British resolution "meant to pin label of genocide on Serbs"
The changes made in <a href="http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2015&mm=07&dd=02&nav_id=94637" class="text-link" target= "_blank">the fourth draft</a> of a British resolution on Srebrenica are "for the most part cosmetic," Russian Ambassador Aleksandr Chepurin has said.
The resolution will fail because the US does not support it.
The tide of American policy is shifting in support of Serbia.
(factman, 3 July 2015 21:53
Maybe you should check out this link:
http://www.voanews.com/content/diplomat-expects-adoption-srebrenica-anniversary-resolution/2845860.html
Madame Powers is the person who will be voting on the resolution. I really like to draw your attention to:
"But one of the things that's been reflected in our negotiations over the U.N. Security Council is just how mainstream the facts about what happened at Srebrenica have become," she said. "We expect the resolution to reflect the facts, and we won't accept anything less."
and
Power said at a commemoration event at the United Nations on Wednesday that those who deny the Srebrenica genocide only "embarrass and humiliate" themselves.
"Let's just say genocide deniers, they’re not dealing with reality," Powers said. "They’re trying to distort historical facts that have been amply documented over now 20 years."
Of course while she was saying it she must have had her hand behind her back and her fingers crossed.
There's a reason that when the ICJ was stood up it was not based on anything from the ICTY which made things up as it went along. After all, they didn't want themselves to be judged by the same very low standards and very loose reinterpretation of the law and legal definitions as regularly practised by the ICTY.
People can make their own opinions without being told what is the 'correct' one by others who have a vested interest in making it simple for the sheep. The Krstic judgement doesn't stand up
(Good Thing You Didn't Become a Teacher, 3 July 2015 22:14)
Not sure how people like you can be brainwashed to this point and come up with such trash.
The ICJ said "The atrocities committed in and around Srebrenica are nowhere better summarized than in the first paragraph of the Judgment of the Trial Chamber in the Krstic´ case".
Then, after quoting at length from ICTY's judgements, especially the Krstic one, ICJ "conclude[d] that the acts committed at Srebrenica [...] were committed with the specific intent to destroy in part the group of the Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina as such; and accordingly that these were acts of genocide, committed by members of the VRS in and around Srebrenica from about 13 July 1995"
"the serious efforts Serbia and Serbian leaders have been making during the past years for the sake of reconciliation in the region and normalization of relations with the neighbors."
-- I know of no such effort. In fact the opposite is true. Denial of the crimes they committed in Sebrenica. Hiding of war criminals for years in army baracks. Closing of bridges and naming them "parks". Never admitting openly and apologizing for the crimes the state of Serbia committed in Kosova. Never arresting those who dumped the budies of civilians in refrigerated trucks in the Danube river.In fact they are being protected. Doing everything possible to not cooperate when new mass graves are discovered in Serbia. In fact even after the international community made them they dragged their feet for years hoping to get some benefit out of their heinous crimes. Protecting those who burried victims in mass graves in Kosova and then unearthed the same victims from mass graves in Kosova and reburried them in mass graves in Serbia and build multistory buildings on top of such mass graves. These people still work for the Serb government, in the interior ministry, friends of Vucic, Dacic, Nikolic. Never even attempting to discover the fate of another 1500 Albanians that are still missing. In the past years Serbia has done the impossible to not normalize and reconcile with its neighbors.
The British draft will fail and the American government is already changing its position on Serbia. This will bbe come. more and more apparent in the coming months.
(factman, 4 July 2015 15:25)
You are not by chance a reincarnated sj by chance are you. I love the "you do not understand, but I know what is not written or spoken" attitude. You never have to prove anything that way.
But I will be anxiously waiting on that shift toward Serbia to be coming in the next few months!
You like so many confuse the EU and US push to get Serbia into the EU as they need you. They NEED you in a controlled environment.
The Krstic judgement doesn't stand up
(Good Thing You Didn't Become a Teacher, 3 July 2015 22:14)
# Comment link
To you maybe, but it made it through an international tribunal with jurist from around the globe. To me that's final. All criminals have the same complaint no matter which country or which court they appear in and that is that the system is corrupt. Now do you think all judges and courts are corrupt or maybe just maybe criminals are unhappy they are caught.
You claim to be able to form an opinion, step out of your Serbian shoes and test the waters, there is a whole world out there that does not think Serbs are the perfect people.
You confuse what is written for mass consumption with actuality.
1. What a government says publicly is not necessarily what a government believes or does.
2. What the President says is not necessarily what the policy is for the country (or if he even supports the resolution). This is similar to a press statement.
3. The President did not say that he supports the resolution as it is currently written. In fact his people are working to find a compromise resolution.
4. The President is an outgoing President and to some degree his positions are slowly evaporating as other elements of the American government assume positions and power.
5. The American Ambassador to Belgrade said that it may go through 6-7 drafts until something is reached which Serbia will accept.
The British draft will fail and the American government is already changing its position on Serbia. This will bbe come. more and more apparent in the coming months.
I'm a human being..
And i'm really feel bad about the crimes made by 'random criminals" against innocents no matter who they are.
I will condemn them with a "life imprisonment" - be sure.
I just refuse to accept a compromise to :
1. The involvement of the Serbian Government in those crimes
2. The crimes made by the Serbian Army ( not random criminals ) against innocent civils
3. The president of Serbia ordered, and organized all this
So, i just refuse to justify all this !!!
Those actions wasn't made from RANDOM CRIMINALS, those were made by a State and his army.
***And when the "STATE" is involved, the crimes take other "DIMENSIONS"***
This is my point of view and i'm pretty sure that it is correct.
Have a nice day!
The resolution will fail because the US does not support it.
The tide of American policy is shifting in support of Serbia.
(factman, 3 July 2015 21:53
Don't know where you got that America does not support the resolution, other than making it up, which you are becoming famous for. Here is President Obama's personal words on Srebrenica:
“On July 11, we honor the memory of the over 8,000 innocent men and boys – brothers and
husbands, fathers and sons – who were brutally murdered in Srebrenica 17 years ago in a brazen
act of genocide that shocked the world. The name Srebrenica will forever be associated with
some of the darkest acts of the 20th century.
A measure of justice is finally being served for the victims in courts in The Hague and Bosnia
and Herzegovina, as the perpetrators of this atrocity, including Ratko Mladic and Radovan
Karadzic, are now being called to account for their actions. We know that Srebrenica’s future,
and that of Bosnia and Herzegovina, will not be held back by its painful recent history. The
United States rejects efforts to distort the scope of this atrocity, rationalize the motivations
behind it, blame the victims, and deny the indisputable fact that it was genocide."
The US does realize that the only way to have peace in the Balkans is with Serbia under the control of the EU, and it supports that path. But do not misinterpret that as a shift in policy towards Serbia.
The only reason Serbia and any Serbian in the world is alive today is because Russia loves us!
(Dragoljub Djurkovic, 3 July 2015 15:57)
Of course, but make sure to pay the gas bill on time otherwise you'll experience the true Russian brotherly love (you got a hint http://www.b92.net/eng/news/business.php?yyyy=2014&mm=10&dd=31&nav_id=92092 already last winter)!
'Men & Boys' are not civilians. Why do people still refuse to address and also ignore this fact? The book of war dead curated in Sarajevo has them mostly listed as soldiers in the ArBih.
People can read the original Krstic judgement for themselves (I bet none of you have) and also those of the dissenting judges instead of being told what to think..
They can also read the original Dutch Institute of War (NIOD) Documentation report that makes it very clear it was a military column comprised of most of the 28th Mountain Division of the ArBih.
People can also look up the differing legal opinions that were published since the Krstic ruling that was in no way unanimous by the international legal experts, many of whom have pointed out that the judges set the bar for proving 'genocide' very low as to guarantee a conviction.
Every comment made on intent, soldiers, civilians, numbers etc. is factually correct.
There's a reason that when the ICJ was stood up it was not based on anything from the ICTY which made things up as it went along. After all, they didn't want themselves to be judged by the same very low standards and very loose reinterpretation of the law and legal definitions as regularly practised by the ICTY.
People can make their own opinions without being told what is the 'correct' one by others who have a vested interest in making it simple for the sheep. The Krstic judgement doesn't stand up
Brian: Your logic is seriously flawed. No-one other than a few nationalist Bosniak politicians is proposing the abolition of the RS. Quite the opposite in fact. Britain is one of the leading voices for the status quo and would only sanction a change to the Dayton Accord if ALL sides agree to it. That means no third entity, no unified BiH and no independence for the RS, irrespective of the outcome of any vote at the UN. Once more for the record I should state that such resolutions are pointless and I'm frustrated that my government saw fit to bring this one in my name. It's passing or otherwise however is meaningless.
Serbia has sent countless peoples to the Hague or they have charged them themselves. The question you should be asking is what has Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo done? Then again you didn't do anything to anybody. All those thousands of serbs killed probably commited collective suicide.
(Logic Escapes Some, 3 July 2015 15:48)
One reason I never became a teacher is the frustration that after many times showing everyone that 2+2=4 there is at least one that cannot comprehend it.
Read the following link:
"In particular, in its proceedings against these three accused, the Tribunal has found beyond a
reasonable doubt that Bosnian Serb and other forces killed between 7,000 and 8,000 Bosnian
Muslim men and boys between approximately 11 and 19 July 1995. The Tribunal has established
beyond a reasonable doubt that the vast majority of those killed were not killed in combat, but
were victims of executions. The Tribunal has established beyond a reasonable doubt that the
killings did not occur in a moment of passion, but were the product of a well-planned and
coordinated operation. Finally, the Tribunal has established beyond a reasonable doubt that
the killing of 7,000 to 8,000 Bosnian Muslim prisoners was genocide."
And you are right Logic does escape some!!!
http://icty.org/srebrenica20/
When you propose and If it passes a resolution saying all serbs of guilty of genocide the next step is abolition of Serb republic of Bosnia and that makes a new war likely.
"For the most part, the essence of the resolution is to pin the label of genocide on Serbs and Serbia.
If the shoe fits!!
(I think it does, 3 July 2015 13:22)
Where exactly did the ICTY & the ICJ say that? They didn't. The ICJ ruled that there was no genocide in the Municipalities in Bosnia & the ICTY spoke of an 'act of genocide' after it provided neither intent, ignored that the 'men & boys' were armed soldiers of the ArBih, no women or children, it happened during a war in which the ArBiH committed many war crimes in the same area before, and the numbers are very small - certainly not wiping out the Bosnian moslems in substantial (in any way). It's a war crime to kill prisoners of war, which is what these ArBiH soldiers were, but certainly not genocide, however the ICTY cares to imaginatively define it.
It it was the Americans, they would simply have been labelled as 'enemy combatants' even more loosely defined as any male between the ages of 14 & 60 whether armed or not on the orders of a state or non-state actor.
The only reason Serbia and any Serbian in the world is alive today is because Russia loves us! With out Russia Serbia would of been murdered and burried ages ago! Does any Serbian really think that Serbia would of survived World War One, Two and USA, England and Germany during the 1990's? What about the next big Serbian holocast Satan is planning, will any Serbian survive if Serbia continues to entertain Satan? God Bless Russia and all Slavic Christian Eastern Orthodox People!!!
In fact the statements made by Russia, don't contribute in good relationship between Serbia and her neighbors.
Because it is "Offensive" to all the neighboring countries of how must be acceptable that serbs must do "all" the crimes they want and hide always behind Russia.
Stop!!!!
This is unacceptable and Offensive!
Serbia has sent countless peoples to the Hague or they have charged them themselves. The question you should be asking is what has Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo done? Then again you didn't do anything to anybody. All those thousands of serbs killed probably commited collective suicide.
The only reason Serbia and any Serbian in the world is alive today is because Russia loves us! With out Russia Serbia would of been murdered and burried ages ago! Does any Serbian really think that Serbia would of survived World War One, Two and USA, England and Germany during the 1990's? What about the next big Serbian holocast Satan is planning, will any Serbian survive if Serbia continues to entertain Satan? God Bless Russia and all Slavic Christian Eastern Orthodox People!!!
When you propose and If it passes a resolution saying all serbs of guilty of genocide the next step is abolition of Serb republic of Bosnia and that makes a new war likely.
"For the most part, the essence of the resolution is to pin the label of genocide on Serbs and Serbia.
If the shoe fits!!
(I think it does, 3 July 2015 13:22)
Where exactly did the ICTY & the ICJ say that? They didn't. The ICJ ruled that there was no genocide in the Municipalities in Bosnia & the ICTY spoke of an 'act of genocide' after it provided neither intent, ignored that the 'men & boys' were armed soldiers of the ArBih, no women or children, it happened during a war in which the ArBiH committed many war crimes in the same area before, and the numbers are very small - certainly not wiping out the Bosnian moslems in substantial (in any way). It's a war crime to kill prisoners of war, which is what these ArBiH soldiers were, but certainly not genocide, however the ICTY cares to imaginatively define it.
It it was the Americans, they would simply have been labelled as 'enemy combatants' even more loosely defined as any male between the ages of 14 & 60 whether armed or not on the orders of a state or non-state actor.
I'm a human being..
And i'm really feel bad about the crimes made by 'random criminals" against innocents no matter who they are.
I will condemn them with a "life imprisonment" - be sure.
I just refuse to accept a compromise to :
1. The involvement of the Serbian Government in those crimes
2. The crimes made by the Serbian Army ( not random criminals ) against innocent civils
3. The president of Serbia ordered, and organized all this
So, i just refuse to justify all this !!!
Those actions wasn't made from RANDOM CRIMINALS, those were made by a State and his army.
***And when the "STATE" is involved, the crimes take other "DIMENSIONS"***
This is my point of view and i'm pretty sure that it is correct.
Have a nice day!
In fact the statements made by Russia, don't contribute in good relationship between Serbia and her neighbors.
Because it is "Offensive" to all the neighboring countries of how must be acceptable that serbs must do "all" the crimes they want and hide always behind Russia.
Stop!!!!
This is unacceptable and Offensive!
'Men & Boys' are not civilians. Why do people still refuse to address and also ignore this fact? The book of war dead curated in Sarajevo has them mostly listed as soldiers in the ArBih.
People can read the original Krstic judgement for themselves (I bet none of you have) and also those of the dissenting judges instead of being told what to think..
They can also read the original Dutch Institute of War (NIOD) Documentation report that makes it very clear it was a military column comprised of most of the 28th Mountain Division of the ArBih.
People can also look up the differing legal opinions that were published since the Krstic ruling that was in no way unanimous by the international legal experts, many of whom have pointed out that the judges set the bar for proving 'genocide' very low as to guarantee a conviction.
Every comment made on intent, soldiers, civilians, numbers etc. is factually correct.
There's a reason that when the ICJ was stood up it was not based on anything from the ICTY which made things up as it went along. After all, they didn't want themselves to be judged by the same very low standards and very loose reinterpretation of the law and legal definitions as regularly practised by the ICTY.
People can make their own opinions without being told what is the 'correct' one by others who have a vested interest in making it simple for the sheep. The Krstic judgement doesn't stand up
The only reason Serbia and any Serbian in the world is alive today is because Russia loves us!
(Dragoljub Djurkovic, 3 July 2015 15:57)
Of course, but make sure to pay the gas bill on time otherwise you'll experience the true Russian brotherly love (you got a hint http://www.b92.net/eng/news/business.php?yyyy=2014&mm=10&dd=31&nav_id=92092 already last winter)!
You confuse what is written for mass consumption with actuality.
1. What a government says publicly is not necessarily what a government believes or does.
2. What the President says is not necessarily what the policy is for the country (or if he even supports the resolution). This is similar to a press statement.
3. The President did not say that he supports the resolution as it is currently written. In fact his people are working to find a compromise resolution.
4. The President is an outgoing President and to some degree his positions are slowly evaporating as other elements of the American government assume positions and power.
5. The American Ambassador to Belgrade said that it may go through 6-7 drafts until something is reached which Serbia will accept.
The British draft will fail and the American government is already changing its position on Serbia. This will bbe come. more and more apparent in the coming months.
"the serious efforts Serbia and Serbian leaders have been making during the past years for the sake of reconciliation in the region and normalization of relations with the neighbors."
-- I know of no such effort. In fact the opposite is true. Denial of the crimes they committed in Sebrenica. Hiding of war criminals for years in army baracks. Closing of bridges and naming them "parks". Never admitting openly and apologizing for the crimes the state of Serbia committed in Kosova. Never arresting those who dumped the budies of civilians in refrigerated trucks in the Danube river.In fact they are being protected. Doing everything possible to not cooperate when new mass graves are discovered in Serbia. In fact even after the international community made them they dragged their feet for years hoping to get some benefit out of their heinous crimes. Protecting those who burried victims in mass graves in Kosova and then unearthed the same victims from mass graves in Kosova and reburried them in mass graves in Serbia and build multistory buildings on top of such mass graves. These people still work for the Serb government, in the interior ministry, friends of Vucic, Dacic, Nikolic. Never even attempting to discover the fate of another 1500 Albanians that are still missing. In the past years Serbia has done the impossible to not normalize and reconcile with its neighbors.
(Logic Escapes Some, 3 July 2015 15:48)
One reason I never became a teacher is the frustration that after many times showing everyone that 2+2=4 there is at least one that cannot comprehend it.
Read the following link:
"In particular, in its proceedings against these three accused, the Tribunal has found beyond a
reasonable doubt that Bosnian Serb and other forces killed between 7,000 and 8,000 Bosnian
Muslim men and boys between approximately 11 and 19 July 1995. The Tribunal has established
beyond a reasonable doubt that the vast majority of those killed were not killed in combat, but
were victims of executions. The Tribunal has established beyond a reasonable doubt that the
killings did not occur in a moment of passion, but were the product of a well-planned and
coordinated operation. Finally, the Tribunal has established beyond a reasonable doubt that
the killing of 7,000 to 8,000 Bosnian Muslim prisoners was genocide."
And you are right Logic does escape some!!!
http://icty.org/srebrenica20/
The British draft will fail and the American government is already changing its position on Serbia. This will bbe come. more and more apparent in the coming months.
(factman, 4 July 2015 15:25)
You are not by chance a reincarnated sj by chance are you. I love the "you do not understand, but I know what is not written or spoken" attitude. You never have to prove anything that way.
But I will be anxiously waiting on that shift toward Serbia to be coming in the next few months!
You like so many confuse the EU and US push to get Serbia into the EU as they need you. They NEED you in a controlled environment.
The resolution will fail because the US does not support it.
The tide of American policy is shifting in support of Serbia.
(factman, 3 July 2015 21:53
Don't know where you got that America does not support the resolution, other than making it up, which you are becoming famous for. Here is President Obama's personal words on Srebrenica:
“On July 11, we honor the memory of the over 8,000 innocent men and boys – brothers and
husbands, fathers and sons – who were brutally murdered in Srebrenica 17 years ago in a brazen
act of genocide that shocked the world. The name Srebrenica will forever be associated with
some of the darkest acts of the 20th century.
A measure of justice is finally being served for the victims in courts in The Hague and Bosnia
and Herzegovina, as the perpetrators of this atrocity, including Ratko Mladic and Radovan
Karadzic, are now being called to account for their actions. We know that Srebrenica’s future,
and that of Bosnia and Herzegovina, will not be held back by its painful recent history. The
United States rejects efforts to distort the scope of this atrocity, rationalize the motivations
behind it, blame the victims, and deny the indisputable fact that it was genocide."
The US does realize that the only way to have peace in the Balkans is with Serbia under the control of the EU, and it supports that path. But do not misinterpret that as a shift in policy towards Serbia.
There's a reason that when the ICJ was stood up it was not based on anything from the ICTY which made things up as it went along. After all, they didn't want themselves to be judged by the same very low standards and very loose reinterpretation of the law and legal definitions as regularly practised by the ICTY.
People can make their own opinions without being told what is the 'correct' one by others who have a vested interest in making it simple for the sheep. The Krstic judgement doesn't stand up
(Good Thing You Didn't Become a Teacher, 3 July 2015 22:14)
Not sure how people like you can be brainwashed to this point and come up with such trash.
The ICJ said "The atrocities committed in and around Srebrenica are nowhere better summarized than in the first paragraph of the Judgment of the Trial Chamber in the Krstic´ case".
Then, after quoting at length from ICTY's judgements, especially the Krstic one, ICJ "conclude[d] that the acts committed at Srebrenica [...] were committed with the specific intent to destroy in part the group of the Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina as such; and accordingly that these were acts of genocide, committed by members of the VRS in and around Srebrenica from about 13 July 1995"
The resolution will fail because the US does not support it.
The tide of American policy is shifting in support of Serbia.
(factman, 3 July 2015 21:53
Maybe you should check out this link:
http://www.voanews.com/content/diplomat-expects-adoption-srebrenica-anniversary-resolution/2845860.html
Madame Powers is the person who will be voting on the resolution. I really like to draw your attention to:
"But one of the things that's been reflected in our negotiations over the U.N. Security Council is just how mainstream the facts about what happened at Srebrenica have become," she said. "We expect the resolution to reflect the facts, and we won't accept anything less."
and
Power said at a commemoration event at the United Nations on Wednesday that those who deny the Srebrenica genocide only "embarrass and humiliate" themselves.
"Let's just say genocide deniers, they’re not dealing with reality," Powers said. "They’re trying to distort historical facts that have been amply documented over now 20 years."
Of course while she was saying it she must have had her hand behind her back and her fingers crossed.
Brian: Your logic is seriously flawed. No-one other than a few nationalist Bosniak politicians is proposing the abolition of the RS. Quite the opposite in fact. Britain is one of the leading voices for the status quo and would only sanction a change to the Dayton Accord if ALL sides agree to it. That means no third entity, no unified BiH and no independence for the RS, irrespective of the outcome of any vote at the UN. Once more for the record I should state that such resolutions are pointless and I'm frustrated that my government saw fit to bring this one in my name. It's passing or otherwise however is meaningless.
The Krstic judgement doesn't stand up
(Good Thing You Didn't Become a Teacher, 3 July 2015 22:14)
# Comment link
To you maybe, but it made it through an international tribunal with jurist from around the globe. To me that's final. All criminals have the same complaint no matter which country or which court they appear in and that is that the system is corrupt. Now do you think all judges and courts are corrupt or maybe just maybe criminals are unhappy they are caught.
You claim to be able to form an opinion, step out of your Serbian shoes and test the waters, there is a whole world out there that does not think Serbs are the perfect people.
In fact the statements made by Russia, don't contribute in good relationship between Serbia and her neighbors.
Because it is "Offensive" to all the neighboring countries of how must be acceptable that serbs must do "all" the crimes they want and hide always behind Russia.
Stop!!!!
This is unacceptable and Offensive!
(Logic Escapes Some, 3 July 2015 15:48)
One reason I never became a teacher is the frustration that after many times showing everyone that 2+2=4 there is at least one that cannot comprehend it.
Read the following link:
"In particular, in its proceedings against these three accused, the Tribunal has found beyond a
reasonable doubt that Bosnian Serb and other forces killed between 7,000 and 8,000 Bosnian
Muslim men and boys between approximately 11 and 19 July 1995. The Tribunal has established
beyond a reasonable doubt that the vast majority of those killed were not killed in combat, but
were victims of executions. The Tribunal has established beyond a reasonable doubt that the
killings did not occur in a moment of passion, but were the product of a well-planned and
coordinated operation. Finally, the Tribunal has established beyond a reasonable doubt that
the killing of 7,000 to 8,000 Bosnian Muslim prisoners was genocide."
And you are right Logic does escape some!!!
http://icty.org/srebrenica20/
The only reason Serbia and any Serbian in the world is alive today is because Russia loves us! With out Russia Serbia would of been murdered and burried ages ago! Does any Serbian really think that Serbia would of survived World War One, Two and USA, England and Germany during the 1990's? What about the next big Serbian holocast Satan is planning, will any Serbian survive if Serbia continues to entertain Satan? God Bless Russia and all Slavic Christian Eastern Orthodox People!!!
The only reason Serbia and any Serbian in the world is alive today is because Russia loves us!
(Dragoljub Djurkovic, 3 July 2015 15:57)
Of course, but make sure to pay the gas bill on time otherwise you'll experience the true Russian brotherly love (you got a hint http://www.b92.net/eng/news/business.php?yyyy=2014&mm=10&dd=31&nav_id=92092 already last winter)!
Serbia has sent countless peoples to the Hague or they have charged them themselves. The question you should be asking is what has Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo done? Then again you didn't do anything to anybody. All those thousands of serbs killed probably commited collective suicide.
"For the most part, the essence of the resolution is to pin the label of genocide on Serbs and Serbia.
If the shoe fits!!
(I think it does, 3 July 2015 13:22)
Where exactly did the ICTY & the ICJ say that? They didn't. The ICJ ruled that there was no genocide in the Municipalities in Bosnia & the ICTY spoke of an 'act of genocide' after it provided neither intent, ignored that the 'men & boys' were armed soldiers of the ArBih, no women or children, it happened during a war in which the ArBiH committed many war crimes in the same area before, and the numbers are very small - certainly not wiping out the Bosnian moslems in substantial (in any way). It's a war crime to kill prisoners of war, which is what these ArBiH soldiers were, but certainly not genocide, however the ICTY cares to imaginatively define it.
It it was the Americans, they would simply have been labelled as 'enemy combatants' even more loosely defined as any male between the ages of 14 & 60 whether armed or not on the orders of a state or non-state actor.
'Men & Boys' are not civilians. Why do people still refuse to address and also ignore this fact? The book of war dead curated in Sarajevo has them mostly listed as soldiers in the ArBih.
People can read the original Krstic judgement for themselves (I bet none of you have) and also those of the dissenting judges instead of being told what to think..
They can also read the original Dutch Institute of War (NIOD) Documentation report that makes it very clear it was a military column comprised of most of the 28th Mountain Division of the ArBih.
People can also look up the differing legal opinions that were published since the Krstic ruling that was in no way unanimous by the international legal experts, many of whom have pointed out that the judges set the bar for proving 'genocide' very low as to guarantee a conviction.
Every comment made on intent, soldiers, civilians, numbers etc. is factually correct.
There's a reason that when the ICJ was stood up it was not based on anything from the ICTY which made things up as it went along. After all, they didn't want themselves to be judged by the same very low standards and very loose reinterpretation of the law and legal definitions as regularly practised by the ICTY.
People can make their own opinions without being told what is the 'correct' one by others who have a vested interest in making it simple for the sheep. The Krstic judgement doesn't stand up
I'm a human being..
And i'm really feel bad about the crimes made by 'random criminals" against innocents no matter who they are.
I will condemn them with a "life imprisonment" - be sure.
I just refuse to accept a compromise to :
1. The involvement of the Serbian Government in those crimes
2. The crimes made by the Serbian Army ( not random criminals ) against innocent civils
3. The president of Serbia ordered, and organized all this
So, i just refuse to justify all this !!!
Those actions wasn't made from RANDOM CRIMINALS, those were made by a State and his army.
***And when the "STATE" is involved, the crimes take other "DIMENSIONS"***
This is my point of view and i'm pretty sure that it is correct.
Have a nice day!
The resolution will fail because the US does not support it.
The tide of American policy is shifting in support of Serbia.
(factman, 3 July 2015 21:53
Don't know where you got that America does not support the resolution, other than making it up, which you are becoming famous for. Here is President Obama's personal words on Srebrenica:
“On July 11, we honor the memory of the over 8,000 innocent men and boys – brothers and
husbands, fathers and sons – who were brutally murdered in Srebrenica 17 years ago in a brazen
act of genocide that shocked the world. The name Srebrenica will forever be associated with
some of the darkest acts of the 20th century.
A measure of justice is finally being served for the victims in courts in The Hague and Bosnia
and Herzegovina, as the perpetrators of this atrocity, including Ratko Mladic and Radovan
Karadzic, are now being called to account for their actions. We know that Srebrenica’s future,
and that of Bosnia and Herzegovina, will not be held back by its painful recent history. The
United States rejects efforts to distort the scope of this atrocity, rationalize the motivations
behind it, blame the victims, and deny the indisputable fact that it was genocide."
The US does realize that the only way to have peace in the Balkans is with Serbia under the control of the EU, and it supports that path. But do not misinterpret that as a shift in policy towards Serbia.
"the serious efforts Serbia and Serbian leaders have been making during the past years for the sake of reconciliation in the region and normalization of relations with the neighbors."
-- I know of no such effort. In fact the opposite is true. Denial of the crimes they committed in Sebrenica. Hiding of war criminals for years in army baracks. Closing of bridges and naming them "parks". Never admitting openly and apologizing for the crimes the state of Serbia committed in Kosova. Never arresting those who dumped the budies of civilians in refrigerated trucks in the Danube river.In fact they are being protected. Doing everything possible to not cooperate when new mass graves are discovered in Serbia. In fact even after the international community made them they dragged their feet for years hoping to get some benefit out of their heinous crimes. Protecting those who burried victims in mass graves in Kosova and then unearthed the same victims from mass graves in Kosova and reburried them in mass graves in Serbia and build multistory buildings on top of such mass graves. These people still work for the Serb government, in the interior ministry, friends of Vucic, Dacic, Nikolic. Never even attempting to discover the fate of another 1500 Albanians that are still missing. In the past years Serbia has done the impossible to not normalize and reconcile with its neighbors.
Brian: Your logic is seriously flawed. No-one other than a few nationalist Bosniak politicians is proposing the abolition of the RS. Quite the opposite in fact. Britain is one of the leading voices for the status quo and would only sanction a change to the Dayton Accord if ALL sides agree to it. That means no third entity, no unified BiH and no independence for the RS, irrespective of the outcome of any vote at the UN. Once more for the record I should state that such resolutions are pointless and I'm frustrated that my government saw fit to bring this one in my name. It's passing or otherwise however is meaningless.
You confuse what is written for mass consumption with actuality.
1. What a government says publicly is not necessarily what a government believes or does.
2. What the President says is not necessarily what the policy is for the country (or if he even supports the resolution). This is similar to a press statement.
3. The President did not say that he supports the resolution as it is currently written. In fact his people are working to find a compromise resolution.
4. The President is an outgoing President and to some degree his positions are slowly evaporating as other elements of the American government assume positions and power.
5. The American Ambassador to Belgrade said that it may go through 6-7 drafts until something is reached which Serbia will accept.
The British draft will fail and the American government is already changing its position on Serbia. This will bbe come. more and more apparent in the coming months.
There's a reason that when the ICJ was stood up it was not based on anything from the ICTY which made things up as it went along. After all, they didn't want themselves to be judged by the same very low standards and very loose reinterpretation of the law and legal definitions as regularly practised by the ICTY.
People can make their own opinions without being told what is the 'correct' one by others who have a vested interest in making it simple for the sheep. The Krstic judgement doesn't stand up
(Good Thing You Didn't Become a Teacher, 3 July 2015 22:14)
Not sure how people like you can be brainwashed to this point and come up with such trash.
The ICJ said "The atrocities committed in and around Srebrenica are nowhere better summarized than in the first paragraph of the Judgment of the Trial Chamber in the Krstic´ case".
Then, after quoting at length from ICTY's judgements, especially the Krstic one, ICJ "conclude[d] that the acts committed at Srebrenica [...] were committed with the specific intent to destroy in part the group of the Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina as such; and accordingly that these were acts of genocide, committed by members of the VRS in and around Srebrenica from about 13 July 1995"
When you propose and If it passes a resolution saying all serbs of guilty of genocide the next step is abolition of Serb republic of Bosnia and that makes a new war likely.
The Krstic judgement doesn't stand up
(Good Thing You Didn't Become a Teacher, 3 July 2015 22:14)
# Comment link
To you maybe, but it made it through an international tribunal with jurist from around the globe. To me that's final. All criminals have the same complaint no matter which country or which court they appear in and that is that the system is corrupt. Now do you think all judges and courts are corrupt or maybe just maybe criminals are unhappy they are caught.
You claim to be able to form an opinion, step out of your Serbian shoes and test the waters, there is a whole world out there that does not think Serbs are the perfect people.
The British draft will fail and the American government is already changing its position on Serbia. This will bbe come. more and more apparent in the coming months.
(factman, 4 July 2015 15:25)
You are not by chance a reincarnated sj by chance are you. I love the "you do not understand, but I know what is not written or spoken" attitude. You never have to prove anything that way.
But I will be anxiously waiting on that shift toward Serbia to be coming in the next few months!
You like so many confuse the EU and US push to get Serbia into the EU as they need you. They NEED you in a controlled environment.
The resolution will fail because the US does not support it.
The tide of American policy is shifting in support of Serbia.
(factman, 3 July 2015 21:53
Maybe you should check out this link:
http://www.voanews.com/content/diplomat-expects-adoption-srebrenica-anniversary-resolution/2845860.html
Madame Powers is the person who will be voting on the resolution. I really like to draw your attention to:
"But one of the things that's been reflected in our negotiations over the U.N. Security Council is just how mainstream the facts about what happened at Srebrenica have become," she said. "We expect the resolution to reflect the facts, and we won't accept anything less."
and
Power said at a commemoration event at the United Nations on Wednesday that those who deny the Srebrenica genocide only "embarrass and humiliate" themselves.
"Let's just say genocide deniers, they’re not dealing with reality," Powers said. "They’re trying to distort historical facts that have been amply documented over now 20 years."
Of course while she was saying it she must have had her hand behind her back and her fingers crossed.
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