I just added an automatic sequence to my web browser which modifies the page using JavaScript to strip out any post that has the letters "icj1"
It's as if icj1 does not exist.
Bye-bye.
(factman, 18 January 2016 16:59)
I totally agree that is the best course of action since there are few claims you make, if any, that you can substantiate with any evidence other than because factman said so!
I know these people better than you.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
Really?! You know the people I spoke to better than me?! Do you even know who those people are?! As I predicted, this is becoming very entertaining :)
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I know more of them than you.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
Really?! How many of them do you know? And how can you make the statement above without knowing how many of them I know?! hahaha
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I speak the language and you don't.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
I spoke with those people in a language that both me and them understood. How do you know that was not the case, unless you were one of them?! lol
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I understand the mentality and you don't.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
I certainly don't understand your mentality! There you absolutely do have a point. I think we would find few people understanding your mentality!
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The only predictable thing here is that you rarely have anything intelligent to say.
Argumentative. Lacking in substance. Intellectually corrupt.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
I applied the methodology of a certain "factman" to create facts. If that methodology is not intelligent, lacks substance and is intellectually corrupt, please feel free to direct your concerns to that certain "factman".
ICJ: I believe Factman is disputing whether or not you actually asked anyone from the RS these questions. The clue is in the words "you lie" as opposed to "they are lying".
(ned taylor, 17 January 2016 16:02)
Well, our dear friend factman is saying and disputing many things but his/her only evidence is because factman said so :) So I'm just entertaining myself for a bit using factman's method for creating facts lol
ICJ: I believe Factman is disputing whether or not you actually asked anyone from the RS these questions. The clue is in the words "you lie" as opposed to "they are lying".
Ask the typical person in Serbia or RS or immigrant from those places to any other country and they'll tell you no different than what I wrote above.
(factman, 14 January 2016 16:10)
I followed your advice and I asked people from Serbia and RS and they told me that what you are saying about Serbs is BS!
(icj1, 14 January 2016 21:39)
###
You lie.
(factman, 16 January 2016 04:22)
You are so predictable mate; precisely the answer that I expected hahaha
So, now please entertain the forum explaining why what people tell you is the truth, but what they tell to other member of these forums is a lie! What makes you and/or the people you speak with so special?! :)
To icj: You win the award for the most boring, mundane
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Well, in case you failed to notice, this is not the website of Britain got talent, American Idol or something like that lol. So thanks for the award and certainly I appreciate that over some other people winning awards for stating lies!
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I like to read your comments late at night because they never fail to put me to sleep.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Good, thanks for reading them :)
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With that said, allow me to answer your latest meaningless question to me.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Not sure what answering a meaningless question means! If something has no meaning, than there is nothing for you to answer. But if something has a meaning, than yes you have something to answer, if you wish. You have to pick which part of what you wrote is correct!
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The Helsinki Accords prohibited the changing of borders by force for the signors of the agreement.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Oh, ok. Assuming that is the case, who was this signor that changed borders by force?
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Please don't respond. I may fell compelled to answer another of your senseless questions and lose another 5 minutes of my life that I'll never get back.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
That's funny. You not only want to write BS, but you want to also prevent others from pointing it out!
Njegos: One, I was not referring to the "current form" of BiH but to its borders. Two, I did not imply that because it has been around for centuries it should not be broken up, I was making the point that to refer to BiH as an artificial creation when defending the RS was a bit rich. Whatever form of BiH that can be agreed by the all constituent peoples, without recourse to another conflict, would satisfy those sitting on the PIC. I have plenty of hobbies but your interest in my spiritual and pastoral wellbeing is much appreciated and heart-warming.
Ned - I would only add a few things to jugoslavia's accurate rebuttal of your implication that because Bosnia has existed for centuries, the country as we know it today should remain intact. B-H in its current form has existed since 1995. It was created by foreigners who don't live there. Two of the three ethnic groups want to unite with their mother countries, Serbia and Croatia. The Muslims (an ethnic group only in B-H) want to preserve the current structure because they will be surrounded by enemies and will be reduced to a footnote in Balkan history. They should have though about this reality before Izetbegovic reneged on the Lisbon agreement to partition B-H into ethnic cantons. He was power hungry and was grossly misled by the US. You reap what you sow.
Your noble efforts to try to keep this 20 year bad experiment intact is wasted energy. The hatred on all sides runs too deep. Give it up and go find a hobby.
To icj: You win the award for the most boring, mundane and meaningless posts on this forum. I like to read your comments late at night because they never fail to put me to sleep. With that said, allow me to answer your latest meaningless question to me. The Helsinki Accords prohibited the changing of borders by force for the signors of the agreement. The premature recognition and illegal secession of B-H contributed to the dismemberment of Yugoslavia in which people on all sides lost their lives and property.
Please don't respond. I may fell compelled to answer another of your senseless questions and lose another 5 minutes of my life that I'll never get back.
You see, one cannot be as literal as you are in life. One needs to read between the lines. You must be a lot of fun at social gatherings, right?
(factman, 14 January 2016 16:10)
Got it. You are correct in that case. I thought you were referring to a draft resolution the UNSC voted on, not a discussion of your halucinations over a few drinks at a bar. Sorry for the misunderstanding lol
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Ask the typical person in Serbia or RS or immigrant from those places to any other country and they'll tell you no different than what I wrote above.
(factman, 14 January 2016 16:10)
I followed your advice and I asked people from Serbia and RS and they told me that what you are saying about Serbs is BS!
Njegos: My eyes don't need opening; I've been to Mostar more than 30 times and know the situation there very well. It's rich to argue that BiH is an artificial creation given that it has existed within its current borders for centuries whereas the RS has been around since 1992.
(ned taylor, 14 January 2016 11:02)
You didn't answer the question, there are no Serbs left in Mostar because they were ethnically cleansed. B&H is an artificial creation and never existed in it's current borders. You should educate yourself, the current borders of Bosnia-Herzegovina was created by Djilas and Tito and has not been there for centuries. Under the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, various borders were created from Banovina's to Oblasts. Yes, there were Bosnian and Herzegovina kingdoms which were composed of Serbian and Croatian Kings, King Tvrtko, Kotromanovici dynasty, etc. The Kings of Rascia, Nemanaci dynasty were Serbian Kings!
Bosnian Herzegovina failed to survive in Austro-Hungary, failed to survive in Yugoslavia and is doomed to failure under a Bosnian Federation.
Here you are acting like some expert and telling Serbians and Croatians what Bosnia is. Bosnian Serbians celebrate Slava just like Serbians, that should tell you something that they are Serbians not Bosnians. The same for Montenegrins and many so called "Macedonians". Until you understand the history of the region, you have no authority to speak on what Bosnia is and was.
Was this a draft resolution introduced by you or Dodik, because I could not find any other draft resolution saying "A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity"?!
#####
I believe you skipped over the part where I wrote that the UK is well practiced in the art of subterfuge.
subterfuge: deceit used in order to achieve one's goal.
synonyms: trickery · intrigue · deviousness · deceit · deception
You see, one cannot be as literal as you are in life. One needs to read between the lines. You must be a lot of fun at social gatherings, right?
Anyway, due to this foreign capital subterfuge, the default position of Serbs = skepticism, suspicion, and contrariness ("inat").
And why shouldn't it be those things after all the support and love that foreign capitals have shown Serbs over the centuries
Ask the typical person in Serbia or RS or immigrant from those places to any other country and they'll tell you no different than what I wrote above.
That vote was intended to serve as cover to dismantle Dayton by saying: A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity.
(factman, 13 January 2016 15:43)
Was this a draft resolution introduced by you or Dodik, because I could not find any other draft resolution saying "A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity"?!
So why do they want Bosnia to remain whole? What makes Bosnia so special?
(Peggy, 13 January 2016 23:18)
Issue in Bosnia is that RS holds 49% of territory won when they had military advantage ( all in Bosnia committed crimes not blaming RS); RS referendum will start another war RS within hours or Days will be split in 2 parts by Croatian and Bosnian Army. This time Serbia wont be allowed to help much more than volunteers and small arms going to RS, EU does not want another embarrassment of 1990s repeated in Balkans, Russia wont be able to help it can not corss NATO Airspace to get to help Bosnian Serbs so it will be a nightmare.
If this happens Bosnia will be filled with even more Arab Ninjas and it will be a worst nightmare for EU, so they want to contain the problem or break RS slowlly with help of mother Serbia to allow this change in Bosnia maybe not in next 10 years but in 20 or 30 with new generation of politicians far removed form war.
Njegos: My eyes don't need opening; I've been to Mostar more than 30 times and know the situation there very well. It's rich to argue that BiH is an artificial creation given that it has existed within its current borders for centuries whereas the RS has been around since 1992.
Peggy: Firstly, it is clear that "the world" doesn't feel obliged to explain why Bosnia is "more precious" than Yugoslavia was. Secondly, whatever explanation they offered to you would be rejected because you have already decided how you feel and they aren't going to change your mind. I'm sure you know the story about 'aggressors' and 'victims' of the conflict and whatever you feel about it, that is the best you are going to get from those running BiH through the PIC. I would like to see the issue of right of return (or compensation) to be properly addressed on all sides before any discussion is held about the future composition of BiH. In all countries we need to promote the idea of tolerance of others, not give that impression that if you simply don't like those around you, you can create your own state; where would this end? No-one is persecuting the people in the RS, the excuse used in Kosovo and the Crimea for their declarations of independence, and there is no groundswell of opinion for independence or marches/protest movements demanding such. The momentum is all coming from the top in the form of Dodik himself who fancies the idea of being a dictator in the Putin/Lukashenko mould.
From Momcilo: "it is a fact that the serbs wanted war and bosniaks did not, it is a fact that the serbs started it, it is a fact that serbs tried to create greater serbia and failed,..."
WRONG on all counts Momo. In March of '92 Izetbegovic, Karadzic (and the Croat rep whose name I forget) all signed the Lisbon agreement to partition B-H into ethnic cantons. Warren Zimmerman, US Ambassador to Yugoslavia then encouraged Izetbegovic to renege on the agreement because he said the US would support a unified Bosnia with Izetbegivic at the head. This, combined with violating the Yugoslav constitution and the Helsinki Accords by prematurely seceding, insured that there would be bloodshed.
If you break international law and put your belief in foreigners you put yourself and your people at great risk. That risk didn't pay off for the Muslims nor the Croats of B-H. Today the three ethnic groups live separately as initially set forth in the Lisbon agreement that Izetbegovic reneged on. Clearly, the death and destruction that occurred during the war could have been avoided had Izetbegovic lived up to his word. Soon B-H will disintegrate, the Serbs will unite with Serbia, the Croats with Croatia and the Muslims will become a footnote in Balkan history. You reap what you sow.
Ned, yes I was referring to the referendum on the constitutional court. The referendum on independence will follow in due time. You seem to be in favor of preserving the manufactured entity of B-H. Let it go man. Face the facts. The 3 ethnic groups want to live separately. Forcing people to live together doesn't work, and . by the way, is undemocratic.
Croats and Muslims were allies for a time during the war. Now they hate each other. A visit to Mostar will open your eyes where Muslims live on side of the city and Croats on the other. Oh, and by the way, the 20,000 Serbs that lived there before the war have been ethnically cleansed. Indeed, Mostar is a microcosm of the problems inherent in the whole of B-H. Forcing people to live together will only work for so long. However well intentioned your motives may be, your energy should be spent on something more realistic. Move on.
Now about who Serbs and the Serves. Serbian Njemanici Dynasty most likely was a branch of the ruling dynasty of the Great Horde. No nations existed before 17-18 centuries so Serbs were just a Slavic people with very little difference from other southern Slavs including the Russians in Ukraine. All the Sultans were Orthodox Slavs of the Komnin/Rurikovici dynasty and at least Mehmet-II and Suleiman the Magnificent spoke old Serbian. Mehmet-II had Serbian mother and wife Mara. Words TURK and TURKIC were attached to this people only in 19 century. It’s a big mistake to think that the Ottoman empire started in Anatol because the cradle of the empire was the Balkans. And it was from the Balkans that Mehmed II Fatih stormed Constantinople in 1453. The thing is that since 1267 the city was already controlled by another branch of the Greek/Russian dynasty of the Komnin/Rurikovici. So the Slavs fought on both sides. It was natural that Mehmet kept the two headed symbol of their dynasty after the victory. It is what you call as Albanian flag. Most likely shqiptars were in Mehmet’s army. Since 13 century the eagle was the main symbol of the Horde and it survived only in the Ottoman empire while all the Catholics cut off the eastern heads in 17-18 centuries. As for the Serves it became possible because of the wrong interpretation of the Cyrillic letter "B" sounded both Latin B and V.
With all due respect to your 15 years of service, what you say is very true, but at the risk of sounding like some conspiracist, there are some actors who have notable track records operating outside of traditional IC activities in order to manufacture events that would be advantageous to their ultimate policy objectives down the road. One such actor is the UK. They have a robust history in the Balkans
If that sounds far fetched, then I ask what purpose did that vote intend to serve?
To bring about reconcilliation?
I don't think so
While they can't dismantle it outright, they can certainly plant seeds for a future when the environment is more conducive to dismantle (or create a chit to be redeemed later)
In the meantime, muddy them some more with bad press and keep the association between RS and Genocide in the headlines. it pays back great policy dividends over time
Or perhaps they did it to set right the historical record?
Why then such moral fervor to set that right when an event 7 times as large has not been acknowledged nor condemned? Anyone who attended Balkan 101 class would tell you that Serbs would shoot it down simply out of spite that 1941-45 remains unacknowledged.
What one resists will persist.
There is moral and ethical complicity by failing to acknowledge and it creates conditions for future conflict.... or at the least a deep well of suspicion (which everyone is now encountering).
Factman: I am surprised that you have bought into the theory about the dissolution of the RS. If, as you say, the IC wanted to use their view that the RS was formed on genocide in order to dissolve it, they would have tried to do so many years ago. What the IC wants is a stable two entity BiH where all sides accept the status quo and focus their efforts on improving the economy and the daily lives of its citizens rather than holding on to pipe dreams about changing Dayton unilaterally.
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Ned, it's funny how the world didn't want stability in Yugoslavia and encouraged and supported the breakup. Then the world didn't see any value in stability and territorial integrity of Serbia and encouraged and supported Albanians to go their own way all in the name of self government.
So why do they want Bosnia to remain whole? What makes Bosnia so special? Bosnia is really just mini Yugoslavia which has the same ethnic groups living in it and those groups can't get along.
So until "the world" can answer what makes Bosnia more precious than Yugoslavia or Serbia a break up of is necessary for future stability.
Milo has promised a referendum forever. You can dream to chase 10 percent of non-serbs that are left out of there and make it part of Srrbia or even an ethnically pure Serbian state, but that is what it will remain, a sick dream.
(mountainofwrath, 13 January 2016 15:41
===================================
Where do you get this rubbish from? Nobody would chase any non Serb out of RS even if it joined Serbia. There are plenty of minorities living in Serbia without any trouble unlike in Croatia or "Kosova". Serbs are the most multiethnic society there.
Stop with the lies.
The biggest mistake is that Balkan peoples associate the Osman empire with the Turks. Same as the Hungarians in Voivodina would symbolize Serbia or the Shqiptars will be associated with Greece. Yes in the Ottoman empire there lived some Turkic peoples but they made 5-10% of population and had almost zero influence before the 20-th century.
It was a multinational and multiconfessional empire with 4 main “milliats” – Muslim, Orthodox, Armenian and Jewish. They all were headed by their religious leaders and enjoyed full autonomy in most of the issues including languages, belief, taxes, education ect.
In 15-16 centuries the Orthodox milliet called Halk-i Rum (People OF Rome) used mostly old Serbian language also called Slovenski. It was different from the current language developed by Vuk Karadic but it is close to the language used in the churches now. In Russia this language was known as сербский извод церковно-славянского языка.
Yet since 17 century Greek language became dominant inside the Halk-i Rum milliet plus it became diplomatic language of the empire. So all the international treaties of the Ottomans in 17-20 centuries were composed in Greek. Also since 15 century the milliet was headed by a Greek Patriarch.
Thus before early 19 century there was no discrimination of the Orthodox peoples or of any other. I can tell about other milliets and the minorities that could not form a milliet of their own. Turkic peoples were among them.
Their gens are more then 35 percent turkish ....anyways all this can be confirmed
(Svi.te.vi. Bosanci.., 13 January 2016 13:35)
------------------
Here's another confirmation for you. You're an idiot.
It's nice to see that somebody in B&H is thinking with more that half a brain and speaking out of just one face instead of two or three. As usual both B&H and FB&H are silent.
hi Momcilo siptarovic....all those facts you state are not facts at all, they are your opinions, nothing more.
Not for one second do I deny that the Serbian side commited atrocious acts, but I also know that the muslims did exactly the same. You can't have it both ways, the muslims didn't want to be part of Yugoslavia anymore, fine. but serbians that have owned and lived on their land for generations don't want to be a part of bosnia. they own nearly half the land and they will leave eventually trust me. no Christian wants to live under muslim rule.
Oh and this is for impartial observers on the site...there is no such name as momcilo siptarovic in any of the former republics, the guy uses it as an insult...the first bit (momcilo) is a Dalmatian Serb first name, here he is alluding to what happened in Krajina.
the second part (Siptarovic) basically alludes to Kosovo since Siptar is what Serbs call Albanians, the ic thrown at the end makes no sense whatsoever and the whole name is fake, the guy just wants to provoke.
dude I come from Tuzla, to mixed parents. don't tell me what happened or didn't happen there. I already know.
Factman: I am surprised that you have bought into the theory about the dissolution of the RS. If, as you say, the IC wanted to use their view that the RS was formed on genocide in order to dissolve it, they would have tried to do so many years ago. What the IC wants is a stable two entity BiH where all sides accept the status quo and focus their efforts on improving the economy and the daily lives of its citizens rather than holding on to pipe dreams about changing Dayton unilaterally. You credit world powers with a far greater interest in Bosnia than is the case (other than concerns about returning ISIS fighters). I cannot vouch for the personal views of every international representative resident in BiH but I can tell you that there are no plans, neither have there been at any time while I have been advising the IC in Sarajevo, some 15 years, to change Dayton other than with the consent of all parties. Whatever all the sides agree will be accepted as without such agreement there is no chance that any changes will be sustainable. Dodik likes to huff and puff and sees the RS as his personal fiefdom. Who ever hears about the Prime Minister any more now that Dodik doesn't have that role and who ever heard from the President when it wasn't MD? Until he has been voted out of office (he will never be removed)there will be constant conflict both with OHR and between the entities. Dodik loves these confrontations, they are what get him out of bed each day.
I've just read Ari's last paragraph and very worryingly find that I agree wholeheartedly. Most IC players have a very similar view despite what you might read on here.
Tensions are running high on this thread. Dodik is simply saying what most of the 1.4 million Serbs west of the Drina river feel. Their affinity is and will always be for Serbia.
Less than 75 years ago, Bosnian Serbs were being slaughtered in the hundreds of thousands by the Nazi Ustasha regime. But then Yugoslavia was again the big compromise. They got to live in the same state with Serbia. And when the Muslims in Bosnia wanted independence from Yugoslavia, the Serbs naturally wanted their own institutions to protect their survival. Perfectly legitimate. Truth is the Bosnian Muslims should not have left Yugoslavia, and certainly not as a unitary republic when there are 3 constituent groups in Bosnia. These were grounds for war.
But for peace to be maintained, the best solution is to stick to the original Dayton agreement. Which keeps Bosnia together but also like it or not allows RS to operate as an autonomous republic.
f you use bosniak then why not use serb language? Oh and as a final note, you are free to leave bosnia whenever, including the parts you occupied with genocide
(Momcilo Siptarovic, 13 January 2016 15:46) # C
Nobody speaks Bosnian in Bosnia except Turks who think it's a language. You can thank Tito for creating a "Muslim Nationality' no where in the world is there such a thing as "Muslim" nationality. The Bulgarians and Germans were smart enough to label them as Turks Not Bavarians, Prussians, etc. You are nothing but Turks, if you want to be Turks, go follow your war criminal Haris Siladjic who bombed his own citizens for US intervention and now is with the Erdogan dictatorship in Turkey.
Milo has promised a referendum forever. You can dream to chase 10 percent of non-serbs that are left out of there and make it part of Srrbia or even an ethnically pure Serbian state, but that is what it will remain, a sick dream.
The failed attempt to pass the genocide resolution initiated by the British was the clearest indicator that the ultimate plan was to dismantle RS by passing a genocide vote in the UNSC. In the article, Dodik touched upon this effort led by the Brits.
That vote was intended to serve as cover to dismantle Dayton by saying: A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity.
Much is made of the 100k dead (from all 3 sidesof this Bosnian Civil War) and much should be made of it "so that it never happens again." Indeed, it should never happen again.
Meanwhile, all are silent about the real genocide committed in WW2 against 600k Serbs, Gypsies, and Jews in Bosnia and Croatia. This is the 75th Anniversary of the beginning of those events.
When will that be "officially" acknowleged with the same fervor and moral authority?
When will the memories and voices of those victims be heard or even acknowledged?
When will those events officially be brought into the historical record so that "it never happens again?"
For njegos, it is a fact that the serbs wanted war and bosniaks did not, it is a fact that the serbs started it, it is a fact that serbs tried to create greater serbia and failed, it is a fact RS was rewardedto you from the weat otherwisr it would be in hell with RSK, it is a fact that bosnia not only didn't have western military aid but an arms embargo on it, it is a fact that serbs lost in all definitions of it, lying to yourself like Dobrica Cosic told you to will not change anything.
And as for dodik, it is a fact that bosnian did not start in 1995 there is proof of that everywhere, and chances are Bosnian is the language you speak, oldest dictionary, state charter, stone attestation, etc. if you use bosniak then why not use serb language? Oh and as a final note, you are free to leave bosnia whenever, including the parts you occupied with genocide
Njegos: I am not sure which referendum you are referring to. There may be one about the role of the Constitutional Court but there won't be the one that Dodik promised in 2006 about RS independence, which is the one he most wants to hold but cannot do so because he has no support for this. He likes being the big kuhana in a small sea otherwise he could already have left the country in which he "has to live" and gone to his expensive flat in Belgrade and a small role in Serb politics there.
To goodbuytubby: Read the article again, there will be a referendum. And for all intents and purposes, RS is independent. And if you look at the fact that 33% of the B-H population control 49% of the territory, you can make the case that a Greater Serbia exists. But don't blame the Serbs for that. This is a consequence of the Muslim ad Croat policies of trying to create greater entities of their own with western military backing. It didn't work and the Serbs came out on top in B-H. Too bad. Blame your gullible leaders who lead you to war and lost. Just ask Lenny the Loser whose family can't go back to their home in what is now the RS. Serbs never wanted war. Muslims and Croats did. Quit crying. You reap what you sow.
This bloke , am so over him and his point less politics .... Bosnia has been around longer... The language u Serbian people speak is bosnian... Serbian r Iranian so are Croatian ... This is proven throw their jeans... Also in Iran the have rivers where these tripes came from ... Lol these people r so stupit like like who their leader is... They killed normal people who just lived normal life's n that's their republic ... That's embarrassing .... For. Serbs servia.....and they dare to hate Turks but if it wasn't for the Turk they wouldn't be here today ... 1863 use changed ur name from servia and stole the Russian flag and the Albanian eagle... Made up... Ohhhh and ur language so called where did u guys get that from..... Bosnian n changed it to Russian letters lol..... I feel sorry for these people and am angry why nothing is been done .. They r not much of men either ... ask their women ... Their gens are more then 35 percent turkish ....anyways all this can be confirmed
In other words: no referendum, no independence, no 'union' with big brother and last but not least, no Velika Srbija. This is just a silver tongue way for him to say that no changes to the status quo. He is very lucky that his voters aren't that bright.
The failed attempt to pass the genocide resolution initiated by the British was the clearest indicator that the ultimate plan was to dismantle RS by passing a genocide vote in the UNSC. In the article, Dodik touched upon this effort led by the Brits.
That vote was intended to serve as cover to dismantle Dayton by saying: A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity.
Much is made of the 100k dead (from all 3 sidesof this Bosnian Civil War) and much should be made of it "so that it never happens again." Indeed, it should never happen again.
Meanwhile, all are silent about the real genocide committed in WW2 against 600k Serbs, Gypsies, and Jews in Bosnia and Croatia. This is the 75th Anniversary of the beginning of those events.
When will that be "officially" acknowleged with the same fervor and moral authority?
When will the memories and voices of those victims be heard or even acknowledged?
When will those events officially be brought into the historical record so that "it never happens again?"
To goodbuytubby: Read the article again, there will be a referendum. And for all intents and purposes, RS is independent. And if you look at the fact that 33% of the B-H population control 49% of the territory, you can make the case that a Greater Serbia exists. But don't blame the Serbs for that. This is a consequence of the Muslim ad Croat policies of trying to create greater entities of their own with western military backing. It didn't work and the Serbs came out on top in B-H. Too bad. Blame your gullible leaders who lead you to war and lost. Just ask Lenny the Loser whose family can't go back to their home in what is now the RS. Serbs never wanted war. Muslims and Croats did. Quit crying. You reap what you sow.
f you use bosniak then why not use serb language? Oh and as a final note, you are free to leave bosnia whenever, including the parts you occupied with genocide
(Momcilo Siptarovic, 13 January 2016 15:46) # C
Nobody speaks Bosnian in Bosnia except Turks who think it's a language. You can thank Tito for creating a "Muslim Nationality' no where in the world is there such a thing as "Muslim" nationality. The Bulgarians and Germans were smart enough to label them as Turks Not Bavarians, Prussians, etc. You are nothing but Turks, if you want to be Turks, go follow your war criminal Haris Siladjic who bombed his own citizens for US intervention and now is with the Erdogan dictatorship in Turkey.
This bloke , am so over him and his point less politics .... Bosnia has been around longer... The language u Serbian people speak is bosnian... Serbian r Iranian so are Croatian ... This is proven throw their jeans... Also in Iran the have rivers where these tripes came from ... Lol these people r so stupit like like who their leader is... They killed normal people who just lived normal life's n that's their republic ... That's embarrassing .... For. Serbs servia.....and they dare to hate Turks but if it wasn't for the Turk they wouldn't be here today ... 1863 use changed ur name from servia and stole the Russian flag and the Albanian eagle... Made up... Ohhhh and ur language so called where did u guys get that from..... Bosnian n changed it to Russian letters lol..... I feel sorry for these people and am angry why nothing is been done .. They r not much of men either ... ask their women ... Their gens are more then 35 percent turkish ....anyways all this can be confirmed
Njegos: I am not sure which referendum you are referring to. There may be one about the role of the Constitutional Court but there won't be the one that Dodik promised in 2006 about RS independence, which is the one he most wants to hold but cannot do so because he has no support for this. He likes being the big kuhana in a small sea otherwise he could already have left the country in which he "has to live" and gone to his expensive flat in Belgrade and a small role in Serb politics there.
For njegos, it is a fact that the serbs wanted war and bosniaks did not, it is a fact that the serbs started it, it is a fact that serbs tried to create greater serbia and failed, it is a fact RS was rewardedto you from the weat otherwisr it would be in hell with RSK, it is a fact that bosnia not only didn't have western military aid but an arms embargo on it, it is a fact that serbs lost in all definitions of it, lying to yourself like Dobrica Cosic told you to will not change anything.
And as for dodik, it is a fact that bosnian did not start in 1995 there is proof of that everywhere, and chances are Bosnian is the language you speak, oldest dictionary, state charter, stone attestation, etc. if you use bosniak then why not use serb language? Oh and as a final note, you are free to leave bosnia whenever, including the parts you occupied with genocide
Factman: I am surprised that you have bought into the theory about the dissolution of the RS. If, as you say, the IC wanted to use their view that the RS was formed on genocide in order to dissolve it, they would have tried to do so many years ago. What the IC wants is a stable two entity BiH where all sides accept the status quo and focus their efforts on improving the economy and the daily lives of its citizens rather than holding on to pipe dreams about changing Dayton unilaterally.
------------------------------------
Ned, it's funny how the world didn't want stability in Yugoslavia and encouraged and supported the breakup. Then the world didn't see any value in stability and territorial integrity of Serbia and encouraged and supported Albanians to go their own way all in the name of self government.
So why do they want Bosnia to remain whole? What makes Bosnia so special? Bosnia is really just mini Yugoslavia which has the same ethnic groups living in it and those groups can't get along.
So until "the world" can answer what makes Bosnia more precious than Yugoslavia or Serbia a break up of is necessary for future stability.
In other words: no referendum, no independence, no 'union' with big brother and last but not least, no Velika Srbija. This is just a silver tongue way for him to say that no changes to the status quo. He is very lucky that his voters aren't that bright.
Milo has promised a referendum forever. You can dream to chase 10 percent of non-serbs that are left out of there and make it part of Srrbia or even an ethnically pure Serbian state, but that is what it will remain, a sick dream.
hi Momcilo siptarovic....all those facts you state are not facts at all, they are your opinions, nothing more.
Not for one second do I deny that the Serbian side commited atrocious acts, but I also know that the muslims did exactly the same. You can't have it both ways, the muslims didn't want to be part of Yugoslavia anymore, fine. but serbians that have owned and lived on their land for generations don't want to be a part of bosnia. they own nearly half the land and they will leave eventually trust me. no Christian wants to live under muslim rule.
Oh and this is for impartial observers on the site...there is no such name as momcilo siptarovic in any of the former republics, the guy uses it as an insult...the first bit (momcilo) is a Dalmatian Serb first name, here he is alluding to what happened in Krajina.
the second part (Siptarovic) basically alludes to Kosovo since Siptar is what Serbs call Albanians, the ic thrown at the end makes no sense whatsoever and the whole name is fake, the guy just wants to provoke.
dude I come from Tuzla, to mixed parents. don't tell me what happened or didn't happen there. I already know.
Njegos: My eyes don't need opening; I've been to Mostar more than 30 times and know the situation there very well. It's rich to argue that BiH is an artificial creation given that it has existed within its current borders for centuries whereas the RS has been around since 1992.
(ned taylor, 14 January 2016 11:02)
You didn't answer the question, there are no Serbs left in Mostar because they were ethnically cleansed. B&H is an artificial creation and never existed in it's current borders. You should educate yourself, the current borders of Bosnia-Herzegovina was created by Djilas and Tito and has not been there for centuries. Under the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, various borders were created from Banovina's to Oblasts. Yes, there were Bosnian and Herzegovina kingdoms which were composed of Serbian and Croatian Kings, King Tvrtko, Kotromanovici dynasty, etc. The Kings of Rascia, Nemanaci dynasty were Serbian Kings!
Bosnian Herzegovina failed to survive in Austro-Hungary, failed to survive in Yugoslavia and is doomed to failure under a Bosnian Federation.
Here you are acting like some expert and telling Serbians and Croatians what Bosnia is. Bosnian Serbians celebrate Slava just like Serbians, that should tell you something that they are Serbians not Bosnians. The same for Montenegrins and many so called "Macedonians". Until you understand the history of the region, you have no authority to speak on what Bosnia is and was.
Tensions are running high on this thread. Dodik is simply saying what most of the 1.4 million Serbs west of the Drina river feel. Their affinity is and will always be for Serbia.
Less than 75 years ago, Bosnian Serbs were being slaughtered in the hundreds of thousands by the Nazi Ustasha regime. But then Yugoslavia was again the big compromise. They got to live in the same state with Serbia. And when the Muslims in Bosnia wanted independence from Yugoslavia, the Serbs naturally wanted their own institutions to protect their survival. Perfectly legitimate. Truth is the Bosnian Muslims should not have left Yugoslavia, and certainly not as a unitary republic when there are 3 constituent groups in Bosnia. These were grounds for war.
But for peace to be maintained, the best solution is to stick to the original Dayton agreement. Which keeps Bosnia together but also like it or not allows RS to operate as an autonomous republic.
It's nice to see that somebody in B&H is thinking with more that half a brain and speaking out of just one face instead of two or three. As usual both B&H and FB&H are silent.
Milo has promised a referendum forever. You can dream to chase 10 percent of non-serbs that are left out of there and make it part of Srrbia or even an ethnically pure Serbian state, but that is what it will remain, a sick dream.
(mountainofwrath, 13 January 2016 15:41
===================================
Where do you get this rubbish from? Nobody would chase any non Serb out of RS even if it joined Serbia. There are plenty of minorities living in Serbia without any trouble unlike in Croatia or "Kosova". Serbs are the most multiethnic society there.
Stop with the lies.
With all due respect to your 15 years of service, what you say is very true, but at the risk of sounding like some conspiracist, there are some actors who have notable track records operating outside of traditional IC activities in order to manufacture events that would be advantageous to their ultimate policy objectives down the road. One such actor is the UK. They have a robust history in the Balkans
If that sounds far fetched, then I ask what purpose did that vote intend to serve?
To bring about reconcilliation?
I don't think so
While they can't dismantle it outright, they can certainly plant seeds for a future when the environment is more conducive to dismantle (or create a chit to be redeemed later)
In the meantime, muddy them some more with bad press and keep the association between RS and Genocide in the headlines. it pays back great policy dividends over time
Or perhaps they did it to set right the historical record?
Why then such moral fervor to set that right when an event 7 times as large has not been acknowledged nor condemned? Anyone who attended Balkan 101 class would tell you that Serbs would shoot it down simply out of spite that 1941-45 remains unacknowledged.
What one resists will persist.
There is moral and ethical complicity by failing to acknowledge and it creates conditions for future conflict.... or at the least a deep well of suspicion (which everyone is now encountering).
From Momcilo: "it is a fact that the serbs wanted war and bosniaks did not, it is a fact that the serbs started it, it is a fact that serbs tried to create greater serbia and failed,..."
WRONG on all counts Momo. In March of '92 Izetbegovic, Karadzic (and the Croat rep whose name I forget) all signed the Lisbon agreement to partition B-H into ethnic cantons. Warren Zimmerman, US Ambassador to Yugoslavia then encouraged Izetbegovic to renege on the agreement because he said the US would support a unified Bosnia with Izetbegivic at the head. This, combined with violating the Yugoslav constitution and the Helsinki Accords by prematurely seceding, insured that there would be bloodshed.
If you break international law and put your belief in foreigners you put yourself and your people at great risk. That risk didn't pay off for the Muslims nor the Croats of B-H. Today the three ethnic groups live separately as initially set forth in the Lisbon agreement that Izetbegovic reneged on. Clearly, the death and destruction that occurred during the war could have been avoided had Izetbegovic lived up to his word. Soon B-H will disintegrate, the Serbs will unite with Serbia, the Croats with Croatia and the Muslims will become a footnote in Balkan history. You reap what you sow.
Ned - I would only add a few things to jugoslavia's accurate rebuttal of your implication that because Bosnia has existed for centuries, the country as we know it today should remain intact. B-H in its current form has existed since 1995. It was created by foreigners who don't live there. Two of the three ethnic groups want to unite with their mother countries, Serbia and Croatia. The Muslims (an ethnic group only in B-H) want to preserve the current structure because they will be surrounded by enemies and will be reduced to a footnote in Balkan history. They should have though about this reality before Izetbegovic reneged on the Lisbon agreement to partition B-H into ethnic cantons. He was power hungry and was grossly misled by the US. You reap what you sow.
Your noble efforts to try to keep this 20 year bad experiment intact is wasted energy. The hatred on all sides runs too deep. Give it up and go find a hobby.
Factman: I am surprised that you have bought into the theory about the dissolution of the RS. If, as you say, the IC wanted to use their view that the RS was formed on genocide in order to dissolve it, they would have tried to do so many years ago. What the IC wants is a stable two entity BiH where all sides accept the status quo and focus their efforts on improving the economy and the daily lives of its citizens rather than holding on to pipe dreams about changing Dayton unilaterally. You credit world powers with a far greater interest in Bosnia than is the case (other than concerns about returning ISIS fighters). I cannot vouch for the personal views of every international representative resident in BiH but I can tell you that there are no plans, neither have there been at any time while I have been advising the IC in Sarajevo, some 15 years, to change Dayton other than with the consent of all parties. Whatever all the sides agree will be accepted as without such agreement there is no chance that any changes will be sustainable. Dodik likes to huff and puff and sees the RS as his personal fiefdom. Who ever hears about the Prime Minister any more now that Dodik doesn't have that role and who ever heard from the President when it wasn't MD? Until he has been voted out of office (he will never be removed)there will be constant conflict both with OHR and between the entities. Dodik loves these confrontations, they are what get him out of bed each day.
Ned, yes I was referring to the referendum on the constitutional court. The referendum on independence will follow in due time. You seem to be in favor of preserving the manufactured entity of B-H. Let it go man. Face the facts. The 3 ethnic groups want to live separately. Forcing people to live together doesn't work, and . by the way, is undemocratic.
Croats and Muslims were allies for a time during the war. Now they hate each other. A visit to Mostar will open your eyes where Muslims live on side of the city and Croats on the other. Oh, and by the way, the 20,000 Serbs that lived there before the war have been ethnically cleansed. Indeed, Mostar is a microcosm of the problems inherent in the whole of B-H. Forcing people to live together will only work for so long. However well intentioned your motives may be, your energy should be spent on something more realistic. Move on.
Njegos: My eyes don't need opening; I've been to Mostar more than 30 times and know the situation there very well. It's rich to argue that BiH is an artificial creation given that it has existed within its current borders for centuries whereas the RS has been around since 1992.
Peggy: Firstly, it is clear that "the world" doesn't feel obliged to explain why Bosnia is "more precious" than Yugoslavia was. Secondly, whatever explanation they offered to you would be rejected because you have already decided how you feel and they aren't going to change your mind. I'm sure you know the story about 'aggressors' and 'victims' of the conflict and whatever you feel about it, that is the best you are going to get from those running BiH through the PIC. I would like to see the issue of right of return (or compensation) to be properly addressed on all sides before any discussion is held about the future composition of BiH. In all countries we need to promote the idea of tolerance of others, not give that impression that if you simply don't like those around you, you can create your own state; where would this end? No-one is persecuting the people in the RS, the excuse used in Kosovo and the Crimea for their declarations of independence, and there is no groundswell of opinion for independence or marches/protest movements demanding such. The momentum is all coming from the top in the form of Dodik himself who fancies the idea of being a dictator in the Putin/Lukashenko mould.
That vote was intended to serve as cover to dismantle Dayton by saying: A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity.
(factman, 13 January 2016 15:43)
Was this a draft resolution introduced by you or Dodik, because I could not find any other draft resolution saying "A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity"?!
To icj: You win the award for the most boring, mundane and meaningless posts on this forum. I like to read your comments late at night because they never fail to put me to sleep. With that said, allow me to answer your latest meaningless question to me. The Helsinki Accords prohibited the changing of borders by force for the signors of the agreement. The premature recognition and illegal secession of B-H contributed to the dismemberment of Yugoslavia in which people on all sides lost their lives and property.
Please don't respond. I may fell compelled to answer another of your senseless questions and lose another 5 minutes of my life that I'll never get back.
I've just read Ari's last paragraph and very worryingly find that I agree wholeheartedly. Most IC players have a very similar view despite what you might read on here.
The biggest mistake is that Balkan peoples associate the Osman empire with the Turks. Same as the Hungarians in Voivodina would symbolize Serbia or the Shqiptars will be associated with Greece. Yes in the Ottoman empire there lived some Turkic peoples but they made 5-10% of population and had almost zero influence before the 20-th century.
It was a multinational and multiconfessional empire with 4 main “milliats” – Muslim, Orthodox, Armenian and Jewish. They all were headed by their religious leaders and enjoyed full autonomy in most of the issues including languages, belief, taxes, education ect.
In 15-16 centuries the Orthodox milliet called Halk-i Rum (People OF Rome) used mostly old Serbian language also called Slovenski. It was different from the current language developed by Vuk Karadic but it is close to the language used in the churches now. In Russia this language was known as сербский извод церковно-славянского языка.
Yet since 17 century Greek language became dominant inside the Halk-i Rum milliet plus it became diplomatic language of the empire. So all the international treaties of the Ottomans in 17-20 centuries were composed in Greek. Also since 15 century the milliet was headed by a Greek Patriarch.
Thus before early 19 century there was no discrimination of the Orthodox peoples or of any other. I can tell about other milliets and the minorities that could not form a milliet of their own. Turkic peoples were among them.
Their gens are more then 35 percent turkish ....anyways all this can be confirmed
(Svi.te.vi. Bosanci.., 13 January 2016 13:35)
------------------
Here's another confirmation for you. You're an idiot.
Now about who Serbs and the Serves. Serbian Njemanici Dynasty most likely was a branch of the ruling dynasty of the Great Horde. No nations existed before 17-18 centuries so Serbs were just a Slavic people with very little difference from other southern Slavs including the Russians in Ukraine. All the Sultans were Orthodox Slavs of the Komnin/Rurikovici dynasty and at least Mehmet-II and Suleiman the Magnificent spoke old Serbian. Mehmet-II had Serbian mother and wife Mara. Words TURK and TURKIC were attached to this people only in 19 century. It’s a big mistake to think that the Ottoman empire started in Anatol because the cradle of the empire was the Balkans. And it was from the Balkans that Mehmed II Fatih stormed Constantinople in 1453. The thing is that since 1267 the city was already controlled by another branch of the Greek/Russian dynasty of the Komnin/Rurikovici. So the Slavs fought on both sides. It was natural that Mehmet kept the two headed symbol of their dynasty after the victory. It is what you call as Albanian flag. Most likely shqiptars were in Mehmet’s army. Since 13 century the eagle was the main symbol of the Horde and it survived only in the Ottoman empire while all the Catholics cut off the eastern heads in 17-18 centuries. As for the Serves it became possible because of the wrong interpretation of the Cyrillic letter "B" sounded both Latin B and V.
So why do they want Bosnia to remain whole? What makes Bosnia so special?
(Peggy, 13 January 2016 23:18)
Issue in Bosnia is that RS holds 49% of territory won when they had military advantage ( all in Bosnia committed crimes not blaming RS); RS referendum will start another war RS within hours or Days will be split in 2 parts by Croatian and Bosnian Army. This time Serbia wont be allowed to help much more than volunteers and small arms going to RS, EU does not want another embarrassment of 1990s repeated in Balkans, Russia wont be able to help it can not corss NATO Airspace to get to help Bosnian Serbs so it will be a nightmare.
If this happens Bosnia will be filled with even more Arab Ninjas and it will be a worst nightmare for EU, so they want to contain the problem or break RS slowlly with help of mother Serbia to allow this change in Bosnia maybe not in next 10 years but in 20 or 30 with new generation of politicians far removed form war.
Was this a draft resolution introduced by you or Dodik, because I could not find any other draft resolution saying "A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity"?!
#####
I believe you skipped over the part where I wrote that the UK is well practiced in the art of subterfuge.
subterfuge: deceit used in order to achieve one's goal.
synonyms: trickery · intrigue · deviousness · deceit · deception
You see, one cannot be as literal as you are in life. One needs to read between the lines. You must be a lot of fun at social gatherings, right?
Anyway, due to this foreign capital subterfuge, the default position of Serbs = skepticism, suspicion, and contrariness ("inat").
And why shouldn't it be those things after all the support and love that foreign capitals have shown Serbs over the centuries
Ask the typical person in Serbia or RS or immigrant from those places to any other country and they'll tell you no different than what I wrote above.
You see, one cannot be as literal as you are in life. One needs to read between the lines. You must be a lot of fun at social gatherings, right?
(factman, 14 January 2016 16:10)
Got it. You are correct in that case. I thought you were referring to a draft resolution the UNSC voted on, not a discussion of your halucinations over a few drinks at a bar. Sorry for the misunderstanding lol
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Ask the typical person in Serbia or RS or immigrant from those places to any other country and they'll tell you no different than what I wrote above.
(factman, 14 January 2016 16:10)
I followed your advice and I asked people from Serbia and RS and they told me that what you are saying about Serbs is BS!
Njegos: One, I was not referring to the "current form" of BiH but to its borders. Two, I did not imply that because it has been around for centuries it should not be broken up, I was making the point that to refer to BiH as an artificial creation when defending the RS was a bit rich. Whatever form of BiH that can be agreed by the all constituent peoples, without recourse to another conflict, would satisfy those sitting on the PIC. I have plenty of hobbies but your interest in my spiritual and pastoral wellbeing is much appreciated and heart-warming.
To icj: You win the award for the most boring, mundane
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Well, in case you failed to notice, this is not the website of Britain got talent, American Idol or something like that lol. So thanks for the award and certainly I appreciate that over some other people winning awards for stating lies!
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I like to read your comments late at night because they never fail to put me to sleep.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Good, thanks for reading them :)
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With that said, allow me to answer your latest meaningless question to me.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Not sure what answering a meaningless question means! If something has no meaning, than there is nothing for you to answer. But if something has a meaning, than yes you have something to answer, if you wish. You have to pick which part of what you wrote is correct!
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The Helsinki Accords prohibited the changing of borders by force for the signors of the agreement.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Oh, ok. Assuming that is the case, who was this signor that changed borders by force?
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Please don't respond. I may fell compelled to answer another of your senseless questions and lose another 5 minutes of my life that I'll never get back.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
That's funny. You not only want to write BS, but you want to also prevent others from pointing it out!
Ask the typical person in Serbia or RS or immigrant from those places to any other country and they'll tell you no different than what I wrote above.
(factman, 14 January 2016 16:10)
I followed your advice and I asked people from Serbia and RS and they told me that what you are saying about Serbs is BS!
(icj1, 14 January 2016 21:39)
###
You lie.
(factman, 16 January 2016 04:22)
You are so predictable mate; precisely the answer that I expected hahaha
So, now please entertain the forum explaining why what people tell you is the truth, but what they tell to other member of these forums is a lie! What makes you and/or the people you speak with so special?! :)
I just added an automatic sequence to my web browser which modifies the page using JavaScript to strip out any post that has the letters "icj1"
It's as if icj1 does not exist.
Bye-bye.
(factman, 18 January 2016 16:59)
I totally agree that is the best course of action since there are few claims you make, if any, that you can substantiate with any evidence other than because factman said so!
ICJ: I believe Factman is disputing whether or not you actually asked anyone from the RS these questions. The clue is in the words "you lie" as opposed to "they are lying".
I know these people better than you.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
Really?! You know the people I spoke to better than me?! Do you even know who those people are?! As I predicted, this is becoming very entertaining :)
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I know more of them than you.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
Really?! How many of them do you know? And how can you make the statement above without knowing how many of them I know?! hahaha
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I speak the language and you don't.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
I spoke with those people in a language that both me and them understood. How do you know that was not the case, unless you were one of them?! lol
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I understand the mentality and you don't.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
I certainly don't understand your mentality! There you absolutely do have a point. I think we would find few people understanding your mentality!
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The only predictable thing here is that you rarely have anything intelligent to say.
Argumentative. Lacking in substance. Intellectually corrupt.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
I applied the methodology of a certain "factman" to create facts. If that methodology is not intelligent, lacks substance and is intellectually corrupt, please feel free to direct your concerns to that certain "factman".
ICJ: I believe Factman is disputing whether or not you actually asked anyone from the RS these questions. The clue is in the words "you lie" as opposed to "they are lying".
(ned taylor, 17 January 2016 16:02)
Well, our dear friend factman is saying and disputing many things but his/her only evidence is because factman said so :) So I'm just entertaining myself for a bit using factman's method for creating facts lol
This bloke , am so over him and his point less politics .... Bosnia has been around longer... The language u Serbian people speak is bosnian... Serbian r Iranian so are Croatian ... This is proven throw their jeans... Also in Iran the have rivers where these tripes came from ... Lol these people r so stupit like like who their leader is... They killed normal people who just lived normal life's n that's their republic ... That's embarrassing .... For. Serbs servia.....and they dare to hate Turks but if it wasn't for the Turk they wouldn't be here today ... 1863 use changed ur name from servia and stole the Russian flag and the Albanian eagle... Made up... Ohhhh and ur language so called where did u guys get that from..... Bosnian n changed it to Russian letters lol..... I feel sorry for these people and am angry why nothing is been done .. They r not much of men either ... ask their women ... Their gens are more then 35 percent turkish ....anyways all this can be confirmed
In other words: no referendum, no independence, no 'union' with big brother and last but not least, no Velika Srbija. This is just a silver tongue way for him to say that no changes to the status quo. He is very lucky that his voters aren't that bright.
For njegos, it is a fact that the serbs wanted war and bosniaks did not, it is a fact that the serbs started it, it is a fact that serbs tried to create greater serbia and failed, it is a fact RS was rewardedto you from the weat otherwisr it would be in hell with RSK, it is a fact that bosnia not only didn't have western military aid but an arms embargo on it, it is a fact that serbs lost in all definitions of it, lying to yourself like Dobrica Cosic told you to will not change anything.
And as for dodik, it is a fact that bosnian did not start in 1995 there is proof of that everywhere, and chances are Bosnian is the language you speak, oldest dictionary, state charter, stone attestation, etc. if you use bosniak then why not use serb language? Oh and as a final note, you are free to leave bosnia whenever, including the parts you occupied with genocide
Njegos: I am not sure which referendum you are referring to. There may be one about the role of the Constitutional Court but there won't be the one that Dodik promised in 2006 about RS independence, which is the one he most wants to hold but cannot do so because he has no support for this. He likes being the big kuhana in a small sea otherwise he could already have left the country in which he "has to live" and gone to his expensive flat in Belgrade and a small role in Serb politics there.
To goodbuytubby: Read the article again, there will be a referendum. And for all intents and purposes, RS is independent. And if you look at the fact that 33% of the B-H population control 49% of the territory, you can make the case that a Greater Serbia exists. But don't blame the Serbs for that. This is a consequence of the Muslim ad Croat policies of trying to create greater entities of their own with western military backing. It didn't work and the Serbs came out on top in B-H. Too bad. Blame your gullible leaders who lead you to war and lost. Just ask Lenny the Loser whose family can't go back to their home in what is now the RS. Serbs never wanted war. Muslims and Croats did. Quit crying. You reap what you sow.
Milo has promised a referendum forever. You can dream to chase 10 percent of non-serbs that are left out of there and make it part of Srrbia or even an ethnically pure Serbian state, but that is what it will remain, a sick dream.
f you use bosniak then why not use serb language? Oh and as a final note, you are free to leave bosnia whenever, including the parts you occupied with genocide
(Momcilo Siptarovic, 13 January 2016 15:46) # C
Nobody speaks Bosnian in Bosnia except Turks who think it's a language. You can thank Tito for creating a "Muslim Nationality' no where in the world is there such a thing as "Muslim" nationality. The Bulgarians and Germans were smart enough to label them as Turks Not Bavarians, Prussians, etc. You are nothing but Turks, if you want to be Turks, go follow your war criminal Haris Siladjic who bombed his own citizens for US intervention and now is with the Erdogan dictatorship in Turkey.
The failed attempt to pass the genocide resolution initiated by the British was the clearest indicator that the ultimate plan was to dismantle RS by passing a genocide vote in the UNSC. In the article, Dodik touched upon this effort led by the Brits.
That vote was intended to serve as cover to dismantle Dayton by saying: A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity.
Much is made of the 100k dead (from all 3 sidesof this Bosnian Civil War) and much should be made of it "so that it never happens again." Indeed, it should never happen again.
Meanwhile, all are silent about the real genocide committed in WW2 against 600k Serbs, Gypsies, and Jews in Bosnia and Croatia. This is the 75th Anniversary of the beginning of those events.
When will that be "officially" acknowleged with the same fervor and moral authority?
When will the memories and voices of those victims be heard or even acknowledged?
When will those events officially be brought into the historical record so that "it never happens again?"
Tensions are running high on this thread. Dodik is simply saying what most of the 1.4 million Serbs west of the Drina river feel. Their affinity is and will always be for Serbia.
Less than 75 years ago, Bosnian Serbs were being slaughtered in the hundreds of thousands by the Nazi Ustasha regime. But then Yugoslavia was again the big compromise. They got to live in the same state with Serbia. And when the Muslims in Bosnia wanted independence from Yugoslavia, the Serbs naturally wanted their own institutions to protect their survival. Perfectly legitimate. Truth is the Bosnian Muslims should not have left Yugoslavia, and certainly not as a unitary republic when there are 3 constituent groups in Bosnia. These were grounds for war.
But for peace to be maintained, the best solution is to stick to the original Dayton agreement. Which keeps Bosnia together but also like it or not allows RS to operate as an autonomous republic.
Milo has promised a referendum forever. You can dream to chase 10 percent of non-serbs that are left out of there and make it part of Srrbia or even an ethnically pure Serbian state, but that is what it will remain, a sick dream.
(mountainofwrath, 13 January 2016 15:41
===================================
Where do you get this rubbish from? Nobody would chase any non Serb out of RS even if it joined Serbia. There are plenty of minorities living in Serbia without any trouble unlike in Croatia or "Kosova". Serbs are the most multiethnic society there.
Stop with the lies.
Now about who Serbs and the Serves. Serbian Njemanici Dynasty most likely was a branch of the ruling dynasty of the Great Horde. No nations existed before 17-18 centuries so Serbs were just a Slavic people with very little difference from other southern Slavs including the Russians in Ukraine. All the Sultans were Orthodox Slavs of the Komnin/Rurikovici dynasty and at least Mehmet-II and Suleiman the Magnificent spoke old Serbian. Mehmet-II had Serbian mother and wife Mara. Words TURK and TURKIC were attached to this people only in 19 century. It’s a big mistake to think that the Ottoman empire started in Anatol because the cradle of the empire was the Balkans. And it was from the Balkans that Mehmed II Fatih stormed Constantinople in 1453. The thing is that since 1267 the city was already controlled by another branch of the Greek/Russian dynasty of the Komnin/Rurikovici. So the Slavs fought on both sides. It was natural that Mehmet kept the two headed symbol of their dynasty after the victory. It is what you call as Albanian flag. Most likely shqiptars were in Mehmet’s army. Since 13 century the eagle was the main symbol of the Horde and it survived only in the Ottoman empire while all the Catholics cut off the eastern heads in 17-18 centuries. As for the Serves it became possible because of the wrong interpretation of the Cyrillic letter "B" sounded both Latin B and V.
Ned, yes I was referring to the referendum on the constitutional court. The referendum on independence will follow in due time. You seem to be in favor of preserving the manufactured entity of B-H. Let it go man. Face the facts. The 3 ethnic groups want to live separately. Forcing people to live together doesn't work, and . by the way, is undemocratic.
Croats and Muslims were allies for a time during the war. Now they hate each other. A visit to Mostar will open your eyes where Muslims live on side of the city and Croats on the other. Oh, and by the way, the 20,000 Serbs that lived there before the war have been ethnically cleansed. Indeed, Mostar is a microcosm of the problems inherent in the whole of B-H. Forcing people to live together will only work for so long. However well intentioned your motives may be, your energy should be spent on something more realistic. Move on.
Njegos: My eyes don't need opening; I've been to Mostar more than 30 times and know the situation there very well. It's rich to argue that BiH is an artificial creation given that it has existed within its current borders for centuries whereas the RS has been around since 1992.
(ned taylor, 14 January 2016 11:02)
You didn't answer the question, there are no Serbs left in Mostar because they were ethnically cleansed. B&H is an artificial creation and never existed in it's current borders. You should educate yourself, the current borders of Bosnia-Herzegovina was created by Djilas and Tito and has not been there for centuries. Under the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, various borders were created from Banovina's to Oblasts. Yes, there were Bosnian and Herzegovina kingdoms which were composed of Serbian and Croatian Kings, King Tvrtko, Kotromanovici dynasty, etc. The Kings of Rascia, Nemanaci dynasty were Serbian Kings!
Bosnian Herzegovina failed to survive in Austro-Hungary, failed to survive in Yugoslavia and is doomed to failure under a Bosnian Federation.
Here you are acting like some expert and telling Serbians and Croatians what Bosnia is. Bosnian Serbians celebrate Slava just like Serbians, that should tell you something that they are Serbians not Bosnians. The same for Montenegrins and many so called "Macedonians". Until you understand the history of the region, you have no authority to speak on what Bosnia is and was.
hi Momcilo siptarovic....all those facts you state are not facts at all, they are your opinions, nothing more.
Not for one second do I deny that the Serbian side commited atrocious acts, but I also know that the muslims did exactly the same. You can't have it both ways, the muslims didn't want to be part of Yugoslavia anymore, fine. but serbians that have owned and lived on their land for generations don't want to be a part of bosnia. they own nearly half the land and they will leave eventually trust me. no Christian wants to live under muslim rule.
Oh and this is for impartial observers on the site...there is no such name as momcilo siptarovic in any of the former republics, the guy uses it as an insult...the first bit (momcilo) is a Dalmatian Serb first name, here he is alluding to what happened in Krajina.
the second part (Siptarovic) basically alludes to Kosovo since Siptar is what Serbs call Albanians, the ic thrown at the end makes no sense whatsoever and the whole name is fake, the guy just wants to provoke.
dude I come from Tuzla, to mixed parents. don't tell me what happened or didn't happen there. I already know.
The biggest mistake is that Balkan peoples associate the Osman empire with the Turks. Same as the Hungarians in Voivodina would symbolize Serbia or the Shqiptars will be associated with Greece. Yes in the Ottoman empire there lived some Turkic peoples but they made 5-10% of population and had almost zero influence before the 20-th century.
It was a multinational and multiconfessional empire with 4 main “milliats” – Muslim, Orthodox, Armenian and Jewish. They all were headed by their religious leaders and enjoyed full autonomy in most of the issues including languages, belief, taxes, education ect.
In 15-16 centuries the Orthodox milliet called Halk-i Rum (People OF Rome) used mostly old Serbian language also called Slovenski. It was different from the current language developed by Vuk Karadic but it is close to the language used in the churches now. In Russia this language was known as сербский извод церковно-славянского языка.
Yet since 17 century Greek language became dominant inside the Halk-i Rum milliet plus it became diplomatic language of the empire. So all the international treaties of the Ottomans in 17-20 centuries were composed in Greek. Also since 15 century the milliet was headed by a Greek Patriarch.
Thus before early 19 century there was no discrimination of the Orthodox peoples or of any other. I can tell about other milliets and the minorities that could not form a milliet of their own. Turkic peoples were among them.
From Momcilo: "it is a fact that the serbs wanted war and bosniaks did not, it is a fact that the serbs started it, it is a fact that serbs tried to create greater serbia and failed,..."
WRONG on all counts Momo. In March of '92 Izetbegovic, Karadzic (and the Croat rep whose name I forget) all signed the Lisbon agreement to partition B-H into ethnic cantons. Warren Zimmerman, US Ambassador to Yugoslavia then encouraged Izetbegovic to renege on the agreement because he said the US would support a unified Bosnia with Izetbegivic at the head. This, combined with violating the Yugoslav constitution and the Helsinki Accords by prematurely seceding, insured that there would be bloodshed.
If you break international law and put your belief in foreigners you put yourself and your people at great risk. That risk didn't pay off for the Muslims nor the Croats of B-H. Today the three ethnic groups live separately as initially set forth in the Lisbon agreement that Izetbegovic reneged on. Clearly, the death and destruction that occurred during the war could have been avoided had Izetbegovic lived up to his word. Soon B-H will disintegrate, the Serbs will unite with Serbia, the Croats with Croatia and the Muslims will become a footnote in Balkan history. You reap what you sow.
Factman: I am surprised that you have bought into the theory about the dissolution of the RS. If, as you say, the IC wanted to use their view that the RS was formed on genocide in order to dissolve it, they would have tried to do so many years ago. What the IC wants is a stable two entity BiH where all sides accept the status quo and focus their efforts on improving the economy and the daily lives of its citizens rather than holding on to pipe dreams about changing Dayton unilaterally. You credit world powers with a far greater interest in Bosnia than is the case (other than concerns about returning ISIS fighters). I cannot vouch for the personal views of every international representative resident in BiH but I can tell you that there are no plans, neither have there been at any time while I have been advising the IC in Sarajevo, some 15 years, to change Dayton other than with the consent of all parties. Whatever all the sides agree will be accepted as without such agreement there is no chance that any changes will be sustainable. Dodik likes to huff and puff and sees the RS as his personal fiefdom. Who ever hears about the Prime Minister any more now that Dodik doesn't have that role and who ever heard from the President when it wasn't MD? Until he has been voted out of office (he will never be removed)there will be constant conflict both with OHR and between the entities. Dodik loves these confrontations, they are what get him out of bed each day.
Factman: I am surprised that you have bought into the theory about the dissolution of the RS. If, as you say, the IC wanted to use their view that the RS was formed on genocide in order to dissolve it, they would have tried to do so many years ago. What the IC wants is a stable two entity BiH where all sides accept the status quo and focus their efforts on improving the economy and the daily lives of its citizens rather than holding on to pipe dreams about changing Dayton unilaterally.
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Ned, it's funny how the world didn't want stability in Yugoslavia and encouraged and supported the breakup. Then the world didn't see any value in stability and territorial integrity of Serbia and encouraged and supported Albanians to go their own way all in the name of self government.
So why do they want Bosnia to remain whole? What makes Bosnia so special? Bosnia is really just mini Yugoslavia which has the same ethnic groups living in it and those groups can't get along.
So until "the world" can answer what makes Bosnia more precious than Yugoslavia or Serbia a break up of is necessary for future stability.
Their gens are more then 35 percent turkish ....anyways all this can be confirmed
(Svi.te.vi. Bosanci.., 13 January 2016 13:35)
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Here's another confirmation for you. You're an idiot.
Njegos: My eyes don't need opening; I've been to Mostar more than 30 times and know the situation there very well. It's rich to argue that BiH is an artificial creation given that it has existed within its current borders for centuries whereas the RS has been around since 1992.
Peggy: Firstly, it is clear that "the world" doesn't feel obliged to explain why Bosnia is "more precious" than Yugoslavia was. Secondly, whatever explanation they offered to you would be rejected because you have already decided how you feel and they aren't going to change your mind. I'm sure you know the story about 'aggressors' and 'victims' of the conflict and whatever you feel about it, that is the best you are going to get from those running BiH through the PIC. I would like to see the issue of right of return (or compensation) to be properly addressed on all sides before any discussion is held about the future composition of BiH. In all countries we need to promote the idea of tolerance of others, not give that impression that if you simply don't like those around you, you can create your own state; where would this end? No-one is persecuting the people in the RS, the excuse used in Kosovo and the Crimea for their declarations of independence, and there is no groundswell of opinion for independence or marches/protest movements demanding such. The momentum is all coming from the top in the form of Dodik himself who fancies the idea of being a dictator in the Putin/Lukashenko mould.
That vote was intended to serve as cover to dismantle Dayton by saying: A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity.
(factman, 13 January 2016 15:43)
Was this a draft resolution introduced by you or Dodik, because I could not find any other draft resolution saying "A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity"?!
Was this a draft resolution introduced by you or Dodik, because I could not find any other draft resolution saying "A great mistake was made in creating the RS because it was founded on genocide. Therefore it must now be historically corrected and be extinguished as a separate entity"?!
#####
I believe you skipped over the part where I wrote that the UK is well practiced in the art of subterfuge.
subterfuge: deceit used in order to achieve one's goal.
synonyms: trickery · intrigue · deviousness · deceit · deception
You see, one cannot be as literal as you are in life. One needs to read between the lines. You must be a lot of fun at social gatherings, right?
Anyway, due to this foreign capital subterfuge, the default position of Serbs = skepticism, suspicion, and contrariness ("inat").
And why shouldn't it be those things after all the support and love that foreign capitals have shown Serbs over the centuries
Ask the typical person in Serbia or RS or immigrant from those places to any other country and they'll tell you no different than what I wrote above.
You see, one cannot be as literal as you are in life. One needs to read between the lines. You must be a lot of fun at social gatherings, right?
(factman, 14 January 2016 16:10)
Got it. You are correct in that case. I thought you were referring to a draft resolution the UNSC voted on, not a discussion of your halucinations over a few drinks at a bar. Sorry for the misunderstanding lol
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Ask the typical person in Serbia or RS or immigrant from those places to any other country and they'll tell you no different than what I wrote above.
(factman, 14 January 2016 16:10)
I followed your advice and I asked people from Serbia and RS and they told me that what you are saying about Serbs is BS!
To icj: You win the award for the most boring, mundane and meaningless posts on this forum. I like to read your comments late at night because they never fail to put me to sleep. With that said, allow me to answer your latest meaningless question to me. The Helsinki Accords prohibited the changing of borders by force for the signors of the agreement. The premature recognition and illegal secession of B-H contributed to the dismemberment of Yugoslavia in which people on all sides lost their lives and property.
Please don't respond. I may fell compelled to answer another of your senseless questions and lose another 5 minutes of my life that I'll never get back.
Njegos: One, I was not referring to the "current form" of BiH but to its borders. Two, I did not imply that because it has been around for centuries it should not be broken up, I was making the point that to refer to BiH as an artificial creation when defending the RS was a bit rich. Whatever form of BiH that can be agreed by the all constituent peoples, without recourse to another conflict, would satisfy those sitting on the PIC. I have plenty of hobbies but your interest in my spiritual and pastoral wellbeing is much appreciated and heart-warming.
ICJ: I believe Factman is disputing whether or not you actually asked anyone from the RS these questions. The clue is in the words "you lie" as opposed to "they are lying".
(ned taylor, 17 January 2016 16:02)
Well, our dear friend factman is saying and disputing many things but his/her only evidence is because factman said so :) So I'm just entertaining myself for a bit using factman's method for creating facts lol
Ned - I would only add a few things to jugoslavia's accurate rebuttal of your implication that because Bosnia has existed for centuries, the country as we know it today should remain intact. B-H in its current form has existed since 1995. It was created by foreigners who don't live there. Two of the three ethnic groups want to unite with their mother countries, Serbia and Croatia. The Muslims (an ethnic group only in B-H) want to preserve the current structure because they will be surrounded by enemies and will be reduced to a footnote in Balkan history. They should have though about this reality before Izetbegovic reneged on the Lisbon agreement to partition B-H into ethnic cantons. He was power hungry and was grossly misled by the US. You reap what you sow.
Your noble efforts to try to keep this 20 year bad experiment intact is wasted energy. The hatred on all sides runs too deep. Give it up and go find a hobby.
To icj: You win the award for the most boring, mundane
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Well, in case you failed to notice, this is not the website of Britain got talent, American Idol or something like that lol. So thanks for the award and certainly I appreciate that over some other people winning awards for stating lies!
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I like to read your comments late at night because they never fail to put me to sleep.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Good, thanks for reading them :)
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With that said, allow me to answer your latest meaningless question to me.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Not sure what answering a meaningless question means! If something has no meaning, than there is nothing for you to answer. But if something has a meaning, than yes you have something to answer, if you wish. You have to pick which part of what you wrote is correct!
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The Helsinki Accords prohibited the changing of borders by force for the signors of the agreement.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
Oh, ok. Assuming that is the case, who was this signor that changed borders by force?
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Please don't respond. I may fell compelled to answer another of your senseless questions and lose another 5 minutes of my life that I'll never get back.
(njegos, 15 January 2016 01:16)
That's funny. You not only want to write BS, but you want to also prevent others from pointing it out!
Ask the typical person in Serbia or RS or immigrant from those places to any other country and they'll tell you no different than what I wrote above.
(factman, 14 January 2016 16:10)
I followed your advice and I asked people from Serbia and RS and they told me that what you are saying about Serbs is BS!
(icj1, 14 January 2016 21:39)
###
You lie.
(factman, 16 January 2016 04:22)
You are so predictable mate; precisely the answer that I expected hahaha
So, now please entertain the forum explaining why what people tell you is the truth, but what they tell to other member of these forums is a lie! What makes you and/or the people you speak with so special?! :)
I know these people better than you.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
Really?! You know the people I spoke to better than me?! Do you even know who those people are?! As I predicted, this is becoming very entertaining :)
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I know more of them than you.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
Really?! How many of them do you know? And how can you make the statement above without knowing how many of them I know?! hahaha
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I speak the language and you don't.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
I spoke with those people in a language that both me and them understood. How do you know that was not the case, unless you were one of them?! lol
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I understand the mentality and you don't.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
I certainly don't understand your mentality! There you absolutely do have a point. I think we would find few people understanding your mentality!
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The only predictable thing here is that you rarely have anything intelligent to say.
Argumentative. Lacking in substance. Intellectually corrupt.
(factman, 17 January 2016 03:31)
I applied the methodology of a certain "factman" to create facts. If that methodology is not intelligent, lacks substance and is intellectually corrupt, please feel free to direct your concerns to that certain "factman".
I just added an automatic sequence to my web browser which modifies the page using JavaScript to strip out any post that has the letters "icj1"
It's as if icj1 does not exist.
Bye-bye.
(factman, 18 January 2016 16:59)
I totally agree that is the best course of action since there are few claims you make, if any, that you can substantiate with any evidence other than because factman said so!
I've just read Ari's last paragraph and very worryingly find that I agree wholeheartedly. Most IC players have a very similar view despite what you might read on here.
It's nice to see that somebody in B&H is thinking with more that half a brain and speaking out of just one face instead of two or three. As usual both B&H and FB&H are silent.
With all due respect to your 15 years of service, what you say is very true, but at the risk of sounding like some conspiracist, there are some actors who have notable track records operating outside of traditional IC activities in order to manufacture events that would be advantageous to their ultimate policy objectives down the road. One such actor is the UK. They have a robust history in the Balkans
If that sounds far fetched, then I ask what purpose did that vote intend to serve?
To bring about reconcilliation?
I don't think so
While they can't dismantle it outright, they can certainly plant seeds for a future when the environment is more conducive to dismantle (or create a chit to be redeemed later)
In the meantime, muddy them some more with bad press and keep the association between RS and Genocide in the headlines. it pays back great policy dividends over time
Or perhaps they did it to set right the historical record?
Why then such moral fervor to set that right when an event 7 times as large has not been acknowledged nor condemned? Anyone who attended Balkan 101 class would tell you that Serbs would shoot it down simply out of spite that 1941-45 remains unacknowledged.
What one resists will persist.
There is moral and ethical complicity by failing to acknowledge and it creates conditions for future conflict.... or at the least a deep well of suspicion (which everyone is now encountering).
So why do they want Bosnia to remain whole? What makes Bosnia so special?
(Peggy, 13 January 2016 23:18)
Issue in Bosnia is that RS holds 49% of territory won when they had military advantage ( all in Bosnia committed crimes not blaming RS); RS referendum will start another war RS within hours or Days will be split in 2 parts by Croatian and Bosnian Army. This time Serbia wont be allowed to help much more than volunteers and small arms going to RS, EU does not want another embarrassment of 1990s repeated in Balkans, Russia wont be able to help it can not corss NATO Airspace to get to help Bosnian Serbs so it will be a nightmare.
If this happens Bosnia will be filled with even more Arab Ninjas and it will be a worst nightmare for EU, so they want to contain the problem or break RS slowlly with help of mother Serbia to allow this change in Bosnia maybe not in next 10 years but in 20 or 30 with new generation of politicians far removed form war.
ICJ: I believe Factman is disputing whether or not you actually asked anyone from the RS these questions. The clue is in the words "you lie" as opposed to "they are lying".
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