Statute changes in Vukovar "discriminatory"

Croatia should be boted out of EU for its racist behavior towards Serbian comunity who live in croatia, EU must put a stop to racisim in EU.

only in croatia, the third reich functioned quite well in letting the croatians eliminiating serbs , and now the fourth reich is well and healthy functioning under the EU, sorry Germany, in continuing this vision of elimination of the serbian proper population

Interesting country, this Croatia. Here, a town can make its own laws which contradict state laws?

Well, what can I say? Croatia is a "discriminatory" country, and one of the most blissfully racist countries I've ever been in. Typical for a people and a mentality that needs to come out of the 1990s. Their cities outside Zagreb and the Dalmatian tourist belt are graying, emptying, and dying and yet the one thing to obsess over is the use of an alphabet. Tudjman must be proud of his little sheeple.

Za dom Stupefy! :)

@ lenard your a bosanac so don't worry about Serbs in krajina.....

This is just another example of Serbs trying to portray themselves as "victims" again. Change the bloody record!

Ian, why are you blaming the Serbs for this? This has everything to do with the fact of respecting minorities in Vukovar. I agree whole heartedly that it's the same language....Does that mean that Croations have to behave violently?? Knowing their combined pasts, who does this help?? NO ONE.. Your distaste for Serbs and Serbia is obvious...who knows maybe there's some truth to the victimization of Serbs and Serbia, certainly the demonization by the media (especially Ruder Finn)of the Serbs has clearly made an impression on you.

This is what happens when a city that has a Croatian history is attacked, brutalized and then those that were involved in the horific acts move back in as if nothing ever happened. Vukovar's was part of the Kingdom of Croatia in the 11th century and before that it was still part of modern day Slavonija.

In 1991, approximately 2000 civilians defended Vukovar for 87 days against the JNA army comprised of Serbs and Cetniks...36,000 troops supplemented with 110 vehicles and tanks and dozens of planes...we defended with primitive weapons and the town of Vukovar was brutalized and compared to WWII Stalingrad...all of this was from the hands of Serbs!

Think about it people, be realistic and consider the situation. Serbs collaborated and destroyed a city, killed over 2000 innocent people, not a single building was left standing and today, you expect Croatians in Croatia to put up a sign in cirilica while you know how to read in Latin, why? To satisfy yourself?

Serbs are responsible for brutalizing that town, there isnt a question about it....why would you expect people to forget that since the majority of those that live there lost a family member from Serb hands!

(Ian, UK, 6 November 2013 14:19)

Once again you have no idea what you’re talking about. The Latin Script was forced on Serbs by after 1945 to make one happy family called Yugoslavia. It was never part of Serbian history culture or literature. In fact we have a posting earlier this week showing the airport at Zagreb in 1932 and the words Zagreb written in Cyrillic.
As far as “Serbs trying to portray themselves as victims”, its only Croats making themselves look like prize jackasses in front to the world community and Brussels especially. In late 2013 the word Croatia is not a very pleasant word in the halls of power in Brussels. Regardless we will get Cyrllic in Croatia no matter what happens, but I’m loving this Croat behaviour as it only entrenches the fact that Serbs had to take up arms in Croatia because it’s a fascists state.
All Belgrade is doing is diplomatically pressuring Zagreb to resolving this issue soon otherwise Belgrade can put sanctions on Croat imports and within 4 weeks Croatia is on its back.
As far Bosnian or Montenegrin languages are concerned that is the doing of the UK and US because they created so don’t try and lay it at someone else’s’ doorstep.

@Mario-Interesting that Croatia and Albania are those that made Greater Croatia and Albania on its way to make Greater Albania, but all the time lying about Serb wanting Greater Serbia. By the way, Serbia just wanted to live in peace, but others wanted the war. Enough of this garbage, by now, you got what you wanted, what else is there that you want? Talking about murderer past, think about what Croats did to Serbs in WW2. Were the Serbs sepose to wait for Croats to repeat Jasenovac again without even trying to protect themselves this time. I am sure that those who lost the family member on both sides are angry, don't you think?

She stated concern about the Serb minority's position and safety in Vukovar, but also added she hoped Croatia, as a member of the EU, would uphold the EU standards and its own law.

"Denying the right to their own language to the Serb community is not the solution to the escalated tension in Vukovar. On the contrary, the act increases the feeling of insecurity among the Serbs in the town," Drašković stressed.

-----

I'll tell you with this is a load of rubbish, because Croatian and Serbian are the same language; the language is Serbo-Croatian.

The so called "Croatian Language" and "Serbian Language" are just dialects of the same language which use different alphabets. However the so called "Serbian Language" uses both sets of Alphabets/ Scripts these days anyway. So the Serbs of Vukovar are not being denied anything in their own language as it is all available in Serbo-Croatian in the Latin Script.

This is just another example of Serbs trying to portray themselves as "victims" again. Change the bloody record!

Now have the so called "Bosnian Language" and "Montenegrin Language". Which language will be invented next?

Putin on Minority Rights:

"In Russia live Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer their Law, then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Russia does not need minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'. We better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of most minorities. When this honorable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the national interest first, observing that the minorities are not Russians."

Considering and let me mention everything that Serbs done to Vukovar city and People who have lived here in Vukovar it would be fair for you Serbs to shut up and pray to God for forgiveness! Croatian Vukovar city has been multiethnic community theta lived in peace, only until that day you have counted it in to your plans of "Greater Serbia". Hate towards Croatia helped you Serbs grow to never before remembered heights of violence, hunger for blood, killing, "I try to guess what for". More than 15,000 (Fifteen THOUSAND!) Croats were murdered in areas occupied by you Serbs as in Vukovar…, and more than 4000 are still missing. I wonder IF AMERICANS WOULD EVER GIVE ANY RIGHTS TO BIN LADEN AND HIS FOLLOWERS.

These excuses for Croatia's racism are laughable. So because they were "victims" they have justification for acting like racist biggots? So this is "Croatia" and its people should "speak Croatian or get out"? LOL

By that logic, Serbia should not only legalize Cyrillic as the only alphabet, but force all Croats and other non-Serbs to use Cyrillic, or get out.

For all those nationalist expats trolling here in Croatia's defense bemoaning the latent and endemic racism that permeates Serbia and the Serbian people, time and reality calls for your country to be modern, civilized, and tolerant. Not my fault you associate an alphabet with the embarrassing wars of the 1990s and justification for defending your "Domovina" against a threat that is as imagined as it is inanimate. not my fault Cyrillic reminds you of a people that rose up against the second-class citizenship status your "Doctor" Tudjman gave them in that Croatian constitution that looked like it was written by the children of Croatian expats in Chicago.

Because if we're going to use victimhood and outside aggression as an excuse for defensive nationalism, Jasenovac and the NDH negates anything you shed tears over regarding Vukovar and by the same extension, the Latin alphabet should be banned in all places Serbs live because it serves as a reminder of what happened to them in the 1940s.

If you think that's a ridiculous reason or you feel that's "in the past", then so is the 1990s.

Za dom stupefy!

Totaly laughable much to do about nothing when in the country of Croatia be like Croatians. If you want Serbia just south cross the Danube River you can get as much as you want.

She stated concern about the Serb minority's position and safety in Vukovar, but also added she hoped Croatia, as a member of the EU, would uphold the EU standards and its own law.

"Denying the right to their own language to the Serb community is not the solution to the escalated tension in Vukovar. On the contrary, the act increases the feeling of insecurity among the Serbs in the town," Drašković stressed.

-----

I'll tell you with this is a load of rubbish, because Croatian and Serbian are the same language; the language is Serbo-Croatian.

The so called "Croatian Language" and "Serbian Language" are just dialects of the same language which use different alphabets. However the so called "Serbian Language" uses both sets of Alphabets/ Scripts these days anyway. So the Serbs of Vukovar are not being denied anything in their own language as it is all available in Serbo-Croatian in the Latin Script.

This is just another example of Serbs trying to portray themselves as "victims" again. Change the bloody record!

Now have the so called "Bosnian Language" and "Montenegrin Language". Which language will be invented next?

The official languages are BCS - Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, as recognized within the EU institutions. That's what you have to put on your CV/Resume, so someone who speaks serbo-croat can count all the additional languages. What the EU says, goes, how ever bigger BS it is. It's been going on for years and only fools haven't noticed.

When it comes to official translation or even interpretation for the EU, my close contacts tell me it can be the same person translating these 'different' languages. All that is required is a change of cabin or sign in the cabin. There is simply no money any more to splash out on translators/interpreters for each small country and hasn't been for quite a while.

The bad news for EU translators and interpreters is that the once plentiful food and drink has been severely curtailed. On one one occasion van Rompuy insisted on continuing a session throughout the night, pissing everyone off and particularly the interpreters who didn't have a proper break and were offered a few stale croissants to fight over for breakfast whilst the diplomats tucked in. It's not just rotten in Denmark....

I wont get into it more, you are touching on a very sensitive topic that still hurts many people...no different than Jasenovac!

There is a huge difference between Vukovar and Jasenovac. First Jasenovac was a concentration camp where over half a million innocent civilians were brutally murdered whereas in Vukovar merely 300 were killed and those were only men. 2 you croats were the only ones that had a concentration camp for Children in Jasenovac and you want to compare this with Vukovar?Really?Last but not least even today 70 yrs after ww2 you croats celebrate Jasenovac every year in Cavoglave where hundreds of thousands of croat fasists gather to listen to Thompson and his songs that celebrates this genocide.

The EU is a joke. Here in Brussels it doesn't bother them the slightest that it is obvious that what they demand and what they accept are two entirely different things.

On the upside, corruption is everywhere as a senior tory UK MP offered to use his contacts for business (invest 10mill in Albanian and he knows everyone important there):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10429206/Senior-Conservative-MP-uses-political-contacts-to-further-business-empire.html

"...The MP suggested that the undercover reporter, posing as a foreign businessman, should invest £10 million in a group of boutique hotels in Albania. Mr Pritchard was formerly the chairman of the all party parliamentary group (APPG) for the country and is still a member of the committee. .... He asked to be paid £3,000 a month for his consultancy services, as well as 3 per cent of any deal — meaning he could have received more than £300,000 to secure the investment in Albania.

Speaking about his contacts in the country, he said: “To be completely brutal, I know the mayor, I know the prime minister, I know the speaker....Mr Pritchard visited Tirana, the capital of Albania, in 2010, but told the undercover reporter that he was in regular contact with senior politicians, even sending a text message to the mayor of Tirana during one of the meetings to discover what kind of investment the authorities were interested in securing...."

Ian, Uk.
You seem to be missing a point here. There use to be "Serbo-Croatian" or "Croato-Serbian" (which ever way you wanted to call it) and both dialects were fine, and use of both alphabets. Croats complained they were oppressed in Yugoslavia.
But Croats insisted their language is "Croatian" (and you are right there are "Bosnian" and "Montenegrine" on their insistance) and in 1990 banned use of Serbian dialect and alphabet. Tudjman removed all billingual plaques everywhere, banned cyrillic newspapers, etc.
Speaker of the house led mob in Zadar to burn Serbian houses (May 2nd 1991 - first burnt houses in Yugoslavia).
Vukovar, Mario?
Perhaps you should have listen to Josip Reihl-Kir when he was trying to stop outbreak of war there, instead of killing him. Perhaps your MINISTERS shouldn't have fired those rockets into Borovo Village. Perhaps you shouldn't have (like in other Croatian cities) kill Serbs and blow their houses and businesses?
Is this not Croatian newspaper article dated Dec 5th 2002 that gives accurate account of life in Vukovar before the battle began?

http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral193.html

But, Mario, Putin may be right. I think that Serbia should ban "Croatian" language and use of Roman Alphabet in Serbia, too, then. There is no reason that more then 70,000 Croats, mostly in Belgrade and Vojvodina , don't speak "ekavski" and write Cyrillic. Agree?

The so called "Croatian Language" and "Serbian Language" are just dialects of the same language which use different alphabets.
(Ian, UK, 6 November 2013 14:19)

Yes Ian, so why then are you bent out of shape another alphabet is being used? If it's the same language, it shouldn't be a problem. Cyrillic was used in Hapsburg Croatia, and it was used in Yugoslav Croatia. So why shouldn't it be used in Tudjman's Croatia? Excuse you for Serbs for using an alphabet in a place you suddenly feel less tolerant and open minded about.

I'll tell you with this is a load of rubbish, because Croatian and Serbian are the same language; the language is Serbo-Croatian
=================================
Would you be willing to go to Zagreb and tell them that?

So what would be wrong in using Cyrillic then? All the same so there should be no problem.

Serbs are responsible for brutalizing that town, there isnt a question about it....why would you expect people to forget that since the majority of those that live there lost a family member from Serb hands!
(Croatian Canadian, 6 November 2013 16:41)

Croatia is part of EU and should try make their country multi-cultural. But because of idiots like you that will never happen. Don't act you croats didn't kill serbs, we are still waiting for you to beg for forgiveness for slaughtering our people in your death camps in WW2. Second, your lucky Croatia is even a country, because if it were not part of Yugoslavia, Italy would have take over all of that land. When tito died, Croatia was becoming very nationalistic and it was just matter of time with western countries backing it that there would be a war.

Bam Bam said, "Let me remind you that the Serbs will never be excepted as equals in Croatia. We will continue to treat your kind as sub-human.. I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic."

You are a fine example of all things Croatian. You represent Croatia very well.

Serbs murdered, raped, burn villages to the ground...IN CROATIA...lets see what you'd say if it happened in Serbia?
(Croatian Canadian, 8 November 2013 17:08)
===========================
You're making it sound as though Serbia attacked Croatia and did this. Don't forget that Serbs in Croatia (this land has been their home for centuries, well before Croatia was ever a country) had all this done to them by Croatians so it was happening to both by both. The difference being is that Serbs were on THEIR land and did not invade anyone while Croats who were also on their land started the whole thing by bringing out their Nazi symbols and hatred and taking away all their rights. Serbs had no choice but to fight for their lives.

You Croatians always come up with that garbage how it was Serbs who came to Croatia to murder not the other way around but you conveniently forget who were the Serbs who fought and the fact that no Croat was killed in Serbia as a result of any hatred.

Again, Serbs did not invade Croatia and started murdering. Serbs were already there forever and fought for their lives and homes.

What should we expect - that every town where Serbs make up a third of the population declare as cities special reverence?
(Hurem, 8 November 2013 03:22)
=======================
You really don't get it.
Serbs DID NOT emigrate to any of those areas. Serbs have been on that land forever. It IS THEIR LAND and always has been. Don't treat it as Croatia was there, Serbs emigrated there from Serbia a few decades ago, became a substantial number and wanted special treatment.
The fact that the border changed forcibly and violently doesn't make it any less Serb land. Tell us, who was there first, Serbs or Croats? Can you answer that? When did the Serbs appear there and when did Croats appear there?

So Serbs cannot be ignored or chased off.

Serbs are returning to vukovar and serbs in vukovar are hitting the 50% mark and krajina serbs are going to become majority soon ...the census showed 200,000 Serbs but they also said that 100,000 Serbs didn't take the census. I think like many think krajina should have full autonomy or even independence because those lands were never part of Croatia and just like Istria and Dalmatia should also separate since those lands were Italian lands and never Croatian also, those lands were given to Yugoslavia and since there is no Yugoslavia Italy has the right to take their lands back legally just like the Serbs do with krajina ....from what I have read Croatia was only Zagreb in history and the surroundings of the city and that's it......

"She stated concern about the Serb minority's position and safety in Vukovar".

What about the concern of the 264 Croats who were marched from Vukovar hospital to Ovcare and killed in cold blood, where was there safety for those people. You fools keep mentioning Jasenovac but are reluctant to mention Serbian General Milan NEDIC's activities during that time. You people know nothing about Balkan history or a reluctant to hear the truth. You can have your cirilica but not in Vukovar. I ask you people for the final time "What do you want in Croatia, it's not your home, go to Serbia and be happy" for heavens sake !

"I ask you people for the final time "What do you want in Croatia, it's not your home, go to Serbia and be happy" for heavens sake!"

So - within what now constitutes as Croatia - Serbian Orthodox churches were built by Croatian Catholic human beings 550+ years ago?

As for 'victim status' and arguing over which sides families unwillingly poured the most blood into the most graves - really how far does this one sided ownership of simply being human extend? 'Our dead are more dead than your dead' is perhaps a better way to understand that arguments significance?

It is funny how croats see themselves. Funny because civilised nations think of them as "fake austrians" or "fake germans".

Anyway - serbs have to leave their homes in croatia and return to serbia, albanians have to leave kosovo and return to albania.

@ (the truth)...you said: "Croatia is part of EU and should try make their country multi-cultural. But because of idiots like you that will never happen. Don't act you croats didn't kill serbs"

So now that Croatia is past of the EU and should portray a higher standard than Serbia...and you fools van just continue being as primitive as always? You bring up Jasenonac as if you won't be satisfied until its even. What is your explanation for Serbs destroying Vukovar, for entering Slovenia, for bombing Dubrovnik...who was being attacked in those cities that caused your people to attack peaceful people. Tell me, what exactly did Croatia do other than declare independance that caused the war? What did my family in Slavonija do that caused you to attack them, bomb the cities? The rest of Europe was peacefully removing communism from their system, we first wanted autonomy and were denied...Milosevic was openly "Riding the wave of nationalism"...Serbs in Krajina declared that they would secede from Croatia and then Croatian Serbs also formed the SAO Western Slavonia and the SAO of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srijem.

You can see things the way you want to, evidently, Croatia had succeeded in becoming independant, we prevailed...svi za jedan, jedan za sve!

Today Vukovar is Croatia, its a symbolic place...and as I had mentioned yesterday...2000 self organized civilians with primitive weapons defended against 36,000 Serb troops! Vukovar is Croatia...deal with it!

I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic.
(Bam Bam, 7 November 2013 12:46)

Actually, I have to respond to this again because it's so hilarious. I tried reading through what passed as your "comment" before, but I kept laughing. So you first get upset because people died in Vukovar - 264 to be exact. Then you get pissed because Jasenovac was referenced - I know, a sore point for you - and then you try to give a pathetic counterargument by dropping Milan Nedic's name. Ok, what did he do? And how many Serbs today glorify him? How many death camps did he set up? Are you that dumb to think Nedic, some irrelevant Quisling, is worse than Pavelic, the head of a government that set up its own death camps?

If you're going to lecture about Balkan history, anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows Serbs rejected Nedic and resisted both the Nazis and your collaborating grandparents through the Chetniks or Partisans.

So you try to deny the crimes committed by Croats and put blame on Serbs. But you then get pissed because you're reminded of Croatia's own past you threaten to do more than Jasenovac ever did if given the opportunity?

You kid, are quite possibly the biggest idiot to ever troll on B92. Not only are you grotesquely ignorant of the facts you claim to know, but it's never good to threaten genocide when you're trying to come off as morally superior. And trolling from America just makes you sound more ridiculously impotent.

you said: "So you first get upset because people died in Vukovar - 264 to be exact" - You trying to be funny at the expense of the dead?
(Croatian Canadian, 7 November 2013 17:23)

No, I'm responding to an idiot who sheds political tears for one group of people and doesn't blink an eye advocating systematic genocide for another. Read the rest of my post.

As far as "moving in", Serbs have lived in Croatia for more than 300 years. I'd like to think they'e earned the right to their alphabet and language.

Just like the Hungarians and other non-Serbs of Vojvodina. The minute I see some Obraz group destroy signs in the Latin alphabet, then we can look at what's happening in Croatia on an equal footing.

I'e never denied Vukovar either. Don't know where you think I'm trivializing a number someone else referenced. Thank goodness we at least agree on the banality of ethnic war and ethnic cleansing.

Serbs murdered, raped, burn villages to the ground...IN CROATIA...lets see what you'd say if it happened in Serbia?
(Croatian Canadian, 8 November 2013 17:08)

So what?You did the same or are you saying that you croats didnt murder, rape and burn serb civilianas and serb villages in Croatia?

'Now have the so called "Bosnian Language" and "Montenegrin Language". Which language will be invented next?'
(Ian, UK)

I agree with you in principle, Ian. A different alphabet does not a different language make. Alphabets are more cultural than linguistic, or in this case it is steeped in religious differences, ie, two aspects of the same religion.

When the English switched from using the Runic alphabet to the Latin one the language did not change at all; nor did it when the Turks, after World War One, switched from Arabic to Latin symbols.

The absurdity of claiming that Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and even Montenegrin are separate languages typifies the mentality in that part of the world, though you may or may not like to know that I have rarely met a Serb who thinks he/she speaks a different language from Croats, Bosnians or Montenegrins. I know quite a few Croats, too, who think it's all absurd. Only some in those latter groups tend to make such ridiculous claims.

There's nothing wrong in calling the same language by different names according to nationality, as do the Dutch and the Flemish of Northern and Western Belgium. Most do NOT do this, ie, English, French and Spanish speaking nations. There's a lot wrong, however, in claiming that the they are separate languages that require subtitles, translators, etc. It's embarrassing!

All Belgrade is doing is diplomatically pressuring Zagreb to resolving this issue soon otherwise Belgrade can put sanctions on Croat imports and within 4 weeks Croatia is on its back.
As far Bosnian or Montenegrin languages are concerned that is the doing of the UK and US because they created so don’t try and lay it at someone else’s’ doorstep.
(sj, 6 November 2013 22:20) Are the Serbs that dance we resolved the issue no to Serbian chicken scratch. As for sanctions Serbia put on Croatian and Slovenians products 100% duties in the 1990's for a hole decade. The one that got hurt badly is Serbia it is still trying to recover from its inbred pure stupidity. I love the Serbs as usual using dumb arguments we had to do the worst criminalety. To bring to Serbs/Serbia infamous notoriety in to the new century. When the world thinks of Serbs that is what they think of them. A great PR image Serbs created for them selfs without even thinking. That is paying dividens to Serbia for decades to come like a bad odour. Sure we can also use that dumb lame excuse like Serbs in the next go around also.

The most worrying aspect of this decision relates to how it came about, not its content. I accept that it is a controversial decision in its own right but it is another example of bending to the will of the mob, as with the decision not to secure the pride parade in Belgrade. Sometimes the majority are wrong and it is not undemocratic to point this out to them. Voters have a chance every few years to vote for those that they believe will best represent their overall interests. They then have to let them get on with the job rather than taking to the streets every time something happens that they don't like. This applies just as much to Turkey, Brazil, Egypt and elsewhere. When democracy itself is threatened then it is time to act and Mursi discovered this to his cost but countries, regions and towns cannot function effectively if thugs on the street are trying to run the show rather than elected representatives.

@Balkan Anthrapologist. … Let me remind you that the Serbs will never be excepted as equals in Croatia. We will continue to treat your kind as sub-human.. I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic.
(Bam Bam, 7 November 2013 12:46)

Son, I can see that you and that Ian feller need Jesus real bad. Yall need to wake up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF6K-Iiqshg

@Balkan Anthropologist...you are obviously a Pametnjakovic!

you said: "So you first get upset because people died in Vukovar - 264 to be exact" - You trying to be funny at the expense of the dead? When you are insincere and insensitive to those were killed, how do you ever expect anyone to extend any "olive branch"? Do you now see why we dont want you, dont accept you and dont want anything to do with your people and language? The interesting thing about this topic is this, we are talking abour Serbs living in Croatia...not Croats in Serbia! When do Croats ever demand anything in Serbia...when have they attempted to collaborate and secede from any part of Serbia...Serbian land or a Serbian town...never?!?!

You dont seem to grasp a very important detail, if I move into your neighborhood/community...I cant change your traditions, language, laws and/or just decide I want that community as my own...it doesnt work that way. Do you see how it feels in Kosovo? What music would you like to dance to tomorrow, one day you want it this way and the next you want to change that tune!

"264 to be exact" - I've never denied Jasenovac never happened, the number of those that died is important but vary depending on who you ask...I dont have the knowledge either way to say...but I will say that any number is unacceptable. With that said, those days are way over and lessons must be learned, Serbia has definitely been the aggressor so until you learn to admit, we will never move forward!

Balkan Anthropologist - I'm really not trying to be a smart ass when I say this but maybe you can teach a few Serbs some lessons on history...you said "Serbs have lived in Croatia for more than 300 years" - well at least you have the decency to admit that, many here believe Croatia has just appeared since the 90's and that we've never existed as a people/nation before that. I've read about this for years and have concluded the history from 6 century but really pronounced in 7th. Regardless...I really dont want to go back...I want to move forward.

you said: "Don't know where you think I'm trivializing a number someone else referenced"...and then that "only 246 people died"...do you see how that can be perceived as a very derogatory and strong portrayal of disrespect? If I said the prisoners in Jasenovac primarily died because nobody had food during those days and really, only 30,000 died, you'd say I was provoking you...right? But in your comment, you say thats fact? I wont get into it more, you are touching on a very sensitive topic that still hurts many people...no different than Jasenovac!

There is no such thing as earning a right...especially after a vicious and terrible war! Both sides perceive the other as the aggressor...nobody will ever win that arguement, we'd rather die...because we are too proud...both sides! Live in Croatia, as a Croatian of Serb descent...live with the language and we can start there and hopefully you are treated with respect and kindness!

In my opinion, lurid is absence of any sanctions to Croatia by the EU, no condemnation of this outrageous behavior. What should we expect - that every town where Serbs make up a third of the population declare as cities special reverence?

I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic.
(Bam Bam, 7 November 2013 12:46)

I wish I had the key to your heart, so when I open it I can find all the love and tenderness buried there.

This is just another example of Serbs trying to portray themselves as "victims" again. Change the bloody record!

(Ian, UK, 6 November 2013 14:19) So rite Ian here is some good music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cds8JMFwofk to go with it or do Serbs prefer violins.

@Balkan Anthrapologist. … Let me remind you that the Serbs will never be excepted as equals in Croatia. We will continue to treat your kind as sub-human.. I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic.
(Bam Bam, 7 November 2013 12:46)

LOL strong words from some idiot trolling from America. Like I really give a damn about what some Ustasha scum thinks. You probably listen to Ceca in your spare time anyway.

@Balkan Anthrapologist. … Let me remind you that the Serbs will never be excepted as equals in Croatia. We will continue to treat your kind as sub-human.. I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic.
(Bam Bam, 7 November 2013 12:46)

That says everything about your own personal humaneness and does nothing to dehumanise any living or dead person - if you were not born everyone would still be human, equally, you being here in our world does nothing to change that fact.

I wish you better mental health.

(Lenard, 7 November 2013 10:17)
You have to understand two things in this 21 century. First is that companies may be registered in Zagreb but the Croatian government does not own them – they are private entities that belong to shareholders. So like most backward peoples you have to stop counting them as part of state assets.
Second lesson never believe who tells you that s*** rolls up hill – it does not so your theory that Serbia was badly hurt by Croatian or Slovenia is pure Croat BS. It was world sanctions that hurt Serbia. That is the problem with Croats you think that Croatia is great – it’s not; its only that Croats are legends in their own mind.
Why you think EU asked Serbia to rethink duties on Croatian tobacco???? Because too many become unemployed and Brussels have to pour more money to stop starvation. Plenty new soup kitchen open in Croatia. Serb image fantastic – as industry is coming to Serbia but I no see Microsoft CEO going to Zagreb????
Here is my prediction; Cyrillic will prevail in Croatia and there is nothing you or any of your ustashi friends can do about it. You guys are going to wish old Yugo was back after we get through with you. This time we will tear Croatia up piece by piece.

‘So now that Croatia is past of the EU and should portray a higher standard than Serbia…'
(Croatian Canadian, 7 November 2013 15:58)

No. Croatia is part of the EU, and a part of being an EU country is to abide by and enforce EU laws, some of which safe-guard the inalienable human rights of all EU citizens. Not one Croatian citizen has to earn the right to be human.

‘You can see things the way you want to, evidently, Croatia had succeeded in becoming independant, we prevailed...svi za jedan, jedan za sve!’
(Croatian Canadian, 7 November 2013 15:58)

Yes. Croatia is today is an independent entity in its own right. It is also now an EU nation. If it is truly ‘one for all and all for one’ then safe-guarding the rights of one citizen (no matter their ethnicity, religion, etc.) is a fight for all citizens?

‘Vukovar is Croatia...deal with it!’
(Croatian Canadian, 7 November 2013 15:58)

Yes it is. It is a part of post-war Croatia, and as such, Vukovar is a part of the EU. Vukovar citizens are EU citizens also.

I don't agree with hatred, war, racism but I do believe that if tomorrow I move to Saudi Arabia, Germany or Chile...I must live as they do and not expect a priviledge because I may be a large minority. Live as those do in the country you reside in.
(Croatian Canadian, 11 November 2013 16:06)
==============================
You're right about Saudi Arabia but in Germany you would definitely get the privileges of a large minority.

It will be Germany who will whip you into shape in no time. You are under their control now.

BTW, you do agree with hatred and racism. Just read your own posts and you will see how hypocritical you are.

Balkan Anthropologist - also, I just reread this part of what you said: "Just like the Hungarians and other non-Serbs of Vojvodina. The minute I see some Obraz group destroy signs in the Latin alphabet, then we can look at what's happening in Croatia on an equal footing." - no, not even close...first have a war in Vojvodina, have innocent Serbs murdered...or lets just say a war happened and people died, lets not even blame anyone....if that had happened and then 18 years later the minority involved was asking for their language on your walls of your country where your people died...start there...tell me and please consider what I'm saying, use your mind and heart and then tell me if Serbian people would be ok with it...it would never happen, human nature is far too strong and emotions overcome politics.

‘There is no such thing as earning a right...especially after a vicious and terrible war! Both sides perceive the other as the aggressor...nobody will ever win that arguement, we'd rather die...because we are too proud...both sides! Live in Croatia, as a Croatian of Serb descent...live with the language and we can start there and hopefully you are treated with respect and kindness!’
(Croatian Canadian, 7 November 2013 23:33)

There really is no such thing as ‘earning an inalienable right’ – therefore having dual languages/scripts on signs (expressing both the majority’s and the minority’s ethnic diversity) will enable all ethnicities to be represented within the area that they live.

Who knows the act itself may enable xenophobia to not be the first thing on any citizens mind when they see ‘the other’… They hopefully will just see a library, or a school, or any other thing which actually helps their society and fellow citizens.

As for ‘we would rather die’ …
Please don’t speak for me (I am Croatian Croat by decent) …

And: ‘As a Croatian of Serb descent...live with the language and then we can start there etc.’...
Please don’t presume I want to eradicate today's Croatian language because I don’t want to eradicate today's Serbian language from present-day Croatia (I am also ‘Croatian of Serb decent’).

P.S. Thank you for wishing respect and kindness! Same to you and everyone!

"Serbs were a minority in a Croatian state, the town was and always will be recognized as a Croatian town. When people from that town decide to attempt to take it over, that is considered an act of war, traitors...regardless of if they lived there or not they had to recognize they were living in Croatia and not Serbia"
===========================

Don't forget it was Yugoslavia and Croatians decided to take over and make it Croatia. It was only Croatia as a state of Yugoslavia NOT a country of Croatia.
So it was your lot who became terrorists in Yugoslavia not Serbs. They were quite happy to be part of a country they were born into.

If you know anything about Balkan history you would know that before Yugoslavia it was Austo Hungarian Empire who held the land and Serbs liberated you and themselves from them.
Yes, It was Croatia for a minute second during WW2 but never legitimately.

Daniel - were you ever in Vukovar...did you ever learn of what happened there? Once again and just because i dont care to argue a number, saying 300 men died is very ridiculous, you may be talking about the (approximately) 255 men that were taken from the hospital in Vukovar and brought to Ovcara where they ended up murdered then buried...that was 1 incident...what about the civilians? I always do my best to acknowledge my own wrongdoings, I accept blame and fault...I dont see the point in denying the death of another human and those that do only do it in spite...with that said, no religion can help them...what happened is undebatable so if you choose to not believe, its your perogative.

I already said Jasenovac was an atrocity, I'm not proud of it but it happened...almost 70 years ago! The numbers are irrelevant...anything over 0 murdered (1 life taken is tragic) is significant, when you target a race/culture or religion its unacceptable but unfortunately that atrocity from almost 70 years ago reappeared in the 90's. Neither is worse or better, they were different but the end result is the same...ruined lives, ruined futures, destroyed families, death, misery, blame...and Daniel...its undeniable and irrefutable...Serbs murdered, raped, burn villages to the ground...IN CROATIA...lets see what you'd say if it happened in Serbia?

All Belgrade is doing is diplomatically pressuring Zagreb to resolving this issue soon otherwise Belgrade can put sanctions on Croat imports and within 4 weeks Croatia is on its back.
(sj, 6 November 2013 22:20)

Oh, OK, great... I'm relieved now. People, calm down; there is nothing to worry about. Croatia is at Serbia's mercy and will always do precisely what Serbs tell it to do.

@Croatian Canadian

What do you think I don’t understand?

We are from the same part of the world - how many generations of family loss do you think genuinely believe that I do not understand under my own skin?

How many ‘bullet/stab wounds for burial’/family and friends do I not have to visit exactly?

Both - in Catholic graveyards AND Orthodox ones?

Going back how many generations exactly?

‘It’ gets dressed it in ‘Croat’ and ‘Serb’ and ‘Muslim’ but underneath ‘it’ is the same power-cycle, of continued victimisation of more human beings.

The cycle changes a person’s view of other individual people, to an identity, to an enemy, to a target, to someone’s family being told what happened.

Cyrillic did not make that nor did Latinice, it never has been and we both know this.

When I said racism to what you were saying it was not because you are a Croat, it was because I saw the mechanics of the power-cycle that hurt everyone in our wars. I do not like most Serbian politicians for the same cycle, most Croat politicians too – they know we have all been hurt by the war and the ‘you are a victim ONLY’ cycle continues for no one’s good.

I am saying that not everyone is going to victimise on ethnic grounds - I know many like-minds that are fed up of the cycle (people from many ethnic backgrounds), but if you only talk with the ‘cycle-happy’ you will never hear anything else will you?

Either way, I gain and lose nothing from what you do.

@Ma_Stvarno = "what do you think I dont understand"?

the answer: you dont understand that this cyrillic issue isnt about WW11 or WW1...this has nothing to do with an "enemy" or "Orthodox". This has everything to do with the memory of those that were killed in Vukovar and the total lack of respect for them. Vukovar is a Croatian town that was targeted and annihlated, many of those that were involved have never been broguht to justice and still walk the streets of Vukovar freely and without consequence. Should the rest of the innocent Serb population pay the price..."NO"...but not having cyrillic on a wall is not a penalty, if they live in Croatia they surely can read the Latin aplhabet! Once people live together, once the Serb population in Vukovar openly accept the Croatian way of life, no demands, live peacefully then we can talk. Evidently it is a very sensitive topic, why expose it worse than it has to be just to satisfy a minority...a minority that is most likely innocent but their "people" were involved with atrocities.

Time will heal everything, if you really have good intentoions then you could understand the issue is sensitive and wouldnt have an issue with living without cirilica...after all, it is only used in Serbia.I want peace, harmony and love BUT right now, I think everyone neds time to let history pass...at least one or two more generations.

(Lenard, 7 November 2013 10:17)
Second lesson never believe who tells you that s*** rolls up hill – it does not
(sj, 8 November 2013 00:10)

I full agree here, unless it is sj telling that s*** rolls up hill, nobody should believe that. sj is obviously an exception, because he/she is the CE of B92 forums and therefore he/she is, by definition, always correct.

P.S. CE = Chief Economist

Peggy: you said "Again, Serbs did not invade Croatia and started murdering. Serbs were already there forever and fought for their lives and homes."

Serbs were a minority in a Croatian state, the town was and always will be recognized as a Croatian town. When people from that town decide to attempt to take it over, that is considered an act of war, traitors...regardless of if they lived there or not they had to recognize they were living in Croatia and not Serbia!

you asked "Tell us, who was there first, Serbs or Croats?" - what an ignorant question...you should take if your blinders Peggy...if it wan't Croatia then how did it end up being Croatia?

@ Ma_Stvarno - you said "Yes it is. It is a part of post-war Croatia, and as such, Vukovar is a part of the EU. Vukovar citizens are EU citizens also."

I think you're confused, what do you think Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Holland and all other European countries would do if a minority population in their country did as the Serbs in Croatia not even 18 years ago...let it go? Forget? I think you aren't realistic, you seem to think emotions and recent experience should be 2nd to politics...I disagree and so do those in Vukovar. Croatia has done what it could to satisfy the EU, they upheld all their agreements and objectives and in doing so were awarded an entry to the EU. I dont believe they should have to lose their identity to satisfy any Nation or people. Plain and simply, Serbs can live their if they wish...under Croatian rules and as croatians, if not...adios...arrivaderci...tko se sisa?

Ma_Stvarno - you said "Please don’t speak for me (I am Croatian Croat by decent)" - and you may be a Yugoslav sympathizer. A person can be born Croatian and have no idea of what it means to be Croatian. I don't agree with hatred, war, racism but I do believe that if tomorrow I move to Saudi Arabia, Germany or Chile...I must live as they do and not expect a priviledge because I may be a large minority. Live as those do in the country you reside in.

Get with the facts. Ovcara lot were overwhelmingly croatian paramilitaries and soldiers:


Appeals Chamber Judgement, 5 May 2009:
http://www.icty.org/case/mrksic/4

p.20 of pdf (or 15 on the bottom):
36. Pursuant to this jurisprudence and in light of the facts of the case, the Trial Chamber found that the victims were predominantly non-civilians.

114
Trial Judgement, para. 481. The Trial Chamber found that the evidence indicated that of the 194 persons identified
as among those alleged in the Indictment to have been murdered at Ovcara in the evening and night hours of 20/21
November 1991, 181 were known to be active in the Croatian forces in Vukovar. The Trial Chamber concluded that the
effect of the evidence was that the majority of these men (and two women) were members or reserve members of ZNG
(87) and that there was also a considerable number of members of the HV (30) and the Croatian MUP (17); there were
some members of the Croatian protection force of Vukovar (9) and a few members of the Croatian paramilitary
formation HOS (Croatian’s Liberation Forces, Hrvatske Oslobodilacke Snage); regarding the cases of nine other
victims the Trial Chamber accepted evidence of their military involvement; there were also 13 persons in respect of
whom no known military involvement was established by the evidence (Trial Judgement, para. 479).


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7017758.stm
Croatian anger at Vukovar verdict 28/9/2007

The Serbian government under General Milan Nedic worked closely with local Nazi officials in making Belgrade the first "Judenfrei" city of Europe.As late as 19 September 1943, Nedic made an official visit to Adolf Hitler , Serbs in Berlin advanced the idea that the Serbs were the "Ubermenchen" (master race) of the Slavs.

what? excuse me? sorry, I had my finger in my ear...what did you serbs say?

I suggest Serbian people read this essay and understand why Vukovar and the reluctance to allow cirilica is important to croatians:

http://descrier.co.uk/world/2013/11/alarm-bells-vukovar/

@Croatian Canadian - post: 11 November 2013 16:06...

Ethnic Serbs have been living ‘there’ (‘within the borders of what now constitutes as Croatia’) for centuries and now they also live there as Croatian nationals/EU citizens; the feelings of anyone do not change those facts. And I say ‘what constitutes’ because it has not always been under continuous control or even had continuous borders has it; indeed a lot of ethnic Croats and ethnic Serbs of the region were fighting together alongside people of every ethnicity (that lived there around the time of WW1) for the same imperial regime – or would you prefer to deny this as well on Armistice Day? If you do want to it still won’t change these facts, because facts say ‘tko te sisa’ to everyone, no matter how many sargije, tamburice or gusle you have in your family tree.

We have an ethnically mixed history in the region. It has been like this for centuries. Everyone's been hurt by someone if we go into generalities by ethnicity. If we went by feelings there would be no one left living on this planet. It is about learning to live with each other without perpetuating the past, and about living in a democratic society (flawed as the system is).

@Croatian Canadian.
As for the Yugoslav sympathizer question – I don’t know – you mentioned Yugoslav, I saw the word Croat, then Serb, then I mentioned Austro-Hungarian and the whole time I was a human being reading and writing thoughts. I'm not sure if they were Croatian thoughts though – I'll ask at the next meeting of ‘THE committee for deciding how to be a Croat’.
I hope that it doesn’t include these lessons from ‘So you're from the Balkans eee?…
1.) You are a victim of ‘them’ 1a.) Forever.
2.) ‘They’ are aggressors. 2a.) Forever.
3.) You will never surrender being a victim & look at them as being victims too (of us) – this is not being a victim (see rule 1).
3a.) I know we said we were never aggressors but we lied to you. See, you are a victim.
3b.) Back to them. Yes, even ‘their’ unborn children are aggressors. Even the ones who become future doctors that could possibly help your future children are aggressors.‘Their’ cups of coffee? Aggressors! Do not use logic. Forget rule 3a)!
4. We know that even in your family and circle of friends people are varied and different, let alone society as a whole, but within ‘them’ this does not apply – they may be human shaped, but they are aggressors in every form they take! Even the pretty ones.
4a.) Just see rule 2 and keep forgetting rule 3a! Nothing will ever override this.

There are always the few that want to drag you back into teach you a lesson; the ones you learn & practice are up to you though?

@Ma_Stvarno & Peggy- did you read the link I provided yesterday?

be truthful... you wont teach your children in schools about your mistakes and that you were the aggressors, you havent assisted in finding the missing 1000 + people but you want an equal right, in Croatia?

here is part of what she says: I remember the Serb tanks patrolling the streets, the replacement of all Croatian signs with ones in Cyrillic, and the hospital staff who celebrated the city’s “liberation” from Croatia. I remember a man vowing to kill his wife and son because she was Croatian. And I remember convoys of Serb troops passing through the area on their way into Bosnia to assist with the ethnic cleansing there. Vukovar’s Serbs surely remember these things too, and they have a civic responsibility to tell the truth about their city’s past. They are citizens of Croatia and always have been. Even before the war, Vukovar was part of the Socialist Republic of Croatia in the federation of Yugoslavia. But Vukovar’s Serbs are not acting like Croatian citizens, and this is the real sticking point.

Veteran defenders of Vukovar are rallying to defend their city and their country from a back-door attack. Cyrillic is not the issue. Even the ruling Social Democratic Party’s Vice-President, Milanka Opacic, recognised this, suggesting that un-apprehended war criminals roaming around in full sight of their victims is the real “problem”.

@Croatian Canadian
Truthfully - I find your posts bizarre. And even though it is addressed to both Peggy and me I will continue in this post to write for myself.

When making reference to the ‘ethnic Croat’ part of my human identity, there is the subtle ‘you are not doing it right/not Croat enough’ logic because I do not regurgitate the exact same views as you (the post where you allude to Yugoslav sympathies, being a Croat isn’t enough to know what it means to be Croat.)
Then when making reference to the ethnic Serbian part of my human identity, you accuse me of not being honest, about my mistakes during the war, about personally being the aggressor, and to top it off tell me that I haven’t personally helped in finding 1000+ people (post 12 November 2013 16:19 where you ask if I have read the post from yesterday (where you directly express it is to ‘Serbian people’.))

Your own words, your own racism – to our shared identity of Croat and my own equal identity as Serb – no matter which identity you are referring to, your words and treatment is warped and racist; I tried to address this earlier by pointing out the absurdity of your logic.

I am a human being – you are an irrelevancy in that fact.

And you can write every day, with your own reasons for your own racism, write every day until you die for all I care – you will never, ever stop this person from being a whole human being.

You simply do not have that power.

No one does.

Ma_Stvarno - the initial topic of this discussion is the removal of cirilica, how the Serb community are reacting and that Croatians should allow the writing.

My initial point of view regarding this topic was regarding the overall view of Croatian and why they refuse to accept cirilica. I was talking about the overall situation and found a very good point of view from an outside perspective giving their objective view.

I dont believe in war or racism but I do believe the issue amongst Serbs and Croats is very real...we should learn to live, but as neighbors, I dont think its right that Serbs...that had conspired to and did destroy that city now be appeased and given "their right" to have 'their" language while living in "the city" they destroyed. I believe the first step is for those Serbs that live their should adapt to the Croatian language, culture and traditions and if they choose to do other in their own home, thats totally fine!

here's another interesting fact: It is true that Croatia’s constitution requires bilingual signage when a minority of the population exceeds one-third, and that the 2011 census estimated the Serb population as 34.8%. However, there is considerable doubt about this statistic when the number of Serbs registered in the city (42,000) exceeds the entire population of Vukovar (27,000). It is furthermore not true that this is a European legal requirement. “decisions on the placing of bilingual signs are not regulated by European law”.

@Croatian canadian

It is not a responsibility (that goes along with having human rights) for every ethnic Serb to be accountable for the act of ‘some’ ethnic Serbs. In ‘peace-time’/now, I live in a town and crime goes on in this town, we have criminals here in the community – we share the same eye colour (me and some of the criminals); If I was brown eyed AND a criminal then lock me up, but if I am not? I automatically lose my right to use my brown eyes outside my own home because some people are brown-eyed criminals?

As for law: Croatia signed the 'European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages' so they (the govn.) have an obligation to minorities under those standards. That in combination with EU laws prohibiting discrimination within EU states, as well as Croatian law itself, is why the question of Cyrillic is about human rights in the EU.

Those same human rights are what everyone deserves. Those are the rights which will help to bring actual individual criminals to justice – prevention of discrimination is surely a peace-time version of laws against genocide after all?

And the more that racism goes unchallenged, the more chance there is that people aren't enabled to educate themselves and do better; it is part of being responsible and having human rights.

I don't agree with your racist views of my ethnicities, I don't even find them logical - but I do respect that you are human and as such, have the right to hold your own views.

@Croatian in Canada
'…and if they choose to do other in their own home, thats totally fine!’
You are Croatian in Canada:
Inside your own home you are ethnic Croat - outside of it you're the same person, made up of the same DNA and have the same ethnicity.
You cannot switch off being Croat because it is an intrinsic part of who you are as a human. It is the same for Serbs. 'In their own home' is impossible because to be ethnically anything is to be so simply by existing, from womb to grave.

War atrocities and addressing ‘the Serbs’ as a whole:
In the 1990’s, every single person of Serbian ethnicity, that was born 150 years before was dead right? For over-caution let’s say one million.

One million Serbs definitely did not commit war crimes in Vukovar.

http://www.serbianunity.com/serbianunitycongress/statistic

They provide numbers at around 12 million ethnically Serb people on the planet - let’s shave off one million for back in the 90’s. Can Vukovar hold 11 million people? No.

It is impossible that ‘the Serbian people’ – all the supposed 12 million (one million dead, 11 million alive) – committed the crimes in Vukovar.
Does that mean nothing happened in Vukovar – obviously not – but it does mean that the majority of Serbs are simply not guilty of war crimes just because they are Serbs.

That's why I think your views of ‘the Serbs’ as a whole are warped and racist because of this foundation of distortion, but you have that right.

@Ma_Stvarno - either I am not expressing myself clesrly or you are not understanding things clearly... there seems to be a BIG confusion here.

"inside your own home" comment: Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Holland, France, Italy and many other countries would not tolerate a minority disrespecting the laws their own country sets. If you are a croat or Serb in Sweden, be one in your home but respect Swedish laws, language and social services.

With regards to Serbs being guilty. This is a very simple thing to grasp...those that live in cities in Serbia and all over the world...that live peacefully and by the law...God Bless Them! Those that lived in Slavonija or other parts of Croatia as ethnic Serbs in the Republic of Croatia for decades upon decades...and then took arms, weapons, conspired to overthrow Croatian authority for the goal of a greater Serbia, those are not welcome!

Betrayal, if I live in Germany as an ethnic Frenchman and France attacks Germany...I must, as a citizen that accepts the benefits of living in Germany fight for Germany! If not, I am considered a traitor! Who's side did the minority Serbs join?

Serbs (the majority) are good people, just as Croats, Slovenes, Italians and so on!

Mexicans in Southern Texas are viewed poorly because they refuse to accept the American way...ie language, traditions and so on...Mexicans reap the rewards of living in the US...this is a huge problem for Americans that is discussed daily in America!

'Those that lived in Slavonija or other parts of Croatia as ethnic Serbs in the Republic of Croatia for decades upon decades...and then took arms, weapons, conspired to overthrow Croatian authority for the goal of a greater Serbia, those are not welcome!'

One: you cannot live ‘as’ an ethnic person – you are ethnically something, it isn’t something outside of what you are that you can pick up or put down.
Two: you are talking about individuals and simultaneously a whole ethnic group. I am not judging the whole of Croatian ethnicity on your racism. No. I am simply saying that you are racist, - you as an individual.

Three: What about the ones which were infirm at the time? I am going to infer that there was at least one that was in a coma, a good few were to young/too ill to fight, and some were being born - they need to go on trial to be welcome in their own country as well?

Racism!

‘Betrayal, Who's side did the minority Serbs join?’
I do not know every individual Serb just because I am ethnically Serb: why are you asking me? Oh yes, because you’re racist.
Why aren’t you asking me about what every single ethnic Croat did during the war – we share the same Christmas/Easter friend.

‘Mexicans in Southern Texas…...discussed daily in America!’
What is your point? Some people in the world are as racist as you? I know this already.

Bring something other than racism to the discussion - remember Croatia deserves better than racism!

@Croatian Canadian.

‘@Ma_Stvarno - either I am not expressing myself clesrly or you are not understanding things clearly... there seems to be a BIG confusion here.’

No confusion: you are racist.

If you are a citizen of Croatia, it is then ‘your country’ – this INCLUDES every single ethnic Serb person with Croatian citizenship; it is ‘their’ country as much as it is every single ethnically Croat individual’s country.

The law says it is 'their' country equally, based on citizenship – not on ethnicity. But you are so racist you cannot see that they are two different things.

What I said was: War atrocities and addressing ‘the Serbs’ as a whole

What you said: With regards to Serbs being guilty.

You are racist. And you put in into practice inside your thoughts, inside your beliefs and inside the words you expunge into the world.

Then you have the audacity to start saying things about a group of human beings, about how the whole group MUST lose their rights because of the actions of some of them.

According to your own logic, you don’t ‘deserve’ Croatia and Croatia doesn’t ‘deserve’ you - by being racist in action towards humans(as discussed previously in detail) you are not acting within the law of, Croatia, Canada, the EU, most of the world. So really, it isn't just Croatia that doesn't deserve you - it is the world.

And yet gravity still holds you down. Astounding the way being a human being works isn't it.

I'm not surprised you scream racism just as Jews scream anti semitism when the world asks them to explain their poor actions!

It's virtually impossible to explain things to a stubborn and uneducated Serb such as you are, you still think the western world is wrong as to why they imprison your criminals, why the world doesn't respect Serb politics and also the reason as to why you collaborate with Russia...that says a lot about you and racists, human rights mad primitive people. I did my best to explain but it's obvious you are lacking in common sense and dignity!

You've restored my opinion on Serbs after years of letting it go...great job and thanks for teaching me a dog is always a dog!

Totaly laughable much to do about nothing when in the country of Croatia be like Croatians. If you want Serbia just south cross the Danube River you can get as much as you want.

She stated concern about the Serb minority's position and safety in Vukovar, but also added she hoped Croatia, as a member of the EU, would uphold the EU standards and its own law.

"Denying the right to their own language to the Serb community is not the solution to the escalated tension in Vukovar. On the contrary, the act increases the feeling of insecurity among the Serbs in the town," Drašković stressed.

-----

I'll tell you with this is a load of rubbish, because Croatian and Serbian are the same language; the language is Serbo-Croatian.

The so called "Croatian Language" and "Serbian Language" are just dialects of the same language which use different alphabets. However the so called "Serbian Language" uses both sets of Alphabets/ Scripts these days anyway. So the Serbs of Vukovar are not being denied anything in their own language as it is all available in Serbo-Croatian in the Latin Script.

This is just another example of Serbs trying to portray themselves as "victims" again. Change the bloody record!

Now have the so called "Bosnian Language" and "Montenegrin Language". Which language will be invented next?

This is what happens when a city that has a Croatian history is attacked, brutalized and then those that were involved in the horific acts move back in as if nothing ever happened. Vukovar's was part of the Kingdom of Croatia in the 11th century and before that it was still part of modern day Slavonija.

In 1991, approximately 2000 civilians defended Vukovar for 87 days against the JNA army comprised of Serbs and Cetniks...36,000 troops supplemented with 110 vehicles and tanks and dozens of planes...we defended with primitive weapons and the town of Vukovar was brutalized and compared to WWII Stalingrad...all of this was from the hands of Serbs!

Think about it people, be realistic and consider the situation. Serbs collaborated and destroyed a city, killed over 2000 innocent people, not a single building was left standing and today, you expect Croatians in Croatia to put up a sign in cirilica while you know how to read in Latin, why? To satisfy yourself?

Serbs are responsible for brutalizing that town, there isnt a question about it....why would you expect people to forget that since the majority of those that live there lost a family member from Serb hands!

Considering and let me mention everything that Serbs done to Vukovar city and People who have lived here in Vukovar it would be fair for you Serbs to shut up and pray to God for forgiveness! Croatian Vukovar city has been multiethnic community theta lived in peace, only until that day you have counted it in to your plans of "Greater Serbia". Hate towards Croatia helped you Serbs grow to never before remembered heights of violence, hunger for blood, killing, "I try to guess what for". More than 15,000 (Fifteen THOUSAND!) Croats were murdered in areas occupied by you Serbs as in Vukovar…, and more than 4000 are still missing. I wonder IF AMERICANS WOULD EVER GIVE ANY RIGHTS TO BIN LADEN AND HIS FOLLOWERS.

She stated concern about the Serb minority's position and safety in Vukovar, but also added she hoped Croatia, as a member of the EU, would uphold the EU standards and its own law.

"Denying the right to their own language to the Serb community is not the solution to the escalated tension in Vukovar. On the contrary, the act increases the feeling of insecurity among the Serbs in the town," Drašković stressed.

-----

I'll tell you with this is a load of rubbish, because Croatian and Serbian are the same language; the language is Serbo-Croatian.

The so called "Croatian Language" and "Serbian Language" are just dialects of the same language which use different alphabets. However the so called "Serbian Language" uses both sets of Alphabets/ Scripts these days anyway. So the Serbs of Vukovar are not being denied anything in their own language as it is all available in Serbo-Croatian in the Latin Script.

This is just another example of Serbs trying to portray themselves as "victims" again. Change the bloody record!

Now have the so called "Bosnian Language" and "Montenegrin Language". Which language will be invented next?

This is just another example of Serbs trying to portray themselves as "victims" again. Change the bloody record!

Ian, why are you blaming the Serbs for this? This has everything to do with the fact of respecting minorities in Vukovar. I agree whole heartedly that it's the same language....Does that mean that Croations have to behave violently?? Knowing their combined pasts, who does this help?? NO ONE.. Your distaste for Serbs and Serbia is obvious...who knows maybe there's some truth to the victimization of Serbs and Serbia, certainly the demonization by the media (especially Ruder Finn)of the Serbs has clearly made an impression on you.

"She stated concern about the Serb minority's position and safety in Vukovar".

What about the concern of the 264 Croats who were marched from Vukovar hospital to Ovcare and killed in cold blood, where was there safety for those people. You fools keep mentioning Jasenovac but are reluctant to mention Serbian General Milan NEDIC's activities during that time. You people know nothing about Balkan history or a reluctant to hear the truth. You can have your cirilica but not in Vukovar. I ask you people for the final time "What do you want in Croatia, it's not your home, go to Serbia and be happy" for heavens sake !

Croatia should be boted out of EU for its racist behavior towards Serbian comunity who live in croatia, EU must put a stop to racisim in EU.

Serbs are returning to vukovar and serbs in vukovar are hitting the 50% mark and krajina serbs are going to become majority soon ...the census showed 200,000 Serbs but they also said that 100,000 Serbs didn't take the census. I think like many think krajina should have full autonomy or even independence because those lands were never part of Croatia and just like Istria and Dalmatia should also separate since those lands were Italian lands and never Croatian also, those lands were given to Yugoslavia and since there is no Yugoslavia Italy has the right to take their lands back legally just like the Serbs do with krajina ....from what I have read Croatia was only Zagreb in history and the surroundings of the city and that's it......

Well, what can I say? Croatia is a "discriminatory" country, and one of the most blissfully racist countries I've ever been in. Typical for a people and a mentality that needs to come out of the 1990s. Their cities outside Zagreb and the Dalmatian tourist belt are graying, emptying, and dying and yet the one thing to obsess over is the use of an alphabet. Tudjman must be proud of his little sheeple.

Za dom Stupefy! :)

only in croatia, the third reich functioned quite well in letting the croatians eliminiating serbs , and now the fourth reich is well and healthy functioning under the EU, sorry Germany, in continuing this vision of elimination of the serbian proper population

@ lenard your a bosanac so don't worry about Serbs in krajina.....

This is just another example of Serbs trying to portray themselves as "victims" again. Change the bloody record!

(Ian, UK, 6 November 2013 14:19) So rite Ian here is some good music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cds8JMFwofk to go with it or do Serbs prefer violins.

Serbs are responsible for brutalizing that town, there isnt a question about it....why would you expect people to forget that since the majority of those that live there lost a family member from Serb hands!
(Croatian Canadian, 6 November 2013 16:41)

Croatia is part of EU and should try make their country multi-cultural. But because of idiots like you that will never happen. Don't act you croats didn't kill serbs, we are still waiting for you to beg for forgiveness for slaughtering our people in your death camps in WW2. Second, your lucky Croatia is even a country, because if it were not part of Yugoslavia, Italy would have take over all of that land. When tito died, Croatia was becoming very nationalistic and it was just matter of time with western countries backing it that there would be a war.

All Belgrade is doing is diplomatically pressuring Zagreb to resolving this issue soon otherwise Belgrade can put sanctions on Croat imports and within 4 weeks Croatia is on its back.
As far Bosnian or Montenegrin languages are concerned that is the doing of the UK and US because they created so don’t try and lay it at someone else’s’ doorstep.
(sj, 6 November 2013 22:20) Are the Serbs that dance we resolved the issue no to Serbian chicken scratch. As for sanctions Serbia put on Croatian and Slovenians products 100% duties in the 1990's for a hole decade. The one that got hurt badly is Serbia it is still trying to recover from its inbred pure stupidity. I love the Serbs as usual using dumb arguments we had to do the worst criminalety. To bring to Serbs/Serbia infamous notoriety in to the new century. When the world thinks of Serbs that is what they think of them. A great PR image Serbs created for them selfs without even thinking. That is paying dividens to Serbia for decades to come like a bad odour. Sure we can also use that dumb lame excuse like Serbs in the next go around also.

(Lenard, 7 November 2013 10:17)
You have to understand two things in this 21 century. First is that companies may be registered in Zagreb but the Croatian government does not own them – they are private entities that belong to shareholders. So like most backward peoples you have to stop counting them as part of state assets.
Second lesson never believe who tells you that s*** rolls up hill – it does not so your theory that Serbia was badly hurt by Croatian or Slovenia is pure Croat BS. It was world sanctions that hurt Serbia. That is the problem with Croats you think that Croatia is great – it’s not; its only that Croats are legends in their own mind.
Why you think EU asked Serbia to rethink duties on Croatian tobacco???? Because too many become unemployed and Brussels have to pour more money to stop starvation. Plenty new soup kitchen open in Croatia. Serb image fantastic – as industry is coming to Serbia but I no see Microsoft CEO going to Zagreb????
Here is my prediction; Cyrillic will prevail in Croatia and there is nothing you or any of your ustashi friends can do about it. You guys are going to wish old Yugo was back after we get through with you. This time we will tear Croatia up piece by piece.

(Ian, UK, 6 November 2013 14:19)

Once again you have no idea what you’re talking about. The Latin Script was forced on Serbs by after 1945 to make one happy family called Yugoslavia. It was never part of Serbian history culture or literature. In fact we have a posting earlier this week showing the airport at Zagreb in 1932 and the words Zagreb written in Cyrillic.
As far as “Serbs trying to portray themselves as victims”, its only Croats making themselves look like prize jackasses in front to the world community and Brussels especially. In late 2013 the word Croatia is not a very pleasant word in the halls of power in Brussels. Regardless we will get Cyrllic in Croatia no matter what happens, but I’m loving this Croat behaviour as it only entrenches the fact that Serbs had to take up arms in Croatia because it’s a fascists state.
All Belgrade is doing is diplomatically pressuring Zagreb to resolving this issue soon otherwise Belgrade can put sanctions on Croat imports and within 4 weeks Croatia is on its back.
As far Bosnian or Montenegrin languages are concerned that is the doing of the UK and US because they created so don’t try and lay it at someone else’s’ doorstep.

@ (the truth)...you said: "Croatia is part of EU and should try make their country multi-cultural. But because of idiots like you that will never happen. Don't act you croats didn't kill serbs"

So now that Croatia is past of the EU and should portray a higher standard than Serbia...and you fools van just continue being as primitive as always? You bring up Jasenonac as if you won't be satisfied until its even. What is your explanation for Serbs destroying Vukovar, for entering Slovenia, for bombing Dubrovnik...who was being attacked in those cities that caused your people to attack peaceful people. Tell me, what exactly did Croatia do other than declare independance that caused the war? What did my family in Slavonija do that caused you to attack them, bomb the cities? The rest of Europe was peacefully removing communism from their system, we first wanted autonomy and were denied...Milosevic was openly "Riding the wave of nationalism"...Serbs in Krajina declared that they would secede from Croatia and then Croatian Serbs also formed the SAO Western Slavonia and the SAO of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srijem.

You can see things the way you want to, evidently, Croatia had succeeded in becoming independant, we prevailed...svi za jedan, jedan za sve!

Today Vukovar is Croatia, its a symbolic place...and as I had mentioned yesterday...2000 self organized civilians with primitive weapons defended against 36,000 Serb troops! Vukovar is Croatia...deal with it!

Interesting country, this Croatia. Here, a town can make its own laws which contradict state laws?

Putin on Minority Rights:

"In Russia live Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer their Law, then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Russia does not need minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'. We better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of most minorities. When this honorable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the national interest first, observing that the minorities are not Russians."

I'll tell you with this is a load of rubbish, because Croatian and Serbian are the same language; the language is Serbo-Croatian
=================================
Would you be willing to go to Zagreb and tell them that?

So what would be wrong in using Cyrillic then? All the same so there should be no problem.

@Mario-Interesting that Croatia and Albania are those that made Greater Croatia and Albania on its way to make Greater Albania, but all the time lying about Serb wanting Greater Serbia. By the way, Serbia just wanted to live in peace, but others wanted the war. Enough of this garbage, by now, you got what you wanted, what else is there that you want? Talking about murderer past, think about what Croats did to Serbs in WW2. Were the Serbs sepose to wait for Croats to repeat Jasenovac again without even trying to protect themselves this time. I am sure that those who lost the family member on both sides are angry, don't you think?

It is funny how croats see themselves. Funny because civilised nations think of them as "fake austrians" or "fake germans".

Anyway - serbs have to leave their homes in croatia and return to serbia, albanians have to leave kosovo and return to albania.

Bam Bam said, "Let me remind you that the Serbs will never be excepted as equals in Croatia. We will continue to treat your kind as sub-human.. I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic."

You are a fine example of all things Croatian. You represent Croatia very well.

The EU is a joke. Here in Brussels it doesn't bother them the slightest that it is obvious that what they demand and what they accept are two entirely different things.

On the upside, corruption is everywhere as a senior tory UK MP offered to use his contacts for business (invest 10mill in Albanian and he knows everyone important there):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10429206/Senior-Conservative-MP-uses-political-contacts-to-further-business-empire.html

"...The MP suggested that the undercover reporter, posing as a foreign businessman, should invest £10 million in a group of boutique hotels in Albania. Mr Pritchard was formerly the chairman of the all party parliamentary group (APPG) for the country and is still a member of the committee. .... He asked to be paid £3,000 a month for his consultancy services, as well as 3 per cent of any deal — meaning he could have received more than £300,000 to secure the investment in Albania.

Speaking about his contacts in the country, he said: “To be completely brutal, I know the mayor, I know the prime minister, I know the speaker....Mr Pritchard visited Tirana, the capital of Albania, in 2010, but told the undercover reporter that he was in regular contact with senior politicians, even sending a text message to the mayor of Tirana during one of the meetings to discover what kind of investment the authorities were interested in securing...."

These excuses for Croatia's racism are laughable. So because they were "victims" they have justification for acting like racist biggots? So this is "Croatia" and its people should "speak Croatian or get out"? LOL

By that logic, Serbia should not only legalize Cyrillic as the only alphabet, but force all Croats and other non-Serbs to use Cyrillic, or get out.

For all those nationalist expats trolling here in Croatia's defense bemoaning the latent and endemic racism that permeates Serbia and the Serbian people, time and reality calls for your country to be modern, civilized, and tolerant. Not my fault you associate an alphabet with the embarrassing wars of the 1990s and justification for defending your "Domovina" against a threat that is as imagined as it is inanimate. not my fault Cyrillic reminds you of a people that rose up against the second-class citizenship status your "Doctor" Tudjman gave them in that Croatian constitution that looked like it was written by the children of Croatian expats in Chicago.

Because if we're going to use victimhood and outside aggression as an excuse for defensive nationalism, Jasenovac and the NDH negates anything you shed tears over regarding Vukovar and by the same extension, the Latin alphabet should be banned in all places Serbs live because it serves as a reminder of what happened to them in the 1940s.

If you think that's a ridiculous reason or you feel that's "in the past", then so is the 1990s.

Za dom stupefy!

The so called "Croatian Language" and "Serbian Language" are just dialects of the same language which use different alphabets.
(Ian, UK, 6 November 2013 14:19)

Yes Ian, so why then are you bent out of shape another alphabet is being used? If it's the same language, it shouldn't be a problem. Cyrillic was used in Hapsburg Croatia, and it was used in Yugoslav Croatia. So why shouldn't it be used in Tudjman's Croatia? Excuse you for Serbs for using an alphabet in a place you suddenly feel less tolerant and open minded about.

Balkan Anthropologist - also, I just reread this part of what you said: "Just like the Hungarians and other non-Serbs of Vojvodina. The minute I see some Obraz group destroy signs in the Latin alphabet, then we can look at what's happening in Croatia on an equal footing." - no, not even close...first have a war in Vojvodina, have innocent Serbs murdered...or lets just say a war happened and people died, lets not even blame anyone....if that had happened and then 18 years later the minority involved was asking for their language on your walls of your country where your people died...start there...tell me and please consider what I'm saying, use your mind and heart and then tell me if Serbian people would be ok with it...it would never happen, human nature is far too strong and emotions overcome politics.

Daniel - were you ever in Vukovar...did you ever learn of what happened there? Once again and just because i dont care to argue a number, saying 300 men died is very ridiculous, you may be talking about the (approximately) 255 men that were taken from the hospital in Vukovar and brought to Ovcara where they ended up murdered then buried...that was 1 incident...what about the civilians? I always do my best to acknowledge my own wrongdoings, I accept blame and fault...I dont see the point in denying the death of another human and those that do only do it in spite...with that said, no religion can help them...what happened is undebatable so if you choose to not believe, its your perogative.

I already said Jasenovac was an atrocity, I'm not proud of it but it happened...almost 70 years ago! The numbers are irrelevant...anything over 0 murdered (1 life taken is tragic) is significant, when you target a race/culture or religion its unacceptable but unfortunately that atrocity from almost 70 years ago reappeared in the 90's. Neither is worse or better, they were different but the end result is the same...ruined lives, ruined futures, destroyed families, death, misery, blame...and Daniel...its undeniable and irrefutable...Serbs murdered, raped, burn villages to the ground...IN CROATIA...lets see what you'd say if it happened in Serbia?

The official languages are BCS - Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, as recognized within the EU institutions. That's what you have to put on your CV/Resume, so someone who speaks serbo-croat can count all the additional languages. What the EU says, goes, how ever bigger BS it is. It's been going on for years and only fools haven't noticed.

When it comes to official translation or even interpretation for the EU, my close contacts tell me it can be the same person translating these 'different' languages. All that is required is a change of cabin or sign in the cabin. There is simply no money any more to splash out on translators/interpreters for each small country and hasn't been for quite a while.

The bad news for EU translators and interpreters is that the once plentiful food and drink has been severely curtailed. On one one occasion van Rompuy insisted on continuing a session throughout the night, pissing everyone off and particularly the interpreters who didn't have a proper break and were offered a few stale croissants to fight over for breakfast whilst the diplomats tucked in. It's not just rotten in Denmark....

Ian, Uk.
You seem to be missing a point here. There use to be "Serbo-Croatian" or "Croato-Serbian" (which ever way you wanted to call it) and both dialects were fine, and use of both alphabets. Croats complained they were oppressed in Yugoslavia.
But Croats insisted their language is "Croatian" (and you are right there are "Bosnian" and "Montenegrine" on their insistance) and in 1990 banned use of Serbian dialect and alphabet. Tudjman removed all billingual plaques everywhere, banned cyrillic newspapers, etc.
Speaker of the house led mob in Zadar to burn Serbian houses (May 2nd 1991 - first burnt houses in Yugoslavia).
Vukovar, Mario?
Perhaps you should have listen to Josip Reihl-Kir when he was trying to stop outbreak of war there, instead of killing him. Perhaps your MINISTERS shouldn't have fired those rockets into Borovo Village. Perhaps you shouldn't have (like in other Croatian cities) kill Serbs and blow their houses and businesses?
Is this not Croatian newspaper article dated Dec 5th 2002 that gives accurate account of life in Vukovar before the battle began?

http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral193.html

But, Mario, Putin may be right. I think that Serbia should ban "Croatian" language and use of Roman Alphabet in Serbia, too, then. There is no reason that more then 70,000 Croats, mostly in Belgrade and Vojvodina , don't speak "ekavski" and write Cyrillic. Agree?

Balkan Anthropologist - I'm really not trying to be a smart ass when I say this but maybe you can teach a few Serbs some lessons on history...you said "Serbs have lived in Croatia for more than 300 years" - well at least you have the decency to admit that, many here believe Croatia has just appeared since the 90's and that we've never existed as a people/nation before that. I've read about this for years and have concluded the history from 6 century but really pronounced in 7th. Regardless...I really dont want to go back...I want to move forward.

you said: "Don't know where you think I'm trivializing a number someone else referenced"...and then that "only 246 people died"...do you see how that can be perceived as a very derogatory and strong portrayal of disrespect? If I said the prisoners in Jasenovac primarily died because nobody had food during those days and really, only 30,000 died, you'd say I was provoking you...right? But in your comment, you say thats fact? I wont get into it more, you are touching on a very sensitive topic that still hurts many people...no different than Jasenovac!

There is no such thing as earning a right...especially after a vicious and terrible war! Both sides perceive the other as the aggressor...nobody will ever win that arguement, we'd rather die...because we are too proud...both sides! Live in Croatia, as a Croatian of Serb descent...live with the language and we can start there and hopefully you are treated with respect and kindness!

All Belgrade is doing is diplomatically pressuring Zagreb to resolving this issue soon otherwise Belgrade can put sanctions on Croat imports and within 4 weeks Croatia is on its back.
(sj, 6 November 2013 22:20)

Oh, OK, great... I'm relieved now. People, calm down; there is nothing to worry about. Croatia is at Serbia's mercy and will always do precisely what Serbs tell it to do.

'Now have the so called "Bosnian Language" and "Montenegrin Language". Which language will be invented next?'
(Ian, UK)

I agree with you in principle, Ian. A different alphabet does not a different language make. Alphabets are more cultural than linguistic, or in this case it is steeped in religious differences, ie, two aspects of the same religion.

When the English switched from using the Runic alphabet to the Latin one the language did not change at all; nor did it when the Turks, after World War One, switched from Arabic to Latin symbols.

The absurdity of claiming that Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and even Montenegrin are separate languages typifies the mentality in that part of the world, though you may or may not like to know that I have rarely met a Serb who thinks he/she speaks a different language from Croats, Bosnians or Montenegrins. I know quite a few Croats, too, who think it's all absurd. Only some in those latter groups tend to make such ridiculous claims.

There's nothing wrong in calling the same language by different names according to nationality, as do the Dutch and the Flemish of Northern and Western Belgium. Most do NOT do this, ie, English, French and Spanish speaking nations. There's a lot wrong, however, in claiming that the they are separate languages that require subtitles, translators, etc. It's embarrassing!

"I ask you people for the final time "What do you want in Croatia, it's not your home, go to Serbia and be happy" for heavens sake!"

So - within what now constitutes as Croatia - Serbian Orthodox churches were built by Croatian Catholic human beings 550+ years ago?

As for 'victim status' and arguing over which sides families unwillingly poured the most blood into the most graves - really how far does this one sided ownership of simply being human extend? 'Our dead are more dead than your dead' is perhaps a better way to understand that arguments significance?

The most worrying aspect of this decision relates to how it came about, not its content. I accept that it is a controversial decision in its own right but it is another example of bending to the will of the mob, as with the decision not to secure the pride parade in Belgrade. Sometimes the majority are wrong and it is not undemocratic to point this out to them. Voters have a chance every few years to vote for those that they believe will best represent their overall interests. They then have to let them get on with the job rather than taking to the streets every time something happens that they don't like. This applies just as much to Turkey, Brazil, Egypt and elsewhere. When democracy itself is threatened then it is time to act and Mursi discovered this to his cost but countries, regions and towns cannot function effectively if thugs on the street are trying to run the show rather than elected representatives.

I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic.
(Bam Bam, 7 November 2013 12:46)

Actually, I have to respond to this again because it's so hilarious. I tried reading through what passed as your "comment" before, but I kept laughing. So you first get upset because people died in Vukovar - 264 to be exact. Then you get pissed because Jasenovac was referenced - I know, a sore point for you - and then you try to give a pathetic counterargument by dropping Milan Nedic's name. Ok, what did he do? And how many Serbs today glorify him? How many death camps did he set up? Are you that dumb to think Nedic, some irrelevant Quisling, is worse than Pavelic, the head of a government that set up its own death camps?

If you're going to lecture about Balkan history, anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows Serbs rejected Nedic and resisted both the Nazis and your collaborating grandparents through the Chetniks or Partisans.

So you try to deny the crimes committed by Croats and put blame on Serbs. But you then get pissed because you're reminded of Croatia's own past you threaten to do more than Jasenovac ever did if given the opportunity?

You kid, are quite possibly the biggest idiot to ever troll on B92. Not only are you grotesquely ignorant of the facts you claim to know, but it's never good to threaten genocide when you're trying to come off as morally superior. And trolling from America just makes you sound more ridiculously impotent.

@Balkan Anthrapologist. … Let me remind you that the Serbs will never be excepted as equals in Croatia. We will continue to treat your kind as sub-human.. I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic.
(Bam Bam, 7 November 2013 12:46)

Son, I can see that you and that Ian feller need Jesus real bad. Yall need to wake up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF6K-Iiqshg

@Balkan Anthropologist...you are obviously a Pametnjakovic!

you said: "So you first get upset because people died in Vukovar - 264 to be exact" - You trying to be funny at the expense of the dead? When you are insincere and insensitive to those were killed, how do you ever expect anyone to extend any "olive branch"? Do you now see why we dont want you, dont accept you and dont want anything to do with your people and language? The interesting thing about this topic is this, we are talking abour Serbs living in Croatia...not Croats in Serbia! When do Croats ever demand anything in Serbia...when have they attempted to collaborate and secede from any part of Serbia...Serbian land or a Serbian town...never?!?!

You dont seem to grasp a very important detail, if I move into your neighborhood/community...I cant change your traditions, language, laws and/or just decide I want that community as my own...it doesnt work that way. Do you see how it feels in Kosovo? What music would you like to dance to tomorrow, one day you want it this way and the next you want to change that tune!

"264 to be exact" - I've never denied Jasenovac never happened, the number of those that died is important but vary depending on who you ask...I dont have the knowledge either way to say...but I will say that any number is unacceptable. With that said, those days are way over and lessons must be learned, Serbia has definitely been the aggressor so until you learn to admit, we will never move forward!

you said: "So you first get upset because people died in Vukovar - 264 to be exact" - You trying to be funny at the expense of the dead?
(Croatian Canadian, 7 November 2013 17:23)

No, I'm responding to an idiot who sheds political tears for one group of people and doesn't blink an eye advocating systematic genocide for another. Read the rest of my post.

As far as "moving in", Serbs have lived in Croatia for more than 300 years. I'd like to think they'e earned the right to their alphabet and language.

Just like the Hungarians and other non-Serbs of Vojvodina. The minute I see some Obraz group destroy signs in the Latin alphabet, then we can look at what's happening in Croatia on an equal footing.

I'e never denied Vukovar either. Don't know where you think I'm trivializing a number someone else referenced. Thank goodness we at least agree on the banality of ethnic war and ethnic cleansing.

In my opinion, lurid is absence of any sanctions to Croatia by the EU, no condemnation of this outrageous behavior. What should we expect - that every town where Serbs make up a third of the population declare as cities special reverence?

I wont get into it more, you are touching on a very sensitive topic that still hurts many people...no different than Jasenovac!

There is a huge difference between Vukovar and Jasenovac. First Jasenovac was a concentration camp where over half a million innocent civilians were brutally murdered whereas in Vukovar merely 300 were killed and those were only men. 2 you croats were the only ones that had a concentration camp for Children in Jasenovac and you want to compare this with Vukovar?Really?Last but not least even today 70 yrs after ww2 you croats celebrate Jasenovac every year in Cavoglave where hundreds of thousands of croat fasists gather to listen to Thompson and his songs that celebrates this genocide.

(Lenard, 7 November 2013 10:17)
Second lesson never believe who tells you that s*** rolls up hill – it does not
(sj, 8 November 2013 00:10)

I full agree here, unless it is sj telling that s*** rolls up hill, nobody should believe that. sj is obviously an exception, because he/she is the CE of B92 forums and therefore he/she is, by definition, always correct.

P.S. CE = Chief Economist

Serbs murdered, raped, burn villages to the ground...IN CROATIA...lets see what you'd say if it happened in Serbia?
(Croatian Canadian, 8 November 2013 17:08)
===========================
You're making it sound as though Serbia attacked Croatia and did this. Don't forget that Serbs in Croatia (this land has been their home for centuries, well before Croatia was ever a country) had all this done to them by Croatians so it was happening to both by both. The difference being is that Serbs were on THEIR land and did not invade anyone while Croats who were also on their land started the whole thing by bringing out their Nazi symbols and hatred and taking away all their rights. Serbs had no choice but to fight for their lives.

You Croatians always come up with that garbage how it was Serbs who came to Croatia to murder not the other way around but you conveniently forget who were the Serbs who fought and the fact that no Croat was killed in Serbia as a result of any hatred.

Again, Serbs did not invade Croatia and started murdering. Serbs were already there forever and fought for their lives and homes.

What should we expect - that every town where Serbs make up a third of the population declare as cities special reverence?
(Hurem, 8 November 2013 03:22)
=======================
You really don't get it.
Serbs DID NOT emigrate to any of those areas. Serbs have been on that land forever. It IS THEIR LAND and always has been. Don't treat it as Croatia was there, Serbs emigrated there from Serbia a few decades ago, became a substantial number and wanted special treatment.
The fact that the border changed forcibly and violently doesn't make it any less Serb land. Tell us, who was there first, Serbs or Croats? Can you answer that? When did the Serbs appear there and when did Croats appear there?

So Serbs cannot be ignored or chased off.

Serbs murdered, raped, burn villages to the ground...IN CROATIA...lets see what you'd say if it happened in Serbia?
(Croatian Canadian, 8 November 2013 17:08)

So what?You did the same or are you saying that you croats didnt murder, rape and burn serb civilianas and serb villages in Croatia?

Peggy: you said "Again, Serbs did not invade Croatia and started murdering. Serbs were already there forever and fought for their lives and homes."

Serbs were a minority in a Croatian state, the town was and always will be recognized as a Croatian town. When people from that town decide to attempt to take it over, that is considered an act of war, traitors...regardless of if they lived there or not they had to recognize they were living in Croatia and not Serbia!

you asked "Tell us, who was there first, Serbs or Croats?" - what an ignorant question...you should take if your blinders Peggy...if it wan't Croatia then how did it end up being Croatia?

@ Ma_Stvarno - you said "Yes it is. It is a part of post-war Croatia, and as such, Vukovar is a part of the EU. Vukovar citizens are EU citizens also."

I think you're confused, what do you think Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Holland and all other European countries would do if a minority population in their country did as the Serbs in Croatia not even 18 years ago...let it go? Forget? I think you aren't realistic, you seem to think emotions and recent experience should be 2nd to politics...I disagree and so do those in Vukovar. Croatia has done what it could to satisfy the EU, they upheld all their agreements and objectives and in doing so were awarded an entry to the EU. I dont believe they should have to lose their identity to satisfy any Nation or people. Plain and simply, Serbs can live their if they wish...under Croatian rules and as croatians, if not...adios...arrivaderci...tko se sisa?

Ma_Stvarno - you said "Please don’t speak for me (I am Croatian Croat by decent)" - and you may be a Yugoslav sympathizer. A person can be born Croatian and have no idea of what it means to be Croatian. I don't agree with hatred, war, racism but I do believe that if tomorrow I move to Saudi Arabia, Germany or Chile...I must live as they do and not expect a priviledge because I may be a large minority. Live as those do in the country you reside in.

@Balkan Anthrapologist. … Let me remind you that the Serbs will never be excepted as equals in Croatia. We will continue to treat your kind as sub-human.. I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic.
(Bam Bam, 7 November 2013 12:46)

LOL strong words from some idiot trolling from America. Like I really give a damn about what some Ustasha scum thinks. You probably listen to Ceca in your spare time anyway.

@Balkan Anthrapologist. … Let me remind you that the Serbs will never be excepted as equals in Croatia. We will continue to treat your kind as sub-human.. I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic.
(Bam Bam, 7 November 2013 12:46)

That says everything about your own personal humaneness and does nothing to dehumanise any living or dead person - if you were not born everyone would still be human, equally, you being here in our world does nothing to change that fact.

I wish you better mental health.

I wish I had the keys to hotel Jasenovac cause I would make 1941 look like a picnic.
(Bam Bam, 7 November 2013 12:46)

I wish I had the key to your heart, so when I open it I can find all the love and tenderness buried there.

‘So now that Croatia is past of the EU and should portray a higher standard than Serbia…'
(Croatian Canadian, 7 November 2013 15:58)

No. Croatia is part of the EU, and a part of being an EU country is to abide by and enforce EU laws, some of which safe-guard the inalienable human rights of all EU citizens. Not one Croatian citizen has to earn the right to be human.

‘You can see things the way you want to, evidently, Croatia had succeeded in becoming independant, we prevailed...svi za jedan, jedan za sve!’
(Croatian Canadian, 7 November 2013 15:58)

Yes. Croatia is today is an independent entity in its own right. It is also now an EU nation. If it is truly ‘one for all and all for one’ then safe-guarding the rights of one citizen (no matter their ethnicity, religion, etc.) is a fight for all citizens?

‘Vukovar is Croatia...deal with it!’
(Croatian Canadian, 7 November 2013 15:58)

Yes it is. It is a part of post-war Croatia, and as such, Vukovar is a part of the EU. Vukovar citizens are EU citizens also.

‘There is no such thing as earning a right...especially after a vicious and terrible war! Both sides perceive the other as the aggressor...nobody will ever win that arguement, we'd rather die...because we are too proud...both sides! Live in Croatia, as a Croatian of Serb descent...live with the language and we can start there and hopefully you are treated with respect and kindness!’
(Croatian Canadian, 7 November 2013 23:33)

There really is no such thing as ‘earning an inalienable right’ – therefore having dual languages/scripts on signs (expressing both the majority’s and the minority’s ethnic diversity) will enable all ethnicities to be represented within the area that they live.

Who knows the act itself may enable xenophobia to not be the first thing on any citizens mind when they see ‘the other’… They hopefully will just see a library, or a school, or any other thing which actually helps their society and fellow citizens.

As for ‘we would rather die’ …
Please don’t speak for me (I am Croatian Croat by decent) …

And: ‘As a Croatian of Serb descent...live with the language and then we can start there etc.’...
Please don’t presume I want to eradicate today's Croatian language because I don’t want to eradicate today's Serbian language from present-day Croatia (I am also ‘Croatian of Serb decent’).

P.S. Thank you for wishing respect and kindness! Same to you and everyone!

Get with the facts. Ovcara lot were overwhelmingly croatian paramilitaries and soldiers:


Appeals Chamber Judgement, 5 May 2009:
http://www.icty.org/case/mrksic/4

p.20 of pdf (or 15 on the bottom):
36. Pursuant to this jurisprudence and in light of the facts of the case, the Trial Chamber found that the victims were predominantly non-civilians.

114
Trial Judgement, para. 481. The Trial Chamber found that the evidence indicated that of the 194 persons identified
as among those alleged in the Indictment to have been murdered at Ovcara in the evening and night hours of 20/21
November 1991, 181 were known to be active in the Croatian forces in Vukovar. The Trial Chamber concluded that the
effect of the evidence was that the majority of these men (and two women) were members or reserve members of ZNG
(87) and that there was also a considerable number of members of the HV (30) and the Croatian MUP (17); there were
some members of the Croatian protection force of Vukovar (9) and a few members of the Croatian paramilitary
formation HOS (Croatian’s Liberation Forces, Hrvatske Oslobodilacke Snage); regarding the cases of nine other
victims the Trial Chamber accepted evidence of their military involvement; there were also 13 persons in respect of
whom no known military involvement was established by the evidence (Trial Judgement, para. 479).


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7017758.stm
Croatian anger at Vukovar verdict 28/9/2007

The Serbian government under General Milan Nedic worked closely with local Nazi officials in making Belgrade the first "Judenfrei" city of Europe.As late as 19 September 1943, Nedic made an official visit to Adolf Hitler , Serbs in Berlin advanced the idea that the Serbs were the "Ubermenchen" (master race) of the Slavs.

what? excuse me? sorry, I had my finger in my ear...what did you serbs say?

I suggest Serbian people read this essay and understand why Vukovar and the reluctance to allow cirilica is important to croatians:

http://descrier.co.uk/world/2013/11/alarm-bells-vukovar/

I don't agree with hatred, war, racism but I do believe that if tomorrow I move to Saudi Arabia, Germany or Chile...I must live as they do and not expect a priviledge because I may be a large minority. Live as those do in the country you reside in.
(Croatian Canadian, 11 November 2013 16:06)
==============================
You're right about Saudi Arabia but in Germany you would definitely get the privileges of a large minority.

It will be Germany who will whip you into shape in no time. You are under their control now.

BTW, you do agree with hatred and racism. Just read your own posts and you will see how hypocritical you are.

"Serbs were a minority in a Croatian state, the town was and always will be recognized as a Croatian town. When people from that town decide to attempt to take it over, that is considered an act of war, traitors...regardless of if they lived there or not they had to recognize they were living in Croatia and not Serbia"
===========================

Don't forget it was Yugoslavia and Croatians decided to take over and make it Croatia. It was only Croatia as a state of Yugoslavia NOT a country of Croatia.
So it was your lot who became terrorists in Yugoslavia not Serbs. They were quite happy to be part of a country they were born into.

If you know anything about Balkan history you would know that before Yugoslavia it was Austo Hungarian Empire who held the land and Serbs liberated you and themselves from them.
Yes, It was Croatia for a minute second during WW2 but never legitimately.

@Croatian Canadian - post: 11 November 2013 16:06...

Ethnic Serbs have been living ‘there’ (‘within the borders of what now constitutes as Croatia’) for centuries and now they also live there as Croatian nationals/EU citizens; the feelings of anyone do not change those facts. And I say ‘what constitutes’ because it has not always been under continuous control or even had continuous borders has it; indeed a lot of ethnic Croats and ethnic Serbs of the region were fighting together alongside people of every ethnicity (that lived there around the time of WW1) for the same imperial regime – or would you prefer to deny this as well on Armistice Day? If you do want to it still won’t change these facts, because facts say ‘tko te sisa’ to everyone, no matter how many sargije, tamburice or gusle you have in your family tree.

We have an ethnically mixed history in the region. It has been like this for centuries. Everyone's been hurt by someone if we go into generalities by ethnicity. If we went by feelings there would be no one left living on this planet. It is about learning to live with each other without perpetuating the past, and about living in a democratic society (flawed as the system is).

@Croatian Canadian.
As for the Yugoslav sympathizer question – I don’t know – you mentioned Yugoslav, I saw the word Croat, then Serb, then I mentioned Austro-Hungarian and the whole time I was a human being reading and writing thoughts. I'm not sure if they were Croatian thoughts though – I'll ask at the next meeting of ‘THE committee for deciding how to be a Croat’.
I hope that it doesn’t include these lessons from ‘So you're from the Balkans eee?…
1.) You are a victim of ‘them’ 1a.) Forever.
2.) ‘They’ are aggressors. 2a.) Forever.
3.) You will never surrender being a victim & look at them as being victims too (of us) – this is not being a victim (see rule 1).
3a.) I know we said we were never aggressors but we lied to you. See, you are a victim.
3b.) Back to them. Yes, even ‘their’ unborn children are aggressors. Even the ones who become future doctors that could possibly help your future children are aggressors.‘Their’ cups of coffee? Aggressors! Do not use logic. Forget rule 3a)!
4. We know that even in your family and circle of friends people are varied and different, let alone society as a whole, but within ‘them’ this does not apply – they may be human shaped, but they are aggressors in every form they take! Even the pretty ones.
4a.) Just see rule 2 and keep forgetting rule 3a! Nothing will ever override this.

There are always the few that want to drag you back into teach you a lesson; the ones you learn & practice are up to you though?

@Ma_Stvarno & Peggy- did you read the link I provided yesterday?

be truthful... you wont teach your children in schools about your mistakes and that you were the aggressors, you havent assisted in finding the missing 1000 + people but you want an equal right, in Croatia?

here is part of what she says: I remember the Serb tanks patrolling the streets, the replacement of all Croatian signs with ones in Cyrillic, and the hospital staff who celebrated the city’s “liberation” from Croatia. I remember a man vowing to kill his wife and son because she was Croatian. And I remember convoys of Serb troops passing through the area on their way into Bosnia to assist with the ethnic cleansing there. Vukovar’s Serbs surely remember these things too, and they have a civic responsibility to tell the truth about their city’s past. They are citizens of Croatia and always have been. Even before the war, Vukovar was part of the Socialist Republic of Croatia in the federation of Yugoslavia. But Vukovar’s Serbs are not acting like Croatian citizens, and this is the real sticking point.

Veteran defenders of Vukovar are rallying to defend their city and their country from a back-door attack. Cyrillic is not the issue. Even the ruling Social Democratic Party’s Vice-President, Milanka Opacic, recognised this, suggesting that un-apprehended war criminals roaming around in full sight of their victims is the real “problem”.

@Croatian Canadian
Truthfully - I find your posts bizarre. And even though it is addressed to both Peggy and me I will continue in this post to write for myself.

When making reference to the ‘ethnic Croat’ part of my human identity, there is the subtle ‘you are not doing it right/not Croat enough’ logic because I do not regurgitate the exact same views as you (the post where you allude to Yugoslav sympathies, being a Croat isn’t enough to know what it means to be Croat.)
Then when making reference to the ethnic Serbian part of my human identity, you accuse me of not being honest, about my mistakes during the war, about personally being the aggressor, and to top it off tell me that I haven’t personally helped in finding 1000+ people (post 12 November 2013 16:19 where you ask if I have read the post from yesterday (where you directly express it is to ‘Serbian people’.))

Your own words, your own racism – to our shared identity of Croat and my own equal identity as Serb – no matter which identity you are referring to, your words and treatment is warped and racist; I tried to address this earlier by pointing out the absurdity of your logic.

I am a human being – you are an irrelevancy in that fact.

And you can write every day, with your own reasons for your own racism, write every day until you die for all I care – you will never, ever stop this person from being a whole human being.

You simply do not have that power.

No one does.

Ma_Stvarno - the initial topic of this discussion is the removal of cirilica, how the Serb community are reacting and that Croatians should allow the writing.

My initial point of view regarding this topic was regarding the overall view of Croatian and why they refuse to accept cirilica. I was talking about the overall situation and found a very good point of view from an outside perspective giving their objective view.

I dont believe in war or racism but I do believe the issue amongst Serbs and Croats is very real...we should learn to live, but as neighbors, I dont think its right that Serbs...that had conspired to and did destroy that city now be appeased and given "their right" to have 'their" language while living in "the city" they destroyed. I believe the first step is for those Serbs that live their should adapt to the Croatian language, culture and traditions and if they choose to do other in their own home, thats totally fine!

here's another interesting fact: It is true that Croatia’s constitution requires bilingual signage when a minority of the population exceeds one-third, and that the 2011 census estimated the Serb population as 34.8%. However, there is considerable doubt about this statistic when the number of Serbs registered in the city (42,000) exceeds the entire population of Vukovar (27,000). It is furthermore not true that this is a European legal requirement. “decisions on the placing of bilingual signs are not regulated by European law”.

@Croatian canadian

It is not a responsibility (that goes along with having human rights) for every ethnic Serb to be accountable for the act of ‘some’ ethnic Serbs. In ‘peace-time’/now, I live in a town and crime goes on in this town, we have criminals here in the community – we share the same eye colour (me and some of the criminals); If I was brown eyed AND a criminal then lock me up, but if I am not? I automatically lose my right to use my brown eyes outside my own home because some people are brown-eyed criminals?

As for law: Croatia signed the 'European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages' so they (the govn.) have an obligation to minorities under those standards. That in combination with EU laws prohibiting discrimination within EU states, as well as Croatian law itself, is why the question of Cyrillic is about human rights in the EU.

Those same human rights are what everyone deserves. Those are the rights which will help to bring actual individual criminals to justice – prevention of discrimination is surely a peace-time version of laws against genocide after all?

And the more that racism goes unchallenged, the more chance there is that people aren't enabled to educate themselves and do better; it is part of being responsible and having human rights.

I don't agree with your racist views of my ethnicities, I don't even find them logical - but I do respect that you are human and as such, have the right to hold your own views.

@Croatian in Canada
'…and if they choose to do other in their own home, thats totally fine!’
You are Croatian in Canada:
Inside your own home you are ethnic Croat - outside of it you're the same person, made up of the same DNA and have the same ethnicity.
You cannot switch off being Croat because it is an intrinsic part of who you are as a human. It is the same for Serbs. 'In their own home' is impossible because to be ethnically anything is to be so simply by existing, from womb to grave.

War atrocities and addressing ‘the Serbs’ as a whole:
In the 1990’s, every single person of Serbian ethnicity, that was born 150 years before was dead right? For over-caution let’s say one million.

One million Serbs definitely did not commit war crimes in Vukovar.

http://www.serbianunity.com/serbianunitycongress/statistic

They provide numbers at around 12 million ethnically Serb people on the planet - let’s shave off one million for back in the 90’s. Can Vukovar hold 11 million people? No.

It is impossible that ‘the Serbian people’ – all the supposed 12 million (one million dead, 11 million alive) – committed the crimes in Vukovar.
Does that mean nothing happened in Vukovar – obviously not – but it does mean that the majority of Serbs are simply not guilty of war crimes just because they are Serbs.

That's why I think your views of ‘the Serbs’ as a whole are warped and racist because of this foundation of distortion, but you have that right.

@Ma_Stvarno - either I am not expressing myself clesrly or you are not understanding things clearly... there seems to be a BIG confusion here.

"inside your own home" comment: Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Holland, France, Italy and many other countries would not tolerate a minority disrespecting the laws their own country sets. If you are a croat or Serb in Sweden, be one in your home but respect Swedish laws, language and social services.

With regards to Serbs being guilty. This is a very simple thing to grasp...those that live in cities in Serbia and all over the world...that live peacefully and by the law...God Bless Them! Those that lived in Slavonija or other parts of Croatia as ethnic Serbs in the Republic of Croatia for decades upon decades...and then took arms, weapons, conspired to overthrow Croatian authority for the goal of a greater Serbia, those are not welcome!

Betrayal, if I live in Germany as an ethnic Frenchman and France attacks Germany...I must, as a citizen that accepts the benefits of living in Germany fight for Germany! If not, I am considered a traitor! Who's side did the minority Serbs join?

Serbs (the majority) are good people, just as Croats, Slovenes, Italians and so on!

Mexicans in Southern Texas are viewed poorly because they refuse to accept the American way...ie language, traditions and so on...Mexicans reap the rewards of living in the US...this is a huge problem for Americans that is discussed daily in America!

'Those that lived in Slavonija or other parts of Croatia as ethnic Serbs in the Republic of Croatia for decades upon decades...and then took arms, weapons, conspired to overthrow Croatian authority for the goal of a greater Serbia, those are not welcome!'

One: you cannot live ‘as’ an ethnic person – you are ethnically something, it isn’t something outside of what you are that you can pick up or put down.
Two: you are talking about individuals and simultaneously a whole ethnic group. I am not judging the whole of Croatian ethnicity on your racism. No. I am simply saying that you are racist, - you as an individual.

Three: What about the ones which were infirm at the time? I am going to infer that there was at least one that was in a coma, a good few were to young/too ill to fight, and some were being born - they need to go on trial to be welcome in their own country as well?

Racism!

‘Betrayal, Who's side did the minority Serbs join?’
I do not know every individual Serb just because I am ethnically Serb: why are you asking me? Oh yes, because you’re racist.
Why aren’t you asking me about what every single ethnic Croat did during the war – we share the same Christmas/Easter friend.

‘Mexicans in Southern Texas…...discussed daily in America!’
What is your point? Some people in the world are as racist as you? I know this already.

Bring something other than racism to the discussion - remember Croatia deserves better than racism!

@Croatian Canadian.

‘@Ma_Stvarno - either I am not expressing myself clesrly or you are not understanding things clearly... there seems to be a BIG confusion here.’

No confusion: you are racist.

If you are a citizen of Croatia, it is then ‘your country’ – this INCLUDES every single ethnic Serb person with Croatian citizenship; it is ‘their’ country as much as it is every single ethnically Croat individual’s country.

The law says it is 'their' country equally, based on citizenship – not on ethnicity. But you are so racist you cannot see that they are two different things.

What I said was: War atrocities and addressing ‘the Serbs’ as a whole

What you said: With regards to Serbs being guilty.

You are racist. And you put in into practice inside your thoughts, inside your beliefs and inside the words you expunge into the world.

Then you have the audacity to start saying things about a group of human beings, about how the whole group MUST lose their rights because of the actions of some of them.

According to your own logic, you don’t ‘deserve’ Croatia and Croatia doesn’t ‘deserve’ you - by being racist in action towards humans(as discussed previously in detail) you are not acting within the law of, Croatia, Canada, the EU, most of the world. So really, it isn't just Croatia that doesn't deserve you - it is the world.

And yet gravity still holds you down. Astounding the way being a human being works isn't it.

I'm not surprised you scream racism just as Jews scream anti semitism when the world asks them to explain their poor actions!

It's virtually impossible to explain things to a stubborn and uneducated Serb such as you are, you still think the western world is wrong as to why they imprison your criminals, why the world doesn't respect Serb politics and also the reason as to why you collaborate with Russia...that says a lot about you and racists, human rights mad primitive people. I did my best to explain but it's obvious you are lacking in common sense and dignity!

You've restored my opinion on Serbs after years of letting it go...great job and thanks for teaching me a dog is always a dog!

@Croatian Canadian

What do you think I don’t understand?

We are from the same part of the world - how many generations of family loss do you think genuinely believe that I do not understand under my own skin?

How many ‘bullet/stab wounds for burial’/family and friends do I not have to visit exactly?

Both - in Catholic graveyards AND Orthodox ones?

Going back how many generations exactly?

‘It’ gets dressed it in ‘Croat’ and ‘Serb’ and ‘Muslim’ but underneath ‘it’ is the same power-cycle, of continued victimisation of more human beings.

The cycle changes a person’s view of other individual people, to an identity, to an enemy, to a target, to someone’s family being told what happened.

Cyrillic did not make that nor did Latinice, it never has been and we both know this.

When I said racism to what you were saying it was not because you are a Croat, it was because I saw the mechanics of the power-cycle that hurt everyone in our wars. I do not like most Serbian politicians for the same cycle, most Croat politicians too – they know we have all been hurt by the war and the ‘you are a victim ONLY’ cycle continues for no one’s good.

I am saying that not everyone is going to victimise on ethnic grounds - I know many like-minds that are fed up of the cycle (people from many ethnic backgrounds), but if you only talk with the ‘cycle-happy’ you will never hear anything else will you?

Either way, I gain and lose nothing from what you do.

@Ma_Stvarno = "what do you think I dont understand"?

the answer: you dont understand that this cyrillic issue isnt about WW11 or WW1...this has nothing to do with an "enemy" or "Orthodox". This has everything to do with the memory of those that were killed in Vukovar and the total lack of respect for them. Vukovar is a Croatian town that was targeted and annihlated, many of those that were involved have never been broguht to justice and still walk the streets of Vukovar freely and without consequence. Should the rest of the innocent Serb population pay the price..."NO"...but not having cyrillic on a wall is not a penalty, if they live in Croatia they surely can read the Latin aplhabet! Once people live together, once the Serb population in Vukovar openly accept the Croatian way of life, no demands, live peacefully then we can talk. Evidently it is a very sensitive topic, why expose it worse than it has to be just to satisfy a minority...a minority that is most likely innocent but their "people" were involved with atrocities.

Time will heal everything, if you really have good intentoions then you could understand the issue is sensitive and wouldnt have an issue with living without cirilica...after all, it is only used in Serbia.I want peace, harmony and love BUT right now, I think everyone neds time to let history pass...at least one or two more generations.