that Albanians are in total control of the region. Then please explain why Thaci was basically ignored in the 6-point plan. Please explain why Thaci et al have no authority in Serb sectors. And please explain to me how, other than use of force, demographic shift, or procreation, are you going to get them? Take a look at Bosnia. If you're lucky, that's how Kosovo's going to look. and if Kosovo passports mean anything, I suspect many Albanians will be using them to buy one-way tickets out of the region.

Albanian nationalism is pretty easy to identify: "we're the most independent minded people in the world, but we need the help of other powers to do our work for us." I like your earlier statement about Hillary Clinton coming in to save the day for you - typical nationalism. With Kosovo being controlled by the EU, the UN, NATO, KFOR, the Boy Scouts, and the League of Women Voters, explain to me how you are able to make any descions on your own as a sovereign state?

Compromise, is the key. Belgrade is realizing it. If you can't find the purpose for my comments, nor my logic, you're taking yourself way too seriously. No sense in shooting for the moon when you can't even back out of the driveway.

>> yet for Serbia the strong sense of ownership of its territory will not go away

Let me guess, the sense of freedom and the vow not to let happen what Serbs did during thew 96 years will go away for Albanians that actually live there? Serbia is not a key player, NATO is, plus this is the time of Albanians. We control the Adriatic, the center of the Balkans, Albania, Kosova, FYROM and can influence Montenegro. Population numbers wise we will reach Serbia in 10 years. Serbia is an outcast, no NATO and EU has placed conditions on you

Everyone will join EU so there is money there.

B92, I rephrased it, obviously you are sensitive of Presheva talk :)

>>>> Surely you people want to live somewhere without having to check your back every five minutes.

Serbs threatening another war is nothing new, ask your neighbors. The ONLY way to be sure is to have your own army and agreements with others. (Albania and /or Croatia in addition to NATO)

>>>>Surely you actually care about the opinions of those people that live in Kosovo who are not Albanians? Isn't it the right to self determination that you wanted to express all those years. Don't Serbs have that right?

We care about it and will give them EVERY right that Serbs give to their minorities in Vojvodina, Sandzak, Presevo. Lead the way, and we will follow. Fair, right?

Serbs are panicking: The K Army (small and lightly armed but still an army) will start in January and with Hillary we can expect to reach 50+% of UN as small countries see the writing in the wall. After that, 'International law' becomes mute since most nations have recognized. EULEX will dismantle dual 'governments' as well.

Most importantly, Serbia this year has to choose EU or the illusion of still having Kosovo:

"If Serbia believes and wants to start talks on its accession in the EU, it is then Serbia without Kosovo, said Kacin, who is in Belgrade to take part in the second inter-parliamentary meeting of the EU and Serbia.

He underscored that he always refers to Serbia without Kosovo, because he is in charge for Serbia without Kosovo, which, according to him, is a separate problem. I believe that at the moment there are no citizens in Serbia who believe that the status of a candidate state for Serbia would apply to Kosovo too, said Kacin."

http://www.emportal.co.yu/en/news/serbia/71033.html

Kosova will not let you negotiate for them and you can't say "we'll get them after we get in EU," you will not be able to veto Kosova's own membership and Albania will be in EU at the same as you so K-Albanians will have access to EU.

Basically, reality is hitting hard.

Logic tell me why you are using emotive words like rape? Show me where is the rape in Kosovo?

Why not describe the situation as it is, in reality rather than try to stir your own (and others) emotions?

Why would a Kosovo Albanian (not 'Kosovar', I'll take that as an admission on your part that Kosovo Serbs are not considered Kosovars) accept anything less than independence?

Perhaps because it would be fair? Or are you so drunk on the heady brew of nationalism and previous success that fairness is irrelevant?

And your idea that moderation is evidence of somebody cracking is laughable.

"We have repeated this so many times for everyone: Serbia wishes a compromise solution that is acceptable to both sides, and will not accept a solution that would see one side, the Albanian, gain everything, while the Serb side loses all," Tadić concluded.

Mr.Tadic i wish you could gain as much as the other side,the albanian side. Our gain was more than 10,000 people dead, 90% of the population expulsed from Kosovo,massive graves and rape.

Thanks for that outpouring roberto, I'll appreciate it if you don't bother addressing me any longer. I have no need to justify myself to you, but I will say this, if you don't believe in negotiation (the real issue) don't condemn those that advocate negotiations or a compromise solution.

Florin it sounds like you had a flaming war in one of those awful chatrooms staffed by nationalists of various persuasions

I don't do denial of crimes, nor do I drape myself in victim mentality. I always try to take a fair approach.
My advice to you is to stop trying to search for the enemy, why not try the moderate approach?

Jovan, yes we are obeyers, we just don't obey you!
Never have, never will.

Mike, I have yet to understand your reason for posting. Why do you keep mentioning 'protectorate' ? Do you honestly think Albanians will fall for it or are you day dreaming (Divided Kosova, ruled by EU and Serbs, failed state, status for ever in limbo) ? In less than a generation, Albania and Kosova will be 99% integrated: major highway in 2009, same tax laws, energy coop, same school curricula /books, army coop etc. In a generation we'll one united 8-9 million Albanian market. Read my previous post regarding Serbia and EU; Serbs must make a choice very soon. 80% of NATO and 80% of EU have recognized us, more are comign soon.

And the ICJ will be ambiguous, both sides can claim victory but the reality will not change.

Dear Bganon and other Serbs

Whenever the issue of Serbian war crimes in Kosova (and even in Bosnia) come up, you always come up with the same standard answer: WHERE ARE THE WAR CRIMES? CAN YOU SHOW ME? DO YOU HAVE PROOF?

If you stop and think about what you are asking, you will realize that this question can never be answered by one person, especially on the internet, but only by forensic teams out on the ground.

First, it is impossible for anyone individual to actually pull out the bodies of the victims, place a sticker on them, and lay them out in order by age and hair color, so as to "prove" that war crimes took place.

Second, even if a person was able to do that, you would still say: FINE, YOU HAVE BODIES, BUT NOW YOU HAVE TO SHOW ME THAT SERBS KILLED THEM. THESE WERE ALL KLA VICTIMS FOR SURE.

And even if proof that the atrocities were committed by Serbs was offered to you (such as the finding of trucks full of Albanian women and children's bodies sunk in the Danube River, or video of the Scorpions executing innocent civilians), you still come back with very believable answers such as: THOSE TRUCKS IN THE DANUBE WERE FILLED WITH PUMPKINS/ THEY WERE PLACED IN BELGRADE BY THE KLA/ OR NATO DROPPED THEM FROM THE PLANES! As for the video from Srebrenica, the victims were called ACTORS who were clearly PLAYING in a propaganda FILM to make the Serbs look evil!

In other words, any response/explanation will do for you, as long as Serbs are held to be innocent! This is why I don't even try to convince you that your side committed crimes on a much greater scale than anyone else involved in the Balkan Wars. You will NEVER believe that, no matter what. I have accepted that fact. However, I thank God that most of the Western nations, led by America, have understood that fact too, and continue to support the Kosovar state.


And as far as Jovan's comment calling Albanians "obeyers", I thank God too, that there are Serbs like yourself with these racially supremacist beliefs, who help keep Serbia seem a bully in the eyes of the world. Keep up the good work sir.

And B82, don't censure this message, there is nothing here which attacks anyone on racial and hateful terms.

I love these comments based on demography that represent Albanian woman as photo-copy machines for children.

And how do yuo expelling the density of Kosova that is double higher than in southern Serbia. If they have violated the border I guess they could have continued in the southern Serbia.

What about the ethnic cleansing of southern Serbia from Nis and downwards of Albanians??- maybe a large part of these ethnically cleansed Albanians have found safety in Kosova- therefore we have 2 M in Kosova living in a twice larger territory that 1M in south Serbia Nis including???

I guess I fund a solution to your mystery of photo-copy machines.

dear bganon -- i am really growing tired of your condescending and lecturing tone towards the people of albanian ethnicity. you and your "moderate" approach! your fearless leaders preach the worst nationalistic excesses, full of "kosovo and metojiha, bla bla", the worst intolerance, the most consistent (attempted) bullying of ethnic albanians and anyone around the WORLD who chooses to see them as real people with democratic rights... and then you accuse THEM of acting like children! after all of the horrors your beloved country has bestowed upon them, in the name of the serbian people...


Dear 'roberto' from 'frisco'. We are getting tired of your condescending and lecturing tone towards the people of Serbian and non Albanian ethnicity.

You talk about nationalistic excesses of 'our leaders'. Well its the nationalistic excess of the Albanian leadership which has cleansed Kosmet of 250,000 of its Serbs, Roma, Gorani and Jewish populations.

You speak of intolerance and bullying, well what the hell do you call what has/is happening to the remaining Serbs, Roma and Gorani peoples in the province who live behind barbed war, have no freedom of movement are assaulted in the street when they speak Serbo-Croat, have the resting place of their loved ones destroyed, have their churches and places of worship desecrated and destroyed, have their schools torn down because 'they dont comply with planning regulations' are stoned when they visit church on Sundays, their hospitals are frequently denied proper medical supplies because 'they dont have the proper paperwork' have their loved ones abducted and murdered for their organs.

If thats not intimidation, intolerance and bullying, frankly sir, I dont know what is.

Your comments sir hide a disgusting hidden racist undertone towards the Serbian people.

you don´t control anything in the balkans, don´t fool yourselves.

it´s the countries around the adriatic who have got the control, plus NATO. but YOU are obeyers, that´s still a sad truth that you have not discovered yet.

@Albanez

1)There are only 5,7 million Albanians versus 9 million Serbs in the Balkans.

2)Romania and particularly Spain as one of the largest powers in the EU will veto any "Kosovo" acession to NATO and EU.Russia and China will veto UN membership.

3)If you dare to stir up trouble in neighbouring countries you might very well loose support from the West.Remember 2001,we kicked you out of the Presevo valley after you attempted to steal it and the result:
openening of the ground zone for the Serbian army and souring relations between you and the West.

So the clue is:

If you want to progress you will have to sit down with us and negotiate otherwise you will stay a no go area for foreign investors and young Albanians will try to get out of this hole to make it to Western Europe..

"I can only read the angry reaction as some kind of realisation that Tadic / Serbia will have to be dealt with, but like children you are refusing to see reality..." (bganon)

dear bganon -- i am really growing tired of your condescending and lecturing tone towards the people of albanian ethnicity. you and your "moderate" approach! your fearless leaders preach the worst nationalistic excesses, full of "kosovo and metojiha, bla bla", the worst intolerance, the most consistent (attempted) bullying of ethnic albanians and anyone around the WORLD who chooses to see them as real people with democratic rights... and then you accuse THEM of acting like children! after all of the horrors your beloved country has bestowed upon them, in the name of the serbian people...

this debate is not being held in a vacuum but has everything to do with the horrors of the very recent past. instead you treat this like some kind of chess game, and can't possibly understand why the other side is so pissed, so "emotional." i think it shows a great lack of clarity, historical but also ethical, on your part.

if i thought that all of OTpor had turned this way, it would really make me deeply sad, not to mention angry. i know that is not the case, but this vile and bullying nationalism really seems to be dominating over there, just as it did in the 90s.

there is only ONE point i agree with tadic on -- the belgrade regime does need to sit down at the table with the govt of Kosovo/a and negotiate, over a variety of issues (not borders.) but they must do so as equals, not as master/slave, which is exactly what they played out until the very last moment leading up to kosovo/a's independence this past feb. Their "negotiation" style fueled yet another series of sickening mini-spectacles.

if people there really cared about what was best for all of the people of kosovo/a, they wouldn't be lecturing the albanian posters -- they would be trying to reach out to them, through different channels, to form real dialogue and actual opportunites for progress. the blgd helsinki committe and others have made such inroads, such communications, minus the deafening ultra-nationalist rhetoric, and i strongly applaud and support them for it.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

The first question is what are you - Kosovars or Albanians?

Once you figure out what you are, then you can discuss Tadic's comments.

There's a lot of mistrust towards Serbia and its politicians bganon, a lot. There was a deal and it was broken once in 1989, when Kosovo autonomy was unilaterally revoked. Serbia needs to do a lot more to be trusted again by the people of Kosovo, so the politicians in Kosovo can have more space for compromise with Serbia. Not on status anyway. Six months of DS in power is obviously not enough. What if DS looses the next elections and the opposition comes to power again in Serbia? You know how much they like to declare things null..

Once the Albanians realise that they are their worst enemies and stop blaming Serbians, FYROMians or any other neighbour for their problems, then and only then can negotiations start.

Otherwise there is no point negotiating and it seems the West is beginning to wake up to this reality. Time will tell!

>>>>>1)There are only 5,7 million Albanians versus 9 million Serbs in the Balkans.

Nope. They are 4.2 Million registered in Albania (in civil records) 2 million in Kosova and .6 million in FYROM. Each year in Kosova alone 30,000 children are being born, a very healthy number (3.2 kids per woman). After a generation I said we will have 8-9 million. Some are immigrants but many will eventually return, especially EU ones. Maybe we'll have immigrants too one day and that ads to it as well (only 80% of Serbia is really Serb) Albania has over $12 Billion in oil & gas http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14861/ , 300 miles of pristine coastline, Kosova has plenty of minerals so together we will manage as time goes by. Now it's hard but we know.

>>>2)Romania and particularly Spain as one of the largest powers in the EU will veto any "Kosovo" acession to NATO and EU.Russia and China will veto UN membership.

China will not (UK helped them on Tibet by changing ONE word on the agreement,) Russia maybe, but USA and Russia have so many things going on that they will find an agreement. US gives them something and Russia gives Kosova.

Romania will not, Spain is powerful but they will not be the only ones left, in years their government will change. This of course is IF Serbia doesn't want to get in EU, if you do you will recognize and everyone else has no objections.

No one said not to talk, two neighboring states have a lot of things to talk about. Unless Serbia recognizes, Serbia will not go anywhere either.

Mike, they asked Thaci a lot of the 6-points, notice how the language was diluted to the point of being meaningless. Officially he opposed it, privately US, UK, France, Germany and Italy said they mean nothing, like 1244 on Feb 17th 2008.EU is there because of Ahtisaari, regardless of what they say in public. They cannot and will not rule unless Albanian agree.

Daniel Fried: "The EULEX deployment throughout Kosovo will be a good thing for Kosovo’s sovereignty, territorial integrity, and independence. EULEX will deploy with its original mandate, and will cooperate with the government of Kosovo throughout Kosovo. This was a good day…it was a good day because the Government of the Republic of Kosovo insisted on some conditions for the EULEX deployment, and the UN respected these conditions in its report,"

You will see if Serbia matters now that EULEX is in. The fact that Tadic wants 'to talk with Albanian leadership' shows that he is preparing Serbia for the obvious. The German Amb (yes, German) said to Blic that EULEX means no division of Kosovo. Compromise sounds great, but in reality it means do what Serbia wants or else. The time for compromise of sovereignty was over on Feb 17, 2008. Is anyone asking Serbia to compromise with Turkey? If Turkey asked you, what would you say? Little by little Serbs will understand how they behaved and that Kosova is gone. Partition brings in the table other areas in Serbia, anything short of independence is not acceptable so it's all done.

Hillary Clinton will be the Sec of State and she says KosovAAh. FYI: Mother Teresa mention Kosova to her and Bill right before she died as well.

dear johny

I know your post is directed at Mike, but some of the comments you made got me got me thinking... wow this is an interesting perspective...

"I used to ask you and the Serbs here to show me what is the point for us Albanians to accept to be autonomous under Serbia ( an impoverished state) when we could declare independence from Serbia and be autonomous under the EU ( plus US, if you think about it)."

First of all Serbia is not nearly as impoverished as you like to think, given the fact that it was bombed by NATO for 78 days, faced years of sanctions, hyperinflation and political isolation, I'd say it is recovering well or as well as its opportunities allowed it to.

Second, you want to trade one form of autonomy (under Serbia) for another (under EU/US)... because of money? And I thought all you guys wanted was independence. Let me tell you something about EULEX (autonomy under EU) my friend, it is a Rule of Law Mission. That means European police, judiciary etc are going to come to Kosovo and tell you guys how to run things the "European" way (e.g. among other things, they will teach KPS that instead of taking bribes when issuing speeding tickets they should actually print the ticket and charge the driver the fine, basic things like that, kind of like going back to kindergarten). This is what US/EU are financing because they need you guys to play ball and play nice while Camp Bondsteel continues to operate smoothly and protects them nearby pipelines :)

Anyways, lets move along..

"When it comes to Kosova, Serbia has lost it forever. That is not the same as; there will be no Serbs in Kosova."

Absolutely no to the first sentence, and yes to the second one. Why would Serbs go south of Ibar when they know they will be in danger. The same applies to Krajna Serbs. Why can't they go back to their homes? Because the lovely Ustasha adoring croats that await them there?

"Kosova will be under EU+US patronage or even protectorate for a very long, long time ( maybe even 50 to 100 years) before it is allowed to have full, unconditional independence. By that time many things will be different and look different."

Whoa there horsey, 50-100 years??? Geopolitical interests change much much faster than that. You will only be supported for as long as there is money to be made for the EU/US. They don't look at you guys as orphan kids who need a home and so provide you with one out of their kind hearts. That's not capitalism, and the West is built on capitalism, so they will support you until they no longer have an interest in you. They do the same to everyone, that is why the so called worlds biggest democracies (Germany, US, UK etc) are really the worlds biggest Hypocrisies.

Ok and then the rest of your comment talks about how compromises cannot be made with Belgrade (nothing really worth quoting from this area). Compromise is the equilibrium of this situation. Serbia is already there and willing to compromise but you guys aren't, but you will have to once you see US/EU support fading or will you take up arms instead and try and rejoin with Albania? I really hope that if your lifeline (US/EU) is cut off you will not pick the latter option as not only will it ruin your EU integration process but a lot of needless bloodshed will take place.

Mike I don't know if you've skipped my posts like you say you do with most Albanian posts, but I have been telling you and other Serbs here that Kosova was going to be under EU patronage even before February, 17. I used to ask you and the Serbs here to show me what is the point for us Albanians to accept to be autonomous under Serbia ( an impoverished state) when we could declare independence from Serbia and be autonomous under the EU ( plus US, if you think about it).
Whether you are Serbian or Albanian you have to be blind to not see the following:

1) When it comes to Kosova, Serbia has lost it forever. That is not the same as; there will be no Serbs in Kosova.

2) Kosova will be under EU+US patronage or even protectorate for a very long, long time ( maybe even 50 to 100 years) before it is allowed to have full, unconditional independence. By that time many things will be different and look different.

3) Serb areas in Kosova are going to be governed in a more direct way by the EU and are going to be tied to Prishtina very loosely ( I personally think only in name, they will be a sort of EU protectorate within the EU protectorate of Kosova).


Mike said: "Compromise, is the key. Belgrade is realizing it. If you can't find the purpose for my comments, nor my logic, you're taking yourself way too seriously. No sense in shooting for the moon when you can't even back out of the driveway.
(Mike, 30 November 2008 20:36)

I don't think Belgrade has realized anything. If someone was really talking about compromise and wants compromise, Serbia's integrity over Kosova is out of the window. The moment a Serbian politician talks about compromise and then talks about Serbian integrity over Kosova then there is no room whatsoever about compromise there. The labeling and relabeling of autonomy ( such as more than something but less then something) does not constitute a compromise. It is a non-starter for us Albanians. I am telling you this has nothing to do with Albanian nationalism or whatever you Serbs out there say to make yourself feel better. It has a lot to do about how we fell for previous compromises and paid for that with the blood of our fathers, sisters, mothers, and brothers. You guys call Haradinaj and Ceku terrorists. Personally I could care less what you call them. What you fail to realize is that in their story is the story of us Albanians. Like Ceku's father and Haradinaj's brother every Albanian in Kosova has a father,sister,mother,brother, or cousin who was beheaded by the Serbian forces, who was burned alive or shot in cold blood by the Serbian forces. In majority of cases these were civilians. I have personally seen 70 years old Albanian women who killed with shotguns, where you could see through their stomachs because of the huge hole the shotgun caused. Now when I and other Albanians have witnessed that we came to the realization and vowed to never let that happen again; that means never again will we let Kosova be under the sovereignty of Serbia. We fell for it once, we are not falling for it again, no matter how it is packaged. When I mean we are not gonna let that happen; every Albanian out there will tell that it includes all means to prevent that from happening, political, diplomatic and others.
Now when a Serbian politician talks about compromise he should start with the last sentence. Only a fool, and I believe there are plenty in Serbian politics, thinks that either Serbia or Kosova will be peaceful under Serbian sovereignty.

Doing things in hurry:

it shoudl stay: how do yuo "explain" the density of Kosova that is double higher than in southern Serbia.

and

therefore we have 2 M in Kosova living in a twice "smaller" territory that 1M in south Serbia Nis including??? Just whatch the map...

Florin -- i really like your contributions, content AND form. keep on coming...

as for my own postings here, i have reread a # of them. and though i totally agree with the content :) i think i have to admit that my style is a bit didactic... pounding, pounding pounding... i could say that i am just responding to the extremism of the other side, but that would not be 100% accurate, since i've known myself a good long time. in fact, sometimes it seems like a bit of "moral S and M" as one well known radio personality famously described our Dr. Laura (a rather wacky, off the wall radio shrink/moralist.)

so, i think i will resolve to at least try to refrain from making negative comments towards other posters, unless i am PERsonally provoked. after all, they are entitled to their ideas.

but i will still feel free to make comments about politicians, govt's, media, hate-speech, etc.

anyway, just some musings, for what they are worth. who knows -- maybe others might take my lead and bring things down just one or two decibels.

peace.

robert-0
frisco

"Serbia wishes a compromise solution that is acceptable to both sides"
We are going back to square one with this Serbian logic. THERE WILL BE NO COMPROMISE WHEN IT COMES TO KOSOVA'S INDPENDENCE FROM SERBIA! Let's be honest at least once with your people. The way forward would be Serbia's acceptance of the new REALITY in KOSOVA, same rights for Serbs in Kosova as to the Albanians living in Presevo, Bujanovac and Medvedja, free movement of goods, people and all together in the EU. That would be a REALISTIC approach to the problem.
When it comes to EULEX mission in Kosova time will tell that although the Kosova institutions support the overall mission no action will be taken without the approval of Kosova's institution. In the name of law and order the Serbian government influence/manipulation will be reduced radically in northern Kosova.

Forget about that EA !
You mean equal rights in Mitrovica and Presevo.
Again you are exposing your strategy:
Set a foot into Nortern Mitrovica,clean it "radically"(just to use your expression) from Serbs
and then first demand autonomy of Presevo and when the dust has settled and your demographic weapon has played out claim it as East Kosovo.

Sorry this film you ain`t going to see since everybody(Serbs and the international community) knows what your intentions are.

Just try to clean Mitrovica "radically" and I will be the first one to fight and defend it on the bridge.

Yes he does need to negotiate. As he knows fair well that he will never enter the EU untill serbia recognises the republic of Kosova.

Sorry Tadić, but terrorists and criminals do not understand the meaning of civilised negotiations. They would prefer to negotiate by threats and call to arms, so good luck!

You are better off working on strengthening the functional partition with freedom of movement and transportation between all Serbian and non-Albanian areas. That will free those people and give them access to all they need.

The Albanians can then live in their pretend and isolated little "Kosova" that will eventually end up completely bankrupt.

So, Tadic will recognize the legitimate leaders of the Repubilc of Kosova.. good start..
the Formuala is simple: "No recognition, No negotiation".

Where is the bargaining range bganon? Why would a Kosovar accept anything short of independence?

Serbia is starting to crack, rhetoric such as "fake state" and "kosova is serbian" is starting to wear off from the Serbian vocabulary. The more Kosovo is governed by its' institutions the more the legality and sovereignty will become more legitimate.

"We have repeated this so many times for everyone: Serbia wishes a compromise solution that is acceptable to both sides, and will not accept a solution that would see one side, the Albanian, gain everything, while the Serb side loses all," Tadić concluded.

Mr.Tadic i wish you could gain as much as the other side,the albanian side. Our gain was more than 10,000 people dead, 90% of the population expulsed from Kosovo,massive graves and rape.

Mr Tadic must have been reading from Mr Kostunicas's book.

I have to get that book too. Seems to be very entertaining.

you don´t control anything in the balkans, don´t fool yourselves.

it´s the countries around the adriatic who have got the control, plus NATO. but YOU are obeyers, that´s still a sad truth that you have not discovered yet.

B92, I rephrased it, obviously you are sensitive of Presheva talk :)

>>>> Surely you people want to live somewhere without having to check your back every five minutes.

Serbs threatening another war is nothing new, ask your neighbors. The ONLY way to be sure is to have your own army and agreements with others. (Albania and /or Croatia in addition to NATO)

>>>>Surely you actually care about the opinions of those people that live in Kosovo who are not Albanians? Isn't it the right to self determination that you wanted to express all those years. Don't Serbs have that right?

We care about it and will give them EVERY right that Serbs give to their minorities in Vojvodina, Sandzak, Presevo. Lead the way, and we will follow. Fair, right?

Serbs are panicking: The K Army (small and lightly armed but still an army) will start in January and with Hillary we can expect to reach 50+% of UN as small countries see the writing in the wall. After that, 'International law' becomes mute since most nations have recognized. EULEX will dismantle dual 'governments' as well.

Most importantly, Serbia this year has to choose EU or the illusion of still having Kosovo:

"If Serbia believes and wants to start talks on its accession in the EU, it is then Serbia without Kosovo, said Kacin, who is in Belgrade to take part in the second inter-parliamentary meeting of the EU and Serbia.

He underscored that he always refers to Serbia without Kosovo, because he is in charge for Serbia without Kosovo, which, according to him, is a separate problem. I believe that at the moment there are no citizens in Serbia who believe that the status of a candidate state for Serbia would apply to Kosovo too, said Kacin."

http://www.emportal.co.yu/en/news/serbia/71033.html

Kosova will not let you negotiate for them and you can't say "we'll get them after we get in EU," you will not be able to veto Kosova's own membership and Albania will be in EU at the same as you so K-Albanians will have access to EU.

Basically, reality is hitting hard.

"We have repeated this so many times for everyone: Serbia wishes a compromise solution that is acceptable to both sides, and will not accept a solution that would see one side, the Albanian, gain everything, while the Serb side loses all,"

Tadic is looking for Pareto-optimal solution of respecting the 95 without making stay wors off the 5...

Soltuion: Ahtisari- but yuo refused it... al the rest is pure and pathetic demagogy.

"This increases the changes that Serbia will, after the International Court of Justice decision, which we believe will be in our favor, return to the negotiating table and redefine the question of the future status of Kosovo+

By the same virtue, you can sit down with Hungary to redefine the future status of Voivodina. Or maybe it is a "done deal?" :) There you go sweet hearts.

>> yet for Serbia the strong sense of ownership of its territory will not go away

Let me guess, the sense of freedom and the vow not to let happen what Serbs did during thew 96 years will go away for Albanians that actually live there? Serbia is not a key player, NATO is, plus this is the time of Albanians. We control the Adriatic, the center of the Balkans, Albania, Kosova, FYROM and can influence Montenegro. Population numbers wise we will reach Serbia in 10 years. Serbia is an outcast, no NATO and EU has placed conditions on you

Everyone will join EU so there is money there.

Dear Bganon and other Serbs

Whenever the issue of Serbian war crimes in Kosova (and even in Bosnia) come up, you always come up with the same standard answer: WHERE ARE THE WAR CRIMES? CAN YOU SHOW ME? DO YOU HAVE PROOF?

If you stop and think about what you are asking, you will realize that this question can never be answered by one person, especially on the internet, but only by forensic teams out on the ground.

First, it is impossible for anyone individual to actually pull out the bodies of the victims, place a sticker on them, and lay them out in order by age and hair color, so as to "prove" that war crimes took place.

Second, even if a person was able to do that, you would still say: FINE, YOU HAVE BODIES, BUT NOW YOU HAVE TO SHOW ME THAT SERBS KILLED THEM. THESE WERE ALL KLA VICTIMS FOR SURE.

And even if proof that the atrocities were committed by Serbs was offered to you (such as the finding of trucks full of Albanian women and children's bodies sunk in the Danube River, or video of the Scorpions executing innocent civilians), you still come back with very believable answers such as: THOSE TRUCKS IN THE DANUBE WERE FILLED WITH PUMPKINS/ THEY WERE PLACED IN BELGRADE BY THE KLA/ OR NATO DROPPED THEM FROM THE PLANES! As for the video from Srebrenica, the victims were called ACTORS who were clearly PLAYING in a propaganda FILM to make the Serbs look evil!

In other words, any response/explanation will do for you, as long as Serbs are held to be innocent! This is why I don't even try to convince you that your side committed crimes on a much greater scale than anyone else involved in the Balkan Wars. You will NEVER believe that, no matter what. I have accepted that fact. However, I thank God that most of the Western nations, led by America, have understood that fact too, and continue to support the Kosovar state.


And as far as Jovan's comment calling Albanians "obeyers", I thank God too, that there are Serbs like yourself with these racially supremacist beliefs, who help keep Serbia seem a bully in the eyes of the world. Keep up the good work sir.

And B82, don't censure this message, there is nothing here which attacks anyone on racial and hateful terms.

"I can only read the angry reaction as some kind of realisation that Tadic / Serbia will have to be dealt with, but like children you are refusing to see reality..." (bganon)

dear bganon -- i am really growing tired of your condescending and lecturing tone towards the people of albanian ethnicity. you and your "moderate" approach! your fearless leaders preach the worst nationalistic excesses, full of "kosovo and metojiha, bla bla", the worst intolerance, the most consistent (attempted) bullying of ethnic albanians and anyone around the WORLD who chooses to see them as real people with democratic rights... and then you accuse THEM of acting like children! after all of the horrors your beloved country has bestowed upon them, in the name of the serbian people...

this debate is not being held in a vacuum but has everything to do with the horrors of the very recent past. instead you treat this like some kind of chess game, and can't possibly understand why the other side is so pissed, so "emotional." i think it shows a great lack of clarity, historical but also ethical, on your part.

if i thought that all of OTpor had turned this way, it would really make me deeply sad, not to mention angry. i know that is not the case, but this vile and bullying nationalism really seems to be dominating over there, just as it did in the 90s.

there is only ONE point i agree with tadic on -- the belgrade regime does need to sit down at the table with the govt of Kosovo/a and negotiate, over a variety of issues (not borders.) but they must do so as equals, not as master/slave, which is exactly what they played out until the very last moment leading up to kosovo/a's independence this past feb. Their "negotiation" style fueled yet another series of sickening mini-spectacles.

if people there really cared about what was best for all of the people of kosovo/a, they wouldn't be lecturing the albanian posters -- they would be trying to reach out to them, through different channels, to form real dialogue and actual opportunites for progress. the blgd helsinki committe and others have made such inroads, such communications, minus the deafening ultra-nationalist rhetoric, and i strongly applaud and support them for it.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

Jovan, yes we are obeyers, we just don't obey you!
Never have, never will.

Mike, I have yet to understand your reason for posting. Why do you keep mentioning 'protectorate' ? Do you honestly think Albanians will fall for it or are you day dreaming (Divided Kosova, ruled by EU and Serbs, failed state, status for ever in limbo) ? In less than a generation, Albania and Kosova will be 99% integrated: major highway in 2009, same tax laws, energy coop, same school curricula /books, army coop etc. In a generation we'll one united 8-9 million Albanian market. Read my previous post regarding Serbia and EU; Serbs must make a choice very soon. 80% of NATO and 80% of EU have recognized us, more are comign soon.

And the ICJ will be ambiguous, both sides can claim victory but the reality will not change.

I love these comments based on demography that represent Albanian woman as photo-copy machines for children.

And how do yuo expelling the density of Kosova that is double higher than in southern Serbia. If they have violated the border I guess they could have continued in the southern Serbia.

What about the ethnic cleansing of southern Serbia from Nis and downwards of Albanians??- maybe a large part of these ethnically cleansed Albanians have found safety in Kosova- therefore we have 2 M in Kosova living in a twice larger territory that 1M in south Serbia Nis including???

I guess I fund a solution to your mystery of photo-copy machines.

With respect to Kosovo Albanian posters but you don't seem to understand how the situation has changed.

Smacking Tadic's hand away rather than accepting his offer of negotiations (this is essentially what he is saying) will not impress international players in this Kosovo 'game'. Particularly since your international supporters sound much less enthusiastic than they used to be.

I can only read the angry reaction as some kind of realisation that Tadic / Serbia will have to be dealt with, but like children you are refusing to see reality.

I have said numerous times that the only way for a lasting settlement is if Serbs and Albanians sit down for real negotiations on Kosovo.

Surely you people want to live somewhere without having to check your back every five minutes. Surely you actually care about the opinions of those people that live in Kosovo who are not Albanians? Isn't it the right to self determination that you wanted to express all those years. Don't Serbs have that right?

I know negotiation and compromise is not as sexy as resistance and reaching your goals 100%, but this is real life.

Serbia is the biggest player in the region and the days of bombing it into submission are over. Tadic has steered a very successful pragmatic line given what has been inherited from Milosevic's incompetent past.

The agenda in the region is changing and Serbia is a key player. The route to the future is very different from the past - yet for Serbia the strong sense of ownership of its territory will not go away. When an American says 'God bless America' that is exactly the same feeling.

I can never expect an Albanian to say 'God bless Kosovo' and really mean it, because the fundamental entity is still Albanian ethnic nationhood.

The situation of the last few years has been because of the demographic pressures produced by the the growth in an under-resources Albanian nation. Serbia has to live with the consequences of that - it certainly has not dealt with it well up until now. However, Tadic has found the best route possible given the circumstances - it is inclusive and it conforms to international law.

Doing things in hurry:

it shoudl stay: how do yuo "explain" the density of Kosova that is double higher than in southern Serbia.

and

therefore we have 2 M in Kosova living in a twice "smaller" territory that 1M in south Serbia Nis including??? Just whatch the map...

All the usual suspects I see. As I have said many times before, a sustainable solution is one where both sides gain and lose something. Tadic is absolutely right. I think the many posters here live in a different dimension. I also think the KAlbanians should be interrogating their own political class, and stop using Serbs as an excuse to continue their intransigience.

Once the Albanians realise that they are their worst enemies and stop blaming Serbians, FYROMians or any other neighbour for their problems, then and only then can negotiations start.

Otherwise there is no point negotiating and it seems the West is beginning to wake up to this reality. Time will tell!

I have to say I really like Tadic. I know some of my colleagues on Team Kosovo think otherwise, but I really have to applaud his appoach in finding a solution to Kosovo while speaking a language the EUrocrats can both understand and appreciate. However, there are a few caveats that need to be present in order for such solutions to manifest.

1. Sooner or later, he continued, "we must sit down and talk with the legitimate Kosovo Albanian representatives".

That's absolutely true, but what are the chances someone like Thaci or Sejdiu is going to bargain? Furthermore, what are the chances any K-Albanian is going to budge so long as they know their American life line is pumping money, weapons, and legitimacy into their parastate? People negotiate when they run out of options on their own. Albanians will only return to the table once America withdraws unconditional support for them and at least a generation from now has passed. As much as I regard Veton Surroi as the closest thing the K-Albanians have to a politician, I doubt even he would be willing to compromise at this point. If BG concentrates on the Serb sectors, they can achieve most of their goals. If they start looking at Albanian, they better be ready to make significant compromises, or be ready to cut the cord.

2. "If we did recognize Kosovo and Metohija's independence, why did the world negotiate with Serbia over the six points, why was Serbia, which according to the opposition has recognized Kosovo's independence, a crucial factor in these negotiations?"

Again, very true, but in reality the lines of administgrative division were drawn along the ethnic fault lines that at this point, one can see from space. No serious politician (including Dan Fried apparently) thinks Kosovo is a functioning multiethnic state. The 6-point compromise was icing on an already made cake. The question now remains whether Belgrade will sign away heavily-populated Albanian areas. Are they willing to write off Prizren? Djakovica? Urosevac? And will BG agree to Serb sectors turning into veritable RS's within a separate Kosovo Protectorate? Are they willing to agree to have direct access to these areas but have these areas part of a separate EU Protectorate?

3. "Tadić explained that the first phase of this active policy was to seek the ICJ's opinion on the legality of Kosovo Albanians' unilaterally declared independence, while the second was to, through the six-point plan, create conditions for EULEX to deploy in Kosovo in line with the standards and principles contained in Resolution 1244, and the mission's status neutrality that overrides the Ahtisaari plan."

I'm beginning to see a pattern in which the EU is actually trying to pry direct control of Kosovo away from both Serbs and Albanians. An international protectorate could very well solve the impasse, but let's say that the ICJ ruling comes back (and let's be honest here, they're not going to give a definitive answer one way or the other), and says that Kosovo's sovereignty was not in line with international law, but is already visible present on the ground. Let's say the ICJ recommends the EU literally take Kosovo over as an internationally legitimate protectorate. This could very well encourage a number of other states to "recognize" Kosovo as such, thus taking away any idea that Kosovo is part of Serbia's territory that is administered from Belgrade.

There are a number of scenarios that can come into play here, and Tadic and Jeremic have found common voice with the EU and other international powers. They may very well get what they want, but at the price of deeper EULEX integration. I wonder if they would be satisfied if Kosovo were to be transformed into an international protectorate.

>>>>>1)There are only 5,7 million Albanians versus 9 million Serbs in the Balkans.

Nope. They are 4.2 Million registered in Albania (in civil records) 2 million in Kosova and .6 million in FYROM. Each year in Kosova alone 30,000 children are being born, a very healthy number (3.2 kids per woman). After a generation I said we will have 8-9 million. Some are immigrants but many will eventually return, especially EU ones. Maybe we'll have immigrants too one day and that ads to it as well (only 80% of Serbia is really Serb) Albania has over $12 Billion in oil & gas http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14861/ , 300 miles of pristine coastline, Kosova has plenty of minerals so together we will manage as time goes by. Now it's hard but we know.

>>>2)Romania and particularly Spain as one of the largest powers in the EU will veto any "Kosovo" acession to NATO and EU.Russia and China will veto UN membership.

China will not (UK helped them on Tibet by changing ONE word on the agreement,) Russia maybe, but USA and Russia have so many things going on that they will find an agreement. US gives them something and Russia gives Kosova.

Romania will not, Spain is powerful but they will not be the only ones left, in years their government will change. This of course is IF Serbia doesn't want to get in EU, if you do you will recognize and everyone else has no objections.

No one said not to talk, two neighboring states have a lot of things to talk about. Unless Serbia recognizes, Serbia will not go anywhere either.

Mike, they asked Thaci a lot of the 6-points, notice how the language was diluted to the point of being meaningless. Officially he opposed it, privately US, UK, France, Germany and Italy said they mean nothing, like 1244 on Feb 17th 2008.EU is there because of Ahtisaari, regardless of what they say in public. They cannot and will not rule unless Albanian agree.

Daniel Fried: "The EULEX deployment throughout Kosovo will be a good thing for Kosovo’s sovereignty, territorial integrity, and independence. EULEX will deploy with its original mandate, and will cooperate with the government of Kosovo throughout Kosovo. This was a good day…it was a good day because the Government of the Republic of Kosovo insisted on some conditions for the EULEX deployment, and the UN respected these conditions in its report,"

You will see if Serbia matters now that EULEX is in. The fact that Tadic wants 'to talk with Albanian leadership' shows that he is preparing Serbia for the obvious. The German Amb (yes, German) said to Blic that EULEX means no division of Kosovo. Compromise sounds great, but in reality it means do what Serbia wants or else. The time for compromise of sovereignty was over on Feb 17, 2008. Is anyone asking Serbia to compromise with Turkey? If Turkey asked you, what would you say? Little by little Serbs will understand how they behaved and that Kosova is gone. Partition brings in the table other areas in Serbia, anything short of independence is not acceptable so it's all done.

Hillary Clinton will be the Sec of State and she says KosovAAh. FYI: Mother Teresa mention Kosova to her and Bill right before she died as well.

Logic tell me why you are using emotive words like rape? Show me where is the rape in Kosovo?

Why not describe the situation as it is, in reality rather than try to stir your own (and others) emotions?

Why would a Kosovo Albanian (not 'Kosovar', I'll take that as an admission on your part that Kosovo Serbs are not considered Kosovars) accept anything less than independence?

Perhaps because it would be fair? Or are you so drunk on the heady brew of nationalism and previous success that fairness is irrelevant?

And your idea that moderation is evidence of somebody cracking is laughable.

There's a lot of mistrust towards Serbia and its politicians bganon, a lot. There was a deal and it was broken once in 1989, when Kosovo autonomy was unilaterally revoked. Serbia needs to do a lot more to be trusted again by the people of Kosovo, so the politicians in Kosovo can have more space for compromise with Serbia. Not on status anyway. Six months of DS in power is obviously not enough. What if DS looses the next elections and the opposition comes to power again in Serbia? You know how much they like to declare things null..

@Albanez

1)There are only 5,7 million Albanians versus 9 million Serbs in the Balkans.

2)Romania and particularly Spain as one of the largest powers in the EU will veto any "Kosovo" acession to NATO and EU.Russia and China will veto UN membership.

3)If you dare to stir up trouble in neighbouring countries you might very well loose support from the West.Remember 2001,we kicked you out of the Presevo valley after you attempted to steal it and the result:
openening of the ground zone for the Serbian army and souring relations between you and the West.

So the clue is:

If you want to progress you will have to sit down with us and negotiate otherwise you will stay a no go area for foreign investors and young Albanians will try to get out of this hole to make it to Western Europe..

Florin -- i really like your contributions, content AND form. keep on coming...

as for my own postings here, i have reread a # of them. and though i totally agree with the content :) i think i have to admit that my style is a bit didactic... pounding, pounding pounding... i could say that i am just responding to the extremism of the other side, but that would not be 100% accurate, since i've known myself a good long time. in fact, sometimes it seems like a bit of "moral S and M" as one well known radio personality famously described our Dr. Laura (a rather wacky, off the wall radio shrink/moralist.)

so, i think i will resolve to at least try to refrain from making negative comments towards other posters, unless i am PERsonally provoked. after all, they are entitled to their ideas.

but i will still feel free to make comments about politicians, govt's, media, hate-speech, etc.

anyway, just some musings, for what they are worth. who knows -- maybe others might take my lead and bring things down just one or two decibels.

peace.

robert-0
frisco

Albanez,

I'm not surprised by your inability at understanding my posts. Nationalists rarely do. Since you've been posting here, your comments are carbon copy ramblings of Albanian propaganda. Like others, I barely read through them anymore as its little more than shouting and chest pumping. People like you are a dime a dozen on this site, and being called out by an Albanian groupthinker does nothing for me.

Maybe it's you who should read my comments more carefully and begin to read something outside Albanian news sites. The European Union has been given legitimate authority to govern Kosovo as a neutral region. That means they will make further compromises with Belgrade and Pristina. Somehow you think that Albanians are in total control of the region. Then please explain why Thaci was basically ignored in the 6-point plan. Please explain why Thaci et al have no authority in Serb sectors. And please explain to me how, other than use of force, demographic shift, or procreation, are you going to get them? Take a look at Bosnia. If you're lucky, that's how Kosovo's going to look. and if Kosovo passports mean anything, I suspect many Albanians will be using them to buy one-way tickets out of the region.

Albanian nationalism is pretty easy to identify: "we're the most independent minded people in the world, but we need the help of other powers to do our work for us." I like your earlier statement about Hillary Clinton coming in to save the day for you - typical nationalism. With Kosovo being controlled by the EU, the UN, NATO, KFOR, the Boy Scouts, and the League of Women Voters, explain to me how you are able to make any descions on your own as a sovereign state?

Compromise, is the key. Belgrade is realizing it. If you can't find the purpose for my comments, nor my logic, you're taking yourself way too seriously. No sense in shooting for the moon when you can't even back out of the driveway.

dear bganon -- i am really growing tired of your condescending and lecturing tone towards the people of albanian ethnicity. you and your "moderate" approach! your fearless leaders preach the worst nationalistic excesses, full of "kosovo and metojiha, bla bla", the worst intolerance, the most consistent (attempted) bullying of ethnic albanians and anyone around the WORLD who chooses to see them as real people with democratic rights... and then you accuse THEM of acting like children! after all of the horrors your beloved country has bestowed upon them, in the name of the serbian people...


Dear 'roberto' from 'frisco'. We are getting tired of your condescending and lecturing tone towards the people of Serbian and non Albanian ethnicity.

You talk about nationalistic excesses of 'our leaders'. Well its the nationalistic excess of the Albanian leadership which has cleansed Kosmet of 250,000 of its Serbs, Roma, Gorani and Jewish populations.

You speak of intolerance and bullying, well what the hell do you call what has/is happening to the remaining Serbs, Roma and Gorani peoples in the province who live behind barbed war, have no freedom of movement are assaulted in the street when they speak Serbo-Croat, have the resting place of their loved ones destroyed, have their churches and places of worship desecrated and destroyed, have their schools torn down because 'they dont comply with planning regulations' are stoned when they visit church on Sundays, their hospitals are frequently denied proper medical supplies because 'they dont have the proper paperwork' have their loved ones abducted and murdered for their organs.

If thats not intimidation, intolerance and bullying, frankly sir, I dont know what is.

Your comments sir hide a disgusting hidden racist undertone towards the Serbian people.

Thanks for that outpouring roberto, I'll appreciate it if you don't bother addressing me any longer. I have no need to justify myself to you, but I will say this, if you don't believe in negotiation (the real issue) don't condemn those that advocate negotiations or a compromise solution.

Florin it sounds like you had a flaming war in one of those awful chatrooms staffed by nationalists of various persuasions

I don't do denial of crimes, nor do I drape myself in victim mentality. I always try to take a fair approach.
My advice to you is to stop trying to search for the enemy, why not try the moderate approach?

The first question is what are you - Kosovars or Albanians?

Once you figure out what you are, then you can discuss Tadic's comments.

Mike I don't know if you've skipped my posts like you say you do with most Albanian posts, but I have been telling you and other Serbs here that Kosova was going to be under EU patronage even before February, 17. I used to ask you and the Serbs here to show me what is the point for us Albanians to accept to be autonomous under Serbia ( an impoverished state) when we could declare independence from Serbia and be autonomous under the EU ( plus US, if you think about it).
Whether you are Serbian or Albanian you have to be blind to not see the following:

1) When it comes to Kosova, Serbia has lost it forever. That is not the same as; there will be no Serbs in Kosova.

2) Kosova will be under EU+US patronage or even protectorate for a very long, long time ( maybe even 50 to 100 years) before it is allowed to have full, unconditional independence. By that time many things will be different and look different.

3) Serb areas in Kosova are going to be governed in a more direct way by the EU and are going to be tied to Prishtina very loosely ( I personally think only in name, they will be a sort of EU protectorate within the EU protectorate of Kosova).


Mike said: "Compromise, is the key. Belgrade is realizing it. If you can't find the purpose for my comments, nor my logic, you're taking yourself way too seriously. No sense in shooting for the moon when you can't even back out of the driveway.
(Mike, 30 November 2008 20:36)

I don't think Belgrade has realized anything. If someone was really talking about compromise and wants compromise, Serbia's integrity over Kosova is out of the window. The moment a Serbian politician talks about compromise and then talks about Serbian integrity over Kosova then there is no room whatsoever about compromise there. The labeling and relabeling of autonomy ( such as more than something but less then something) does not constitute a compromise. It is a non-starter for us Albanians. I am telling you this has nothing to do with Albanian nationalism or whatever you Serbs out there say to make yourself feel better. It has a lot to do about how we fell for previous compromises and paid for that with the blood of our fathers, sisters, mothers, and brothers. You guys call Haradinaj and Ceku terrorists. Personally I could care less what you call them. What you fail to realize is that in their story is the story of us Albanians. Like Ceku's father and Haradinaj's brother every Albanian in Kosova has a father,sister,mother,brother, or cousin who was beheaded by the Serbian forces, who was burned alive or shot in cold blood by the Serbian forces. In majority of cases these were civilians. I have personally seen 70 years old Albanian women who killed with shotguns, where you could see through their stomachs because of the huge hole the shotgun caused. Now when I and other Albanians have witnessed that we came to the realization and vowed to never let that happen again; that means never again will we let Kosova be under the sovereignty of Serbia. We fell for it once, we are not falling for it again, no matter how it is packaged. When I mean we are not gonna let that happen; every Albanian out there will tell that it includes all means to prevent that from happening, political, diplomatic and others.
Now when a Serbian politician talks about compromise he should start with the last sentence. Only a fool, and I believe there are plenty in Serbian politics, thinks that either Serbia or Kosova will be peaceful under Serbian sovereignty.

dear johny

I know your post is directed at Mike, but some of the comments you made got me got me thinking... wow this is an interesting perspective...

"I used to ask you and the Serbs here to show me what is the point for us Albanians to accept to be autonomous under Serbia ( an impoverished state) when we could declare independence from Serbia and be autonomous under the EU ( plus US, if you think about it)."

First of all Serbia is not nearly as impoverished as you like to think, given the fact that it was bombed by NATO for 78 days, faced years of sanctions, hyperinflation and political isolation, I'd say it is recovering well or as well as its opportunities allowed it to.

Second, you want to trade one form of autonomy (under Serbia) for another (under EU/US)... because of money? And I thought all you guys wanted was independence. Let me tell you something about EULEX (autonomy under EU) my friend, it is a Rule of Law Mission. That means European police, judiciary etc are going to come to Kosovo and tell you guys how to run things the "European" way (e.g. among other things, they will teach KPS that instead of taking bribes when issuing speeding tickets they should actually print the ticket and charge the driver the fine, basic things like that, kind of like going back to kindergarten). This is what US/EU are financing because they need you guys to play ball and play nice while Camp Bondsteel continues to operate smoothly and protects them nearby pipelines :)

Anyways, lets move along..

"When it comes to Kosova, Serbia has lost it forever. That is not the same as; there will be no Serbs in Kosova."

Absolutely no to the first sentence, and yes to the second one. Why would Serbs go south of Ibar when they know they will be in danger. The same applies to Krajna Serbs. Why can't they go back to their homes? Because the lovely Ustasha adoring croats that await them there?

"Kosova will be under EU+US patronage or even protectorate for a very long, long time ( maybe even 50 to 100 years) before it is allowed to have full, unconditional independence. By that time many things will be different and look different."

Whoa there horsey, 50-100 years??? Geopolitical interests change much much faster than that. You will only be supported for as long as there is money to be made for the EU/US. They don't look at you guys as orphan kids who need a home and so provide you with one out of their kind hearts. That's not capitalism, and the West is built on capitalism, so they will support you until they no longer have an interest in you. They do the same to everyone, that is why the so called worlds biggest democracies (Germany, US, UK etc) are really the worlds biggest Hypocrisies.

Ok and then the rest of your comment talks about how compromises cannot be made with Belgrade (nothing really worth quoting from this area). Compromise is the equilibrium of this situation. Serbia is already there and willing to compromise but you guys aren't, but you will have to once you see US/EU support fading or will you take up arms instead and try and rejoin with Albania? I really hope that if your lifeline (US/EU) is cut off you will not pick the latter option as not only will it ruin your EU integration process but a lot of needless bloodshed will take place.