The Organized Crime Prosecution could launch a new probe against those responsible for the death of 16 Radio Television of Serbia (RTS) workers, B92 learned.
Danilo I agree with you that Milanovic was culpable and had a duty of care towards his workers. This type of solidarity attitude of 'us v them' in Serbia is pretty strong so anybody normal (with a heart) would have told their employees not to go into work.
Having said that I think you should think seriously about what constitutes a war crime. I think its perfectly good to maintain a position of being against the bombing of civilian occupied buildings, no matter the circumstances. Those that contravene this have to be investigated for war crimes.
The facts are that Wesley Clark claimed he leaked the bombing plan to a CNN reporter to pass onto the Yugoslav government. The only thing CNN did was to arrange a meeting with Aleksandar Vucic just after the time the bomb hit.
So either Clark lied and didn't tell CNN or he did and they tried to kill a government minister.
So, no one is answering the question - The RTS director sending innocent people to their deaths:
That's ok with everyone because there are bigger meenies in the world?
(Danilo, 29 March 2012 17:02)
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Please explain to me how the RTS director was sending them to work? Did he call each one and say, sorry but you have to go to work? People just go to work Danio, you don't get sent their. You are just believing the usual lies and attempting to justify a war crime committed by NATO.
I remember when it happened and there was a pretty big outcry at the time, with many internationals calling it a war crime. So now time to answer my question, do you support NATO having immunity to all crimes it commits?
Danilo, the point is, it is not a legitimate target unless you want to also claim that FOX, CNN and the BBC are also legitimate targets. NATO is pretty much wholly responsible.
-- Zoran CNN and NBC are not owned by the government. RTS is . So you analogy is not correct. The Serbian government was using people as human shields no matter how you try to spin it. If your government orders you to stay inside a building that it knows it will be bombed, then you're being used as a human shield, so your own people are making the decision to kill you. Whether you like that or not doesn't matter no matter the spin you try to put.
(ida, 29 March 2012 12:53)
You know what I find ironic is that Serbs claim all this propaganda in the west news agencies based on information they received in the very heavily propagandized Serbian press.
You take a reporter that prints a piece in contrast and suddenly you believe everything they say.
In other words we choose to believe the press that portrays us in the better light, no matter where we are.
Bob the apologist for the NATO war criminals is back. Hey Bob, are you going to tell me that the 'Racak massacre' was not a hoax? Go ahead, I dare you, and I will fill you with proof that it was a hoax. You and your western imperialists, and your version of reality, which has nothing to do with what actually happened on the ground, is a joke.
You sound like a typical ignorant member of the US State department, who has no clue about the Balkans and base their analysis on CNN reports from Christiane Amanpour, whos is another proven pro-muslim anti-Serb propogandist.
I think you should get together with the self hating Serbs on here, like Danilo and Nenad, and all have a beer together and click your glasses to the greatness of NATO and western imperialism, and have a merry old time.
Cheers!!
Dragan - If Milosevic and the nationalists who are apologists for him had not killed so many people, NATO would have sat quietly at home and never have given you any cause to resent them.
The fact that you resent NATO is tough. NATO stamped on an evil - an evil that you persist in supporting. There were years of killing, and that was not going to be allowed to succeed in Europe.
The most important thing was to ensure that Milosevic's policies FAILED.
What was most stupid was that he insisted on provoking the world so far that the world decided that those policies would not be allowed to succeed. A diplomatic failure on the part of Serbia.
NATO is all the countries of Europe and many more besides including the USofA. You spend your time resenting all of them because they were bigger than the locally generated warmongering that spoilt Serbia and the countries around for over a decade.
I have no particular axe to grind about NATO - but I do about people who insist on defending the failed and nasty nationalistic and criminal policies of Milosevic and his mafias.
Calling me ignorant is a bit pathetic. My observations made at the time are experience, not ignorance. What was most distasteful was that a war was driven by Milosevic, and he was more than happy to drive more. Your defense of him shows an ignorance of the pain he bought to the world - or maybe not ignorance, just criminal denial. The propaganda you still believe is still the lies he pumped out at the time. He drove divisions between Serbia and the 'west' to justify his pulling Serbia into the pit instead of wanting to engage with the international community to find solutions.
Force had been used to stop his murder in Bosnia, and it was a logical response to stop him doing the same in Kosovo.
Get real! Even if the west played him at his own propaganda game - tough - he asked for it!
It wasn't Serbs who were flying the bombs and terror bombing - it was NATO command that ordered the bombing. And as for CNN being objective - they were notorious for showing scenes of dead Serbs, including children, killed by the Croats and Muslims and claiming they instead were non-Serbs.
CNN even carefully clipped the Orthodox priest from a funeral for 2 Bosnian Serb children and was claiming they were poor Muslim children. A lie.
The mainstream media and its handlers was constantly covering up the terror over Serbs.
Also remember how NATO bombed a train crossing a bridge just after it came out of the tunnel and tried to show that it was an accident by using several times speeded up footage of the train - pretending that NATO pilots didn't see the train and it darted out to quickly.
And NATO also bombed the Albanian convoy in April (killing 86 Albanians, including children) and first claimed Serbs did it until an honest American journalist went to the scene and found U.S. ordnance there, which force NATO to admit but quickly changed their story to the Serbs "tricking" them.
And NATO had straffed that convoy for over an hour. And every NATO bombing had to get approval, they had contact and communications the whole time and they had cameras to record the bombs as they fell.
NATO knew full well their pilots had attacked that convoy yet tried to blame Serbs. They also bombed another Albanian convoy and an Albanian encampment of Albanians who were going back into Kosovo to check on their homes. Seemed NATO were killing Albanians who were moving in the right direction according to KLA orders.
I felt a bit sorry for him, because I think that he would quite like to have been able to tell the truth.
(Bob, 29 March 2012 03:43)
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And you know the "truth" do you? Or were you only referring to the CNN "truth"? Bob, your ignorance is shining.
Well, RTS under Milosevic can surely be called a state propaganda station that advocated the Milosevic politics. Freedom of speech should not include hate speech and war mongering. And it's clear that someone ordered the employees to stay within this building when the bombing was announced.
(Comm. Parrisson, 28 March 2012 21:34)
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Top, the world media was demonising Serbs and spreading hate speech from Clinton, Blair, Clarke, Halfbright, Shea and other war criminals. So does that make the world media, especially the BBC, CNN, FOX, etc... a military targets?
I recently spoke to someone about the broadcasting on Serbian TV, and this person explained that it was very graphic. They were showing dead corpses from NATO bombing all of the time. It was really a reality show, where NATO wanted their crimes covered up, however, "Milosevic's TV" was exposing it.
Yes it was wrong for the head of RTS to order the workers to go back into the building knowing that NATO was going to bomb them.. However, NATO had no right to bomb the RTS building in the first place. It was no military threat and if the only excuse they want to use for bombing it is "propaganda purposes" then Serbia would've had every right to go and bomb the entire western media for providing false reports and statistics to convince their own countries their reason for even being in europe.
America is very quick to dish out the bombing but if someone bombs them then they are immediately labelled terrorists..
What the Serbs should be doing is to charge NATO for all their war crimes.. or is NATO allowed to just do whatever they want and bomb whatever and whoever no matter how many civillians are killed, and not get charged?
So yes the head of RTS building is guilty, but NATO is 100 times more guilty for bombing in the first place.
Milosevic was pumping out lots of lies prior to and during the bombing. I was amazed that the things that were being said even a year before. I was even more amazed that so many people were so willing to be lied to and didn't seem to have a clear idea of what the country was being dragged into by Milosevic. I guess that Bosnia and Kosovo were seen as not being 'actual' when it came to death and destruction, and that the lack of actuality also extended to not realising that the reality of the bombing would come if Milosevic was likely to repeat the murders of Bosnia in Kosovo.
Even though I do think that the TV station was a legitimate target, I do not think that it should have been bombed. NATO should have just gone for the transmitters. However, neither do I think that Milosevic should have continued to use the TV station for his one-sided propaganda. Most certainly, I do think that it was abysmal that the TV bosses (and certainly higher up the tree to the very top) were prepared to put their own staff in the building knowing that warnings had been given. That is worse than pathetic.
I think that what was being pumped out on Serbian TV was a lot different from the analysis on BBC, CNN etc. At least the BBC and CNN did try to show both sides of the argument even if the ambassadors and other speakers were pathetic failures at making a persuadable case. I remember the Serbian ambassador looking a totally out of touch when being interviewed on western TV - he was regurgitating the Milosevic line with no (apparent) understanding of why the west had got fed up with being lied to for so long. Instead of addressing the issues and looking for solutions, he just carried on the denials and trite propaganda.
I felt a bit sorry for him, because I think that he would quite like to have been able to tell the truth.
Funny how Serbs go on an on about how Muslims shelled their own people for propaganda points, but the only instance of this being proved is Serbs doing it.
Anyway. Don't shoot the messenger :)
(Danilo, 28 March 2012 19:03)
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Danilo, the point is, it is not a legitimate target unless you want to also claim that FOX, CNN and the BBC are also legitimate targets. NATO is pretty much wholly responsible.
You obviously don't understand Serbian inat. Serbs were holding concerts on Bridges in Belgrade while they were being bombed in Novi Sad. NATO was warning that Belgrade bridges would also be bombed. I mean, they bombed a train whilst going over a bridge. Now who is responsible for that? The train driver?
Serbs were not bombing their own people and blaming others. It was NATO doing the bombing and they are the ones to blame. Simplez.
"There were no necessity or any millitary reasons to bomb the RTS building. It was a simple act of "punishment" for Milosevic policy. What is very sad becouse We speak about Western countries which officialy support the freedom of speach."
(Lucas, 28 March 2012 15:15)
Well, RTS under Milosevic can surely be called a state propaganda station that advocated the Milosevic politics. Freedom of speech should not include hate speech and war mongering. And it's clear that someone ordered the employees to stay within this building when the bombing was announced.
You are honestly just a walking talking joke. How about I put it to you like this, if NATO didn't drop the bombs, then there would have been no deaths, it is as plain and simple as that. Can you please explain for the benefit of every Serb here why on earth you find it so impossible to blame NATO for anything? why is it that Serbs are guilty for everything including their own deaths? Oh and while you are at it, why dont you then back up your beliefs that NATO was right to bomb Serbian civilians, please, explain.
When i read the headline new probe into NATO bombing of RTS i thought great,maybe we will see the NATO war criminals in court,then i read on and realized it was some serbs again on their knees blaming themselves for NATO savagery,for Gods sake get up off your knees.
Whether you agree or not that the RTS building was a legitimate target, the government in Belgrade had been warned that Nato considered it to be one. In that case, it should have been empty every night, like the army and police buildings that were being taken out. Sutanovac saying that he needs information on pilot communication with the base is asking for something that he knows no military is going to provide, and that would be irrelevant in any case.
I didn't say that the head of RTS is responsible for the bombing. He is responsible for the deaths of the people who died in the bombing.
He knew there was going to be bombing of the building (NATO announced these things publicly)
He sent those people to die for propaganda points
This has been proven in court.
You can argue that the material damage is or isn't a crime, but the responsibility of the dealths of these innocents lies solely on the conscience of the former RTS director.
Funny how Serbs go on an on about how Muslims shelled their own people for propaganda points, but the only instance of this being proved is Serbs doing it.
The former head of RTS is in jail now because it was proven that, after it being made known by NATO were going to strike RTS, he sent the workers into the building to be killed. There was no need for them to be there and they were sent to their deaths so that you could be outraged.
Do you not know that this happened? or do you just not care because NATO
Aren't we missing the point here. Who launched the cruise missiles that struck the building. Who purposely targeted unarmed civilian workers. This wasn't 'collateral damage' to repeat that grotesque phrase. This wasn't an accident. Those who fired the rockets are directly responsible for a war crime. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation murdered those people. Full stop.
A television station sending PROPAGANDA is legitimate target. But if you are so sure it was wrong ask Vuk de Duck to present your case to the ICJ. Good luck!
(Bang Bang!, 28 March 2012 16:22)
So you are saying that CNN and FOX news should be bombed?
The people who ordered the workers to stay in the building, knowingly sending people to their deaths to score media points... those people aren't "real criminals"?
(Danilo, 28 March 2012 17:00)
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Danilo, people ordered workers to stay in the second tower before the plane hit it on 9/11. Are they now responsible for the terrorist act?
The fact is, NATO have an excuse for all their crimes. Do you agree that NATO and the US should have immunity for these crimes?
The people who ordered the workers to stay in the building, knowingly sending people to their deaths to score media points... those people aren't "real criminals"?
Kacin equals NATO bootlicker. Why anyone pays attention to what he says, and why he is quoted by B92 so often, is beyond me.
(ecoman, 28 March 2012 14:57)
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Ummm, I think you should research B92 a little and find out about its foundations and who funded/funds it. It might make things a little more clear.
Besides, pretty much all Serbs know who is responsible for this war crime. The spin is just a sideshow.
The people who ordered the workers to stay in the building, knowingly sending people to their deaths to score media points... those people aren't "real criminals"?
(Danilo, 28 March 2012 17:00)
Killing journalists, targeting media outlets, is a blatant war crime, and against the Geneva Convention and all norms. Are you aware of this? I blame the people responsible, not the victims. I suppose you are going to tell me Slobo is guilty because NATO bombed the RTS building, and Slobo is guilty because NATO bombed the Chinese embassy, and Slobo is guilty because of Abu Ghraib, and Slobo is guilty because Wesley Clark spilled his coffee on his shirt, Slobo is guilty because Madeline Albright is overweight.....So to answer your question, no, nobody could have predicted that NATO would so brazenly violate the Geneva Convention and the rules of war and actually bombed the RTS building for the world to see, murdering make-up staff and janitors. I place the blame squarely on NATO, they are the 'real criminals'.
If only Serbs warned the Albanians when they filled up mass graves, equally as much as Nato warned that Rts was going to get bombed, but some Serb psychopaths thought brownie manipulating points are worth more than innocent lifes forced to work in a war zone.
Kacin equals NATO bootlicker. Why anyone pays attention to what he says, and why he is quoted by B92 so often, is beyond me. He is obviously a paid EO Eurocrat, so what do you expect him to say? It would be like, Mr. Obama, what do you think of the democratic party?
(ecoman, 28 March 2012 14:
Mr Ecoman..
Here you are again..!!
I can see that you have a serious problem with the reality...
A television station sending PROPAGANDA is legitimate target. But if you are so sure it was wrong ask Vuk de Duck to present your case to the ICJ. Good luck!
There were no necessity or any millitary reasons to bomb the RTS building. It was a simple act of "punishment" for Milosevic policy. What is very sad becouse We speak about Western countries which officialy support the freedom of speach.
It's amazing to me that people are not going after the real war criminals, the ones ordered the bombing, executed it, and dropped the bombs on the RTS building, killing 16 innocent civilians. That would be NATO - and specificaly Wesley Clark and Madeline Albright. They will burn in hell for this war crime, that is for sure.
It's amazing the level of brainwashing that has been going on in Serbia, funded of course by the West. Some Serbs are actually blaming other Serbs for the bombs that NATO dropped on a non-military target? Pathetic. Go after the real war criminals, we all know who they are.
Kacin equals NATO bootlicker. Why anyone pays attention to what he says, and why he is quoted by B92 so often, is beyond me. He is obviously a paid EO Eurocrat, so what do you expect him to say? It would be like, Mr. Obama, what do you think of the democratic party?
It's amazing to me that people are not going after the real war criminals, the ones ordered the bombing, executed it, and dropped the bombs on the RTS building, killing 16 innocent civilians. That would be NATO - and specificaly Wesley Clark and Madeline Albright. They will burn in hell for this war crime, that is for sure.
It's amazing the level of brainwashing that has been going on in Serbia, funded of course by the West. Some Serbs are actually blaming other Serbs for the bombs that NATO dropped on a non-military target? Pathetic. Go after the real war criminals, we all know who they are.
There were no necessity or any millitary reasons to bomb the RTS building. It was a simple act of "punishment" for Milosevic policy. What is very sad becouse We speak about Western countries which officialy support the freedom of speach.
The people who ordered the workers to stay in the building, knowingly sending people to their deaths to score media points... those people aren't "real criminals"?
(Danilo, 28 March 2012 17:00)
Killing journalists, targeting media outlets, is a blatant war crime, and against the Geneva Convention and all norms. Are you aware of this? I blame the people responsible, not the victims. I suppose you are going to tell me Slobo is guilty because NATO bombed the RTS building, and Slobo is guilty because NATO bombed the Chinese embassy, and Slobo is guilty because of Abu Ghraib, and Slobo is guilty because Wesley Clark spilled his coffee on his shirt, Slobo is guilty because Madeline Albright is overweight.....So to answer your question, no, nobody could have predicted that NATO would so brazenly violate the Geneva Convention and the rules of war and actually bombed the RTS building for the world to see, murdering make-up staff and janitors. I place the blame squarely on NATO, they are the 'real criminals'.
A television station sending PROPAGANDA is legitimate target. But if you are so sure it was wrong ask Vuk de Duck to present your case to the ICJ. Good luck!
(Bang Bang!, 28 March 2012 16:22)
So you are saying that CNN and FOX news should be bombed?
Kacin equals NATO bootlicker. Why anyone pays attention to what he says, and why he is quoted by B92 so often, is beyond me. He is obviously a paid EO Eurocrat, so what do you expect him to say? It would be like, Mr. Obama, what do you think of the democratic party?
The people who ordered the workers to stay in the building, knowingly sending people to their deaths to score media points... those people aren't "real criminals"?
(Danilo, 28 March 2012 17:00)
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Danilo, people ordered workers to stay in the second tower before the plane hit it on 9/11. Are they now responsible for the terrorist act?
The fact is, NATO have an excuse for all their crimes. Do you agree that NATO and the US should have immunity for these crimes?
Kacin equals NATO bootlicker. Why anyone pays attention to what he says, and why he is quoted by B92 so often, is beyond me.
(ecoman, 28 March 2012 14:57)
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Ummm, I think you should research B92 a little and find out about its foundations and who funded/funds it. It might make things a little more clear.
Besides, pretty much all Serbs know who is responsible for this war crime. The spin is just a sideshow.
Aren't we missing the point here. Who launched the cruise missiles that struck the building. Who purposely targeted unarmed civilian workers. This wasn't 'collateral damage' to repeat that grotesque phrase. This wasn't an accident. Those who fired the rockets are directly responsible for a war crime. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation murdered those people. Full stop.
Funny how Serbs go on an on about how Muslims shelled their own people for propaganda points, but the only instance of this being proved is Serbs doing it.
Anyway. Don't shoot the messenger :)
(Danilo, 28 March 2012 19:03)
--
Danilo, the point is, it is not a legitimate target unless you want to also claim that FOX, CNN and the BBC are also legitimate targets. NATO is pretty much wholly responsible.
You obviously don't understand Serbian inat. Serbs were holding concerts on Bridges in Belgrade while they were being bombed in Novi Sad. NATO was warning that Belgrade bridges would also be bombed. I mean, they bombed a train whilst going over a bridge. Now who is responsible for that? The train driver?
Serbs were not bombing their own people and blaming others. It was NATO doing the bombing and they are the ones to blame. Simplez.
It wasn't Serbs who were flying the bombs and terror bombing - it was NATO command that ordered the bombing. And as for CNN being objective - they were notorious for showing scenes of dead Serbs, including children, killed by the Croats and Muslims and claiming they instead were non-Serbs.
CNN even carefully clipped the Orthodox priest from a funeral for 2 Bosnian Serb children and was claiming they were poor Muslim children. A lie.
The mainstream media and its handlers was constantly covering up the terror over Serbs.
Also remember how NATO bombed a train crossing a bridge just after it came out of the tunnel and tried to show that it was an accident by using several times speeded up footage of the train - pretending that NATO pilots didn't see the train and it darted out to quickly.
And NATO also bombed the Albanian convoy in April (killing 86 Albanians, including children) and first claimed Serbs did it until an honest American journalist went to the scene and found U.S. ordnance there, which force NATO to admit but quickly changed their story to the Serbs "tricking" them.
And NATO had straffed that convoy for over an hour. And every NATO bombing had to get approval, they had contact and communications the whole time and they had cameras to record the bombs as they fell.
NATO knew full well their pilots had attacked that convoy yet tried to blame Serbs. They also bombed another Albanian convoy and an Albanian encampment of Albanians who were going back into Kosovo to check on their homes. Seemed NATO were killing Albanians who were moving in the right direction according to KLA orders.
If only Serbs warned the Albanians when they filled up mass graves, equally as much as Nato warned that Rts was going to get bombed, but some Serb psychopaths thought brownie manipulating points are worth more than innocent lifes forced to work in a war zone.
The people who ordered the workers to stay in the building, knowingly sending people to their deaths to score media points... those people aren't "real criminals"?
I felt a bit sorry for him, because I think that he would quite like to have been able to tell the truth.
(Bob, 29 March 2012 03:43)
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And you know the "truth" do you? Or were you only referring to the CNN "truth"? Bob, your ignorance is shining.
A television station sending PROPAGANDA is legitimate target. But if you are so sure it was wrong ask Vuk de Duck to present your case to the ICJ. Good luck!
Whether you agree or not that the RTS building was a legitimate target, the government in Belgrade had been warned that Nato considered it to be one. In that case, it should have been empty every night, like the army and police buildings that were being taken out. Sutanovac saying that he needs information on pilot communication with the base is asking for something that he knows no military is going to provide, and that would be irrelevant in any case.
Bob the apologist for the NATO war criminals is back. Hey Bob, are you going to tell me that the 'Racak massacre' was not a hoax? Go ahead, I dare you, and I will fill you with proof that it was a hoax. You and your western imperialists, and your version of reality, which has nothing to do with what actually happened on the ground, is a joke.
You sound like a typical ignorant member of the US State department, who has no clue about the Balkans and base their analysis on CNN reports from Christiane Amanpour, whos is another proven pro-muslim anti-Serb propogandist.
I think you should get together with the self hating Serbs on here, like Danilo and Nenad, and all have a beer together and click your glasses to the greatness of NATO and western imperialism, and have a merry old time.
Cheers!!
I didn't say that the head of RTS is responsible for the bombing. He is responsible for the deaths of the people who died in the bombing.
He knew there was going to be bombing of the building (NATO announced these things publicly)
He sent those people to die for propaganda points
This has been proven in court.
You can argue that the material damage is or isn't a crime, but the responsibility of the dealths of these innocents lies solely on the conscience of the former RTS director.
Funny how Serbs go on an on about how Muslims shelled their own people for propaganda points, but the only instance of this being proved is Serbs doing it.
When i read the headline new probe into NATO bombing of RTS i thought great,maybe we will see the NATO war criminals in court,then i read on and realized it was some serbs again on their knees blaming themselves for NATO savagery,for Gods sake get up off your knees.
The former head of RTS is in jail now because it was proven that, after it being made known by NATO were going to strike RTS, he sent the workers into the building to be killed. There was no need for them to be there and they were sent to their deaths so that you could be outraged.
Do you not know that this happened? or do you just not care because NATO
You are honestly just a walking talking joke. How about I put it to you like this, if NATO didn't drop the bombs, then there would have been no deaths, it is as plain and simple as that. Can you please explain for the benefit of every Serb here why on earth you find it so impossible to blame NATO for anything? why is it that Serbs are guilty for everything including their own deaths? Oh and while you are at it, why dont you then back up your beliefs that NATO was right to bomb Serbian civilians, please, explain.
Well, RTS under Milosevic can surely be called a state propaganda station that advocated the Milosevic politics. Freedom of speech should not include hate speech and war mongering. And it's clear that someone ordered the employees to stay within this building when the bombing was announced.
(Comm. Parrisson, 28 March 2012 21:34)
--
Top, the world media was demonising Serbs and spreading hate speech from Clinton, Blair, Clarke, Halfbright, Shea and other war criminals. So does that make the world media, especially the BBC, CNN, FOX, etc... a military targets?
I recently spoke to someone about the broadcasting on Serbian TV, and this person explained that it was very graphic. They were showing dead corpses from NATO bombing all of the time. It was really a reality show, where NATO wanted their crimes covered up, however, "Milosevic's TV" was exposing it.
"There were no necessity or any millitary reasons to bomb the RTS building. It was a simple act of "punishment" for Milosevic policy. What is very sad becouse We speak about Western countries which officialy support the freedom of speach."
(Lucas, 28 March 2012 15:15)
Well, RTS under Milosevic can surely be called a state propaganda station that advocated the Milosevic politics. Freedom of speech should not include hate speech and war mongering. And it's clear that someone ordered the employees to stay within this building when the bombing was announced.
Kacin equals NATO bootlicker. Why anyone pays attention to what he says, and why he is quoted by B92 so often, is beyond me. He is obviously a paid EO Eurocrat, so what do you expect him to say? It would be like, Mr. Obama, what do you think of the democratic party?
(ecoman, 28 March 2012 14:
Mr Ecoman..
Here you are again..!!
I can see that you have a serious problem with the reality...
So, no one is answering the question - The RTS director sending innocent people to their deaths:
That's ok with everyone because there are bigger meenies in the world?
(Danilo, 29 March 2012 17:02)
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Please explain to me how the RTS director was sending them to work? Did he call each one and say, sorry but you have to go to work? People just go to work Danio, you don't get sent their. You are just believing the usual lies and attempting to justify a war crime committed by NATO.
I remember when it happened and there was a pretty big outcry at the time, with many internationals calling it a war crime. So now time to answer my question, do you support NATO having immunity to all crimes it commits?
Yes it was wrong for the head of RTS to order the workers to go back into the building knowing that NATO was going to bomb them.. However, NATO had no right to bomb the RTS building in the first place. It was no military threat and if the only excuse they want to use for bombing it is "propaganda purposes" then Serbia would've had every right to go and bomb the entire western media for providing false reports and statistics to convince their own countries their reason for even being in europe.
America is very quick to dish out the bombing but if someone bombs them then they are immediately labelled terrorists..
What the Serbs should be doing is to charge NATO for all their war crimes.. or is NATO allowed to just do whatever they want and bomb whatever and whoever no matter how many civillians are killed, and not get charged?
So yes the head of RTS building is guilty, but NATO is 100 times more guilty for bombing in the first place.
Calling me ignorant is a bit pathetic. My observations made at the time are experience, not ignorance. What was most distasteful was that a war was driven by Milosevic, and he was more than happy to drive more. Your defense of him shows an ignorance of the pain he bought to the world - or maybe not ignorance, just criminal denial. The propaganda you still believe is still the lies he pumped out at the time. He drove divisions between Serbia and the 'west' to justify his pulling Serbia into the pit instead of wanting to engage with the international community to find solutions.
Force had been used to stop his murder in Bosnia, and it was a logical response to stop him doing the same in Kosovo.
Get real! Even if the west played him at his own propaganda game - tough - he asked for it!
The facts are that Wesley Clark claimed he leaked the bombing plan to a CNN reporter to pass onto the Yugoslav government. The only thing CNN did was to arrange a meeting with Aleksandar Vucic just after the time the bomb hit.
So either Clark lied and didn't tell CNN or he did and they tried to kill a government minister.
(ida, 29 March 2012 12:53)
You know what I find ironic is that Serbs claim all this propaganda in the west news agencies based on information they received in the very heavily propagandized Serbian press.
You take a reporter that prints a piece in contrast and suddenly you believe everything they say.
In other words we choose to believe the press that portrays us in the better light, no matter where we are.
Dragan - If Milosevic and the nationalists who are apologists for him had not killed so many people, NATO would have sat quietly at home and never have given you any cause to resent them.
The fact that you resent NATO is tough. NATO stamped on an evil - an evil that you persist in supporting. There were years of killing, and that was not going to be allowed to succeed in Europe.
The most important thing was to ensure that Milosevic's policies FAILED.
What was most stupid was that he insisted on provoking the world so far that the world decided that those policies would not be allowed to succeed. A diplomatic failure on the part of Serbia.
NATO is all the countries of Europe and many more besides including the USofA. You spend your time resenting all of them because they were bigger than the locally generated warmongering that spoilt Serbia and the countries around for over a decade.
I have no particular axe to grind about NATO - but I do about people who insist on defending the failed and nasty nationalistic and criminal policies of Milosevic and his mafias.
Milosevic was pumping out lots of lies prior to and during the bombing. I was amazed that the things that were being said even a year before. I was even more amazed that so many people were so willing to be lied to and didn't seem to have a clear idea of what the country was being dragged into by Milosevic. I guess that Bosnia and Kosovo were seen as not being 'actual' when it came to death and destruction, and that the lack of actuality also extended to not realising that the reality of the bombing would come if Milosevic was likely to repeat the murders of Bosnia in Kosovo.
Even though I do think that the TV station was a legitimate target, I do not think that it should have been bombed. NATO should have just gone for the transmitters. However, neither do I think that Milosevic should have continued to use the TV station for his one-sided propaganda. Most certainly, I do think that it was abysmal that the TV bosses (and certainly higher up the tree to the very top) were prepared to put their own staff in the building knowing that warnings had been given. That is worse than pathetic.
I think that what was being pumped out on Serbian TV was a lot different from the analysis on BBC, CNN etc. At least the BBC and CNN did try to show both sides of the argument even if the ambassadors and other speakers were pathetic failures at making a persuadable case. I remember the Serbian ambassador looking a totally out of touch when being interviewed on western TV - he was regurgitating the Milosevic line with no (apparent) understanding of why the west had got fed up with being lied to for so long. Instead of addressing the issues and looking for solutions, he just carried on the denials and trite propaganda.
I felt a bit sorry for him, because I think that he would quite like to have been able to tell the truth.
Danilo, the point is, it is not a legitimate target unless you want to also claim that FOX, CNN and the BBC are also legitimate targets. NATO is pretty much wholly responsible.
-- Zoran CNN and NBC are not owned by the government. RTS is . So you analogy is not correct. The Serbian government was using people as human shields no matter how you try to spin it. If your government orders you to stay inside a building that it knows it will be bombed, then you're being used as a human shield, so your own people are making the decision to kill you. Whether you like that or not doesn't matter no matter the spin you try to put.
Danilo I agree with you that Milanovic was culpable and had a duty of care towards his workers. This type of solidarity attitude of 'us v them' in Serbia is pretty strong so anybody normal (with a heart) would have told their employees not to go into work.
Having said that I think you should think seriously about what constitutes a war crime. I think its perfectly good to maintain a position of being against the bombing of civilian occupied buildings, no matter the circumstances. Those that contravene this have to be investigated for war crimes.
It's amazing to me that people are not going after the real war criminals, the ones ordered the bombing, executed it, and dropped the bombs on the RTS building, killing 16 innocent civilians. That would be NATO - and specificaly Wesley Clark and Madeline Albright. They will burn in hell for this war crime, that is for sure.
It's amazing the level of brainwashing that has been going on in Serbia, funded of course by the West. Some Serbs are actually blaming other Serbs for the bombs that NATO dropped on a non-military target? Pathetic. Go after the real war criminals, we all know who they are.
The former head of RTS is in jail now because it was proven that, after it being made known by NATO were going to strike RTS, he sent the workers into the building to be killed. There was no need for them to be there and they were sent to their deaths so that you could be outraged.
Do you not know that this happened? or do you just not care because NATO
If only Serbs warned the Albanians when they filled up mass graves, equally as much as Nato warned that Rts was going to get bombed, but some Serb psychopaths thought brownie manipulating points are worth more than innocent lifes forced to work in a war zone.
A television station sending PROPAGANDA is legitimate target. But if you are so sure it was wrong ask Vuk de Duck to present your case to the ICJ. Good luck!
Dragan - If Milosevic and the nationalists who are apologists for him had not killed so many people, NATO would have sat quietly at home and never have given you any cause to resent them.
The fact that you resent NATO is tough. NATO stamped on an evil - an evil that you persist in supporting. There were years of killing, and that was not going to be allowed to succeed in Europe.
The most important thing was to ensure that Milosevic's policies FAILED.
What was most stupid was that he insisted on provoking the world so far that the world decided that those policies would not be allowed to succeed. A diplomatic failure on the part of Serbia.
NATO is all the countries of Europe and many more besides including the USofA. You spend your time resenting all of them because they were bigger than the locally generated warmongering that spoilt Serbia and the countries around for over a decade.
I have no particular axe to grind about NATO - but I do about people who insist on defending the failed and nasty nationalistic and criminal policies of Milosevic and his mafias.
Milosevic was pumping out lots of lies prior to and during the bombing. I was amazed that the things that were being said even a year before. I was even more amazed that so many people were so willing to be lied to and didn't seem to have a clear idea of what the country was being dragged into by Milosevic. I guess that Bosnia and Kosovo were seen as not being 'actual' when it came to death and destruction, and that the lack of actuality also extended to not realising that the reality of the bombing would come if Milosevic was likely to repeat the murders of Bosnia in Kosovo.
Even though I do think that the TV station was a legitimate target, I do not think that it should have been bombed. NATO should have just gone for the transmitters. However, neither do I think that Milosevic should have continued to use the TV station for his one-sided propaganda. Most certainly, I do think that it was abysmal that the TV bosses (and certainly higher up the tree to the very top) were prepared to put their own staff in the building knowing that warnings had been given. That is worse than pathetic.
I think that what was being pumped out on Serbian TV was a lot different from the analysis on BBC, CNN etc. At least the BBC and CNN did try to show both sides of the argument even if the ambassadors and other speakers were pathetic failures at making a persuadable case. I remember the Serbian ambassador looking a totally out of touch when being interviewed on western TV - he was regurgitating the Milosevic line with no (apparent) understanding of why the west had got fed up with being lied to for so long. Instead of addressing the issues and looking for solutions, he just carried on the denials and trite propaganda.
I felt a bit sorry for him, because I think that he would quite like to have been able to tell the truth.
The people who ordered the workers to stay in the building, knowingly sending people to their deaths to score media points... those people aren't "real criminals"?
Kacin equals NATO bootlicker. Why anyone pays attention to what he says, and why he is quoted by B92 so often, is beyond me. He is obviously a paid EO Eurocrat, so what do you expect him to say? It would be like, Mr. Obama, what do you think of the democratic party?
Kacin equals NATO bootlicker. Why anyone pays attention to what he says, and why he is quoted by B92 so often, is beyond me. He is obviously a paid EO Eurocrat, so what do you expect him to say? It would be like, Mr. Obama, what do you think of the democratic party?
(ecoman, 28 March 2012 14:
Mr Ecoman..
Here you are again..!!
I can see that you have a serious problem with the reality...
The people who ordered the workers to stay in the building, knowingly sending people to their deaths to score media points... those people aren't "real criminals"?
(Danilo, 28 March 2012 17:00)
Killing journalists, targeting media outlets, is a blatant war crime, and against the Geneva Convention and all norms. Are you aware of this? I blame the people responsible, not the victims. I suppose you are going to tell me Slobo is guilty because NATO bombed the RTS building, and Slobo is guilty because NATO bombed the Chinese embassy, and Slobo is guilty because of Abu Ghraib, and Slobo is guilty because Wesley Clark spilled his coffee on his shirt, Slobo is guilty because Madeline Albright is overweight.....So to answer your question, no, nobody could have predicted that NATO would so brazenly violate the Geneva Convention and the rules of war and actually bombed the RTS building for the world to see, murdering make-up staff and janitors. I place the blame squarely on NATO, they are the 'real criminals'.
Whether you agree or not that the RTS building was a legitimate target, the government in Belgrade had been warned that Nato considered it to be one. In that case, it should have been empty every night, like the army and police buildings that were being taken out. Sutanovac saying that he needs information on pilot communication with the base is asking for something that he knows no military is going to provide, and that would be irrelevant in any case.
"There were no necessity or any millitary reasons to bomb the RTS building. It was a simple act of "punishment" for Milosevic policy. What is very sad becouse We speak about Western countries which officialy support the freedom of speach."
(Lucas, 28 March 2012 15:15)
Well, RTS under Milosevic can surely be called a state propaganda station that advocated the Milosevic politics. Freedom of speech should not include hate speech and war mongering. And it's clear that someone ordered the employees to stay within this building when the bombing was announced.
Calling me ignorant is a bit pathetic. My observations made at the time are experience, not ignorance. What was most distasteful was that a war was driven by Milosevic, and he was more than happy to drive more. Your defense of him shows an ignorance of the pain he bought to the world - or maybe not ignorance, just criminal denial. The propaganda you still believe is still the lies he pumped out at the time. He drove divisions between Serbia and the 'west' to justify his pulling Serbia into the pit instead of wanting to engage with the international community to find solutions.
Force had been used to stop his murder in Bosnia, and it was a logical response to stop him doing the same in Kosovo.
Get real! Even if the west played him at his own propaganda game - tough - he asked for it!
There were no necessity or any millitary reasons to bomb the RTS building. It was a simple act of "punishment" for Milosevic policy. What is very sad becouse We speak about Western countries which officialy support the freedom of speach.
I didn't say that the head of RTS is responsible for the bombing. He is responsible for the deaths of the people who died in the bombing.
He knew there was going to be bombing of the building (NATO announced these things publicly)
He sent those people to die for propaganda points
This has been proven in court.
You can argue that the material damage is or isn't a crime, but the responsibility of the dealths of these innocents lies solely on the conscience of the former RTS director.
Funny how Serbs go on an on about how Muslims shelled their own people for propaganda points, but the only instance of this being proved is Serbs doing it.
Funny how Serbs go on an on about how Muslims shelled their own people for propaganda points, but the only instance of this being proved is Serbs doing it.
Anyway. Don't shoot the messenger :)
(Danilo, 28 March 2012 19:03)
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Danilo, the point is, it is not a legitimate target unless you want to also claim that FOX, CNN and the BBC are also legitimate targets. NATO is pretty much wholly responsible.
You obviously don't understand Serbian inat. Serbs were holding concerts on Bridges in Belgrade while they were being bombed in Novi Sad. NATO was warning that Belgrade bridges would also be bombed. I mean, they bombed a train whilst going over a bridge. Now who is responsible for that? The train driver?
Serbs were not bombing their own people and blaming others. It was NATO doing the bombing and they are the ones to blame. Simplez.
(ida, 29 March 2012 12:53)
You know what I find ironic is that Serbs claim all this propaganda in the west news agencies based on information they received in the very heavily propagandized Serbian press.
You take a reporter that prints a piece in contrast and suddenly you believe everything they say.
In other words we choose to believe the press that portrays us in the better light, no matter where we are.
Aren't we missing the point here. Who launched the cruise missiles that struck the building. Who purposely targeted unarmed civilian workers. This wasn't 'collateral damage' to repeat that grotesque phrase. This wasn't an accident. Those who fired the rockets are directly responsible for a war crime. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation murdered those people. Full stop.
When i read the headline new probe into NATO bombing of RTS i thought great,maybe we will see the NATO war criminals in court,then i read on and realized it was some serbs again on their knees blaming themselves for NATO savagery,for Gods sake get up off your knees.
You are honestly just a walking talking joke. How about I put it to you like this, if NATO didn't drop the bombs, then there would have been no deaths, it is as plain and simple as that. Can you please explain for the benefit of every Serb here why on earth you find it so impossible to blame NATO for anything? why is it that Serbs are guilty for everything including their own deaths? Oh and while you are at it, why dont you then back up your beliefs that NATO was right to bomb Serbian civilians, please, explain.
The people who ordered the workers to stay in the building, knowingly sending people to their deaths to score media points... those people aren't "real criminals"?
(Danilo, 28 March 2012 17:00)
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Danilo, people ordered workers to stay in the second tower before the plane hit it on 9/11. Are they now responsible for the terrorist act?
The fact is, NATO have an excuse for all their crimes. Do you agree that NATO and the US should have immunity for these crimes?
A television station sending PROPAGANDA is legitimate target. But if you are so sure it was wrong ask Vuk de Duck to present your case to the ICJ. Good luck!
(Bang Bang!, 28 March 2012 16:22)
So you are saying that CNN and FOX news should be bombed?
Danilo, the point is, it is not a legitimate target unless you want to also claim that FOX, CNN and the BBC are also legitimate targets. NATO is pretty much wholly responsible.
-- Zoran CNN and NBC are not owned by the government. RTS is . So you analogy is not correct. The Serbian government was using people as human shields no matter how you try to spin it. If your government orders you to stay inside a building that it knows it will be bombed, then you're being used as a human shield, so your own people are making the decision to kill you. Whether you like that or not doesn't matter no matter the spin you try to put.
Yes it was wrong for the head of RTS to order the workers to go back into the building knowing that NATO was going to bomb them.. However, NATO had no right to bomb the RTS building in the first place. It was no military threat and if the only excuse they want to use for bombing it is "propaganda purposes" then Serbia would've had every right to go and bomb the entire western media for providing false reports and statistics to convince their own countries their reason for even being in europe.
America is very quick to dish out the bombing but if someone bombs them then they are immediately labelled terrorists..
What the Serbs should be doing is to charge NATO for all their war crimes.. or is NATO allowed to just do whatever they want and bomb whatever and whoever no matter how many civillians are killed, and not get charged?
So yes the head of RTS building is guilty, but NATO is 100 times more guilty for bombing in the first place.
Well, RTS under Milosevic can surely be called a state propaganda station that advocated the Milosevic politics. Freedom of speech should not include hate speech and war mongering. And it's clear that someone ordered the employees to stay within this building when the bombing was announced.
(Comm. Parrisson, 28 March 2012 21:34)
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Top, the world media was demonising Serbs and spreading hate speech from Clinton, Blair, Clarke, Halfbright, Shea and other war criminals. So does that make the world media, especially the BBC, CNN, FOX, etc... a military targets?
I recently spoke to someone about the broadcasting on Serbian TV, and this person explained that it was very graphic. They were showing dead corpses from NATO bombing all of the time. It was really a reality show, where NATO wanted their crimes covered up, however, "Milosevic's TV" was exposing it.
I felt a bit sorry for him, because I think that he would quite like to have been able to tell the truth.
(Bob, 29 March 2012 03:43)
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And you know the "truth" do you? Or were you only referring to the CNN "truth"? Bob, your ignorance is shining.
Bob the apologist for the NATO war criminals is back. Hey Bob, are you going to tell me that the 'Racak massacre' was not a hoax? Go ahead, I dare you, and I will fill you with proof that it was a hoax. You and your western imperialists, and your version of reality, which has nothing to do with what actually happened on the ground, is a joke.
You sound like a typical ignorant member of the US State department, who has no clue about the Balkans and base their analysis on CNN reports from Christiane Amanpour, whos is another proven pro-muslim anti-Serb propogandist.
I think you should get together with the self hating Serbs on here, like Danilo and Nenad, and all have a beer together and click your glasses to the greatness of NATO and western imperialism, and have a merry old time.
Cheers!!
Kacin equals NATO bootlicker. Why anyone pays attention to what he says, and why he is quoted by B92 so often, is beyond me.
(ecoman, 28 March 2012 14:57)
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Ummm, I think you should research B92 a little and find out about its foundations and who funded/funds it. It might make things a little more clear.
Besides, pretty much all Serbs know who is responsible for this war crime. The spin is just a sideshow.
It wasn't Serbs who were flying the bombs and terror bombing - it was NATO command that ordered the bombing. And as for CNN being objective - they were notorious for showing scenes of dead Serbs, including children, killed by the Croats and Muslims and claiming they instead were non-Serbs.
CNN even carefully clipped the Orthodox priest from a funeral for 2 Bosnian Serb children and was claiming they were poor Muslim children. A lie.
The mainstream media and its handlers was constantly covering up the terror over Serbs.
Also remember how NATO bombed a train crossing a bridge just after it came out of the tunnel and tried to show that it was an accident by using several times speeded up footage of the train - pretending that NATO pilots didn't see the train and it darted out to quickly.
And NATO also bombed the Albanian convoy in April (killing 86 Albanians, including children) and first claimed Serbs did it until an honest American journalist went to the scene and found U.S. ordnance there, which force NATO to admit but quickly changed their story to the Serbs "tricking" them.
And NATO had straffed that convoy for over an hour. And every NATO bombing had to get approval, they had contact and communications the whole time and they had cameras to record the bombs as they fell.
NATO knew full well their pilots had attacked that convoy yet tried to blame Serbs. They also bombed another Albanian convoy and an Albanian encampment of Albanians who were going back into Kosovo to check on their homes. Seemed NATO were killing Albanians who were moving in the right direction according to KLA orders.
So, no one is answering the question - The RTS director sending innocent people to their deaths:
That's ok with everyone because there are bigger meenies in the world?
(Danilo, 29 March 2012 17:02)
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Please explain to me how the RTS director was sending them to work? Did he call each one and say, sorry but you have to go to work? People just go to work Danio, you don't get sent their. You are just believing the usual lies and attempting to justify a war crime committed by NATO.
I remember when it happened and there was a pretty big outcry at the time, with many internationals calling it a war crime. So now time to answer my question, do you support NATO having immunity to all crimes it commits?
The facts are that Wesley Clark claimed he leaked the bombing plan to a CNN reporter to pass onto the Yugoslav government. The only thing CNN did was to arrange a meeting with Aleksandar Vucic just after the time the bomb hit.
So either Clark lied and didn't tell CNN or he did and they tried to kill a government minister.
Danilo I agree with you that Milanovic was culpable and had a duty of care towards his workers. This type of solidarity attitude of 'us v them' in Serbia is pretty strong so anybody normal (with a heart) would have told their employees not to go into work.
Having said that I think you should think seriously about what constitutes a war crime. I think its perfectly good to maintain a position of being against the bombing of civilian occupied buildings, no matter the circumstances. Those that contravene this have to be investigated for war crimes.
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