(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
It amazes me everytime that someone uses the EUSSR term as somehow comparing the EU with the former soviet union. Especially because those very same people are ardent supporters of Putin whose goals are undeniably to rebuild the former USSR.
(amazing, 21 September 2014 03:19)
Not really. The EU is more resembling of USSR today than Russia is. Believe it or not, Russia existed before the 45 years that the Soviet Union existed. It is a civilization that has existed for hundreds of years and in fact it was the Russian state that had to be defeated in order for the USSR to come to power.
Ironically, Crimea was given to Ukraine from who? The Soviet Union. If anything, Russia rewrote this historical blunder after the overthrow of the democratically elected gov't in Kiev.
I have a message for you. I hope you listen.
I posted in all honesty about my opinion and my feelings. It is an emotional and difficult time for me and all of us in my country. I was happy to discuss and give my side. However, I cannot help but be insulted by the patronising way you pointed out to me the importance of the vote in my country about our future. And I cannot also ignore how you tried twist what I said – in fact you went further. You said that I said things that I did not say.
I don’t know where you come from or anything about you but you really need to look in a mirror and think why you are that way and what you will do to change.
Here’s to honesty and debate and mutual respect. You should get some.
Many commentors here talk about how the break-ups of the UK (potential) and Yugoslavia (actual) are different, and that's true.
To see those differences in a better light we have to look at why such unions were created in the first place.
The union between Scotland and England (Wales and Ireland were already in the union before then)was formed without the consent of those nations' peoples and for the purpose of creating an empire that largely served a small elite in both England and Scotland.
The creation of Yugoslavia in 1919, however, had a greater, though not universal, degree of consent among the peoples and the overall motive was to defend them all against foreign empires under which they had lived for centuries.
I would call that a massive difference and it's why I was against the break-up of Yugoslavia but see no problem with the same happening in a peaceful, civilised way in the UK.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
It amazes me everytime that someone uses the EUSSR term as somehow comparing the EU with the former soviet union. Especially because those very same people are ardent supporters of Putin whose goals are undeniably to rebuild the former USSR.
there are no economic arguments for the UK to stay, but plenty of not just economic but also political and cultural reasons to separate the UK from the EU. It's a process that cannot be reversed because the EU is way too stuck in its ways and those ways are not benefiting the ordinary European.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
I'm sure it must be so since perhaps Serbianna.com says so :)
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Western Europe is in difficult position right now. Nation-states like Spain, Italy and Belgium are being threatened to internally break apart
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
What's the problem with that? Instead of a single Italy having Italy A and Italy B... Nobody is going to take up arms because they are not stupid like the Serbs. Czech Rep. and Slovakia are no worse off than Czechoslovakia.
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all the while anti EU sentiment is high in the UK, France, Austria, Denmark among other places.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
It's unfortunate that your great wishes don't correspond to the reality http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/06/17/eu-referendum-record-lead/
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While the rest of the world is growing economically, Western Europe is declining and some could even say imploding.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
Who told you that? Serbianna.com again?! You present your wishes as the reality without any effort to confirm if that's the case or not. It sounds like you love living in denial when the reality does not match your wishes.
what did I take out of context there?
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 17:27)
The context is the whole exchange that I had with Ian.I was replying to Ian's comment in which he claimed that Scotland was heavily subsidised by the rest of the UK and in which I replied that According the UK's Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR)the UK has benefited to the tune of £300 billion since oil production started in North Sea.Imagine what a small country like Scotland could've done with these sums of money in terms of development. As to the rest of my comment about land and culture read the following link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
However , my comment doesn't imply neither explicit nor implicit support for Scottish independence on its present remit.The axis of evil -EU,Nato and monarchy were still central in Salmond's independence.
I believe it was probably a wise decision for the Scots to make at the moment. Independence is a very costly and obtuse procedure to go through on a realistic level, one they do not need to go through. The wars on the British Isles are truly a thing of the past. Idealistically, I like the idea of an independent Scotland, but if most people don't want it, then this is their choice.
I do have to say, though, 55% no and 45% yes? That is not a big margin at all. Almost 50/50. It shows that nearly half of Scots are not happy with Labour at all and voted for independence. Labour REALLY needs to change a lot if they really want to keep the UK together and not just by a small margin of people in the component states. Cameron shouldn't be talking about his "heart being broken" if Scotland chose to break away from the UK, rather take an active interest in those 45% that wanted to break away from London and his rule.
Like the Serbs the Scots have become lazy and dependent on others. The Serbs would previously siphon funds from ZG & LJ and the Scots continue to beg for handouts from London. Naturally the scots voted against, when gaining independence means you have to work to build your country. Take Serbia for example without the support from Croatia and Slovenia it is no better off then Bulgaria or Romania. Salaries have never been so low and people if they could would live abroad, they would. The Serbs are still crying the once DEFUNCT'YU is no more !
On this topic i feel the need to say my bit about some things that may be reported internationally about events in Glasgow tonight. I've seen headlines of rival faction of pro union and yes activists tonight.
The truth was that 200 "loyalists" a small part of the 55% no voters and in no way representative, were attacking anyone with visible signs of being Scottish. This is a nasty fringe in our society, don't mistake that for genuine political differences in the vast majority in the no or yes side. "loyalists" are the people who live in the history of the troubles in Northern Ireland. Here they are in all their "glory" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZkTCwls5PE#t=18
I also ask you to consider the morals of your regular contributor, Ian UK, on a point I took issue with. Those 200 people were part of his “most British” and the songs they are singing is “why don’t you go home” which is a reference to the potato famine in Ireland. Which ties in with his “plastic Scots of Irish decent” comment.
Ian, what do you have to say? Your “most British” Scots really done a job on the socialists in George Square didn’t they? An organised and co-ordinated assault on peaceful people – out of the blue.
(bganon, 19 September 2014 16:35
On the surface I can see your point but you over simplify it. The big point is you cannot compare the situation in the UK right now with the situation in Yugoslavia post Tito.
Most of the Serbs supporting a split by Scotland is simply wanting "payback" for Britain.
Also you cannot correlate the desires to keep UK together as being in conflict of seeing Kosovo separated from Serbia. There was no present day violence in Scotland by UK, no matter how you feel about the Albanians the scourge of Milosevic is very well documented and without question internationally. Plus there is a huge difference with 45% of the people wanting to break away from Britain but still wanting a close relationship, still part of the crown, wanting to use the same currency etc,, and 90+% wanting Kosovo to separate totally with Serbia.
But it has always amazed me how even today so many Serbs just see the break of Croatia and Kosovo as simple separatist movements.
England had already started plans for a peaceful separation, whereas, Milosevic made plans for a bloody reaction to any separation.
So comparison of the two is even more confusing than not comparing the two.
no wars, no genocide, no living hell - thank you very much, Serbia! Civilized ppl, civilized decisions. thank you to democracy, and to the ppl of scotland. I think we have the best of all worlds here...
The result was not as close as predicted, but it was still too close for the NO camp, they should have got 60-70% against not 55 and they had to really mobilise their supporters at the last minuet to defeat the Yes camp as they would likely have won. Unsuccessful this time, but Scotland could be here again in less than 20 years if the UK government backtracks on more autonomy for Scotland. Yes did better than expected and came way closer than anyone would have expected years ago or even a few months ago.
"Maybe I should have voted yes. Simple answer is that I put my personal wealth and short term certainty first – not very admirable, I know."
On the contrary, I think that process is very admirable. You taking note that you are not alone and that there are others, that your actions may have consequences that affect others and that those consequences may bring other reactions that affect you in return. I am just talking about the process you described in the booth, not about the validity of those assumptions. That thinking process is not as easy as it seems, the 90's in the Balkans are a perfect example where people were led like sheep to irresponsibly follow "admirable" ideas coming out of the Dark Ages and battles in mfcking 1389 and ruin their personal and collective wealth. There is nothing wrong with protecting personal wealth (acuired through work or hard work, I assume) in the short term. Short term is all we have after all, in the long term we'll be all dead. The YES front should have done a better job in explaining the plan for after the independence I guess, to ease people's fears.
Nikolle,
You’re some chap for putting words into people’s mouths.
I’m not decrying. I’m making the point it wasn’t a vote for the one big happy family – there are still massive problems with the structure of the UK. I had a vote and I used it, rightly or wrongly. No complaint from me in that respect.
“if you passionately believed in independence, you would have voted yes. ultimately i can only speculate that you didn't really think independence was a good idea”
Don’t speculate, read what I wrote.
My thought process- We could have a positive, prosperous, multi cultural, peaceful small country which is tolerant and more socially just. Then just by way of example:
1. rUK, You can't use the pound because we won't let you. Scare
2.Spain, you'll have to join the queue to join the EU because we won't let you. Self interest
3. Italy, the EU will fall apart.
4. France, the EU will fall apart
5. rUK, we'll make negotiation really hard. Scare
6. America, we need a strong UK, world politics
All of the above had nothing to do with our wee country and my thought process is that so many are against us we will be bankrupt in the short term. I'm honest enough to say I put my personal wealth and certainty first.
Now I'm going out for a pint in an extremely flat and deflated Glasgow. Have a good weekend.
"Am I to understand that those that supported Croatian independence and the independence of Kosovo supported the Union between England and Scotland?
Wish I could say that its just here that I'm seeing this, but its not. "
Of course it's not just here - the situations were entirely different, and so the response to them should be different. Scotland had legitimate gripes about the lack of local governmental powers, but nothing that can't be resolved by changing the rules, which London says it is willing to do. More local control throughout the Kingdom will be good for everybody. (For Americans: think of Texas trying to make rules for Massachusetts and New York. Ye Gods and little fishes!)
Maybe more importantly, Scots and Englishmen had not been killing each other recently over self-identification, England wasn't intent on establishing a Greater England ... Maybe Croatia could have been won over initially to staying in some kind of union with Serbia, but Serbian politicians were too intent on maintaining control, and sending in the tanks really had to end any chance of a political reconciliation. Kosovo was a different story - there had been too much bloodshed over too many decades.
The life of nations is too complicated to expect simplistic, one-size-fits-all, solutions. In any case, the Scots and the English both did us all proud in the way they handled this - maybe democracy can work, after all.
Scotland always had a very good chance of staying in the UK. Emotionally, many there are tied to the idea of a separate Scottish identity but economically it just didn't make sense for their best interest.
But what I believe is very inevitable is that the UK will leave the EUSSR within the next few years. Reasons being for this is there are no economic arguments for the UK to stay, but plenty of not just economic but also political and cultural reasons to separate the UK from the EU. It's a process that cannot be reversed because the EU is way too stuck in its ways and those ways are not benefiting the ordinary European.
Western Europe is in difficult position right now. Nation-states like Spain, Italy and Belgium are being threatened to internally break apart all the while anti EU sentiment is high in the UK, France, Austria, Denmark among other places.
And all of this is happening at a time of mass Muslim immigration, so much so that Sweden is now 40% immigrant with many of these immigrants not respecting the Swedish way of life.
While the rest of the world is growing economically, Western Europe is declining and some could even say imploding. Is this who the Serbian gov't wants governing Serbia? Because that's exactly what happens if Serbia joined the EU. You cease to be a country and you become governed by foreign central planners.
never suggested you predicted the outcome. You DID support Scottish independence however. You even claimed that Scottish culture and money had been usurped by the English. Outrageous! Congrats to the UK once again.
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 12:36)
Typical of you picking points out of a context and trying to build a false narrative.All I said was the bulk of North Sea oil ( 90% of it) belonged to Scotland and the rest to Uk. As per my posts of the 8th of April 2014 I did say about the referendum that "I personally wouldn't bother with it.Staying within Nato,EU,keeping the same currency,keeping the monarchy as head of state".I couldn't possibly support Salmond's referendum remit.
Ha, our Leonidas' Nostradamus doom predictions are blocked right at the start. Now the EU will survive, apparently. But maybe not, this winter they say is going to be particularly snowy, so EU will surely fall, and chaos and mayhem, right Leonidas? :)
(Reader, 19 September 2014 14:31)
This was my prediction on the Scottish Independence.Where is yours?
Of course pro-Union parties are going to campaign in favour of keeing the Union together; however they aren't saying that Scottish independence would be "illegal" as you have suggested/ implied. Also, internal factions within the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish Liberal Democrats are campaigning in favour of Scottish Independence.
(Ian, UK, 9 April 2014 00:32)
BTW You'll be pleasantly surprised to hear that I am not of the opinion that Scotts will opt for independence.There is a lot of fear-mongering and threats(from business and political elites) on the future of the Scottish population and I think in the end they will opt for the easy option to continue with the Union.
(Leonidas, 9 April 2014 12:23)
I feel like this discussion is a bit like a paralell universe. Am I to understand that Serbs (who mostly supported a sovereign Jugoslavija) supported Scottish nationalism - ie an indepedent state of Scotland?
Am I to understand that those that supported Croatian independence and the independence of Kosovo supported the Union between England and Scotland?
Wish I could say that its just here that I'm seeing this, but its not.
People are full of spite and are not being principled in their thinking. My 'enemy' supports this, so I support the opposite etc..
We are all getting older, its high time we started growing up.
I apologise for pushing this on, but surely you recognised the significance of the referendum. there's no point in decrying the result now, you had a chance to cast your vote (a once in a generation chance according to Salmond) and despite your better judgement, you voted no. there is uncertainty to anything new. if you passionately believed in independence, you would have voted yes. ultimately i can only speculate that you didn't really think independence was a good idea. i'm not passing judgement on why you think that is, just honestly curious into your thought process. you say you could see through the negativity and doom of the No side, yet you still chose them. you say, in the short term Scotland may have suffered, but long term it would have been better off independent, yet still chose to vote no. now fair play to you,for admitting that ultimately what swayed your decision, was not really the negativity of the No side, or the scaremongering, but that you felt your own personal wealth may be at risk in the event of yes vote.
Lesson four: intelligent debate.
(Bob, 19 September 2014 10:09)
LOL where? Salmond's independence campaign was a joke from the start and Cameron's half-assed attempt at preserving the Union actually made an irrelevant movement into something people actually considered competitive. While I'm glad the Union was preserved and sanity prevailed, it's amazing it happened in spite of the horridly stupid rationales from the "No" camp.
OK, so why did you not think long term in the booth? i mean, if you believe in independence passionately, surely, some short term pain is worth the long term cost?
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 14:13)
I wrote a comment to add to the debate. Many comments seem to suggest that this is a ringing endorsement for the UK. I can only add my personal opinion but I believe a significant amount of people,but by no means all, voted no for similar reasons.
It’s really not that easy to make a decision when it depends on how other people and countries act/react. I walked round the block in a circle before casting my vote – I didn’t know what to do, only that I had to vote. Maybe I should have voted yes. Simple answer is that I put my personal wealth and short term certainty first – not very admirable, I know.
Another poster pointed this out – it’s not over. Lots of promises have been made and those promises may not sit well with the English electorate. This is some mess we are in but I guess the structural problems in the UK had to arise sooner or later.
OK, so why did you not think long term in the booth? i mean, if you believe in independence passionately, surely, some short term pain is worth the long term cost?
Ha, our Leonidas' Nostradamus doom predictions are blocked right at the start. Now the EU will survive, apparently. But maybe not, this winter they say is going to be particularly snowy, so EU will surely fall, and chaos and mayhem, right Leonidas? :)
Ian, Uk
If you were actually close to this you would realise that Irish decent had absolutely nothing to do with how people voted - I hope it wasn’t just a cheap sectarian slur.
Why on earth did you mention that the Scots were the most British if you didn’t mean it by reference to the article – what point are you making? I think you will know that the fervent unionism to which you refer is a dwindling legacy of sectarianism – less and less relevant as time passes. Whatever way you look at it your statement that the Scots are the most British is a little absurd, sorry.
No matter what distinction you or any politician may wish to argue, 45% voting for independence whilst being the most British people in the UK seems an incredible contradiction.
Thank you for your judgment that I am not serious about this issue – you are wrong. I voted no for the reasons I stated not because I believe in this current UK which has growing food banks, massive stores of nuclear weapons on my doorstep, get’s involved in illegal wars, has millions on children in food poverty and is controlled by a bunch of private school boys from middle England.
Ian, UK
"Also one has to remember that Scotland is the most BRITISH part of the UK."
Not sure what you mean by “most British” but are you suggesting England is less that 55% British? Scotland’s largest city voted for independence – most British?
For the record I voted No. The reason is that I bottled it - it was going to get nasty. All the bullying and "fear" put forward by big business, Westminster, certain EU countries, America and others worked on me.
I stood at that ballot box for 5 minutes moving the pencil between yes and no. I felt terrible walking away after voting no. This morning I am despondent that we remain in a stagnant UK with all it is social injustice and inequality. And this was much more about change being needed than raw nationalism.
I have always believed that we can do better on our own but when you have so many external people against you it is a battle that cannot be won.
The plastic Scots of Irish decent in Glasgow voted Yes. Whoopty do!
And it is disappointing that the fear-mongering from the Yes camp didn't work on you either.
This wasn't a vote on being British, this was a vote on independence. Voting Yes doesn't mean you're not British. Even Nicola Sturgeon said that you can still be British in an independent Scotland. When I said Scotland is the most British part of the UK, I meant that the Scots are the Brits who are the most serious about Unionism unlike the stupid ignorant little Englanders in Southern England who actually think that England, Scotland, Wales and NI are sovereign countries.
If you were serious about independence, you would have voted Yes. It doesn't matter what others think, it is about what YOU want because that is what Independence means!
so what? William Wallace lived in a different time. today's Scotland faces other challenges. Maybe if people in the Balkans spent less time worrying about dead people rolling in their graves, that part of Europe would be much more peaceful and tolerant
Out of curiosity, why did you bottle it? Reading your post, one gets the impression that you saw through the fear mongering and lies of the No side. if you saw through it, why did you fall for it anyway?
There are People who say that they have Evidence that the Scottish Referendum was Rigged at [link]/ .
The Video is Titled: PROOF 'SCOTLAND INDEPENDENCE VOTE' WAS RIGGED at [link] , and the Photos at [link] , and [link] .
(Yet Another J S, 19 September 2014 11:57)
Out of curiosity, why did you bottle it? Reading your post, one gets the impression that you saw through the fear mongering and lies of the No side. if you saw through it, why did you fall for it anyway?
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 13:29)
Actually Nikolle, it wasn’t the no side as such. It was business, banks and a certain EU countries particularly Spain who made it quite clear they would make it difficult for seemless EU membership. That, together with lack of trust in negotiation with rUK would have seen us bakrupt despite the fact that I think we would be successful long term otherwise.
The genie of enhanced devolution for Scotland and other countries which make up the UK ( as promised by the political establishment )is out of the bottle and needs clarification as soon as possible.However I do sense a scenario of unintended consequences coming up fast.Failure by Cameron to deliver on the promises he made before the Scottish referendum will in my opinion seal his fate.
I never suggested you predicted the outcome. You DID support Scottish independence however. You even claimed that Scottish culture and money had been usurped by the English. Outrageous! Congrats to the UK once again.
There are People who say that they have Evidence that the Scottish Referendum was Rigged at [link]/ .
The Video is Titled: PROOF 'SCOTLAND INDEPENDENCE VOTE' WAS RIGGED at [link] , and the Photos at [link] , and [link] .
(Yet Another J S, 19 September 2014 11:57)
If Iranian media says it, then it must be true.
Some people who are unhappy with the result of a vote, try and find a way to undermind it and try to produce "evidence".
I wonder what the Anti-Brit clan are thinking right now? I bet they were tent-polling at the thought of a break-up of the United Kingdom. Well my Scottish brothers have voiced their their choice on the future of Scotland and it was THEIR choice with a huge lead in favour of NO to independence. With Scotland, one has to understand that it hasn't been oppressed unlike other countries which have become independent recently such as East Timor, South Sudan, Kosovo, Bosnia, Estonia, Eritrea ect. Scottish politicians have always dominated UK politics. Also one has to remember that Scotland is the most BRITISH part of the UK. My Scottish brothers knew that in the event of a YES vote, the UK would recognise THEIR CHOICE and it wouldn't result in a War; that means a lot. I like Alex Salmond's social policies and would probably have voted YES had I been fully Scottish and born in Scotland. However All of my father's side of the family voted NO and I'm pleased because I don't want my family split across two counties; I was however looking forwards to Scottish citizenship and a Scottish passport in the event of a YES vote.
Anyway, to all those disappointed nationalists who were looking forwards to the Balkanisation of the UK, you can still enjoy the Balkanisation of Spain. This will not be a smooth process unlike the independence of Scotland had they of voted YES.
Soctland has always been my favourite part of the UK and it will be forever my Fatherland.
well, one wonders what Zoran, sj, SPCUK, Leonidas will say now. congrats to the UK
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 10:09)
It seems to me that you glow in self-gratification by falsely including my name on the list of supporters of Scottish Independence.
Unlike yourself and other Albanians which sit on the fence on every issue I did make a prediction back on the 8th of April 2014 that Scotland will stay within the Union.
I've also said on a reply to Ian that "Back to the bueprint for independence I personally wouldn't bother with it.Staying within Nato,EU,keeping the same currency,keeping the monarchy as head of state,he's got all that why bother?"
There are People who say that they have Evidence that the Scottish Referendum was Rigged at http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/17/379057/vote-rigging-feared-in-scotland-vote/ .
The Video is Titled: PROOF 'SCOTLAND INDEPENDENCE VOTE' WAS RIGGED at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUR-HgAtwtg , and the Photos at http://i.imgur.com/9e3m8dj.png , and http://i.imgur.com/PgRbeOf.jpg .
The last civil war to take place in the British Isles was in 1645. It took decades for the population to recover. The last civil war to take place in the former Yugoslavia ended in 1945, with the communist takeover of Tito's partisans. Britain is geographically isolated from the turmoil of European wars and politics. British democracy is firmly entrenched within a constitutional monarchy. The people of Yugoslavia were never given the opportunity to develop a mature political culture free of the poison of ethno-religious nationalism. That applies to ALL the peoples of former Yugoslavia to a lesser or greater degree. If Yugoslavia had fallen into the orbit of western European democratic institutions after the second world war, there probably never would have been the chaos and bloodshed of the 1990's.
I know Serbs and Russians wanted the breakup of UK to happen so badly. Unfortunately for Serbians this is bad news. If Serbia had its acts right back then who knows Yugoslavia might have lasted longer than 45 years. This is how it is done, great example by David Cameron. He gave Scotland the opportunity to declare independence and yet they chose to stay in the union. Even Montenegro couldn't stay by Serbia's side.
I know Serbs and Russians wanted the breakup of UK to happen so badly. Unfortunately for Serbians this is bad news. If Serbia had its acts right back then who knows Yugoslavia might have lasted longer than 45 years. This is how it is done, great example by David Cameron. He gave Scotland the opportunity to declare independence and yet they chose to stay in the union. Even Montenegro couldn't stay by Serbia's side.
The last civil war to take place in the British Isles was in 1645. It took decades for the population to recover. The last civil war to take place in the former Yugoslavia ended in 1945, with the communist takeover of Tito's partisans. Britain is geographically isolated from the turmoil of European wars and politics. British democracy is firmly entrenched within a constitutional monarchy. The people of Yugoslavia were never given the opportunity to develop a mature political culture free of the poison of ethno-religious nationalism. That applies to ALL the peoples of former Yugoslavia to a lesser or greater degree. If Yugoslavia had fallen into the orbit of western European democratic institutions after the second world war, there probably never would have been the chaos and bloodshed of the 1990's.
The genie of enhanced devolution for Scotland and other countries which make up the UK ( as promised by the political establishment )is out of the bottle and needs clarification as soon as possible.However I do sense a scenario of unintended consequences coming up fast.Failure by Cameron to deliver on the promises he made before the Scottish referendum will in my opinion seal his fate.
I wonder what the Anti-Brit clan are thinking right now? I bet they were tent-polling at the thought of a break-up of the United Kingdom. Well my Scottish brothers have voiced their their choice on the future of Scotland and it was THEIR choice with a huge lead in favour of NO to independence. With Scotland, one has to understand that it hasn't been oppressed unlike other countries which have become independent recently such as East Timor, South Sudan, Kosovo, Bosnia, Estonia, Eritrea ect. Scottish politicians have always dominated UK politics. Also one has to remember that Scotland is the most BRITISH part of the UK. My Scottish brothers knew that in the event of a YES vote, the UK would recognise THEIR CHOICE and it wouldn't result in a War; that means a lot. I like Alex Salmond's social policies and would probably have voted YES had I been fully Scottish and born in Scotland. However All of my father's side of the family voted NO and I'm pleased because I don't want my family split across two counties; I was however looking forwards to Scottish citizenship and a Scottish passport in the event of a YES vote.
Anyway, to all those disappointed nationalists who were looking forwards to the Balkanisation of the UK, you can still enjoy the Balkanisation of Spain. This will not be a smooth process unlike the independence of Scotland had they of voted YES.
Soctland has always been my favourite part of the UK and it will be forever my Fatherland.
well, one wonders what Zoran, sj, SPCUK, Leonidas will say now. congrats to the UK
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 10:09)
It seems to me that you glow in self-gratification by falsely including my name on the list of supporters of Scottish Independence.
Unlike yourself and other Albanians which sit on the fence on every issue I did make a prediction back on the 8th of April 2014 that Scotland will stay within the Union.
I've also said on a reply to Ian that "Back to the bueprint for independence I personally wouldn't bother with it.Staying within Nato,EU,keeping the same currency,keeping the monarchy as head of state,he's got all that why bother?"
I never suggested you predicted the outcome. You DID support Scottish independence however. You even claimed that Scottish culture and money had been usurped by the English. Outrageous! Congrats to the UK once again.
so what? William Wallace lived in a different time. today's Scotland faces other challenges. Maybe if people in the Balkans spent less time worrying about dead people rolling in their graves, that part of Europe would be much more peaceful and tolerant
Ian, UK
"Also one has to remember that Scotland is the most BRITISH part of the UK."
Not sure what you mean by “most British” but are you suggesting England is less that 55% British? Scotland’s largest city voted for independence – most British?
For the record I voted No. The reason is that I bottled it - it was going to get nasty. All the bullying and "fear" put forward by big business, Westminster, certain EU countries, America and others worked on me.
I stood at that ballot box for 5 minutes moving the pencil between yes and no. I felt terrible walking away after voting no. This morning I am despondent that we remain in a stagnant UK with all it is social injustice and inequality. And this was much more about change being needed than raw nationalism.
I have always believed that we can do better on our own but when you have so many external people against you it is a battle that cannot be won.
I feel like this discussion is a bit like a paralell universe. Am I to understand that Serbs (who mostly supported a sovereign Jugoslavija) supported Scottish nationalism - ie an indepedent state of Scotland?
Am I to understand that those that supported Croatian independence and the independence of Kosovo supported the Union between England and Scotland?
Wish I could say that its just here that I'm seeing this, but its not.
People are full of spite and are not being principled in their thinking. My 'enemy' supports this, so I support the opposite etc..
We are all getting older, its high time we started growing up.
never suggested you predicted the outcome. You DID support Scottish independence however. You even claimed that Scottish culture and money had been usurped by the English. Outrageous! Congrats to the UK once again.
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 12:36)
Typical of you picking points out of a context and trying to build a false narrative.All I said was the bulk of North Sea oil ( 90% of it) belonged to Scotland and the rest to Uk. As per my posts of the 8th of April 2014 I did say about the referendum that "I personally wouldn't bother with it.Staying within Nato,EU,keeping the same currency,keeping the monarchy as head of state".I couldn't possibly support Salmond's referendum remit.
no wars, no genocide, no living hell - thank you very much, Serbia! Civilized ppl, civilized decisions. thank you to democracy, and to the ppl of scotland. I think we have the best of all worlds here...
There are People who say that they have Evidence that the Scottish Referendum was Rigged at http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/17/379057/vote-rigging-feared-in-scotland-vote/ .
The Video is Titled: PROOF 'SCOTLAND INDEPENDENCE VOTE' WAS RIGGED at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUR-HgAtwtg , and the Photos at http://i.imgur.com/9e3m8dj.png , and http://i.imgur.com/PgRbeOf.jpg .
There are People who say that they have Evidence that the Scottish Referendum was Rigged at [link]/ .
The Video is Titled: PROOF 'SCOTLAND INDEPENDENCE VOTE' WAS RIGGED at [link] , and the Photos at [link] , and [link] .
(Yet Another J S, 19 September 2014 11:57)
If Iranian media says it, then it must be true.
Some people who are unhappy with the result of a vote, try and find a way to undermind it and try to produce "evidence".
Out of curiosity, why did you bottle it? Reading your post, one gets the impression that you saw through the fear mongering and lies of the No side. if you saw through it, why did you fall for it anyway?
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 13:29)
Actually Nikolle, it wasn’t the no side as such. It was business, banks and a certain EU countries particularly Spain who made it quite clear they would make it difficult for seemless EU membership. That, together with lack of trust in negotiation with rUK would have seen us bakrupt despite the fact that I think we would be successful long term otherwise.
Ian, Uk
If you were actually close to this you would realise that Irish decent had absolutely nothing to do with how people voted - I hope it wasn’t just a cheap sectarian slur.
Why on earth did you mention that the Scots were the most British if you didn’t mean it by reference to the article – what point are you making? I think you will know that the fervent unionism to which you refer is a dwindling legacy of sectarianism – less and less relevant as time passes. Whatever way you look at it your statement that the Scots are the most British is a little absurd, sorry.
No matter what distinction you or any politician may wish to argue, 45% voting for independence whilst being the most British people in the UK seems an incredible contradiction.
Thank you for your judgment that I am not serious about this issue – you are wrong. I voted no for the reasons I stated not because I believe in this current UK which has growing food banks, massive stores of nuclear weapons on my doorstep, get’s involved in illegal wars, has millions on children in food poverty and is controlled by a bunch of private school boys from middle England.
OK, so why did you not think long term in the booth? i mean, if you believe in independence passionately, surely, some short term pain is worth the long term cost?
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 14:13)
I wrote a comment to add to the debate. Many comments seem to suggest that this is a ringing endorsement for the UK. I can only add my personal opinion but I believe a significant amount of people,but by no means all, voted no for similar reasons.
It’s really not that easy to make a decision when it depends on how other people and countries act/react. I walked round the block in a circle before casting my vote – I didn’t know what to do, only that I had to vote. Maybe I should have voted yes. Simple answer is that I put my personal wealth and short term certainty first – not very admirable, I know.
Another poster pointed this out – it’s not over. Lots of promises have been made and those promises may not sit well with the English electorate. This is some mess we are in but I guess the structural problems in the UK had to arise sooner or later.
Lesson four: intelligent debate.
(Bob, 19 September 2014 10:09)
LOL where? Salmond's independence campaign was a joke from the start and Cameron's half-assed attempt at preserving the Union actually made an irrelevant movement into something people actually considered competitive. While I'm glad the Union was preserved and sanity prevailed, it's amazing it happened in spite of the horridly stupid rationales from the "No" camp.
(bganon, 19 September 2014 16:35
On the surface I can see your point but you over simplify it. The big point is you cannot compare the situation in the UK right now with the situation in Yugoslavia post Tito.
Most of the Serbs supporting a split by Scotland is simply wanting "payback" for Britain.
Also you cannot correlate the desires to keep UK together as being in conflict of seeing Kosovo separated from Serbia. There was no present day violence in Scotland by UK, no matter how you feel about the Albanians the scourge of Milosevic is very well documented and without question internationally. Plus there is a huge difference with 45% of the people wanting to break away from Britain but still wanting a close relationship, still part of the crown, wanting to use the same currency etc,, and 90+% wanting Kosovo to separate totally with Serbia.
But it has always amazed me how even today so many Serbs just see the break of Croatia and Kosovo as simple separatist movements.
England had already started plans for a peaceful separation, whereas, Milosevic made plans for a bloody reaction to any separation.
So comparison of the two is even more confusing than not comparing the two.
Scotland always had a very good chance of staying in the UK. Emotionally, many there are tied to the idea of a separate Scottish identity but economically it just didn't make sense for their best interest.
But what I believe is very inevitable is that the UK will leave the EUSSR within the next few years. Reasons being for this is there are no economic arguments for the UK to stay, but plenty of not just economic but also political and cultural reasons to separate the UK from the EU. It's a process that cannot be reversed because the EU is way too stuck in its ways and those ways are not benefiting the ordinary European.
Western Europe is in difficult position right now. Nation-states like Spain, Italy and Belgium are being threatened to internally break apart all the while anti EU sentiment is high in the UK, France, Austria, Denmark among other places.
And all of this is happening at a time of mass Muslim immigration, so much so that Sweden is now 40% immigrant with many of these immigrants not respecting the Swedish way of life.
While the rest of the world is growing economically, Western Europe is declining and some could even say imploding. Is this who the Serbian gov't wants governing Serbia? Because that's exactly what happens if Serbia joined the EU. You cease to be a country and you become governed by foreign central planners.
Out of curiosity, why did you bottle it? Reading your post, one gets the impression that you saw through the fear mongering and lies of the No side. if you saw through it, why did you fall for it anyway?
"Am I to understand that those that supported Croatian independence and the independence of Kosovo supported the Union between England and Scotland?
Wish I could say that its just here that I'm seeing this, but its not. "
Of course it's not just here - the situations were entirely different, and so the response to them should be different. Scotland had legitimate gripes about the lack of local governmental powers, but nothing that can't be resolved by changing the rules, which London says it is willing to do. More local control throughout the Kingdom will be good for everybody. (For Americans: think of Texas trying to make rules for Massachusetts and New York. Ye Gods and little fishes!)
Maybe more importantly, Scots and Englishmen had not been killing each other recently over self-identification, England wasn't intent on establishing a Greater England ... Maybe Croatia could have been won over initially to staying in some kind of union with Serbia, but Serbian politicians were too intent on maintaining control, and sending in the tanks really had to end any chance of a political reconciliation. Kosovo was a different story - there had been too much bloodshed over too many decades.
The life of nations is too complicated to expect simplistic, one-size-fits-all, solutions. In any case, the Scots and the English both did us all proud in the way they handled this - maybe democracy can work, after all.
The result was not as close as predicted, but it was still too close for the NO camp, they should have got 60-70% against not 55 and they had to really mobilise their supporters at the last minuet to defeat the Yes camp as they would likely have won. Unsuccessful this time, but Scotland could be here again in less than 20 years if the UK government backtracks on more autonomy for Scotland. Yes did better than expected and came way closer than anyone would have expected years ago or even a few months ago.
what did I take out of context there?
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 17:27)
The context is the whole exchange that I had with Ian.I was replying to Ian's comment in which he claimed that Scotland was heavily subsidised by the rest of the UK and in which I replied that According the UK's Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR)the UK has benefited to the tune of £300 billion since oil production started in North Sea.Imagine what a small country like Scotland could've done with these sums of money in terms of development. As to the rest of my comment about land and culture read the following link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
However , my comment doesn't imply neither explicit nor implicit support for Scottish independence on its present remit.The axis of evil -EU,Nato and monarchy were still central in Salmond's independence.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
It amazes me everytime that someone uses the EUSSR term as somehow comparing the EU with the former soviet union. Especially because those very same people are ardent supporters of Putin whose goals are undeniably to rebuild the former USSR.
There are People who say that they have Evidence that the Scottish Referendum was Rigged at [link]/ .
The Video is Titled: PROOF 'SCOTLAND INDEPENDENCE VOTE' WAS RIGGED at [link] , and the Photos at [link] , and [link] .
(Yet Another J S, 19 September 2014 11:57)
Ha, our Leonidas' Nostradamus doom predictions are blocked right at the start. Now the EU will survive, apparently. But maybe not, this winter they say is going to be particularly snowy, so EU will surely fall, and chaos and mayhem, right Leonidas? :)
(Reader, 19 September 2014 14:31)
This was my prediction on the Scottish Independence.Where is yours?
Of course pro-Union parties are going to campaign in favour of keeing the Union together; however they aren't saying that Scottish independence would be "illegal" as you have suggested/ implied. Also, internal factions within the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish Liberal Democrats are campaigning in favour of Scottish Independence.
(Ian, UK, 9 April 2014 00:32)
BTW You'll be pleasantly surprised to hear that I am not of the opinion that Scotts will opt for independence.There is a lot of fear-mongering and threats(from business and political elites) on the future of the Scottish population and I think in the end they will opt for the easy option to continue with the Union.
(Leonidas, 9 April 2014 12:23)
Nikolle,
You’re some chap for putting words into people’s mouths.
I’m not decrying. I’m making the point it wasn’t a vote for the one big happy family – there are still massive problems with the structure of the UK. I had a vote and I used it, rightly or wrongly. No complaint from me in that respect.
“if you passionately believed in independence, you would have voted yes. ultimately i can only speculate that you didn't really think independence was a good idea”
Don’t speculate, read what I wrote.
My thought process- We could have a positive, prosperous, multi cultural, peaceful small country which is tolerant and more socially just. Then just by way of example:
1. rUK, You can't use the pound because we won't let you. Scare
2.Spain, you'll have to join the queue to join the EU because we won't let you. Self interest
3. Italy, the EU will fall apart.
4. France, the EU will fall apart
5. rUK, we'll make negotiation really hard. Scare
6. America, we need a strong UK, world politics
All of the above had nothing to do with our wee country and my thought process is that so many are against us we will be bankrupt in the short term. I'm honest enough to say I put my personal wealth and certainty first.
Now I'm going out for a pint in an extremely flat and deflated Glasgow. Have a good weekend.
OK, so why did you not think long term in the booth? i mean, if you believe in independence passionately, surely, some short term pain is worth the long term cost?
I apologise for pushing this on, but surely you recognised the significance of the referendum. there's no point in decrying the result now, you had a chance to cast your vote (a once in a generation chance according to Salmond) and despite your better judgement, you voted no. there is uncertainty to anything new. if you passionately believed in independence, you would have voted yes. ultimately i can only speculate that you didn't really think independence was a good idea. i'm not passing judgement on why you think that is, just honestly curious into your thought process. you say you could see through the negativity and doom of the No side, yet you still chose them. you say, in the short term Scotland may have suffered, but long term it would have been better off independent, yet still chose to vote no. now fair play to you,for admitting that ultimately what swayed your decision, was not really the negativity of the No side, or the scaremongering, but that you felt your own personal wealth may be at risk in the event of yes vote.
The plastic Scots of Irish decent in Glasgow voted Yes. Whoopty do!
And it is disappointing that the fear-mongering from the Yes camp didn't work on you either.
This wasn't a vote on being British, this was a vote on independence. Voting Yes doesn't mean you're not British. Even Nicola Sturgeon said that you can still be British in an independent Scotland. When I said Scotland is the most British part of the UK, I meant that the Scots are the Brits who are the most serious about Unionism unlike the stupid ignorant little Englanders in Southern England who actually think that England, Scotland, Wales and NI are sovereign countries.
If you were serious about independence, you would have voted Yes. It doesn't matter what others think, it is about what YOU want because that is what Independence means!
"Maybe I should have voted yes. Simple answer is that I put my personal wealth and short term certainty first – not very admirable, I know."
On the contrary, I think that process is very admirable. You taking note that you are not alone and that there are others, that your actions may have consequences that affect others and that those consequences may bring other reactions that affect you in return. I am just talking about the process you described in the booth, not about the validity of those assumptions. That thinking process is not as easy as it seems, the 90's in the Balkans are a perfect example where people were led like sheep to irresponsibly follow "admirable" ideas coming out of the Dark Ages and battles in mfcking 1389 and ruin their personal and collective wealth. There is nothing wrong with protecting personal wealth (acuired through work or hard work, I assume) in the short term. Short term is all we have after all, in the long term we'll be all dead. The YES front should have done a better job in explaining the plan for after the independence I guess, to ease people's fears.
On this topic i feel the need to say my bit about some things that may be reported internationally about events in Glasgow tonight. I've seen headlines of rival faction of pro union and yes activists tonight.
The truth was that 200 "loyalists" a small part of the 55% no voters and in no way representative, were attacking anyone with visible signs of being Scottish. This is a nasty fringe in our society, don't mistake that for genuine political differences in the vast majority in the no or yes side. "loyalists" are the people who live in the history of the troubles in Northern Ireland. Here they are in all their "glory" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZkTCwls5PE#t=18
I also ask you to consider the morals of your regular contributor, Ian UK, on a point I took issue with. Those 200 people were part of his “most British” and the songs they are singing is “why don’t you go home” which is a reference to the potato famine in Ireland. Which ties in with his “plastic Scots of Irish decent” comment.
Ian, what do you have to say? Your “most British” Scots really done a job on the socialists in George Square didn’t they? An organised and co-ordinated assault on peaceful people – out of the blue.
there are no economic arguments for the UK to stay, but plenty of not just economic but also political and cultural reasons to separate the UK from the EU. It's a process that cannot be reversed because the EU is way too stuck in its ways and those ways are not benefiting the ordinary European.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
I'm sure it must be so since perhaps Serbianna.com says so :)
----------
Western Europe is in difficult position right now. Nation-states like Spain, Italy and Belgium are being threatened to internally break apart
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
What's the problem with that? Instead of a single Italy having Italy A and Italy B... Nobody is going to take up arms because they are not stupid like the Serbs. Czech Rep. and Slovakia are no worse off than Czechoslovakia.
----------
all the while anti EU sentiment is high in the UK, France, Austria, Denmark among other places.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
It's unfortunate that your great wishes don't correspond to the reality http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/06/17/eu-referendum-record-lead/
----------
While the rest of the world is growing economically, Western Europe is declining and some could even say imploding.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
Who told you that? Serbianna.com again?! You present your wishes as the reality without any effort to confirm if that's the case or not. It sounds like you love living in denial when the reality does not match your wishes.
Many commentors here talk about how the break-ups of the UK (potential) and Yugoslavia (actual) are different, and that's true.
To see those differences in a better light we have to look at why such unions were created in the first place.
The union between Scotland and England (Wales and Ireland were already in the union before then)was formed without the consent of those nations' peoples and for the purpose of creating an empire that largely served a small elite in both England and Scotland.
The creation of Yugoslavia in 1919, however, had a greater, though not universal, degree of consent among the peoples and the overall motive was to defend them all against foreign empires under which they had lived for centuries.
I would call that a massive difference and it's why I was against the break-up of Yugoslavia but see no problem with the same happening in a peaceful, civilised way in the UK.
I have a message for you. I hope you listen.
I posted in all honesty about my opinion and my feelings. It is an emotional and difficult time for me and all of us in my country. I was happy to discuss and give my side. However, I cannot help but be insulted by the patronising way you pointed out to me the importance of the vote in my country about our future. And I cannot also ignore how you tried twist what I said – in fact you went further. You said that I said things that I did not say.
I don’t know where you come from or anything about you but you really need to look in a mirror and think why you are that way and what you will do to change.
Here’s to honesty and debate and mutual respect. You should get some.
Ha, our Leonidas' Nostradamus doom predictions are blocked right at the start. Now the EU will survive, apparently. But maybe not, this winter they say is going to be particularly snowy, so EU will surely fall, and chaos and mayhem, right Leonidas? :)
Like the Serbs the Scots have become lazy and dependent on others. The Serbs would previously siphon funds from ZG & LJ and the Scots continue to beg for handouts from London. Naturally the scots voted against, when gaining independence means you have to work to build your country. Take Serbia for example without the support from Croatia and Slovenia it is no better off then Bulgaria or Romania. Salaries have never been so low and people if they could would live abroad, they would. The Serbs are still crying the once DEFUNCT'YU is no more !
I believe it was probably a wise decision for the Scots to make at the moment. Independence is a very costly and obtuse procedure to go through on a realistic level, one they do not need to go through. The wars on the British Isles are truly a thing of the past. Idealistically, I like the idea of an independent Scotland, but if most people don't want it, then this is their choice.
I do have to say, though, 55% no and 45% yes? That is not a big margin at all. Almost 50/50. It shows that nearly half of Scots are not happy with Labour at all and voted for independence. Labour REALLY needs to change a lot if they really want to keep the UK together and not just by a small margin of people in the component states. Cameron shouldn't be talking about his "heart being broken" if Scotland chose to break away from the UK, rather take an active interest in those 45% that wanted to break away from London and his rule.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
It amazes me everytime that someone uses the EUSSR term as somehow comparing the EU with the former soviet union. Especially because those very same people are ardent supporters of Putin whose goals are undeniably to rebuild the former USSR.
(amazing, 21 September 2014 03:19)
Not really. The EU is more resembling of USSR today than Russia is. Believe it or not, Russia existed before the 45 years that the Soviet Union existed. It is a civilization that has existed for hundreds of years and in fact it was the Russian state that had to be defeated in order for the USSR to come to power.
Ironically, Crimea was given to Ukraine from who? The Soviet Union. If anything, Russia rewrote this historical blunder after the overthrow of the democratically elected gov't in Kiev.
I know Serbs and Russians wanted the breakup of UK to happen so badly. Unfortunately for Serbians this is bad news. If Serbia had its acts right back then who knows Yugoslavia might have lasted longer than 45 years. This is how it is done, great example by David Cameron. He gave Scotland the opportunity to declare independence and yet they chose to stay in the union. Even Montenegro couldn't stay by Serbia's side.
I wonder what the Anti-Brit clan are thinking right now? I bet they were tent-polling at the thought of a break-up of the United Kingdom. Well my Scottish brothers have voiced their their choice on the future of Scotland and it was THEIR choice with a huge lead in favour of NO to independence. With Scotland, one has to understand that it hasn't been oppressed unlike other countries which have become independent recently such as East Timor, South Sudan, Kosovo, Bosnia, Estonia, Eritrea ect. Scottish politicians have always dominated UK politics. Also one has to remember that Scotland is the most BRITISH part of the UK. My Scottish brothers knew that in the event of a YES vote, the UK would recognise THEIR CHOICE and it wouldn't result in a War; that means a lot. I like Alex Salmond's social policies and would probably have voted YES had I been fully Scottish and born in Scotland. However All of my father's side of the family voted NO and I'm pleased because I don't want my family split across two counties; I was however looking forwards to Scottish citizenship and a Scottish passport in the event of a YES vote.
Anyway, to all those disappointed nationalists who were looking forwards to the Balkanisation of the UK, you can still enjoy the Balkanisation of Spain. This will not be a smooth process unlike the independence of Scotland had they of voted YES.
Soctland has always been my favourite part of the UK and it will be forever my Fatherland.
I never suggested you predicted the outcome. You DID support Scottish independence however. You even claimed that Scottish culture and money had been usurped by the English. Outrageous! Congrats to the UK once again.
The plastic Scots of Irish decent in Glasgow voted Yes. Whoopty do!
And it is disappointing that the fear-mongering from the Yes camp didn't work on you either.
This wasn't a vote on being British, this was a vote on independence. Voting Yes doesn't mean you're not British. Even Nicola Sturgeon said that you can still be British in an independent Scotland. When I said Scotland is the most British part of the UK, I meant that the Scots are the Brits who are the most serious about Unionism unlike the stupid ignorant little Englanders in Southern England who actually think that England, Scotland, Wales and NI are sovereign countries.
If you were serious about independence, you would have voted Yes. It doesn't matter what others think, it is about what YOU want because that is what Independence means!
so what? William Wallace lived in a different time. today's Scotland faces other challenges. Maybe if people in the Balkans spent less time worrying about dead people rolling in their graves, that part of Europe would be much more peaceful and tolerant
I apologise for pushing this on, but surely you recognised the significance of the referendum. there's no point in decrying the result now, you had a chance to cast your vote (a once in a generation chance according to Salmond) and despite your better judgement, you voted no. there is uncertainty to anything new. if you passionately believed in independence, you would have voted yes. ultimately i can only speculate that you didn't really think independence was a good idea. i'm not passing judgement on why you think that is, just honestly curious into your thought process. you say you could see through the negativity and doom of the No side, yet you still chose them. you say, in the short term Scotland may have suffered, but long term it would have been better off independent, yet still chose to vote no. now fair play to you,for admitting that ultimately what swayed your decision, was not really the negativity of the No side, or the scaremongering, but that you felt your own personal wealth may be at risk in the event of yes vote.
There are People who say that they have Evidence that the Scottish Referendum was Rigged at [link]/ .
The Video is Titled: PROOF 'SCOTLAND INDEPENDENCE VOTE' WAS RIGGED at [link] , and the Photos at [link] , and [link] .
(Yet Another J S, 19 September 2014 11:57)
If Iranian media says it, then it must be true.
Some people who are unhappy with the result of a vote, try and find a way to undermind it and try to produce "evidence".
no wars, no genocide, no living hell - thank you very much, Serbia! Civilized ppl, civilized decisions. thank you to democracy, and to the ppl of scotland. I think we have the best of all worlds here...
There are People who say that they have Evidence that the Scottish Referendum was Rigged at [link]/ .
The Video is Titled: PROOF 'SCOTLAND INDEPENDENCE VOTE' WAS RIGGED at [link] , and the Photos at [link] , and [link] .
(Yet Another J S, 19 September 2014 11:57)
Out of curiosity, why did you bottle it? Reading your post, one gets the impression that you saw through the fear mongering and lies of the No side. if you saw through it, why did you fall for it anyway?
Ha, our Leonidas' Nostradamus doom predictions are blocked right at the start. Now the EU will survive, apparently. But maybe not, this winter they say is going to be particularly snowy, so EU will surely fall, and chaos and mayhem, right Leonidas? :)
OK, so why did you not think long term in the booth? i mean, if you believe in independence passionately, surely, some short term pain is worth the long term cost?
I feel like this discussion is a bit like a paralell universe. Am I to understand that Serbs (who mostly supported a sovereign Jugoslavija) supported Scottish nationalism - ie an indepedent state of Scotland?
Am I to understand that those that supported Croatian independence and the independence of Kosovo supported the Union between England and Scotland?
Wish I could say that its just here that I'm seeing this, but its not.
People are full of spite and are not being principled in their thinking. My 'enemy' supports this, so I support the opposite etc..
We are all getting older, its high time we started growing up.
There are People who say that they have Evidence that the Scottish Referendum was Rigged at http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/17/379057/vote-rigging-feared-in-scotland-vote/ .
The Video is Titled: PROOF 'SCOTLAND INDEPENDENCE VOTE' WAS RIGGED at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUR-HgAtwtg , and the Photos at http://i.imgur.com/9e3m8dj.png , and http://i.imgur.com/PgRbeOf.jpg .
Like the Serbs the Scots have become lazy and dependent on others. The Serbs would previously siphon funds from ZG & LJ and the Scots continue to beg for handouts from London. Naturally the scots voted against, when gaining independence means you have to work to build your country. Take Serbia for example without the support from Croatia and Slovenia it is no better off then Bulgaria or Romania. Salaries have never been so low and people if they could would live abroad, they would. The Serbs are still crying the once DEFUNCT'YU is no more !
(bganon, 19 September 2014 16:35
On the surface I can see your point but you over simplify it. The big point is you cannot compare the situation in the UK right now with the situation in Yugoslavia post Tito.
Most of the Serbs supporting a split by Scotland is simply wanting "payback" for Britain.
Also you cannot correlate the desires to keep UK together as being in conflict of seeing Kosovo separated from Serbia. There was no present day violence in Scotland by UK, no matter how you feel about the Albanians the scourge of Milosevic is very well documented and without question internationally. Plus there is a huge difference with 45% of the people wanting to break away from Britain but still wanting a close relationship, still part of the crown, wanting to use the same currency etc,, and 90+% wanting Kosovo to separate totally with Serbia.
But it has always amazed me how even today so many Serbs just see the break of Croatia and Kosovo as simple separatist movements.
England had already started plans for a peaceful separation, whereas, Milosevic made plans for a bloody reaction to any separation.
So comparison of the two is even more confusing than not comparing the two.
well, one wonders what Zoran, sj, SPCUK, Leonidas will say now. congrats to the UK
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 10:09)
It seems to me that you glow in self-gratification by falsely including my name on the list of supporters of Scottish Independence.
Unlike yourself and other Albanians which sit on the fence on every issue I did make a prediction back on the 8th of April 2014 that Scotland will stay within the Union.
I've also said on a reply to Ian that "Back to the bueprint for independence I personally wouldn't bother with it.Staying within Nato,EU,keeping the same currency,keeping the monarchy as head of state,he's got all that why bother?"
Ian, UK
"Also one has to remember that Scotland is the most BRITISH part of the UK."
Not sure what you mean by “most British” but are you suggesting England is less that 55% British? Scotland’s largest city voted for independence – most British?
For the record I voted No. The reason is that I bottled it - it was going to get nasty. All the bullying and "fear" put forward by big business, Westminster, certain EU countries, America and others worked on me.
I stood at that ballot box for 5 minutes moving the pencil between yes and no. I felt terrible walking away after voting no. This morning I am despondent that we remain in a stagnant UK with all it is social injustice and inequality. And this was much more about change being needed than raw nationalism.
I have always believed that we can do better on our own but when you have so many external people against you it is a battle that cannot be won.
"Maybe I should have voted yes. Simple answer is that I put my personal wealth and short term certainty first – not very admirable, I know."
On the contrary, I think that process is very admirable. You taking note that you are not alone and that there are others, that your actions may have consequences that affect others and that those consequences may bring other reactions that affect you in return. I am just talking about the process you described in the booth, not about the validity of those assumptions. That thinking process is not as easy as it seems, the 90's in the Balkans are a perfect example where people were led like sheep to irresponsibly follow "admirable" ideas coming out of the Dark Ages and battles in mfcking 1389 and ruin their personal and collective wealth. There is nothing wrong with protecting personal wealth (acuired through work or hard work, I assume) in the short term. Short term is all we have after all, in the long term we'll be all dead. The YES front should have done a better job in explaining the plan for after the independence I guess, to ease people's fears.
Out of curiosity, why did you bottle it? Reading your post, one gets the impression that you saw through the fear mongering and lies of the No side. if you saw through it, why did you fall for it anyway?
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 13:29)
Actually Nikolle, it wasn’t the no side as such. It was business, banks and a certain EU countries particularly Spain who made it quite clear they would make it difficult for seemless EU membership. That, together with lack of trust in negotiation with rUK would have seen us bakrupt despite the fact that I think we would be successful long term otherwise.
Ian, Uk
If you were actually close to this you would realise that Irish decent had absolutely nothing to do with how people voted - I hope it wasn’t just a cheap sectarian slur.
Why on earth did you mention that the Scots were the most British if you didn’t mean it by reference to the article – what point are you making? I think you will know that the fervent unionism to which you refer is a dwindling legacy of sectarianism – less and less relevant as time passes. Whatever way you look at it your statement that the Scots are the most British is a little absurd, sorry.
No matter what distinction you or any politician may wish to argue, 45% voting for independence whilst being the most British people in the UK seems an incredible contradiction.
Thank you for your judgment that I am not serious about this issue – you are wrong. I voted no for the reasons I stated not because I believe in this current UK which has growing food banks, massive stores of nuclear weapons on my doorstep, get’s involved in illegal wars, has millions on children in food poverty and is controlled by a bunch of private school boys from middle England.
never suggested you predicted the outcome. You DID support Scottish independence however. You even claimed that Scottish culture and money had been usurped by the English. Outrageous! Congrats to the UK once again.
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 12:36)
Typical of you picking points out of a context and trying to build a false narrative.All I said was the bulk of North Sea oil ( 90% of it) belonged to Scotland and the rest to Uk. As per my posts of the 8th of April 2014 I did say about the referendum that "I personally wouldn't bother with it.Staying within Nato,EU,keeping the same currency,keeping the monarchy as head of state".I couldn't possibly support Salmond's referendum remit.
"Am I to understand that those that supported Croatian independence and the independence of Kosovo supported the Union between England and Scotland?
Wish I could say that its just here that I'm seeing this, but its not. "
Of course it's not just here - the situations were entirely different, and so the response to them should be different. Scotland had legitimate gripes about the lack of local governmental powers, but nothing that can't be resolved by changing the rules, which London says it is willing to do. More local control throughout the Kingdom will be good for everybody. (For Americans: think of Texas trying to make rules for Massachusetts and New York. Ye Gods and little fishes!)
Maybe more importantly, Scots and Englishmen had not been killing each other recently over self-identification, England wasn't intent on establishing a Greater England ... Maybe Croatia could have been won over initially to staying in some kind of union with Serbia, but Serbian politicians were too intent on maintaining control, and sending in the tanks really had to end any chance of a political reconciliation. Kosovo was a different story - there had been too much bloodshed over too many decades.
The life of nations is too complicated to expect simplistic, one-size-fits-all, solutions. In any case, the Scots and the English both did us all proud in the way they handled this - maybe democracy can work, after all.
Scotland always had a very good chance of staying in the UK. Emotionally, many there are tied to the idea of a separate Scottish identity but economically it just didn't make sense for their best interest.
But what I believe is very inevitable is that the UK will leave the EUSSR within the next few years. Reasons being for this is there are no economic arguments for the UK to stay, but plenty of not just economic but also political and cultural reasons to separate the UK from the EU. It's a process that cannot be reversed because the EU is way too stuck in its ways and those ways are not benefiting the ordinary European.
Western Europe is in difficult position right now. Nation-states like Spain, Italy and Belgium are being threatened to internally break apart all the while anti EU sentiment is high in the UK, France, Austria, Denmark among other places.
And all of this is happening at a time of mass Muslim immigration, so much so that Sweden is now 40% immigrant with many of these immigrants not respecting the Swedish way of life.
While the rest of the world is growing economically, Western Europe is declining and some could even say imploding. Is this who the Serbian gov't wants governing Serbia? Because that's exactly what happens if Serbia joined the EU. You cease to be a country and you become governed by foreign central planners.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
It amazes me everytime that someone uses the EUSSR term as somehow comparing the EU with the former soviet union. Especially because those very same people are ardent supporters of Putin whose goals are undeniably to rebuild the former USSR.
The last civil war to take place in the British Isles was in 1645. It took decades for the population to recover. The last civil war to take place in the former Yugoslavia ended in 1945, with the communist takeover of Tito's partisans. Britain is geographically isolated from the turmoil of European wars and politics. British democracy is firmly entrenched within a constitutional monarchy. The people of Yugoslavia were never given the opportunity to develop a mature political culture free of the poison of ethno-religious nationalism. That applies to ALL the peoples of former Yugoslavia to a lesser or greater degree. If Yugoslavia had fallen into the orbit of western European democratic institutions after the second world war, there probably never would have been the chaos and bloodshed of the 1990's.
Lesson four: intelligent debate.
(Bob, 19 September 2014 10:09)
LOL where? Salmond's independence campaign was a joke from the start and Cameron's half-assed attempt at preserving the Union actually made an irrelevant movement into something people actually considered competitive. While I'm glad the Union was preserved and sanity prevailed, it's amazing it happened in spite of the horridly stupid rationales from the "No" camp.
there are no economic arguments for the UK to stay, but plenty of not just economic but also political and cultural reasons to separate the UK from the EU. It's a process that cannot be reversed because the EU is way too stuck in its ways and those ways are not benefiting the ordinary European.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
I'm sure it must be so since perhaps Serbianna.com says so :)
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Western Europe is in difficult position right now. Nation-states like Spain, Italy and Belgium are being threatened to internally break apart
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
What's the problem with that? Instead of a single Italy having Italy A and Italy B... Nobody is going to take up arms because they are not stupid like the Serbs. Czech Rep. and Slovakia are no worse off than Czechoslovakia.
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all the while anti EU sentiment is high in the UK, France, Austria, Denmark among other places.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
It's unfortunate that your great wishes don't correspond to the reality http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/06/17/eu-referendum-record-lead/
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While the rest of the world is growing economically, Western Europe is declining and some could even say imploding.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
Who told you that? Serbianna.com again?! You present your wishes as the reality without any effort to confirm if that's the case or not. It sounds like you love living in denial when the reality does not match your wishes.
The genie of enhanced devolution for Scotland and other countries which make up the UK ( as promised by the political establishment )is out of the bottle and needs clarification as soon as possible.However I do sense a scenario of unintended consequences coming up fast.Failure by Cameron to deliver on the promises he made before the Scottish referendum will in my opinion seal his fate.
OK, so why did you not think long term in the booth? i mean, if you believe in independence passionately, surely, some short term pain is worth the long term cost?
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 14:13)
I wrote a comment to add to the debate. Many comments seem to suggest that this is a ringing endorsement for the UK. I can only add my personal opinion but I believe a significant amount of people,but by no means all, voted no for similar reasons.
It’s really not that easy to make a decision when it depends on how other people and countries act/react. I walked round the block in a circle before casting my vote – I didn’t know what to do, only that I had to vote. Maybe I should have voted yes. Simple answer is that I put my personal wealth and short term certainty first – not very admirable, I know.
Another poster pointed this out – it’s not over. Lots of promises have been made and those promises may not sit well with the English electorate. This is some mess we are in but I guess the structural problems in the UK had to arise sooner or later.
Ha, our Leonidas' Nostradamus doom predictions are blocked right at the start. Now the EU will survive, apparently. But maybe not, this winter they say is going to be particularly snowy, so EU will surely fall, and chaos and mayhem, right Leonidas? :)
(Reader, 19 September 2014 14:31)
This was my prediction on the Scottish Independence.Where is yours?
Of course pro-Union parties are going to campaign in favour of keeing the Union together; however they aren't saying that Scottish independence would be "illegal" as you have suggested/ implied. Also, internal factions within the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish Liberal Democrats are campaigning in favour of Scottish Independence.
(Ian, UK, 9 April 2014 00:32)
BTW You'll be pleasantly surprised to hear that I am not of the opinion that Scotts will opt for independence.There is a lot of fear-mongering and threats(from business and political elites) on the future of the Scottish population and I think in the end they will opt for the easy option to continue with the Union.
(Leonidas, 9 April 2014 12:23)
The result was not as close as predicted, but it was still too close for the NO camp, they should have got 60-70% against not 55 and they had to really mobilise their supporters at the last minuet to defeat the Yes camp as they would likely have won. Unsuccessful this time, but Scotland could be here again in less than 20 years if the UK government backtracks on more autonomy for Scotland. Yes did better than expected and came way closer than anyone would have expected years ago or even a few months ago.
Many commentors here talk about how the break-ups of the UK (potential) and Yugoslavia (actual) are different, and that's true.
To see those differences in a better light we have to look at why such unions were created in the first place.
The union between Scotland and England (Wales and Ireland were already in the union before then)was formed without the consent of those nations' peoples and for the purpose of creating an empire that largely served a small elite in both England and Scotland.
The creation of Yugoslavia in 1919, however, had a greater, though not universal, degree of consent among the peoples and the overall motive was to defend them all against foreign empires under which they had lived for centuries.
I would call that a massive difference and it's why I was against the break-up of Yugoslavia but see no problem with the same happening in a peaceful, civilised way in the UK.
Nikolle,
You’re some chap for putting words into people’s mouths.
I’m not decrying. I’m making the point it wasn’t a vote for the one big happy family – there are still massive problems with the structure of the UK. I had a vote and I used it, rightly or wrongly. No complaint from me in that respect.
“if you passionately believed in independence, you would have voted yes. ultimately i can only speculate that you didn't really think independence was a good idea”
Don’t speculate, read what I wrote.
My thought process- We could have a positive, prosperous, multi cultural, peaceful small country which is tolerant and more socially just. Then just by way of example:
1. rUK, You can't use the pound because we won't let you. Scare
2.Spain, you'll have to join the queue to join the EU because we won't let you. Self interest
3. Italy, the EU will fall apart.
4. France, the EU will fall apart
5. rUK, we'll make negotiation really hard. Scare
6. America, we need a strong UK, world politics
All of the above had nothing to do with our wee country and my thought process is that so many are against us we will be bankrupt in the short term. I'm honest enough to say I put my personal wealth and certainty first.
Now I'm going out for a pint in an extremely flat and deflated Glasgow. Have a good weekend.
I believe it was probably a wise decision for the Scots to make at the moment. Independence is a very costly and obtuse procedure to go through on a realistic level, one they do not need to go through. The wars on the British Isles are truly a thing of the past. Idealistically, I like the idea of an independent Scotland, but if most people don't want it, then this is their choice.
I do have to say, though, 55% no and 45% yes? That is not a big margin at all. Almost 50/50. It shows that nearly half of Scots are not happy with Labour at all and voted for independence. Labour REALLY needs to change a lot if they really want to keep the UK together and not just by a small margin of people in the component states. Cameron shouldn't be talking about his "heart being broken" if Scotland chose to break away from the UK, rather take an active interest in those 45% that wanted to break away from London and his rule.
what did I take out of context there?
(Nikolle, 19 September 2014 17:27)
The context is the whole exchange that I had with Ian.I was replying to Ian's comment in which he claimed that Scotland was heavily subsidised by the rest of the UK and in which I replied that According the UK's Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR)the UK has benefited to the tune of £300 billion since oil production started in North Sea.Imagine what a small country like Scotland could've done with these sums of money in terms of development. As to the rest of my comment about land and culture read the following link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
However , my comment doesn't imply neither explicit nor implicit support for Scottish independence on its present remit.The axis of evil -EU,Nato and monarchy were still central in Salmond's independence.
(Ari Gold, 19 September 2014 18:45)
It amazes me everytime that someone uses the EUSSR term as somehow comparing the EU with the former soviet union. Especially because those very same people are ardent supporters of Putin whose goals are undeniably to rebuild the former USSR.
(amazing, 21 September 2014 03:19)
Not really. The EU is more resembling of USSR today than Russia is. Believe it or not, Russia existed before the 45 years that the Soviet Union existed. It is a civilization that has existed for hundreds of years and in fact it was the Russian state that had to be defeated in order for the USSR to come to power.
Ironically, Crimea was given to Ukraine from who? The Soviet Union. If anything, Russia rewrote this historical blunder after the overthrow of the democratically elected gov't in Kiev.
On this topic i feel the need to say my bit about some things that may be reported internationally about events in Glasgow tonight. I've seen headlines of rival faction of pro union and yes activists tonight.
The truth was that 200 "loyalists" a small part of the 55% no voters and in no way representative, were attacking anyone with visible signs of being Scottish. This is a nasty fringe in our society, don't mistake that for genuine political differences in the vast majority in the no or yes side. "loyalists" are the people who live in the history of the troubles in Northern Ireland. Here they are in all their "glory" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZkTCwls5PE#t=18
I also ask you to consider the morals of your regular contributor, Ian UK, on a point I took issue with. Those 200 people were part of his “most British” and the songs they are singing is “why don’t you go home” which is a reference to the potato famine in Ireland. Which ties in with his “plastic Scots of Irish decent” comment.
Ian, what do you have to say? Your “most British” Scots really done a job on the socialists in George Square didn’t they? An organised and co-ordinated assault on peaceful people – out of the blue.
I have a message for you. I hope you listen.
I posted in all honesty about my opinion and my feelings. It is an emotional and difficult time for me and all of us in my country. I was happy to discuss and give my side. However, I cannot help but be insulted by the patronising way you pointed out to me the importance of the vote in my country about our future. And I cannot also ignore how you tried twist what I said – in fact you went further. You said that I said things that I did not say.
I don’t know where you come from or anything about you but you really need to look in a mirror and think why you are that way and what you will do to change.
Here’s to honesty and debate and mutual respect. You should get some.
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