Facts speak louder than words, Serbia never declared war on the US or Allies even under Nazi occupation, the same cannot be said for Croatia and Albania.
14 December 1941 – Croatia declared war on the United States of America and Great Britain.
16 December 1941 – Czechoslovak government in exile declares war on all countries at war with the United States of America, Great Britain and the Soviet Union.
17 December 1941 – Albania declared war on the United States of America.
@ Balkan Anthropologist
"Besa" for us is not a myth, and it is not a "moral conscience"- to us is like un unwritten law.
And sorry, that Albania get out from the "FRAMES' in WWII, but have you ever listen about Adolf Hitler? Is that thin guy who exterminate people for more less than that..
@ route
1. Albanians here are free to give their opinion as much as you are. And as i know the majority of Albanians don't hate Russians and no one else from slavic people except Serbs.
That "parody" state which are you talking about, REFUSED to consign the jews before and during the occupation. And helped not only jews, but even other minority from the concentration camps.
And i don't know to much about jews in Italy, but as i have learn a lot of Italian Jews died in concentration camps, from the proclamation of law "of the pure race"(?) made by Mussolini. The same law that Italians bring in Albania.
And yes, Albania was not a AXIS supporter is ranged as an "ALLY" country in the war against Germans and you must like you or not.
And about the Jews - a little small country with ~ 3 million inhabitants to easy to exterminate from the Nazi machine risked their lives - to do that what other big and powerful country did not. Yes, Albanians fought for their freedom and for this we are in anti-Hitler front side. And you must like it ore not!!!
*I never thank you, and your government for sending to Albanian ARMY the invitation for take part in the Victory Day Parade! Thank you!:)
DONT FORGET THE CROATS AND BOSNIAKS KILLED BY PARTIZANS AND CHETNIKS IN WW II AND THE 1990s AND ALL THE PALESTINIANS BUTCHERED BY JEWISH PEOPLE LOOKING TO TAKE THERE LAND.
s were saved in the thousands by Nedic in Serbia during WWII, yes Nedic who has been falsely accused as a Nazi collaborator. Ya sure Serboslavia that is why he commemorated Belgrade Serbia being the first Jew free city in Europe, also making commemorated stamps to celebrate the Serbs accomplishment. How come their are more righteous Croatians listed then Serbs in the righteous memorial hall in Israel.
(Lenard, 14 July 2015 18:18)
You are going by a stamp that was issued by the Nazi's? General Nedic did not have a chance to defend himself as the Serbian Communist Rankovic through him off the roof without trial. Something similar to the Croatian War Criminal Cardinal Stipinac who went out the back door of the Communist Trial System. Or Croatian Cardinal Father Draganovic who is still alive in Canada responsible for funneling Nazi's into South America.
As for the Croatian Genocidal Holocaust, it is well documented that over 750,000 Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Croats perished at the hands of the Croatian Nazi State, care to deny it? Some Croatian Ustasha churches still have a service for Croatian Nazi Puppet Leader Ante Pavelic, are you one of those?
Italians has lost every battle they took part in. Even Stalingrad started with the 2-nd Italian Army where we broke the front. Their biggest problem is that they started to believe in the never existed Roman Empire. To be exact that Italy was not a colony of the Empire but the Metropolis. It always served them bad service. They cook good pizza, play good football, sew good dresses ect. But they never had balls and their children will also loose every war. They are positive and old traditional people but who the hell told them that they are warriors ?
DDD, absolutely, normally I wouldn't waste my time replying to trolls but in this particular instance, I invited the opinion of trolls and I got two responses from them. As expected, they were nonsensical but thought I would respond in this case.
Albania was the only country in EU that broke the Hitler order and refused to consign the Jews.
(Joni, 15)
Albania wasn’t a state yet it was a German parody of a state. The only country outside the USSR that saved their Jews was Italy. Mussolini said they had no Jews and that all were Italians so the discussion was ended. And I heard not a single good word about this strange man who during 21 years of his rule executed only 9 men … USSR and now Russia is the only state that does not admit Holocaust and nobody is even trying to use the pretext to mud us. Because they know that we can prove it easily. The idea of Holocaust appeared in the USA 9 years after WW2 so they do not tease us and we keep silence. By the way among the 12 million evacuated to the eastern regions of the USSR there were lots of Jews. They had little chance to survive and so they were evacuated first. Also our Jews unlike the European ones fought Hitler on the battlefield and they fought very well.
-- The difference between Italian Fascists and German Fascists --
In Bosnia, Serbs were saved by Italians from Germans and Ustasha. This happened so many times that the Italians were relieved of duties and put on mild duty farther west in Croatian and Montenegrin lands. After the war, many (thousands?) Serbs recounted that the Italian military saved their lives.
The Fascist Italian military commander of Bosnia refused to hand over Jews.
The Italians ousted Mussolini in the middle of WW2 and the southern half actually joined the Allies.
Italians failed in taking Greece yet were supplied with much German fire power.
Hitler was enraged by Italian military impotence many times.
Nuremberg was soft on Italians
The Italians were hardly Nazis, let alone fascists.
Germans crushed the countries they wanted eliminated with extreme prejudice.
Zorane, your obviously correct in your assertions but incorrect in wasting valuable time arguing points to these idiots, they are obviously not going to agree anyway, and if they did, who cares. Why do you honestly care what these guys think. Work and invest in yourself and your family. These idiots will still be here in 20 years arguing about the same thing. They were able to work with the demonically possessed US/UK to work in the interest of a select elite that got rich while everyone else got nothing. All that has come to an end with the internet and the distribution of truth. Everyone knows what happened. The self-proclaimed west is half way through in the process of collapse and the BRICS/SCO will take over the reigns of power.
Albania was the only country in EU that broke the Hitler order and refused to consign the Jews.
(Joni, 15 July 2015 11:06)
And yet we have evidence that Jews were arrested and sent to camps, mostly from Kosovo but even a few from Albania and those who weren't were still harassed and had their property confiscated. That doesn't mean that Jews weren't protected, it just means that not all were spared. Which is no different than any other Nazi occupied or Nazi collaborating country in Europe. What you call "Besa" the rest of Europe calls having a moral conscience.
icj1, the true international community, which is the United Nations, has not recognised the Srebrenica massacre as a genocide. Now that is a fact. The resolution by the UK failed to be accepted.
Your version of the international community, which consists mainly of the US and EU, is fake and does not represent the international community in its entirety as the UN does.
So I managed to get two Albanian trolls to attempt to explain why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not genocide.
The first troll, Azir, suggests that the bombing of Pearl Harbor, which was a military complex, justifies the atomic bombing of two Japanese cities and killing 200,000 mainly civilians, men, women, children and the elderly.
The other troll, icj1, suggests that because the crime of genocide did not exists at the time of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, it cannot be recognised as such. However, the genocide in Germany preceded those bombings and is recognised as such. Many countries have also recognised the genocide in Armenia which also precedes those two bombings.
Both seem to suggest that genocide can only be confirmed in court, even on hearsay evidence as presented on Srebrenica. Not taking into consideration that those courts are controlled and manipulated by the very powers that committed genocide numerous times (i.e USA and partners [international community])
Rudolph Joseph Rummel was professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii.
He claims that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were democide. "His definition of democide includes not only genocide, but also an excessive killing of civilians in war, to the extent this is against the agreed rules for warfare; he argues the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes, and thus democide." - Statistics of democide, ch. 13: Death by American bombings and other democide
@ Balkan Anthropologist
1. As much as you don't know and even don't understand this "MYTH", because it is not in your culture, and as much as i will try to explain i'm sure you will not understand it.
2. The fascists Italians were tolerant?
Did they ordered Albania to consign the Jews? Yes!
Did HITLER send to Albania the ORDER to consign the Jews?
Yes, THEY ordered Albania to consign the Jews and Albanian Government REFUSE! FACT!!!!!!
Albania was the only country in EU that broke the Hitler order and refused to consign the Jews.
Albania was the only country in EU that continue to give Visa to Jews, when no one else in Eu gave to them. ( is enough, no, for a small country against the two superpowers ).
That "MYTH" that you talking about is not "mythificated" by Albanians and more less from Hoxha, but from the survivor of Holocaust in Albania and from the numerous Jews who survived thanks to Albanian people.
Is unknown the nr. of Jews who came in Albania from neighboring country and albanian people helped them to cross the border for going is safe countries.
3. And a to important fact that you don't know is that after the capitulation of Italy - Germans killed all the Italian they found in Albania and even in Greece. OH, you don't know?
Now, could you tell to me how could they helped the Jews?
In fact you should read a little more reliable historic site, and you will find that the albanian people saved even a lot of Italians, thanks to that "myth" called "Besa".
@rote don't trust the Serbs they will be the first to throw you and Russia under the bus.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 19:35)
We have two “rotes” today and I personally do not need your advice concerning our brothers. For your better understanding last night a read an article about Tesla and you may be surprised but it was located in paragraph called “Русы” … Next came “Code Of Honor Of Russian Officers”, “Heritage of the Old-Believers”, “White Race The Aborigine People of Japan. Ainu.” Ect.
“blame comrade Stalin for that … a country of the USSR's size an easy prey for Germany … US relied on the technology … being smart that wins the wars not heroism; heroism was the main factor in the medieval times”
Court I am not going to explain things to a Russo/Serbophobe like you. But would like to explain myself to the rest :
1/ Stalin is still the most popular politician in our history. Most things said about him in the West are false. But what I agree with you is that the start of the war was his biggest sin against our people. And it wasn't one mistake but plenty of them derived from his theory of a counter attack war. Also you must know that the plot of the Soviet generals in 1941 was for real and in 1945 Stalin was back to the item. But many of the generals became heroes and Marshals so he had to close the prosecution.
2/ Americans fought quite well and they were not lacking heroism. Also they had no technical advantage. Some American arms were better some worse. I am grateful to every nation that fought on our side and the whole thing was raised here because of one bad phrase questioning the USSR's role. So I was that emotional. But anyway we don’t need an Albanian to judge us. Despite the 20 000 partisans Albania was far from being a part of the anti-Hitler front you know and only some of you like Joni can join the discussion. Besides it was our family business and we have already settled the things.
Yes of course and their combat losses formally were second big after the USSR. They made about 4% of our combat losses ( 400 000 against 10 000 000)
(rote, 14 July 2015 19:50)
Sure, but blame comrade Stalin for that. The USSR should have been able to resist the German invasion and win with a fraction of the 10 million, but comrade Stalin, in his quest for absolutely power and elimination of all enemies, real and imaginary, had destroyed the USSR's economy and armed forces making a country of the USSR's size an easy prey for Germany in the first year of the war. His paranoia was such that even when it was obvious that Germany was preparing to attack (how could the amassing of millions of soldiers go unnoticed!), he was thinking that the intelligence abount the imminent German attack was a ploy by the British to draw the USSR in the war and ordered the USSR armed forces not to be put on alert in order not to provoke Hitler!
Whereas the US relied on the technology and economy to win the war, and not on throwing millions of people to be slaughtered or cavalry to fight against the German panzers. It is being smart that wins the wars not heroism; heroism was the main factor in the medieval times, not in the industrial era...
I wonder, of all the Albanian trolls here who consider the Srebrenica massacre a "genocide", how many of them consider the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima a localised genocide? If not, please explain why? I'd be interested to know.
(Zoran, 14 July 2015 21:05)
It's the international community that considers Srebrenica's massacre "genocide", not just the Albanian trolls.
Not sure what a "localized genocide" is! There is no such a crime called "localized genocide".
But if you meant to say the crime of genocide, the answer is very simple. Because the international community has not determined beyond reasonable doubt that what happened in Hiroshima amounted to the crime of genocide. On the other hand, the international community has determined beyond reasonable doubt that what happened in Rwanda in 1994 and in Srebrenica in 1995 did amount to the crime of genocide.
The reason why the international community has not determined that what happened in Hiroshima amounted to the crime of genocide is because (1) nobody can be convicted for genocide in Hiroshima because such a crime did not exist at that time and (2) even if the crime of genocide were to exist at that time, what happened in Hiroshima does not fit the international community's definition of genocide https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%2078/volume-78-I-1021-English.pdf (see article 2).
@rote don't trust the Serbs they will be the first to throw you and Russia under the bus.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 19:35)
============================
You are not only desperate, but stupid too.
Azir - Where are the answers to my questions? What's wrong? Cat got your tongue? Your moniker as the 'Coward' of B92 has never been more appropriate. Face it Azir, you are a fraud. Your silence is deafening.
I wonder, of all the Albanian trolls here who consider the Srebrenica massacre a "genocide", how many of them consider the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima a localised genocide? If not, please explain why? I'd be interested to know.
FACTMAN : “The US had a big part of the victory too”
Yes of course and their combat losses formally were second big after the USSR. They made about 4% of our combat losses ( 400 000 against 10 000 000) but if we go into the details interesting things can be found :
1/ The USA conducted two wars at the time. One was WW2 and the other a colonial war of their own. Japan never took part in WW2 and Hitler called them traitors. Japanese PM was coming to Moscow in 1942 and spent there a whole month. He twice met with Stalin. So I ask could Hitler or Mussolini afford the same ?
2/ About 40% of the US combat losses were caused by the Japanese and about 60% by the Germans. It means that they lost about 250 000 in the European war and some 150 000 fighting for the new colonies that they still occupy.
3/ Thus the combat losses in WW2 were as follows : USSR – 10 000 000 , Yugoslavia - 300 000 (3%), USA - 250 000 (2,5%), Britain – 220 000 (2,2%)including their colonial wars in the Middle East and Indochina.
Such is the truth. But we must say that the USA and Britain SOLD us 10% of the arms and raw materials we had in accordance with the Lend Lease program. The USSR has paid out everything with gold. Such were the allies we had. In 1944 Stalin made a great mistake by saving the Overlord Operation troops with a great offence on Wisla. We could quite finish the war by ourselves.
Serbs and Russians have nothing to prove to each other. Yeltsyn put the only stain in our relations. Even the two great Joes failed to quarrel us. There was only one phrase ( “Russia but only belatedly”) by Factman that drove me crazy. If it were Lenard or Azir I would not pay attention but Serbs must not be so cynic. But it’s OK now.
Jews were saved in the thousands by Nedic in Serbia during WWII, yes Nedic who has been falsely accused as a Nazi collaborator. Ya sure Serboslavia that is why he commemorated Belgrade Serbia being the first Jew free city in Europe, also making commemorated stamps to celebrate the Serbs accomplishment. How come their are more righteous Croatians listed then Serbs in the righteous memorial hall in Israel. Ari Gold my pretend Serb Jewishness quit inflating numbers always it only makes you a look like a pathetic chetnik. Croatians and Israelis are very good friends. They even help us with advance military technology to make our armed forces the best in the region also trade and business. Also 100's of thousands Israelis vacation in beautiful safe Croatia every year. Their school children learn of Croatia http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Meet-the-ambassador-Croatias-Pjer-Simunovic-408664 and take part in exchange programs.
So if we urgently won’t shut you up someone else may also suppose he is free to place such heretic comments here.
(rote, 14 July 2015 17:32)
'
Careful you have just raised the likability index of factman by 500%.
And B92 has let you publish your outlandish rubbish for quite sometime so I doubt you will be able to "stop" anyone from posting.
Ask anybody in this world, what do they know about Croats and they will say great coastline and friendly people. Ask the world about Serbs and ... they will say the destruction of Bosnia or Slobodan Milosevic.
(Bam Bam, 14 July 2015 14:09)
While I'm pretty sure you meant to be the angry pseudo-Croat you want people to think you are, you may be on to something here.
Still, a few problems remain: the first advantage you give Croatia is a geographic constant. The "great coastline" was there during Yugoslavia, the Venetian Republic, and the Hapsburg, Ottoman, Byzantine and Roman empires. It would still be a "great coastline" if it were owned by Guatemalans, so there is nothing inherently "Croatian" about it.
The second is "friendly people" which I'd like to think is part of any country one visits. Again, hardly anything specifically Croatian. One could find "friendly people" in North Korea as well. Saying a country has "friendly people" is like say an ocean has salt water.
As for Serbia, it is true most people don't know it beyond the headlines, but those who do, know that wars and conflicts are part of every country. And the more they discover a place, the more they come to like it. People know Germany but they know there's more than Nazis. People know Serbia but they know there's more than Milosevic. And people know Croatia but they know it's more than Ustashe and attempts at covering up their wartime crimes, which sums up what little to know of that country.
"Zuroff is on a three-day visit to Serbia on the invitation of Labor Minister Aleksandar Vulin. "
I do not really know Zuroff, but is this a "birds of a feather..." case?
If he stays close to Vulin, people will associate him with Vulin. That is not the best association to have.
blah, blah..a russian chauvinist is driveling..we and we ruSSians - u wbeat germans only with the West's help and that goon Hitler was stupid enough to ignore his general staff's plans..ur losses were so huge as u do not care of ur people - like nowadays - tens of thusands in Chechnya, now Ukrainian adventure...And guess - who lives better u or germans? so it was rather a Phyrric victor, wasn't it? russians still live in shit, majority live in poverty and ever growing social stratification is creating a new revolutionary situation - be ready. one more question - when will u come and help KiM Serbs with deeds and not only slogans? or are u afraid of a small nato continent in KiM, or pindosov? hrabrye vatniki...
Our combat losses were 20-30 times bigger than of the 3 you mentioned. Including my Grandpa and 37 other men from my family. SHAME ON YOU !!! Also I believe that spitting at you is not my problem but the moral debt of every Serb here.
(rote, 14 July 2015 16:13) # Comment link
No rightful Serb would ever deny the sacrifice of the Russian soldiers especially during WWII. Needless to say , if it wasn't for the sacrifice of both Russian soldiers and civilians in Stalingrad , Leningrad and outside of Moscow, Hitler may have succeeded.
That being said, per-capita, Serbia is second to USSR in loss of life in both WWI and WWII.
Finally, it was unfortunate to see the traitor Yeltsin leading Russia during the Yugoslavia civil war which led to the Dayton Accords and UN resolution 1244 in Kosovo which Europe and US have reneged on. The story would have been much different with a strong Russian under Putin, that is all Serbia needed is political support at that time. It did not get it.
“Only 3 European countries stood up to Hitler.
- England
- Greece
- Serbia
- Russia (but only belatedly)”
(factman, 14 July 2015 15:06)
I cannot stop now so tell me what losses had the Germans suffered before June 22/1941 ? I mean the combat losses caused by the Brits in their “Strange War” , by the Royal Army of Yugoslavia, by the Chetniks of Mikhailovic and by the Greek. What were the figures that made you put the USSR in the second row ? Don’t forget that the real partisan movement started in 1942. All attempts of 1941 were failed be it in Yugoslavia or the USSR. To say nothing of Britain that conducted their colonial wars in the Middle East and Indochina but not in Europe where the real WW2 took place. Shame on you ! You must be a wrong Serb from G-17 or Otpor. But even if so how can you be so hypocrite ? None of the Albanians or a Croat here had ever questioned the great Victory of the USSR. So if we urgently won’t shut you up someone else may also suppose he is free to place such heretic comments here.
Ok Azir, I'll take the bait since you're clearly fishing for attention and I've some time to challenge the history you get from box tops and gum wrappers with empirical data.
Myth: All Jews in Albania were spared because of "Besa".
Reality: Albania was occupied by Italy which was a lot more tolerant of the people it occupied than the Germans. Rounding up undesirables was not part of their program unless they were forced to do so. Add the fact that the number of Jews in Albania at the time was statistically insignificant compared with other places, and Albania was rather peripheral and unimportant to the larger war effort. The survival of Jews has more to do with Albania's obscurity than any special feeling Albanians had for them, which was no different than other places in Europe where people went out of their way to hide Jews.
In Albanian-occupied Kosovo, things were much different as direct Albanian collaboration with the Nazis saw the small Jewish population rounded up and sent to camps in Poland and Ustasha-controlled Serbia. After Italy's capitulation, the Germans found an ally in Xhafer Deva who quickly went to work exterminating people the Italians tried earlier to protect. In total, about 600 Jews were killed in Albanian controlled areas by the end of the war - mostly in Kosovo and Macedonia.
"Besa" may have had some hand in saving Jews, but more likely it's a story reworked by Hoxha after the war to bury memories of Albanian wartime collaboration.
Did I mention we were also occupied by the NAZIs but many Albanians risked their lives to save Jews.
Whereas conveniently Belgrade murdered them all.
We gave our word,BESA, that Jewish safety would prevail....and it did.
Jews never committed GENOCIDE so I agree that Jews and Serbs in the same sentence are not normal.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 11:33) # Comment link
I don't know if this idiot's comments should be published, some normal Albanians might believe what is coming out of his mouth.
Albanian declared war against the US and was part of the Axis and Italy. Albanian together with Italy tried to invade Greece in 1940 and was soundly trounced.
To compare the so called Srebrenica to Genocide is an affront to all Jews who died across Europe at the hands of the Nazi's and that included the Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Croats who died in in Jasenovac and throughout Yugoslavia.
Jews were saved in the thousands by Nedic in Serbia during WWII, yes Nedic who has been falsely accused as a Nazi collaborator.
The SS Skanderbeg division (Albanian Nazi's) and the Handzak (Bosnian Muslims) Nazi divisions participated in mass murders during WWII and even fought in the Russian front along with Croatian, Bulgarian and Romanian soldiers who were part of the Axis front.
Jasanovac and other war crimes in Yugoslavia are well documented in the Nuremburg trials, maybe you should read them.
Rote, no disrespect. And may it be known that the USSR almost single handedly defeated the Nazi machine (and paid an enormous human price in doing so).
The US had a big part of the victory too, but only after the USSR severely weakened the Nazi's.
I was only alluding to the fact that the USSR was a little late to the party (but better late than never)!
“Only 3 European countries stood up to Hitler.
- England
- Greece
- Serbia
- Russia (but only belatedly)”
(factman, 14 July 2015 15:06)
HOW DARE YOU ! Today you’ve got my first “poor comment” because I stopped reading at this place the BS of yours. It’s not only because we have won the war almost alone and we would win it in any case and at any cost. Even if the Brits, Serbs and Greeks also joined Hitler. Not only because before today you looked a descent Serb but because the USSR was the only state in the world that was ready to kill the beast in genesis. Since 1938 when we tried to make a joint front to help Czechoslovakia and after the Brits and the French refused we were ready to send our troops alone. But the Poles did not allow us pass their territory while the US and Britain financed and armed Hitler. They all talk about Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact now but they keep silence about the reasons that compelled us to sign it. You (ВЛАГАЛИЩЕ) disappointed me very much. Think before you open your mouth. “BELATEDLY” we granted 27 million of our beloved people on the altar of the Victory that you now divide among yourself. Our combat losses were 20-30 times bigger than of the 3 you mentioned. Including my Grandpa and 37 other men from my family. SHAME ON YOU !!! Also I believe that spitting at you is not my problem but the moral debt of every Serb here.
"Of course genocide happened (in the NDH). Not only against the Jews, but also against the Serbs - and much more than against the Jews," Zuroff, who is currently visiting Serbia, told the daily Politika.
MAYBE THE OOPSITE – NOT ONLY AGAINST SERBS BUT ALSO AGAINST THE JEWS ? IF ONLY ONE JEW ISN’T MORE IMPORTANT THAT 13 SERBS.
So Azir how much do you get paid to troll Serbian sites? Do you even have a normal job because just about every post you made is at the time when normal people are at work.
I am please to see Jews and Serbs mentioned in the same sentence.
The continued silence of influential US jews (not Israeli ones) on the role of the NDH, Tudjman, Izetbegovic and his clan is shameful. They kept their silence when Tudjman, Holocaust denier and anti-semite was invited by Bill Clinton to the opening of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (which also denies genocide against the Serbs by the Ustasi).
Only Israel stood up for the Serbs and put up RTB on their satellite when Eutelsat cut them off.
The continued attempts to pin 'genocide' on Serbs to somehow make it equivalent to the Holocaust or Croat/Bosnian moslem genocide in world war two is shameful in the extreme.
I'm glad the Serbs refuse to put up with this BS and the morons who are pushing it.
The good news is that real, every day Jews (i.e. ones who don't find it politik to ape whatever the West says) know this only too well. Unfortunately their views are routinely ignored, with only the fruitcakes getting a voice (here's looking at you New York Times/American media)
Azir I asked you to provide verifiable evidence to your false allegations about SerbNet paying Gen. McKenzie millions of dollars to spread propaganda and this is your response?
"Nejgro you can search the Lord Byron Foundation for Balkan Studies with Milan Petrovic's PR Firm.
You will find Serbs signing PR contracts to pay 100,000 per month since the Spring of 2006."
Please tell me what this has to do with SerbNet? I guess you couldn't back up your ridiculous claims...again. And Milan Petrovic's firm, Advanced Practical Solutions is a lobbying firm designed to secure business contracts for its clients. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with the war in Bosnia. In fact, it didn't even exist in the 90s. The war ended in 1995. Don't bring something up completely off topic 11 years later in 2006. You are pathetic. If the Serb gov't. paid a plumber to fix leaky pipes, would you claim that they were paying for propaganda? You're a joke.
More from the coward: "Your American Council of Kosovo also was created to spread lies." No verifiable sources from Azir again. Just more hot air.
Azir, please try to stick to the timeframe with which the war was fought 92-95 and provide facts to your ficticous comments about SerbNet. If you're telling the truth, this shouldn't be so hard, should it Azir? In a face to face debate you wouldn't last 30 seconds. This is too easy!
I see Azir is working overtime here. In all of your research you fail to mention the Bali Kobetar and the SS Skanderbeg Division. No worries Azir, I'll help you out. Both of these Albanian organizations were aligned with the Nazis during WWII and were espesially brutal in their attacks on Serb and Macedonian civilians in and around Kosovo.
Isn't it interesting that Azir goes out of his way to portray Albanians as friends to the Jews in a response to an article that has nothing to do with Albania or Albanians.
Well Azir, try as you may to rewrite the history books, but it is clear that Albanians aligned themselves with Nazi Germany and we all know what their policy was toward the Jews. And since you have disputed the number of 700,000 killed at Jasenovac by your Ustasha friends, do you also dispute the generally accepted number of 6 million Jews killed during WWII also?
You have gone out of your way trying to convince us that Albanians have historically been the friends of Jews, yet you have praised the killing Croatian machine of Jasenovac as something good many times on this site. Tens of thousands of Jews were killed at Jasenovac by your Croatian fascist friends Azir. Please address your contridictions. Once again you have been exposed as the fraud that you are talking out of both sides of that big mouth of yours.
LOL wow five from comments from Azir the Fool who sounds like his head is about to explode with rage. Hey Azir, you actually believe the sh!t you write or are you just trying to get people angry with your blatant lies and insults. Besides, this article talks about genocide by the NDH. What does this have to even DO with Albania? LOL are you THAT paranoid about FACTS that you have to sound like a complete idiot? LOL Someone get this kid a change of diapers cuz he's poopin a load today!
Of course genocide happened. Even SS soldiers were revolted at what Croats did at the death camps they ran. Croats always try to please their German masters.
Ustashe also killed a lot of croats and muslims, but you just kerp repeating your propaganda how serbs and jews were victims who did nothing wrong. How many croatian civilians were killed by people like Moshe Pijade alone.
Ask anybody in this world, what do they know about Croats and they will say great coastline and friendly people. Ask the world about Serbs and 9 times out of 10 they will say the destruction of Bosnia or Slobodan Milosevic. The Serbian government lost the wars on the ground and they will certainly lose the political battle. The days of using Tito to spread your lies are over...!
ews never committed GENOCIDE so I agree that Jews and Serbs in the same sentence are not normal.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 11:33) # Comment lin
s
Neither did Serbs but both Jews and Serbs were victims of genocide just like this gentleman says. Oh and about the albanians you conveniently forgot to mention SS Skenderbeg and the millions of albs fighting with the nazis.
This is the same person that doesn't believe genocide occurred in Srebrenica. He said:
"As far as I know, what happened there is not the description or the definition of genocide. I think the decision to call it genocide was made for political reasons."
Serbs seem to be very envious of Croatia, I've never been to Croatia personally or serbia... So you are getting the utmost unbiased opinion. Serbians seem to hold grudges against Croatia because they have been surpassed by Croatia. You look at the numbers in general, Croatia is headed to a much better future in comparison to Serbia.
Srebreniza Genocide is another challenge for Serbs to overcome. As long as radical serbians like yourself keep on downplaying the severity of crimes committed throughout Bosnia, and the genocide in srebreniza in particular... I don't see Serbs moving forward but backward with the world watching you; how shocking it is to hear it from an entire nation pretend as nothing happened. I think I mentioned this once already, EP and U.S. have both adopted genocide resolutions. Most serbian immigrants either live in EU countries or U.S. Russia did veto UN resolutio, but tell me why most serbian immigrants have chosen western countries for a better life? Why not pick Russia since e you claim Russia is on the rise? It is you mother isn't?
Albania is the ONLY country to have saved every single one of its own Jew residents and every Holocaust survivor that escaped to Albania ...Europe's true safe haven .
Did I mention we were also occupied by the NAZIs but many Albanians risked their lives to save Jews.
Whereas conviently Belgrade murdered them all.
We gave our word,BESA, that Jewish safety would prevail....and it did.
Jews never committed GENOCIDE so I agree that Jews and Serbs in the same sentence are not normal.
Serbs are noticeably fond of exaggerating alleged victim count on Jasenovic.
First it was 600,00 all Serbs then others then 700,000 then.....
Here is the question that will expose your nonsense:
Can anyone honest Serb ,of that was possible, name your "victims" in Jasenovic like Bosnia that DNA documented and positively identified all the Genocide victims at Srebrenica????
If Serbs did In fact suffer "Genocide" then why didn't you people go to court?
Criminals never go to court voluntarily ...
That's why!
Please do not mention Jews and Serbs in the same sentence.
(Josef Klein, 14 July 2015 10:33)
Why not? Both were the primary targets of genocide by Nazi Germany and her puppet Croatia. 700, 000 at Jasenovac, 40, 000 at Jadovno, 60, 000 at Kozara, 20, 000 at Stara Gradiska
And there were about 20 more camps throughout the Croatian Nazi NDH. THAT my friends is the definition of genocide. Not 8000 soldiers who were abandoned by their coward of a leader Naser Oric who fled with his tail between his legs.
Please do not mention Jews and Serbs in the same sentence.
(Josef Klein, 14 July 2015 10:33)
Why not? Both were the primary targets of genocide by Nazi Germany and her puppet Croatia. 700, 000 at Jasenovac, 40, 000 at Jadovno, 60, 000 at Kozara, 20, 000 at Stara Gradiska
And there were about 20 more camps throughout the Croatian Nazi NDH. THAT my friends is the definition of genocide. Not 8000 soldiers who were abandoned by their coward of a leader Naser Oric who fled with his tail between his legs.
ews never committed GENOCIDE so I agree that Jews and Serbs in the same sentence are not normal.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 11:33) # Comment lin
s
Neither did Serbs but both Jews and Serbs were victims of genocide just like this gentleman says. Oh and about the albanians you conveniently forgot to mention SS Skenderbeg and the millions of albs fighting with the nazis.
So Azir how much do you get paid to troll Serbian sites? Do you even have a normal job because just about every post you made is at the time when normal people are at work.
This is the same person that doesn't believe genocide occurred in Srebrenica. He said:
"As far as I know, what happened there is not the description or the definition of genocide. I think the decision to call it genocide was made for political reasons."
LOL wow five from comments from Azir the Fool who sounds like his head is about to explode with rage. Hey Azir, you actually believe the sh!t you write or are you just trying to get people angry with your blatant lies and insults. Besides, this article talks about genocide by the NDH. What does this have to even DO with Albania? LOL are you THAT paranoid about FACTS that you have to sound like a complete idiot? LOL Someone get this kid a change of diapers cuz he's poopin a load today!
I see Azir is working overtime here. In all of your research you fail to mention the Bali Kobetar and the SS Skanderbeg Division. No worries Azir, I'll help you out. Both of these Albanian organizations were aligned with the Nazis during WWII and were espesially brutal in their attacks on Serb and Macedonian civilians in and around Kosovo.
Isn't it interesting that Azir goes out of his way to portray Albanians as friends to the Jews in a response to an article that has nothing to do with Albania or Albanians.
Well Azir, try as you may to rewrite the history books, but it is clear that Albanians aligned themselves with Nazi Germany and we all know what their policy was toward the Jews. And since you have disputed the number of 700,000 killed at Jasenovac by your Ustasha friends, do you also dispute the generally accepted number of 6 million Jews killed during WWII also?
You have gone out of your way trying to convince us that Albanians have historically been the friends of Jews, yet you have praised the killing Croatian machine of Jasenovac as something good many times on this site. Tens of thousands of Jews were killed at Jasenovac by your Croatian fascist friends Azir. Please address your contridictions. Once again you have been exposed as the fraud that you are talking out of both sides of that big mouth of yours.
Of course genocide happened. Even SS soldiers were revolted at what Croats did at the death camps they ran. Croats always try to please their German masters.
Azir I asked you to provide verifiable evidence to your false allegations about SerbNet paying Gen. McKenzie millions of dollars to spread propaganda and this is your response?
"Nejgro you can search the Lord Byron Foundation for Balkan Studies with Milan Petrovic's PR Firm.
You will find Serbs signing PR contracts to pay 100,000 per month since the Spring of 2006."
Please tell me what this has to do with SerbNet? I guess you couldn't back up your ridiculous claims...again. And Milan Petrovic's firm, Advanced Practical Solutions is a lobbying firm designed to secure business contracts for its clients. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with the war in Bosnia. In fact, it didn't even exist in the 90s. The war ended in 1995. Don't bring something up completely off topic 11 years later in 2006. You are pathetic. If the Serb gov't. paid a plumber to fix leaky pipes, would you claim that they were paying for propaganda? You're a joke.
More from the coward: "Your American Council of Kosovo also was created to spread lies." No verifiable sources from Azir again. Just more hot air.
Azir, please try to stick to the timeframe with which the war was fought 92-95 and provide facts to your ficticous comments about SerbNet. If you're telling the truth, this shouldn't be so hard, should it Azir? In a face to face debate you wouldn't last 30 seconds. This is too easy!
Did I mention we were also occupied by the NAZIs but many Albanians risked their lives to save Jews.
Whereas conveniently Belgrade murdered them all.
We gave our word,BESA, that Jewish safety would prevail....and it did.
Jews never committed GENOCIDE so I agree that Jews and Serbs in the same sentence are not normal.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 11:33) # Comment link
I don't know if this idiot's comments should be published, some normal Albanians might believe what is coming out of his mouth.
Albanian declared war against the US and was part of the Axis and Italy. Albanian together with Italy tried to invade Greece in 1940 and was soundly trounced.
To compare the so called Srebrenica to Genocide is an affront to all Jews who died across Europe at the hands of the Nazi's and that included the Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Croats who died in in Jasenovac and throughout Yugoslavia.
Jews were saved in the thousands by Nedic in Serbia during WWII, yes Nedic who has been falsely accused as a Nazi collaborator.
The SS Skanderbeg division (Albanian Nazi's) and the Handzak (Bosnian Muslims) Nazi divisions participated in mass murders during WWII and even fought in the Russian front along with Croatian, Bulgarian and Romanian soldiers who were part of the Axis front.
Jasanovac and other war crimes in Yugoslavia are well documented in the Nuremburg trials, maybe you should read them.
I am please to see Jews and Serbs mentioned in the same sentence.
The continued silence of influential US jews (not Israeli ones) on the role of the NDH, Tudjman, Izetbegovic and his clan is shameful. They kept their silence when Tudjman, Holocaust denier and anti-semite was invited by Bill Clinton to the opening of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (which also denies genocide against the Serbs by the Ustasi).
Only Israel stood up for the Serbs and put up RTB on their satellite when Eutelsat cut them off.
The continued attempts to pin 'genocide' on Serbs to somehow make it equivalent to the Holocaust or Croat/Bosnian moslem genocide in world war two is shameful in the extreme.
I'm glad the Serbs refuse to put up with this BS and the morons who are pushing it.
The good news is that real, every day Jews (i.e. ones who don't find it politik to ape whatever the West says) know this only too well. Unfortunately their views are routinely ignored, with only the fruitcakes getting a voice (here's looking at you New York Times/American media)
Ok Azir, I'll take the bait since you're clearly fishing for attention and I've some time to challenge the history you get from box tops and gum wrappers with empirical data.
Myth: All Jews in Albania were spared because of "Besa".
Reality: Albania was occupied by Italy which was a lot more tolerant of the people it occupied than the Germans. Rounding up undesirables was not part of their program unless they were forced to do so. Add the fact that the number of Jews in Albania at the time was statistically insignificant compared with other places, and Albania was rather peripheral and unimportant to the larger war effort. The survival of Jews has more to do with Albania's obscurity than any special feeling Albanians had for them, which was no different than other places in Europe where people went out of their way to hide Jews.
In Albanian-occupied Kosovo, things were much different as direct Albanian collaboration with the Nazis saw the small Jewish population rounded up and sent to camps in Poland and Ustasha-controlled Serbia. After Italy's capitulation, the Germans found an ally in Xhafer Deva who quickly went to work exterminating people the Italians tried earlier to protect. In total, about 600 Jews were killed in Albanian controlled areas by the end of the war - mostly in Kosovo and Macedonia.
"Besa" may have had some hand in saving Jews, but more likely it's a story reworked by Hoxha after the war to bury memories of Albanian wartime collaboration.
Serbs are noticeably fond of exaggerating alleged victim count on Jasenovic.
First it was 600,00 all Serbs then others then 700,000 then.....
Here is the question that will expose your nonsense:
Can anyone honest Serb ,of that was possible, name your "victims" in Jasenovic like Bosnia that DNA documented and positively identified all the Genocide victims at Srebrenica????
If Serbs did In fact suffer "Genocide" then why didn't you people go to court?
Criminals never go to court voluntarily ...
That's why!
Ask anybody in this world, what do they know about Croats and they will say great coastline and friendly people. Ask the world about Serbs and 9 times out of 10 they will say the destruction of Bosnia or Slobodan Milosevic. The Serbian government lost the wars on the ground and they will certainly lose the political battle. The days of using Tito to spread your lies are over...!
Our combat losses were 20-30 times bigger than of the 3 you mentioned. Including my Grandpa and 37 other men from my family. SHAME ON YOU !!! Also I believe that spitting at you is not my problem but the moral debt of every Serb here.
(rote, 14 July 2015 16:13) # Comment link
No rightful Serb would ever deny the sacrifice of the Russian soldiers especially during WWII. Needless to say , if it wasn't for the sacrifice of both Russian soldiers and civilians in Stalingrad , Leningrad and outside of Moscow, Hitler may have succeeded.
That being said, per-capita, Serbia is second to USSR in loss of life in both WWI and WWII.
Finally, it was unfortunate to see the traitor Yeltsin leading Russia during the Yugoslavia civil war which led to the Dayton Accords and UN resolution 1244 in Kosovo which Europe and US have reneged on. The story would have been much different with a strong Russian under Putin, that is all Serbia needed is political support at that time. It did not get it.
Jews were saved in the thousands by Nedic in Serbia during WWII, yes Nedic who has been falsely accused as a Nazi collaborator. Ya sure Serboslavia that is why he commemorated Belgrade Serbia being the first Jew free city in Europe, also making commemorated stamps to celebrate the Serbs accomplishment. How come their are more righteous Croatians listed then Serbs in the righteous memorial hall in Israel. Ari Gold my pretend Serb Jewishness quit inflating numbers always it only makes you a look like a pathetic chetnik. Croatians and Israelis are very good friends. They even help us with advance military technology to make our armed forces the best in the region also trade and business. Also 100's of thousands Israelis vacation in beautiful safe Croatia every year. Their school children learn of Croatia http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Meet-the-ambassador-Croatias-Pjer-Simunovic-408664 and take part in exchange programs.
Albania is the ONLY country to have saved every single one of its own Jew residents and every Holocaust survivor that escaped to Albania ...Europe's true safe haven .
Did I mention we were also occupied by the NAZIs but many Albanians risked their lives to save Jews.
Whereas conviently Belgrade murdered them all.
We gave our word,BESA, that Jewish safety would prevail....and it did.
Jews never committed GENOCIDE so I agree that Jews and Serbs in the same sentence are not normal.
Ask anybody in this world, what do they know about Croats and they will say great coastline and friendly people. Ask the world about Serbs and ... they will say the destruction of Bosnia or Slobodan Milosevic.
(Bam Bam, 14 July 2015 14:09)
While I'm pretty sure you meant to be the angry pseudo-Croat you want people to think you are, you may be on to something here.
Still, a few problems remain: the first advantage you give Croatia is a geographic constant. The "great coastline" was there during Yugoslavia, the Venetian Republic, and the Hapsburg, Ottoman, Byzantine and Roman empires. It would still be a "great coastline" if it were owned by Guatemalans, so there is nothing inherently "Croatian" about it.
The second is "friendly people" which I'd like to think is part of any country one visits. Again, hardly anything specifically Croatian. One could find "friendly people" in North Korea as well. Saying a country has "friendly people" is like say an ocean has salt water.
As for Serbia, it is true most people don't know it beyond the headlines, but those who do, know that wars and conflicts are part of every country. And the more they discover a place, the more they come to like it. People know Germany but they know there's more than Nazis. People know Serbia but they know there's more than Milosevic. And people know Croatia but they know it's more than Ustashe and attempts at covering up their wartime crimes, which sums up what little to know of that country.
I wonder, of all the Albanian trolls here who consider the Srebrenica massacre a "genocide", how many of them consider the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima a localised genocide? If not, please explain why? I'd be interested to know.
(Zoran, 14 July 2015 21:05)
It's the international community that considers Srebrenica's massacre "genocide", not just the Albanian trolls.
Not sure what a "localized genocide" is! There is no such a crime called "localized genocide".
But if you meant to say the crime of genocide, the answer is very simple. Because the international community has not determined beyond reasonable doubt that what happened in Hiroshima amounted to the crime of genocide. On the other hand, the international community has determined beyond reasonable doubt that what happened in Rwanda in 1994 and in Srebrenica in 1995 did amount to the crime of genocide.
The reason why the international community has not determined that what happened in Hiroshima amounted to the crime of genocide is because (1) nobody can be convicted for genocide in Hiroshima because such a crime did not exist at that time and (2) even if the crime of genocide were to exist at that time, what happened in Hiroshima does not fit the international community's definition of genocide https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%2078/volume-78-I-1021-English.pdf (see article 2).
Serbs and Russians have nothing to prove to each other. Yeltsyn put the only stain in our relations. Even the two great Joes failed to quarrel us. There was only one phrase ( “Russia but only belatedly”) by Factman that drove me crazy. If it were Lenard or Azir I would not pay attention but Serbs must not be so cynic. But it’s OK now.
I wonder, of all the Albanian trolls here who consider the Srebrenica massacre a "genocide", how many of them consider the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima a localised genocide? If not, please explain why? I'd be interested to know.
@ Balkan Anthropologist
1. As much as you don't know and even don't understand this "MYTH", because it is not in your culture, and as much as i will try to explain i'm sure you will not understand it.
2. The fascists Italians were tolerant?
Did they ordered Albania to consign the Jews? Yes!
Did HITLER send to Albania the ORDER to consign the Jews?
Yes, THEY ordered Albania to consign the Jews and Albanian Government REFUSE! FACT!!!!!!
Albania was the only country in EU that broke the Hitler order and refused to consign the Jews.
Albania was the only country in EU that continue to give Visa to Jews, when no one else in Eu gave to them. ( is enough, no, for a small country against the two superpowers ).
That "MYTH" that you talking about is not "mythificated" by Albanians and more less from Hoxha, but from the survivor of Holocaust in Albania and from the numerous Jews who survived thanks to Albanian people.
Is unknown the nr. of Jews who came in Albania from neighboring country and albanian people helped them to cross the border for going is safe countries.
3. And a to important fact that you don't know is that after the capitulation of Italy - Germans killed all the Italian they found in Albania and even in Greece. OH, you don't know?
Now, could you tell to me how could they helped the Jews?
In fact you should read a little more reliable historic site, and you will find that the albanian people saved even a lot of Italians, thanks to that "myth" called "Besa".
Italians has lost every battle they took part in. Even Stalingrad started with the 2-nd Italian Army where we broke the front. Their biggest problem is that they started to believe in the never existed Roman Empire. To be exact that Italy was not a colony of the Empire but the Metropolis. It always served them bad service. They cook good pizza, play good football, sew good dresses ect. But they never had balls and their children will also loose every war. They are positive and old traditional people but who the hell told them that they are warriors ?
s were saved in the thousands by Nedic in Serbia during WWII, yes Nedic who has been falsely accused as a Nazi collaborator. Ya sure Serboslavia that is why he commemorated Belgrade Serbia being the first Jew free city in Europe, also making commemorated stamps to celebrate the Serbs accomplishment. How come their are more righteous Croatians listed then Serbs in the righteous memorial hall in Israel.
(Lenard, 14 July 2015 18:18)
You are going by a stamp that was issued by the Nazi's? General Nedic did not have a chance to defend himself as the Serbian Communist Rankovic through him off the roof without trial. Something similar to the Croatian War Criminal Cardinal Stipinac who went out the back door of the Communist Trial System. Or Croatian Cardinal Father Draganovic who is still alive in Canada responsible for funneling Nazi's into South America.
As for the Croatian Genocidal Holocaust, it is well documented that over 750,000 Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Croats perished at the hands of the Croatian Nazi State, care to deny it? Some Croatian Ustasha churches still have a service for Croatian Nazi Puppet Leader Ante Pavelic, are you one of those?
Serbs seem to be very envious of Croatia, I've never been to Croatia personally or serbia... So you are getting the utmost unbiased opinion. Serbians seem to hold grudges against Croatia because they have been surpassed by Croatia. You look at the numbers in general, Croatia is headed to a much better future in comparison to Serbia.
Srebreniza Genocide is another challenge for Serbs to overcome. As long as radical serbians like yourself keep on downplaying the severity of crimes committed throughout Bosnia, and the genocide in srebreniza in particular... I don't see Serbs moving forward but backward with the world watching you; how shocking it is to hear it from an entire nation pretend as nothing happened. I think I mentioned this once already, EP and U.S. have both adopted genocide resolutions. Most serbian immigrants either live in EU countries or U.S. Russia did veto UN resolutio, but tell me why most serbian immigrants have chosen western countries for a better life? Why not pick Russia since e you claim Russia is on the rise? It is you mother isn't?
Ustashe also killed a lot of croats and muslims, but you just kerp repeating your propaganda how serbs and jews were victims who did nothing wrong. How many croatian civilians were killed by people like Moshe Pijade alone.
“Only 3 European countries stood up to Hitler.
- England
- Greece
- Serbia
- Russia (but only belatedly)”
(factman, 14 July 2015 15:06)
HOW DARE YOU ! Today you’ve got my first “poor comment” because I stopped reading at this place the BS of yours. It’s not only because we have won the war almost alone and we would win it in any case and at any cost. Even if the Brits, Serbs and Greeks also joined Hitler. Not only because before today you looked a descent Serb but because the USSR was the only state in the world that was ready to kill the beast in genesis. Since 1938 when we tried to make a joint front to help Czechoslovakia and after the Brits and the French refused we were ready to send our troops alone. But the Poles did not allow us pass their territory while the US and Britain financed and armed Hitler. They all talk about Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact now but they keep silence about the reasons that compelled us to sign it. You (ВЛАГАЛИЩЕ) disappointed me very much. Think before you open your mouth. “BELATEDLY” we granted 27 million of our beloved people on the altar of the Victory that you now divide among yourself. Our combat losses were 20-30 times bigger than of the 3 you mentioned. Including my Grandpa and 37 other men from my family. SHAME ON YOU !!! Also I believe that spitting at you is not my problem but the moral debt of every Serb here.
FACTMAN : “The US had a big part of the victory too”
Yes of course and their combat losses formally were second big after the USSR. They made about 4% of our combat losses ( 400 000 against 10 000 000) but if we go into the details interesting things can be found :
1/ The USA conducted two wars at the time. One was WW2 and the other a colonial war of their own. Japan never took part in WW2 and Hitler called them traitors. Japanese PM was coming to Moscow in 1942 and spent there a whole month. He twice met with Stalin. So I ask could Hitler or Mussolini afford the same ?
2/ About 40% of the US combat losses were caused by the Japanese and about 60% by the Germans. It means that they lost about 250 000 in the European war and some 150 000 fighting for the new colonies that they still occupy.
3/ Thus the combat losses in WW2 were as follows : USSR – 10 000 000 , Yugoslavia - 300 000 (3%), USA - 250 000 (2,5%), Britain – 220 000 (2,2%)including their colonial wars in the Middle East and Indochina.
Such is the truth. But we must say that the USA and Britain SOLD us 10% of the arms and raw materials we had in accordance with the Lend Lease program. The USSR has paid out everything with gold. Such were the allies we had. In 1944 Stalin made a great mistake by saving the Overlord Operation troops with a great offence on Wisla. We could quite finish the war by ourselves.
@rote don't trust the Serbs they will be the first to throw you and Russia under the bus.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 19:35)
============================
You are not only desperate, but stupid too.
@ Balkan Anthropologist
"Besa" for us is not a myth, and it is not a "moral conscience"- to us is like un unwritten law.
And sorry, that Albania get out from the "FRAMES' in WWII, but have you ever listen about Adolf Hitler? Is that thin guy who exterminate people for more less than that..
@ route
1. Albanians here are free to give their opinion as much as you are. And as i know the majority of Albanians don't hate Russians and no one else from slavic people except Serbs.
That "parody" state which are you talking about, REFUSED to consign the jews before and during the occupation. And helped not only jews, but even other minority from the concentration camps.
And i don't know to much about jews in Italy, but as i have learn a lot of Italian Jews died in concentration camps, from the proclamation of law "of the pure race"(?) made by Mussolini. The same law that Italians bring in Albania.
And yes, Albania was not a AXIS supporter is ranged as an "ALLY" country in the war against Germans and you must like you or not.
And about the Jews - a little small country with ~ 3 million inhabitants to easy to exterminate from the Nazi machine risked their lives - to do that what other big and powerful country did not. Yes, Albanians fought for their freedom and for this we are in anti-Hitler front side. And you must like it ore not!!!
*I never thank you, and your government for sending to Albanian ARMY the invitation for take part in the Victory Day Parade! Thank you!:)
Facts speak louder than words, Serbia never declared war on the US or Allies even under Nazi occupation, the same cannot be said for Croatia and Albania.
14 December 1941 – Croatia declared war on the United States of America and Great Britain.
16 December 1941 – Czechoslovak government in exile declares war on all countries at war with the United States of America, Great Britain and the Soviet Union.
17 December 1941 – Albania declared war on the United States of America.
Rote, no disrespect. And may it be known that the USSR almost single handedly defeated the Nazi machine (and paid an enormous human price in doing so).
The US had a big part of the victory too, but only after the USSR severely weakened the Nazi's.
I was only alluding to the fact that the USSR was a little late to the party (but better late than never)!
Yes of course and their combat losses formally were second big after the USSR. They made about 4% of our combat losses ( 400 000 against 10 000 000)
(rote, 14 July 2015 19:50)
Sure, but blame comrade Stalin for that. The USSR should have been able to resist the German invasion and win with a fraction of the 10 million, but comrade Stalin, in his quest for absolutely power and elimination of all enemies, real and imaginary, had destroyed the USSR's economy and armed forces making a country of the USSR's size an easy prey for Germany in the first year of the war. His paranoia was such that even when it was obvious that Germany was preparing to attack (how could the amassing of millions of soldiers go unnoticed!), he was thinking that the intelligence abount the imminent German attack was a ploy by the British to draw the USSR in the war and ordered the USSR armed forces not to be put on alert in order not to provoke Hitler!
Whereas the US relied on the technology and economy to win the war, and not on throwing millions of people to be slaughtered or cavalry to fight against the German panzers. It is being smart that wins the wars not heroism; heroism was the main factor in the medieval times, not in the industrial era...
“blame comrade Stalin for that … a country of the USSR's size an easy prey for Germany … US relied on the technology … being smart that wins the wars not heroism; heroism was the main factor in the medieval times”
Court I am not going to explain things to a Russo/Serbophobe like you. But would like to explain myself to the rest :
1/ Stalin is still the most popular politician in our history. Most things said about him in the West are false. But what I agree with you is that the start of the war was his biggest sin against our people. And it wasn't one mistake but plenty of them derived from his theory of a counter attack war. Also you must know that the plot of the Soviet generals in 1941 was for real and in 1945 Stalin was back to the item. But many of the generals became heroes and Marshals so he had to close the prosecution.
2/ Americans fought quite well and they were not lacking heroism. Also they had no technical advantage. Some American arms were better some worse. I am grateful to every nation that fought on our side and the whole thing was raised here because of one bad phrase questioning the USSR's role. So I was that emotional. But anyway we don’t need an Albanian to judge us. Despite the 20 000 partisans Albania was far from being a part of the anti-Hitler front you know and only some of you like Joni can join the discussion. Besides it was our family business and we have already settled the things.
So I managed to get two Albanian trolls to attempt to explain why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not genocide.
The first troll, Azir, suggests that the bombing of Pearl Harbor, which was a military complex, justifies the atomic bombing of two Japanese cities and killing 200,000 mainly civilians, men, women, children and the elderly.
The other troll, icj1, suggests that because the crime of genocide did not exists at the time of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, it cannot be recognised as such. However, the genocide in Germany preceded those bombings and is recognised as such. Many countries have also recognised the genocide in Armenia which also precedes those two bombings.
Both seem to suggest that genocide can only be confirmed in court, even on hearsay evidence as presented on Srebrenica. Not taking into consideration that those courts are controlled and manipulated by the very powers that committed genocide numerous times (i.e USA and partners [international community])
Rudolph Joseph Rummel was professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii.
He claims that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were democide. "His definition of democide includes not only genocide, but also an excessive killing of civilians in war, to the extent this is against the agreed rules for warfare; he argues the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes, and thus democide." - Statistics of democide, ch. 13: Death by American bombings and other democide
Zorane, your obviously correct in your assertions but incorrect in wasting valuable time arguing points to these idiots, they are obviously not going to agree anyway, and if they did, who cares. Why do you honestly care what these guys think. Work and invest in yourself and your family. These idiots will still be here in 20 years arguing about the same thing. They were able to work with the demonically possessed US/UK to work in the interest of a select elite that got rich while everyone else got nothing. All that has come to an end with the internet and the distribution of truth. Everyone knows what happened. The self-proclaimed west is half way through in the process of collapse and the BRICS/SCO will take over the reigns of power.
-- The difference between Italian Fascists and German Fascists --
In Bosnia, Serbs were saved by Italians from Germans and Ustasha. This happened so many times that the Italians were relieved of duties and put on mild duty farther west in Croatian and Montenegrin lands. After the war, many (thousands?) Serbs recounted that the Italian military saved their lives.
The Fascist Italian military commander of Bosnia refused to hand over Jews.
The Italians ousted Mussolini in the middle of WW2 and the southern half actually joined the Allies.
Italians failed in taking Greece yet were supplied with much German fire power.
Hitler was enraged by Italian military impotence many times.
Nuremberg was soft on Italians
The Italians were hardly Nazis, let alone fascists.
Germans crushed the countries they wanted eliminated with extreme prejudice.
blah, blah..a russian chauvinist is driveling..we and we ruSSians - u wbeat germans only with the West's help and that goon Hitler was stupid enough to ignore his general staff's plans..ur losses were so huge as u do not care of ur people - like nowadays - tens of thusands in Chechnya, now Ukrainian adventure...And guess - who lives better u or germans? so it was rather a Phyrric victor, wasn't it? russians still live in shit, majority live in poverty and ever growing social stratification is creating a new revolutionary situation - be ready. one more question - when will u come and help KiM Serbs with deeds and not only slogans? or are u afraid of a small nato continent in KiM, or pindosov? hrabrye vatniki...
“Only 3 European countries stood up to Hitler.
- England
- Greece
- Serbia
- Russia (but only belatedly)”
(factman, 14 July 2015 15:06)
I cannot stop now so tell me what losses had the Germans suffered before June 22/1941 ? I mean the combat losses caused by the Brits in their “Strange War” , by the Royal Army of Yugoslavia, by the Chetniks of Mikhailovic and by the Greek. What were the figures that made you put the USSR in the second row ? Don’t forget that the real partisan movement started in 1942. All attempts of 1941 were failed be it in Yugoslavia or the USSR. To say nothing of Britain that conducted their colonial wars in the Middle East and Indochina but not in Europe where the real WW2 took place. Shame on you ! You must be a wrong Serb from G-17 or Otpor. But even if so how can you be so hypocrite ? None of the Albanians or a Croat here had ever questioned the great Victory of the USSR. So if we urgently won’t shut you up someone else may also suppose he is free to place such heretic comments here.
Azir - Where are the answers to my questions? What's wrong? Cat got your tongue? Your moniker as the 'Coward' of B92 has never been more appropriate. Face it Azir, you are a fraud. Your silence is deafening.
icj1, the true international community, which is the United Nations, has not recognised the Srebrenica massacre as a genocide. Now that is a fact. The resolution by the UK failed to be accepted.
Your version of the international community, which consists mainly of the US and EU, is fake and does not represent the international community in its entirety as the UN does.
So if we urgently won’t shut you up someone else may also suppose he is free to place such heretic comments here.
(rote, 14 July 2015 17:32)
'
Careful you have just raised the likability index of factman by 500%.
And B92 has let you publish your outlandish rubbish for quite sometime so I doubt you will be able to "stop" anyone from posting.
Albania was the only country in EU that broke the Hitler order and refused to consign the Jews.
(Joni, 15 July 2015 11:06)
And yet we have evidence that Jews were arrested and sent to camps, mostly from Kosovo but even a few from Albania and those who weren't were still harassed and had their property confiscated. That doesn't mean that Jews weren't protected, it just means that not all were spared. Which is no different than any other Nazi occupied or Nazi collaborating country in Europe. What you call "Besa" the rest of Europe calls having a moral conscience.
DDD, absolutely, normally I wouldn't waste my time replying to trolls but in this particular instance, I invited the opinion of trolls and I got two responses from them. As expected, they were nonsensical but thought I would respond in this case.
"Of course genocide happened (in the NDH). Not only against the Jews, but also against the Serbs - and much more than against the Jews," Zuroff, who is currently visiting Serbia, told the daily Politika.
MAYBE THE OOPSITE – NOT ONLY AGAINST SERBS BUT ALSO AGAINST THE JEWS ? IF ONLY ONE JEW ISN’T MORE IMPORTANT THAT 13 SERBS.
"Zuroff is on a three-day visit to Serbia on the invitation of Labor Minister Aleksandar Vulin. "
I do not really know Zuroff, but is this a "birds of a feather..." case?
If he stays close to Vulin, people will associate him with Vulin. That is not the best association to have.
@rote don't trust the Serbs they will be the first to throw you and Russia under the bus.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 19:35)
We have two “rotes” today and I personally do not need your advice concerning our brothers. For your better understanding last night a read an article about Tesla and you may be surprised but it was located in paragraph called “Русы” … Next came “Code Of Honor Of Russian Officers”, “Heritage of the Old-Believers”, “White Race The Aborigine People of Japan. Ainu.” Ect.
Albania was the only country in EU that broke the Hitler order and refused to consign the Jews.
(Joni, 15)
Albania wasn’t a state yet it was a German parody of a state. The only country outside the USSR that saved their Jews was Italy. Mussolini said they had no Jews and that all were Italians so the discussion was ended. And I heard not a single good word about this strange man who during 21 years of his rule executed only 9 men … USSR and now Russia is the only state that does not admit Holocaust and nobody is even trying to use the pretext to mud us. Because they know that we can prove it easily. The idea of Holocaust appeared in the USA 9 years after WW2 so they do not tease us and we keep silence. By the way among the 12 million evacuated to the eastern regions of the USSR there were lots of Jews. They had little chance to survive and so they were evacuated first. Also our Jews unlike the European ones fought Hitler on the battlefield and they fought very well.
DONT FORGET THE CROATS AND BOSNIAKS KILLED BY PARTIZANS AND CHETNIKS IN WW II AND THE 1990s AND ALL THE PALESTINIANS BUTCHERED BY JEWISH PEOPLE LOOKING TO TAKE THERE LAND.
Serbs are noticeably fond of exaggerating alleged victim count on Jasenovic.
First it was 600,00 all Serbs then others then 700,000 then.....
Here is the question that will expose your nonsense:
Can anyone honest Serb ,of that was possible, name your "victims" in Jasenovic like Bosnia that DNA documented and positively identified all the Genocide victims at Srebrenica????
If Serbs did In fact suffer "Genocide" then why didn't you people go to court?
Criminals never go to court voluntarily ...
That's why!
Serbs seem to be very envious of Croatia, I've never been to Croatia personally or serbia... So you are getting the utmost unbiased opinion. Serbians seem to hold grudges against Croatia because they have been surpassed by Croatia. You look at the numbers in general, Croatia is headed to a much better future in comparison to Serbia.
Srebreniza Genocide is another challenge for Serbs to overcome. As long as radical serbians like yourself keep on downplaying the severity of crimes committed throughout Bosnia, and the genocide in srebreniza in particular... I don't see Serbs moving forward but backward with the world watching you; how shocking it is to hear it from an entire nation pretend as nothing happened. I think I mentioned this once already, EP and U.S. have both adopted genocide resolutions. Most serbian immigrants either live in EU countries or U.S. Russia did veto UN resolutio, but tell me why most serbian immigrants have chosen western countries for a better life? Why not pick Russia since e you claim Russia is on the rise? It is you mother isn't?
Albania is the ONLY country to have saved every single one of its own Jew residents and every Holocaust survivor that escaped to Albania ...Europe's true safe haven .
Did I mention we were also occupied by the NAZIs but many Albanians risked their lives to save Jews.
Whereas conviently Belgrade murdered them all.
We gave our word,BESA, that Jewish safety would prevail....and it did.
Jews never committed GENOCIDE so I agree that Jews and Serbs in the same sentence are not normal.
Ask anybody in this world, what do they know about Croats and they will say great coastline and friendly people. Ask the world about Serbs and 9 times out of 10 they will say the destruction of Bosnia or Slobodan Milosevic. The Serbian government lost the wars on the ground and they will certainly lose the political battle. The days of using Tito to spread your lies are over...!
Please do not mention Jews and Serbs in the same sentence.
(Josef Klein, 14 July 2015 10:33)
Why not? Both were the primary targets of genocide by Nazi Germany and her puppet Croatia. 700, 000 at Jasenovac, 40, 000 at Jadovno, 60, 000 at Kozara, 20, 000 at Stara Gradiska
And there were about 20 more camps throughout the Croatian Nazi NDH. THAT my friends is the definition of genocide. Not 8000 soldiers who were abandoned by their coward of a leader Naser Oric who fled with his tail between his legs.
Ustashe also killed a lot of croats and muslims, but you just kerp repeating your propaganda how serbs and jews were victims who did nothing wrong. How many croatian civilians were killed by people like Moshe Pijade alone.
LOL wow five from comments from Azir the Fool who sounds like his head is about to explode with rage. Hey Azir, you actually believe the sh!t you write or are you just trying to get people angry with your blatant lies and insults. Besides, this article talks about genocide by the NDH. What does this have to even DO with Albania? LOL are you THAT paranoid about FACTS that you have to sound like a complete idiot? LOL Someone get this kid a change of diapers cuz he's poopin a load today!
I wonder, of all the Albanian trolls here who consider the Srebrenica massacre a "genocide", how many of them consider the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima a localised genocide? If not, please explain why? I'd be interested to know.
Azir I asked you to provide verifiable evidence to your false allegations about SerbNet paying Gen. McKenzie millions of dollars to spread propaganda and this is your response?
"Nejgro you can search the Lord Byron Foundation for Balkan Studies with Milan Petrovic's PR Firm.
You will find Serbs signing PR contracts to pay 100,000 per month since the Spring of 2006."
Please tell me what this has to do with SerbNet? I guess you couldn't back up your ridiculous claims...again. And Milan Petrovic's firm, Advanced Practical Solutions is a lobbying firm designed to secure business contracts for its clients. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with the war in Bosnia. In fact, it didn't even exist in the 90s. The war ended in 1995. Don't bring something up completely off topic 11 years later in 2006. You are pathetic. If the Serb gov't. paid a plumber to fix leaky pipes, would you claim that they were paying for propaganda? You're a joke.
More from the coward: "Your American Council of Kosovo also was created to spread lies." No verifiable sources from Azir again. Just more hot air.
Azir, please try to stick to the timeframe with which the war was fought 92-95 and provide facts to your ficticous comments about SerbNet. If you're telling the truth, this shouldn't be so hard, should it Azir? In a face to face debate you wouldn't last 30 seconds. This is too easy!
Ok Azir, I'll take the bait since you're clearly fishing for attention and I've some time to challenge the history you get from box tops and gum wrappers with empirical data.
Myth: All Jews in Albania were spared because of "Besa".
Reality: Albania was occupied by Italy which was a lot more tolerant of the people it occupied than the Germans. Rounding up undesirables was not part of their program unless they were forced to do so. Add the fact that the number of Jews in Albania at the time was statistically insignificant compared with other places, and Albania was rather peripheral and unimportant to the larger war effort. The survival of Jews has more to do with Albania's obscurity than any special feeling Albanians had for them, which was no different than other places in Europe where people went out of their way to hide Jews.
In Albanian-occupied Kosovo, things were much different as direct Albanian collaboration with the Nazis saw the small Jewish population rounded up and sent to camps in Poland and Ustasha-controlled Serbia. After Italy's capitulation, the Germans found an ally in Xhafer Deva who quickly went to work exterminating people the Italians tried earlier to protect. In total, about 600 Jews were killed in Albanian controlled areas by the end of the war - mostly in Kosovo and Macedonia.
"Besa" may have had some hand in saving Jews, but more likely it's a story reworked by Hoxha after the war to bury memories of Albanian wartime collaboration.
Jews were saved in the thousands by Nedic in Serbia during WWII, yes Nedic who has been falsely accused as a Nazi collaborator. Ya sure Serboslavia that is why he commemorated Belgrade Serbia being the first Jew free city in Europe, also making commemorated stamps to celebrate the Serbs accomplishment. How come their are more righteous Croatians listed then Serbs in the righteous memorial hall in Israel. Ari Gold my pretend Serb Jewishness quit inflating numbers always it only makes you a look like a pathetic chetnik. Croatians and Israelis are very good friends. They even help us with advance military technology to make our armed forces the best in the region also trade and business. Also 100's of thousands Israelis vacation in beautiful safe Croatia every year. Their school children learn of Croatia http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Meet-the-ambassador-Croatias-Pjer-Simunovic-408664 and take part in exchange programs.
ews never committed GENOCIDE so I agree that Jews and Serbs in the same sentence are not normal.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 11:33) # Comment lin
s
Neither did Serbs but both Jews and Serbs were victims of genocide just like this gentleman says. Oh and about the albanians you conveniently forgot to mention SS Skenderbeg and the millions of albs fighting with the nazis.
I see Azir is working overtime here. In all of your research you fail to mention the Bali Kobetar and the SS Skanderbeg Division. No worries Azir, I'll help you out. Both of these Albanian organizations were aligned with the Nazis during WWII and were espesially brutal in their attacks on Serb and Macedonian civilians in and around Kosovo.
Isn't it interesting that Azir goes out of his way to portray Albanians as friends to the Jews in a response to an article that has nothing to do with Albania or Albanians.
Well Azir, try as you may to rewrite the history books, but it is clear that Albanians aligned themselves with Nazi Germany and we all know what their policy was toward the Jews. And since you have disputed the number of 700,000 killed at Jasenovac by your Ustasha friends, do you also dispute the generally accepted number of 6 million Jews killed during WWII also?
You have gone out of your way trying to convince us that Albanians have historically been the friends of Jews, yet you have praised the killing Croatian machine of Jasenovac as something good many times on this site. Tens of thousands of Jews were killed at Jasenovac by your Croatian fascist friends Azir. Please address your contridictions. Once again you have been exposed as the fraud that you are talking out of both sides of that big mouth of yours.
Did I mention we were also occupied by the NAZIs but many Albanians risked their lives to save Jews.
Whereas conveniently Belgrade murdered them all.
We gave our word,BESA, that Jewish safety would prevail....and it did.
Jews never committed GENOCIDE so I agree that Jews and Serbs in the same sentence are not normal.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 11:33) # Comment link
I don't know if this idiot's comments should be published, some normal Albanians might believe what is coming out of his mouth.
Albanian declared war against the US and was part of the Axis and Italy. Albanian together with Italy tried to invade Greece in 1940 and was soundly trounced.
To compare the so called Srebrenica to Genocide is an affront to all Jews who died across Europe at the hands of the Nazi's and that included the Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Croats who died in in Jasenovac and throughout Yugoslavia.
Jews were saved in the thousands by Nedic in Serbia during WWII, yes Nedic who has been falsely accused as a Nazi collaborator.
The SS Skanderbeg division (Albanian Nazi's) and the Handzak (Bosnian Muslims) Nazi divisions participated in mass murders during WWII and even fought in the Russian front along with Croatian, Bulgarian and Romanian soldiers who were part of the Axis front.
Jasanovac and other war crimes in Yugoslavia are well documented in the Nuremburg trials, maybe you should read them.
“Only 3 European countries stood up to Hitler.
- England
- Greece
- Serbia
- Russia (but only belatedly)”
(factman, 14 July 2015 15:06)
I cannot stop now so tell me what losses had the Germans suffered before June 22/1941 ? I mean the combat losses caused by the Brits in their “Strange War” , by the Royal Army of Yugoslavia, by the Chetniks of Mikhailovic and by the Greek. What were the figures that made you put the USSR in the second row ? Don’t forget that the real partisan movement started in 1942. All attempts of 1941 were failed be it in Yugoslavia or the USSR. To say nothing of Britain that conducted their colonial wars in the Middle East and Indochina but not in Europe where the real WW2 took place. Shame on you ! You must be a wrong Serb from G-17 or Otpor. But even if so how can you be so hypocrite ? None of the Albanians or a Croat here had ever questioned the great Victory of the USSR. So if we urgently won’t shut you up someone else may also suppose he is free to place such heretic comments here.
Ask anybody in this world, what do they know about Croats and they will say great coastline and friendly people. Ask the world about Serbs and ... they will say the destruction of Bosnia or Slobodan Milosevic.
(Bam Bam, 14 July 2015 14:09)
While I'm pretty sure you meant to be the angry pseudo-Croat you want people to think you are, you may be on to something here.
Still, a few problems remain: the first advantage you give Croatia is a geographic constant. The "great coastline" was there during Yugoslavia, the Venetian Republic, and the Hapsburg, Ottoman, Byzantine and Roman empires. It would still be a "great coastline" if it were owned by Guatemalans, so there is nothing inherently "Croatian" about it.
The second is "friendly people" which I'd like to think is part of any country one visits. Again, hardly anything specifically Croatian. One could find "friendly people" in North Korea as well. Saying a country has "friendly people" is like say an ocean has salt water.
As for Serbia, it is true most people don't know it beyond the headlines, but those who do, know that wars and conflicts are part of every country. And the more they discover a place, the more they come to like it. People know Germany but they know there's more than Nazis. People know Serbia but they know there's more than Milosevic. And people know Croatia but they know it's more than Ustashe and attempts at covering up their wartime crimes, which sums up what little to know of that country.
Azir - Where are the answers to my questions? What's wrong? Cat got your tongue? Your moniker as the 'Coward' of B92 has never been more appropriate. Face it Azir, you are a fraud. Your silence is deafening.
@rote don't trust the Serbs they will be the first to throw you and Russia under the bus.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 19:35)
============================
You are not only desperate, but stupid too.
Facts speak louder than words, Serbia never declared war on the US or Allies even under Nazi occupation, the same cannot be said for Croatia and Albania.
14 December 1941 – Croatia declared war on the United States of America and Great Britain.
16 December 1941 – Czechoslovak government in exile declares war on all countries at war with the United States of America, Great Britain and the Soviet Union.
17 December 1941 – Albania declared war on the United States of America.
This is the same person that doesn't believe genocide occurred in Srebrenica. He said:
"As far as I know, what happened there is not the description or the definition of genocide. I think the decision to call it genocide was made for political reasons."
So Azir how much do you get paid to troll Serbian sites? Do you even have a normal job because just about every post you made is at the time when normal people are at work.
I am please to see Jews and Serbs mentioned in the same sentence.
The continued silence of influential US jews (not Israeli ones) on the role of the NDH, Tudjman, Izetbegovic and his clan is shameful. They kept their silence when Tudjman, Holocaust denier and anti-semite was invited by Bill Clinton to the opening of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (which also denies genocide against the Serbs by the Ustasi).
Only Israel stood up for the Serbs and put up RTB on their satellite when Eutelsat cut them off.
The continued attempts to pin 'genocide' on Serbs to somehow make it equivalent to the Holocaust or Croat/Bosnian moslem genocide in world war two is shameful in the extreme.
I'm glad the Serbs refuse to put up with this BS and the morons who are pushing it.
The good news is that real, every day Jews (i.e. ones who don't find it politik to ape whatever the West says) know this only too well. Unfortunately their views are routinely ignored, with only the fruitcakes getting a voice (here's looking at you New York Times/American media)
“Only 3 European countries stood up to Hitler.
- England
- Greece
- Serbia
- Russia (but only belatedly)”
(factman, 14 July 2015 15:06)
HOW DARE YOU ! Today you’ve got my first “poor comment” because I stopped reading at this place the BS of yours. It’s not only because we have won the war almost alone and we would win it in any case and at any cost. Even if the Brits, Serbs and Greeks also joined Hitler. Not only because before today you looked a descent Serb but because the USSR was the only state in the world that was ready to kill the beast in genesis. Since 1938 when we tried to make a joint front to help Czechoslovakia and after the Brits and the French refused we were ready to send our troops alone. But the Poles did not allow us pass their territory while the US and Britain financed and armed Hitler. They all talk about Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact now but they keep silence about the reasons that compelled us to sign it. You (ВЛАГАЛИЩЕ) disappointed me very much. Think before you open your mouth. “BELATEDLY” we granted 27 million of our beloved people on the altar of the Victory that you now divide among yourself. Our combat losses were 20-30 times bigger than of the 3 you mentioned. Including my Grandpa and 37 other men from my family. SHAME ON YOU !!! Also I believe that spitting at you is not my problem but the moral debt of every Serb here.
Our combat losses were 20-30 times bigger than of the 3 you mentioned. Including my Grandpa and 37 other men from my family. SHAME ON YOU !!! Also I believe that spitting at you is not my problem but the moral debt of every Serb here.
(rote, 14 July 2015 16:13) # Comment link
No rightful Serb would ever deny the sacrifice of the Russian soldiers especially during WWII. Needless to say , if it wasn't for the sacrifice of both Russian soldiers and civilians in Stalingrad , Leningrad and outside of Moscow, Hitler may have succeeded.
That being said, per-capita, Serbia is second to USSR in loss of life in both WWI and WWII.
Finally, it was unfortunate to see the traitor Yeltsin leading Russia during the Yugoslavia civil war which led to the Dayton Accords and UN resolution 1244 in Kosovo which Europe and US have reneged on. The story would have been much different with a strong Russian under Putin, that is all Serbia needed is political support at that time. It did not get it.
Serbs and Russians have nothing to prove to each other. Yeltsyn put the only stain in our relations. Even the two great Joes failed to quarrel us. There was only one phrase ( “Russia but only belatedly”) by Factman that drove me crazy. If it were Lenard or Azir I would not pay attention but Serbs must not be so cynic. But it’s OK now.
@ Balkan Anthropologist
1. As much as you don't know and even don't understand this "MYTH", because it is not in your culture, and as much as i will try to explain i'm sure you will not understand it.
2. The fascists Italians were tolerant?
Did they ordered Albania to consign the Jews? Yes!
Did HITLER send to Albania the ORDER to consign the Jews?
Yes, THEY ordered Albania to consign the Jews and Albanian Government REFUSE! FACT!!!!!!
Albania was the only country in EU that broke the Hitler order and refused to consign the Jews.
Albania was the only country in EU that continue to give Visa to Jews, when no one else in Eu gave to them. ( is enough, no, for a small country against the two superpowers ).
That "MYTH" that you talking about is not "mythificated" by Albanians and more less from Hoxha, but from the survivor of Holocaust in Albania and from the numerous Jews who survived thanks to Albanian people.
Is unknown the nr. of Jews who came in Albania from neighboring country and albanian people helped them to cross the border for going is safe countries.
3. And a to important fact that you don't know is that after the capitulation of Italy - Germans killed all the Italian they found in Albania and even in Greece. OH, you don't know?
Now, could you tell to me how could they helped the Jews?
In fact you should read a little more reliable historic site, and you will find that the albanian people saved even a lot of Italians, thanks to that "myth" called "Besa".
So I managed to get two Albanian trolls to attempt to explain why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not genocide.
The first troll, Azir, suggests that the bombing of Pearl Harbor, which was a military complex, justifies the atomic bombing of two Japanese cities and killing 200,000 mainly civilians, men, women, children and the elderly.
The other troll, icj1, suggests that because the crime of genocide did not exists at the time of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, it cannot be recognised as such. However, the genocide in Germany preceded those bombings and is recognised as such. Many countries have also recognised the genocide in Armenia which also precedes those two bombings.
Both seem to suggest that genocide can only be confirmed in court, even on hearsay evidence as presented on Srebrenica. Not taking into consideration that those courts are controlled and manipulated by the very powers that committed genocide numerous times (i.e USA and partners [international community])
Rudolph Joseph Rummel was professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii.
He claims that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were democide. "His definition of democide includes not only genocide, but also an excessive killing of civilians in war, to the extent this is against the agreed rules for warfare; he argues the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes, and thus democide." - Statistics of democide, ch. 13: Death by American bombings and other democide
Of course genocide happened. Even SS soldiers were revolted at what Croats did at the death camps they ran. Croats always try to please their German masters.
blah, blah..a russian chauvinist is driveling..we and we ruSSians - u wbeat germans only with the West's help and that goon Hitler was stupid enough to ignore his general staff's plans..ur losses were so huge as u do not care of ur people - like nowadays - tens of thusands in Chechnya, now Ukrainian adventure...And guess - who lives better u or germans? so it was rather a Phyrric victor, wasn't it? russians still live in shit, majority live in poverty and ever growing social stratification is creating a new revolutionary situation - be ready. one more question - when will u come and help KiM Serbs with deeds and not only slogans? or are u afraid of a small nato continent in KiM, or pindosov? hrabrye vatniki...
“blame comrade Stalin for that … a country of the USSR's size an easy prey for Germany … US relied on the technology … being smart that wins the wars not heroism; heroism was the main factor in the medieval times”
Court I am not going to explain things to a Russo/Serbophobe like you. But would like to explain myself to the rest :
1/ Stalin is still the most popular politician in our history. Most things said about him in the West are false. But what I agree with you is that the start of the war was his biggest sin against our people. And it wasn't one mistake but plenty of them derived from his theory of a counter attack war. Also you must know that the plot of the Soviet generals in 1941 was for real and in 1945 Stalin was back to the item. But many of the generals became heroes and Marshals so he had to close the prosecution.
2/ Americans fought quite well and they were not lacking heroism. Also they had no technical advantage. Some American arms were better some worse. I am grateful to every nation that fought on our side and the whole thing was raised here because of one bad phrase questioning the USSR's role. So I was that emotional. But anyway we don’t need an Albanian to judge us. Despite the 20 000 partisans Albania was far from being a part of the anti-Hitler front you know and only some of you like Joni can join the discussion. Besides it was our family business and we have already settled the things.
Albania was the only country in EU that broke the Hitler order and refused to consign the Jews.
(Joni, 15 July 2015 11:06)
And yet we have evidence that Jews were arrested and sent to camps, mostly from Kosovo but even a few from Albania and those who weren't were still harassed and had their property confiscated. That doesn't mean that Jews weren't protected, it just means that not all were spared. Which is no different than any other Nazi occupied or Nazi collaborating country in Europe. What you call "Besa" the rest of Europe calls having a moral conscience.
FACTMAN : “The US had a big part of the victory too”
Yes of course and their combat losses formally were second big after the USSR. They made about 4% of our combat losses ( 400 000 against 10 000 000) but if we go into the details interesting things can be found :
1/ The USA conducted two wars at the time. One was WW2 and the other a colonial war of their own. Japan never took part in WW2 and Hitler called them traitors. Japanese PM was coming to Moscow in 1942 and spent there a whole month. He twice met with Stalin. So I ask could Hitler or Mussolini afford the same ?
2/ About 40% of the US combat losses were caused by the Japanese and about 60% by the Germans. It means that they lost about 250 000 in the European war and some 150 000 fighting for the new colonies that they still occupy.
3/ Thus the combat losses in WW2 were as follows : USSR – 10 000 000 , Yugoslavia - 300 000 (3%), USA - 250 000 (2,5%), Britain – 220 000 (2,2%)including their colonial wars in the Middle East and Indochina.
Such is the truth. But we must say that the USA and Britain SOLD us 10% of the arms and raw materials we had in accordance with the Lend Lease program. The USSR has paid out everything with gold. Such were the allies we had. In 1944 Stalin made a great mistake by saving the Overlord Operation troops with a great offence on Wisla. We could quite finish the war by ourselves.
I wonder, of all the Albanian trolls here who consider the Srebrenica massacre a "genocide", how many of them consider the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima a localised genocide? If not, please explain why? I'd be interested to know.
(Zoran, 14 July 2015 21:05)
It's the international community that considers Srebrenica's massacre "genocide", not just the Albanian trolls.
Not sure what a "localized genocide" is! There is no such a crime called "localized genocide".
But if you meant to say the crime of genocide, the answer is very simple. Because the international community has not determined beyond reasonable doubt that what happened in Hiroshima amounted to the crime of genocide. On the other hand, the international community has determined beyond reasonable doubt that what happened in Rwanda in 1994 and in Srebrenica in 1995 did amount to the crime of genocide.
The reason why the international community has not determined that what happened in Hiroshima amounted to the crime of genocide is because (1) nobody can be convicted for genocide in Hiroshima because such a crime did not exist at that time and (2) even if the crime of genocide were to exist at that time, what happened in Hiroshima does not fit the international community's definition of genocide https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%2078/volume-78-I-1021-English.pdf (see article 2).
Yes of course and their combat losses formally were second big after the USSR. They made about 4% of our combat losses ( 400 000 against 10 000 000)
(rote, 14 July 2015 19:50)
Sure, but blame comrade Stalin for that. The USSR should have been able to resist the German invasion and win with a fraction of the 10 million, but comrade Stalin, in his quest for absolutely power and elimination of all enemies, real and imaginary, had destroyed the USSR's economy and armed forces making a country of the USSR's size an easy prey for Germany in the first year of the war. His paranoia was such that even when it was obvious that Germany was preparing to attack (how could the amassing of millions of soldiers go unnoticed!), he was thinking that the intelligence abount the imminent German attack was a ploy by the British to draw the USSR in the war and ordered the USSR armed forces not to be put on alert in order not to provoke Hitler!
Whereas the US relied on the technology and economy to win the war, and not on throwing millions of people to be slaughtered or cavalry to fight against the German panzers. It is being smart that wins the wars not heroism; heroism was the main factor in the medieval times, not in the industrial era...
icj1, the true international community, which is the United Nations, has not recognised the Srebrenica massacre as a genocide. Now that is a fact. The resolution by the UK failed to be accepted.
Your version of the international community, which consists mainly of the US and EU, is fake and does not represent the international community in its entirety as the UN does.
Albania was the only country in EU that broke the Hitler order and refused to consign the Jews.
(Joni, 15)
Albania wasn’t a state yet it was a German parody of a state. The only country outside the USSR that saved their Jews was Italy. Mussolini said they had no Jews and that all were Italians so the discussion was ended. And I heard not a single good word about this strange man who during 21 years of his rule executed only 9 men … USSR and now Russia is the only state that does not admit Holocaust and nobody is even trying to use the pretext to mud us. Because they know that we can prove it easily. The idea of Holocaust appeared in the USA 9 years after WW2 so they do not tease us and we keep silence. By the way among the 12 million evacuated to the eastern regions of the USSR there were lots of Jews. They had little chance to survive and so they were evacuated first. Also our Jews unlike the European ones fought Hitler on the battlefield and they fought very well.
s were saved in the thousands by Nedic in Serbia during WWII, yes Nedic who has been falsely accused as a Nazi collaborator. Ya sure Serboslavia that is why he commemorated Belgrade Serbia being the first Jew free city in Europe, also making commemorated stamps to celebrate the Serbs accomplishment. How come their are more righteous Croatians listed then Serbs in the righteous memorial hall in Israel.
(Lenard, 14 July 2015 18:18)
You are going by a stamp that was issued by the Nazi's? General Nedic did not have a chance to defend himself as the Serbian Communist Rankovic through him off the roof without trial. Something similar to the Croatian War Criminal Cardinal Stipinac who went out the back door of the Communist Trial System. Or Croatian Cardinal Father Draganovic who is still alive in Canada responsible for funneling Nazi's into South America.
As for the Croatian Genocidal Holocaust, it is well documented that over 750,000 Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Croats perished at the hands of the Croatian Nazi State, care to deny it? Some Croatian Ustasha churches still have a service for Croatian Nazi Puppet Leader Ante Pavelic, are you one of those?
"Zuroff is on a three-day visit to Serbia on the invitation of Labor Minister Aleksandar Vulin. "
I do not really know Zuroff, but is this a "birds of a feather..." case?
If he stays close to Vulin, people will associate him with Vulin. That is not the best association to have.
-- The difference between Italian Fascists and German Fascists --
In Bosnia, Serbs were saved by Italians from Germans and Ustasha. This happened so many times that the Italians were relieved of duties and put on mild duty farther west in Croatian and Montenegrin lands. After the war, many (thousands?) Serbs recounted that the Italian military saved their lives.
The Fascist Italian military commander of Bosnia refused to hand over Jews.
The Italians ousted Mussolini in the middle of WW2 and the southern half actually joined the Allies.
Italians failed in taking Greece yet were supplied with much German fire power.
Hitler was enraged by Italian military impotence many times.
Nuremberg was soft on Italians
The Italians were hardly Nazis, let alone fascists.
Germans crushed the countries they wanted eliminated with extreme prejudice.
DDD, absolutely, normally I wouldn't waste my time replying to trolls but in this particular instance, I invited the opinion of trolls and I got two responses from them. As expected, they were nonsensical but thought I would respond in this case.
DONT FORGET THE CROATS AND BOSNIAKS KILLED BY PARTIZANS AND CHETNIKS IN WW II AND THE 1990s AND ALL THE PALESTINIANS BUTCHERED BY JEWISH PEOPLE LOOKING TO TAKE THERE LAND.
@ Balkan Anthropologist
"Besa" for us is not a myth, and it is not a "moral conscience"- to us is like un unwritten law.
And sorry, that Albania get out from the "FRAMES' in WWII, but have you ever listen about Adolf Hitler? Is that thin guy who exterminate people for more less than that..
@ route
1. Albanians here are free to give their opinion as much as you are. And as i know the majority of Albanians don't hate Russians and no one else from slavic people except Serbs.
That "parody" state which are you talking about, REFUSED to consign the jews before and during the occupation. And helped not only jews, but even other minority from the concentration camps.
And i don't know to much about jews in Italy, but as i have learn a lot of Italian Jews died in concentration camps, from the proclamation of law "of the pure race"(?) made by Mussolini. The same law that Italians bring in Albania.
And yes, Albania was not a AXIS supporter is ranged as an "ALLY" country in the war against Germans and you must like you or not.
And about the Jews - a little small country with ~ 3 million inhabitants to easy to exterminate from the Nazi machine risked their lives - to do that what other big and powerful country did not. Yes, Albanians fought for their freedom and for this we are in anti-Hitler front side. And you must like it ore not!!!
*I never thank you, and your government for sending to Albanian ARMY the invitation for take part in the Victory Day Parade! Thank you!:)
Rote, no disrespect. And may it be known that the USSR almost single handedly defeated the Nazi machine (and paid an enormous human price in doing so).
The US had a big part of the victory too, but only after the USSR severely weakened the Nazi's.
I was only alluding to the fact that the USSR was a little late to the party (but better late than never)!
@rote don't trust the Serbs they will be the first to throw you and Russia under the bus.
(Azir, 14 July 2015 19:35)
We have two “rotes” today and I personally do not need your advice concerning our brothers. For your better understanding last night a read an article about Tesla and you may be surprised but it was located in paragraph called “Русы” … Next came “Code Of Honor Of Russian Officers”, “Heritage of the Old-Believers”, “White Race The Aborigine People of Japan. Ainu.” Ect.
Italians has lost every battle they took part in. Even Stalingrad started with the 2-nd Italian Army where we broke the front. Their biggest problem is that they started to believe in the never existed Roman Empire. To be exact that Italy was not a colony of the Empire but the Metropolis. It always served them bad service. They cook good pizza, play good football, sew good dresses ect. But they never had balls and their children will also loose every war. They are positive and old traditional people but who the hell told them that they are warriors ?
"Of course genocide happened (in the NDH). Not only against the Jews, but also against the Serbs - and much more than against the Jews," Zuroff, who is currently visiting Serbia, told the daily Politika.
MAYBE THE OOPSITE – NOT ONLY AGAINST SERBS BUT ALSO AGAINST THE JEWS ? IF ONLY ONE JEW ISN’T MORE IMPORTANT THAT 13 SERBS.
So if we urgently won’t shut you up someone else may also suppose he is free to place such heretic comments here.
(rote, 14 July 2015 17:32)
'
Careful you have just raised the likability index of factman by 500%.
And B92 has let you publish your outlandish rubbish for quite sometime so I doubt you will be able to "stop" anyone from posting.
Zorane, your obviously correct in your assertions but incorrect in wasting valuable time arguing points to these idiots, they are obviously not going to agree anyway, and if they did, who cares. Why do you honestly care what these guys think. Work and invest in yourself and your family. These idiots will still be here in 20 years arguing about the same thing. They were able to work with the demonically possessed US/UK to work in the interest of a select elite that got rich while everyone else got nothing. All that has come to an end with the internet and the distribution of truth. Everyone knows what happened. The self-proclaimed west is half way through in the process of collapse and the BRICS/SCO will take over the reigns of power.
IMAGE SOURCE
63 Komentari
Sortiraj po: