21 years since massacre of civilians in Croatia

those are the european values EU is looking for

croats once nazis always nazis like their allies albans and bosnian muslims

15 years sentence for killing 19 people? It's less than a year per person. Unbelievable!

may the fallen one rast in peace. Croatian criminals deserve the same punishement, as serbian or albanian "so called" fridom fighteers. I'm albanian, but wars to have rules and the killing of civilians, should be condemned everytime in the harshest way

Albanian

You make it sound as if a total 21 serbs died all together. If you want to count bodies then lets do so. How many serbs have been killed by albs, croats and muslims, not just in the last war but including WW2? Just in Jasenovac over halv a million. And you as an albanian should just watch who you accuse. How could it be that the only thing you are good at is criminal behaviour. You contaminate Europé with drugs and human trafficers. So get of that high horse and get in the dirt where you belong.

Serbia should not ever complain about the past, they should be happy they did not get completely wiped out.
(Albanian, 11 December 2012 18:51)

Funny to hear from an Albo. You're lucky Serbs aren't like Albos or VS would have seriously "wiped out" all from KiM.

Firstly I condone any persons loss of life in any war but having said that let's not forget that initially the war in the former Yugoslavia was started by Serbia in a desperate land grabbing attempt to create a greater Serbia. Let's not forget that the tanks were coming from Belgrade into Croatian territory...... Croatia had & has every right to defend themselves, the propaganda claims by Serbia are becoming more invalid & the world is finally figuring out the truth. Serbia started 4 wars in ex Yugoslavia (Slovenia, Croatia, B & H, Kosovo) who only defended their rights & territory, isn't it obvious who the aggressors where?

Regards,

Ronny Smithy

Will Serbia ever tell its own people how many they have killed in Croatia Bosnia and Kosova? 21 People is nothing compared to what Serbs have killed, now you want to claim Innocence go for it ARI tell the world how Innocent you Serbs are. Only if the world had not seen everything you've done you might of gotten away with it.

Serbia should not ever complain about the past, they should be happy they did not get completely wiped out.

albanian,
your logic is flawed and inflamatory.
nowhere, and no one is claiming the innocence of serbs. serbs have accepted the reality that there were serbs who misused powers and behaved in a way which should (and has) found them behind bars. the issue at hand here is that others too are found guilty for similar crimes.
this is not a numbers game, unless you really want to do a count. a real count of heads, not what was declared in the early hours, a count that is internationally recognized (much like the counts from osce in kosovo debunking the mythology of huindreds of thousands down to merely thousands) is what would be needed to play out that game. since the game is based in the past one can argue that there is a legitimate threshold at which you do not go back past. one might further argue that such a threshold should be within the lives of currently living persons. one might argue that to compare numbers as you seem to be inclined to do, one might compare numbers stretching back to 1914. lets look at how many serbs were slaughtered, cleansed and converted for the last 98 years in comparison to how many croats, albanisns, and bosniaks were slain, cleaansed or converted.
but, refering to the immature illness of counting, the issue is not a matter of numbesr, but of universal claims. a war crime is a war crime regardsless of severity. the severity is not a case for innocence versus guilt but rather for determining the extent of the punishment. guilt is guilt.

Albanian

Why would you state that the serbs are lucky that they were not wiped out. This comment contradicts your argument if the serbs are the aggressors as you state why would they wipe themselves out? Unless it was someone else trying to wipe them out (Not the first time) and if that is the case then someone attempted to wipe the serbs out.

I will suggest that you look at the statistics of the total victims at the ICTY in both conflict the Bosnian war and the Kosovo which reveal the true account of victims

On a final point croatian albanians you have your country know move on with your lives forge your friendships in my mind croats and albanians are like brothers and sisters

Ari Gold...you have serious confusion and I think you don't have a grasp of what Yugolslavia was, how it was formed and why it fell apart...if you did you wouldn't expect any Nation or ethnic people to be dominated by another...Serbia had a great time while they prospered from other Republics...the party is now over and they can't cope...its amazing how a Jew could write such ignorant comments but on another nore expect their Israel to live with their freedoms!

as the cries of serbian victims of the 1990s continues to ring out, responses from the zgrb regime remain predictably silent.

what makes it even worse is that the tudjman era propaganda machine has found new strength with the criminal acquittal of gotovina and makrac, the search for justice for the victims will be even further removed from these so-called democratic europeans.

thousands of war criminals walk the streets of zagreb, split, and zadar everyday and the zgrb regime protects them as national treasures. i'd like to think my older brother would volunteer his time in searching for justice for serbian victims, but alas he's nowhere to be found these days. so we must wait and hope that one day justice will prevail for all victims of the 1990s, and not just the victims we personally care about.

ciao,

norberto
fiasco

Talk about mythologies, talk about exaggerated numbers, when in the world 500,000 Serbians have been killed? Of course we know Serbians misused their power in former Yugoslavia in the hands of Serbs alone. We all know Serbs sparked every war in Yugoslavia not the other way around. Apparently Serbs thought no one would react back with aggression. Such as Gotovina Haradinaj and Oric. These guys had no choice but to do something about it. Serbs on the other hand had a choice, they thought they could just walk all over former Yugoslavia as if they were invisible. Now that they regret what they have done and know they should have never did what they have done they turn to innocence. The 21 Serbians were talking about right now may have been completely innocent, but let's not be biased. Look on the other side of the fence see how badly Serbians committed crimes. AGAIN Serbians did it willingly, The guys I just mentioned earlier they had no choice but to react aggressively as well.

Where were Serbians in the 90's? They should have stopped those wars they started then. I know this for a damn fact had it been any of us we would have thrown our government out, and not let them do what they did to us. Problem is majority of the Serbs supported those wars then and majority still supports their nationalistic hatred among their neighbors TODAY.

You get treated how you treat others, so no crying no whining no complaining. Move on and deal with it.

Firstly I condone any persons loss of life in any war but having said that let's not forget that initially the war in the former Yugoslavia was started by Serbia in a desperate land grabbing attempt to create a greater Serbia.
=======================

Ronny, you clueless little man. Croatia was smuggling arms through Hungarian border way before any problems started.
They knew they were going to do this so don't come here saying it was Serbia. There WAS NO SERBIA back then, only Yugoslavia.
How much do you really know about anything?

What is inflammatory here is this article.

Pretty soon the Serbian Government will be forced to fine B92 for even mentioning such crimes took place. Expect that as the next EU demand after arresting every solider that fought for Serbia's freedom and independence during the 1990's and banning Cyrillic from being used throughout the country.

Albanians

Serb are treated as they treat others! Really, well during serb rule there were 90 % albs in Kosovo. How many serbs remain under alb maffia rule? And of course serbs exagerate the number of victims. The only ones that don't are you albs. Serbs never wanted anything that wasnt theirs to begin with. Albs, croats and muslims need to blame serbs so you could justify stealing our land.

Peggy...Yugoslavia was formed after the first world war...all the Republics were to have equal rights....the population of Croatians in my city was 90%...and the mayor of the city, the chief of police, the government jobs, the professors in the university and so on....were primarily Serbs! when we went to church in our village we knew who was watching us and taking notes...and when you wanted to progress...you had to be part of the Partija (the communist party)!

When communism was falling in Europe...both Croatia and Slovenia tried to be diplomatic...Milosevic had other plans....and he sabotaged Albanians also to demonstrate his barbaric ways!

Croatia and Slovenia attempted to work with the Yugo government but of course they didnt succeed so they declared independance! I have no idea how you think anyone prepared for any war when Croatia had almost no arms to defend themselves...you are incredibly misinformed...and you don't understand that when people are desperate to live like the rest of the western world and Milosevic is only looking for the better of Velika Srbija (Great Serbia) democracy prevails...Croatia has a right to live autonomous and to ask for independance since Serbia was only interested in their own interests...and this has clearly been the case, just look at Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosovo...they all eventually separated from the idealism of a Greater Serbia!

the only arms Croatians had were primitive compared to what the JNA military had!

This reminds me of how even Serbs who converted to Catholicism, under pressure/threat of the Ustashe, were often killed anyways. So these loyal-to-Croatia Serbs were wiped out due to them being Serbs. But who was the Hungarian killed, and did Hungary ever say anything about that?

But Serbs are foolish to trust Croats and be "loyal" to them as they are dyed-in-the-wool backstabbers.

Norberto...you have serious serious issues...have you any idea how ignorant your comment is...especially the part about Split and Zadar....Zadar was attacked and so was Dubrovnik and so many other historical cities....you have some serious issues!

hahaha...Peggy...where is your proof of this? saying is one thing please provide facts.

the only arms Croatians had were primitive compared to what the JNA military had!
(Canadian Hrvat, 12 December 2012 17:13)
==========================

You are either clueless or a BS artist like the Bosnian Muslims who also claim they only fought with bow and arrows.

Stop believing in your myths of the future.

I think Serbs really are clutching at straws you can't lose 3 wars and cry foul afterwards don't ever start anymore conflicts in the Balkan region it's not in your power to do the job. Nice to see Ante Gotovina free great man .

UNHCR statistics for Serbia in the 1990s show over 1 million refugees seeking shelter there. Serbia still hosts the largest number of refugees in the Balkans. And some fools still repeat the Greater Serbia myth. Even the ICTY has given up on that one.

@ Stuffed Canuck...maybe your head is so stuffed you can't see fact from fiction!?!? you said "UNHCR statistics for Serbia in the 1990s show over 1 million refugees seeking shelter there. Serbia still hosts the largest number of refugees in the Balkans. And some fools still repeat the Greater Serbia myth." - you realize that Serbia itself told their people to leave cities after they realized they would eventually lose a war they started right? in Krajina its a well known fact that Beograd militalirly supported the Serbs...here is a quote "Milan Babić, former President of Serbian Krajina, testified to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) that Krajina was provided weapons by Slobodan Milošević's government in Serbia, and that Krajina was economically and financially dependent upon Serbia". Soooooo....once again, please tell me why Serbia has refugees? They started and couldn't finish...they ended up not only losing the war but also public support...and now they are attempting to spin and deny any wrongdoings....Ante Gotovina was recently acquitted of all charges...he is a HERO...who liberated Croatia from barbaric people!

Now...please tell me one more time....why did Macedonia and Montenegro leave the "myth" you claim...greater Serbia? I already know the answer....do yourself a favor and read up on it!

Tiranaboy!

The only person u'r bsh-ing is you.

Well, lying to yourself is clearly an art form that you excel at. Serbia was already hosting much larger numbers of refugees before your Gotovina ethnically cleansed 200,000 with the help of the americans and germans. Your general Domazet produced fake serb army orders to leave the Krajina which was reported in Croatia's own Feral Tribune almost eleven years ago. Don't forget the Tudjman transcripts either.

Tudjman, holocaust denier and revisionist (Wastelands: Historical Truth - 1988) who's followers dress up in black and want a re-run of world war II.

And you think jews should not support the serbs? We will NEVER forget. We know what your people did. Squeal as much as you want expat, but your words are arrogant, ignorant drivel and beyond sickening.

@ njegos - you said: "Here are a few facts for you to chew on:"....and then you rambled on...when you want to present a fact you need to back it up with links to credible sources and not your Serbian propaganda that the rest of the world has tuned out!

you seem to want to change history....like the "hundreds of thousands" comment....why dont you just add another zero and call it millions while we're at it?

My comment about the weapons was with regards to the beginjing of the war when your barbaric Serbs (I won't even get into details because its pointless) destroyed towns and villages...can you deny Vukovar...can you deny Skabrnje, attacking Dubrovnik and Zadar...my Slavonija...Slavonski Brod was bombarded...how do you justify that?

lets talk history....what European country claimed to be judenfrei in the early 40's....they had a postage stamp to commemorate it...thats right brate....you cedo's!

Serbs in Croatia live far more happier than those in Serbia...otherwise they'd leave...and those that left did so because they sided with the Velika Srbija and collaborated with your cetnici...

throughout history Croatia had created atrocities...nobody denies that....so did the rest of Europe and regardless...that was then this is now...I live in today and remember yesterday....I don't pretend Croatia has never done wrong but you never admit Serbs wrongdoing! you continue to believe your lies and thats why you will never prosper.

the world knows...so I dont care what you think

ohhh...and civil war right, like there was any equal rights practiced under the so called Yugoslavia...Tensions between the Croats and Serbs often erupted into open conflict, with the Serb dominated security structure exercising oppression during elections and the assassination in federal parliament of Croat political leaders, including Stjepan Radić, who opposed the Serbian monarch's absolutism. The assassination and human rights abuses were subject of concern for the Human Rights League and precipitated voices of protest from intellectuals, including Albert Einstein...

tell me again how much you Serbs emjoyed our beaches and donations for your communists....who could live in that mess?

Before World War II, major tensions arose from the first, monarchist Yugoslavia's multi-ethnic make-up and relative political and demographic domination of the Serbs. Fundamental to the tensions were the different concepts of the new state. The Croats and Slovenes envisaged a federal model where they would enjoy greater autonomy than they had as a separate crown land under Austria-Hungary. Under Austria-Hungary, both Slovenes and Croats enjoyed autonomy with free hands only in education, law, religion and 45% of taxes. The Serbs tended to view the territories as a just reward for their support of the allies in World War I and the new state as an extension of the Serbian Kingdom.

the only people that prospered in Yugo were your Serbs...which is why not even CrnaGora want to be part of you

here are Slobodan Milosevic's intention far before the war started...when he claimed he was against any nationalism...this is what he said:

In a 1988 Belgrade rally, Milošević made clear his perception of the situation facing SR Serbia in Yugoslavia, saying:


"At home and abroad, Serbia's enemies are massing against us. We say to them 'We are not afraid'. 'We will not flinch from battle'." Slobodan Milošević, 19 November 1988.[14]

On another occasion, Milošević privately stated:


"We Serbs will act in the interest of Serbia whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not." Slobodan Milošević"

isn't that interesting how you claim this in 1991:

Croats in the Tudjman gov't. started firing Serbs from their jobs in 1991 for no other reason than they were Serbs. Croats fired the first shots of the war in Borovo Selo. Tudjman's gov't. brought back Nazi Ustasha symbols and named streets after Ustasha WWII war criminals. Tudjman invited Dinko Sakic, the former head of the notorious Jasenovac death camp where hundreds of thousands of Serbs were slaughtered, back to the newly independent Croatia. How were Serbs supposed to feel about all of this?

but Milosevic already started the Velika Srbija propaganda machine in
1987 and 1988...you asked me how Serbs should feel...this is but one example of how non Serbs should feel about Velika Srbija?

In January 1990, the extraordinary 14th Congress of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia was convened. The combined Yugoslav ruling party, the League of Communists of Yugoslavia (SKJ), was in crisis. Most of the Congress was spent with the Serbian and Slovene delegations arguing over the future of the League of Communists and Yugoslavia. SR Croatia's actions in preventing Serb protesters from reaching Slovenia played its part. The Serbian delegation, led by Milošević, insisted on a policy of "one person, one vote" in the party membership, which would empower the largest party ethnic group, the Serbs.

In turn, the Croats and Slovenes sought to reform Yugoslavia by delegating even more power to six republics, but were voted down continuously in every motion in an attempt to force the party to adopt the new voting system. As a result, the Croatian delegation, led by Chairman Ivica Račan, and Slovene delegation left the Congress on 23 January 1990, effectively dissolving the all-Yugoslav party. This in turn, along with external pressure, caused the adoption of multi-party systems in all republics.

In Croatia, the nationalist Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) was elected to power, led by controversial nationalist Franjo Tuđman, under the promise of "protecting Croatia from Milošević". There was growing advocacy for "Croatian state and historical rights" which resulted in the status of ethnic Serbs of Croatia being changed from "constitutional nation" to "national minority".

Canadian Hrvat, you're pretty good at cutting and pasting from your revionist books, but can you formulate an original thought on your own? You asked for sources to back up the claims that I made earlier, well here are just a few: why don't you start with reading Simon Wiesenthal's writings on the number of Serbs & Jews butchered by the Croatian Ustasha during WWII. And then move on to Genocide in Satellite Croatia or The Vatican's Holocaust, both by Avro Manhattan. And if that's not enough read Unholy Trinity by Aarons & Loftus. I could go on and on, but you get the point. And by the way, none of these authors are Serbs, so please don't respond with the typical Croat retort that this is Serb propaganda.

And your reference to Serbia being the first in Europe to declare themselves judenfrei is downright shameful. Another predictable Croat tactic of trying to equate Ustasha wrongdoing with that of the Serbs. Here's the difference, so pay attention: Croatia welcomed the Nazis into Zagreb with open arms and even held a ticker-tape parade for Hitler. The official gov't. and overwhelming majority of the population were sympathetic with the Nazis. The Serbs reisited Hitler, staged a coup and formed the 1st organized guerilla resistance group to fight the Nazis and communists. Milan Needic was a quisling who was appointed after Serbia was occupied by the Nazis and had no power at all. Big difference. Hitler bombed Belgrade. How many bombs fell on Zagreb?

Hey Hrvat, I'm not quite finished with you yet. Mihailovich had a bounty placed on his head, dead or alive, by Hitler. So please don't try to equate the Serb Chetniks with the Nazi collaborationist Ustasha. You sound more desperate by the minute.

I love the way you portray the Serbs as discriminating against the Croats throughout the history of Yugoslavia. Here are some more facts for you: Croatia fought with Germany in both world wars and against the US. The Serbs, who fought with the US, an on the winning side in both world wars, had pity on the Croats and accepted them into the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, later to become Yugoslavia in 1929. The Croats lost the war, but lobbied to be a part of Yugoslavia because they needed a protector just as they have throughout their history. From day one, they began to undermine the new county. When Tito, a Croat himself, ruled the country, he gave Croatia autonomy and even expanded Croatia's borders in 1974. So who exactly discriminated aginst Croatia, the Croat leader of the country, Tito?

Oh, and one more thing, how many of your relatives were part of the Ustasha, that proud organization who were the first to establish concentration camps for children during WWII? Can't wait to hear back from you.

njegos - it really doesn't surprise me how you took this topic of 91-95 Croatian defending their territory to WWII...it also doesnt surprise me of how you deny any Serb wrongdoing and yet you make Croatia the villian...especially in this past war. The truth of the matter is that actions speak for themselves...maybe that is what you should focus on rather than to try to convince the world that Serbia is free of sin! Croatia doesn't have anyone in the Hague...our generals have been proven innocent of wrongdoing...have yours?

Today, Montenegro...your partners in crime have left you...along with everyone else...ever wonder why? Why did Slovenia want out...are you saying that the fact the whole world knows Milosevic was a lunatic but you believe he was acting on behalf of anyone other than Serbs? It just amazes me that you could actually still...in this day and age when information is easy to gather you still argue points that have passed and your people have been proven guilty? I mean, why do you resist truth? You asked me if my gradnfather was an Ustasa...do you know what Ustasa actually stood for? I'm not an Ante Pavelic fan but I am for Croatia and our freedom.... I can see your tata taught you a history that only cedo's believe...

njegos - are you really that jealous about Hrvatska? or is it that you are so miserable with Serbia?

regarding Ustase...I'm not going to deny they did wrong because my father himself told me they did...and he also explained there were many Ustase that were fighting for Croatia with no intentions of murdering innocent people...and the Croatian today government denounce Ustase and denounce any form of extremism....we are definitely proud of our culture and country...nothing more!

I have no problem whatsoever admitting what really did happen but I also know your form of understanding is flawed at best...so much so that I could only possibly get anything close to what you are saying from a pro Serbia source and nothing more than that! and like I said in my other comment....where are we at today...Croatia...no war criminals in the Hague...Serbia???

I can see just how much you hate us...but honestly, we could care less...this is not a popularity contest but really...you have the Russians on your side as usual...we have the western world!

Canadian Ustasha, I took the liberty of changing your screenname based on your comments about your MANY relatives who fought proudly for this criminal organization.

You are a piece of work. How does it feel to have relatives who fought for an organization whose stated policy during WWII was to kill 1/3 of the Serbs living in Croatia, convert 1/3 to catholicsm & exile the final 1/3. This policy was declared by Mile Budak, Minister of Education in WWII Croatia. I assume your relatives believed in this policy since they fought for this genocidal regime. You must be very proud. It is clear now to understand your fervent hatred of Serbs. You were taught by relatives who fought for a regime that was arguably the most brutal and bloodthirsty of any in the modern era. Even the Nazis were appalled at the primitive butchery with which the Ustasha carried out thier killings. What is Christmas like at your house with relatives like that? Very warm and cozy, I'm sure.

And still no answer to my question about the 20,000 Serbs who lived in your hometown of Mostar prior to the war. Regarding Dubrovnik, the PR firms that you guys paid millions to would have the world believe that the city was leveled. In reality, the building that was damaged the most was the Serbian church there. Guess who was reponsible for that. And, if you guys were in the right, why did you pay multiple US PR firms millions of dollars to sway western sentiment your way? Must have been hiding something.

Canadian Ustasha, just a couple more things. Your constant mentioning of Milosevic & Seselj is bordering on fanatacism. I have stated that I have no use for either man. You on the other hand, have yet to condemn Tudjman, who, according to Stepe Mesic, former president of Croatia, stated that Tudjman said before Operation Storm that the Croats must make it appear as if the Serbs had never lived in Croatia. Have you read his book, 'Wastelands?' It is filled with his racist comments and Ustasha leanings. Heck, you've probably read it 3 or 4 times. I'm sure it's required reading in your family.

And your reference to Wikipedia as a reliable historical source is comical. A 3rd grade student can edit wikipedia. Keep trying.

We know what happened to the Serbs in the Krajina, they were ethnically cleansed. But let's discuss what happened to the croats living in Serbia proper during the war and the Albanians for that matter. The answer is nothing happened to them. You see, minorities still live in Serbia very peacefully, while Crotia have virtulally no minorities. You guys have accomplished what the Ustasha set out to do 70 years ago - you must be very proud.

And do you know what the biggest irony of all is? The fact that you slam the Serbs for everything that you can, yet participate on a Serb media message board. Why don't you find on a Croat media outlet blog? Perhaps because your progressive gov't. doesn't allow any dessenting opinions. Yeah, you guys are ready for the EU.

Canadian Hrvat - I guess it doesn't surprise me to see the one-sided, myopic and revisionist comments from a Canadian Croatian. My god, your comments portray the Croats as desperate little innocent victims in a three way civil war. Here are a few facts for you to chew on: Croats in the Tudjman gov't. started firing Serbs from their jobs in 1991 for no other reason than they were Serbs. Croats fired the first shots of the war in Borovo Selo. Tudjman's gov't. brought back Nazi Ustasha symbols and named streets after Ustasha WWII war criminals. Tudjman invited Dinko Sakic, the former head of the notorious Jasenovac death camp where hundreds of thousands of Serbs were slaughtered, back to the newly independent Croatia. How were Serbs supposed to feel about all of this? Not to mention Croatia violated the Yugoslav constitution by breaking away without a vote of the entire country. Tudjman made the comment that he was glad his wife was neither a Serb nor a Jew, demonstrating his fervent racism. And please tell me if the Croats were innocent in all of this, why did they spend millions on US PR firms to cleanse their image? And your comment about Croatia's arms being inferior to the JNA is laughable. Croatia spent millions more on arms breaking international law and the arms embargo that was imposed on Balkan states during the 90s. They were trained by MPRI, retired American military personnel, before Operation Storm. Brush up on the facts before ignorantly spewing your garbage.

Canadian Hrvat, you brought up history in one of your earlier posts. I merely gave you some historical facts that cannot be disputed. I even gave you sources that you asked for and now you don't want to talk about history! I don't blame you. If I were a Croat, I wouldn't want to talk about my history either.

You missed my point from the start. I responded to your comments because you condemned the Serbs as the only wrongdoers in a three-way civil war. I have never said the Serbs are without blame. I challange you to point out where I have done this. There are no angels in a three-way civil war. And using the recent appeal ruling in the Gotovina / Markac cases as proof that Croatia is without guilt is very simple minded. I guess the judges who sentenced them to 24 & 18 years respectively were pro-Serb, right? The verdict was overtuned in a 3-2 decision. Hardly overwhelming. There are many people, non Serbs I might add that believe that war crimes were committed by Croats.

Please show me where I ever defended Milosevic. I, like many, many Serbs had always despised the man. He was the worst thing for the Serbian people. He and Tudjman were cut from the same cloth.

Your continual reference to Montenegro, Macedonia, etc. breaking away is comical. Why don't you tell me why your own allies, the Muslims, live separately from your good-natured Croats in Bosnia? Weren't they your allies? They don't want to have anything to do with you now. Again, were your relatives Ustasha?

njegos - only in your deluted mind have Croatians ever considered Muslims our allies...at different points in history every race has to choose between forging an alliance for the same cause...doesn't really mean they are an ally! also, I can't find where I brought up history to make my point! I know Croatian history...I know Jasenovac and I know what Croats did...I have never hid from that with anyone...and I have never in my life condoned those types of actions...it is a scar on history that should NEVER be repeated!

I don't agree this was a 3 way civil war because this war was not fought on Serbian territory...we have never attacked Serbia but you use the Yugoslavia umbrella as a tool to say it was ok to attack Croats on Croatian land and this is where we differ. Saying it was a civil war in one breath and then acknowledging there were 3 sider would admit each side had their territory...which in turn would also demonstrate that 2 of the 3 sides were defending not attacking...do you see the difference! Slobodan Milosevic was Nationalistic but he didnt accept Croats to be that way...and when Croats and Slovenes asked for each state to have equal right to vote Milosevic didnt allow that...if he did...things would have been different today...so he wanted a bigger Serbia controlled government and expected everyone to live under their control while the rest of Europe was changing...why is that so hard for you to understand?

njegos -I lived in Mostar...I played professional soccer in Velez...my best friend was a Serb from Trebinje, Valdimir Gudelj and many of our friends were mixed. Today, Vukasin Petranovic (Crnagorac) still contacts me full well knowing I am a Croatian and they know my stance on politics...I will just say this...I may not know everything but I will always admit when a Croatian or their policies are wrong...and in the case of the former Yugoslavia I saw first hand just how unfair it was to be a Croat living in Croatia all while the minority were getting priviledges we couldnt get! Whether you believe it or not is not my business nor do I care...you first have to live as a Croat in Croatia and then see how a minority gets the better jobs and titles to understand why Croatians felt things were unfair...today Croatia still has several problems with corruption in their government just as many countries do and its a terrible shame! One of my best friends lives in Zagreb and travels to Beograd on business regularly...he tells me the Serb public are wonderful people...this coming from a guy who's own father was an Ustasa...but he also says he feels sorry for you people because your leaders are nuts...extreme...and Serbia will suffer until they change their government..they dont deserve these types who have ego's and still live in the past...I guess you are just like them!

njegos...when you say a comment like this "I guess the judges who sentenced them to 24 & 18 years respectively were pro-Serb, right? The verdict was overtuned in a 3-2 decision. Hardly overwhelming. There are many people, non Serbs I might add that believe that war crimes were committed by Croats."...it clearly shows you dont understand democracy...you think this was a popularity contest...this was a long drawn out court case where the prosecution brought in thousands of pieces of evidence...AND LOST...FAILED TO PROVE GUILT! this is a clear indication that the evidence didnt support the accusations...and the fact that you dont acknowledge they were innocent of the charges further proves you cant accept they very well are innocent! this is the type of thing we have problems with in our differences! this was not a Croatian court where they had political influence and you still can't accept the outcome...so how can we debate or discuss history if you wont accpt the present outcome of a court case? you insist on your Serbian views and I am pointing out fact...fact id today on the world stage that Croatia have been cleared of all charges in the Hague...and rightfully so...Serbia ...rightfully so...will pay the consequences for their atrocities...end of story...accept it!

Canadian Hrvat, interesting that you now say that you never brought up history. Here are your own words. From Canadian Hrvat on 12/18/12: 'lets talk history...what European country claimed to be judenfrei in the early 40's...they had a postage stamp to commemorate it...thats right brate...you cedo's'. Not only do you revise history, distort the truth and flat out lie, you seem to conveniently forget what you said when you are challanged. Simply put, you lack character.

You said you lived in Mostar. Tell me what happened to the 20,000 plus Serbs who lived there before the war of the 90s. And tell me about how the Croats blew up the famous bridge in Mostar which was a world historical site. Don't worry, I really don't expect you to address my questions. I've asked you to address several points in previous posts and you choose to ignore them. That speaks volumes about your position. You're good at hurling insults and cutting and pasting from your grandfather's Ustasha books, but when it comes to a meaningful debate you are obviously ill equipped.

Here are a just few points that you've avoided that I'll repeat: if Croatia was discriminated against throughout the history of Yugoslavia, why did Tito, a Croat, expand its borders while carving out Vojvodina and Kosovo out of Serbia, thereby making Serbia smaller? And the question that you repeatedly avoid, how many of your relatives were Ustasha?

I'll be away for a few days, but I'll be awaiting your reply when I return.

From Canadian Ustasha: "...well according to the Hague and the rest of the world your Serbs left on orders from Beograd, otherwise Gotovina would have been charged..." Well, Gotovina was charged and sentenced. Only through the appeals process did one single vote swing the decision in his favor. So your reference to "the rest of the world" is a far cry from being accurate, like most of what you say.

You claim that my statements make you laugh. Well, laughing when confronted on serious issues is a clear sign of insecurity. But that's understandable. I'd be insecure if I tried to defend your ridiculous statements too. Heck, it took me asking 3 or 4 times before you admitted that your relatives fought for the facist butchers Ustasha. And you still haven't answered several others that I've asked. So I'll ask again, what happened to the 20,000 pre-war Serb population of Mostar? And why, if Croatia was so righteous, did they pay millions to US PR firms to help their image in the west? You've been dodging this one for some time now.

Previously, I had given you some reading material. Here is another, "Media Cleansing" by Peter Brock, an award winning journalist for the New York Times whose career spanned over 30 years. The forward was written by David Binder, another esteemed NY Times reporter. Just more evidence of what "the rest of the world" thinks.

Keep believing what your Ustasha tata and djedo have told you. Maybe at some point in your life you'll embrace the truth.

once again you cant stay with the sequence of comments...when you mentioned I said: "Canadian Hrvat, interesting that you now say that you never brought up history. Here are your own words. From Canadian Hrvat on 12/18/12: 'lets talk history...what European country claimed to be judenfrei in the early 40's...they had a postage stamp to commemorate it...thats right brate...you cedo's'." ...I responded to your "Tudjman's gov't. brought back Nazi Ustasha symbols and named streets after Ustasha WWII war criminals"...Serbia was defeinitely not innocent but again you want to say that I am reading from my "your grandfather's Ustasha books"...actually, go to wikipedia or just google...its all there for you to read!

How many of my family were Ustasa...you ask this like I'm supposed to be embarassed? I'll answer...MANY...all fought for Hrvatska and proudly! None were ever accused of or brought up with any charges...

the bridge in Mostar was a casualty of war...either let weapons get across or diasble the means of transportation...a smart move I'd say! Now...bombarding Dubrovnik? why did you Serbs allow that? I saw a program on youtube which displayed both Milosevic and Seselj claiming Dubrovnik was Serbian and so was Split...hahahaha...where are they now? Seself looks like a freak show swearing and insulting judges...another indication of a Serb representative...Karadzic...hahaha...I can't stop laughing at who your people support...INSANITY!

njegos - first, I am from Slavonija but I played professional soocer in Velez Mostar...you said "We know what happened to the Serbs in the Krajina, they were ethnically cleansed"...well according to the Hague and the rest of the world your Serbs left on orders from Beograd, otherwise Gotovina would have been charged...third...(and possibly the funniest thing you've said so far)..."Regarding Dubrovnik, the PR firms that you guys paid millions to would have the world believe that the city was leveled"...so international media were all in on your conspiracy theory? hahahaha...thats the funniest thing I've read in years!

I am Croatian and not an Ustasa but if you choose to call me one I'm ok with that...I don't support Ustase or what they did in history!

Every time I read your comments you have your own version, one that only you and Serbs believe in...when you can one day come to terms with fact and discuss as an adult you may come to realize people may take you seriously. I have enjoyed reading your comments, they are good humore for me...just like any kind of SNL skit...a joke!

Tudjman did one good thing and other than that I could care less for him...he got us our freedom...Tito was a Croat who was a Communist...we don't respect that...there is no more Yugoslavia, deal with it!

Will Serbia ever tell its own people how many they have killed in Croatia Bosnia and Kosova? 21 People is nothing compared to what Serbs have killed, now you want to claim Innocence go for it ARI tell the world how Innocent you Serbs are. Only if the world had not seen everything you've done you might of gotten away with it.

Serbia should not ever complain about the past, they should be happy they did not get completely wiped out.

Talk about mythologies, talk about exaggerated numbers, when in the world 500,000 Serbians have been killed? Of course we know Serbians misused their power in former Yugoslavia in the hands of Serbs alone. We all know Serbs sparked every war in Yugoslavia not the other way around. Apparently Serbs thought no one would react back with aggression. Such as Gotovina Haradinaj and Oric. These guys had no choice but to do something about it. Serbs on the other hand had a choice, they thought they could just walk all over former Yugoslavia as if they were invisible. Now that they regret what they have done and know they should have never did what they have done they turn to innocence. The 21 Serbians were talking about right now may have been completely innocent, but let's not be biased. Look on the other side of the fence see how badly Serbians committed crimes. AGAIN Serbians did it willingly, The guys I just mentioned earlier they had no choice but to react aggressively as well.

Where were Serbians in the 90's? They should have stopped those wars they started then. I know this for a damn fact had it been any of us we would have thrown our government out, and not let them do what they did to us. Problem is majority of the Serbs supported those wars then and majority still supports their nationalistic hatred among their neighbors TODAY.

You get treated how you treat others, so no crying no whining no complaining. Move on and deal with it.

those are the european values EU is looking for

croats once nazis always nazis like their allies albans and bosnian muslims

Firstly I condone any persons loss of life in any war but having said that let's not forget that initially the war in the former Yugoslavia was started by Serbia in a desperate land grabbing attempt to create a greater Serbia. Let's not forget that the tanks were coming from Belgrade into Croatian territory...... Croatia had & has every right to defend themselves, the propaganda claims by Serbia are becoming more invalid & the world is finally figuring out the truth. Serbia started 4 wars in ex Yugoslavia (Slovenia, Croatia, B & H, Kosovo) who only defended their rights & territory, isn't it obvious who the aggressors where?

Regards,

Ronny Smithy

Ari Gold...you have serious confusion and I think you don't have a grasp of what Yugolslavia was, how it was formed and why it fell apart...if you did you wouldn't expect any Nation or ethnic people to be dominated by another...Serbia had a great time while they prospered from other Republics...the party is now over and they can't cope...its amazing how a Jew could write such ignorant comments but on another nore expect their Israel to live with their freedoms!

I think Serbs really are clutching at straws you can't lose 3 wars and cry foul afterwards don't ever start anymore conflicts in the Balkan region it's not in your power to do the job. Nice to see Ante Gotovina free great man .

as the cries of serbian victims of the 1990s continues to ring out, responses from the zgrb regime remain predictably silent.

what makes it even worse is that the tudjman era propaganda machine has found new strength with the criminal acquittal of gotovina and makrac, the search for justice for the victims will be even further removed from these so-called democratic europeans.

thousands of war criminals walk the streets of zagreb, split, and zadar everyday and the zgrb regime protects them as national treasures. i'd like to think my older brother would volunteer his time in searching for justice for serbian victims, but alas he's nowhere to be found these days. so we must wait and hope that one day justice will prevail for all victims of the 1990s, and not just the victims we personally care about.

ciao,

norberto
fiasco

Firstly I condone any persons loss of life in any war but having said that let's not forget that initially the war in the former Yugoslavia was started by Serbia in a desperate land grabbing attempt to create a greater Serbia.
=======================

Ronny, you clueless little man. Croatia was smuggling arms through Hungarian border way before any problems started.
They knew they were going to do this so don't come here saying it was Serbia. There WAS NO SERBIA back then, only Yugoslavia.
How much do you really know about anything?

Pretty soon the Serbian Government will be forced to fine B92 for even mentioning such crimes took place. Expect that as the next EU demand after arresting every solider that fought for Serbia's freedom and independence during the 1990's and banning Cyrillic from being used throughout the country.

Tiranaboy!

The only person u'r bsh-ing is you.

Norberto...you have serious serious issues...have you any idea how ignorant your comment is...especially the part about Split and Zadar....Zadar was attacked and so was Dubrovnik and so many other historical cities....you have some serious issues!

Albanian

You make it sound as if a total 21 serbs died all together. If you want to count bodies then lets do so. How many serbs have been killed by albs, croats and muslims, not just in the last war but including WW2? Just in Jasenovac over halv a million. And you as an albanian should just watch who you accuse. How could it be that the only thing you are good at is criminal behaviour. You contaminate Europé with drugs and human trafficers. So get of that high horse and get in the dirt where you belong.

What is inflammatory here is this article.

Peggy...Yugoslavia was formed after the first world war...all the Republics were to have equal rights....the population of Croatians in my city was 90%...and the mayor of the city, the chief of police, the government jobs, the professors in the university and so on....were primarily Serbs! when we went to church in our village we knew who was watching us and taking notes...and when you wanted to progress...you had to be part of the Partija (the communist party)!

When communism was falling in Europe...both Croatia and Slovenia tried to be diplomatic...Milosevic had other plans....and he sabotaged Albanians also to demonstrate his barbaric ways!

Croatia and Slovenia attempted to work with the Yugo government but of course they didnt succeed so they declared independance! I have no idea how you think anyone prepared for any war when Croatia had almost no arms to defend themselves...you are incredibly misinformed...and you don't understand that when people are desperate to live like the rest of the western world and Milosevic is only looking for the better of Velika Srbija (Great Serbia) democracy prevails...Croatia has a right to live autonomous and to ask for independance since Serbia was only interested in their own interests...and this has clearly been the case, just look at Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosovo...they all eventually separated from the idealism of a Greater Serbia!

the only arms Croatians had were primitive compared to what the JNA military had!

the only arms Croatians had were primitive compared to what the JNA military had!
(Canadian Hrvat, 12 December 2012 17:13)
==========================

You are either clueless or a BS artist like the Bosnian Muslims who also claim they only fought with bow and arrows.

Stop believing in your myths of the future.

Albanian

Why would you state that the serbs are lucky that they were not wiped out. This comment contradicts your argument if the serbs are the aggressors as you state why would they wipe themselves out? Unless it was someone else trying to wipe them out (Not the first time) and if that is the case then someone attempted to wipe the serbs out.

I will suggest that you look at the statistics of the total victims at the ICTY in both conflict the Bosnian war and the Kosovo which reveal the true account of victims

On a final point croatian albanians you have your country know move on with your lives forge your friendships in my mind croats and albanians are like brothers and sisters

This reminds me of how even Serbs who converted to Catholicism, under pressure/threat of the Ustashe, were often killed anyways. So these loyal-to-Croatia Serbs were wiped out due to them being Serbs. But who was the Hungarian killed, and did Hungary ever say anything about that?

But Serbs are foolish to trust Croats and be "loyal" to them as they are dyed-in-the-wool backstabbers.

albanian,
your logic is flawed and inflamatory.
nowhere, and no one is claiming the innocence of serbs. serbs have accepted the reality that there were serbs who misused powers and behaved in a way which should (and has) found them behind bars. the issue at hand here is that others too are found guilty for similar crimes.
this is not a numbers game, unless you really want to do a count. a real count of heads, not what was declared in the early hours, a count that is internationally recognized (much like the counts from osce in kosovo debunking the mythology of huindreds of thousands down to merely thousands) is what would be needed to play out that game. since the game is based in the past one can argue that there is a legitimate threshold at which you do not go back past. one might further argue that such a threshold should be within the lives of currently living persons. one might argue that to compare numbers as you seem to be inclined to do, one might compare numbers stretching back to 1914. lets look at how many serbs were slaughtered, cleansed and converted for the last 98 years in comparison to how many croats, albanisns, and bosniaks were slain, cleaansed or converted.
but, refering to the immature illness of counting, the issue is not a matter of numbesr, but of universal claims. a war crime is a war crime regardsless of severity. the severity is not a case for innocence versus guilt but rather for determining the extent of the punishment. guilt is guilt.

hahaha...Peggy...where is your proof of this? saying is one thing please provide facts.

Serbia should not ever complain about the past, they should be happy they did not get completely wiped out.
(Albanian, 11 December 2012 18:51)

Funny to hear from an Albo. You're lucky Serbs aren't like Albos or VS would have seriously "wiped out" all from KiM.

Albanians

Serb are treated as they treat others! Really, well during serb rule there were 90 % albs in Kosovo. How many serbs remain under alb maffia rule? And of course serbs exagerate the number of victims. The only ones that don't are you albs. Serbs never wanted anything that wasnt theirs to begin with. Albs, croats and muslims need to blame serbs so you could justify stealing our land.

UNHCR statistics for Serbia in the 1990s show over 1 million refugees seeking shelter there. Serbia still hosts the largest number of refugees in the Balkans. And some fools still repeat the Greater Serbia myth. Even the ICTY has given up on that one.

@ Stuffed Canuck...maybe your head is so stuffed you can't see fact from fiction!?!? you said "UNHCR statistics for Serbia in the 1990s show over 1 million refugees seeking shelter there. Serbia still hosts the largest number of refugees in the Balkans. And some fools still repeat the Greater Serbia myth." - you realize that Serbia itself told their people to leave cities after they realized they would eventually lose a war they started right? in Krajina its a well known fact that Beograd militalirly supported the Serbs...here is a quote "Milan Babić, former President of Serbian Krajina, testified to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) that Krajina was provided weapons by Slobodan Milošević's government in Serbia, and that Krajina was economically and financially dependent upon Serbia". Soooooo....once again, please tell me why Serbia has refugees? They started and couldn't finish...they ended up not only losing the war but also public support...and now they are attempting to spin and deny any wrongdoings....Ante Gotovina was recently acquitted of all charges...he is a HERO...who liberated Croatia from barbaric people!

Now...please tell me one more time....why did Macedonia and Montenegro leave the "myth" you claim...greater Serbia? I already know the answer....do yourself a favor and read up on it!

15 years sentence for killing 19 people? It's less than a year per person. Unbelievable!

Well, lying to yourself is clearly an art form that you excel at. Serbia was already hosting much larger numbers of refugees before your Gotovina ethnically cleansed 200,000 with the help of the americans and germans. Your general Domazet produced fake serb army orders to leave the Krajina which was reported in Croatia's own Feral Tribune almost eleven years ago. Don't forget the Tudjman transcripts either.

Tudjman, holocaust denier and revisionist (Wastelands: Historical Truth - 1988) who's followers dress up in black and want a re-run of world war II.

And you think jews should not support the serbs? We will NEVER forget. We know what your people did. Squeal as much as you want expat, but your words are arrogant, ignorant drivel and beyond sickening.

may the fallen one rast in peace. Croatian criminals deserve the same punishement, as serbian or albanian "so called" fridom fighteers. I'm albanian, but wars to have rules and the killing of civilians, should be condemned everytime in the harshest way

Canadian Hrvat - I guess it doesn't surprise me to see the one-sided, myopic and revisionist comments from a Canadian Croatian. My god, your comments portray the Croats as desperate little innocent victims in a three way civil war. Here are a few facts for you to chew on: Croats in the Tudjman gov't. started firing Serbs from their jobs in 1991 for no other reason than they were Serbs. Croats fired the first shots of the war in Borovo Selo. Tudjman's gov't. brought back Nazi Ustasha symbols and named streets after Ustasha WWII war criminals. Tudjman invited Dinko Sakic, the former head of the notorious Jasenovac death camp where hundreds of thousands of Serbs were slaughtered, back to the newly independent Croatia. How were Serbs supposed to feel about all of this? Not to mention Croatia violated the Yugoslav constitution by breaking away without a vote of the entire country. Tudjman made the comment that he was glad his wife was neither a Serb nor a Jew, demonstrating his fervent racism. And please tell me if the Croats were innocent in all of this, why did they spend millions on US PR firms to cleanse their image? And your comment about Croatia's arms being inferior to the JNA is laughable. Croatia spent millions more on arms breaking international law and the arms embargo that was imposed on Balkan states during the 90s. They were trained by MPRI, retired American military personnel, before Operation Storm. Brush up on the facts before ignorantly spewing your garbage.

Canadian Hrvat, you're pretty good at cutting and pasting from your revionist books, but can you formulate an original thought on your own? You asked for sources to back up the claims that I made earlier, well here are just a few: why don't you start with reading Simon Wiesenthal's writings on the number of Serbs & Jews butchered by the Croatian Ustasha during WWII. And then move on to Genocide in Satellite Croatia or The Vatican's Holocaust, both by Avro Manhattan. And if that's not enough read Unholy Trinity by Aarons & Loftus. I could go on and on, but you get the point. And by the way, none of these authors are Serbs, so please don't respond with the typical Croat retort that this is Serb propaganda.

And your reference to Serbia being the first in Europe to declare themselves judenfrei is downright shameful. Another predictable Croat tactic of trying to equate Ustasha wrongdoing with that of the Serbs. Here's the difference, so pay attention: Croatia welcomed the Nazis into Zagreb with open arms and even held a ticker-tape parade for Hitler. The official gov't. and overwhelming majority of the population were sympathetic with the Nazis. The Serbs reisited Hitler, staged a coup and formed the 1st organized guerilla resistance group to fight the Nazis and communists. Milan Needic was a quisling who was appointed after Serbia was occupied by the Nazis and had no power at all. Big difference. Hitler bombed Belgrade. How many bombs fell on Zagreb?

Hey Hrvat, I'm not quite finished with you yet. Mihailovich had a bounty placed on his head, dead or alive, by Hitler. So please don't try to equate the Serb Chetniks with the Nazi collaborationist Ustasha. You sound more desperate by the minute.

I love the way you portray the Serbs as discriminating against the Croats throughout the history of Yugoslavia. Here are some more facts for you: Croatia fought with Germany in both world wars and against the US. The Serbs, who fought with the US, an on the winning side in both world wars, had pity on the Croats and accepted them into the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, later to become Yugoslavia in 1929. The Croats lost the war, but lobbied to be a part of Yugoslavia because they needed a protector just as they have throughout their history. From day one, they began to undermine the new county. When Tito, a Croat himself, ruled the country, he gave Croatia autonomy and even expanded Croatia's borders in 1974. So who exactly discriminated aginst Croatia, the Croat leader of the country, Tito?

Oh, and one more thing, how many of your relatives were part of the Ustasha, that proud organization who were the first to establish concentration camps for children during WWII? Can't wait to hear back from you.

njegos - first, I am from Slavonija but I played professional soocer in Velez Mostar...you said "We know what happened to the Serbs in the Krajina, they were ethnically cleansed"...well according to the Hague and the rest of the world your Serbs left on orders from Beograd, otherwise Gotovina would have been charged...third...(and possibly the funniest thing you've said so far)..."Regarding Dubrovnik, the PR firms that you guys paid millions to would have the world believe that the city was leveled"...so international media were all in on your conspiracy theory? hahahaha...thats the funniest thing I've read in years!

I am Croatian and not an Ustasa but if you choose to call me one I'm ok with that...I don't support Ustase or what they did in history!

Every time I read your comments you have your own version, one that only you and Serbs believe in...when you can one day come to terms with fact and discuss as an adult you may come to realize people may take you seriously. I have enjoyed reading your comments, they are good humore for me...just like any kind of SNL skit...a joke!

Tudjman did one good thing and other than that I could care less for him...he got us our freedom...Tito was a Croat who was a Communist...we don't respect that...there is no more Yugoslavia, deal with it!

@ njegos - you said: "Here are a few facts for you to chew on:"....and then you rambled on...when you want to present a fact you need to back it up with links to credible sources and not your Serbian propaganda that the rest of the world has tuned out!

you seem to want to change history....like the "hundreds of thousands" comment....why dont you just add another zero and call it millions while we're at it?

My comment about the weapons was with regards to the beginjing of the war when your barbaric Serbs (I won't even get into details because its pointless) destroyed towns and villages...can you deny Vukovar...can you deny Skabrnje, attacking Dubrovnik and Zadar...my Slavonija...Slavonski Brod was bombarded...how do you justify that?

lets talk history....what European country claimed to be judenfrei in the early 40's....they had a postage stamp to commemorate it...thats right brate....you cedo's!

Serbs in Croatia live far more happier than those in Serbia...otherwise they'd leave...and those that left did so because they sided with the Velika Srbija and collaborated with your cetnici...

throughout history Croatia had created atrocities...nobody denies that....so did the rest of Europe and regardless...that was then this is now...I live in today and remember yesterday....I don't pretend Croatia has never done wrong but you never admit Serbs wrongdoing! you continue to believe your lies and thats why you will never prosper.

the world knows...so I dont care what you think

ohhh...and civil war right, like there was any equal rights practiced under the so called Yugoslavia...Tensions between the Croats and Serbs often erupted into open conflict, with the Serb dominated security structure exercising oppression during elections and the assassination in federal parliament of Croat political leaders, including Stjepan Radić, who opposed the Serbian monarch's absolutism. The assassination and human rights abuses were subject of concern for the Human Rights League and precipitated voices of protest from intellectuals, including Albert Einstein...

tell me again how much you Serbs emjoyed our beaches and donations for your communists....who could live in that mess?

Before World War II, major tensions arose from the first, monarchist Yugoslavia's multi-ethnic make-up and relative political and demographic domination of the Serbs. Fundamental to the tensions were the different concepts of the new state. The Croats and Slovenes envisaged a federal model where they would enjoy greater autonomy than they had as a separate crown land under Austria-Hungary. Under Austria-Hungary, both Slovenes and Croats enjoyed autonomy with free hands only in education, law, religion and 45% of taxes. The Serbs tended to view the territories as a just reward for their support of the allies in World War I and the new state as an extension of the Serbian Kingdom.

the only people that prospered in Yugo were your Serbs...which is why not even CrnaGora want to be part of you

here are Slobodan Milosevic's intention far before the war started...when he claimed he was against any nationalism...this is what he said:

In a 1988 Belgrade rally, Milošević made clear his perception of the situation facing SR Serbia in Yugoslavia, saying:


"At home and abroad, Serbia's enemies are massing against us. We say to them 'We are not afraid'. 'We will not flinch from battle'." Slobodan Milošević, 19 November 1988.[14]

On another occasion, Milošević privately stated:


"We Serbs will act in the interest of Serbia whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not." Slobodan Milošević"

isn't that interesting how you claim this in 1991:

Croats in the Tudjman gov't. started firing Serbs from their jobs in 1991 for no other reason than they were Serbs. Croats fired the first shots of the war in Borovo Selo. Tudjman's gov't. brought back Nazi Ustasha symbols and named streets after Ustasha WWII war criminals. Tudjman invited Dinko Sakic, the former head of the notorious Jasenovac death camp where hundreds of thousands of Serbs were slaughtered, back to the newly independent Croatia. How were Serbs supposed to feel about all of this?

but Milosevic already started the Velika Srbija propaganda machine in
1987 and 1988...you asked me how Serbs should feel...this is but one example of how non Serbs should feel about Velika Srbija?

In January 1990, the extraordinary 14th Congress of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia was convened. The combined Yugoslav ruling party, the League of Communists of Yugoslavia (SKJ), was in crisis. Most of the Congress was spent with the Serbian and Slovene delegations arguing over the future of the League of Communists and Yugoslavia. SR Croatia's actions in preventing Serb protesters from reaching Slovenia played its part. The Serbian delegation, led by Milošević, insisted on a policy of "one person, one vote" in the party membership, which would empower the largest party ethnic group, the Serbs.

In turn, the Croats and Slovenes sought to reform Yugoslavia by delegating even more power to six republics, but were voted down continuously in every motion in an attempt to force the party to adopt the new voting system. As a result, the Croatian delegation, led by Chairman Ivica Račan, and Slovene delegation left the Congress on 23 January 1990, effectively dissolving the all-Yugoslav party. This in turn, along with external pressure, caused the adoption of multi-party systems in all republics.

In Croatia, the nationalist Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) was elected to power, led by controversial nationalist Franjo Tuđman, under the promise of "protecting Croatia from Milošević". There was growing advocacy for "Croatian state and historical rights" which resulted in the status of ethnic Serbs of Croatia being changed from "constitutional nation" to "national minority".

njegos - it really doesn't surprise me how you took this topic of 91-95 Croatian defending their territory to WWII...it also doesnt surprise me of how you deny any Serb wrongdoing and yet you make Croatia the villian...especially in this past war. The truth of the matter is that actions speak for themselves...maybe that is what you should focus on rather than to try to convince the world that Serbia is free of sin! Croatia doesn't have anyone in the Hague...our generals have been proven innocent of wrongdoing...have yours?

Today, Montenegro...your partners in crime have left you...along with everyone else...ever wonder why? Why did Slovenia want out...are you saying that the fact the whole world knows Milosevic was a lunatic but you believe he was acting on behalf of anyone other than Serbs? It just amazes me that you could actually still...in this day and age when information is easy to gather you still argue points that have passed and your people have been proven guilty? I mean, why do you resist truth? You asked me if my gradnfather was an Ustasa...do you know what Ustasa actually stood for? I'm not an Ante Pavelic fan but I am for Croatia and our freedom.... I can see your tata taught you a history that only cedo's believe...

njegos - are you really that jealous about Hrvatska? or is it that you are so miserable with Serbia?

regarding Ustase...I'm not going to deny they did wrong because my father himself told me they did...and he also explained there were many Ustase that were fighting for Croatia with no intentions of murdering innocent people...and the Croatian today government denounce Ustase and denounce any form of extremism....we are definitely proud of our culture and country...nothing more!

I have no problem whatsoever admitting what really did happen but I also know your form of understanding is flawed at best...so much so that I could only possibly get anything close to what you are saying from a pro Serbia source and nothing more than that! and like I said in my other comment....where are we at today...Croatia...no war criminals in the Hague...Serbia???

I can see just how much you hate us...but honestly, we could care less...this is not a popularity contest but really...you have the Russians on your side as usual...we have the western world!

Canadian Hrvat, you brought up history in one of your earlier posts. I merely gave you some historical facts that cannot be disputed. I even gave you sources that you asked for and now you don't want to talk about history! I don't blame you. If I were a Croat, I wouldn't want to talk about my history either.

You missed my point from the start. I responded to your comments because you condemned the Serbs as the only wrongdoers in a three-way civil war. I have never said the Serbs are without blame. I challange you to point out where I have done this. There are no angels in a three-way civil war. And using the recent appeal ruling in the Gotovina / Markac cases as proof that Croatia is without guilt is very simple minded. I guess the judges who sentenced them to 24 & 18 years respectively were pro-Serb, right? The verdict was overtuned in a 3-2 decision. Hardly overwhelming. There are many people, non Serbs I might add that believe that war crimes were committed by Croats.

Please show me where I ever defended Milosevic. I, like many, many Serbs had always despised the man. He was the worst thing for the Serbian people. He and Tudjman were cut from the same cloth.

Your continual reference to Montenegro, Macedonia, etc. breaking away is comical. Why don't you tell me why your own allies, the Muslims, live separately from your good-natured Croats in Bosnia? Weren't they your allies? They don't want to have anything to do with you now. Again, were your relatives Ustasha?

njegos - only in your deluted mind have Croatians ever considered Muslims our allies...at different points in history every race has to choose between forging an alliance for the same cause...doesn't really mean they are an ally! also, I can't find where I brought up history to make my point! I know Croatian history...I know Jasenovac and I know what Croats did...I have never hid from that with anyone...and I have never in my life condoned those types of actions...it is a scar on history that should NEVER be repeated!

I don't agree this was a 3 way civil war because this war was not fought on Serbian territory...we have never attacked Serbia but you use the Yugoslavia umbrella as a tool to say it was ok to attack Croats on Croatian land and this is where we differ. Saying it was a civil war in one breath and then acknowledging there were 3 sider would admit each side had their territory...which in turn would also demonstrate that 2 of the 3 sides were defending not attacking...do you see the difference! Slobodan Milosevic was Nationalistic but he didnt accept Croats to be that way...and when Croats and Slovenes asked for each state to have equal right to vote Milosevic didnt allow that...if he did...things would have been different today...so he wanted a bigger Serbia controlled government and expected everyone to live under their control while the rest of Europe was changing...why is that so hard for you to understand?

njegos -I lived in Mostar...I played professional soccer in Velez...my best friend was a Serb from Trebinje, Valdimir Gudelj and many of our friends were mixed. Today, Vukasin Petranovic (Crnagorac) still contacts me full well knowing I am a Croatian and they know my stance on politics...I will just say this...I may not know everything but I will always admit when a Croatian or their policies are wrong...and in the case of the former Yugoslavia I saw first hand just how unfair it was to be a Croat living in Croatia all while the minority were getting priviledges we couldnt get! Whether you believe it or not is not my business nor do I care...you first have to live as a Croat in Croatia and then see how a minority gets the better jobs and titles to understand why Croatians felt things were unfair...today Croatia still has several problems with corruption in their government just as many countries do and its a terrible shame! One of my best friends lives in Zagreb and travels to Beograd on business regularly...he tells me the Serb public are wonderful people...this coming from a guy who's own father was an Ustasa...but he also says he feels sorry for you people because your leaders are nuts...extreme...and Serbia will suffer until they change their government..they dont deserve these types who have ego's and still live in the past...I guess you are just like them!

njegos...when you say a comment like this "I guess the judges who sentenced them to 24 & 18 years respectively were pro-Serb, right? The verdict was overtuned in a 3-2 decision. Hardly overwhelming. There are many people, non Serbs I might add that believe that war crimes were committed by Croats."...it clearly shows you dont understand democracy...you think this was a popularity contest...this was a long drawn out court case where the prosecution brought in thousands of pieces of evidence...AND LOST...FAILED TO PROVE GUILT! this is a clear indication that the evidence didnt support the accusations...and the fact that you dont acknowledge they were innocent of the charges further proves you cant accept they very well are innocent! this is the type of thing we have problems with in our differences! this was not a Croatian court where they had political influence and you still can't accept the outcome...so how can we debate or discuss history if you wont accpt the present outcome of a court case? you insist on your Serbian views and I am pointing out fact...fact id today on the world stage that Croatia have been cleared of all charges in the Hague...and rightfully so...Serbia ...rightfully so...will pay the consequences for their atrocities...end of story...accept it!

Canadian Hrvat, interesting that you now say that you never brought up history. Here are your own words. From Canadian Hrvat on 12/18/12: 'lets talk history...what European country claimed to be judenfrei in the early 40's...they had a postage stamp to commemorate it...thats right brate...you cedo's'. Not only do you revise history, distort the truth and flat out lie, you seem to conveniently forget what you said when you are challanged. Simply put, you lack character.

You said you lived in Mostar. Tell me what happened to the 20,000 plus Serbs who lived there before the war of the 90s. And tell me about how the Croats blew up the famous bridge in Mostar which was a world historical site. Don't worry, I really don't expect you to address my questions. I've asked you to address several points in previous posts and you choose to ignore them. That speaks volumes about your position. You're good at hurling insults and cutting and pasting from your grandfather's Ustasha books, but when it comes to a meaningful debate you are obviously ill equipped.

Here are a just few points that you've avoided that I'll repeat: if Croatia was discriminated against throughout the history of Yugoslavia, why did Tito, a Croat, expand its borders while carving out Vojvodina and Kosovo out of Serbia, thereby making Serbia smaller? And the question that you repeatedly avoid, how many of your relatives were Ustasha?

I'll be away for a few days, but I'll be awaiting your reply when I return.

once again you cant stay with the sequence of comments...when you mentioned I said: "Canadian Hrvat, interesting that you now say that you never brought up history. Here are your own words. From Canadian Hrvat on 12/18/12: 'lets talk history...what European country claimed to be judenfrei in the early 40's...they had a postage stamp to commemorate it...thats right brate...you cedo's'." ...I responded to your "Tudjman's gov't. brought back Nazi Ustasha symbols and named streets after Ustasha WWII war criminals"...Serbia was defeinitely not innocent but again you want to say that I am reading from my "your grandfather's Ustasha books"...actually, go to wikipedia or just google...its all there for you to read!

How many of my family were Ustasa...you ask this like I'm supposed to be embarassed? I'll answer...MANY...all fought for Hrvatska and proudly! None were ever accused of or brought up with any charges...

the bridge in Mostar was a casualty of war...either let weapons get across or diasble the means of transportation...a smart move I'd say! Now...bombarding Dubrovnik? why did you Serbs allow that? I saw a program on youtube which displayed both Milosevic and Seselj claiming Dubrovnik was Serbian and so was Split...hahahaha...where are they now? Seself looks like a freak show swearing and insulting judges...another indication of a Serb representative...Karadzic...hahaha...I can't stop laughing at who your people support...INSANITY!

Canadian Ustasha, I took the liberty of changing your screenname based on your comments about your MANY relatives who fought proudly for this criminal organization.

You are a piece of work. How does it feel to have relatives who fought for an organization whose stated policy during WWII was to kill 1/3 of the Serbs living in Croatia, convert 1/3 to catholicsm & exile the final 1/3. This policy was declared by Mile Budak, Minister of Education in WWII Croatia. I assume your relatives believed in this policy since they fought for this genocidal regime. You must be very proud. It is clear now to understand your fervent hatred of Serbs. You were taught by relatives who fought for a regime that was arguably the most brutal and bloodthirsty of any in the modern era. Even the Nazis were appalled at the primitive butchery with which the Ustasha carried out thier killings. What is Christmas like at your house with relatives like that? Very warm and cozy, I'm sure.

And still no answer to my question about the 20,000 Serbs who lived in your hometown of Mostar prior to the war. Regarding Dubrovnik, the PR firms that you guys paid millions to would have the world believe that the city was leveled. In reality, the building that was damaged the most was the Serbian church there. Guess who was reponsible for that. And, if you guys were in the right, why did you pay multiple US PR firms millions of dollars to sway western sentiment your way? Must have been hiding something.

Canadian Ustasha, just a couple more things. Your constant mentioning of Milosevic & Seselj is bordering on fanatacism. I have stated that I have no use for either man. You on the other hand, have yet to condemn Tudjman, who, according to Stepe Mesic, former president of Croatia, stated that Tudjman said before Operation Storm that the Croats must make it appear as if the Serbs had never lived in Croatia. Have you read his book, 'Wastelands?' It is filled with his racist comments and Ustasha leanings. Heck, you've probably read it 3 or 4 times. I'm sure it's required reading in your family.

And your reference to Wikipedia as a reliable historical source is comical. A 3rd grade student can edit wikipedia. Keep trying.

We know what happened to the Serbs in the Krajina, they were ethnically cleansed. But let's discuss what happened to the croats living in Serbia proper during the war and the Albanians for that matter. The answer is nothing happened to them. You see, minorities still live in Serbia very peacefully, while Crotia have virtulally no minorities. You guys have accomplished what the Ustasha set out to do 70 years ago - you must be very proud.

And do you know what the biggest irony of all is? The fact that you slam the Serbs for everything that you can, yet participate on a Serb media message board. Why don't you find on a Croat media outlet blog? Perhaps because your progressive gov't. doesn't allow any dessenting opinions. Yeah, you guys are ready for the EU.

From Canadian Ustasha: "...well according to the Hague and the rest of the world your Serbs left on orders from Beograd, otherwise Gotovina would have been charged..." Well, Gotovina was charged and sentenced. Only through the appeals process did one single vote swing the decision in his favor. So your reference to "the rest of the world" is a far cry from being accurate, like most of what you say.

You claim that my statements make you laugh. Well, laughing when confronted on serious issues is a clear sign of insecurity. But that's understandable. I'd be insecure if I tried to defend your ridiculous statements too. Heck, it took me asking 3 or 4 times before you admitted that your relatives fought for the facist butchers Ustasha. And you still haven't answered several others that I've asked. So I'll ask again, what happened to the 20,000 pre-war Serb population of Mostar? And why, if Croatia was so righteous, did they pay millions to US PR firms to help their image in the west? You've been dodging this one for some time now.

Previously, I had given you some reading material. Here is another, "Media Cleansing" by Peter Brock, an award winning journalist for the New York Times whose career spanned over 30 years. The forward was written by David Binder, another esteemed NY Times reporter. Just more evidence of what "the rest of the world" thinks.

Keep believing what your Ustasha tata and djedo have told you. Maybe at some point in your life you'll embrace the truth.