Nikitas,
It seems that your supporter Pavlos is silenced after posed with the previous question. I do encourage him to answer it however.
Athough you both fail to use my name, it does not mean I do not exist or am silent.
I would also recommend that you too read some of your quotes.
Although I am sure you will try to discredit what am writing, I ask that you realize I am refering you to your own quotes.
In one, the question is asked "Who are the Macedonians?" Allow me to clarify your own quote. It refers to greek, serb, and bulgarian Macedonia. In case you wonder why there are three, I will gladly clarify for you. The country of Macedonia was under the cloak of the Ottoman Empire until the fall of that Empire in the early 1900's.(a nearly 600 year period which even the Ottomans acknowledge) That would be present day Turkey of which I know you both are huge fans.
That country of Macedonia (which had nothing to do with greece since greece is a whole other land) was partitioned into 3 parts Serb, Bulgarian, and of course greek. The greeks optained the largest portion which happens to be the land they(greeks) claim was theirs since ancient history. I do not claim to know greek math, however, it is unclear to me how the greeks can claim a period of less than 100 years can be ancient history. It must be that wealth of knowledge of math as well as history. I do not mean this as an insult, I merely bring out the flaws in your claims.
The other questions I have refers to your quote about the Ottomans in 1912-1913.
Which Macedonia does it refer to? Is it the Serb portion, the Bulgarian portion , or is it the greek portion? You obviously know by now that there are three.
You also fail to bring out that the Macedonian people were deceived in thinking that they were fighting the Ottomans for the re-unification of their land(THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA).
You too should read the quotes you bring and view them as other people might. That is the only way you will find the truth. You should also bring the complete qoute and not just the portion that supports your stance.
I would also like to add that present day REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA has NEVER claimed to seek a re-unification with neither the Bulgarian portion or the greek portion. Those claims are made ONLY by greeks who very well know that what I have just stated concerning the partition in the early 1900's is nothing short of the TRUTH AND THE WHOLE TRUTH. They (greeks) are merely displaying FEAR that there may a time in the future a re-unification may by sought. They are trying to elimnate that unlikely chance however small it may be.
If, however, that portion of land was always greek land inhabited by greek populous as they claim. Then what do the greeks have to fear? AGAIN I ASK "WHAT DO THE GREEKS HAVE TO FEAR"?
Is it possible that what the greeks claim is NOT TRUE?
In case your are unaware of it, that was the reason that the present day REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA changed their constitution and flag. To try to satisfy and eliminate the greek fear. As we have seen, that is not enough for them. If true history is as they claim(the greeks),then they have nothing to fear.
You both can try to discredit all that I write but remember that "YOU CAN NEVER SILENCE TRUTH".
I encourage you both to put your fears aside and learn more than just one sided history.
Nikitas,
I would like to correct you again. I am very believable. I bring out the side which you fail to acknowledge as possible truth. You, on the other hand, try to discredit everything that doesn't agree with your version. You even try to discredit other nations because they don't agree with your knowledge of history(although limited to one side). You must realize that you can't discredit the world because they don't agree with you. You only bring opinions that defend the greek side. You are either unable or unwilling to find statements which counter the greek side. You must realize that you have to look at all the information available and then you are able to find the truth. You cannot deny ones existence based on a one sided opinion. Everything you have presented has one side to it, greek. All the writers you refer to don't have to have greek names to have a greek sided opinion. And yes, I have read all of your comments. Just because I haven't responded in an hour or less does not mean I have been silenced as your freind says. I have repeatedly asked you both to take your blinders off but you have both failed to do so. In some ways, I feel sorry for you both because you both have failed to learn more about a subject which you are so passionate about.
"Happy learnig", but only if you want to learn the real truth of course.
@26
You really are something unbelievable.
I am sure you didnt bother to read any of what I posted. Otherwise you could see that none of it is from Greek books, Greek related sources or Greek writers.
Everything is from foreigners that made research on the issue.
Unfortunately, the word "history" and "research" applies only to what you like and you are fed with.
Pavlos,
I would kindly like to refer you to comments #7 and #8. Please read them again and decide for yourself who it is that steals something and twists it to make it look like their own. Are you both going to deny that happened too? If so, that must be the same way you deny everything said that doesn't have a greek twist to it, EVEN THOUGH YOU SEE IT WITH YOUR OWN EYES. What's next, your denial of all the other nations that recognize and acknowledge views that don't agree with greece? They probably don't exist either do they? Take your blinders off.
I am happy to tell both nikitas and pavlos that ALEKSANDAR is not silenced and never will be by your misleading statements. As I said in my previous statement, you will try to invalidate anything that does not have a greek twist to or that does not support the greek version. Also because the United States is not on your side, you want to discredit any country that is supported or recognized by her. Once again, it is not only one country that has the same view as the U.S. To you both, all the nations in the world that share the same view of history as in the case of MAKEDONIA, they don't know what they are talking about. You both should realize that you are not the only ones that have a knowledge of history(especially greek twisted propaganda). I said in my previous statement that you would try to claim the example I gave is not valid, true or false in some way. You have proven that. YOU BOTH HAVE TO REALIZE THAT EVERYONE DOESN'T BELIEVE YOUR GREEK PROPAGANDA. Whether I give you one example or a thousand, you will try to do the same. In any case I will suggest to both of you to look up anything on the Roman Empire and see if you learn something new. It is clear though, that you will not accept anything but your narrow minded greek teachings. In some way I can understand why you will not accept new and true information.
NEVER silenced, especially by FALSE PROPAGANDA.
"Happy learning".
Aleksandar is now silenced!... Of course.. it is too easy to say to others "open a history book" when you know that there is not one history book that can support your views.
Don't expect comments on your quotes. Aleksandar and his compatriots base their whole idenity in twisting history and claiming someone else's history and culture as their own.
Thanks for the time you spend, to answer to all these propagandists. We are not that many doing so...
Second time post, just in case the first time gets "forgotten".....
It seems strange to me how B92 hasnt posted my answers in both this and another (today's) article. I wouldnt want it to seem that I didnt answer both of those.
Anyway.
@23
Let me give you some clues.
Harper Collins edition of world atlas is a book published in the usa (if i am not mistaken) which is a country that has recognised you under the illegal name you use. So I find it very normal for them to use the term "macedonia" instead of fyrom. Actually the world atlas isnt a historic book. Its an....... ATLAS!!!!!
Which means.... that you really have nothing in your hands.
Have you really read what I wrote?
Is an atlas, a source of anything concerning history? I will give you some quotes and titles.
Quote:
Most of the Slavophone inhabitants in all parts of divided Macedonia perhaps a million and a half in all - felt themselves to be Bulgarians at the beginning of the Occupation; and most Bulgarians, whether they supported the Communists, IMRO, or the collaborating government, assumed that all Macedonia would fall to Bulgaria after the war. Tito was I determined that this should not happen.
[C.M. Woodhouse,The Struggle for Greece 1941-1949,page 67]
Quote:
Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom
[Eugene Borza,The Macedonian Rendux]
Quote:
On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians.
[Eugene Borza,The Macedonian Rendux]
Quote:
The history of the construction of a macedonian national identity does not begin with alexander the great in the fourth century b.c. or with saints cyril and methodius in the ninth century a.d., as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim. nor does it begin with tito and the establishment of the people's republic of macedonia in 1944 as greek nationalist historians would have us believe.
It begins in the nineteenth century with the first expressions of macedonian ethnic nationalism on the part of a small number of intellectuals in places like thessaloniki, belgrade, sophia, and st.petersburg. this period marks the beginning of the process of "imagining" a macedonian national community, the beginning of the construction of a macedonian national identity and culture.
[Loring Danforth,The Macedonian Conflict. Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World,page 56]
Quote:
Basil II of Constantinople in 1014 decided to end once and for all a war that had already lasted forty years. To break the spirit of the hated Bulgarians, he blinded all but 150 of 15,000 prisoners. The “lucky” 150 were blinded in one eye only. Every 100 blind men were guided by a one-eyed leader back to the Bulgarian capital of Ohdrid, whose ruler, Samuel , had received word that his army was returning to him. Samuel hastened to meet his men and found himself staring at thousand of helpless blind men. The sight was fatal. Samuel suffered a stroke on the spot and died two days later. (Basil II received the surname Bulgaroktonos, meaning “slayer of Bulgarians”, )
Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts By Isaac Asimov, page 225
Quote:
They population of Uskioub, consisting of Arnouts, Jews, Armenians, Zinzars, Greeks, Bulgarians and Servians, amounts to upwards of twelve thousand
"Travels in European Turkey, in 1850: Through Bosnia, Servia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Thrace,..." By Edmund Spencer, page 28, Published 1851
Quote:
As the day was drawing to a close, we descended into the vast plain of Bittoglia, where we had to ford several unimportant streams rushing onward to the sluggish waters of the karasu,..With the exception of a few Greeks and Zinzars, the congregation consisted of Bulgarians, EASILY DISTINGUISHED by their short, thick-set figures, honest open countenances, and the unvarying costume, we before described
"Travels in European Turkey, in 1850: Through Bosnia, Servia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Thrace,..." By Edmund Spencer, page 46, Published 1851
Quote:
Those of the vilayets of Adrianople and Macedonia , where, at the recent census, two-thirds of the inhabitants were found to be Bulgarians
"The Balkan Peninsula" by E. Laveleye, 1887, Page 251
Quote:
The unfortunate Armenians are at the present time most piteously oppressed and pillaged by the Kurds, the Circassians, and more especially by Turkish functionaries. 'Their condition is very similar to that of the Bulgarians in Macedonia
"The Balkan Peninsula" by E. Laveleye, 1887, Page 305
Quote:
But having lived now with the Montenegrins, the Serbs, and the Bulgarian 'Macedonians,' I clung to the idea that somehow or other I must get right into Albanian territories
"The Burden of the Balkans" By M. Edith Durham 1863-1944, page 207
Quote:
In Monastir also, the majority of the inhabitants is Bulgarian, and Bulgarian is the language in the market
"We, the Macedonians", by Constantine Stephanove
Quote:
and Uskub, the great majority of the population is Slavic, ... the middle ages until 1913 called themselves and were called by their neighbors Bulgarians
"The Journal of International Relations" By george h. blakeslee
Translation: If Bulgaria, after many hesitations and not without regret, did the great sacrifice and give up Uskub, whose population is Bulgarian
Quote:
The writer who has frequently visited Monastir, can add his to mony to these pronouncements. The population of Monastir is Turkish, Bulgarian and Vlach
"The Quarterly Review" Published 1872, J. Murray
Quote:
Istambul, August 15, 1903:
SIR,
The political situation in Macedonia continues to grow worse each week.[...]
The real foundation for all the trouble is the desire of the BULGARIAN
population for freedom from Turkish rule, and were the powers to say to Bulgaria what they have already said to Turkey, "that under no conditions
would she be permitted to take one foot on additional soil", the trouble
would be speedily ended , but this they will not do, and consequently the
twentieth century crusade against the Turks is likely to go on, as no power,
not excepting Germany, is to brave public opinion openly taking sides with
the Turks against the Christians".
Quote:
September 19, 1903:
"The Bulgarian government is in most delicate position.... and unless the
powers should intervene Bulgaria will be forced openly to embrace the
Macedonian cause. ... I am quite of the opinion that the people in Bulgaria
will revolt against the government unless something be done..." writes the
American ambassador at the Porte, Leishman
John G. Leishman, US Ambassador to the Sublime Porte (serving 1900 - 1908)
to John Hay, American Secretary of State.Source: U.S. Deaprtment of State.
Diplomatic Despatches. Despatches from U.S. Ministers to Turkey, 1818 -
1906. National Archives Publications, M46, Roll 72, July 5 - October 29,
1903.
Quote:
The name ANTES suggest this people was intermixed with Iranians, and linguists point to a large number of Iranian loanwords in Slavic that were acquired very early. This would not be surpsising if the Slavs came from Ukraine because they would have had contact with both Iranian Scythians and Sarmatians. Indeed the Sarmatians were still to be found in Backa and the Banat near the Danybe at the time Slavs arrived there.
"The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century" By John Van Antwerp Fine, page 26
Quote:
Most of the Balkans were settled by Slavs of one of the two types. (excluding the smaller groups of Slavic Slovenes and Turkic Avars in the western Balkans). Each one of these two main Slavic groups was to be named for a second conquering group who appeared later in te Seventh century.
The first of these two groups was the Bulgaro-Macedonians, whose Slavic component the Bulgarian historian Zlatarski derives from the Antes. They were conquered in the late seventh century by the Turkic Bulgars. The slavs eventually assimilated them, but the Bulgars' name survived.
"The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century" By John Van Antwerp Fine, page 36
Quote:
Until the late nineteenth century both outside observers and those Bulgaro-Macedonians who had an ethnic consiousness believed that their group, which is NOW two seperate nationalities, comprised a SINGLE people, THE BULGARIANS. Thus the reader should IGNORE references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle Ages which appear in some modern works. In the Middle Ages and into the nineteenth century, the term 'Macedonian' was used ENTIRELY in reference to a geographical region. Anyone who lived within its confines, regardless of nationality could be called a Macedonian.
"The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century" By John Van Antwerp Fine, Page 37
Quote:
It is the national identity of these Slav Macedonians that has been the most violently contested aspect of the whole Macedonian dispute, and is still being contested today. There is NO DOUBT that they are southern Slavs; they have a language, or a group of varying dialects, that is grammatically akin to Bulgarian but phonetically in some respects akin to Serbian, and which has certain quite distinctive features of its own.
[Elisabeth Barker, "Macedonia, its place in Balkan power politics",
(originally published in 1950 by the Royal Institute of International Affairs), p.10]
Quote:
In regard to their own national feelings, all that can SAFELY be said is that during the last eighty years many MORE Slav Macedonians seem to have considered themselves Bulgarian, or closely linked to Bulgaria, than have considered themselves Serbian, or closely linked to Serbia (or Yugoslavia). Only the people of the Skoplje region, in the north west, have ever shown much tendency to regard themselves as Serbs. The feeling of being Macedonians, and nothiNg but Macedonians, seems to be a sentiment of fairly recent growth, and even today is not very deep-rooted.
[Elisabeth Barker, "Macedonia, its place in Balkan power politics",
(originally published in 1950 by the Royal Institute of International Affairs), p.10]
Quote:
May the heroic Serb people at last find the necessary moral force--and they have it, it dwells within them--to recognize spontaneously what has long and unanimously been recognized by history, science, and the national sentiment of the Macedonian population itself, which sees in the Bulgarians ITS BROTHERS in language and blood, and which has fought hand in hand with them for religion, life, and liberty.
[N.S. Derzhavin, "Bulgaro-Serb Relations and the Macedonian Question", (1918)]
Quote:
You seem to be afraid of Kimon Georgiev, you have involved yourselves too much with him and do not want to give autonomy to Pirin Macedonia. That a Macedonian consciousness HAS NOT YET DEVELOPED AMONG THE POPULATION IS OF NO ACCOUNT. No such consciousness existed in Byelorussia either when we proclaimed it a Soviet Republic. However, later it was shown that a Byelorussian people did in fact exist.
[Stalin to Bulgarian Delegation (G. Dimitrov, V. Korarov, T. Kostov) on 7 June 1946]
Quote:
It should be remembered, to begin with, that there is NO Macedonian race, as a distinct type. Macedonians may belong to any of the races of Eastern Europe or Western Asia, as, indeed, they do. A Macedonian Bulgar is just the same as a Bulgar of Bulgaria proper, the old principality, that in October, 1908, at Tirnova, was proclaimed independent of Turkey. He looks the same, talks the same, and very largely, thinks the same way. IN SHORT HE IS OF THE SAME STOCK. There is no difference, whatsoever, between the two branches of the race, except that the Macedonian Bulgars, as a result of their position under the Turkish government, have less culture and education than their northern brethren.
[Arthur Douglas Howden Smith, "Fighting the Turk in the Balkans: An American's Adventures with the Macedonian Revolutionists", 1908, p. 4-5]
Quote:
In general, however, the Macedonian Slavs differ somewhat both in appearance and character from their neighbours beyond the Bulgarian and Servian frontiers: the peculiar type which they present is probably due to a considerable admixture of Vlach, Hellenic, Albanian and Turkish blood, and to the influence of the surrounding races. Almost all independent authorities,however, agree that the bulk of the Slavonic population of Macedonia IS BULGARIAN. The principal indication is furnished by the language, which, though resembling Servian in some respects (e.g. the case-endings, which are occasionally retained), presents most of the characteristic features of Bulgarian.
[The 1911 Edition Encyclopedia](found this online but cant remember the link, sorry)
Quote:
Modern turkish histories present the idea that the macedonian question was the essential ingredient in understanding the volatile mix of problems that ultimately led to Balkan wars. Because the population of Macedonia was primarily Bulgarian, it was influenced heavily by the events of 1878. It is very likely that the establishment of the greater Bulgaria envisioned by the treaty of San Stefano, and which included much of Macedonia whetted the nationalistic appetites of a substantial portion of the Bulgarian population of Macedonia.
"Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912-1913" By Edward J. Erickson, page 39
Quote:
In Sofia, Bulgarians organized the Adrianople Region- MAcedonia Committee in 1890, and in Salonika, the internal Macedonian Revolutionary committee and Organization was formed in 1893.
"Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912-1913" By Edward J. Erickson, page 42
IT IS THEREFORE NO LONGER NECESSARY TO DEMONSTRATE THE MYTHICAL CHARACTER OF THE "MACEDONIAN" nationality in the eyes of every element in the Macedonian population.
Allen Upward, "The East End of Europe", London 1908, pp 25-27
Quote:
And so the "Bulgarophone" villagers are no longer willing to admit they speak Bulgarian. They have coined a NEW term of their own accord, and henceforth, until they have got rid of it, is to be known as "Macedonian". My Athenian friends were delighted when I told them of this on my return. It should give even greater pleasure to those Bulgarian agents who are SO ANXIOUS TO SEE THE MACEDONIANS TAUGHT THEY ARE MACEDONIANS
Allen Upward, "The East End of Europe", London 1908, pp 205
Quote:
The origin of the Macedonian dispute the south-east half of Slav Macedonia where the population was most nearly Bulgarian
"The New Macedonian Question" (St. Antony's) by James Pettifer, page 12
Quote:
Where an overaching identity existed among Slavs in Macedonia, it was a Bulgarian one UNTIL at least the 1860s. The cultural impetus for a seperated Macedonian identity would only emerge LATER
"Outcast Europe" BY Tom Gallagher, page 47
Quote:
..descendant of Samuil, collected an army and took the chief Bulgarian town, Skopje, and soon came to dominate Thrace, Epirus and Macedonia
"A Concise History of Bulgaria (Cambridge Concise Histories)" by R. J. Crampton, page 23
Quote:
Among the Bulgarians of Prilep, after the ceremony in church is over, one of the brothers entertains his relatives..
"Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics", Part 4 by James Hastings, page 79
Quote:
Monastir is an undistinguished, motley sort of town of some 60,000 nhabitants, 14,000 of them Greek, 10,000 of them Bulgarian, four or five thousand Albanian, two or three thousand Jew, and the rest Turk.
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), chapter 20.
Quote:
But who are the Macedonians? You will find Bulgarians and Turks who call themselves Macedonians, you find Greek Macedonians, there are Servian Macedonians, and it is possible to find Roumanian Macedonians. You will NOT, however, find a single Christian Macedonian who is not a Servian, a Bulgarian, a Greek, or a Roumanian. They all curse the Turk, and they love Macedonia. But it is Greek Macedonia, or Bulgarian Macedonia, and their eyes flame with passion, whilst their fingers seek the triggers of their guns
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), PAGE 5
Quote:
They visited the Bulgarian villages, levied contributions, and stored arms, so that on an appointed day there might be a rising against the Turk, and Bulgarian Macedonians be liberated from their oppressors for ever. Naturally they were greeted as heroes;
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), PAGE 8
Quote:
i have some hope that in years to come the inhabitants will think less of their Turkish, Bulgarian or Greek Origin and a great deal more with the fact that they are all Macedonians.
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), PAGE 17
Quote:
I hope you are not making any racial distinctions between Bulgars and Macedonians. I believe the Bulgars who have come from Macedonia are registered on Ellis Island as Macedonians, which is bound to be confusing and inaccurate, for Macedonians may include Greeks, Vlachs, and even Turks. The distinction between the Bulgars from Bulgaria and those from Macedonia is PURELY political. Many of those who are registered as Greeks are so in church affiliation only, being Slavic by race and tongue.
"Our Slavic Fellow Citizens" By Emily Greene Balch pp 274-275
Quote:
It is very interesting to compare together the different inhabitants of European Turkey, such as the Servians, the Bulgarians, the Wallachians, the Greeks, and the Albanians. The Servians and Bulgarians may be said to be nearly the same people, and appear to be more numerous than the Greeks;
"The Edinburgh New Philosophical Journal: exhibiting a view of the Progressive discoveries.." Published 1838
by A. and C. Black - Original from the New York Public Library - p.240
Quote:
The language of these various populations divides itself into two principal idioms: each of these into three where the difference is less. Of the Southern dialect are the Slovaks, the Serbs and Bulgarians; of the Northern, the Bohemians, Poles, and Russians.
"Vacation Tourists and Notes of Travel in 1860" By Francis Galton Published 1861 Macmillan and co. Original from the University of Michigan, page 108
Please point out one book that was written by a Greek writer.
To nikitas,
It seems that with all your knowledge of everything, you are UNABLE to find at least one book with anything other than greek lies.
Well, let me help you with at least one book.
It is the called THE ATLAS OF WORLD HISTORY which is published by Harper Collins which happens to be a division of BORDERS. In case you have trouble reading the contents, I would like to refer you both(you and pavlos) to pages 75,76 or pages 214 and 215.
You will both note that MAKEDONIA AND greece are two DIFFERENT NATIONS with their own borders and not one and the same as you claim. These are just a couple of examples that you seek.
You see, this is just one of MANY books that your very knowledgable greek educators and politicians could not get their hands on so they could TWIST THE TRUTH.
I must warn you however, this book has the TRUTH in it and it may hurt you to read it. The information in it refers to time as far back as 3000 BC. You may suffer severe trauma by not seeing the word greece on some of those maps that far back in time.
You see, this book and MANY MORE were written outside of your greek and narrow minded box.
I would be willing to bet that your response will be that this and all the other books simply do not exist or are full of lies. Well, that is your response to everything that does not have a greek twist on it. That is fine though, because you have shown clearly how greeks think and fail to acknowledge truth because they (the greeks) FEAR THE TRUTH.
Hey nikitas,
It seems that the greeks think that if they add an "o" and "s" to the end of all words they read it makes them greek. I repeat, GET INFORMATION OUTSIDE OF YOUR GREEK BOX. You fail to realize all the greek info you know may not be fact.
It is also interesting to note that all you know is how the greeks were affected during and after WWII. How many other people were affected by that conflict? With your knowledge of history you must think that it was only the greeks. That is probably what your greek historians have written and taught you.
YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND GREECE. Are you going to claim that this statement is not true. I'm sure your educators and you are going to ask for proof of that since everything without a greek twist on it must be proven to the greek.
As for me not knowing about the greeks in Albania, I would like to correct you.
I have full knowledge about ALL the people that were affected by that conflict. To you, if it doesn't have anything to do with greece, it didn't happen. Would you like for me to direct you to books to prove that to you or do you think you can manage to find all the information on your own? I wonder if your greek educators taught you how to find information outside of the greek box. Do they teach you to place and "o" and and "s" at the end of every word or name and that will make it greek. It must be these teachings that the greeks follow when they (and you) take other persons information or names and claim it to be theirs.
I ask you once again to expand your mind and realize that your greek teachers didn't know everything and weren't the only teachers in the world. In your narrow greek box of knowledge even this requires proof doesn't it?
I still laugh at the claim that greece has no minorities and does not recognize them. Take the box off of your head and see the light won't you. Did your educators not teach how to do that either? I forget , BOX does not have an "o" and "s" at the end of it and therefore, you don't realize it exists.
@20
Again you fail to understand what I have explained before:
We the Makedonians, do not claim to be something different than who we are and the whole world knows who we are.
You the Fyromians claim to be something that you arent and it is you that you have to provide proof for what you are claiming. You are trying to re-write history. I take the challenge. Any proof? History is written based on proof and is revealed by serious research, not by claiming out of thin air that you are something or someone. And so far noone in the whole world has provided any kind of solid evidence or strong argument on your (as it is obvious) imaginery fairy tale.
You say there are books and maps. You want maps? I know of hundrends of them all around the world that can counter any of those you bring me. You want books? I know of hundrends of them that existed before your Slavic tribes came to our area. The thing is, do you have any? You couldnt even write at that time, what kind of proof are you talking about? We, the Greeks taught you how to write. Or maybe Kyrillos and Methodios werent Greek either? If so, why were they learning your language for 8 years in Konstantinople before they start educating you? It isnt this a fact? Because there is proof of even that. But you know, I start to believe that the words proof, evidence, fact, research are among those that Kyrillos and Methodios forgot to put in your dictionary.
As for the Greeks in Albania. Greeks in North Epiros were asking for their rights since the end of WW2. The fact that you have heard about it only now, doesnt give you an argument in your favor.
To all that can find and only understand the greek version of history.
The only people that want proof are the ones that truly are unable to find it or ones that refuse to believe and admit it once they see it.
The proof and MANY BOOKS and maps exist all around you and you are responsible for finding and understanding or admitting wether it is true or has a political twist to it.
From the comments I see, it looks like the greeks are the only ones that refuse to admit that there may be another version to what they and only they claim.
Boys I am happy to say that you can call it whatever you like but you are the ONLY ones that label this great land by something other than THE REPUBLIC OF MAKEDONIA.
You seem to have short memories, greece was the ONLY veto. You claim knowledge of history when you can't remember something that happened a few months ago.
It is interesting too that now greeks in ALBANIA want minority rights. The greeks seem to want to take advantage of the benefits of EU rules only when it is to their advantage.
Rules are two sided and apply to all parties not just the side that benefits.
Greece as an EU member should follow the rules even if is not to her benefit.
I have one question. What right minded human believes that a country can be ethnically pure with no minorities? The greeks claim it but how many people believe it?
Again you can say whatever you like but what really matters is who believes the things you say. It is still THE REPUBLIC OF MAKEDONIA and not greece.
@17
I am only going to comment one of the points you made, because for all the rest what you said apllies to you too.
"However please do not claim that MAKEDONIA is greece until you learn more. If that was the case, we would call it greece."
Well, in case you dont know it yet, we dont claim that Makedonia is Greece. We already know that. You claim that Makedonia isnt Greece, so any kind of providing relevant argument is on your side.
Also, and because THAT is the case, we already call Makedonia Greece, so there is really no argument there for you. Once again, the burdain of argument is on your side who want to call Greece as something else, and for which none of your scholars or scientists ever provided a valid one (argument).
Before calling left and right others as ignorant or uneducated, try to be one first.
Maps in Louvre are something to be used in research. As are maps in Fyrom, Greece, Italy, Turkey, UK, Germany and many other places.
If you can figure out what the importance of research is and that research alone doesnt constitute an argument but the means to one, then we can talk again.
Until then, try and find some real hard facts and evidence that prove your stance on the issue, since you have none.
And always remember. We dont claim anything other than we already have and has been proved throughout centuries. YOU are the ones that need to proove their claims. Not us.
@14
I would really love you to recommend one, ONE, history book that would be, under your criteria, one of those that a Greek should read to learn Greek history.
On the other hand I can recommend you hundrends of books written by non Greeks that show what the real relation of Fyrom and its Slav inhabitants is and how they have nothing to do with Greeks of Makedonia.
What is important for someone like you that urging others to learn "real history", is that one thing is facts, other thing is interpretation of facts and a third thing is your own view on the interpretation of facts.
Comon link in all of the above is the facts. The hard evidence. And what is hard evidence is the written language of the Makedonians (doric Greek), the common gods of the Makedonians with the rest of the Greeks, the constant inclusion of the Makedonians among other Greeks, the common fights of the Makedonians along with the other Greeks, the continuity of the ancient Greek tradition from real Makedonians until our days, the dresses, the musical instruments, the, the the the.
I can go on and on you know. I am afraid your facts and hard evidence is much less than 3 words.
Can you present them please?
To Pavlos,
The question is not where I am from or what relation I have to Makedonia(NOT GREECE). My comments are strictly toward your peoples knowledge and recognition of TRUE history. Recent or ancient, whichever you choose, does not tell your version.
In addition, I would like to thank you for not taking my writing and twisting it to make it look like your own. You have shown me that at least one greek doesn't follow THAT common GREEK practice.
I kindly ask you to expand your mind and read books and maps of history not written or influenced by greek politics.
May I suggest Roman or French history books and maps.
If you don't know where to find any then I suggest the very popular museum in Paris.
In case you don't know it, The LOUVRE. Or you could go on the internet as you are now, and get all the TRUE information.
That is the beauty of the internet and other countries knowledge of history, niether one is influenced by greek politics.
You should learn and expand your mind before you claim knowledge of history. Your claim of relation to ancient greece is not argued. However please do not claim that MAKEDONIA is greece until you learn more. If that was the case, we would call it greece.
You can claim all you want about your knowledge of history but it seems that you have missed some information.
My friend - the relation you have with "Aleksander the Great" and Macedonia... 0%!
You are a Slav people, you have NO RELATION at all with the ancient Greek Kingdom of Macedonia, you came to the region as Slavs in the 6th century, you speak a BULGARIAN idiom, you are ETHNIC BULGARIANS, and finally you have... NO RELATION TO MACEDONIA AT ALL.
So please, don't talk about history. Your whole "identity" is based on twisting history and liying.
Hey pavlos and nikitas,
You both need to read the WORLD history books which have the truth in them. They are written by truly educated historians which are not pressured by greek politicians. Seems to me that you are reading the greek version which is written by greeks that only know the greek side. If You want to know the real and true history, then you have to come out of your narrow and greek minded box. If you have ever seen a map of the Roman Empire you would know that greece and MAKODONIA were two SEPARATE AND DIFFERENT LANDS BOTH LABELED WITH THEIR OWN TRUE AND CORRECT NAMES. They were both ruled by ROME. Do your greek historians not know how to read a simple map? You can go back as many years as you want and that is what you will find. How can greece claim that Makedonia was greece when history (true history) DOES NOT say that? May I suggest that you both take your heads out of the greek box and learn TRUE WORLD HISTORY not just the greek virsion.
To pavlos,
I would kindly ask you to write your own comments. Please do not take my content and put your twist on it by changing some words in it (annex to libiration). Is that too much to ask or is it still a GREEK practice to take other peoples things (written content or names to name a couple) and to claim that they are yours. May I remind you that it is illegal to take other peoples things and claim them to be your own especially written content. Is that practice still active in greece?
I will thank you now for not doing it again and showing the world that SOME GREEKS know how to follow rules and not BREAK THE LAW.
It is impressing Doni that every time you write a comment you get ten's of recommendations in the first minute! Your "ten's of viewers" must be there waiting for your comment and recomend it the moment it comes out!
But remember: You cannot write a good comment - only supporting it with fake recommenadtions. You also have to write good and true things in it...
@10
This is hilarious:
"Number of recommendations 25"
Its ok Doni. Keep recommending yourself. One day you might grow to reach 100 in less than 4 minutes. :)
"a spokesman for the Souda Bay U.S. naval base in Crete, said all three ships were expected to reach Georgia "within the next week." He did not give their exact destination."
so you will recognize macedonia if US says"
Is this another of your very sofisticated conclusions? The "Greece will recognise Kossovo by the end of the month" kind?
Have you even bother to read your own post? It says :U.S. naval base.
And it is wrong!!! Because it is a Nato base, not usa. I wonder sometimes, what kind of resources do you people use :)
And in any case, even if it was a usa base, please tell me exactly how is this going to force Greece to do whatever the usa wants?
Really Doni? What do I remember things very different in the NATO summit in Bucharest last March really???
I remember president Bush to announce publically (and proudly...) that "Macedonia will sign her entrance in the alliance today" and just some hours later... the Greek veto!
Everybody - even the closest US allies - were laughing at him, in the diplomatic fiasco he put his country and the Alliance in, one of the biggest diplomatic fiascos that an american goverment ever had!
Without asking Greece, he publically anounced "Macedonia's entrance" and some hours later - after the Greek "slap" on his face - he did not know what to say in front of the journalists!
If Greece does not want, Fyrom will not get in anywhere - even in the next 1000 years. Even if the US want, they will still do not get it. And Greece proved that VERY clearly in the NATO summit in Bucharest last March.
"It was the first of three U.S. Navy ships that will carry supplies such as blankets, hygiene kits and baby food to Georgia. Paul Farley, a spokesman for the Souda Bay U.S. naval base in Crete, said all three ships were expected to reach Georgia "within the next week." He did not give their exact destination."
@7
And you think that how the liberations of Thessaly and Makedonia 100 years ago happened, have anything to do with where you Fyromian Slavs come from?
If thats the issue, then go back to 600ad and see where you came from and be proud that you are Slavo-bulgaro-albanians and not Makedonians, therefor Greeks :)
To all pro pseudo-macedonians,
I suggest all of you go to the history books and study how the northern border grew in 1887(the "liberation" of thessaly) and in 1913(the "liberation" of Makedonia after the partition). You can put all your twists on it and say what you want but the books of history tell the truth of what happened less than "2000" years ago. "Fyrom" is the one that has taken someone elses "culture" and "idenity"("Greek Makedonia") and claims it as its own. It is time to realize and admit the truth.
To all pro greeks,
I suggest all of you go to the history books and study how the northern border grew in 1887(the annex of thessaly) and in 1913(the annex of Makedonia after the partition). You can put all your twists on it and say what you want but the books of history tell the truth of what happened less than 100 years ago. Greece is the one that has taken someone elses name(Makedonia) and claims it as its own. It is time to realize and admit the truth.
this name issue is a circle..
if two countries in Europe decide to form a union and call it the European Union, then EU cannot Veto it since they are in Europe, and have same rights as any other country to call it that way.
If Macedonia, Albania and Kosova form a union together and call it European Union, what will be then the greek next complain?? that they cannot be called this way, or that they cannot join EU as a union.
Former communists, recently turned right wing biggots, are totally despised by the old Europeans
which regard new Europe as US
puppets.
Your country's contribution to the western alliance?Well
i forgot , you've sent 1600
soldiers in Iraq to participate in the slaughter of 1 million and the displacement of 6 million Iraqis.Well done.
Now on the name issue Greece
has made its proposals which
have been watered down form the original ones.The ball is at Gruevski's court.If he
doesn't want to play and wants to pull out of the negotiations we are willing to reciprocate.
My friend you appear to be more anti-greek than any other reader of the side, why so much envy?
At least Greece is much more western than your Czech Republic who was officially "east" for more than 60 years, one of the most fanatic anti-western soviet tools during the cold war. The only thing that is connecting you to the "west" now is your geographical position and your religion. Because your undeveloped thirld world economy, your poor country and mainly your culture...is still very "east", and has absolutely nothing to do with the west!
And your great desire to feel "west" of course... after 60 years of being fanatic and totally "east" you decided to change.
Greece simply can wait into the "Macedonian issue". Greece presented with facts in the NATO summit in Bucharest last March, that the name issure is directly connected to territorial claims of Fyrom over Greece.
The majority of the allies (even the eastern "puppet states" like the Chech Republic) agreed with Greece totally and officially argued Fyrom to "solve the name issue" before trying to join NATO.
The French president Nicola Sarkozy publically stated that "Greece is right on the name issue and Fyrom has to solve the name issue with Greece if she wants to be a member of any international organization".
Taking these facts into consideration, Greece has nothing to loose, she can wait. Fyrom will NEVER be a member of NATO, it will NEVER be a member of the EU, it will never get ayn EU funds to develop her economy, it will NEVER stabilise it's political unity with the Albanians.
Greece can wait for as long as it takes. Fyrom cannot wait for a second.
There is absolutely no reason to allow the Vardarskans access to the Hellenic name of Makedonia. There are many reasons to call Vardarskans who they really are: A Slavic people unrelated to Hellenism other than their Christianization link, and secondarily an Albanian people.
I've got a better idea - let's kick Greece out of NATO & EU as an unreliable heavily pro-Russian and anti-Western country and replace it with the like of Macedonia that surely values protection by her allies and will actually give something back, unlike Greece.
"It was the first of three U.S. Navy ships that will carry supplies such as blankets, hygiene kits and baby food to Georgia. Paul Farley, a spokesman for the Souda Bay U.S. naval base in Crete, said all three ships were expected to reach Georgia "within the next week." He did not give their exact destination."
My friend you appear to be more anti-greek than any other reader of the side, why so much envy?
At least Greece is much more western than your Czech Republic who was officially "east" for more than 60 years, one of the most fanatic anti-western soviet tools during the cold war. The only thing that is connecting you to the "west" now is your geographical position and your religion. Because your undeveloped thirld world economy, your poor country and mainly your culture...is still very "east", and has absolutely nothing to do with the west!
And your great desire to feel "west" of course... after 60 years of being fanatic and totally "east" you decided to change.
Greece simply can wait into the "Macedonian issue". Greece presented with facts in the NATO summit in Bucharest last March, that the name issure is directly connected to territorial claims of Fyrom over Greece.
The majority of the allies (even the eastern "puppet states" like the Chech Republic) agreed with Greece totally and officially argued Fyrom to "solve the name issue" before trying to join NATO.
The French president Nicola Sarkozy publically stated that "Greece is right on the name issue and Fyrom has to solve the name issue with Greece if she wants to be a member of any international organization".
Taking these facts into consideration, Greece has nothing to loose, she can wait. Fyrom will NEVER be a member of NATO, it will NEVER be a member of the EU, it will never get ayn EU funds to develop her economy, it will NEVER stabilise it's political unity with the Albanians.
Greece can wait for as long as it takes. Fyrom cannot wait for a second.
Former communists, recently turned right wing biggots, are totally despised by the old Europeans
which regard new Europe as US
puppets.
Your country's contribution to the western alliance?Well
i forgot , you've sent 1600
soldiers in Iraq to participate in the slaughter of 1 million and the displacement of 6 million Iraqis.Well done.
Now on the name issue Greece
has made its proposals which
have been watered down form the original ones.The ball is at Gruevski's court.If he
doesn't want to play and wants to pull out of the negotiations we are willing to reciprocate.
Second time post, just in case the first time gets "forgotten".....
It seems strange to me how B92 hasnt posted my answers in both this and another (today's) article. I wouldnt want it to seem that I didnt answer both of those.
Anyway.
@23
Let me give you some clues.
Harper Collins edition of world atlas is a book published in the usa (if i am not mistaken) which is a country that has recognised you under the illegal name you use. So I find it very normal for them to use the term "macedonia" instead of fyrom. Actually the world atlas isnt a historic book. Its an....... ATLAS!!!!!
Which means.... that you really have nothing in your hands.
Have you really read what I wrote?
Is an atlas, a source of anything concerning history? I will give you some quotes and titles.
Quote:
Most of the Slavophone inhabitants in all parts of divided Macedonia perhaps a million and a half in all - felt themselves to be Bulgarians at the beginning of the Occupation; and most Bulgarians, whether they supported the Communists, IMRO, or the collaborating government, assumed that all Macedonia would fall to Bulgaria after the war. Tito was I determined that this should not happen.
[C.M. Woodhouse,The Struggle for Greece 1941-1949,page 67]
Quote:
Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom
[Eugene Borza,The Macedonian Rendux]
Quote:
On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians.
[Eugene Borza,The Macedonian Rendux]
Quote:
The history of the construction of a macedonian national identity does not begin with alexander the great in the fourth century b.c. or with saints cyril and methodius in the ninth century a.d., as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim. nor does it begin with tito and the establishment of the people's republic of macedonia in 1944 as greek nationalist historians would have us believe.
It begins in the nineteenth century with the first expressions of macedonian ethnic nationalism on the part of a small number of intellectuals in places like thessaloniki, belgrade, sophia, and st.petersburg. this period marks the beginning of the process of "imagining" a macedonian national community, the beginning of the construction of a macedonian national identity and culture.
[Loring Danforth,The Macedonian Conflict. Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World,page 56]
Quote:
Basil II of Constantinople in 1014 decided to end once and for all a war that had already lasted forty years. To break the spirit of the hated Bulgarians, he blinded all but 150 of 15,000 prisoners. The “lucky” 150 were blinded in one eye only. Every 100 blind men were guided by a one-eyed leader back to the Bulgarian capital of Ohdrid, whose ruler, Samuel , had received word that his army was returning to him. Samuel hastened to meet his men and found himself staring at thousand of helpless blind men. The sight was fatal. Samuel suffered a stroke on the spot and died two days later. (Basil II received the surname Bulgaroktonos, meaning “slayer of Bulgarians”, )
Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts By Isaac Asimov, page 225
Quote:
They population of Uskioub, consisting of Arnouts, Jews, Armenians, Zinzars, Greeks, Bulgarians and Servians, amounts to upwards of twelve thousand
"Travels in European Turkey, in 1850: Through Bosnia, Servia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Thrace,..." By Edmund Spencer, page 28, Published 1851
Quote:
As the day was drawing to a close, we descended into the vast plain of Bittoglia, where we had to ford several unimportant streams rushing onward to the sluggish waters of the karasu,..With the exception of a few Greeks and Zinzars, the congregation consisted of Bulgarians, EASILY DISTINGUISHED by their short, thick-set figures, honest open countenances, and the unvarying costume, we before described
"Travels in European Turkey, in 1850: Through Bosnia, Servia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Thrace,..." By Edmund Spencer, page 46, Published 1851
Quote:
Those of the vilayets of Adrianople and Macedonia , where, at the recent census, two-thirds of the inhabitants were found to be Bulgarians
"The Balkan Peninsula" by E. Laveleye, 1887, Page 251
Quote:
The unfortunate Armenians are at the present time most piteously oppressed and pillaged by the Kurds, the Circassians, and more especially by Turkish functionaries. 'Their condition is very similar to that of the Bulgarians in Macedonia
"The Balkan Peninsula" by E. Laveleye, 1887, Page 305
Quote:
But having lived now with the Montenegrins, the Serbs, and the Bulgarian 'Macedonians,' I clung to the idea that somehow or other I must get right into Albanian territories
"The Burden of the Balkans" By M. Edith Durham 1863-1944, page 207
Quote:
In Monastir also, the majority of the inhabitants is Bulgarian, and Bulgarian is the language in the market
"We, the Macedonians", by Constantine Stephanove
Quote:
and Uskub, the great majority of the population is Slavic, ... the middle ages until 1913 called themselves and were called by their neighbors Bulgarians
"The Journal of International Relations" By george h. blakeslee
Translation: If Bulgaria, after many hesitations and not without regret, did the great sacrifice and give up Uskub, whose population is Bulgarian
Quote:
The writer who has frequently visited Monastir, can add his to mony to these pronouncements. The population of Monastir is Turkish, Bulgarian and Vlach
"The Quarterly Review" Published 1872, J. Murray
Quote:
Istambul, August 15, 1903:
SIR,
The political situation in Macedonia continues to grow worse each week.[...]
The real foundation for all the trouble is the desire of the BULGARIAN
population for freedom from Turkish rule, and were the powers to say to Bulgaria what they have already said to Turkey, "that under no conditions
would she be permitted to take one foot on additional soil", the trouble
would be speedily ended , but this they will not do, and consequently the
twentieth century crusade against the Turks is likely to go on, as no power,
not excepting Germany, is to brave public opinion openly taking sides with
the Turks against the Christians".
Quote:
September 19, 1903:
"The Bulgarian government is in most delicate position.... and unless the
powers should intervene Bulgaria will be forced openly to embrace the
Macedonian cause. ... I am quite of the opinion that the people in Bulgaria
will revolt against the government unless something be done..." writes the
American ambassador at the Porte, Leishman
John G. Leishman, US Ambassador to the Sublime Porte (serving 1900 - 1908)
to John Hay, American Secretary of State.Source: U.S. Deaprtment of State.
Diplomatic Despatches. Despatches from U.S. Ministers to Turkey, 1818 -
1906. National Archives Publications, M46, Roll 72, July 5 - October 29,
1903.
Quote:
The name ANTES suggest this people was intermixed with Iranians, and linguists point to a large number of Iranian loanwords in Slavic that were acquired very early. This would not be surpsising if the Slavs came from Ukraine because they would have had contact with both Iranian Scythians and Sarmatians. Indeed the Sarmatians were still to be found in Backa and the Banat near the Danybe at the time Slavs arrived there.
"The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century" By John Van Antwerp Fine, page 26
Quote:
Most of the Balkans were settled by Slavs of one of the two types. (excluding the smaller groups of Slavic Slovenes and Turkic Avars in the western Balkans). Each one of these two main Slavic groups was to be named for a second conquering group who appeared later in te Seventh century.
The first of these two groups was the Bulgaro-Macedonians, whose Slavic component the Bulgarian historian Zlatarski derives from the Antes. They were conquered in the late seventh century by the Turkic Bulgars. The slavs eventually assimilated them, but the Bulgars' name survived.
"The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century" By John Van Antwerp Fine, page 36
Quote:
Until the late nineteenth century both outside observers and those Bulgaro-Macedonians who had an ethnic consiousness believed that their group, which is NOW two seperate nationalities, comprised a SINGLE people, THE BULGARIANS. Thus the reader should IGNORE references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle Ages which appear in some modern works. In the Middle Ages and into the nineteenth century, the term 'Macedonian' was used ENTIRELY in reference to a geographical region. Anyone who lived within its confines, regardless of nationality could be called a Macedonian.
"The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century" By John Van Antwerp Fine, Page 37
Quote:
It is the national identity of these Slav Macedonians that has been the most violently contested aspect of the whole Macedonian dispute, and is still being contested today. There is NO DOUBT that they are southern Slavs; they have a language, or a group of varying dialects, that is grammatically akin to Bulgarian but phonetically in some respects akin to Serbian, and which has certain quite distinctive features of its own.
[Elisabeth Barker, "Macedonia, its place in Balkan power politics",
(originally published in 1950 by the Royal Institute of International Affairs), p.10]
Quote:
In regard to their own national feelings, all that can SAFELY be said is that during the last eighty years many MORE Slav Macedonians seem to have considered themselves Bulgarian, or closely linked to Bulgaria, than have considered themselves Serbian, or closely linked to Serbia (or Yugoslavia). Only the people of the Skoplje region, in the north west, have ever shown much tendency to regard themselves as Serbs. The feeling of being Macedonians, and nothiNg but Macedonians, seems to be a sentiment of fairly recent growth, and even today is not very deep-rooted.
[Elisabeth Barker, "Macedonia, its place in Balkan power politics",
(originally published in 1950 by the Royal Institute of International Affairs), p.10]
Quote:
May the heroic Serb people at last find the necessary moral force--and they have it, it dwells within them--to recognize spontaneously what has long and unanimously been recognized by history, science, and the national sentiment of the Macedonian population itself, which sees in the Bulgarians ITS BROTHERS in language and blood, and which has fought hand in hand with them for religion, life, and liberty.
[N.S. Derzhavin, "Bulgaro-Serb Relations and the Macedonian Question", (1918)]
Quote:
You seem to be afraid of Kimon Georgiev, you have involved yourselves too much with him and do not want to give autonomy to Pirin Macedonia. That a Macedonian consciousness HAS NOT YET DEVELOPED AMONG THE POPULATION IS OF NO ACCOUNT. No such consciousness existed in Byelorussia either when we proclaimed it a Soviet Republic. However, later it was shown that a Byelorussian people did in fact exist.
[Stalin to Bulgarian Delegation (G. Dimitrov, V. Korarov, T. Kostov) on 7 June 1946]
Quote:
It should be remembered, to begin with, that there is NO Macedonian race, as a distinct type. Macedonians may belong to any of the races of Eastern Europe or Western Asia, as, indeed, they do. A Macedonian Bulgar is just the same as a Bulgar of Bulgaria proper, the old principality, that in October, 1908, at Tirnova, was proclaimed independent of Turkey. He looks the same, talks the same, and very largely, thinks the same way. IN SHORT HE IS OF THE SAME STOCK. There is no difference, whatsoever, between the two branches of the race, except that the Macedonian Bulgars, as a result of their position under the Turkish government, have less culture and education than their northern brethren.
[Arthur Douglas Howden Smith, "Fighting the Turk in the Balkans: An American's Adventures with the Macedonian Revolutionists", 1908, p. 4-5]
Quote:
In general, however, the Macedonian Slavs differ somewhat both in appearance and character from their neighbours beyond the Bulgarian and Servian frontiers: the peculiar type which they present is probably due to a considerable admixture of Vlach, Hellenic, Albanian and Turkish blood, and to the influence of the surrounding races. Almost all independent authorities,however, agree that the bulk of the Slavonic population of Macedonia IS BULGARIAN. The principal indication is furnished by the language, which, though resembling Servian in some respects (e.g. the case-endings, which are occasionally retained), presents most of the characteristic features of Bulgarian.
[The 1911 Edition Encyclopedia](found this online but cant remember the link, sorry)
Quote:
Modern turkish histories present the idea that the macedonian question was the essential ingredient in understanding the volatile mix of problems that ultimately led to Balkan wars. Because the population of Macedonia was primarily Bulgarian, it was influenced heavily by the events of 1878. It is very likely that the establishment of the greater Bulgaria envisioned by the treaty of San Stefano, and which included much of Macedonia whetted the nationalistic appetites of a substantial portion of the Bulgarian population of Macedonia.
"Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912-1913" By Edward J. Erickson, page 39
Quote:
In Sofia, Bulgarians organized the Adrianople Region- MAcedonia Committee in 1890, and in Salonika, the internal Macedonian Revolutionary committee and Organization was formed in 1893.
"Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912-1913" By Edward J. Erickson, page 42
IT IS THEREFORE NO LONGER NECESSARY TO DEMONSTRATE THE MYTHICAL CHARACTER OF THE "MACEDONIAN" nationality in the eyes of every element in the Macedonian population.
Allen Upward, "The East End of Europe", London 1908, pp 25-27
Quote:
And so the "Bulgarophone" villagers are no longer willing to admit they speak Bulgarian. They have coined a NEW term of their own accord, and henceforth, until they have got rid of it, is to be known as "Macedonian". My Athenian friends were delighted when I told them of this on my return. It should give even greater pleasure to those Bulgarian agents who are SO ANXIOUS TO SEE THE MACEDONIANS TAUGHT THEY ARE MACEDONIANS
Allen Upward, "The East End of Europe", London 1908, pp 205
Quote:
The origin of the Macedonian dispute the south-east half of Slav Macedonia where the population was most nearly Bulgarian
"The New Macedonian Question" (St. Antony's) by James Pettifer, page 12
Quote:
Where an overaching identity existed among Slavs in Macedonia, it was a Bulgarian one UNTIL at least the 1860s. The cultural impetus for a seperated Macedonian identity would only emerge LATER
"Outcast Europe" BY Tom Gallagher, page 47
Quote:
..descendant of Samuil, collected an army and took the chief Bulgarian town, Skopje, and soon came to dominate Thrace, Epirus and Macedonia
"A Concise History of Bulgaria (Cambridge Concise Histories)" by R. J. Crampton, page 23
Quote:
Among the Bulgarians of Prilep, after the ceremony in church is over, one of the brothers entertains his relatives..
"Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics", Part 4 by James Hastings, page 79
Quote:
Monastir is an undistinguished, motley sort of town of some 60,000 nhabitants, 14,000 of them Greek, 10,000 of them Bulgarian, four or five thousand Albanian, two or three thousand Jew, and the rest Turk.
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), chapter 20.
Quote:
But who are the Macedonians? You will find Bulgarians and Turks who call themselves Macedonians, you find Greek Macedonians, there are Servian Macedonians, and it is possible to find Roumanian Macedonians. You will NOT, however, find a single Christian Macedonian who is not a Servian, a Bulgarian, a Greek, or a Roumanian. They all curse the Turk, and they love Macedonia. But it is Greek Macedonia, or Bulgarian Macedonia, and their eyes flame with passion, whilst their fingers seek the triggers of their guns
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), PAGE 5
Quote:
They visited the Bulgarian villages, levied contributions, and stored arms, so that on an appointed day there might be a rising against the Turk, and Bulgarian Macedonians be liberated from their oppressors for ever. Naturally they were greeted as heroes;
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), PAGE 8
Quote:
i have some hope that in years to come the inhabitants will think less of their Turkish, Bulgarian or Greek Origin and a great deal more with the fact that they are all Macedonians.
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), PAGE 17
Quote:
I hope you are not making any racial distinctions between Bulgars and Macedonians. I believe the Bulgars who have come from Macedonia are registered on Ellis Island as Macedonians, which is bound to be confusing and inaccurate, for Macedonians may include Greeks, Vlachs, and even Turks. The distinction between the Bulgars from Bulgaria and those from Macedonia is PURELY political. Many of those who are registered as Greeks are so in church affiliation only, being Slavic by race and tongue.
"Our Slavic Fellow Citizens" By Emily Greene Balch pp 274-275
Quote:
It is very interesting to compare together the different inhabitants of European Turkey, such as the Servians, the Bulgarians, the Wallachians, the Greeks, and the Albanians. The Servians and Bulgarians may be said to be nearly the same people, and appear to be more numerous than the Greeks;
"The Edinburgh New Philosophical Journal: exhibiting a view of the Progressive discoveries.." Published 1838
by A. and C. Black - Original from the New York Public Library - p.240
Quote:
The language of these various populations divides itself into two principal idioms: each of these into three where the difference is less. Of the Southern dialect are the Slovaks, the Serbs and Bulgarians; of the Northern, the Bohemians, Poles, and Russians.
"Vacation Tourists and Notes of Travel in 1860" By Francis Galton Published 1861 Macmillan and co. Original from the University of Michigan, page 108
Please point out one book that was written by a Greek writer.
Really Doni? What do I remember things very different in the NATO summit in Bucharest last March really???
I remember president Bush to announce publically (and proudly...) that "Macedonia will sign her entrance in the alliance today" and just some hours later... the Greek veto!
Everybody - even the closest US allies - were laughing at him, in the diplomatic fiasco he put his country and the Alliance in, one of the biggest diplomatic fiascos that an american goverment ever had!
Without asking Greece, he publically anounced "Macedonia's entrance" and some hours later - after the Greek "slap" on his face - he did not know what to say in front of the journalists!
If Greece does not want, Fyrom will not get in anywhere - even in the next 1000 years. Even if the US want, they will still do not get it. And Greece proved that VERY clearly in the NATO summit in Bucharest last March.
There is absolutely no reason to allow the Vardarskans access to the Hellenic name of Makedonia. There are many reasons to call Vardarskans who they really are: A Slavic people unrelated to Hellenism other than their Christianization link, and secondarily an Albanian people.
To all pro pseudo-macedonians,
I suggest all of you go to the history books and study how the northern border grew in 1887(the "liberation" of thessaly) and in 1913(the "liberation" of Makedonia after the partition). You can put all your twists on it and say what you want but the books of history tell the truth of what happened less than "2000" years ago. "Fyrom" is the one that has taken someone elses "culture" and "idenity"("Greek Makedonia") and claims it as its own. It is time to realize and admit the truth.
I've got a better idea - let's kick Greece out of NATO & EU as an unreliable heavily pro-Russian and anti-Western country and replace it with the like of Macedonia that surely values protection by her allies and will actually give something back, unlike Greece.
this name issue is a circle..
if two countries in Europe decide to form a union and call it the European Union, then EU cannot Veto it since they are in Europe, and have same rights as any other country to call it that way.
If Macedonia, Albania and Kosova form a union together and call it European Union, what will be then the greek next complain?? that they cannot be called this way, or that they cannot join EU as a union.
@7
And you think that how the liberations of Thessaly and Makedonia 100 years ago happened, have anything to do with where you Fyromian Slavs come from?
If thats the issue, then go back to 600ad and see where you came from and be proud that you are Slavo-bulgaro-albanians and not Makedonians, therefor Greeks :)
It is impressing Doni that every time you write a comment you get ten's of recommendations in the first minute! Your "ten's of viewers" must be there waiting for your comment and recomend it the moment it comes out!
But remember: You cannot write a good comment - only supporting it with fake recommenadtions. You also have to write good and true things in it...
@14
I would really love you to recommend one, ONE, history book that would be, under your criteria, one of those that a Greek should read to learn Greek history.
On the other hand I can recommend you hundrends of books written by non Greeks that show what the real relation of Fyrom and its Slav inhabitants is and how they have nothing to do with Greeks of Makedonia.
What is important for someone like you that urging others to learn "real history", is that one thing is facts, other thing is interpretation of facts and a third thing is your own view on the interpretation of facts.
Comon link in all of the above is the facts. The hard evidence. And what is hard evidence is the written language of the Makedonians (doric Greek), the common gods of the Makedonians with the rest of the Greeks, the constant inclusion of the Makedonians among other Greeks, the common fights of the Makedonians along with the other Greeks, the continuity of the ancient Greek tradition from real Makedonians until our days, the dresses, the musical instruments, the, the the the.
I can go on and on you know. I am afraid your facts and hard evidence is much less than 3 words.
Can you present them please?
@20
Again you fail to understand what I have explained before:
We the Makedonians, do not claim to be something different than who we are and the whole world knows who we are.
You the Fyromians claim to be something that you arent and it is you that you have to provide proof for what you are claiming. You are trying to re-write history. I take the challenge. Any proof? History is written based on proof and is revealed by serious research, not by claiming out of thin air that you are something or someone. And so far noone in the whole world has provided any kind of solid evidence or strong argument on your (as it is obvious) imaginery fairy tale.
You say there are books and maps. You want maps? I know of hundrends of them all around the world that can counter any of those you bring me. You want books? I know of hundrends of them that existed before your Slavic tribes came to our area. The thing is, do you have any? You couldnt even write at that time, what kind of proof are you talking about? We, the Greeks taught you how to write. Or maybe Kyrillos and Methodios werent Greek either? If so, why were they learning your language for 8 years in Konstantinople before they start educating you? It isnt this a fact? Because there is proof of even that. But you know, I start to believe that the words proof, evidence, fact, research are among those that Kyrillos and Methodios forgot to put in your dictionary.
As for the Greeks in Albania. Greeks in North Epiros were asking for their rights since the end of WW2. The fact that you have heard about it only now, doesnt give you an argument in your favor.
To all pro greeks,
I suggest all of you go to the history books and study how the northern border grew in 1887(the annex of thessaly) and in 1913(the annex of Makedonia after the partition). You can put all your twists on it and say what you want but the books of history tell the truth of what happened less than 100 years ago. Greece is the one that has taken someone elses name(Makedonia) and claims it as its own. It is time to realize and admit the truth.
@17
I am only going to comment one of the points you made, because for all the rest what you said apllies to you too.
"However please do not claim that MAKEDONIA is greece until you learn more. If that was the case, we would call it greece."
Well, in case you dont know it yet, we dont claim that Makedonia is Greece. We already know that. You claim that Makedonia isnt Greece, so any kind of providing relevant argument is on your side.
Also, and because THAT is the case, we already call Makedonia Greece, so there is really no argument there for you. Once again, the burdain of argument is on your side who want to call Greece as something else, and for which none of your scholars or scientists ever provided a valid one (argument).
Before calling left and right others as ignorant or uneducated, try to be one first.
Maps in Louvre are something to be used in research. As are maps in Fyrom, Greece, Italy, Turkey, UK, Germany and many other places.
If you can figure out what the importance of research is and that research alone doesnt constitute an argument but the means to one, then we can talk again.
Until then, try and find some real hard facts and evidence that prove your stance on the issue, since you have none.
And always remember. We dont claim anything other than we already have and has been proved throughout centuries. YOU are the ones that need to proove their claims. Not us.
Aleksandar is now silenced!... Of course.. it is too easy to say to others "open a history book" when you know that there is not one history book that can support your views.
Don't expect comments on your quotes. Aleksandar and his compatriots base their whole idenity in twisting history and claiming someone else's history and culture as their own.
Thanks for the time you spend, to answer to all these propagandists. We are not that many doing so...
@10
This is hilarious:
"Number of recommendations 25"
Its ok Doni. Keep recommending yourself. One day you might grow to reach 100 in less than 4 minutes. :)
"a spokesman for the Souda Bay U.S. naval base in Crete, said all three ships were expected to reach Georgia "within the next week." He did not give their exact destination."
so you will recognize macedonia if US says"
Is this another of your very sofisticated conclusions? The "Greece will recognise Kossovo by the end of the month" kind?
Have you even bother to read your own post? It says :U.S. naval base.
And it is wrong!!! Because it is a Nato base, not usa. I wonder sometimes, what kind of resources do you people use :)
And in any case, even if it was a usa base, please tell me exactly how is this going to force Greece to do whatever the usa wants?
Hey pavlos and nikitas,
You both need to read the WORLD history books which have the truth in them. They are written by truly educated historians which are not pressured by greek politicians. Seems to me that you are reading the greek version which is written by greeks that only know the greek side. If You want to know the real and true history, then you have to come out of your narrow and greek minded box. If you have ever seen a map of the Roman Empire you would know that greece and MAKODONIA were two SEPARATE AND DIFFERENT LANDS BOTH LABELED WITH THEIR OWN TRUE AND CORRECT NAMES. They were both ruled by ROME. Do your greek historians not know how to read a simple map? You can go back as many years as you want and that is what you will find. How can greece claim that Makedonia was greece when history (true history) DOES NOT say that? May I suggest that you both take your heads out of the greek box and learn TRUE WORLD HISTORY not just the greek virsion.
To pavlos,
I would kindly ask you to write your own comments. Please do not take my content and put your twist on it by changing some words in it (annex to libiration). Is that too much to ask or is it still a GREEK practice to take other peoples things (written content or names to name a couple) and to claim that they are yours. May I remind you that it is illegal to take other peoples things and claim them to be your own especially written content. Is that practice still active in greece?
I will thank you now for not doing it again and showing the world that SOME GREEKS know how to follow rules and not BREAK THE LAW.
My friend - the relation you have with "Aleksander the Great" and Macedonia... 0%!
You are a Slav people, you have NO RELATION at all with the ancient Greek Kingdom of Macedonia, you came to the region as Slavs in the 6th century, you speak a BULGARIAN idiom, you are ETHNIC BULGARIANS, and finally you have... NO RELATION TO MACEDONIA AT ALL.
So please, don't talk about history. Your whole "identity" is based on twisting history and liying.
To all that can find and only understand the greek version of history.
The only people that want proof are the ones that truly are unable to find it or ones that refuse to believe and admit it once they see it.
The proof and MANY BOOKS and maps exist all around you and you are responsible for finding and understanding or admitting wether it is true or has a political twist to it.
From the comments I see, it looks like the greeks are the only ones that refuse to admit that there may be another version to what they and only they claim.
Boys I am happy to say that you can call it whatever you like but you are the ONLY ones that label this great land by something other than THE REPUBLIC OF MAKEDONIA.
You seem to have short memories, greece was the ONLY veto. You claim knowledge of history when you can't remember something that happened a few months ago.
It is interesting too that now greeks in ALBANIA want minority rights. The greeks seem to want to take advantage of the benefits of EU rules only when it is to their advantage.
Rules are two sided and apply to all parties not just the side that benefits.
Greece as an EU member should follow the rules even if is not to her benefit.
I have one question. What right minded human believes that a country can be ethnically pure with no minorities? The greeks claim it but how many people believe it?
Again you can say whatever you like but what really matters is who believes the things you say. It is still THE REPUBLIC OF MAKEDONIA and not greece.
To Pavlos,
The question is not where I am from or what relation I have to Makedonia(NOT GREECE). My comments are strictly toward your peoples knowledge and recognition of TRUE history. Recent or ancient, whichever you choose, does not tell your version.
In addition, I would like to thank you for not taking my writing and twisting it to make it look like your own. You have shown me that at least one greek doesn't follow THAT common GREEK practice.
I kindly ask you to expand your mind and read books and maps of history not written or influenced by greek politics.
May I suggest Roman or French history books and maps.
If you don't know where to find any then I suggest the very popular museum in Paris.
In case you don't know it, The LOUVRE. Or you could go on the internet as you are now, and get all the TRUE information.
That is the beauty of the internet and other countries knowledge of history, niether one is influenced by greek politics.
You should learn and expand your mind before you claim knowledge of history. Your claim of relation to ancient greece is not argued. However please do not claim that MAKEDONIA is greece until you learn more. If that was the case, we would call it greece.
You can claim all you want about your knowledge of history but it seems that you have missed some information.
Hey nikitas,
It seems that the greeks think that if they add an "o" and "s" to the end of all words they read it makes them greek. I repeat, GET INFORMATION OUTSIDE OF YOUR GREEK BOX. You fail to realize all the greek info you know may not be fact.
It is also interesting to note that all you know is how the greeks were affected during and after WWII. How many other people were affected by that conflict? With your knowledge of history you must think that it was only the greeks. That is probably what your greek historians have written and taught you.
YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND GREECE. Are you going to claim that this statement is not true. I'm sure your educators and you are going to ask for proof of that since everything without a greek twist on it must be proven to the greek.
As for me not knowing about the greeks in Albania, I would like to correct you.
I have full knowledge about ALL the people that were affected by that conflict. To you, if it doesn't have anything to do with greece, it didn't happen. Would you like for me to direct you to books to prove that to you or do you think you can manage to find all the information on your own? I wonder if your greek educators taught you how to find information outside of the greek box. Do they teach you to place and "o" and and "s" at the end of every word or name and that will make it greek. It must be these teachings that the greeks follow when they (and you) take other persons information or names and claim it to be theirs.
I ask you once again to expand your mind and realize that your greek teachers didn't know everything and weren't the only teachers in the world. In your narrow greek box of knowledge even this requires proof doesn't it?
I still laugh at the claim that greece has no minorities and does not recognize them. Take the box off of your head and see the light won't you. Did your educators not teach how to do that either? I forget , BOX does not have an "o" and "s" at the end of it and therefore, you don't realize it exists.
To nikitas,
It seems that with all your knowledge of everything, you are UNABLE to find at least one book with anything other than greek lies.
Well, let me help you with at least one book.
It is the called THE ATLAS OF WORLD HISTORY which is published by Harper Collins which happens to be a division of BORDERS. In case you have trouble reading the contents, I would like to refer you both(you and pavlos) to pages 75,76 or pages 214 and 215.
You will both note that MAKEDONIA AND greece are two DIFFERENT NATIONS with their own borders and not one and the same as you claim. These are just a couple of examples that you seek.
You see, this is just one of MANY books that your very knowledgable greek educators and politicians could not get their hands on so they could TWIST THE TRUTH.
I must warn you however, this book has the TRUTH in it and it may hurt you to read it. The information in it refers to time as far back as 3000 BC. You may suffer severe trauma by not seeing the word greece on some of those maps that far back in time.
You see, this book and MANY MORE were written outside of your greek and narrow minded box.
I would be willing to bet that your response will be that this and all the other books simply do not exist or are full of lies. Well, that is your response to everything that does not have a greek twist on it. That is fine though, because you have shown clearly how greeks think and fail to acknowledge truth because they (the greeks) FEAR THE TRUTH.
I am happy to tell both nikitas and pavlos that ALEKSANDAR is not silenced and never will be by your misleading statements. As I said in my previous statement, you will try to invalidate anything that does not have a greek twist to or that does not support the greek version. Also because the United States is not on your side, you want to discredit any country that is supported or recognized by her. Once again, it is not only one country that has the same view as the U.S. To you both, all the nations in the world that share the same view of history as in the case of MAKEDONIA, they don't know what they are talking about. You both should realize that you are not the only ones that have a knowledge of history(especially greek twisted propaganda). I said in my previous statement that you would try to claim the example I gave is not valid, true or false in some way. You have proven that. YOU BOTH HAVE TO REALIZE THAT EVERYONE DOESN'T BELIEVE YOUR GREEK PROPAGANDA. Whether I give you one example or a thousand, you will try to do the same. In any case I will suggest to both of you to look up anything on the Roman Empire and see if you learn something new. It is clear though, that you will not accept anything but your narrow minded greek teachings. In some way I can understand why you will not accept new and true information.
NEVER silenced, especially by FALSE PROPAGANDA.
"Happy learning".
Pavlos,
I would kindly like to refer you to comments #7 and #8. Please read them again and decide for yourself who it is that steals something and twists it to make it look like their own. Are you both going to deny that happened too? If so, that must be the same way you deny everything said that doesn't have a greek twist to it, EVEN THOUGH YOU SEE IT WITH YOUR OWN EYES. What's next, your denial of all the other nations that recognize and acknowledge views that don't agree with greece? They probably don't exist either do they? Take your blinders off.
@26
You really are something unbelievable.
I am sure you didnt bother to read any of what I posted. Otherwise you could see that none of it is from Greek books, Greek related sources or Greek writers.
Everything is from foreigners that made research on the issue.
Unfortunately, the word "history" and "research" applies only to what you like and you are fed with.
Nikitas,
I would like to correct you again. I am very believable. I bring out the side which you fail to acknowledge as possible truth. You, on the other hand, try to discredit everything that doesn't agree with your version. You even try to discredit other nations because they don't agree with your knowledge of history(although limited to one side). You must realize that you can't discredit the world because they don't agree with you. You only bring opinions that defend the greek side. You are either unable or unwilling to find statements which counter the greek side. You must realize that you have to look at all the information available and then you are able to find the truth. You cannot deny ones existence based on a one sided opinion. Everything you have presented has one side to it, greek. All the writers you refer to don't have to have greek names to have a greek sided opinion. And yes, I have read all of your comments. Just because I haven't responded in an hour or less does not mean I have been silenced as your freind says. I have repeatedly asked you both to take your blinders off but you have both failed to do so. In some ways, I feel sorry for you both because you both have failed to learn more about a subject which you are so passionate about.
"Happy learnig", but only if you want to learn the real truth of course.
Nikitas,
It seems that your supporter Pavlos is silenced after posed with the previous question. I do encourage him to answer it however.
Athough you both fail to use my name, it does not mean I do not exist or am silent.
I would also recommend that you too read some of your quotes.
Although I am sure you will try to discredit what am writing, I ask that you realize I am refering you to your own quotes.
In one, the question is asked "Who are the Macedonians?" Allow me to clarify your own quote. It refers to greek, serb, and bulgarian Macedonia. In case you wonder why there are three, I will gladly clarify for you. The country of Macedonia was under the cloak of the Ottoman Empire until the fall of that Empire in the early 1900's.(a nearly 600 year period which even the Ottomans acknowledge) That would be present day Turkey of which I know you both are huge fans.
That country of Macedonia (which had nothing to do with greece since greece is a whole other land) was partitioned into 3 parts Serb, Bulgarian, and of course greek. The greeks optained the largest portion which happens to be the land they(greeks) claim was theirs since ancient history. I do not claim to know greek math, however, it is unclear to me how the greeks can claim a period of less than 100 years can be ancient history. It must be that wealth of knowledge of math as well as history. I do not mean this as an insult, I merely bring out the flaws in your claims.
The other questions I have refers to your quote about the Ottomans in 1912-1913.
Which Macedonia does it refer to? Is it the Serb portion, the Bulgarian portion , or is it the greek portion? You obviously know by now that there are three.
You also fail to bring out that the Macedonian people were deceived in thinking that they were fighting the Ottomans for the re-unification of their land(THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA).
You too should read the quotes you bring and view them as other people might. That is the only way you will find the truth. You should also bring the complete qoute and not just the portion that supports your stance.
I would also like to add that present day REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA has NEVER claimed to seek a re-unification with neither the Bulgarian portion or the greek portion. Those claims are made ONLY by greeks who very well know that what I have just stated concerning the partition in the early 1900's is nothing short of the TRUTH AND THE WHOLE TRUTH. They (greeks) are merely displaying FEAR that there may a time in the future a re-unification may by sought. They are trying to elimnate that unlikely chance however small it may be.
If, however, that portion of land was always greek land inhabited by greek populous as they claim. Then what do the greeks have to fear? AGAIN I ASK "WHAT DO THE GREEKS HAVE TO FEAR"?
Is it possible that what the greeks claim is NOT TRUE?
In case your are unaware of it, that was the reason that the present day REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA changed their constitution and flag. To try to satisfy and eliminate the greek fear. As we have seen, that is not enough for them. If true history is as they claim(the greeks),then they have nothing to fear.
You both can try to discredit all that I write but remember that "YOU CAN NEVER SILENCE TRUTH".
I encourage you both to put your fears aside and learn more than just one sided history.
I've got a better idea - let's kick Greece out of NATO & EU as an unreliable heavily pro-Russian and anti-Western country and replace it with the like of Macedonia that surely values protection by her allies and will actually give something back, unlike Greece.
this name issue is a circle..
if two countries in Europe decide to form a union and call it the European Union, then EU cannot Veto it since they are in Europe, and have same rights as any other country to call it that way.
If Macedonia, Albania and Kosova form a union together and call it European Union, what will be then the greek next complain?? that they cannot be called this way, or that they cannot join EU as a union.
To all pro greeks,
I suggest all of you go to the history books and study how the northern border grew in 1887(the annex of thessaly) and in 1913(the annex of Makedonia after the partition). You can put all your twists on it and say what you want but the books of history tell the truth of what happened less than 100 years ago. Greece is the one that has taken someone elses name(Makedonia) and claims it as its own. It is time to realize and admit the truth.
"It was the first of three U.S. Navy ships that will carry supplies such as blankets, hygiene kits and baby food to Georgia. Paul Farley, a spokesman for the Souda Bay U.S. naval base in Crete, said all three ships were expected to reach Georgia "within the next week." He did not give their exact destination."
There is absolutely no reason to allow the Vardarskans access to the Hellenic name of Makedonia. There are many reasons to call Vardarskans who they really are: A Slavic people unrelated to Hellenism other than their Christianization link, and secondarily an Albanian people.
My friend you appear to be more anti-greek than any other reader of the side, why so much envy?
At least Greece is much more western than your Czech Republic who was officially "east" for more than 60 years, one of the most fanatic anti-western soviet tools during the cold war. The only thing that is connecting you to the "west" now is your geographical position and your religion. Because your undeveloped thirld world economy, your poor country and mainly your culture...is still very "east", and has absolutely nothing to do with the west!
And your great desire to feel "west" of course... after 60 years of being fanatic and totally "east" you decided to change.
Greece simply can wait into the "Macedonian issue". Greece presented with facts in the NATO summit in Bucharest last March, that the name issure is directly connected to territorial claims of Fyrom over Greece.
The majority of the allies (even the eastern "puppet states" like the Chech Republic) agreed with Greece totally and officially argued Fyrom to "solve the name issue" before trying to join NATO.
The French president Nicola Sarkozy publically stated that "Greece is right on the name issue and Fyrom has to solve the name issue with Greece if she wants to be a member of any international organization".
Taking these facts into consideration, Greece has nothing to loose, she can wait. Fyrom will NEVER be a member of NATO, it will NEVER be a member of the EU, it will never get ayn EU funds to develop her economy, it will NEVER stabilise it's political unity with the Albanians.
Greece can wait for as long as it takes. Fyrom cannot wait for a second.
Former communists, recently turned right wing biggots, are totally despised by the old Europeans
which regard new Europe as US
puppets.
Your country's contribution to the western alliance?Well
i forgot , you've sent 1600
soldiers in Iraq to participate in the slaughter of 1 million and the displacement of 6 million Iraqis.Well done.
Now on the name issue Greece
has made its proposals which
have been watered down form the original ones.The ball is at Gruevski's court.If he
doesn't want to play and wants to pull out of the negotiations we are willing to reciprocate.
To all pro pseudo-macedonians,
I suggest all of you go to the history books and study how the northern border grew in 1887(the "liberation" of thessaly) and in 1913(the "liberation" of Makedonia after the partition). You can put all your twists on it and say what you want but the books of history tell the truth of what happened less than "2000" years ago. "Fyrom" is the one that has taken someone elses "culture" and "idenity"("Greek Makedonia") and claims it as its own. It is time to realize and admit the truth.
@7
And you think that how the liberations of Thessaly and Makedonia 100 years ago happened, have anything to do with where you Fyromian Slavs come from?
If thats the issue, then go back to 600ad and see where you came from and be proud that you are Slavo-bulgaro-albanians and not Makedonians, therefor Greeks :)
Really Doni? What do I remember things very different in the NATO summit in Bucharest last March really???
I remember president Bush to announce publically (and proudly...) that "Macedonia will sign her entrance in the alliance today" and just some hours later... the Greek veto!
Everybody - even the closest US allies - were laughing at him, in the diplomatic fiasco he put his country and the Alliance in, one of the biggest diplomatic fiascos that an american goverment ever had!
Without asking Greece, he publically anounced "Macedonia's entrance" and some hours later - after the Greek "slap" on his face - he did not know what to say in front of the journalists!
If Greece does not want, Fyrom will not get in anywhere - even in the next 1000 years. Even if the US want, they will still do not get it. And Greece proved that VERY clearly in the NATO summit in Bucharest last March.
It is impressing Doni that every time you write a comment you get ten's of recommendations in the first minute! Your "ten's of viewers" must be there waiting for your comment and recomend it the moment it comes out!
But remember: You cannot write a good comment - only supporting it with fake recommenadtions. You also have to write good and true things in it...
@10
This is hilarious:
"Number of recommendations 25"
Its ok Doni. Keep recommending yourself. One day you might grow to reach 100 in less than 4 minutes. :)
"a spokesman for the Souda Bay U.S. naval base in Crete, said all three ships were expected to reach Georgia "within the next week." He did not give their exact destination."
so you will recognize macedonia if US says"
Is this another of your very sofisticated conclusions? The "Greece will recognise Kossovo by the end of the month" kind?
Have you even bother to read your own post? It says :U.S. naval base.
And it is wrong!!! Because it is a Nato base, not usa. I wonder sometimes, what kind of resources do you people use :)
And in any case, even if it was a usa base, please tell me exactly how is this going to force Greece to do whatever the usa wants?
Hey pavlos and nikitas,
You both need to read the WORLD history books which have the truth in them. They are written by truly educated historians which are not pressured by greek politicians. Seems to me that you are reading the greek version which is written by greeks that only know the greek side. If You want to know the real and true history, then you have to come out of your narrow and greek minded box. If you have ever seen a map of the Roman Empire you would know that greece and MAKODONIA were two SEPARATE AND DIFFERENT LANDS BOTH LABELED WITH THEIR OWN TRUE AND CORRECT NAMES. They were both ruled by ROME. Do your greek historians not know how to read a simple map? You can go back as many years as you want and that is what you will find. How can greece claim that Makedonia was greece when history (true history) DOES NOT say that? May I suggest that you both take your heads out of the greek box and learn TRUE WORLD HISTORY not just the greek virsion.
To pavlos,
I would kindly ask you to write your own comments. Please do not take my content and put your twist on it by changing some words in it (annex to libiration). Is that too much to ask or is it still a GREEK practice to take other peoples things (written content or names to name a couple) and to claim that they are yours. May I remind you that it is illegal to take other peoples things and claim them to be your own especially written content. Is that practice still active in greece?
I will thank you now for not doing it again and showing the world that SOME GREEKS know how to follow rules and not BREAK THE LAW.
My friend - the relation you have with "Aleksander the Great" and Macedonia... 0%!
You are a Slav people, you have NO RELATION at all with the ancient Greek Kingdom of Macedonia, you came to the region as Slavs in the 6th century, you speak a BULGARIAN idiom, you are ETHNIC BULGARIANS, and finally you have... NO RELATION TO MACEDONIA AT ALL.
So please, don't talk about history. Your whole "identity" is based on twisting history and liying.
To Pavlos,
The question is not where I am from or what relation I have to Makedonia(NOT GREECE). My comments are strictly toward your peoples knowledge and recognition of TRUE history. Recent or ancient, whichever you choose, does not tell your version.
In addition, I would like to thank you for not taking my writing and twisting it to make it look like your own. You have shown me that at least one greek doesn't follow THAT common GREEK practice.
I kindly ask you to expand your mind and read books and maps of history not written or influenced by greek politics.
May I suggest Roman or French history books and maps.
If you don't know where to find any then I suggest the very popular museum in Paris.
In case you don't know it, The LOUVRE. Or you could go on the internet as you are now, and get all the TRUE information.
That is the beauty of the internet and other countries knowledge of history, niether one is influenced by greek politics.
You should learn and expand your mind before you claim knowledge of history. Your claim of relation to ancient greece is not argued. However please do not claim that MAKEDONIA is greece until you learn more. If that was the case, we would call it greece.
You can claim all you want about your knowledge of history but it seems that you have missed some information.
@14
I would really love you to recommend one, ONE, history book that would be, under your criteria, one of those that a Greek should read to learn Greek history.
On the other hand I can recommend you hundrends of books written by non Greeks that show what the real relation of Fyrom and its Slav inhabitants is and how they have nothing to do with Greeks of Makedonia.
What is important for someone like you that urging others to learn "real history", is that one thing is facts, other thing is interpretation of facts and a third thing is your own view on the interpretation of facts.
Comon link in all of the above is the facts. The hard evidence. And what is hard evidence is the written language of the Makedonians (doric Greek), the common gods of the Makedonians with the rest of the Greeks, the constant inclusion of the Makedonians among other Greeks, the common fights of the Makedonians along with the other Greeks, the continuity of the ancient Greek tradition from real Makedonians until our days, the dresses, the musical instruments, the, the the the.
I can go on and on you know. I am afraid your facts and hard evidence is much less than 3 words.
Can you present them please?
@17
I am only going to comment one of the points you made, because for all the rest what you said apllies to you too.
"However please do not claim that MAKEDONIA is greece until you learn more. If that was the case, we would call it greece."
Well, in case you dont know it yet, we dont claim that Makedonia is Greece. We already know that. You claim that Makedonia isnt Greece, so any kind of providing relevant argument is on your side.
Also, and because THAT is the case, we already call Makedonia Greece, so there is really no argument there for you. Once again, the burdain of argument is on your side who want to call Greece as something else, and for which none of your scholars or scientists ever provided a valid one (argument).
Before calling left and right others as ignorant or uneducated, try to be one first.
Maps in Louvre are something to be used in research. As are maps in Fyrom, Greece, Italy, Turkey, UK, Germany and many other places.
If you can figure out what the importance of research is and that research alone doesnt constitute an argument but the means to one, then we can talk again.
Until then, try and find some real hard facts and evidence that prove your stance on the issue, since you have none.
And always remember. We dont claim anything other than we already have and has been proved throughout centuries. YOU are the ones that need to proove their claims. Not us.
To all that can find and only understand the greek version of history.
The only people that want proof are the ones that truly are unable to find it or ones that refuse to believe and admit it once they see it.
The proof and MANY BOOKS and maps exist all around you and you are responsible for finding and understanding or admitting wether it is true or has a political twist to it.
From the comments I see, it looks like the greeks are the only ones that refuse to admit that there may be another version to what they and only they claim.
Boys I am happy to say that you can call it whatever you like but you are the ONLY ones that label this great land by something other than THE REPUBLIC OF MAKEDONIA.
You seem to have short memories, greece was the ONLY veto. You claim knowledge of history when you can't remember something that happened a few months ago.
It is interesting too that now greeks in ALBANIA want minority rights. The greeks seem to want to take advantage of the benefits of EU rules only when it is to their advantage.
Rules are two sided and apply to all parties not just the side that benefits.
Greece as an EU member should follow the rules even if is not to her benefit.
I have one question. What right minded human believes that a country can be ethnically pure with no minorities? The greeks claim it but how many people believe it?
Again you can say whatever you like but what really matters is who believes the things you say. It is still THE REPUBLIC OF MAKEDONIA and not greece.
@20
Again you fail to understand what I have explained before:
We the Makedonians, do not claim to be something different than who we are and the whole world knows who we are.
You the Fyromians claim to be something that you arent and it is you that you have to provide proof for what you are claiming. You are trying to re-write history. I take the challenge. Any proof? History is written based on proof and is revealed by serious research, not by claiming out of thin air that you are something or someone. And so far noone in the whole world has provided any kind of solid evidence or strong argument on your (as it is obvious) imaginery fairy tale.
You say there are books and maps. You want maps? I know of hundrends of them all around the world that can counter any of those you bring me. You want books? I know of hundrends of them that existed before your Slavic tribes came to our area. The thing is, do you have any? You couldnt even write at that time, what kind of proof are you talking about? We, the Greeks taught you how to write. Or maybe Kyrillos and Methodios werent Greek either? If so, why were they learning your language for 8 years in Konstantinople before they start educating you? It isnt this a fact? Because there is proof of even that. But you know, I start to believe that the words proof, evidence, fact, research are among those that Kyrillos and Methodios forgot to put in your dictionary.
As for the Greeks in Albania. Greeks in North Epiros were asking for their rights since the end of WW2. The fact that you have heard about it only now, doesnt give you an argument in your favor.
Hey nikitas,
It seems that the greeks think that if they add an "o" and "s" to the end of all words they read it makes them greek. I repeat, GET INFORMATION OUTSIDE OF YOUR GREEK BOX. You fail to realize all the greek info you know may not be fact.
It is also interesting to note that all you know is how the greeks were affected during and after WWII. How many other people were affected by that conflict? With your knowledge of history you must think that it was only the greeks. That is probably what your greek historians have written and taught you.
YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND GREECE. Are you going to claim that this statement is not true. I'm sure your educators and you are going to ask for proof of that since everything without a greek twist on it must be proven to the greek.
As for me not knowing about the greeks in Albania, I would like to correct you.
I have full knowledge about ALL the people that were affected by that conflict. To you, if it doesn't have anything to do with greece, it didn't happen. Would you like for me to direct you to books to prove that to you or do you think you can manage to find all the information on your own? I wonder if your greek educators taught you how to find information outside of the greek box. Do they teach you to place and "o" and and "s" at the end of every word or name and that will make it greek. It must be these teachings that the greeks follow when they (and you) take other persons information or names and claim it to be theirs.
I ask you once again to expand your mind and realize that your greek teachers didn't know everything and weren't the only teachers in the world. In your narrow greek box of knowledge even this requires proof doesn't it?
I still laugh at the claim that greece has no minorities and does not recognize them. Take the box off of your head and see the light won't you. Did your educators not teach how to do that either? I forget , BOX does not have an "o" and "s" at the end of it and therefore, you don't realize it exists.
To nikitas,
It seems that with all your knowledge of everything, you are UNABLE to find at least one book with anything other than greek lies.
Well, let me help you with at least one book.
It is the called THE ATLAS OF WORLD HISTORY which is published by Harper Collins which happens to be a division of BORDERS. In case you have trouble reading the contents, I would like to refer you both(you and pavlos) to pages 75,76 or pages 214 and 215.
You will both note that MAKEDONIA AND greece are two DIFFERENT NATIONS with their own borders and not one and the same as you claim. These are just a couple of examples that you seek.
You see, this is just one of MANY books that your very knowledgable greek educators and politicians could not get their hands on so they could TWIST THE TRUTH.
I must warn you however, this book has the TRUTH in it and it may hurt you to read it. The information in it refers to time as far back as 3000 BC. You may suffer severe trauma by not seeing the word greece on some of those maps that far back in time.
You see, this book and MANY MORE were written outside of your greek and narrow minded box.
I would be willing to bet that your response will be that this and all the other books simply do not exist or are full of lies. Well, that is your response to everything that does not have a greek twist on it. That is fine though, because you have shown clearly how greeks think and fail to acknowledge truth because they (the greeks) FEAR THE TRUTH.
Second time post, just in case the first time gets "forgotten".....
It seems strange to me how B92 hasnt posted my answers in both this and another (today's) article. I wouldnt want it to seem that I didnt answer both of those.
Anyway.
@23
Let me give you some clues.
Harper Collins edition of world atlas is a book published in the usa (if i am not mistaken) which is a country that has recognised you under the illegal name you use. So I find it very normal for them to use the term "macedonia" instead of fyrom. Actually the world atlas isnt a historic book. Its an....... ATLAS!!!!!
Which means.... that you really have nothing in your hands.
Have you really read what I wrote?
Is an atlas, a source of anything concerning history? I will give you some quotes and titles.
Quote:
Most of the Slavophone inhabitants in all parts of divided Macedonia perhaps a million and a half in all - felt themselves to be Bulgarians at the beginning of the Occupation; and most Bulgarians, whether they supported the Communists, IMRO, or the collaborating government, assumed that all Macedonia would fall to Bulgaria after the war. Tito was I determined that this should not happen.
[C.M. Woodhouse,The Struggle for Greece 1941-1949,page 67]
Quote:
Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom
[Eugene Borza,The Macedonian Rendux]
Quote:
On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians.
[Eugene Borza,The Macedonian Rendux]
Quote:
The history of the construction of a macedonian national identity does not begin with alexander the great in the fourth century b.c. or with saints cyril and methodius in the ninth century a.d., as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim. nor does it begin with tito and the establishment of the people's republic of macedonia in 1944 as greek nationalist historians would have us believe.
It begins in the nineteenth century with the first expressions of macedonian ethnic nationalism on the part of a small number of intellectuals in places like thessaloniki, belgrade, sophia, and st.petersburg. this period marks the beginning of the process of "imagining" a macedonian national community, the beginning of the construction of a macedonian national identity and culture.
[Loring Danforth,The Macedonian Conflict. Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World,page 56]
Quote:
Basil II of Constantinople in 1014 decided to end once and for all a war that had already lasted forty years. To break the spirit of the hated Bulgarians, he blinded all but 150 of 15,000 prisoners. The “lucky” 150 were blinded in one eye only. Every 100 blind men were guided by a one-eyed leader back to the Bulgarian capital of Ohdrid, whose ruler, Samuel , had received word that his army was returning to him. Samuel hastened to meet his men and found himself staring at thousand of helpless blind men. The sight was fatal. Samuel suffered a stroke on the spot and died two days later. (Basil II received the surname Bulgaroktonos, meaning “slayer of Bulgarians”, )
Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts By Isaac Asimov, page 225
Quote:
They population of Uskioub, consisting of Arnouts, Jews, Armenians, Zinzars, Greeks, Bulgarians and Servians, amounts to upwards of twelve thousand
"Travels in European Turkey, in 1850: Through Bosnia, Servia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Thrace,..." By Edmund Spencer, page 28, Published 1851
Quote:
As the day was drawing to a close, we descended into the vast plain of Bittoglia, where we had to ford several unimportant streams rushing onward to the sluggish waters of the karasu,..With the exception of a few Greeks and Zinzars, the congregation consisted of Bulgarians, EASILY DISTINGUISHED by their short, thick-set figures, honest open countenances, and the unvarying costume, we before described
"Travels in European Turkey, in 1850: Through Bosnia, Servia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Thrace,..." By Edmund Spencer, page 46, Published 1851
Quote:
Those of the vilayets of Adrianople and Macedonia , where, at the recent census, two-thirds of the inhabitants were found to be Bulgarians
"The Balkan Peninsula" by E. Laveleye, 1887, Page 251
Quote:
The unfortunate Armenians are at the present time most piteously oppressed and pillaged by the Kurds, the Circassians, and more especially by Turkish functionaries. 'Their condition is very similar to that of the Bulgarians in Macedonia
"The Balkan Peninsula" by E. Laveleye, 1887, Page 305
Quote:
But having lived now with the Montenegrins, the Serbs, and the Bulgarian 'Macedonians,' I clung to the idea that somehow or other I must get right into Albanian territories
"The Burden of the Balkans" By M. Edith Durham 1863-1944, page 207
Quote:
In Monastir also, the majority of the inhabitants is Bulgarian, and Bulgarian is the language in the market
"We, the Macedonians", by Constantine Stephanove
Quote:
and Uskub, the great majority of the population is Slavic, ... the middle ages until 1913 called themselves and were called by their neighbors Bulgarians
"The Journal of International Relations" By george h. blakeslee
Translation: If Bulgaria, after many hesitations and not without regret, did the great sacrifice and give up Uskub, whose population is Bulgarian
Quote:
The writer who has frequently visited Monastir, can add his to mony to these pronouncements. The population of Monastir is Turkish, Bulgarian and Vlach
"The Quarterly Review" Published 1872, J. Murray
Quote:
Istambul, August 15, 1903:
SIR,
The political situation in Macedonia continues to grow worse each week.[...]
The real foundation for all the trouble is the desire of the BULGARIAN
population for freedom from Turkish rule, and were the powers to say to Bulgaria what they have already said to Turkey, "that under no conditions
would she be permitted to take one foot on additional soil", the trouble
would be speedily ended , but this they will not do, and consequently the
twentieth century crusade against the Turks is likely to go on, as no power,
not excepting Germany, is to brave public opinion openly taking sides with
the Turks against the Christians".
Quote:
September 19, 1903:
"The Bulgarian government is in most delicate position.... and unless the
powers should intervene Bulgaria will be forced openly to embrace the
Macedonian cause. ... I am quite of the opinion that the people in Bulgaria
will revolt against the government unless something be done..." writes the
American ambassador at the Porte, Leishman
John G. Leishman, US Ambassador to the Sublime Porte (serving 1900 - 1908)
to John Hay, American Secretary of State.Source: U.S. Deaprtment of State.
Diplomatic Despatches. Despatches from U.S. Ministers to Turkey, 1818 -
1906. National Archives Publications, M46, Roll 72, July 5 - October 29,
1903.
Quote:
The name ANTES suggest this people was intermixed with Iranians, and linguists point to a large number of Iranian loanwords in Slavic that were acquired very early. This would not be surpsising if the Slavs came from Ukraine because they would have had contact with both Iranian Scythians and Sarmatians. Indeed the Sarmatians were still to be found in Backa and the Banat near the Danybe at the time Slavs arrived there.
"The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century" By John Van Antwerp Fine, page 26
Quote:
Most of the Balkans were settled by Slavs of one of the two types. (excluding the smaller groups of Slavic Slovenes and Turkic Avars in the western Balkans). Each one of these two main Slavic groups was to be named for a second conquering group who appeared later in te Seventh century.
The first of these two groups was the Bulgaro-Macedonians, whose Slavic component the Bulgarian historian Zlatarski derives from the Antes. They were conquered in the late seventh century by the Turkic Bulgars. The slavs eventually assimilated them, but the Bulgars' name survived.
"The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century" By John Van Antwerp Fine, page 36
Quote:
Until the late nineteenth century both outside observers and those Bulgaro-Macedonians who had an ethnic consiousness believed that their group, which is NOW two seperate nationalities, comprised a SINGLE people, THE BULGARIANS. Thus the reader should IGNORE references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle Ages which appear in some modern works. In the Middle Ages and into the nineteenth century, the term 'Macedonian' was used ENTIRELY in reference to a geographical region. Anyone who lived within its confines, regardless of nationality could be called a Macedonian.
"The Early Medieval Balkans: a critical survey from the sixth to the late twelfth century" By John Van Antwerp Fine, Page 37
Quote:
It is the national identity of these Slav Macedonians that has been the most violently contested aspect of the whole Macedonian dispute, and is still being contested today. There is NO DOUBT that they are southern Slavs; they have a language, or a group of varying dialects, that is grammatically akin to Bulgarian but phonetically in some respects akin to Serbian, and which has certain quite distinctive features of its own.
[Elisabeth Barker, "Macedonia, its place in Balkan power politics",
(originally published in 1950 by the Royal Institute of International Affairs), p.10]
Quote:
In regard to their own national feelings, all that can SAFELY be said is that during the last eighty years many MORE Slav Macedonians seem to have considered themselves Bulgarian, or closely linked to Bulgaria, than have considered themselves Serbian, or closely linked to Serbia (or Yugoslavia). Only the people of the Skoplje region, in the north west, have ever shown much tendency to regard themselves as Serbs. The feeling of being Macedonians, and nothiNg but Macedonians, seems to be a sentiment of fairly recent growth, and even today is not very deep-rooted.
[Elisabeth Barker, "Macedonia, its place in Balkan power politics",
(originally published in 1950 by the Royal Institute of International Affairs), p.10]
Quote:
May the heroic Serb people at last find the necessary moral force--and they have it, it dwells within them--to recognize spontaneously what has long and unanimously been recognized by history, science, and the national sentiment of the Macedonian population itself, which sees in the Bulgarians ITS BROTHERS in language and blood, and which has fought hand in hand with them for religion, life, and liberty.
[N.S. Derzhavin, "Bulgaro-Serb Relations and the Macedonian Question", (1918)]
Quote:
You seem to be afraid of Kimon Georgiev, you have involved yourselves too much with him and do not want to give autonomy to Pirin Macedonia. That a Macedonian consciousness HAS NOT YET DEVELOPED AMONG THE POPULATION IS OF NO ACCOUNT. No such consciousness existed in Byelorussia either when we proclaimed it a Soviet Republic. However, later it was shown that a Byelorussian people did in fact exist.
[Stalin to Bulgarian Delegation (G. Dimitrov, V. Korarov, T. Kostov) on 7 June 1946]
Quote:
It should be remembered, to begin with, that there is NO Macedonian race, as a distinct type. Macedonians may belong to any of the races of Eastern Europe or Western Asia, as, indeed, they do. A Macedonian Bulgar is just the same as a Bulgar of Bulgaria proper, the old principality, that in October, 1908, at Tirnova, was proclaimed independent of Turkey. He looks the same, talks the same, and very largely, thinks the same way. IN SHORT HE IS OF THE SAME STOCK. There is no difference, whatsoever, between the two branches of the race, except that the Macedonian Bulgars, as a result of their position under the Turkish government, have less culture and education than their northern brethren.
[Arthur Douglas Howden Smith, "Fighting the Turk in the Balkans: An American's Adventures with the Macedonian Revolutionists", 1908, p. 4-5]
Quote:
In general, however, the Macedonian Slavs differ somewhat both in appearance and character from their neighbours beyond the Bulgarian and Servian frontiers: the peculiar type which they present is probably due to a considerable admixture of Vlach, Hellenic, Albanian and Turkish blood, and to the influence of the surrounding races. Almost all independent authorities,however, agree that the bulk of the Slavonic population of Macedonia IS BULGARIAN. The principal indication is furnished by the language, which, though resembling Servian in some respects (e.g. the case-endings, which are occasionally retained), presents most of the characteristic features of Bulgarian.
[The 1911 Edition Encyclopedia](found this online but cant remember the link, sorry)
Quote:
Modern turkish histories present the idea that the macedonian question was the essential ingredient in understanding the volatile mix of problems that ultimately led to Balkan wars. Because the population of Macedonia was primarily Bulgarian, it was influenced heavily by the events of 1878. It is very likely that the establishment of the greater Bulgaria envisioned by the treaty of San Stefano, and which included much of Macedonia whetted the nationalistic appetites of a substantial portion of the Bulgarian population of Macedonia.
"Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912-1913" By Edward J. Erickson, page 39
Quote:
In Sofia, Bulgarians organized the Adrianople Region- MAcedonia Committee in 1890, and in Salonika, the internal Macedonian Revolutionary committee and Organization was formed in 1893.
"Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912-1913" By Edward J. Erickson, page 42
IT IS THEREFORE NO LONGER NECESSARY TO DEMONSTRATE THE MYTHICAL CHARACTER OF THE "MACEDONIAN" nationality in the eyes of every element in the Macedonian population.
Allen Upward, "The East End of Europe", London 1908, pp 25-27
Quote:
And so the "Bulgarophone" villagers are no longer willing to admit they speak Bulgarian. They have coined a NEW term of their own accord, and henceforth, until they have got rid of it, is to be known as "Macedonian". My Athenian friends were delighted when I told them of this on my return. It should give even greater pleasure to those Bulgarian agents who are SO ANXIOUS TO SEE THE MACEDONIANS TAUGHT THEY ARE MACEDONIANS
Allen Upward, "The East End of Europe", London 1908, pp 205
Quote:
The origin of the Macedonian dispute the south-east half of Slav Macedonia where the population was most nearly Bulgarian
"The New Macedonian Question" (St. Antony's) by James Pettifer, page 12
Quote:
Where an overaching identity existed among Slavs in Macedonia, it was a Bulgarian one UNTIL at least the 1860s. The cultural impetus for a seperated Macedonian identity would only emerge LATER
"Outcast Europe" BY Tom Gallagher, page 47
Quote:
..descendant of Samuil, collected an army and took the chief Bulgarian town, Skopje, and soon came to dominate Thrace, Epirus and Macedonia
"A Concise History of Bulgaria (Cambridge Concise Histories)" by R. J. Crampton, page 23
Quote:
Among the Bulgarians of Prilep, after the ceremony in church is over, one of the brothers entertains his relatives..
"Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics", Part 4 by James Hastings, page 79
Quote:
Monastir is an undistinguished, motley sort of town of some 60,000 nhabitants, 14,000 of them Greek, 10,000 of them Bulgarian, four or five thousand Albanian, two or three thousand Jew, and the rest Turk.
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), chapter 20.
Quote:
But who are the Macedonians? You will find Bulgarians and Turks who call themselves Macedonians, you find Greek Macedonians, there are Servian Macedonians, and it is possible to find Roumanian Macedonians. You will NOT, however, find a single Christian Macedonian who is not a Servian, a Bulgarian, a Greek, or a Roumanian. They all curse the Turk, and they love Macedonia. But it is Greek Macedonia, or Bulgarian Macedonia, and their eyes flame with passion, whilst their fingers seek the triggers of their guns
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), PAGE 5
Quote:
They visited the Bulgarian villages, levied contributions, and stored arms, so that on an appointed day there might be a rising against the Turk, and Bulgarian Macedonians be liberated from their oppressors for ever. Naturally they were greeted as heroes;
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), PAGE 8
Quote:
i have some hope that in years to come the inhabitants will think less of their Turkish, Bulgarian or Greek Origin and a great deal more with the fact that they are all Macedonians.
"Pictures From The Balkans" by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), PAGE 17
Quote:
I hope you are not making any racial distinctions between Bulgars and Macedonians. I believe the Bulgars who have come from Macedonia are registered on Ellis Island as Macedonians, which is bound to be confusing and inaccurate, for Macedonians may include Greeks, Vlachs, and even Turks. The distinction between the Bulgars from Bulgaria and those from Macedonia is PURELY political. Many of those who are registered as Greeks are so in church affiliation only, being Slavic by race and tongue.
"Our Slavic Fellow Citizens" By Emily Greene Balch pp 274-275
Quote:
It is very interesting to compare together the different inhabitants of European Turkey, such as the Servians, the Bulgarians, the Wallachians, the Greeks, and the Albanians. The Servians and Bulgarians may be said to be nearly the same people, and appear to be more numerous than the Greeks;
"The Edinburgh New Philosophical Journal: exhibiting a view of the Progressive discoveries.." Published 1838
by A. and C. Black - Original from the New York Public Library - p.240
Quote:
The language of these various populations divides itself into two principal idioms: each of these into three where the difference is less. Of the Southern dialect are the Slovaks, the Serbs and Bulgarians; of the Northern, the Bohemians, Poles, and Russians.
"Vacation Tourists and Notes of Travel in 1860" By Francis Galton Published 1861 Macmillan and co. Original from the University of Michigan, page 108
Please point out one book that was written by a Greek writer.
Aleksandar is now silenced!... Of course.. it is too easy to say to others "open a history book" when you know that there is not one history book that can support your views.
Don't expect comments on your quotes. Aleksandar and his compatriots base their whole idenity in twisting history and claiming someone else's history and culture as their own.
Thanks for the time you spend, to answer to all these propagandists. We are not that many doing so...
I am happy to tell both nikitas and pavlos that ALEKSANDAR is not silenced and never will be by your misleading statements. As I said in my previous statement, you will try to invalidate anything that does not have a greek twist to or that does not support the greek version. Also because the United States is not on your side, you want to discredit any country that is supported or recognized by her. Once again, it is not only one country that has the same view as the U.S. To you both, all the nations in the world that share the same view of history as in the case of MAKEDONIA, they don't know what they are talking about. You both should realize that you are not the only ones that have a knowledge of history(especially greek twisted propaganda). I said in my previous statement that you would try to claim the example I gave is not valid, true or false in some way. You have proven that. YOU BOTH HAVE TO REALIZE THAT EVERYONE DOESN'T BELIEVE YOUR GREEK PROPAGANDA. Whether I give you one example or a thousand, you will try to do the same. In any case I will suggest to both of you to look up anything on the Roman Empire and see if you learn something new. It is clear though, that you will not accept anything but your narrow minded greek teachings. In some way I can understand why you will not accept new and true information.
NEVER silenced, especially by FALSE PROPAGANDA.
"Happy learning".
Pavlos,
I would kindly like to refer you to comments #7 and #8. Please read them again and decide for yourself who it is that steals something and twists it to make it look like their own. Are you both going to deny that happened too? If so, that must be the same way you deny everything said that doesn't have a greek twist to it, EVEN THOUGH YOU SEE IT WITH YOUR OWN EYES. What's next, your denial of all the other nations that recognize and acknowledge views that don't agree with greece? They probably don't exist either do they? Take your blinders off.
@26
You really are something unbelievable.
I am sure you didnt bother to read any of what I posted. Otherwise you could see that none of it is from Greek books, Greek related sources or Greek writers.
Everything is from foreigners that made research on the issue.
Unfortunately, the word "history" and "research" applies only to what you like and you are fed with.
Nikitas,
I would like to correct you again. I am very believable. I bring out the side which you fail to acknowledge as possible truth. You, on the other hand, try to discredit everything that doesn't agree with your version. You even try to discredit other nations because they don't agree with your knowledge of history(although limited to one side). You must realize that you can't discredit the world because they don't agree with you. You only bring opinions that defend the greek side. You are either unable or unwilling to find statements which counter the greek side. You must realize that you have to look at all the information available and then you are able to find the truth. You cannot deny ones existence based on a one sided opinion. Everything you have presented has one side to it, greek. All the writers you refer to don't have to have greek names to have a greek sided opinion. And yes, I have read all of your comments. Just because I haven't responded in an hour or less does not mean I have been silenced as your freind says. I have repeatedly asked you both to take your blinders off but you have both failed to do so. In some ways, I feel sorry for you both because you both have failed to learn more about a subject which you are so passionate about.
"Happy learnig", but only if you want to learn the real truth of course.
Nikitas,
It seems that your supporter Pavlos is silenced after posed with the previous question. I do encourage him to answer it however.
Athough you both fail to use my name, it does not mean I do not exist or am silent.
I would also recommend that you too read some of your quotes.
Although I am sure you will try to discredit what am writing, I ask that you realize I am refering you to your own quotes.
In one, the question is asked "Who are the Macedonians?" Allow me to clarify your own quote. It refers to greek, serb, and bulgarian Macedonia. In case you wonder why there are three, I will gladly clarify for you. The country of Macedonia was under the cloak of the Ottoman Empire until the fall of that Empire in the early 1900's.(a nearly 600 year period which even the Ottomans acknowledge) That would be present day Turkey of which I know you both are huge fans.
That country of Macedonia (which had nothing to do with greece since greece is a whole other land) was partitioned into 3 parts Serb, Bulgarian, and of course greek. The greeks optained the largest portion which happens to be the land they(greeks) claim was theirs since ancient history. I do not claim to know greek math, however, it is unclear to me how the greeks can claim a period of less than 100 years can be ancient history. It must be that wealth of knowledge of math as well as history. I do not mean this as an insult, I merely bring out the flaws in your claims.
The other questions I have refers to your quote about the Ottomans in 1912-1913.
Which Macedonia does it refer to? Is it the Serb portion, the Bulgarian portion , or is it the greek portion? You obviously know by now that there are three.
You also fail to bring out that the Macedonian people were deceived in thinking that they were fighting the Ottomans for the re-unification of their land(THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA).
You too should read the quotes you bring and view them as other people might. That is the only way you will find the truth. You should also bring the complete qoute and not just the portion that supports your stance.
I would also like to add that present day REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA has NEVER claimed to seek a re-unification with neither the Bulgarian portion or the greek portion. Those claims are made ONLY by greeks who very well know that what I have just stated concerning the partition in the early 1900's is nothing short of the TRUTH AND THE WHOLE TRUTH. They (greeks) are merely displaying FEAR that there may a time in the future a re-unification may by sought. They are trying to elimnate that unlikely chance however small it may be.
If, however, that portion of land was always greek land inhabited by greek populous as they claim. Then what do the greeks have to fear? AGAIN I ASK "WHAT DO THE GREEKS HAVE TO FEAR"?
Is it possible that what the greeks claim is NOT TRUE?
In case your are unaware of it, that was the reason that the present day REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA changed their constitution and flag. To try to satisfy and eliminate the greek fear. As we have seen, that is not enough for them. If true history is as they claim(the greeks),then they have nothing to fear.
You both can try to discredit all that I write but remember that "YOU CAN NEVER SILENCE TRUTH".
I encourage you both to put your fears aside and learn more than just one sided history.
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