Investigator "finds no evidence" in organ trafficking probe
EU mission in Kosovo, EULEX, Prosecutor Clint Williamson says his team has not yet found enough evidence to raise an indictment for organ trafficking in Kosovo.
You wrote inaccurate information about illegal organ harvesting and attempted to portray it as fact. I simply responded to correct your misinformation. Nothing disingenuous about that.
My countrymen/women are polite and honest, to a fault, at times. I have no motives, unlike you, to come here and disparage anyone. Furthermore, I do not try to minimize the horrors of stealing human organs, as you do in order to support your opinions, by distorting facts.
You have much to learn about positive human interaction, Mr. Danilo Jurisich.
Staff, 29 July 2014 20:48)
It is nice to see you back. We have had to rely on your brother sj to provide us all the predictions based on all the confidential sources of info that the rest of us do not know about. I stillear remember the one where you based on meetings you had attended could guarantee that 5 EU countries would rescend their recognitions in the next 3 months or something like that about 2 years ago.
(a New Day, 31 July 2014 14:02)
Haha, nice memory... Indeed, our dear friend Staff said http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=67454#k214821, I quote:
"Yes ! Things will be sorted out and Kosovo will have to go back to the negotiation table. Also, I know from sources inside the top EU that they know that 5 countries will withdraw their recognitions right away and another 15 in a month or two. Thats a fact, wait and see.
(Staff, 29 May 2010 17:31)"
"Thats a fact" part, in particular, is really entertaining :)
Ok, then, mr. Geneva resident. Basically, you're being disingenuous, and that's fine. Certainly not something new on these boards.
We're talking about the organ-snatching stories from kidnapped Serbians for which there is no real evidence and now you're saying you're just talking about the illegal organs trade in general.
I have only expressed, in general, my opinion of the horrors of international illegal organ harvesting.
The substantial profits made, lack of availability and the desperation and vulnerability of poor and disadvantaged donors are all documented.
Unlike you, I have shared factual information. I spread no rumors nor offered opinions on other topics.
I do not know what you mean by weirdo name-dropping.
I remember reading 500e on a media report. I'll have a look at the official reports.
even if the numbers are higher than the 500e I read, the whole thing seems pretty improbable - a farmhand cutting out organs on a dirt road in a war zone and then transporting them down the worst roads in Europe and flying them in closely monitored airspace during a war just in time for surgery.
Unlike you, I haven't made up my mind and, as soon as some evidence for these stories comes up, It'll inform my opinion. Until then, as with everything, skepticism is healthy. Otherwise, we're just spreading rumors.
Like I already said, the known facts are bad enough - that 1000s of people are missing from the war, their fates unknown.
btw, what's with all the weirdo name-dropping? Is that supposed to be some kind of intimidation attempt?
Mr. Danilo Jurisich-The Kosovo Medicus Clinic Indictment and court proceedings are published. Known facts are documented through interviews of donors and recipients. I suggest you read them.
EUR 500 at the Kosovo Medicus Clinic for a kidney, you say?
The organ donors at the Medicus Clinic were falsely promised to receive EUR 10,000-20,000. It is verified that one donor, an exception, received EUR 8,100 for her kidney; many donors received nothing.
There was no fairly steady stream of donors. These willing donors that you speak of were and are few in number and the poor and most vulnerable in our society desperate for money.
False statements, indeed, diminish the horrors of illegal organ harvesting and this is a disservice to all.
Well, what else does anyone with a sane mind expect when such a court should be formed in Kosovo, under Kosovo laws, and those responsible for the alleged crimes from the past became politicians that decide about the court today?
(uestioner, 1 August 2014 14:54)
If what you say had any veracity then it would make sense but since Kosovo passed a resolution for the EU to establish a court outside of Kosovo using international judges and prosecutors using Kosovo laws, then it sounds more like typical mindless Serb gum flapping.
"We are in a legal situation without precedent, because the team has the power to indict, but we do not have a court," he said, expressing disappointment that the formation of such a court was delayed.
Well, what else does anyone with a sane mind expect when such a court should be formed in Kosovo, under Kosovo laws, and those responsible for the alleged crimes from the past became politicians that decide about the court today?
Mr. Danilo Jurisich - On average 1,200 people in Switzerland are waiting for an organ around 100 die every year while waiting.
The illegal taking of human organs is very profitable. The profit on the black market for organs is estimated in billions USD and second only to weapons trafficking. A heart can fetch 1 million euros.
In Switzerland the waiting time for a kidney is 2.5 to 3 years and this is without requiring a relationship between donor and recipient as is the law in several European countries. Only 13 donors per million inhabitants in Switzerland. Maybe your mates at La Muse can tell you about this.
Organ prices on global criminal markets are based on availability the basic economic concept of supply and demand. Prices paid to the seller or the buyer varies greatly by country.
The average paid by a kidney buyer, in USD, is about $150,000 and seller $5,000. For instance,in Yemen, the broker averages $60,000. In Israel, seller averages $10,000 buyer up to $135,000. Very profitable.
In Kenya the seller gets $650. If not stolen, the poor donor is often taken advantage of and not even paid.
There is no steady stream of donors as you state. The WHO reported there is an international shortage of organs and this has led to increased human trafficking, profiteering and cost. Sadly, children are also victims.
Your attempts to diminish this horror is very disturbing.
"Can you honestly say that you do not believe that any organ harvesting took place? "
And why do you "honestly believe" that such an unbelievable thing, for which there is no concrete evidence, did take place?
It makes no business sense.
A blackmarket organ can be purchased from a willing donor for 500 euros + hospital care. Let's say 2000euros cost.
When there is a fairly steady stream of willing donors, why take the one harvested in an inaccessible mountain village, harvested on a dirt road by a farm hand, then driven for hours down the worst roads in europe, then flow through some of the most closely monitored airspace during a time of war.
Why take the more expensive (taking into account flying costs), and worse quality (removed by a farmhand in unhygienic conditions), when you can have one taken from a willing donor in a hospital.
Makes no sense.
Balkans folks of all variations constantly do themselves disservice by exaggerating. 1000s of people are missing (Serbs and Albanians) from the war, their fates unknown. That's a bad enough story. No need to make a balkan horror story out of it - A monster in the bushes took my son's organs AND got rich from it!
Staff, 29 July 2014 20:48)
It is nice to see you back. We have had to rely on your brother sj to provide us all the predictions based on all the confidential sources of info that the rest of us do not know about. I stillear remember the one where you based on meetings you had attended could guarantee that 5 EU countries would rescend their recognitions in the next 3 months or something like that about 2 years ago.
Organ harvesting case is the FIG LEAVE of the monstruos crimes done by the Serbian regime in the war over Kosovo.Despite happened or not it could not be more monstruos than KILLING INERME CHILDS AND WOMAN JUST LIKE ELDER PEOPLE.Not just one,not a "handfull" but hundreds.Cinism that Serbian society express by focusing on this TALE express the cold blood with wich those crimes were done.I wish you will find the cold blood to realise you will not step foot in Kosovo anymore.It will be your GRAVE!
finger pointing doesn't get anywhere. Both sides have done bad things, and that is people like you, Peggy, forget.
(Willi Pfaff, 30 July 2014 17:34)
=================================
Wow, you want to forget now.
Tell that to your brethren who whenever we want to discuss our victims jump up and down and demand that we talk about your victims.
Albanian, Bosnian and Croatian victims have been talked to death by every western media since the war started. It's time we concentrated on Serbian victims now, especailly when this report is only about Serbian victims.
I have NEVER once heard you instruct your Albanian brothers to let it go and start reconciling. Instead you have always joined them in counting how many and condemnations.
So do us all a favour and take yourself out of this discussion if you want to stop talking about it.
"Can you honestly say that you do not believe that any organ harvesting took place? "
Yes I can honestly say, given the information that I have at the moment, i do not believe it happened. part of the reason is the logistics I told you about. Organ removal is no easy thing, it requires expert surgeons, not militia, to perform it. now unless those KLA people were well trained in that discipline, I find it hard to believe they had it in them to carry it out. not out of their humanity, but out of their ignorance on the thing. organs, once removed, would also have to be handled with care and would have to be a perfect match for those that want them. so it requires a very professional operation, one where records would have to be kept, tests would have to be carried out and then a buyer found. i don't know dude, for me, something of this nature is pretty hard to hide. the report here has not said it happened, it has said there is indication. not that i want to dismiss it, but given the organisation needed to do this, it all sounds a bit too far fetched for me. however, should there be evidence that something like this took place, i guarantee you that i myself will donate money to make sure those responsible end up behind bars.
I do not know what you want to say, but for me it goes without saying, that no matter who is proven guilty of crimes against humanity, might he / she be German, Russian, Serb or Kosovo-Albanien, has to go to jail. In this case we have allegations, and the people in question will have to go to court, and if proven guilty jail. It is simple as that. Any democracy in the world works this way.
What is lacking in this discussion is a 'balance' of what really happened. Between 10,000 and 13,000 Kosovo-Albaniens were killed by serb Forces before and during the war. Thousends of women were raped, etc ...
Williams and Marty look into the fate of 470 obvious victims of UCK atrocities, 370 of those were serbs. They think, but have no proof yet, that less than 10 of those might have been victims of organ theft. If it really happened, these people will have to go to jail, and somebody should throw away the key.
What I miss in this discussion is that nobody looks at the Kosovo-Albaniens who were killed by serbs, and who's numbers were at least 40 times higher. There is also enough evidence that the brutality of serb forces most certainly was as bad or worse as what the UCK did. Both sides have done bad things, which are inexcusable. That is what it comes down to, and it is time to finally start a meaningful reconciliation process. The finger pointing doesn't get anywhere. Both sides have done bad things, and that is people like you, Peggy, forget.
even I do not 100% agree with what you say, I think Serbia needs more people like you. Reconciliation should be on the agenda right now, and not the usless game of blaming each other.
(Willi Pfaff, 30 July 2014 13:45)
========================
Why weren't you saying that when Serbs were sent off to Hague and accused of every crime?
Now that Albanians are being accused you are running scared and want it to stop for sake of getting along. Funny that.
I read the report in its entirety. What it said was there is solid information, the word evidence never figured.
(Nikolle, 30 July 2014 10:07)
Yes, but solid information is pretty damning when coming from the mouth of Westerners. Many Albanian supporters laughed at the idea of organ trafficking before, but now they can no longer do this. The table is turning.
Little roberto from frisco made this promise... "about these allegations -- i don't believe it and i am sure that it is a cheap and disgusting stunt by the blgd regime and co. to slow down our recognitions... BUT -- if we find that any of these allegations hold water, i personally promise to broadcast them, far and wide. and that i mean."
I see that the Canadian Danilo, Doot, Danilo Jurisich, Danny Danberry, Danilo Vancouver etc, etc. is also silent. What he said 'didn't pass the sniff test' smells rancid, to me.
And Willi, who recently called the Serbs, "The joke of the Balkans" is a hypocrite who speaks out of both sides of his mouth.
coninuation on my last post:
Reconciliation however is made difficult by outside sources being hell bent on shifting all the blame one way, one example of this is the unprecedented destruction of evidence in the ICTY and acquittal of say for example, Naser oric (unrelated to Kosovo). This western policy is very counter productive (all though one does sometimes believe it might be intended) because amongst Serbs international institutions loose credibility and for the other sides of the conflict it creates what I believe to be a false belief of innocence. This article and the way a lot of people have reacted to it is a perfect example of that. "Our crimes doesn't matter because you commited crimes as well" is a logic that has been used here several times and it's just not a sustainable environment for reconciliation. I don't advocate making exceptions just to please people but you must agree that international law have been applied on a rather ad hoc nad one-sided basis.
As for where the bloodshed started, your view is an over simplified one and it's rather naive to think history is that un-complicated. In fact you don't have to do very much reading at all to see the issue is way more complex than you describe it.
Nikolle: It's this comment, the last bit specifically that I find strange:
"This now, is investigation number 3 who have been unable to show any proof that organ harvesting took place. not one. you see, i tend to think different, if one doesn't find something, well it could be down to poor prosecutors. 2, may well be bad luck. 3, well, at this point i start to think there's nothing in it"
Williams confirms findings in line with the Marty report, that does not add up to three investigations that has found nothing.
and also this: "Williamson is saying the number is maybe 10 max."
I'm not sure why you added the maybe bit to what he said, this is what the B92 article quotes:
"Williamson added that "a handful" cases of organ trafficking had been determined. "
Really? Nothing in it? Can you honestly say that you do not believe that any organ harvesting took place? I'm not a doctor or surgeon but removing organs without damaging them but with no regard for the orgon "donor" doesn't seem comparable to actual medicine and surgery. I could be wrong butyou seem to make a point of the state of albanian hospitals at the time being unqualified for advanced surgery. Hospitals treat people however, organ harvesting is really not the same thing is it?
i take it you did not read the report. the report itself says that there is compelling indication, not evidence, that this occurred. now, you can define compelling indication however you like (you seem to take it as it means the allegations are true) but there is a difference between that and saying it definitely happened. why do i have a hard time believing this? because logistically its hard to do anything of the like without trained professionals about. the idea that armed rebels were well trained to perform such a procedure, not even in pristine conditions, but in Albania of all places and in 1999 (did you ever go to Albania in the 90's? visiting a hospital was a health risk) is truly fanciful. the idea that you can honestly hide a crime of this grotesque nature, is again hard for me to follow. should there be any sort of evidence that something of this magnitude took place, well, i will be the first to hang my head in shame and will donate to make sure those responsible face justice.
even I do not 100% agree with what you say, I think Serbia needs more people like you. Reconciliation should be on the agenda right now, and not the usless game of blaming each other.
That slimey Yank liar Williamson should have NEVER been taken into the EU task force, because OF COURSE he is lying and minimising the extent of horrendous attrocities that went on under the protection, if not direct orders, of the despicable monsters from his country: William Jefferson Clinton, Marie Jana Korbel who goes under the alias of Madeleine Albright, and military thug Wesley Kanne who goes under the fake name of Wesley Clark.
even I do not 100% agree with what you say, I think Serbia needs more people like you. Reconciliation should be on the agenda right now, and not the usless game of blaming each other.
Willi Pfaff: Do you not think that the reason us Serbs don't mention what the serbs did during the war here is because that isn't the topic? But ok, I'll humor you by saying that in no way do I as a Serb deny what happened. I hope all perpetrators get caught and that justice will be done. From my diskussion with fellow Serbs I feel that most of us want to move on but not by forgetting the past. The Serbian government has admitted, and apologised for atrocities and our path must be the same as one the Germans took which is to acknowledge our mistakes and help make things better. I personally don't feel a collective guilt about what others have done in the name of Serbia but I do feel a resposibilty to take part in reconciliation, e.g. by acknowledging the past instead of trying to deny it.
How many times have I told you that the West will wipe their feet on you as soon as they no longer need you ! You still believe they cannot betray you this way ? Then tell them what way would you like to be betrayed. Because in the end they betray everybody. Treason is the western way of existence so they will only tell you NOTHING PERSONAL IT’S JUST BUSINESS. Maybe because today they need more Serbia. Many people on this globe are disappointed by the West and you are just one of them. Confess and be welcome to the Russian Club !
@(j, 30 July 2014 02:23)
Finally a voice of reason amongst all the thoughtless screaming of victory and defeat.
It goes without saying that if enough evidence is found that any UCK members who got involved in crimes against humanity will be put on trial and sentenced if his guild is proven in court, no matter which position he has in the Kosovo society.
A lot of comments here reflect a rather one-sided view, and whatever Serbia did during the wars is either neglected, or the verdicts are labeled as unjustified.
Fact is, that lots of Serb politicians and citizens were sentenced to have committed war crimes, crimes against humanity, etc.. Fact is that the people in power in Serbia now were strong supports and heavily involved in the Milosevic killing regime which started the bloodshed all over the Balkans. It also needs to be seen that serb paramilitaries and regular troops started all this in Kosovo, and whatever we are talking about here happened at the end of the war or after the war was over. Revenge to a certain point, which in my eyes is not excusable as well.
let’s face it, Serbia’s as well as Kosovo’s political leaders leave a lot to be desired, are basically corrupt and unable to lead their countries to a better future.
Both lie to their people, lack integrity, and would never be in power in any functioning democracy.
What’s needed is new thinking, new ideas, new political leaders, but they are nowhere in sight.
"I know since I work internationally that Kosovo will not be independent at all."
trying to decipher the point behind this. are you showing off for working internationally or telling us that you have close contacts? as for the rest of your post, sunshine, however bad you think Albanians are, we have a long way to go, to match or even get close to the war crimes members of the heavenly people are spending time in prison for.
Nikolle: Please read the article if you want to have a discussion, and not just the bits that you like while ignoring the rest. Saying there is "0 evidence" at this point is preposterous.
As for people trying to excuse the crimes by saying the numbers are a lot lower than previously reported, these are the same people that until very recently said it didn't happen at all. To these people I say stop preaching about morals and guilt when you obviously have a very skewed view on the topic.
It’s a huge victory for the Serbian people no matter what some internet warriors tell.
Staff, 29 July 2014 20:48
Staff, be a human being for at least once. This is not a victory for anyone. None of this is. This along with the bodies of Albanians being unearthed from mass graves in Serbia is a shame for all humanity, but especially for us Serbs and Albanians. We did this to each other. We killed each other. We the simple common folks killed each other. Those in position of power back then are still prime ministers and presidents.Not only that but people, you included, seem to be totally OK with it, because now after people have died you can call it "A VICTORY". What the hell did you win when thousands of people are dead? Seeing the murder of defenseless victims as victory is total maddness. Whoever can't see this, is not a normal human being. Your attitude is precisely why crimes like these happen. It is mind boggling to me how a person can view the bodies of Albanian kids being found in mass graves in Serbia as a loss for Serbia, and crimes committed against Serbs being viewed as a victory for Serbs. A normal person cannot see a crime and call it a victory. This is not a game. These were people who had a life, who had parents, kids, sisters, brothers, wives, husbands, who had hopes, goals, and the desire to live a normal life. I take it you yourself would not like to be in the situation where a duchebag in the internet calls your death "A Victory" for the Serbs.
The old saying goes: "You tell a lie and by the time it circles around the city, you tend to believe your own lies". End of story.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:42)
Which explains why you think what you write is "the truth".
There is plenty of evidence in Rudnice. The mass grave filled with the bodies of Albanians.
(Mark, 29 July 2014 21:00)
=========================
You guys and your beloved US can worry about them. We'll worry about our own because there is no way we will ever get any help in bringing your criminals to account. You want us to help you but you will do all it takes to put roadblock in our way.
So in conclusion PO.
I wonder what happened to the rest of victims (over 500 serbs) as you guys were claiming!? The old saying goes: "You tell a lie and by the time it circles around the city, you tend to believe your own lies". End of story.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:42)
==============================
You guys a more than familiar with that.
Just because evidence against partirular perpertrators is not there yet or maybe not ever because top people are getting in the way and even destroyed it, there is evidence that this happened.
If EU wasn't in charge of this maybe there would be even more evidence.
I wonder if they will call Carla to the stand.
To those Albanian supporters defending criminals out there, this is how the news is now being reported in the US press. So, regardless of your views, people are going to think differently about the KLA from this point forward.
See this link. http://www.valleymorningstar.com/news/world/article_c88fcf99-1af1-5a18-acef-e9cf6ac861c4.html
If I was an Albanian today with this information cabled all over the world, (In Brussels Kosovos former supporters are furius on KLA), I would sink my head down in shame and embarrassment.
It’s a huge victory for the Serbian people no matter what some internet warriors tell.
This has been known by some people all the way and eventually after several years of hard work done by some of the worlds very best investigators, it’s a total disgrace for the KLA, for the Albanian people showing that the KLA “fighting for liberty” was only a fantasy and especially shows what cowards they were and are. Not glorious at all.
Let them have their phony marches in cheap, ugly clothing to make their people think they were heroes. Talk about hypocrites and cowards.
To Serbs and Serbians; raise your head because this is excellent!
I know since I work internationally that Kosovo will not be independent at all.
A few more recognitions may come and then forever in limbo. Of course, I am sorry to say that as Serbs you may not be able to go everywhere in your province, but that is vice versa and nothing has changed.
There will not be any visa for the Albanians in Kosovo either, (100% sure), but that’s another topic.
I assume you don't understand English. Williamson said that; those that exaggerated numbers of organ trafficking were just that. You should play that cd again and listen carefully. You have no case, and never was.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:59)
I think actually it is you "the truth" who needs to read all the reports coming out of the West. The fact is, and this is why Williamson is holding up his 10 fingers, is to show that the number of people whose organs were most likely extracted is less than 10. Now, although to a criminal-minded individual this may seem funny, as Williamson himself noted, even one person having her or his organs extracted for trade is horror. The biggest issue, as he noted, is the lack of more strong evidence to make an indictment. However, he and others have noted, as reported in Western media, that there is no doubt about the truth related to these charges. What you should hope for is that the perpetrators are brought to justice. The only mistake here was that the headline of this story stinks.
you see, i tend to think different, if one doesn't find something, well it could be down to poor prosecutors. 2, may well be bad luck. 3, well, at this point i start to think there's nothing in it
(Nikolle, 29 July 2014 16:07)
Or it could be 4, evidence tampering and witness intimidation, originally claimed by Marty and confirmed by Williamson in his report, takes place on an institutional scale in Kosovo, hampering such investigations to the point that any indictments of this sort will not hold.
No wonder so many Albanians read Serbian news. It's the most favorable to their beliefs. The rest of the world isn't so gentle.
"In Kosovo, Signs of Organ Harvesting During War"
http://www.newsweek.com/kosovo-signs-organ-harvesting-during-war-261896
"Inquiry finds 'indications' of organ harvesting in Kosovo conflict"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/29/us-eu-kosovo-investigation-idUSKBN0FY1FK20140729
"Prosecutor cites ‘compelling’ signs of Kosovo organ-harvesting atrocities in 1990s"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/prosecutor-cites-compelling-signs-of-kosovo-organ-harvesting-atrocities-in-1990s/article19819257/
"Kosovo prosecutor suspects some killed for organs
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/nation_world/20140729_ap_d8d77e5a58884e9490f51754eb07dcdf.html
"Prosecutor suspects some Kosovo war captives were killed for organs"
http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/prosecutor-suspects-some-kosovo-war-captives-were-killed-for-organs-1.295747
"'Compelling evidence' for Kosovo Liberation Army crimes"
http://www.dw.de/compelling-evidence-for-kosovo-liberation-army-crimes/a-17820407
"KLA guerrillas harvested murdered Serbs’ organs, say EU investigators"
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/enlargement/kla-guerrillas-harvested-murdered-serbs-organs-say-eu-investigators-303776
"Kosovo Prosecutor Suspects Some Killed for Organs"
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/kosovo-prosecutor-suspects-killed-organs-24753291
It is fairly obvious that most Albanians and their supporters do not read beyond headlines. This report, coming from the protectors of the KLA, is pretty damning if you ask me. I wasn't expecting it. As for organ harvesting, even some kind of admission that it did occur is a surprise to me. Yes, it happened but after 15 years of destroying evidence, killing witnesses and making sure others keep quiet (which is typical of "Kosova"**), there was enough left to demonstrate it happened.
The B92 headline is deceiving if you ask me. Here are some others:
Top Kosovo ex-fighters face organ trafficking, war crimes indictment -> https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/24579874/top-kosovo-ex-fighters-face-organ-trafficking-war-crimes-indictment
Ex-Kosovo paramilitaries face war crimes indictment -> http://euobserver.com/foreign/125140
'Compelling evidence' for Kosovo Liberation Army crimes -> http://www.dw.de/compelling-evidence-for-kosovo-liberation-army-crimes/a-17820407
I assume you don't understand English. Williamson said that; those that exaggerated numbers of organ trafficking were just that. You should play that cd again and listen carefully. You have no case, and never was.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:59)
I understand it far better than you, who also, it seems, can't read English. Williamson agrees with Marty. Start on page 3 of the document. If you have trouble making out some words, ask an adult, preferably a non-Albanian, for help.
what evidence exists? written testimonials? actual pictures? though now, i am quite confused as to who to follow, Del Ponte has alleged up to 300 were savagely murdered for their organs. Williamson is saying the number is maybe 10 max. i stand by what i wrote before, there is absolutely zero evidence that anything of this nature occurred. are you seriously telling me, that a grotesque crime such as this took place, in Albania of all places, where people had their organs extracted and managed to bury all leads?
Like I've predicted, the EU will not convict the KLA heads of anything. They financed the Albanian activities that were going on, do you think they are so stupid as to incriminate themselves? As soon as Serbia let this thing leave the UN and be taken over by the EU, it threw away any chance at justice.
When Kosova declared independence there wasn't a single day that the Serb prosecutor wasn't coming out with a new story and a new testimony, what happen to all that?
(Presheva, 29 July 2014 15:15)
It's documented here [link]
(Preševo, 29 July 2014 16:18)
I assume you don't understand English. Williamson said that; those that exaggerated numbers of organ trafficking were just that. You should play that cd again and listen carefully. You have no case, and never was.
EU prosecutor: "compelling indications" that up to 10 killed in organ harvesting in Kosovo War
[link]
I hope the German government expresses their condemnation. We have our own history with Aribert Heim our Dr. Death.
Attempts to diminish this deliberate cruelty in Kosovo will not minimize nor erase what the barbaric perpetrators did to these victims.
(Waldemar, 29 July 2014 16:04)
I wonder what happened to the rest of victims (over 500 serbs) as you guys were claiming!? The old saying goes: "You tell a lie and by the time it circles around the city, you tend to believe your own lies". End of story.
Nikolle: I'm nit picking here but by definition "no evidence, doesn't mean it didn't happen" is a correct statement. Not proving something happened does not inherently disprove anything. All though I fail to see how this is related to the topic since the article clearly states evidence exist that it did, in fact, happen. The lack of evidence reffered to is related to the perpetrators, not the crimes.
When Kosova declared independence there wasn't a single day that the Serb prosecutor wasn't coming out with a new story and a new testimony, what happen to all that?
(Presheva, 29 July 2014 15:15)
It's documented here http://www.b92.net/eng/insight/pressroom.php?yyyy=2014&mm=07&nav_id=91127
A very interesting assertion. I have no evidence that you killed a person either, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. This now, is investigation number 3 who have been unable to show any proof that organ harvesting took place. not one. you see, i tend to think different, if one doesn't find something, well it could be down to poor prosecutors. 2, may well be bad luck. 3, well, at this point i start to think there's nothing in it
This is a great day for modern democracy ! Finally... Europe is realising that the Serbs will do anything to discredit others. What do you expect from a bunch of bearded peasants.
(Bam Bam, 29 July 2014 15:39)
Uh oh, looks like you had another brain fart. Did you try to think of what to write before you mashed your keyboard in an angry temper tantrum? This is the best you could come up with? On a Serbian site, which you hope to post your comment? Just when I thought you couldn't possibly get any dumber...
Really???? That all it comes down to? Less than 10?
How about try this for size: Serbia killed 15000 civilians in Kosova!!!! Most of whom are still buried in mass graves all over Serbia.
When Kosova declared independence there wasn't a single day that the Serb prosecutor wasn't coming out with a new story and a new testimony, what happen to all that?
No doubt Albanian cyber patriots are going to read the headline and proclaim the whole thing was a farce.
Hahahahahahha
What a great morning news to start off my day.
(Albanian, 29 July 2014 10:37)
Never misses a cue. But the rest of the news is extremely damaging to the image of Kosovo Pristina and its supporters tried to hard to dispel. War crimes, ethnic cleansing, torture, witness intimidation, evidence tampering, and the possibility that the tribunal will be moved to the Hague...my my, not the type of news I'd like to read if I were pro-'Kosova'. And of course the understanding that Marty wasn't making things up but that the evidence to prove what Williamson did not dismiss was simply not there - and you've got one Hell of problem for Europe's youngest democracy.
Hash and the Gang are going to have to go into overtime placating Daddy Washington into saving their bums, though I suspect a deal has already been made to spare the highest ranking KLA goons from prosecution and let second-tier officials take the fall.
Finally, Williamson didn't say organ harvesting didn't take place. He agrees with Marty's accusations. "No evidence" doesn't mean it didn't happen. It means there's no tangible proof anymore to bring anyone to court. Guess all those witnesses suddenly dying paid off.
Let's hope some amount of justice will finally be served against victims of KLA aggression.
This is a great day for modern democracy ! Finally... Europe is realising that the Serbs will do anything to discredit others. What do you expect from a bunch of bearded peasants.
But thats the end of it once and forever........
(Gollaku, 29 July 2014 14:16)
"Fifteen years down the line, we have solid information that these things happened, but no physical evidence. There are no bodies, no names of victims," Williamson told the Guardian."
You really didn't read the article, or the report, did you? No you didn't.
He said that reports that hundreds of people were exposed to forced organ extraction was "not in line" with what his team learned, but added that "the cruelty of the crime is not diminished" even if it concerned just one victim.
Serb prosecutor claimed over 500 serb victims, and he was never able to give one single name of said victims! At last this fabricated case came to en end.
"Williamson added that "a handful" cases of organ trafficking had been determined."
""The special team came to indisputable evidence against some former KLA leaders," said Williamson, adding that these individuals were at the top of the KLA."
"He stated, and repeated several times, that all of his team's discoveries were "consistent" with the report filed in late 2010 by then CoE rapporteur Dick Marty"
"What happened after the war in Kosovo was a brutal attack on Serbs who wanted to stay, they were mostly old and sick, but also against Albanians who were opposed,"
"The Danas newspaper also quoted a source who "dealt with war crimes before the Hague Tribunal" as saying that organ trafficking "undoubtedly" happened in Kosovo but that such crimes are "difficult to prove." "
etc
Could you motivate why this is amusing? People like you bring shame to their people
For years been waiting and waiting and waiting, huh huuuuuh,deep breath.Organ harvestin,Organ harvesting ,you had nothing to argue but Organ harvestin,Dick Marty,Dick Marty Carla Delponte,Carla Delponte,hahahahahaha and thats the headlines for every comentar.But thats the end of it once and forever........
Here's what was published in the Guardian today. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/senior-political-figures-kosovo-prosecution-crimes-humanity?CMP=twt_gu
For years been waiting and waiting and waiting, huh huuuuuh,deep breath.Organ harvestin,Organ harvesting ,you had nothing to argue but Organ harvestin,Dick Marty,Dick Marty Carla Delponte,Carla Delponte,hahahahahaha and thats the headlines for every comentar.But thats the end of it once and forever........
Really???? That all it comes down to? Less than 10?
How about try this for size: Serbia killed 15000 civilians in Kosova!!!! Most of whom are still buried in mass graves all over Serbia.
When Kosova declared independence there wasn't a single day that the Serb prosecutor wasn't coming out with a new story and a new testimony, what happen to all that?
He said that reports that hundreds of people were exposed to forced organ extraction was "not in line" with what his team learned, but added that "the cruelty of the crime is not diminished" even if it concerned just one victim.
Serb prosecutor claimed over 500 serb victims, and he was never able to give one single name of said victims! At last this fabricated case came to en end.
"Williamson added that "a handful" cases of organ trafficking had been determined."
""The special team came to indisputable evidence against some former KLA leaders," said Williamson, adding that these individuals were at the top of the KLA."
"He stated, and repeated several times, that all of his team's discoveries were "consistent" with the report filed in late 2010 by then CoE rapporteur Dick Marty"
"What happened after the war in Kosovo was a brutal attack on Serbs who wanted to stay, they were mostly old and sick, but also against Albanians who were opposed,"
"The Danas newspaper also quoted a source who "dealt with war crimes before the Hague Tribunal" as saying that organ trafficking "undoubtedly" happened in Kosovo but that such crimes are "difficult to prove." "
etc
Could you motivate why this is amusing? People like you bring shame to their people
No doubt Albanian cyber patriots are going to read the headline and proclaim the whole thing was a farce.
Hahahahahahha
What a great morning news to start off my day.
(Albanian, 29 July 2014 10:37)
Never misses a cue. But the rest of the news is extremely damaging to the image of Kosovo Pristina and its supporters tried to hard to dispel. War crimes, ethnic cleansing, torture, witness intimidation, evidence tampering, and the possibility that the tribunal will be moved to the Hague...my my, not the type of news I'd like to read if I were pro-'Kosova'. And of course the understanding that Marty wasn't making things up but that the evidence to prove what Williamson did not dismiss was simply not there - and you've got one Hell of problem for Europe's youngest democracy.
Hash and the Gang are going to have to go into overtime placating Daddy Washington into saving their bums, though I suspect a deal has already been made to spare the highest ranking KLA goons from prosecution and let second-tier officials take the fall.
Finally, Williamson didn't say organ harvesting didn't take place. He agrees with Marty's accusations. "No evidence" doesn't mean it didn't happen. It means there's no tangible proof anymore to bring anyone to court. Guess all those witnesses suddenly dying paid off.
Let's hope some amount of justice will finally be served against victims of KLA aggression.
A very interesting assertion. I have no evidence that you killed a person either, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. This now, is investigation number 3 who have been unable to show any proof that organ harvesting took place. not one. you see, i tend to think different, if one doesn't find something, well it could be down to poor prosecutors. 2, may well be bad luck. 3, well, at this point i start to think there's nothing in it
But thats the end of it once and forever........
(Gollaku, 29 July 2014 14:16)
"Fifteen years down the line, we have solid information that these things happened, but no physical evidence. There are no bodies, no names of victims," Williamson told the Guardian."
You really didn't read the article, or the report, did you? No you didn't.
This is a great day for modern democracy ! Finally... Europe is realising that the Serbs will do anything to discredit others. What do you expect from a bunch of bearded peasants.
This is a great day for modern democracy ! Finally... Europe is realising that the Serbs will do anything to discredit others. What do you expect from a bunch of bearded peasants.
(Bam Bam, 29 July 2014 15:39)
Uh oh, looks like you had another brain fart. Did you try to think of what to write before you mashed your keyboard in an angry temper tantrum? This is the best you could come up with? On a Serbian site, which you hope to post your comment? Just when I thought you couldn't possibly get any dumber...
Nikolle: I'm nit picking here but by definition "no evidence, doesn't mean it didn't happen" is a correct statement. Not proving something happened does not inherently disprove anything. All though I fail to see how this is related to the topic since the article clearly states evidence exist that it did, in fact, happen. The lack of evidence reffered to is related to the perpetrators, not the crimes.
"Can you honestly say that you do not believe that any organ harvesting took place? "
Yes I can honestly say, given the information that I have at the moment, i do not believe it happened. part of the reason is the logistics I told you about. Organ removal is no easy thing, it requires expert surgeons, not militia, to perform it. now unless those KLA people were well trained in that discipline, I find it hard to believe they had it in them to carry it out. not out of their humanity, but out of their ignorance on the thing. organs, once removed, would also have to be handled with care and would have to be a perfect match for those that want them. so it requires a very professional operation, one where records would have to be kept, tests would have to be carried out and then a buyer found. i don't know dude, for me, something of this nature is pretty hard to hide. the report here has not said it happened, it has said there is indication. not that i want to dismiss it, but given the organisation needed to do this, it all sounds a bit too far fetched for me. however, should there be evidence that something like this took place, i guarantee you that i myself will donate money to make sure those responsible end up behind bars.
When Kosova declared independence there wasn't a single day that the Serb prosecutor wasn't coming out with a new story and a new testimony, what happen to all that?
(Presheva, 29 July 2014 15:15)
It's documented here http://www.b92.net/eng/insight/pressroom.php?yyyy=2014&mm=07&nav_id=91127
EU prosecutor: "compelling indications" that up to 10 killed in organ harvesting in Kosovo War
[link]
I hope the German government expresses their condemnation. We have our own history with Aribert Heim our Dr. Death.
Attempts to diminish this deliberate cruelty in Kosovo will not minimize nor erase what the barbaric perpetrators did to these victims.
(Waldemar, 29 July 2014 16:04)
I wonder what happened to the rest of victims (over 500 serbs) as you guys were claiming!? The old saying goes: "You tell a lie and by the time it circles around the city, you tend to believe your own lies". End of story.
When Kosova declared independence there wasn't a single day that the Serb prosecutor wasn't coming out with a new story and a new testimony, what happen to all that?
(Presheva, 29 July 2014 15:15)
It's documented here [link]
(Preševo, 29 July 2014 16:18)
I assume you don't understand English. Williamson said that; those that exaggerated numbers of organ trafficking were just that. You should play that cd again and listen carefully. You have no case, and never was.
Here's what was published in the Guardian today. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/senior-political-figures-kosovo-prosecution-crimes-humanity?CMP=twt_gu
If I was an Albanian today with this information cabled all over the world, (In Brussels Kosovos former supporters are furius on KLA), I would sink my head down in shame and embarrassment.
It’s a huge victory for the Serbian people no matter what some internet warriors tell.
This has been known by some people all the way and eventually after several years of hard work done by some of the worlds very best investigators, it’s a total disgrace for the KLA, for the Albanian people showing that the KLA “fighting for liberty” was only a fantasy and especially shows what cowards they were and are. Not glorious at all.
Let them have their phony marches in cheap, ugly clothing to make their people think they were heroes. Talk about hypocrites and cowards.
To Serbs and Serbians; raise your head because this is excellent!
I know since I work internationally that Kosovo will not be independent at all.
A few more recognitions may come and then forever in limbo. Of course, I am sorry to say that as Serbs you may not be able to go everywhere in your province, but that is vice versa and nothing has changed.
There will not be any visa for the Albanians in Kosovo either, (100% sure), but that’s another topic.
I assume you don't understand English. Williamson said that; those that exaggerated numbers of organ trafficking were just that. You should play that cd again and listen carefully. You have no case, and never was.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:59)
I understand it far better than you, who also, it seems, can't read English. Williamson agrees with Marty. Start on page 3 of the document. If you have trouble making out some words, ask an adult, preferably a non-Albanian, for help.
No wonder so many Albanians read Serbian news. It's the most favorable to their beliefs. The rest of the world isn't so gentle.
"In Kosovo, Signs of Organ Harvesting During War"
http://www.newsweek.com/kosovo-signs-organ-harvesting-during-war-261896
"Inquiry finds 'indications' of organ harvesting in Kosovo conflict"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/29/us-eu-kosovo-investigation-idUSKBN0FY1FK20140729
"Prosecutor cites ‘compelling’ signs of Kosovo organ-harvesting atrocities in 1990s"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/prosecutor-cites-compelling-signs-of-kosovo-organ-harvesting-atrocities-in-1990s/article19819257/
"Kosovo prosecutor suspects some killed for organs
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/nation_world/20140729_ap_d8d77e5a58884e9490f51754eb07dcdf.html
"Prosecutor suspects some Kosovo war captives were killed for organs"
http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/prosecutor-suspects-some-kosovo-war-captives-were-killed-for-organs-1.295747
"'Compelling evidence' for Kosovo Liberation Army crimes"
http://www.dw.de/compelling-evidence-for-kosovo-liberation-army-crimes/a-17820407
"KLA guerrillas harvested murdered Serbs’ organs, say EU investigators"
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/enlargement/kla-guerrillas-harvested-murdered-serbs-organs-say-eu-investigators-303776
"Kosovo Prosecutor Suspects Some Killed for Organs"
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/kosovo-prosecutor-suspects-killed-organs-24753291
It’s a huge victory for the Serbian people no matter what some internet warriors tell.
Staff, 29 July 2014 20:48
Staff, be a human being for at least once. This is not a victory for anyone. None of this is. This along with the bodies of Albanians being unearthed from mass graves in Serbia is a shame for all humanity, but especially for us Serbs and Albanians. We did this to each other. We killed each other. We the simple common folks killed each other. Those in position of power back then are still prime ministers and presidents.Not only that but people, you included, seem to be totally OK with it, because now after people have died you can call it "A VICTORY". What the hell did you win when thousands of people are dead? Seeing the murder of defenseless victims as victory is total maddness. Whoever can't see this, is not a normal human being. Your attitude is precisely why crimes like these happen. It is mind boggling to me how a person can view the bodies of Albanian kids being found in mass graves in Serbia as a loss for Serbia, and crimes committed against Serbs being viewed as a victory for Serbs. A normal person cannot see a crime and call it a victory. This is not a game. These were people who had a life, who had parents, kids, sisters, brothers, wives, husbands, who had hopes, goals, and the desire to live a normal life. I take it you yourself would not like to be in the situation where a duchebag in the internet calls your death "A Victory" for the Serbs.
Organ harvesting case is the FIG LEAVE of the monstruos crimes done by the Serbian regime in the war over Kosovo.Despite happened or not it could not be more monstruos than KILLING INERME CHILDS AND WOMAN JUST LIKE ELDER PEOPLE.Not just one,not a "handfull" but hundreds.Cinism that Serbian society express by focusing on this TALE express the cold blood with wich those crimes were done.I wish you will find the cold blood to realise you will not step foot in Kosovo anymore.It will be your GRAVE!
Like I've predicted, the EU will not convict the KLA heads of anything. They financed the Albanian activities that were going on, do you think they are so stupid as to incriminate themselves? As soon as Serbia let this thing leave the UN and be taken over by the EU, it threw away any chance at justice.
It is fairly obvious that most Albanians and their supporters do not read beyond headlines. This report, coming from the protectors of the KLA, is pretty damning if you ask me. I wasn't expecting it. As for organ harvesting, even some kind of admission that it did occur is a surprise to me. Yes, it happened but after 15 years of destroying evidence, killing witnesses and making sure others keep quiet (which is typical of "Kosova"**), there was enough left to demonstrate it happened.
The B92 headline is deceiving if you ask me. Here are some others:
Top Kosovo ex-fighters face organ trafficking, war crimes indictment -> https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/24579874/top-kosovo-ex-fighters-face-organ-trafficking-war-crimes-indictment
Ex-Kosovo paramilitaries face war crimes indictment -> http://euobserver.com/foreign/125140
'Compelling evidence' for Kosovo Liberation Army crimes -> http://www.dw.de/compelling-evidence-for-kosovo-liberation-army-crimes/a-17820407
I assume you don't understand English. Williamson said that; those that exaggerated numbers of organ trafficking were just that. You should play that cd again and listen carefully. You have no case, and never was.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:59)
I think actually it is you "the truth" who needs to read all the reports coming out of the West. The fact is, and this is why Williamson is holding up his 10 fingers, is to show that the number of people whose organs were most likely extracted is less than 10. Now, although to a criminal-minded individual this may seem funny, as Williamson himself noted, even one person having her or his organs extracted for trade is horror. The biggest issue, as he noted, is the lack of more strong evidence to make an indictment. However, he and others have noted, as reported in Western media, that there is no doubt about the truth related to these charges. What you should hope for is that the perpetrators are brought to justice. The only mistake here was that the headline of this story stinks.
To those Albanian supporters defending criminals out there, this is how the news is now being reported in the US press. So, regardless of your views, people are going to think differently about the KLA from this point forward.
See this link. http://www.valleymorningstar.com/news/world/article_c88fcf99-1af1-5a18-acef-e9cf6ac861c4.html
I wonder what happened to the rest of victims (over 500 serbs) as you guys were claiming!? The old saying goes: "You tell a lie and by the time it circles around the city, you tend to believe your own lies". End of story.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:42)
==============================
You guys a more than familiar with that.
Just because evidence against partirular perpertrators is not there yet or maybe not ever because top people are getting in the way and even destroyed it, there is evidence that this happened.
If EU wasn't in charge of this maybe there would be even more evidence.
I wonder if they will call Carla to the stand.
How many times have I told you that the West will wipe their feet on you as soon as they no longer need you ! You still believe they cannot betray you this way ? Then tell them what way would you like to be betrayed. Because in the end they betray everybody. Treason is the western way of existence so they will only tell you NOTHING PERSONAL IT’S JUST BUSINESS. Maybe because today they need more Serbia. Many people on this globe are disappointed by the West and you are just one of them. Confess and be welcome to the Russian Club !
even I do not 100% agree with what you say, I think Serbia needs more people like you. Reconciliation should be on the agenda right now, and not the usless game of blaming each other.
(Willi Pfaff, 30 July 2014 13:45)
========================
Why weren't you saying that when Serbs were sent off to Hague and accused of every crime?
Now that Albanians are being accused you are running scared and want it to stop for sake of getting along. Funny that.
what evidence exists? written testimonials? actual pictures? though now, i am quite confused as to who to follow, Del Ponte has alleged up to 300 were savagely murdered for their organs. Williamson is saying the number is maybe 10 max. i stand by what i wrote before, there is absolutely zero evidence that anything of this nature occurred. are you seriously telling me, that a grotesque crime such as this took place, in Albania of all places, where people had their organs extracted and managed to bury all leads?
you see, i tend to think different, if one doesn't find something, well it could be down to poor prosecutors. 2, may well be bad luck. 3, well, at this point i start to think there's nothing in it
(Nikolle, 29 July 2014 16:07)
Or it could be 4, evidence tampering and witness intimidation, originally claimed by Marty and confirmed by Williamson in his report, takes place on an institutional scale in Kosovo, hampering such investigations to the point that any indictments of this sort will not hold.
"I know since I work internationally that Kosovo will not be independent at all."
trying to decipher the point behind this. are you showing off for working internationally or telling us that you have close contacts? as for the rest of your post, sunshine, however bad you think Albanians are, we have a long way to go, to match or even get close to the war crimes members of the heavenly people are spending time in prison for.
I do not know what you want to say, but for me it goes without saying, that no matter who is proven guilty of crimes against humanity, might he / she be German, Russian, Serb or Kosovo-Albanien, has to go to jail. In this case we have allegations, and the people in question will have to go to court, and if proven guilty jail. It is simple as that. Any democracy in the world works this way.
What is lacking in this discussion is a 'balance' of what really happened. Between 10,000 and 13,000 Kosovo-Albaniens were killed by serb Forces before and during the war. Thousends of women were raped, etc ...
Williams and Marty look into the fate of 470 obvious victims of UCK atrocities, 370 of those were serbs. They think, but have no proof yet, that less than 10 of those might have been victims of organ theft. If it really happened, these people will have to go to jail, and somebody should throw away the key.
What I miss in this discussion is that nobody looks at the Kosovo-Albaniens who were killed by serbs, and who's numbers were at least 40 times higher. There is also enough evidence that the brutality of serb forces most certainly was as bad or worse as what the UCK did. Both sides have done bad things, which are inexcusable. That is what it comes down to, and it is time to finally start a meaningful reconciliation process. The finger pointing doesn't get anywhere. Both sides have done bad things, and that is people like you, Peggy, forget.
Staff, 29 July 2014 20:48)
It is nice to see you back. We have had to rely on your brother sj to provide us all the predictions based on all the confidential sources of info that the rest of us do not know about. I stillear remember the one where you based on meetings you had attended could guarantee that 5 EU countries would rescend their recognitions in the next 3 months or something like that about 2 years ago.
"Can you honestly say that you do not believe that any organ harvesting took place? "
And why do you "honestly believe" that such an unbelievable thing, for which there is no concrete evidence, did take place?
It makes no business sense.
A blackmarket organ can be purchased from a willing donor for 500 euros + hospital care. Let's say 2000euros cost.
When there is a fairly steady stream of willing donors, why take the one harvested in an inaccessible mountain village, harvested on a dirt road by a farm hand, then driven for hours down the worst roads in europe, then flow through some of the most closely monitored airspace during a time of war.
Why take the more expensive (taking into account flying costs), and worse quality (removed by a farmhand in unhygienic conditions), when you can have one taken from a willing donor in a hospital.
Makes no sense.
Balkans folks of all variations constantly do themselves disservice by exaggerating. 1000s of people are missing (Serbs and Albanians) from the war, their fates unknown. That's a bad enough story. No need to make a balkan horror story out of it - A monster in the bushes took my son's organs AND got rich from it!
@(j, 30 July 2014 02:23)
Finally a voice of reason amongst all the thoughtless screaming of victory and defeat.
It goes without saying that if enough evidence is found that any UCK members who got involved in crimes against humanity will be put on trial and sentenced if his guild is proven in court, no matter which position he has in the Kosovo society.
A lot of comments here reflect a rather one-sided view, and whatever Serbia did during the wars is either neglected, or the verdicts are labeled as unjustified.
Fact is, that lots of Serb politicians and citizens were sentenced to have committed war crimes, crimes against humanity, etc.. Fact is that the people in power in Serbia now were strong supports and heavily involved in the Milosevic killing regime which started the bloodshed all over the Balkans. It also needs to be seen that serb paramilitaries and regular troops started all this in Kosovo, and whatever we are talking about here happened at the end of the war or after the war was over. Revenge to a certain point, which in my eyes is not excusable as well.
let’s face it, Serbia’s as well as Kosovo’s political leaders leave a lot to be desired, are basically corrupt and unable to lead their countries to a better future.
Both lie to their people, lack integrity, and would never be in power in any functioning democracy.
What’s needed is new thinking, new ideas, new political leaders, but they are nowhere in sight.
Willi Pfaff: Do you not think that the reason us Serbs don't mention what the serbs did during the war here is because that isn't the topic? But ok, I'll humor you by saying that in no way do I as a Serb deny what happened. I hope all perpetrators get caught and that justice will be done. From my diskussion with fellow Serbs I feel that most of us want to move on but not by forgetting the past. The Serbian government has admitted, and apologised for atrocities and our path must be the same as one the Germans took which is to acknowledge our mistakes and help make things better. I personally don't feel a collective guilt about what others have done in the name of Serbia but I do feel a resposibilty to take part in reconciliation, e.g. by acknowledging the past instead of trying to deny it.
Little roberto from frisco made this promise... "about these allegations -- i don't believe it and i am sure that it is a cheap and disgusting stunt by the blgd regime and co. to slow down our recognitions... BUT -- if we find that any of these allegations hold water, i personally promise to broadcast them, far and wide. and that i mean."
I see that the Canadian Danilo, Doot, Danilo Jurisich, Danny Danberry, Danilo Vancouver etc, etc. is also silent. What he said 'didn't pass the sniff test' smells rancid, to me.
And Willi, who recently called the Serbs, "The joke of the Balkans" is a hypocrite who speaks out of both sides of his mouth.
finger pointing doesn't get anywhere. Both sides have done bad things, and that is people like you, Peggy, forget.
(Willi Pfaff, 30 July 2014 17:34)
=================================
Wow, you want to forget now.
Tell that to your brethren who whenever we want to discuss our victims jump up and down and demand that we talk about your victims.
Albanian, Bosnian and Croatian victims have been talked to death by every western media since the war started. It's time we concentrated on Serbian victims now, especailly when this report is only about Serbian victims.
I have NEVER once heard you instruct your Albanian brothers to let it go and start reconciling. Instead you have always joined them in counting how many and condemnations.
So do us all a favour and take yourself out of this discussion if you want to stop talking about it.
I remember reading 500e on a media report. I'll have a look at the official reports.
even if the numbers are higher than the 500e I read, the whole thing seems pretty improbable - a farmhand cutting out organs on a dirt road in a war zone and then transporting them down the worst roads in Europe and flying them in closely monitored airspace during a war just in time for surgery.
Unlike you, I haven't made up my mind and, as soon as some evidence for these stories comes up, It'll inform my opinion. Until then, as with everything, skepticism is healthy. Otherwise, we're just spreading rumors.
Like I already said, the known facts are bad enough - that 1000s of people are missing from the war, their fates unknown.
btw, what's with all the weirdo name-dropping? Is that supposed to be some kind of intimidation attempt?
There is plenty of evidence in Rudnice. The mass grave filled with the bodies of Albanians.
(Mark, 29 July 2014 21:00)
=========================
You guys and your beloved US can worry about them. We'll worry about our own because there is no way we will ever get any help in bringing your criminals to account. You want us to help you but you will do all it takes to put roadblock in our way.
So in conclusion PO.
i take it you did not read the report. the report itself says that there is compelling indication, not evidence, that this occurred. now, you can define compelling indication however you like (you seem to take it as it means the allegations are true) but there is a difference between that and saying it definitely happened. why do i have a hard time believing this? because logistically its hard to do anything of the like without trained professionals about. the idea that armed rebels were well trained to perform such a procedure, not even in pristine conditions, but in Albania of all places and in 1999 (did you ever go to Albania in the 90's? visiting a hospital was a health risk) is truly fanciful. the idea that you can honestly hide a crime of this grotesque nature, is again hard for me to follow. should there be any sort of evidence that something of this magnitude took place, well, i will be the first to hang my head in shame and will donate to make sure those responsible face justice.
even I do not 100% agree with what you say, I think Serbia needs more people like you. Reconciliation should be on the agenda right now, and not the usless game of blaming each other.
Nikolle: It's this comment, the last bit specifically that I find strange:
"This now, is investigation number 3 who have been unable to show any proof that organ harvesting took place. not one. you see, i tend to think different, if one doesn't find something, well it could be down to poor prosecutors. 2, may well be bad luck. 3, well, at this point i start to think there's nothing in it"
Williams confirms findings in line with the Marty report, that does not add up to three investigations that has found nothing.
and also this: "Williamson is saying the number is maybe 10 max."
I'm not sure why you added the maybe bit to what he said, this is what the B92 article quotes:
"Williamson added that "a handful" cases of organ trafficking had been determined. "
Really? Nothing in it? Can you honestly say that you do not believe that any organ harvesting took place? I'm not a doctor or surgeon but removing organs without damaging them but with no regard for the orgon "donor" doesn't seem comparable to actual medicine and surgery. I could be wrong butyou seem to make a point of the state of albanian hospitals at the time being unqualified for advanced surgery. Hospitals treat people however, organ harvesting is really not the same thing is it?
I read the report in its entirety. What it said was there is solid information, the word evidence never figured.
(Nikolle, 30 July 2014 10:07)
Yes, but solid information is pretty damning when coming from the mouth of Westerners. Many Albanian supporters laughed at the idea of organ trafficking before, but now they can no longer do this. The table is turning.
Well, what else does anyone with a sane mind expect when such a court should be formed in Kosovo, under Kosovo laws, and those responsible for the alleged crimes from the past became politicians that decide about the court today?
(uestioner, 1 August 2014 14:54)
If what you say had any veracity then it would make sense but since Kosovo passed a resolution for the EU to establish a court outside of Kosovo using international judges and prosecutors using Kosovo laws, then it sounds more like typical mindless Serb gum flapping.
The old saying goes: "You tell a lie and by the time it circles around the city, you tend to believe your own lies". End of story.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:42)
Which explains why you think what you write is "the truth".
coninuation on my last post:
Reconciliation however is made difficult by outside sources being hell bent on shifting all the blame one way, one example of this is the unprecedented destruction of evidence in the ICTY and acquittal of say for example, Naser oric (unrelated to Kosovo). This western policy is very counter productive (all though one does sometimes believe it might be intended) because amongst Serbs international institutions loose credibility and for the other sides of the conflict it creates what I believe to be a false belief of innocence. This article and the way a lot of people have reacted to it is a perfect example of that. "Our crimes doesn't matter because you commited crimes as well" is a logic that has been used here several times and it's just not a sustainable environment for reconciliation. I don't advocate making exceptions just to please people but you must agree that international law have been applied on a rather ad hoc nad one-sided basis.
As for where the bloodshed started, your view is an over simplified one and it's rather naive to think history is that un-complicated. In fact you don't have to do very much reading at all to see the issue is way more complex than you describe it.
even I do not 100% agree with what you say, I think Serbia needs more people like you. Reconciliation should be on the agenda right now, and not the usless game of blaming each other.
Mr. Danilo Jurisich - On average 1,200 people in Switzerland are waiting for an organ around 100 die every year while waiting.
The illegal taking of human organs is very profitable. The profit on the black market for organs is estimated in billions USD and second only to weapons trafficking. A heart can fetch 1 million euros.
In Switzerland the waiting time for a kidney is 2.5 to 3 years and this is without requiring a relationship between donor and recipient as is the law in several European countries. Only 13 donors per million inhabitants in Switzerland. Maybe your mates at La Muse can tell you about this.
Organ prices on global criminal markets are based on availability the basic economic concept of supply and demand. Prices paid to the seller or the buyer varies greatly by country.
The average paid by a kidney buyer, in USD, is about $150,000 and seller $5,000. For instance,in Yemen, the broker averages $60,000. In Israel, seller averages $10,000 buyer up to $135,000. Very profitable.
In Kenya the seller gets $650. If not stolen, the poor donor is often taken advantage of and not even paid.
There is no steady stream of donors as you state. The WHO reported there is an international shortage of organs and this has led to increased human trafficking, profiteering and cost. Sadly, children are also victims.
Your attempts to diminish this horror is very disturbing.
Staff, 29 July 2014 20:48)
It is nice to see you back. We have had to rely on your brother sj to provide us all the predictions based on all the confidential sources of info that the rest of us do not know about. I stillear remember the one where you based on meetings you had attended could guarantee that 5 EU countries would rescend their recognitions in the next 3 months or something like that about 2 years ago.
(a New Day, 31 July 2014 14:02)
Haha, nice memory... Indeed, our dear friend Staff said http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=67454#k214821, I quote:
"Yes ! Things will be sorted out and Kosovo will have to go back to the negotiation table. Also, I know from sources inside the top EU that they know that 5 countries will withdraw their recognitions right away and another 15 in a month or two. Thats a fact, wait and see.
(Staff, 29 May 2010 17:31)"
"Thats a fact" part, in particular, is really entertaining :)
Nikolle: Please read the article if you want to have a discussion, and not just the bits that you like while ignoring the rest. Saying there is "0 evidence" at this point is preposterous.
As for people trying to excuse the crimes by saying the numbers are a lot lower than previously reported, these are the same people that until very recently said it didn't happen at all. To these people I say stop preaching about morals and guilt when you obviously have a very skewed view on the topic.
That slimey Yank liar Williamson should have NEVER been taken into the EU task force, because OF COURSE he is lying and minimising the extent of horrendous attrocities that went on under the protection, if not direct orders, of the despicable monsters from his country: William Jefferson Clinton, Marie Jana Korbel who goes under the alias of Madeleine Albright, and military thug Wesley Kanne who goes under the fake name of Wesley Clark.
"We are in a legal situation without precedent, because the team has the power to indict, but we do not have a court," he said, expressing disappointment that the formation of such a court was delayed.
Well, what else does anyone with a sane mind expect when such a court should be formed in Kosovo, under Kosovo laws, and those responsible for the alleged crimes from the past became politicians that decide about the court today?
Mr. Danilo Jurisich-The Kosovo Medicus Clinic Indictment and court proceedings are published. Known facts are documented through interviews of donors and recipients. I suggest you read them.
EUR 500 at the Kosovo Medicus Clinic for a kidney, you say?
The organ donors at the Medicus Clinic were falsely promised to receive EUR 10,000-20,000. It is verified that one donor, an exception, received EUR 8,100 for her kidney; many donors received nothing.
There was no fairly steady stream of donors. These willing donors that you speak of were and are few in number and the poor and most vulnerable in our society desperate for money.
False statements, indeed, diminish the horrors of illegal organ harvesting and this is a disservice to all.
Ok, then, mr. Geneva resident. Basically, you're being disingenuous, and that's fine. Certainly not something new on these boards.
We're talking about the organ-snatching stories from kidnapped Serbians for which there is no real evidence and now you're saying you're just talking about the illegal organs trade in general.
I have only expressed, in general, my opinion of the horrors of international illegal organ harvesting.
The substantial profits made, lack of availability and the desperation and vulnerability of poor and disadvantaged donors are all documented.
Unlike you, I have shared factual information. I spread no rumors nor offered opinions on other topics.
I do not know what you mean by weirdo name-dropping.
You wrote inaccurate information about illegal organ harvesting and attempted to portray it as fact. I simply responded to correct your misinformation. Nothing disingenuous about that.
My countrymen/women are polite and honest, to a fault, at times. I have no motives, unlike you, to come here and disparage anyone. Furthermore, I do not try to minimize the horrors of stealing human organs, as you do in order to support your opinions, by distorting facts.
You have much to learn about positive human interaction, Mr. Danilo Jurisich.
Really???? That all it comes down to? Less than 10?
How about try this for size: Serbia killed 15000 civilians in Kosova!!!! Most of whom are still buried in mass graves all over Serbia.
When Kosova declared independence there wasn't a single day that the Serb prosecutor wasn't coming out with a new story and a new testimony, what happen to all that?
He said that reports that hundreds of people were exposed to forced organ extraction was "not in line" with what his team learned, but added that "the cruelty of the crime is not diminished" even if it concerned just one victim.
Serb prosecutor claimed over 500 serb victims, and he was never able to give one single name of said victims! At last this fabricated case came to en end.
This is a great day for modern democracy ! Finally... Europe is realising that the Serbs will do anything to discredit others. What do you expect from a bunch of bearded peasants.
For years been waiting and waiting and waiting, huh huuuuuh,deep breath.Organ harvestin,Organ harvesting ,you had nothing to argue but Organ harvestin,Dick Marty,Dick Marty Carla Delponte,Carla Delponte,hahahahahaha and thats the headlines for every comentar.But thats the end of it once and forever........
EU prosecutor: "compelling indications" that up to 10 killed in organ harvesting in Kosovo War
[link]
I hope the German government expresses their condemnation. We have our own history with Aribert Heim our Dr. Death.
Attempts to diminish this deliberate cruelty in Kosovo will not minimize nor erase what the barbaric perpetrators did to these victims.
(Waldemar, 29 July 2014 16:04)
I wonder what happened to the rest of victims (over 500 serbs) as you guys were claiming!? The old saying goes: "You tell a lie and by the time it circles around the city, you tend to believe your own lies". End of story.
When Kosova declared independence there wasn't a single day that the Serb prosecutor wasn't coming out with a new story and a new testimony, what happen to all that?
(Presheva, 29 July 2014 15:15)
It's documented here [link]
(Preševo, 29 July 2014 16:18)
I assume you don't understand English. Williamson said that; those that exaggerated numbers of organ trafficking were just that. You should play that cd again and listen carefully. You have no case, and never was.
A very interesting assertion. I have no evidence that you killed a person either, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. This now, is investigation number 3 who have been unable to show any proof that organ harvesting took place. not one. you see, i tend to think different, if one doesn't find something, well it could be down to poor prosecutors. 2, may well be bad luck. 3, well, at this point i start to think there's nothing in it
"Williamson added that "a handful" cases of organ trafficking had been determined."
""The special team came to indisputable evidence against some former KLA leaders," said Williamson, adding that these individuals were at the top of the KLA."
"He stated, and repeated several times, that all of his team's discoveries were "consistent" with the report filed in late 2010 by then CoE rapporteur Dick Marty"
"What happened after the war in Kosovo was a brutal attack on Serbs who wanted to stay, they were mostly old and sick, but also against Albanians who were opposed,"
"The Danas newspaper also quoted a source who "dealt with war crimes before the Hague Tribunal" as saying that organ trafficking "undoubtedly" happened in Kosovo but that such crimes are "difficult to prove." "
etc
Could you motivate why this is amusing? People like you bring shame to their people
No doubt Albanian cyber patriots are going to read the headline and proclaim the whole thing was a farce.
Hahahahahahha
What a great morning news to start off my day.
(Albanian, 29 July 2014 10:37)
Never misses a cue. But the rest of the news is extremely damaging to the image of Kosovo Pristina and its supporters tried to hard to dispel. War crimes, ethnic cleansing, torture, witness intimidation, evidence tampering, and the possibility that the tribunal will be moved to the Hague...my my, not the type of news I'd like to read if I were pro-'Kosova'. And of course the understanding that Marty wasn't making things up but that the evidence to prove what Williamson did not dismiss was simply not there - and you've got one Hell of problem for Europe's youngest democracy.
Hash and the Gang are going to have to go into overtime placating Daddy Washington into saving their bums, though I suspect a deal has already been made to spare the highest ranking KLA goons from prosecution and let second-tier officials take the fall.
Finally, Williamson didn't say organ harvesting didn't take place. He agrees with Marty's accusations. "No evidence" doesn't mean it didn't happen. It means there's no tangible proof anymore to bring anyone to court. Guess all those witnesses suddenly dying paid off.
Let's hope some amount of justice will finally be served against victims of KLA aggression.
But thats the end of it once and forever........
(Gollaku, 29 July 2014 14:16)
"Fifteen years down the line, we have solid information that these things happened, but no physical evidence. There are no bodies, no names of victims," Williamson told the Guardian."
You really didn't read the article, or the report, did you? No you didn't.
Nikolle: I'm nit picking here but by definition "no evidence, doesn't mean it didn't happen" is a correct statement. Not proving something happened does not inherently disprove anything. All though I fail to see how this is related to the topic since the article clearly states evidence exist that it did, in fact, happen. The lack of evidence reffered to is related to the perpetrators, not the crimes.
I do not know what you want to say, but for me it goes without saying, that no matter who is proven guilty of crimes against humanity, might he / she be German, Russian, Serb or Kosovo-Albanien, has to go to jail. In this case we have allegations, and the people in question will have to go to court, and if proven guilty jail. It is simple as that. Any democracy in the world works this way.
What is lacking in this discussion is a 'balance' of what really happened. Between 10,000 and 13,000 Kosovo-Albaniens were killed by serb Forces before and during the war. Thousends of women were raped, etc ...
Williams and Marty look into the fate of 470 obvious victims of UCK atrocities, 370 of those were serbs. They think, but have no proof yet, that less than 10 of those might have been victims of organ theft. If it really happened, these people will have to go to jail, and somebody should throw away the key.
What I miss in this discussion is that nobody looks at the Kosovo-Albaniens who were killed by serbs, and who's numbers were at least 40 times higher. There is also enough evidence that the brutality of serb forces most certainly was as bad or worse as what the UCK did. Both sides have done bad things, which are inexcusable. That is what it comes down to, and it is time to finally start a meaningful reconciliation process. The finger pointing doesn't get anywhere. Both sides have done bad things, and that is people like you, Peggy, forget.
Here's what was published in the Guardian today. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/senior-political-figures-kosovo-prosecution-crimes-humanity?CMP=twt_gu
This is a great day for modern democracy ! Finally... Europe is realising that the Serbs will do anything to discredit others. What do you expect from a bunch of bearded peasants.
(Bam Bam, 29 July 2014 15:39)
Uh oh, looks like you had another brain fart. Did you try to think of what to write before you mashed your keyboard in an angry temper tantrum? This is the best you could come up with? On a Serbian site, which you hope to post your comment? Just when I thought you couldn't possibly get any dumber...
what evidence exists? written testimonials? actual pictures? though now, i am quite confused as to who to follow, Del Ponte has alleged up to 300 were savagely murdered for their organs. Williamson is saying the number is maybe 10 max. i stand by what i wrote before, there is absolutely zero evidence that anything of this nature occurred. are you seriously telling me, that a grotesque crime such as this took place, in Albania of all places, where people had their organs extracted and managed to bury all leads?
If I was an Albanian today with this information cabled all over the world, (In Brussels Kosovos former supporters are furius on KLA), I would sink my head down in shame and embarrassment.
It’s a huge victory for the Serbian people no matter what some internet warriors tell.
This has been known by some people all the way and eventually after several years of hard work done by some of the worlds very best investigators, it’s a total disgrace for the KLA, for the Albanian people showing that the KLA “fighting for liberty” was only a fantasy and especially shows what cowards they were and are. Not glorious at all.
Let them have their phony marches in cheap, ugly clothing to make their people think they were heroes. Talk about hypocrites and cowards.
To Serbs and Serbians; raise your head because this is excellent!
I know since I work internationally that Kosovo will not be independent at all.
A few more recognitions may come and then forever in limbo. Of course, I am sorry to say that as Serbs you may not be able to go everywhere in your province, but that is vice versa and nothing has changed.
There will not be any visa for the Albanians in Kosovo either, (100% sure), but that’s another topic.
I wonder what happened to the rest of victims (over 500 serbs) as you guys were claiming!? The old saying goes: "You tell a lie and by the time it circles around the city, you tend to believe your own lies". End of story.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:42)
==============================
You guys a more than familiar with that.
Just because evidence against partirular perpertrators is not there yet or maybe not ever because top people are getting in the way and even destroyed it, there is evidence that this happened.
If EU wasn't in charge of this maybe there would be even more evidence.
I wonder if they will call Carla to the stand.
even I do not 100% agree with what you say, I think Serbia needs more people like you. Reconciliation should be on the agenda right now, and not the usless game of blaming each other.
(Willi Pfaff, 30 July 2014 13:45)
========================
Why weren't you saying that when Serbs were sent off to Hague and accused of every crime?
Now that Albanians are being accused you are running scared and want it to stop for sake of getting along. Funny that.
I assume you don't understand English. Williamson said that; those that exaggerated numbers of organ trafficking were just that. You should play that cd again and listen carefully. You have no case, and never was.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:59)
I understand it far better than you, who also, it seems, can't read English. Williamson agrees with Marty. Start on page 3 of the document. If you have trouble making out some words, ask an adult, preferably a non-Albanian, for help.
No wonder so many Albanians read Serbian news. It's the most favorable to their beliefs. The rest of the world isn't so gentle.
"In Kosovo, Signs of Organ Harvesting During War"
http://www.newsweek.com/kosovo-signs-organ-harvesting-during-war-261896
"Inquiry finds 'indications' of organ harvesting in Kosovo conflict"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/29/us-eu-kosovo-investigation-idUSKBN0FY1FK20140729
"Prosecutor cites ‘compelling’ signs of Kosovo organ-harvesting atrocities in 1990s"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/prosecutor-cites-compelling-signs-of-kosovo-organ-harvesting-atrocities-in-1990s/article19819257/
"Kosovo prosecutor suspects some killed for organs
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/nation_world/20140729_ap_d8d77e5a58884e9490f51754eb07dcdf.html
"Prosecutor suspects some Kosovo war captives were killed for organs"
http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/prosecutor-suspects-some-kosovo-war-captives-were-killed-for-organs-1.295747
"'Compelling evidence' for Kosovo Liberation Army crimes"
http://www.dw.de/compelling-evidence-for-kosovo-liberation-army-crimes/a-17820407
"KLA guerrillas harvested murdered Serbs’ organs, say EU investigators"
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/enlargement/kla-guerrillas-harvested-murdered-serbs-organs-say-eu-investigators-303776
"Kosovo Prosecutor Suspects Some Killed for Organs"
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/kosovo-prosecutor-suspects-killed-organs-24753291
When Kosova declared independence there wasn't a single day that the Serb prosecutor wasn't coming out with a new story and a new testimony, what happen to all that?
(Presheva, 29 July 2014 15:15)
It's documented here http://www.b92.net/eng/insight/pressroom.php?yyyy=2014&mm=07&nav_id=91127
Like I've predicted, the EU will not convict the KLA heads of anything. They financed the Albanian activities that were going on, do you think they are so stupid as to incriminate themselves? As soon as Serbia let this thing leave the UN and be taken over by the EU, it threw away any chance at justice.
It is fairly obvious that most Albanians and their supporters do not read beyond headlines. This report, coming from the protectors of the KLA, is pretty damning if you ask me. I wasn't expecting it. As for organ harvesting, even some kind of admission that it did occur is a surprise to me. Yes, it happened but after 15 years of destroying evidence, killing witnesses and making sure others keep quiet (which is typical of "Kosova"**), there was enough left to demonstrate it happened.
The B92 headline is deceiving if you ask me. Here are some others:
Top Kosovo ex-fighters face organ trafficking, war crimes indictment -> https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/24579874/top-kosovo-ex-fighters-face-organ-trafficking-war-crimes-indictment
Ex-Kosovo paramilitaries face war crimes indictment -> http://euobserver.com/foreign/125140
'Compelling evidence' for Kosovo Liberation Army crimes -> http://www.dw.de/compelling-evidence-for-kosovo-liberation-army-crimes/a-17820407
I assume you don't understand English. Williamson said that; those that exaggerated numbers of organ trafficking were just that. You should play that cd again and listen carefully. You have no case, and never was.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:59)
I think actually it is you "the truth" who needs to read all the reports coming out of the West. The fact is, and this is why Williamson is holding up his 10 fingers, is to show that the number of people whose organs were most likely extracted is less than 10. Now, although to a criminal-minded individual this may seem funny, as Williamson himself noted, even one person having her or his organs extracted for trade is horror. The biggest issue, as he noted, is the lack of more strong evidence to make an indictment. However, he and others have noted, as reported in Western media, that there is no doubt about the truth related to these charges. What you should hope for is that the perpetrators are brought to justice. The only mistake here was that the headline of this story stinks.
There is plenty of evidence in Rudnice. The mass grave filled with the bodies of Albanians.
(Mark, 29 July 2014 21:00)
=========================
You guys and your beloved US can worry about them. We'll worry about our own because there is no way we will ever get any help in bringing your criminals to account. You want us to help you but you will do all it takes to put roadblock in our way.
So in conclusion PO.
How many times have I told you that the West will wipe their feet on you as soon as they no longer need you ! You still believe they cannot betray you this way ? Then tell them what way would you like to be betrayed. Because in the end they betray everybody. Treason is the western way of existence so they will only tell you NOTHING PERSONAL IT’S JUST BUSINESS. Maybe because today they need more Serbia. Many people on this globe are disappointed by the West and you are just one of them. Confess and be welcome to the Russian Club !
even I do not 100% agree with what you say, I think Serbia needs more people like you. Reconciliation should be on the agenda right now, and not the usless game of blaming each other.
That slimey Yank liar Williamson should have NEVER been taken into the EU task force, because OF COURSE he is lying and minimising the extent of horrendous attrocities that went on under the protection, if not direct orders, of the despicable monsters from his country: William Jefferson Clinton, Marie Jana Korbel who goes under the alias of Madeleine Albright, and military thug Wesley Kanne who goes under the fake name of Wesley Clark.
finger pointing doesn't get anywhere. Both sides have done bad things, and that is people like you, Peggy, forget.
(Willi Pfaff, 30 July 2014 17:34)
=================================
Wow, you want to forget now.
Tell that to your brethren who whenever we want to discuss our victims jump up and down and demand that we talk about your victims.
Albanian, Bosnian and Croatian victims have been talked to death by every western media since the war started. It's time we concentrated on Serbian victims now, especailly when this report is only about Serbian victims.
I have NEVER once heard you instruct your Albanian brothers to let it go and start reconciling. Instead you have always joined them in counting how many and condemnations.
So do us all a favour and take yourself out of this discussion if you want to stop talking about it.
you see, i tend to think different, if one doesn't find something, well it could be down to poor prosecutors. 2, may well be bad luck. 3, well, at this point i start to think there's nothing in it
(Nikolle, 29 July 2014 16:07)
Or it could be 4, evidence tampering and witness intimidation, originally claimed by Marty and confirmed by Williamson in his report, takes place on an institutional scale in Kosovo, hampering such investigations to the point that any indictments of this sort will not hold.
To those Albanian supporters defending criminals out there, this is how the news is now being reported in the US press. So, regardless of your views, people are going to think differently about the KLA from this point forward.
See this link. http://www.valleymorningstar.com/news/world/article_c88fcf99-1af1-5a18-acef-e9cf6ac861c4.html
Nikolle: Please read the article if you want to have a discussion, and not just the bits that you like while ignoring the rest. Saying there is "0 evidence" at this point is preposterous.
As for people trying to excuse the crimes by saying the numbers are a lot lower than previously reported, these are the same people that until very recently said it didn't happen at all. To these people I say stop preaching about morals and guilt when you obviously have a very skewed view on the topic.
Little roberto from frisco made this promise... "about these allegations -- i don't believe it and i am sure that it is a cheap and disgusting stunt by the blgd regime and co. to slow down our recognitions... BUT -- if we find that any of these allegations hold water, i personally promise to broadcast them, far and wide. and that i mean."
I see that the Canadian Danilo, Doot, Danilo Jurisich, Danny Danberry, Danilo Vancouver etc, etc. is also silent. What he said 'didn't pass the sniff test' smells rancid, to me.
And Willi, who recently called the Serbs, "The joke of the Balkans" is a hypocrite who speaks out of both sides of his mouth.
"Can you honestly say that you do not believe that any organ harvesting took place? "
Yes I can honestly say, given the information that I have at the moment, i do not believe it happened. part of the reason is the logistics I told you about. Organ removal is no easy thing, it requires expert surgeons, not militia, to perform it. now unless those KLA people were well trained in that discipline, I find it hard to believe they had it in them to carry it out. not out of their humanity, but out of their ignorance on the thing. organs, once removed, would also have to be handled with care and would have to be a perfect match for those that want them. so it requires a very professional operation, one where records would have to be kept, tests would have to be carried out and then a buyer found. i don't know dude, for me, something of this nature is pretty hard to hide. the report here has not said it happened, it has said there is indication. not that i want to dismiss it, but given the organisation needed to do this, it all sounds a bit too far fetched for me. however, should there be evidence that something like this took place, i guarantee you that i myself will donate money to make sure those responsible end up behind bars.
"We are in a legal situation without precedent, because the team has the power to indict, but we do not have a court," he said, expressing disappointment that the formation of such a court was delayed.
Well, what else does anyone with a sane mind expect when such a court should be formed in Kosovo, under Kosovo laws, and those responsible for the alleged crimes from the past became politicians that decide about the court today?
The old saying goes: "You tell a lie and by the time it circles around the city, you tend to believe your own lies". End of story.
(the truth, 29 July 2014 16:42)
Which explains why you think what you write is "the truth".
"I know since I work internationally that Kosovo will not be independent at all."
trying to decipher the point behind this. are you showing off for working internationally or telling us that you have close contacts? as for the rest of your post, sunshine, however bad you think Albanians are, we have a long way to go, to match or even get close to the war crimes members of the heavenly people are spending time in prison for.
@(j, 30 July 2014 02:23)
Finally a voice of reason amongst all the thoughtless screaming of victory and defeat.
It goes without saying that if enough evidence is found that any UCK members who got involved in crimes against humanity will be put on trial and sentenced if his guild is proven in court, no matter which position he has in the Kosovo society.
A lot of comments here reflect a rather one-sided view, and whatever Serbia did during the wars is either neglected, or the verdicts are labeled as unjustified.
Fact is, that lots of Serb politicians and citizens were sentenced to have committed war crimes, crimes against humanity, etc.. Fact is that the people in power in Serbia now were strong supports and heavily involved in the Milosevic killing regime which started the bloodshed all over the Balkans. It also needs to be seen that serb paramilitaries and regular troops started all this in Kosovo, and whatever we are talking about here happened at the end of the war or after the war was over. Revenge to a certain point, which in my eyes is not excusable as well.
let’s face it, Serbia’s as well as Kosovo’s political leaders leave a lot to be desired, are basically corrupt and unable to lead their countries to a better future.
Both lie to their people, lack integrity, and would never be in power in any functioning democracy.
What’s needed is new thinking, new ideas, new political leaders, but they are nowhere in sight.
Willi Pfaff: Do you not think that the reason us Serbs don't mention what the serbs did during the war here is because that isn't the topic? But ok, I'll humor you by saying that in no way do I as a Serb deny what happened. I hope all perpetrators get caught and that justice will be done. From my diskussion with fellow Serbs I feel that most of us want to move on but not by forgetting the past. The Serbian government has admitted, and apologised for atrocities and our path must be the same as one the Germans took which is to acknowledge our mistakes and help make things better. I personally don't feel a collective guilt about what others have done in the name of Serbia but I do feel a resposibilty to take part in reconciliation, e.g. by acknowledging the past instead of trying to deny it.
coninuation on my last post:
Reconciliation however is made difficult by outside sources being hell bent on shifting all the blame one way, one example of this is the unprecedented destruction of evidence in the ICTY and acquittal of say for example, Naser oric (unrelated to Kosovo). This western policy is very counter productive (all though one does sometimes believe it might be intended) because amongst Serbs international institutions loose credibility and for the other sides of the conflict it creates what I believe to be a false belief of innocence. This article and the way a lot of people have reacted to it is a perfect example of that. "Our crimes doesn't matter because you commited crimes as well" is a logic that has been used here several times and it's just not a sustainable environment for reconciliation. I don't advocate making exceptions just to please people but you must agree that international law have been applied on a rather ad hoc nad one-sided basis.
As for where the bloodshed started, your view is an over simplified one and it's rather naive to think history is that un-complicated. In fact you don't have to do very much reading at all to see the issue is way more complex than you describe it.
i take it you did not read the report. the report itself says that there is compelling indication, not evidence, that this occurred. now, you can define compelling indication however you like (you seem to take it as it means the allegations are true) but there is a difference between that and saying it definitely happened. why do i have a hard time believing this? because logistically its hard to do anything of the like without trained professionals about. the idea that armed rebels were well trained to perform such a procedure, not even in pristine conditions, but in Albania of all places and in 1999 (did you ever go to Albania in the 90's? visiting a hospital was a health risk) is truly fanciful. the idea that you can honestly hide a crime of this grotesque nature, is again hard for me to follow. should there be any sort of evidence that something of this magnitude took place, well, i will be the first to hang my head in shame and will donate to make sure those responsible face justice.
even I do not 100% agree with what you say, I think Serbia needs more people like you. Reconciliation should be on the agenda right now, and not the usless game of blaming each other.
Nikolle: It's this comment, the last bit specifically that I find strange:
"This now, is investigation number 3 who have been unable to show any proof that organ harvesting took place. not one. you see, i tend to think different, if one doesn't find something, well it could be down to poor prosecutors. 2, may well be bad luck. 3, well, at this point i start to think there's nothing in it"
Williams confirms findings in line with the Marty report, that does not add up to three investigations that has found nothing.
and also this: "Williamson is saying the number is maybe 10 max."
I'm not sure why you added the maybe bit to what he said, this is what the B92 article quotes:
"Williamson added that "a handful" cases of organ trafficking had been determined. "
Really? Nothing in it? Can you honestly say that you do not believe that any organ harvesting took place? I'm not a doctor or surgeon but removing organs without damaging them but with no regard for the orgon "donor" doesn't seem comparable to actual medicine and surgery. I could be wrong butyou seem to make a point of the state of albanian hospitals at the time being unqualified for advanced surgery. Hospitals treat people however, organ harvesting is really not the same thing is it?
I read the report in its entirety. What it said was there is solid information, the word evidence never figured.
(Nikolle, 30 July 2014 10:07)
Yes, but solid information is pretty damning when coming from the mouth of Westerners. Many Albanian supporters laughed at the idea of organ trafficking before, but now they can no longer do this. The table is turning.
"Can you honestly say that you do not believe that any organ harvesting took place? "
And why do you "honestly believe" that such an unbelievable thing, for which there is no concrete evidence, did take place?
It makes no business sense.
A blackmarket organ can be purchased from a willing donor for 500 euros + hospital care. Let's say 2000euros cost.
When there is a fairly steady stream of willing donors, why take the one harvested in an inaccessible mountain village, harvested on a dirt road by a farm hand, then driven for hours down the worst roads in europe, then flow through some of the most closely monitored airspace during a time of war.
Why take the more expensive (taking into account flying costs), and worse quality (removed by a farmhand in unhygienic conditions), when you can have one taken from a willing donor in a hospital.
Makes no sense.
Balkans folks of all variations constantly do themselves disservice by exaggerating. 1000s of people are missing (Serbs and Albanians) from the war, their fates unknown. That's a bad enough story. No need to make a balkan horror story out of it - A monster in the bushes took my son's organs AND got rich from it!
Organ harvesting case is the FIG LEAVE of the monstruos crimes done by the Serbian regime in the war over Kosovo.Despite happened or not it could not be more monstruos than KILLING INERME CHILDS AND WOMAN JUST LIKE ELDER PEOPLE.Not just one,not a "handfull" but hundreds.Cinism that Serbian society express by focusing on this TALE express the cold blood with wich those crimes were done.I wish you will find the cold blood to realise you will not step foot in Kosovo anymore.It will be your GRAVE!
I have only expressed, in general, my opinion of the horrors of international illegal organ harvesting.
The substantial profits made, lack of availability and the desperation and vulnerability of poor and disadvantaged donors are all documented.
Unlike you, I have shared factual information. I spread no rumors nor offered opinions on other topics.
I do not know what you mean by weirdo name-dropping.
Mr. Danilo Jurisich - On average 1,200 people in Switzerland are waiting for an organ around 100 die every year while waiting.
The illegal taking of human organs is very profitable. The profit on the black market for organs is estimated in billions USD and second only to weapons trafficking. A heart can fetch 1 million euros.
In Switzerland the waiting time for a kidney is 2.5 to 3 years and this is without requiring a relationship between donor and recipient as is the law in several European countries. Only 13 donors per million inhabitants in Switzerland. Maybe your mates at La Muse can tell you about this.
Organ prices on global criminal markets are based on availability the basic economic concept of supply and demand. Prices paid to the seller or the buyer varies greatly by country.
The average paid by a kidney buyer, in USD, is about $150,000 and seller $5,000. For instance,in Yemen, the broker averages $60,000. In Israel, seller averages $10,000 buyer up to $135,000. Very profitable.
In Kenya the seller gets $650. If not stolen, the poor donor is often taken advantage of and not even paid.
There is no steady stream of donors as you state. The WHO reported there is an international shortage of organs and this has led to increased human trafficking, profiteering and cost. Sadly, children are also victims.
Your attempts to diminish this horror is very disturbing.
Well, what else does anyone with a sane mind expect when such a court should be formed in Kosovo, under Kosovo laws, and those responsible for the alleged crimes from the past became politicians that decide about the court today?
(uestioner, 1 August 2014 14:54)
If what you say had any veracity then it would make sense but since Kosovo passed a resolution for the EU to establish a court outside of Kosovo using international judges and prosecutors using Kosovo laws, then it sounds more like typical mindless Serb gum flapping.
I remember reading 500e on a media report. I'll have a look at the official reports.
even if the numbers are higher than the 500e I read, the whole thing seems pretty improbable - a farmhand cutting out organs on a dirt road in a war zone and then transporting them down the worst roads in Europe and flying them in closely monitored airspace during a war just in time for surgery.
Unlike you, I haven't made up my mind and, as soon as some evidence for these stories comes up, It'll inform my opinion. Until then, as with everything, skepticism is healthy. Otherwise, we're just spreading rumors.
Like I already said, the known facts are bad enough - that 1000s of people are missing from the war, their fates unknown.
btw, what's with all the weirdo name-dropping? Is that supposed to be some kind of intimidation attempt?
You wrote inaccurate information about illegal organ harvesting and attempted to portray it as fact. I simply responded to correct your misinformation. Nothing disingenuous about that.
My countrymen/women are polite and honest, to a fault, at times. I have no motives, unlike you, to come here and disparage anyone. Furthermore, I do not try to minimize the horrors of stealing human organs, as you do in order to support your opinions, by distorting facts.
You have much to learn about positive human interaction, Mr. Danilo Jurisich.
It’s a huge victory for the Serbian people no matter what some internet warriors tell.
Staff, 29 July 2014 20:48
Staff, be a human being for at least once. This is not a victory for anyone. None of this is. This along with the bodies of Albanians being unearthed from mass graves in Serbia is a shame for all humanity, but especially for us Serbs and Albanians. We did this to each other. We killed each other. We the simple common folks killed each other. Those in position of power back then are still prime ministers and presidents.Not only that but people, you included, seem to be totally OK with it, because now after people have died you can call it "A VICTORY". What the hell did you win when thousands of people are dead? Seeing the murder of defenseless victims as victory is total maddness. Whoever can't see this, is not a normal human being. Your attitude is precisely why crimes like these happen. It is mind boggling to me how a person can view the bodies of Albanian kids being found in mass graves in Serbia as a loss for Serbia, and crimes committed against Serbs being viewed as a victory for Serbs. A normal person cannot see a crime and call it a victory. This is not a game. These were people who had a life, who had parents, kids, sisters, brothers, wives, husbands, who had hopes, goals, and the desire to live a normal life. I take it you yourself would not like to be in the situation where a duchebag in the internet calls your death "A Victory" for the Serbs.
Staff, 29 July 2014 20:48)
It is nice to see you back. We have had to rely on your brother sj to provide us all the predictions based on all the confidential sources of info that the rest of us do not know about. I stillear remember the one where you based on meetings you had attended could guarantee that 5 EU countries would rescend their recognitions in the next 3 months or something like that about 2 years ago.
Mr. Danilo Jurisich-The Kosovo Medicus Clinic Indictment and court proceedings are published. Known facts are documented through interviews of donors and recipients. I suggest you read them.
EUR 500 at the Kosovo Medicus Clinic for a kidney, you say?
The organ donors at the Medicus Clinic were falsely promised to receive EUR 10,000-20,000. It is verified that one donor, an exception, received EUR 8,100 for her kidney; many donors received nothing.
There was no fairly steady stream of donors. These willing donors that you speak of were and are few in number and the poor and most vulnerable in our society desperate for money.
False statements, indeed, diminish the horrors of illegal organ harvesting and this is a disservice to all.
Ok, then, mr. Geneva resident. Basically, you're being disingenuous, and that's fine. Certainly not something new on these boards.
We're talking about the organ-snatching stories from kidnapped Serbians for which there is no real evidence and now you're saying you're just talking about the illegal organs trade in general.
Staff, 29 July 2014 20:48)
It is nice to see you back. We have had to rely on your brother sj to provide us all the predictions based on all the confidential sources of info that the rest of us do not know about. I stillear remember the one where you based on meetings you had attended could guarantee that 5 EU countries would rescend their recognitions in the next 3 months or something like that about 2 years ago.
(a New Day, 31 July 2014 14:02)
Haha, nice memory... Indeed, our dear friend Staff said http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=67454#k214821, I quote:
"Yes ! Things will be sorted out and Kosovo will have to go back to the negotiation table. Also, I know from sources inside the top EU that they know that 5 countries will withdraw their recognitions right away and another 15 in a month or two. Thats a fact, wait and see.
(Staff, 29 May 2010 17:31)"
"Thats a fact" part, in particular, is really entertaining :)
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