"Croatia-Serbia border issue critical"

this new president of croatia is a logical man and is fair and soon i think all the Serbs will return and they will get full autonomy in krajina which is Serbian land in history so this is looking good.

"Josipović told the newspaper that the Serb entity in Bosnia, the Republic of Srpska (RS), came as a result of the Dayton Agreement, and that it is a legal category that cannot be violently canceled, adding that "RS cannot independently change the status-quo either"."

I agree with this. RS cannot declare itself independent. But RS neither can be forced to give up power.

The same of course goes for Kosovo! Kosovo is still a Serbian province. Though ruled by UN!

I like ivo josipovic even though im a serb. I think he is being fair to serbs in all aspects except for the fact of croaties recognition of kosovo i metohija.

What a positive difference between the wording of the new Croatian president, Josipovic, compared to the old one, Mesic. Things can only get better!

It would be wise for Serbians and Croatians alike to realize that blind nationalism is a direct obstacle to progress at this point. What's done is done. Neither country can gain anymore territory while retaining the hope of joining the EU. The Krajina is part of Croatia and Kosovo is its own country as is Bosnia. These are the facts whether you think them fair or not. Anyone opposing this structure is in effect opposing the EU and the US, and the Serbs should have learned by now that that is not a good idea. I am very shocked that after losing two wars in a decade, some voices in Serbia still sound of the same nationalistic fervor that got the country into those messes in the first place. You can whine about Kosovo all you want, but you are better looking to the future and instead of waving your flags over a battered economy.

Why do Serbs believe that they are entitled to an autonomous province within Croatia? Especially with this "krajina" region?

This isn't Serbian land, it never was. This is land where there is a sizable population of Serbs living there. The history of Serbs living in Croatia dates back to when Serbia was taken over by the Ottoman empire. Once this happened, Serbs who did not want to live in an Ottoman-ruled Serbia, moved to battlefront in Croatia to join the Croats in fighting off the Ottomans to, one day, free Europe. Of course, many Serbs just simply settled there.

This does NOT suddenly make the land belong to Serbia. If that is the case, then Turks who moved to Germany in the 1960s for work and make up a sizable population of Germany today could stake a claim to an autonomous Turkish province in Germany, which is ridiculous.

@no rest for the wicked

What are you talking about?

The so-called "Krajina" region in Croatia was ethnically cleansed of Croats and all other non-Serbs by the Serb militant groups during the war.

The Croatian army re-took the land with almost no casualties (ther were a couple hundred deaths which is a remarkalby low casualty rate for this kind of territorial re-occupation). The Serbian militant groups, along with the Serb civilians, left in a scurry. Obviously out of fear for having to possibly answer for the grave crimes they committed for fours years prior. There is even a load of documentation that you could Google on how the Serbian govt organized the departure of Serbs in the region.

Croatia has been workinf diligently to ensure the return of all property to Serb civilians who left the region. The Croatian govt has been evicting any Croats who may have tried to settle into the abandoned property and have made it a focus to re-settle Serbs back to the Croatian regions. The Serb representatives in the Croatian government have been very satisfied.

All this talk about Croats ethnically cleansing Serbs from Croatia is such a croc. Considering what the Serbs in the region have done to Croats, and how Croats have forgiven and forget is admirable.

Croatia is already working with Serbia in improving relations and will be joining EU in two years from now. They should definitely be applauded for this.

There is no way Serbs will ever get any kind of autonomy in Croatia. I am really surprised by naive comments on this page.

Sadly the Serbs of Krajina are unlikely to get autonomy. The Croatians made sure of that by slaughtering thousands in WWII and ethnically cleasing those that survived in 1995.

Has this lost something in translation or are his comments as clear as mud?

@ Matthew

What land is Croatia occupying in Serbia, Bosnia, Slovenia and Montenegro?

Stop making false statements without backing it up.

Also, when did the Austrians give this Croatian land to the Serbs? Yes, they passed a statute giving the land some autonomy and allowing for non-catholics (i.e. Serbs, Russians, Ukranians) to have rights in the area and practice their religion freely.

All this talk about the land being given to Serbia is just a perversion created by Serbs to promote the idea of a Greater Serbia. Ironically, Serbia ended up losing Kosovo (which I agree is definitely a Serbian province), and they lost it the same way as they were trying to take over parts of Bosnia and Croatia.

Re: Austro-Hungary , Krajina and Croatia

To answer some questions raised on the board:

King Ferdinand of Austria gave substantial autonomy to predominantly Kosovo refugees in the Krajina frontier after the battle of Kosovo. Many of these refugees ironicially were led by Bishop Arsenija.

The Krajina frontier had substantial autonomy, equal and if not more compared to Croatia who here under Hungarian rule with substantial autonomy and their own Sabor.

The Dalmatian coast throughout its history was under Italy or Austria. This region was never ruled under Croatia as it was part of the Austrian side of of the empire.

Istria was under Italian or the Venetian empire. This included Cattaro (Dubrovnik) as well as Split.

Bosnia was always the gateway between the eastern and roman empire and the slavs were Christianized between Orthodox and Catholic after the Serb and Croat Slavs migrated to the area. This diversity can be seen with many of the Old Kingdoms, King Tvtrko of Bosnnia was a catholic of both Serb and Croatian descent.The Ottomans later invaded and many Serbs and Croats were converted to Muslims.

It is too bad that two Christian tribes , Croat and Serb cannot act like one nation, instead trying to emphasize differences but the stark reality is that they are brothers and sisters.

Mr Gavin,
one very important part of ANY victory is:
1) to convince the bad enemy (Serbs) that they indeed lost.
(ridiculous UDI's wont suffice)
2) to convince yourself that you won, taking into account the papers where you put your signatures on.

Just yelling at your opponent, calling him for 30 years to accept the "reality" and "move" forward, have been proven insufficient!!! (reality itself moves forward in the meantime!! its not static you know!)
Look at when the Americans were praying in their churches for the sake of good good good SERVIANS in their fight against the bad bad bad bulgaro-astro-germans!! (that's how they were called at the time by the anglo-phones).
At the time the really bad bad bad guys were the Germano-Austrians!
At 1918, the west (in which Serbs had a big position back then) behaved like Austro-Germans were a piece of losers and exagrrated their victory against them.
The Result????? WWII
Cheers

I have high hopes for Mr. Josipovic, although these statements are a bit more nationalistic than what I’ve read previously.

Unfortunately he neglects to mention that Croatia is also occupying areas of Montenegro and Bosnia in addition to Serbia and Slovenia.

Raymond, Krajina was an autonomous province for centuries and the land was given to Serbs for serving in the Austrian army against the Turks. We’re talking ancient history here. If you use those sorts of arguments, you could say Bosnia was all Serb before the Ottoman’s came. Or closer yet, Serbs were the largest ethnic group in Bosnia before WWII. Remind me again how that changed?

We Serbs only want for the same rules to apply to us (Krajina, RS) that apply to the other people’s of YU (Croatians, Slovenians, Bosniaks, Albanians, etc). Croatia behaved EXACTLY the same in Bosnia (with the exception of Srebrenica, a horrible crime), there’s no reason she should be rewarded with parts of Slovenia, Serbia, Bosnia & Montenegro.

Mike,

I’ll be sure to let my brother in law know that he was imagining things, that his home was never destroyed, and that Krajina was never covered in Ustashe graffiti and burnt out Orthodox Churches. I’m sure we both somehow mistook the “Welcome Back” signs for Swastikas. I need to get my eye sight checked I suppose.

You see, I’ve actually been to places like Krajina and Mostar and know what the Croatian government did to innocent civilians. The world may have forgotten that Croatia fought the Bosniaks during a good sized portion of the war, but I haven’t.

Anyways, so glad the Era of Mesic has ended and let’s hope Josipovic and Tadic work together to bring the whole region forward.

It is too bad that two Christian tribes , Croat and Serb cannot act like one nation, instead trying to emphasize differences but the stark reality is that they are brothers and sisters.
(Jugoslavjia)
-
You are too right. Divide and conquer I believe is the term. :)

RE:

When it comes to Croatia's relations with Serbia, any analysis, the Croat president said, "should start with the fact that Croatia was exposed to aggression and that it suffers the consequences of that aggression to this day".

That is a matter of debate as the Serbian republic was not involved directly in any "aggressive act" towards the repbulic of Croatia. In fact, quite the opposite is true. The Croatian republic broke the Yugoslav constitution and illegaly declared a seperate state. Croatia did not want a peaceful resolution, but violent revolution by barrackading JNA barracks and illegaly imporating arms from Germany, Austria and Hungary.

The former President Stipe Mesic is well aware of the planned revolution and was complicent in the fall of Yugoslavia at the expense of thousands of lives.

The United Nations failed to protect the Serbian civilians in Krajina as the so called Operation Storm broke through UN barricades while the whole world watched.

Slobodan Milosevic for his part failed to reign in the Serb Krajina leaders who failed to peacefully negotiate with Croatia.

“Stop making false statements without backing it up.”

It’s common knowledge that Croatia is occupying sections of the Una in Bosnia and parts of the Prevlaka Peninsula in Montenegro. That information is readily available. If you’d like for me to site sources I’d be more than happy to. I often do.

“Kosovo (which I agree is definitely a Serbian province)”

Well, at least you’re consistent. Now when you can put away your nationalist hat and condemn things like Mostar (and Jasenovac) as I did Srebrenica we might be able to have an intelligent discussion. BTW, my brother in law’s house really was destroyed during the war, my wife’s high school was cleansed during Operation Storm. So from the point of view of the average Serb villager, it was a terrifying experience and those who stayed behind were murdered and everyone’s house was destroyed. Certainly Milosevic colluded with Tudjman, but that doesn’t diminish Tudjman’s responsibility in any way.

“when did the Austrians give this Croatian land…”

Ancient history, which is exactly my point. Go back just a little farther and we were all one tribe. I mean, seriously.

Either way you slice it, we’ve been in the area a long long time.

Just out of curiosity. Where do you think Bosniaks came from? Were they Croats, Serbs or some other tribe?

Since the Bosniak identity goes back nearly as far in history as the Krajina region, why should one have a legitimate claim to a region in the area, and one does not?

"They have a right to return, just as they have a right to their property," he said, but added that "whether some policies are protecting those people's interest or merely exploiting the issue" was "another matter".
=====================

Great, so when is Jadranka moving out of the apartment to allow it's legitimate (expelled Serb) owner to return?

this new president of croatia is a logical man and is fair and soon i think all the Serbs will return and they will get full autonomy in krajina which is Serbian land in history so this is looking good.

"Josipović told the newspaper that the Serb entity in Bosnia, the Republic of Srpska (RS), came as a result of the Dayton Agreement, and that it is a legal category that cannot be violently canceled, adding that "RS cannot independently change the status-quo either"."

I agree with this. RS cannot declare itself independent. But RS neither can be forced to give up power.

The same of course goes for Kosovo! Kosovo is still a Serbian province. Though ruled by UN!

Sadly the Serbs of Krajina are unlikely to get autonomy. The Croatians made sure of that by slaughtering thousands in WWII and ethnically cleasing those that survived in 1995.

RE:

When it comes to Croatia's relations with Serbia, any analysis, the Croat president said, "should start with the fact that Croatia was exposed to aggression and that it suffers the consequences of that aggression to this day".

That is a matter of debate as the Serbian republic was not involved directly in any "aggressive act" towards the repbulic of Croatia. In fact, quite the opposite is true. The Croatian republic broke the Yugoslav constitution and illegaly declared a seperate state. Croatia did not want a peaceful resolution, but violent revolution by barrackading JNA barracks and illegaly imporating arms from Germany, Austria and Hungary.

The former President Stipe Mesic is well aware of the planned revolution and was complicent in the fall of Yugoslavia at the expense of thousands of lives.

The United Nations failed to protect the Serbian civilians in Krajina as the so called Operation Storm broke through UN barricades while the whole world watched.

Slobodan Milosevic for his part failed to reign in the Serb Krajina leaders who failed to peacefully negotiate with Croatia.

It would be wise for Serbians and Croatians alike to realize that blind nationalism is a direct obstacle to progress at this point. What's done is done. Neither country can gain anymore territory while retaining the hope of joining the EU. The Krajina is part of Croatia and Kosovo is its own country as is Bosnia. These are the facts whether you think them fair or not. Anyone opposing this structure is in effect opposing the EU and the US, and the Serbs should have learned by now that that is not a good idea. I am very shocked that after losing two wars in a decade, some voices in Serbia still sound of the same nationalistic fervor that got the country into those messes in the first place. You can whine about Kosovo all you want, but you are better looking to the future and instead of waving your flags over a battered economy.

Mr Gavin,
one very important part of ANY victory is:
1) to convince the bad enemy (Serbs) that they indeed lost.
(ridiculous UDI's wont suffice)
2) to convince yourself that you won, taking into account the papers where you put your signatures on.

Just yelling at your opponent, calling him for 30 years to accept the "reality" and "move" forward, have been proven insufficient!!! (reality itself moves forward in the meantime!! its not static you know!)
Look at when the Americans were praying in their churches for the sake of good good good SERVIANS in their fight against the bad bad bad bulgaro-astro-germans!! (that's how they were called at the time by the anglo-phones).
At the time the really bad bad bad guys were the Germano-Austrians!
At 1918, the west (in which Serbs had a big position back then) behaved like Austro-Germans were a piece of losers and exagrrated their victory against them.
The Result????? WWII
Cheers

I like ivo josipovic even though im a serb. I think he is being fair to serbs in all aspects except for the fact of croaties recognition of kosovo i metohija.

There is no way Serbs will ever get any kind of autonomy in Croatia. I am really surprised by naive comments on this page.

I have high hopes for Mr. Josipovic, although these statements are a bit more nationalistic than what I’ve read previously.

Unfortunately he neglects to mention that Croatia is also occupying areas of Montenegro and Bosnia in addition to Serbia and Slovenia.

Raymond, Krajina was an autonomous province for centuries and the land was given to Serbs for serving in the Austrian army against the Turks. We’re talking ancient history here. If you use those sorts of arguments, you could say Bosnia was all Serb before the Ottoman’s came. Or closer yet, Serbs were the largest ethnic group in Bosnia before WWII. Remind me again how that changed?

We Serbs only want for the same rules to apply to us (Krajina, RS) that apply to the other people’s of YU (Croatians, Slovenians, Bosniaks, Albanians, etc). Croatia behaved EXACTLY the same in Bosnia (with the exception of Srebrenica, a horrible crime), there’s no reason she should be rewarded with parts of Slovenia, Serbia, Bosnia & Montenegro.

Mike,

I’ll be sure to let my brother in law know that he was imagining things, that his home was never destroyed, and that Krajina was never covered in Ustashe graffiti and burnt out Orthodox Churches. I’m sure we both somehow mistook the “Welcome Back” signs for Swastikas. I need to get my eye sight checked I suppose.

You see, I’ve actually been to places like Krajina and Mostar and know what the Croatian government did to innocent civilians. The world may have forgotten that Croatia fought the Bosniaks during a good sized portion of the war, but I haven’t.

Anyways, so glad the Era of Mesic has ended and let’s hope Josipovic and Tadic work together to bring the whole region forward.

@no rest for the wicked

What are you talking about?

The so-called "Krajina" region in Croatia was ethnically cleansed of Croats and all other non-Serbs by the Serb militant groups during the war.

The Croatian army re-took the land with almost no casualties (ther were a couple hundred deaths which is a remarkalby low casualty rate for this kind of territorial re-occupation). The Serbian militant groups, along with the Serb civilians, left in a scurry. Obviously out of fear for having to possibly answer for the grave crimes they committed for fours years prior. There is even a load of documentation that you could Google on how the Serbian govt organized the departure of Serbs in the region.

Croatia has been workinf diligently to ensure the return of all property to Serb civilians who left the region. The Croatian govt has been evicting any Croats who may have tried to settle into the abandoned property and have made it a focus to re-settle Serbs back to the Croatian regions. The Serb representatives in the Croatian government have been very satisfied.

All this talk about Croats ethnically cleansing Serbs from Croatia is such a croc. Considering what the Serbs in the region have done to Croats, and how Croats have forgiven and forget is admirable.

Croatia is already working with Serbia in improving relations and will be joining EU in two years from now. They should definitely be applauded for this.

Why do Serbs believe that they are entitled to an autonomous province within Croatia? Especially with this "krajina" region?

This isn't Serbian land, it never was. This is land where there is a sizable population of Serbs living there. The history of Serbs living in Croatia dates back to when Serbia was taken over by the Ottoman empire. Once this happened, Serbs who did not want to live in an Ottoman-ruled Serbia, moved to battlefront in Croatia to join the Croats in fighting off the Ottomans to, one day, free Europe. Of course, many Serbs just simply settled there.

This does NOT suddenly make the land belong to Serbia. If that is the case, then Turks who moved to Germany in the 1960s for work and make up a sizable population of Germany today could stake a claim to an autonomous Turkish province in Germany, which is ridiculous.

@ Matthew

What land is Croatia occupying in Serbia, Bosnia, Slovenia and Montenegro?

Stop making false statements without backing it up.

Also, when did the Austrians give this Croatian land to the Serbs? Yes, they passed a statute giving the land some autonomy and allowing for non-catholics (i.e. Serbs, Russians, Ukranians) to have rights in the area and practice their religion freely.

All this talk about the land being given to Serbia is just a perversion created by Serbs to promote the idea of a Greater Serbia. Ironically, Serbia ended up losing Kosovo (which I agree is definitely a Serbian province), and they lost it the same way as they were trying to take over parts of Bosnia and Croatia.

“Stop making false statements without backing it up.”

It’s common knowledge that Croatia is occupying sections of the Una in Bosnia and parts of the Prevlaka Peninsula in Montenegro. That information is readily available. If you’d like for me to site sources I’d be more than happy to. I often do.

“Kosovo (which I agree is definitely a Serbian province)”

Well, at least you’re consistent. Now when you can put away your nationalist hat and condemn things like Mostar (and Jasenovac) as I did Srebrenica we might be able to have an intelligent discussion. BTW, my brother in law’s house really was destroyed during the war, my wife’s high school was cleansed during Operation Storm. So from the point of view of the average Serb villager, it was a terrifying experience and those who stayed behind were murdered and everyone’s house was destroyed. Certainly Milosevic colluded with Tudjman, but that doesn’t diminish Tudjman’s responsibility in any way.

“when did the Austrians give this Croatian land…”

Ancient history, which is exactly my point. Go back just a little farther and we were all one tribe. I mean, seriously.

Either way you slice it, we’ve been in the area a long long time.

Just out of curiosity. Where do you think Bosniaks came from? Were they Croats, Serbs or some other tribe?

Since the Bosniak identity goes back nearly as far in history as the Krajina region, why should one have a legitimate claim to a region in the area, and one does not?

What a positive difference between the wording of the new Croatian president, Josipovic, compared to the old one, Mesic. Things can only get better!

Re: Austro-Hungary , Krajina and Croatia

To answer some questions raised on the board:

King Ferdinand of Austria gave substantial autonomy to predominantly Kosovo refugees in the Krajina frontier after the battle of Kosovo. Many of these refugees ironicially were led by Bishop Arsenija.

The Krajina frontier had substantial autonomy, equal and if not more compared to Croatia who here under Hungarian rule with substantial autonomy and their own Sabor.

The Dalmatian coast throughout its history was under Italy or Austria. This region was never ruled under Croatia as it was part of the Austrian side of of the empire.

Istria was under Italian or the Venetian empire. This included Cattaro (Dubrovnik) as well as Split.

Bosnia was always the gateway between the eastern and roman empire and the slavs were Christianized between Orthodox and Catholic after the Serb and Croat Slavs migrated to the area. This diversity can be seen with many of the Old Kingdoms, King Tvtrko of Bosnnia was a catholic of both Serb and Croatian descent.The Ottomans later invaded and many Serbs and Croats were converted to Muslims.

It is too bad that two Christian tribes , Croat and Serb cannot act like one nation, instead trying to emphasize differences but the stark reality is that they are brothers and sisters.

"They have a right to return, just as they have a right to their property," he said, but added that "whether some policies are protecting those people's interest or merely exploiting the issue" was "another matter".
=====================

Great, so when is Jadranka moving out of the apartment to allow it's legitimate (expelled Serb) owner to return?

Has this lost something in translation or are his comments as clear as mud?

It is too bad that two Christian tribes , Croat and Serb cannot act like one nation, instead trying to emphasize differences but the stark reality is that they are brothers and sisters.
(Jugoslavjia)
-
You are too right. Divide and conquer I believe is the term. :)