Europe must beware Swiss mistake

Well, it was said once, by St. Ambrose, that "when in Rome, do as Romans do". It's significant to see how many (or few) Westerners believe today in the sayings of their own Saints. For me, as Romanian (Eastern Europe, north of Balkans) it is indeed funny to see how Western Europe is dealing with its Muslim citizens, those who were welcomed yesterday (meaning decades ago, but also the day before today) mostly as asylum seekers, in search for a better life in democracy... It is common sense that world wasn't build in one day; same for a mosque or a minaret. Therefore, it is stupid today to deny bluntly what was tacitly accepted yesterday. This was not the first mistake of the West, and sure will not remain the last.
The bottom line: you sleep in the bed you make for yourself. But, there may be a solution: as Ottomans once converted St. Sofia Cathedral from Istanbul into a mosque (and remained a mosque to this day), maybe some city skyscrapers could be converted in Christian churches; this way everybody will be happy to know that the minarets are smaller than churches :) I know, it sounds stupid, but at least it is creative :)))
I hope nobody will be stupid enough to call me, or generally Romanians, anti-Muslim. We are just more experienced since we fought the Ottomans during same Centuries you, Westerners, were building great things, among them Cathedrals. To make myself crystal clear, I shall illustrate the Romanian approach to such matters by an example: the first steel-reinforced concrete building in Romania is the Great Mosque of Constantza (at the Black Sea), built in 1910-12 as a gift from our King Karl Hohenzollern I to the Muslim community living in the Romanian province of Dobroudja; they are and always were loyal citizens of our state, many of them - Turks and Tatars - choosing Romania over Bulgaria due to Bulgarian persecutions in XIX Century. Btw, its minaret is 47 meters high; I have no idea if it's the tallest building in Constantza, and frankly, nobody cares. Why? Because there is something Romanian Muslims know: that if we, the 95% Orthodox Christian Romanians, ever feel the need, we have enough steel and concrete to build a huge Orthodox Cathedral able to topple any mosque, no matter how high. After all, we have, in Bucharest, the second biggest building in the world - the People's House - today, gratiously baptised as "Parliament Palace"... And this, our Muslims know, and they also know that we know that they know - and THAT means they are really fully integrate into the Romanian society. As a functional part, with rights AND obligations. As anybody should be, in Rome, in Romania, or anywhere, nowadays.

Merry Christmas, to all of you, and a great year of 2010!

And you good sir, and your fellow Swiss, have no right to tell ME what kind of building I build on my legally acquired property and land. If you can build a church with a spire in one corner of the city, surely I can build a mosque and put a tower on top of it.
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(Jan Andersen (DK), 19 December 2009 22:52)

And you have no right to go to someone else's country and demand they change rules to suit you.
If you don't like the laws and rules of a certain country don't go there. Go to a country more suited to your taste.

You don't have any right to make changes in a country which has allowed you to come to. I as a host reserve the right to decide what happens in my home. If I allow you to come to my home I expect you not to smoke, swear or annoy my family.

In other words, respect the country you go to or expect to be thrown out.

Jan you are fighting a losing battle.
If i let you buy a apartment in my building and stipulate that there can't be loud noise or anything else I have the right to that. It is still my building and if you didn't like the rules you shouldnt've bought an apartment there.

You see, I want my building to look a certain way and have a certain atmosphere. Same as a country.
It is so arrogant of you to say that you can move to any country and then dictate to that government what to allow and what not to allow.
That's why I would never migrate to Iran or Syria. I don't happen to have the same ideas and tastes as they do. Not critisising them but just stating the obvious. Now if I move there I cannot expect them to change for me but rather I have to change for them.
Anything less would be sheer arrogance which is what you are advocating.

No other ethnic or religious group in the world demands so much from the new country as the Islamic group and that's a fact.

A city in America where you feel almost like you are in Denmark. Where many of the inhabitants still speak (a sort of) Danish, where traditional Danish food is still served, and Danish traditions are upheld.

They should stop that nonsense and adapt to the American culture?
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(Jan Andersen (DK), 21 December 2009 13:58)
================
NO Jan, I never said what should and what should not be allowed specifically. All I said is that if the host doesn't want to allow something then it is up to him not you.

We have many festivals here in Australia and I enjoy them. We have food from different countries, music, dance and beer fests and I think they are all wonderful but this is all done with approval from the government.

I do not approve one minority constantly trying to force their way into a society which clearly doesn't want it. After all, the society they are trying to bully has every right to decide what is right for them and insist on that.

So again, all is fine as long as the hosts approve.
I hope I am very clear now.

Matthew wrote:

Peggy, supposedly Western countries DO allow complete Freedom of Religion. It’s a violation of the core values of Western Society. This is EXACTLY the type of thing that’s done to our people in Kosovo that makes both of us so angry. I think you’ll find that these rules go against the Swiss constitution and will NOT hold up in court. Even minorities have a RIGHT to challenge unfair laws. Or would you tell 1950’s Blacks in America that they shouldn’t complain about “separate but equal” but instead should move back to Africa?

Please don't compare this to slavery in America. Cheap shot on your part.
No I would not tell the African Americans to move back to Africa because they were brought to America by force to be slaves and then put under so much discrimination. A far cry from someone willingly moving to a country which laws they do not like and then trying to change them.

Also, don't compare this to our people in Kosovo.
Albanians are the ones who moved there in great numbers and then changed everything about the region. Forced their religion and language onto the Serbs.
Matthew, are you trying to say that Serbs are immigrants to Kosovo and Albanians the custodials of that region and Serbs want to change everything about the place now?

Please present a more credible argument here.

I guess Sir Napoleon Sarkozy was more scared to have a similar type of referendum back home than really interested in our vote.

As a matter of fact, we have always welcomed muslims in our country and never had a problem whatsoever.
More than 400 mosques were built all around the country but it is true that lately new construction permits for "simple" mosques was being replaced by mosque with minarets and maybe that was the step that we were not ready to let happen.

As a matter of fact all these late constructions permits were already being refused at a local level, so in essence nothing has changed.

To say that we voted against the freedom of religion is largely exagerated, or does it mean that the muslims can't practice in a mosque without minaret...

Interesting enough that the minaret question never came up during the last 30 years, apparently it wasn't then a problem for so long to pray in a "simple" mosque!

I couldn't care less to pray in a church without bells, or in a mosque, or in an orthodox church, or in a temple... who has the right believe do not need external sign to prove that he/she is a good muslim catholique, protestant, orthodox, buddhist etc..

Peace to all peacefull believers and the hell for the extremits of either side

Hi all,

Free speach and expression is of course a positive fact.

If we are all set to respect that...we also have to respect and accept the decision of a vast majority of voters in Switzerland!

It is easy to point the finger to Switzerland now and to condemn a regular vote! This is clearly an innerpolitical matter and as far as I remember Switzerland is still a sovereign state...so who are we to criticise a voting result in Switzerland?

Shouldn't we all clean our own dirt away before critizising others? How about the US and the Indians, France and the Algerians, UK and India, Netherlands and the Antilles and the list could be much much longer.....

I am Swiss and you would not believe how many people which I know (and I do know quite a large number) have given me a positive feedback on that vote! THIS should tell you something...Hypocrisia is the real problem!

Moslems in Switzerland were always free to practise their faith...this is a proven fact...but it is also a fact that this is Switzerland with its traditions, values, culture and mentality. I think it's only fair to respect that as well.

Switzerland is known for its ability to negotiate compromises. Well in this case we have no problem that Muslims practise their faith but we are asking for a compromise from them to accept this particular vote! That's it..nothing more nothing less.

If the Minarett is the most important thing for a Swiss based Muslim..he is probably in the wrong place anyway!

It seems to me that the whole word acts like little children: we want everything and of course at once.

The world just doesn't work that way and no one is able to satisfy his entourage entirely at all times!

Let's compromise and things will be a littel bit smoother!

@Jan Anderson-I don't read one coment here where people are against freedom of religion. I am thinking that, whatever religion you are, you should concetrate your effort where it is most needed. Problem is that some people are more aware, than others, of complexity of religions in some parts of the world where politics is influenced heavily by religion and missinformation. We in west are sheltered and uninformed, unfortunately, so many wrong moves are made as a result of our naivity.

I wish chrystians would have as much freedom to build churches in islamic world as musloms have in western world. These angry voices should work harder to encourage changes in islamic countries because west gives all religions plenty of freedom, but now, some are getting too unreasonable and pushy. Put all your effort to make a change where it is truly neede the most and that is middle east.

“Matthew, are you trying to say that Serbs are immigrants to Kosovo”

First off, the immigration issue is just a distraction. This rule affects any Swiss citizen who happens to be Muslim, convert, immigrant, whoever or whatever. In theory, you could now make rules banning any aspect of any religion the majority finds annoying.

I think Jehovah’s Witness’ going door to door is extremely rude (worse than telemarketers at dinner even), let’s ban that, ha ha.

The issue is whether the majority should be able to vote on what rights a minority may have. It goes right to the core problem with “Democractic Rule”, Democracy in its worst incarnation is merely mob rule. That is exactly how segregation existed in the US during the 1950’s and the Swiss have now become a countrywide lynch mob.

Peggy, my problem is “Western” countries that pretend to be “enlightened” & “democractic”, that go around bossing other countries on how to treat their minorities, and then go ahead and abuse their own population even worse.

There are shiny brand new Mosques WITH minarets in nearly every town I visited in RS last spring, yet still our people are treated like racists by “Western” countries. Compare that to the situation our churches endure in Kosovo.

I don’t like the way we’re treated either. You think I’d dare ask for our Christmas or Slava off from work? Our local church where I live gets constant noise complaints from the neighbors and they are trying to block us from expanding. I’m a citizen, I’m not an “immigrant”.

Do I think the same rights that should be available to me be available to Muslims?

That’s how I view the issue.

"Western Europe MUST learn to adapt to globalization or their influence in world events will perish with their birthrate. It’s just so painfully obvious."
(Matthew, 24 December 2009 08:57)

You mean Europe must adapt to Islam if it wants to survive.
Matthew, immigration from any other ethnic group or religion has not impacted on the original inhabitants of any country as severely as Islam has.

We've had immigration from all over the world and nobody, and I mean nobody has demanded we change our culture as the Muslims have and nobodey has demanded that we go out of our way as much as we have except the Muslims.

We can't even have our swimming pools left alone for they want us to vacate them for a certain length of time so their women can swim.

You tell me one religion which has tried to change our society and demanded that we all sacrifice our way of life and comfort for them as much as Islam has.
If you want Europe to look like the middle east then yeah, let them replicate that.

The Swiss are only saying, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

I say it again. You have every right to practice your religion or whatever as long as you don't impact on me in any way, for I have the right to a peaceful life.
What is stopping the Muslims from practicing their religion?

"(...) who has the right believe do not need external sign to prove that he/she is a good muslim catholique, protestant, orthodox, buddhist etc.."

And you good sir, and your fellow Swiss, have no right to tell ME what kind of building I build on my legally acquired property and land. If you can build a church with a spire in one corner of the city, surely I can build a mosque and put a tower on top of it.
--

I don't need to respect anything - country or law. I might need to obey the law, or face the consequences. But respect and obedience are two different things. One is earned, the other is forced upon you.

Now, back to the topic. As I said, if I have bought a piece of land - and for arguments sake - let us make it a big piece of land, with no neighbors in sight. What right do anyone have to tell me that I can not build something and put a tower on top of it?? Because that is what this change to the Swiss constitution is about. It is not about not being allowed to build something that is architectural out of line with surrounding buildings. It is not about minarets casting shadows on the balconies of nearby houses or the city square. It is a very plain law: Building of minarets is verboten.

Totally arbitrary, and totally without merit, logic, or reason. Only fueled by ignorant fear.
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@Jan Anderson-I accidently turned on 60 minutes show on sunday at 6PM Chicago time 12/20/09, and there it was, just as I described in my previous remark. Chrystianity in Turkey. One must see it to believe. Distruction of Christianity beyon belief. I sugest you and everyone else, who likes to know the truth about Christianity in muslom world, should search internet for that show. Also examine the freedom of Christianity in Kosovo before you make any more demands from western world, where you get plenty of freedom in every respect, if you obey the law. And to think that Turky wants to enter EU with this kind of record? And to think that America is a frend with such a country?

“It is so arrogant of you to say that you can move to any country and then dictate to that government what to allow and what not to allow…I do not approve one minority constantly trying to force their way into a society which clearly doesn't want it. That's why I would never migrate to Iran or Syria.”

Peggy, supposedly Western countries DO allow complete Freedom of Religion. It’s a violation of the core values of Western Society. This is EXACTLY the type of thing that’s done to our people in Kosovo that makes both of us so angry. I think you’ll find that these rules go against the Swiss constitution and will NOT hold up in court. Even minorities have a RIGHT to challenge unfair laws. Or would you tell 1950’s Blacks in America that they shouldn’t complain about “separate but equal” but instead should move back to Africa?

R

“I don't read one coment here where people are against freedom of religion…Chrystianity in Turkey. One must see it to believe. Distruction of Christianity beyon belief. I sugest you and everyone else, who likes to know the truth about Christianity in muslom world”

If you aren’t against Freedom of Religion why do you bring up “they do it” as an argument? At the very least you imply you are against Freedom of Religion. We are supposed to be better than "them".

Minarets are ugly, phallic looking things, that have no place in the Western world. If muslims need these to be able to pray, than go someplace where the majority likes them. Minarets are an insulting blemish on Switzerland's landscape. Enough with the bleeding-heart liberal BS about freedom of religion, blah, blah. N0n-muslims have rights too - especially when they are the majority.

Minarets, because of their size, height and prominence, by Islamic law they must be higher than any other religious structure in site, are a visual offense to a non-muslim's environment. Switzerland has its foundations in Christianity, should its citizens abandon those foundations to appease its immigrants? If that practice were to persist, in short time there would be no Switzerland as we know it.

“Switzerland has its foundations in Christianity, should its citizens abandon those foundations”?

Winston,

The following CHRISTIAN organizations in Switzerland have come out AGAINST the ban. I think that about covers the “Christian” argument. Did I miss any Churches?

Swiss Bishops Conference
Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches
Association of Evangelical Free Churches and Communities in Switzerland
The Swiss Evangelical Alliance
The Old Catholic Church in Switzerland
The Covenant of Swiss Baptists
The Federation of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Switzerland
The Orthodox Diocese the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople
The Serbian Orthodox Church in Switzerland
The Anglican Church in Switzerland

Here’s what Dr. Herbert of the Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities had to say,

“As Jews we have our own experience. For centuries we were excluded: we were not allowed to construct synagoges or cupola roofs. We do not want that kind of exclusion repeated.”

http://www.euronews.net/2009/11/19/minaret-debate-angers-swiss-muslims/

In regards to the Minaret that first started the debate on the law, that Mosque suffered extreme violence.

“During the law-case about the construction of our minaret, various attacks were made against our association. The windows were smashed by stones twice, and once by a bottle of red wine. Pork was hung on the mosque’s door. Graffitti appeared in the car park, “We don’t want minarets!” We called the police. We followed the law. We trust in Swiss law and order.”

As far as the people behind the ban (The EDU) they say their reasoning is because

“The minaret is connected to Islam which does not include tolerance, religious freedom or any other freedom…saying that there are… too many Muslims… in Switzerland”

That sounds like discrimination based on religion to me. That’s a direct quote from Daniel Zingg.

On 23 December 2009 20:35, Peggy wrote:

"The architecture might not fit the area so that's why we have laws and regulations to take care of that. You cannot simply built something which is totally out of sync with the rest of the environment.
This is where the mosque comes in. Again, what use are out laws tha govern us if they impact on the majority in the negative way simply to please the minority."

Peggy, the ban that the Swiss have now approved have no if's and no but's. There is no wording like "forbidden in areas where the architecture is not compatible with existing buildings", or "where the construction and operating of minarets may cause severe inconvenience". It is plain and simple: Construction of minarets is verboten.

http://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=30430

And that is why it so, so silly.

So yes, sometimes we have a right to question the choice made by a democratic majority.
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(Jan Andersen (DK), 26 December 2009 22:49)

So what do you suggest we do then? Get Stalin back?

You have taken the most extreme examples and tried to link them to what happened here. No comparison whatsoever.
Muslims are free to practice their religion. Nobody is stopping them. Where is the comaprison to Nazis here?

R - for your information:

I was born and raised in Denmark, and can trace my ancestors here back to sometime in the 15th century. I - along with many, many others - attended the local Christian Sunday school as a little boy. I re-affirmed my Christian beliefs at the age of 14. I have never set my foot in Kosovo. I have never seen the inside of a Koran or a mosque.

And I know a fair deal about how Christians are either persecuted or severely limited in how they can conduct their religious life in both the Middle East, China and parts of Africa.

Yet I still believe that we all, Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, and Asgaardians, have every right to think, behave and do however we want, as long as our actions does no harm to another person.

And that right includes the right to build mosques with minarets.
--

if as "The Swiss" says in the first comment "the minaret question never came up during the last 30 years" the question should be raised why is it a question now. some people are thinking that it is the muslims who now all of a sudden insist on building minarets. in reality the question is being raised by the right-wing xenophobic parties all over europe who found a perfect target in european muslim immigrants. they are able to hide behind the mantra of fighting for "european values" against a backward religion, so their xenophobia is less obvious than when they are blaming immigrants for crime or when they are talking about the survival of white race and similar. you may buy it that fascists are all of a sudden fighting for freedom of speech, but i sure as hell won't.

"Matthew" has made some excellent points. you can't decide on a referendum to strip a person or a minority of their constitutional rights. and indeed, if something like this had happened in a non-western country you can imagine what the reactions would have been. i am not implying that muslims are being as oppressed in europe as minorities are in many places around the world. but this is definitely a step in the wrong direction.

Matthew as much as I sympathise with your situation I still firmly belive that you cannot demand something from others which they are not prepared to give.

If people are complaining about the church then there has to be some merit to it. How much noise is coming from that church and how often?
Ever stopped to think that people might like a sleep in on the weekend and don't want to be woken up by any noise. That's why we have laws prohibiting lawns being mowed early on Saturday and Sunday mornings. The noise coming from the church might be on the same level.

We have to accommodate our society as a whole not give a minirity everthing they want at the expense of the majority.

The architecture might not fit the area so that's why we have laws and regulations to take care of that. You cannot simply built something which is totally out of sync with the rest of the environment.
This is where the mosque comes in. Again, what use are out laws tha govern us if they impact on the majority in the negative way simply to please the minority.

It has nothing to do with banning religioon or forbiding certain religion. You can practice anything you want as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on others.

Nobody has banned Islam anywhere or mosques. Everyone is free to practice it but within reason is all they are saying.

Do you belive in majority rules or are you a beliver in minority will dictate to majority?

“Minarets, because of their size, height and prominence… [are a] visual offense to a non-muslim's environment”

Winston,

Here are some minarets in China, you can hardly tell them apart from normal style Chinese architecture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tongxin_mosque.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:5701-Linxia-City-a-mosque-near-Daxia-River-SW-of-downtown.jpg


Here’s one in India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charminar_Hyderabad.jpg

I think these images dispel once and for all the myth that minarets can not be built in the style of country in which they reside.

Here is the very minaret that was the cause of the ban.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moschee_Wangen_bei_Olten.jpg

How is it that much more offensive than a traditional mosque without a minaret?

“Switzerland has its foundations in Christianity, should its citizens abandon those foundations to appease its immigrants?”

NOT an immigrant issue, its effects native Swiss converts too.

Switzerland does NOT have an official State Religion and claims to support religious freedom. There’s no way this law will pass constitutional muster.

You guys are all missing the “call to prayer” noise argument. Try that instead of repeating the same arguments everytime.

Argue it any way you want, bottom line people have spoken.
Do we dismiss the will of the majority? Why have democratic governemnts then?
Let's all be governed by dictgators who "know" what is best for us for we don't know it ourselves.

The considerable majority's decision to vote against minarets was - luckily - a battle fougt on the side scene. No one got hurt, all can practice their religion as up to date. However, this is a signal, that the majority of us Swiss will not tolerate any religion to let its laws rule instead of the secular laws of our coutry. Islam is not secularised and Muslims have to aknowledge that Islam will be refused on all fronts in most countries with the same culture - and from populations which are similarly straightforward.It is irrelevant, whether the silent majority of Muslim is peace-loving. At this point in time Islam speaks with the voice of the Islamists, and they have to be told the truth about our opinion and our firm intentions.

Peggy - so according to you, this should not be allowed:

http://www.solvangusa.com/static/index.cfm?contentID=23

A city in America where you feel almost like you are in Denmark. Where many of the inhabitants still speak (a sort of) Danish, where traditional Danish food is still served, and Danish traditions are upheld.

They should stop that nonsense and adapt to the American culture?
--

“The architecture might not fit the area so that's why we have laws and regulations to take care of that.”

By “area”, you mean the entire country? As Jan already pointed out, isn’t that just a tad excessive?

The regulation is specifically against a particular religious symbol (a powerful one at that), not a general prohibition on architectural design.

“You can practice anything you want as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on others... Everyone is free to practice it but within reason is all they are saying.”

Muslims are the only ones qualified to decide what is “within reason” to practice their religion at a minimum level.

“Do you belive in majority rules or are you a beliver in minority will dictate to majority?”

I live in a country founded by religious exiles from Europe, so yes, I believe very strongly in an individual’s right to practice their religion. Even animal sacrifice and the partaking of illegal drugs are allowed in the US if your religion mandates that. Heck, we had Reverend Ike, who worshiped the almighty dollar. I personally would even support someone worships the Grass God and absolutely must mow their lawn every Sunday morning at 2AM as an offering to their master. However they might have difficultly establishing their religion as legitimate in the court system here.

Point is, in a real established religion, no one outside that religion should dictate what is required to practice that religion. Or if you do choose to discriminate based on religion, at least be honest and upfront about it!

Look, the sad reality is, Western Europe depends on immigration because of their declining birth rates and population. If Western Europe does not find a good way to integrate such populations they are going to continue to have the types of riots and unrest that gripped Paris not all that long ago. Western Europe MUST learn to adapt to globalization or their influence in world events will perish with their birthrate. It’s just so painfully obvious.

"Point is, in a real established religion, no one outside that religion should dictate what is required to practice that religion"

Matthew - as much as I sympathies with individuals rights to practice their religion, I will never give a blanket permission to do whatever you like in the name of religion. Sure, do whatever you like to YOURSELF, but if your religion tells you to put a burn mark on the forehead of every male child in your household, then I will protest and try to stop you from carrying out your religion practice.
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On 25 December 2009 21:21, VukVeliki wrote: "Minarets are ugly, phallic looking things, that have no place in the Western world."

Unlike church-towers? Exactly what was the difference again??

Then he(?) continued: "N0n-muslims have rights too".

Nope! No religions have rights, only humans and animals have rights. Sometimes they choose to use those rights according to their religion. Big difference.
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On 25 December 2009 23:48, Peggy wrote: "Do we dismiss the will of the majority?"

Sometimes. In 1933 the German population made the Nazi the winner of the federal election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election,_March_1933), which in turn paved the way for Adolf Hitler to become Reich Kanzler.

Similarly, although one may question the validity of the vote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Islamic_Republic_referendum,_March_1979), almost everyone voted for the institution of the Iranian Islamic Republic in 1979.

So yes, sometimes we have a right to question the choice made by a democratic majority.
--

"(...) who has the right believe do not need external sign to prove that he/she is a good muslim catholique, protestant, orthodox, buddhist etc.."

And you good sir, and your fellow Swiss, have no right to tell ME what kind of building I build on my legally acquired property and land. If you can build a church with a spire in one corner of the city, surely I can build a mosque and put a tower on top of it.
--

“It is so arrogant of you to say that you can move to any country and then dictate to that government what to allow and what not to allow…I do not approve one minority constantly trying to force their way into a society which clearly doesn't want it. That's why I would never migrate to Iran or Syria.”

Peggy, supposedly Western countries DO allow complete Freedom of Religion. It’s a violation of the core values of Western Society. This is EXACTLY the type of thing that’s done to our people in Kosovo that makes both of us so angry. I think you’ll find that these rules go against the Swiss constitution and will NOT hold up in court. Even minorities have a RIGHT to challenge unfair laws. Or would you tell 1950’s Blacks in America that they shouldn’t complain about “separate but equal” but instead should move back to Africa?

R

“I don't read one coment here where people are against freedom of religion…Chrystianity in Turkey. One must see it to believe. Distruction of Christianity beyon belief. I sugest you and everyone else, who likes to know the truth about Christianity in muslom world”

If you aren’t against Freedom of Religion why do you bring up “they do it” as an argument? At the very least you imply you are against Freedom of Religion. We are supposed to be better than "them".

I don't need to respect anything - country or law. I might need to obey the law, or face the consequences. But respect and obedience are two different things. One is earned, the other is forced upon you.

Now, back to the topic. As I said, if I have bought a piece of land - and for arguments sake - let us make it a big piece of land, with no neighbors in sight. What right do anyone have to tell me that I can not build something and put a tower on top of it?? Because that is what this change to the Swiss constitution is about. It is not about not being allowed to build something that is architectural out of line with surrounding buildings. It is not about minarets casting shadows on the balconies of nearby houses or the city square. It is a very plain law: Building of minarets is verboten.

Totally arbitrary, and totally without merit, logic, or reason. Only fueled by ignorant fear.
--

Peggy - so according to you, this should not be allowed:

http://www.solvangusa.com/static/index.cfm?contentID=23

A city in America where you feel almost like you are in Denmark. Where many of the inhabitants still speak (a sort of) Danish, where traditional Danish food is still served, and Danish traditions are upheld.

They should stop that nonsense and adapt to the American culture?
--

“Minarets, because of their size, height and prominence… [are a] visual offense to a non-muslim's environment”

Winston,

Here are some minarets in China, you can hardly tell them apart from normal style Chinese architecture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tongxin_mosque.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:5701-Linxia-City-a-mosque-near-Daxia-River-SW-of-downtown.jpg


Here’s one in India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charminar_Hyderabad.jpg

I think these images dispel once and for all the myth that minarets can not be built in the style of country in which they reside.

Here is the very minaret that was the cause of the ban.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moschee_Wangen_bei_Olten.jpg

How is it that much more offensive than a traditional mosque without a minaret?

“Switzerland has its foundations in Christianity, should its citizens abandon those foundations to appease its immigrants?”

NOT an immigrant issue, its effects native Swiss converts too.

Switzerland does NOT have an official State Religion and claims to support religious freedom. There’s no way this law will pass constitutional muster.

You guys are all missing the “call to prayer” noise argument. Try that instead of repeating the same arguments everytime.

I guess Sir Napoleon Sarkozy was more scared to have a similar type of referendum back home than really interested in our vote.

As a matter of fact, we have always welcomed muslims in our country and never had a problem whatsoever.
More than 400 mosques were built all around the country but it is true that lately new construction permits for "simple" mosques was being replaced by mosque with minarets and maybe that was the step that we were not ready to let happen.

As a matter of fact all these late constructions permits were already being refused at a local level, so in essence nothing has changed.

To say that we voted against the freedom of religion is largely exagerated, or does it mean that the muslims can't practice in a mosque without minaret...

Interesting enough that the minaret question never came up during the last 30 years, apparently it wasn't then a problem for so long to pray in a "simple" mosque!

I couldn't care less to pray in a church without bells, or in a mosque, or in an orthodox church, or in a temple... who has the right believe do not need external sign to prove that he/she is a good muslim catholique, protestant, orthodox, buddhist etc..

Peace to all peacefull believers and the hell for the extremits of either side

And you good sir, and your fellow Swiss, have no right to tell ME what kind of building I build on my legally acquired property and land. If you can build a church with a spire in one corner of the city, surely I can build a mosque and put a tower on top of it.
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(Jan Andersen (DK), 19 December 2009 22:52)

And you have no right to go to someone else's country and demand they change rules to suit you.
If you don't like the laws and rules of a certain country don't go there. Go to a country more suited to your taste.

You don't have any right to make changes in a country which has allowed you to come to. I as a host reserve the right to decide what happens in my home. If I allow you to come to my home I expect you not to smoke, swear or annoy my family.

In other words, respect the country you go to or expect to be thrown out.

Well, it was said once, by St. Ambrose, that "when in Rome, do as Romans do". It's significant to see how many (or few) Westerners believe today in the sayings of their own Saints. For me, as Romanian (Eastern Europe, north of Balkans) it is indeed funny to see how Western Europe is dealing with its Muslim citizens, those who were welcomed yesterday (meaning decades ago, but also the day before today) mostly as asylum seekers, in search for a better life in democracy... It is common sense that world wasn't build in one day; same for a mosque or a minaret. Therefore, it is stupid today to deny bluntly what was tacitly accepted yesterday. This was not the first mistake of the West, and sure will not remain the last.
The bottom line: you sleep in the bed you make for yourself. But, there may be a solution: as Ottomans once converted St. Sofia Cathedral from Istanbul into a mosque (and remained a mosque to this day), maybe some city skyscrapers could be converted in Christian churches; this way everybody will be happy to know that the minarets are smaller than churches :) I know, it sounds stupid, but at least it is creative :)))
I hope nobody will be stupid enough to call me, or generally Romanians, anti-Muslim. We are just more experienced since we fought the Ottomans during same Centuries you, Westerners, were building great things, among them Cathedrals. To make myself crystal clear, I shall illustrate the Romanian approach to such matters by an example: the first steel-reinforced concrete building in Romania is the Great Mosque of Constantza (at the Black Sea), built in 1910-12 as a gift from our King Karl Hohenzollern I to the Muslim community living in the Romanian province of Dobroudja; they are and always were loyal citizens of our state, many of them - Turks and Tatars - choosing Romania over Bulgaria due to Bulgarian persecutions in XIX Century. Btw, its minaret is 47 meters high; I have no idea if it's the tallest building in Constantza, and frankly, nobody cares. Why? Because there is something Romanian Muslims know: that if we, the 95% Orthodox Christian Romanians, ever feel the need, we have enough steel and concrete to build a huge Orthodox Cathedral able to topple any mosque, no matter how high. After all, we have, in Bucharest, the second biggest building in the world - the People's House - today, gratiously baptised as "Parliament Palace"... And this, our Muslims know, and they also know that we know that they know - and THAT means they are really fully integrate into the Romanian society. As a functional part, with rights AND obligations. As anybody should be, in Rome, in Romania, or anywhere, nowadays.

Merry Christmas, to all of you, and a great year of 2010!

“The architecture might not fit the area so that's why we have laws and regulations to take care of that.”

By “area”, you mean the entire country? As Jan already pointed out, isn’t that just a tad excessive?

The regulation is specifically against a particular religious symbol (a powerful one at that), not a general prohibition on architectural design.

“You can practice anything you want as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on others... Everyone is free to practice it but within reason is all they are saying.”

Muslims are the only ones qualified to decide what is “within reason” to practice their religion at a minimum level.

“Do you belive in majority rules or are you a beliver in minority will dictate to majority?”

I live in a country founded by religious exiles from Europe, so yes, I believe very strongly in an individual’s right to practice their religion. Even animal sacrifice and the partaking of illegal drugs are allowed in the US if your religion mandates that. Heck, we had Reverend Ike, who worshiped the almighty dollar. I personally would even support someone worships the Grass God and absolutely must mow their lawn every Sunday morning at 2AM as an offering to their master. However they might have difficultly establishing their religion as legitimate in the court system here.

Point is, in a real established religion, no one outside that religion should dictate what is required to practice that religion. Or if you do choose to discriminate based on religion, at least be honest and upfront about it!

Look, the sad reality is, Western Europe depends on immigration because of their declining birth rates and population. If Western Europe does not find a good way to integrate such populations they are going to continue to have the types of riots and unrest that gripped Paris not all that long ago. Western Europe MUST learn to adapt to globalization or their influence in world events will perish with their birthrate. It’s just so painfully obvious.

On 25 December 2009 23:48, Peggy wrote: "Do we dismiss the will of the majority?"

Sometimes. In 1933 the German population made the Nazi the winner of the federal election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election,_March_1933), which in turn paved the way for Adolf Hitler to become Reich Kanzler.

Similarly, although one may question the validity of the vote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Islamic_Republic_referendum,_March_1979), almost everyone voted for the institution of the Iranian Islamic Republic in 1979.

So yes, sometimes we have a right to question the choice made by a democratic majority.
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I wish chrystians would have as much freedom to build churches in islamic world as musloms have in western world. These angry voices should work harder to encourage changes in islamic countries because west gives all religions plenty of freedom, but now, some are getting too unreasonable and pushy. Put all your effort to make a change where it is truly neede the most and that is middle east.

Jan you are fighting a losing battle.
If i let you buy a apartment in my building and stipulate that there can't be loud noise or anything else I have the right to that. It is still my building and if you didn't like the rules you shouldnt've bought an apartment there.

You see, I want my building to look a certain way and have a certain atmosphere. Same as a country.
It is so arrogant of you to say that you can move to any country and then dictate to that government what to allow and what not to allow.
That's why I would never migrate to Iran or Syria. I don't happen to have the same ideas and tastes as they do. Not critisising them but just stating the obvious. Now if I move there I cannot expect them to change for me but rather I have to change for them.
Anything less would be sheer arrogance which is what you are advocating.

No other ethnic or religious group in the world demands so much from the new country as the Islamic group and that's a fact.

@Jan Anderson-I accidently turned on 60 minutes show on sunday at 6PM Chicago time 12/20/09, and there it was, just as I described in my previous remark. Chrystianity in Turkey. One must see it to believe. Distruction of Christianity beyon belief. I sugest you and everyone else, who likes to know the truth about Christianity in muslom world, should search internet for that show. Also examine the freedom of Christianity in Kosovo before you make any more demands from western world, where you get plenty of freedom in every respect, if you obey the law. And to think that Turky wants to enter EU with this kind of record? And to think that America is a frend with such a country?

R - for your information:

I was born and raised in Denmark, and can trace my ancestors here back to sometime in the 15th century. I - along with many, many others - attended the local Christian Sunday school as a little boy. I re-affirmed my Christian beliefs at the age of 14. I have never set my foot in Kosovo. I have never seen the inside of a Koran or a mosque.

And I know a fair deal about how Christians are either persecuted or severely limited in how they can conduct their religious life in both the Middle East, China and parts of Africa.

Yet I still believe that we all, Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, and Asgaardians, have every right to think, behave and do however we want, as long as our actions does no harm to another person.

And that right includes the right to build mosques with minarets.
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Matthew wrote:

Peggy, supposedly Western countries DO allow complete Freedom of Religion. It’s a violation of the core values of Western Society. This is EXACTLY the type of thing that’s done to our people in Kosovo that makes both of us so angry. I think you’ll find that these rules go against the Swiss constitution and will NOT hold up in court. Even minorities have a RIGHT to challenge unfair laws. Or would you tell 1950’s Blacks in America that they shouldn’t complain about “separate but equal” but instead should move back to Africa?

Please don't compare this to slavery in America. Cheap shot on your part.
No I would not tell the African Americans to move back to Africa because they were brought to America by force to be slaves and then put under so much discrimination. A far cry from someone willingly moving to a country which laws they do not like and then trying to change them.

Also, don't compare this to our people in Kosovo.
Albanians are the ones who moved there in great numbers and then changed everything about the region. Forced their religion and language onto the Serbs.
Matthew, are you trying to say that Serbs are immigrants to Kosovo and Albanians the custodials of that region and Serbs want to change everything about the place now?

Please present a more credible argument here.

“Switzerland has its foundations in Christianity, should its citizens abandon those foundations”?

Winston,

The following CHRISTIAN organizations in Switzerland have come out AGAINST the ban. I think that about covers the “Christian” argument. Did I miss any Churches?

Swiss Bishops Conference
Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches
Association of Evangelical Free Churches and Communities in Switzerland
The Swiss Evangelical Alliance
The Old Catholic Church in Switzerland
The Covenant of Swiss Baptists
The Federation of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Switzerland
The Orthodox Diocese the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople
The Serbian Orthodox Church in Switzerland
The Anglican Church in Switzerland

Here’s what Dr. Herbert of the Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities had to say,

“As Jews we have our own experience. For centuries we were excluded: we were not allowed to construct synagoges or cupola roofs. We do not want that kind of exclusion repeated.”

http://www.euronews.net/2009/11/19/minaret-debate-angers-swiss-muslims/

In regards to the Minaret that first started the debate on the law, that Mosque suffered extreme violence.

“During the law-case about the construction of our minaret, various attacks were made against our association. The windows were smashed by stones twice, and once by a bottle of red wine. Pork was hung on the mosque’s door. Graffitti appeared in the car park, “We don’t want minarets!” We called the police. We followed the law. We trust in Swiss law and order.”

As far as the people behind the ban (The EDU) they say their reasoning is because

“The minaret is connected to Islam which does not include tolerance, religious freedom or any other freedom…saying that there are… too many Muslims… in Switzerland”

That sounds like discrimination based on religion to me. That’s a direct quote from Daniel Zingg.

“Matthew, are you trying to say that Serbs are immigrants to Kosovo”

First off, the immigration issue is just a distraction. This rule affects any Swiss citizen who happens to be Muslim, convert, immigrant, whoever or whatever. In theory, you could now make rules banning any aspect of any religion the majority finds annoying.

I think Jehovah’s Witness’ going door to door is extremely rude (worse than telemarketers at dinner even), let’s ban that, ha ha.

The issue is whether the majority should be able to vote on what rights a minority may have. It goes right to the core problem with “Democractic Rule”, Democracy in its worst incarnation is merely mob rule. That is exactly how segregation existed in the US during the 1950’s and the Swiss have now become a countrywide lynch mob.

Peggy, my problem is “Western” countries that pretend to be “enlightened” & “democractic”, that go around bossing other countries on how to treat their minorities, and then go ahead and abuse their own population even worse.

There are shiny brand new Mosques WITH minarets in nearly every town I visited in RS last spring, yet still our people are treated like racists by “Western” countries. Compare that to the situation our churches endure in Kosovo.

I don’t like the way we’re treated either. You think I’d dare ask for our Christmas or Slava off from work? Our local church where I live gets constant noise complaints from the neighbors and they are trying to block us from expanding. I’m a citizen, I’m not an “immigrant”.

Do I think the same rights that should be available to me be available to Muslims?

That’s how I view the issue.

Minarets, because of their size, height and prominence, by Islamic law they must be higher than any other religious structure in site, are a visual offense to a non-muslim's environment. Switzerland has its foundations in Christianity, should its citizens abandon those foundations to appease its immigrants? If that practice were to persist, in short time there would be no Switzerland as we know it.

"Western Europe MUST learn to adapt to globalization or their influence in world events will perish with their birthrate. It’s just so painfully obvious."
(Matthew, 24 December 2009 08:57)

You mean Europe must adapt to Islam if it wants to survive.
Matthew, immigration from any other ethnic group or religion has not impacted on the original inhabitants of any country as severely as Islam has.

We've had immigration from all over the world and nobody, and I mean nobody has demanded we change our culture as the Muslims have and nobodey has demanded that we go out of our way as much as we have except the Muslims.

We can't even have our swimming pools left alone for they want us to vacate them for a certain length of time so their women can swim.

You tell me one religion which has tried to change our society and demanded that we all sacrifice our way of life and comfort for them as much as Islam has.
If you want Europe to look like the middle east then yeah, let them replicate that.

The Swiss are only saying, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

I say it again. You have every right to practice your religion or whatever as long as you don't impact on me in any way, for I have the right to a peaceful life.
What is stopping the Muslims from practicing their religion?

On 23 December 2009 20:35, Peggy wrote:

"The architecture might not fit the area so that's why we have laws and regulations to take care of that. You cannot simply built something which is totally out of sync with the rest of the environment.
This is where the mosque comes in. Again, what use are out laws tha govern us if they impact on the majority in the negative way simply to please the minority."

Peggy, the ban that the Swiss have now approved have no if's and no but's. There is no wording like "forbidden in areas where the architecture is not compatible with existing buildings", or "where the construction and operating of minarets may cause severe inconvenience". It is plain and simple: Construction of minarets is verboten.

http://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=30430

And that is why it so, so silly.

"Point is, in a real established religion, no one outside that religion should dictate what is required to practice that religion"

Matthew - as much as I sympathies with individuals rights to practice their religion, I will never give a blanket permission to do whatever you like in the name of religion. Sure, do whatever you like to YOURSELF, but if your religion tells you to put a burn mark on the forehead of every male child in your household, then I will protest and try to stop you from carrying out your religion practice.
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On 25 December 2009 21:21, VukVeliki wrote: "Minarets are ugly, phallic looking things, that have no place in the Western world."

Unlike church-towers? Exactly what was the difference again??

Then he(?) continued: "N0n-muslims have rights too".

Nope! No religions have rights, only humans and animals have rights. Sometimes they choose to use those rights according to their religion. Big difference.
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Hi all,

Free speach and expression is of course a positive fact.

If we are all set to respect that...we also have to respect and accept the decision of a vast majority of voters in Switzerland!

It is easy to point the finger to Switzerland now and to condemn a regular vote! This is clearly an innerpolitical matter and as far as I remember Switzerland is still a sovereign state...so who are we to criticise a voting result in Switzerland?

Shouldn't we all clean our own dirt away before critizising others? How about the US and the Indians, France and the Algerians, UK and India, Netherlands and the Antilles and the list could be much much longer.....

I am Swiss and you would not believe how many people which I know (and I do know quite a large number) have given me a positive feedback on that vote! THIS should tell you something...Hypocrisia is the real problem!

Moslems in Switzerland were always free to practise their faith...this is a proven fact...but it is also a fact that this is Switzerland with its traditions, values, culture and mentality. I think it's only fair to respect that as well.

Switzerland is known for its ability to negotiate compromises. Well in this case we have no problem that Muslims practise their faith but we are asking for a compromise from them to accept this particular vote! That's it..nothing more nothing less.

If the Minarett is the most important thing for a Swiss based Muslim..he is probably in the wrong place anyway!

It seems to me that the whole word acts like little children: we want everything and of course at once.

The world just doesn't work that way and no one is able to satisfy his entourage entirely at all times!

Let's compromise and things will be a littel bit smoother!

if as "The Swiss" says in the first comment "the minaret question never came up during the last 30 years" the question should be raised why is it a question now. some people are thinking that it is the muslims who now all of a sudden insist on building minarets. in reality the question is being raised by the right-wing xenophobic parties all over europe who found a perfect target in european muslim immigrants. they are able to hide behind the mantra of fighting for "european values" against a backward religion, so their xenophobia is less obvious than when they are blaming immigrants for crime or when they are talking about the survival of white race and similar. you may buy it that fascists are all of a sudden fighting for freedom of speech, but i sure as hell won't.

"Matthew" has made some excellent points. you can't decide on a referendum to strip a person or a minority of their constitutional rights. and indeed, if something like this had happened in a non-western country you can imagine what the reactions would have been. i am not implying that muslims are being as oppressed in europe as minorities are in many places around the world. but this is definitely a step in the wrong direction.

Matthew as much as I sympathise with your situation I still firmly belive that you cannot demand something from others which they are not prepared to give.

If people are complaining about the church then there has to be some merit to it. How much noise is coming from that church and how often?
Ever stopped to think that people might like a sleep in on the weekend and don't want to be woken up by any noise. That's why we have laws prohibiting lawns being mowed early on Saturday and Sunday mornings. The noise coming from the church might be on the same level.

We have to accommodate our society as a whole not give a minirity everthing they want at the expense of the majority.

The architecture might not fit the area so that's why we have laws and regulations to take care of that. You cannot simply built something which is totally out of sync with the rest of the environment.
This is where the mosque comes in. Again, what use are out laws tha govern us if they impact on the majority in the negative way simply to please the minority.

It has nothing to do with banning religioon or forbiding certain religion. You can practice anything you want as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on others.

Nobody has banned Islam anywhere or mosques. Everyone is free to practice it but within reason is all they are saying.

Do you belive in majority rules or are you a beliver in minority will dictate to majority?

Minarets are ugly, phallic looking things, that have no place in the Western world. If muslims need these to be able to pray, than go someplace where the majority likes them. Minarets are an insulting blemish on Switzerland's landscape. Enough with the bleeding-heart liberal BS about freedom of religion, blah, blah. N0n-muslims have rights too - especially when they are the majority.

Argue it any way you want, bottom line people have spoken.
Do we dismiss the will of the majority? Why have democratic governemnts then?
Let's all be governed by dictgators who "know" what is best for us for we don't know it ourselves.

@Jan Anderson-I don't read one coment here where people are against freedom of religion. I am thinking that, whatever religion you are, you should concetrate your effort where it is most needed. Problem is that some people are more aware, than others, of complexity of religions in some parts of the world where politics is influenced heavily by religion and missinformation. We in west are sheltered and uninformed, unfortunately, so many wrong moves are made as a result of our naivity.

A city in America where you feel almost like you are in Denmark. Where many of the inhabitants still speak (a sort of) Danish, where traditional Danish food is still served, and Danish traditions are upheld.

They should stop that nonsense and adapt to the American culture?
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(Jan Andersen (DK), 21 December 2009 13:58)
================
NO Jan, I never said what should and what should not be allowed specifically. All I said is that if the host doesn't want to allow something then it is up to him not you.

We have many festivals here in Australia and I enjoy them. We have food from different countries, music, dance and beer fests and I think they are all wonderful but this is all done with approval from the government.

I do not approve one minority constantly trying to force their way into a society which clearly doesn't want it. After all, the society they are trying to bully has every right to decide what is right for them and insist on that.

So again, all is fine as long as the hosts approve.
I hope I am very clear now.

So yes, sometimes we have a right to question the choice made by a democratic majority.
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(Jan Andersen (DK), 26 December 2009 22:49)

So what do you suggest we do then? Get Stalin back?

You have taken the most extreme examples and tried to link them to what happened here. No comparison whatsoever.
Muslims are free to practice their religion. Nobody is stopping them. Where is the comaprison to Nazis here?

The considerable majority's decision to vote against minarets was - luckily - a battle fougt on the side scene. No one got hurt, all can practice their religion as up to date. However, this is a signal, that the majority of us Swiss will not tolerate any religion to let its laws rule instead of the secular laws of our coutry. Islam is not secularised and Muslims have to aknowledge that Islam will be refused on all fronts in most countries with the same culture - and from populations which are similarly straightforward.It is irrelevant, whether the silent majority of Muslim is peace-loving. At this point in time Islam speaks with the voice of the Islamists, and they have to be told the truth about our opinion and our firm intentions.