18 years since fall of Vukovar

Tomislav mercep and his Croatian nationalists started chasing Serbs in Vukovar so the JNA had to step in and stop a potential massacre of Serbs.

What happend at Vukovar should never be forgotten. Serbs on this site continually look for excuses and point the blame at others. The longer the Serbs keep denying what happend at Vukovar the longer the segregation between Croatia and Serbia will continue. The President of Croatia continues to pay his respects to the tragic victims of Jasenovac, why can't President Tadic visit Vukovar once a year and pay his respects to the fallen at Vukovar. Many Serbs who fought in Vukovar in 1991 are now saying that it was an absloute waste of time and lives. No one gained anything from this battle but many suffered. 'Stop the blame game' The only dfference between Vukovar and Srebrenica was the the actual amount killed nothing more nothing less.

If the point of this article is to avoid naming the culprits and the victims of this war crime, then congratulations, you've succeeded in doing just that.

Vukovar - city of heroes. Mi necemo nikada zaboraviti.

Pocivali u miru Bozjem

So how did 200 hospital patients threaten the lives of Vukovar Serbs??

I hope you have a conscience.
(Denis, 18 November 2009 19:05)

So how did these 200 "patients" wear military underwear and were armed with pistols?

I hope you have a conscience.

They weren't '200 hospital patients'. The the prosecution at the trial accepted the defense's information that these 200 men were paramilitaries (i.e. HOS) and were hiding in the hospital pretending to be patients. It is all there online in the ICTY transcripts

Hiding military status and pretending to be a civilian, let alone in a hospital is strictly against the Geneva Conventions of warfare, as is the extra-judicial killing of Prisoners of War.

Meanwhile from the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7017758.stm

"The three were tried over the massacre of nearly 200 Croatian paramilitaries captured during the siege of Vukovar by Yugoslav troops and Serb forces....the tribunal accepting the claim that those killed were members of the Croatian paramilitary and not civilians..."


I do not weep for HOS and the other Neo-Ustasa scum who were executed for slaughtering Serb civilians. Neither should you unless you like wearing black, saluting and saying 'Za Dom Spremeni'.

As for Hadžić, what kind of name is that then?

Tomislav mercep and his Croatian nationalists started chasing Serbs in Vukovar so the JNA had to step in and stop a potential massacre of Serbs.
(CG, 18 November 2009 17:50)

So how did 200 hospital patients threaten the lives of Vukovar Serbs??

I hope you have a conscience.

From my very humble personal experience.

I often drive through Vukovar for three reasons:

- Going Beograd-Osijek-Mohács-Buda avoids (most) Serbian and Hungarian road tolls.
- Often driving through one end of Bp to the other takes longer than from Bp till Serbian border
- The Serbian/Hungarian border itself means sometimes 3-4 hours in the lane to wait because most of the EU-Turkey-Middle East traffic passes through at Röszke/Horgos manned by few disinterested Hungarian border guards.

Every time I drive through Vukovar the experience is difficult to describe. Bullet holes are everywhere. Who was there - they massacred each other like madmen.

RIP to all who passed away on both sides. What for? One way or other, the close-by HR/SRB/HU border will disappear within less, than a decade. These deaths were essentially for nothing.

To Justin; Lets never forget any victims on balcan of any religion in any war. Every one of us is grieving for someone that is killed from someone else. We all know only ourown pain. May they all rest in peace and lets hope it never happens again. Lets all learn true history of Balcan so that none of us feel it is only the one sided fault when in fact everyone contributed and many with the help from outside of Balcan.

I do not weep for HOS and the other Neo-Ustasa scum who were executed for slaughtering Serb civilians. Neither should you unless you like wearing black, saluting and saying 'Za Dom Spremeni'.

As for Hadžić, what kind of name is that then?
(Aleks, 19 November 2009 00:30)

Neither I do. But pardoning 200 criminals is still better than executing one innocent. If there was a single non-Ustasha among these 200, than here you go. Normally you should aid that (indeed) scum till they are not healthy enough to stay trial and than give them 25 years behind the bars if found guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

As for Hadžić?

http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadziluk

Probably means, someone (maybe a son) of someone who went to Hadž or organized Hadž.

We or you not just don't go to Hilandar for Hadž - but we can't even get any (just business on invitation or work) visa to Saudi Arabia. And even with such visa we are permanently banned from Mekka and Medina. I am afraid, disregarding that "ban" would mean some vital body parts be cut off in a pompous Saudi Arabian street ritual. That's a painful and in some cases fatal experience. Hence "Hadž" does not apply to us and you should not try it at home. As a safer substitute to "Hadž" I propose to take closer look at the world's only true medieval gothic Serbian-Pravoslav church in Ráckeve (also known as "Горњи Ковин") near Budapest after visa regime will be abolished. The church is from 1487, the frescoes are from 17th century and feature Tsar Lazar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rackeve

What a load of rubbish. You say it's "not about numbers" and yet in almost the same breath you manage to get Jasenovac linked in with Vukovar and Srebrenica?

Why did you miss out the Holocaust then? What on earth do they teach you out there?

Unfortunately many Croats who still refuse to believe what their paramilitaries were doing to serb civilians long before any fighting began or the JNA mobilized.

To: Aleks, CG

And how about the children and elderly of Skabrnja who were killed point blank on the same day as the fall of Skabrnja? Were these paramilitaries too? Was Luka B, an 80 year old invalid who had his legs broken and ran over by a tank, killed with because he had a pistol? NO! You quote the ICTY, then you should know what happened to them. Over 80 innocents dead.

Before anyone goes and comments I highly suggest that they read this comment (Aleks, 19 November 2009 00:30)

Thank you Aleks, great links.

Vukovar was really terrible, the town suffered completely unnecessary destruction and far too many civilians were killed. There was obviously no military objective, just pure brutality again civils.

May the victims rest in peace.

"Over the nine weeks, workers with shovels and picks turned up 938 bodies, almost half reportedly civilians."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/croats-bury-victims-of-vukovar-massacre-1168387.html

This should not happen to anyone.

To Justin; Lets never forget any victims on balcan of any religion in any war. Every one of us is grieving for someone that is killed from someone else. We all know only ourown pain. May they all rest in peace and lets hope it never happens again. Lets all learn true history of Balcan so that none of us feel it is only the one sided fault when in fact everyone contributed and many with the help from outside of Balcan.
(R, 18 November 2009 19:38)

So true. Let's hope all understand and accept this message.

Thanks for the info Ataman.

My question was of course a bit of a teaser, in particular to draw attention to something that the Media continues to ignore, i.e. that 'The Serbs' are not just Serbs but also contained a not insignificant number of Serbs of mixed-origin, but who declared themselves 'serb' and were accepted as such with no worries.

There were even units in the BSA that were wholly moslem. OTOH hand we have the still official propaganda of Izetbegovic's 'multi-ethinc' entity, eventhough very few non-moslems held posts of any significant relevance (much like the only 'serb' general in the ArBiH).

It still amuses me the (continued) fury of Sarajevo over Kusturica, not to mention after his baptism to 'Nemanja'. Apparently because he is famous and his first name was 'Emir', he was supposed to 'belong' to Sarajevo's elite because only they consider themselves to have the right to carry the true mantle of being 'multi-ethnic'. It's almost as if 50 yeas of mixed marriages in the SFRY never happened. That's the real tragedy...

Tomislav mercep and his Croatian nationalists started chasing Serbs in Vukovar so the JNA had to step in and stop a potential massacre of Serbs.

If the point of this article is to avoid naming the culprits and the victims of this war crime, then congratulations, you've succeeded in doing just that.

What happend at Vukovar should never be forgotten. Serbs on this site continually look for excuses and point the blame at others. The longer the Serbs keep denying what happend at Vukovar the longer the segregation between Croatia and Serbia will continue. The President of Croatia continues to pay his respects to the tragic victims of Jasenovac, why can't President Tadic visit Vukovar once a year and pay his respects to the fallen at Vukovar. Many Serbs who fought in Vukovar in 1991 are now saying that it was an absloute waste of time and lives. No one gained anything from this battle but many suffered. 'Stop the blame game' The only dfference between Vukovar and Srebrenica was the the actual amount killed nothing more nothing less.

Vukovar - city of heroes. Mi necemo nikada zaboraviti.

Pocivali u miru Bozjem

So how did 200 hospital patients threaten the lives of Vukovar Serbs??

I hope you have a conscience.
(Denis, 18 November 2009 19:05)

So how did these 200 "patients" wear military underwear and were armed with pistols?

I hope you have a conscience.

Tomislav mercep and his Croatian nationalists started chasing Serbs in Vukovar so the JNA had to step in and stop a potential massacre of Serbs.
(CG, 18 November 2009 17:50)

So how did 200 hospital patients threaten the lives of Vukovar Serbs??

I hope you have a conscience.

They weren't '200 hospital patients'. The the prosecution at the trial accepted the defense's information that these 200 men were paramilitaries (i.e. HOS) and were hiding in the hospital pretending to be patients. It is all there online in the ICTY transcripts

Hiding military status and pretending to be a civilian, let alone in a hospital is strictly against the Geneva Conventions of warfare, as is the extra-judicial killing of Prisoners of War.

Meanwhile from the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7017758.stm

"The three were tried over the massacre of nearly 200 Croatian paramilitaries captured during the siege of Vukovar by Yugoslav troops and Serb forces....the tribunal accepting the claim that those killed were members of the Croatian paramilitary and not civilians..."


I do not weep for HOS and the other Neo-Ustasa scum who were executed for slaughtering Serb civilians. Neither should you unless you like wearing black, saluting and saying 'Za Dom Spremeni'.

As for Hadžić, what kind of name is that then?

To Justin; Lets never forget any victims on balcan of any religion in any war. Every one of us is grieving for someone that is killed from someone else. We all know only ourown pain. May they all rest in peace and lets hope it never happens again. Lets all learn true history of Balcan so that none of us feel it is only the one sided fault when in fact everyone contributed and many with the help from outside of Balcan.

I do not weep for HOS and the other Neo-Ustasa scum who were executed for slaughtering Serb civilians. Neither should you unless you like wearing black, saluting and saying 'Za Dom Spremeni'.

As for Hadžić, what kind of name is that then?
(Aleks, 19 November 2009 00:30)

Neither I do. But pardoning 200 criminals is still better than executing one innocent. If there was a single non-Ustasha among these 200, than here you go. Normally you should aid that (indeed) scum till they are not healthy enough to stay trial and than give them 25 years behind the bars if found guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

As for Hadžić?

http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadziluk

Probably means, someone (maybe a son) of someone who went to Hadž or organized Hadž.

We or you not just don't go to Hilandar for Hadž - but we can't even get any (just business on invitation or work) visa to Saudi Arabia. And even with such visa we are permanently banned from Mekka and Medina. I am afraid, disregarding that "ban" would mean some vital body parts be cut off in a pompous Saudi Arabian street ritual. That's a painful and in some cases fatal experience. Hence "Hadž" does not apply to us and you should not try it at home. As a safer substitute to "Hadž" I propose to take closer look at the world's only true medieval gothic Serbian-Pravoslav church in Ráckeve (also known as "Горњи Ковин") near Budapest after visa regime will be abolished. The church is from 1487, the frescoes are from 17th century and feature Tsar Lazar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rackeve

What a load of rubbish. You say it's "not about numbers" and yet in almost the same breath you manage to get Jasenovac linked in with Vukovar and Srebrenica?

Why did you miss out the Holocaust then? What on earth do they teach you out there?

Unfortunately many Croats who still refuse to believe what their paramilitaries were doing to serb civilians long before any fighting began or the JNA mobilized.

Thanks for the info Ataman.

My question was of course a bit of a teaser, in particular to draw attention to something that the Media continues to ignore, i.e. that 'The Serbs' are not just Serbs but also contained a not insignificant number of Serbs of mixed-origin, but who declared themselves 'serb' and were accepted as such with no worries.

There were even units in the BSA that were wholly moslem. OTOH hand we have the still official propaganda of Izetbegovic's 'multi-ethinc' entity, eventhough very few non-moslems held posts of any significant relevance (much like the only 'serb' general in the ArBiH).

It still amuses me the (continued) fury of Sarajevo over Kusturica, not to mention after his baptism to 'Nemanja'. Apparently because he is famous and his first name was 'Emir', he was supposed to 'belong' to Sarajevo's elite because only they consider themselves to have the right to carry the true mantle of being 'multi-ethnic'. It's almost as if 50 yeas of mixed marriages in the SFRY never happened. That's the real tragedy...

To: Aleks, CG

And how about the children and elderly of Skabrnja who were killed point blank on the same day as the fall of Skabrnja? Were these paramilitaries too? Was Luka B, an 80 year old invalid who had his legs broken and ran over by a tank, killed with because he had a pistol? NO! You quote the ICTY, then you should know what happened to them. Over 80 innocents dead.

From my very humble personal experience.

I often drive through Vukovar for three reasons:

- Going Beograd-Osijek-Mohács-Buda avoids (most) Serbian and Hungarian road tolls.
- Often driving through one end of Bp to the other takes longer than from Bp till Serbian border
- The Serbian/Hungarian border itself means sometimes 3-4 hours in the lane to wait because most of the EU-Turkey-Middle East traffic passes through at Röszke/Horgos manned by few disinterested Hungarian border guards.

Every time I drive through Vukovar the experience is difficult to describe. Bullet holes are everywhere. Who was there - they massacred each other like madmen.

RIP to all who passed away on both sides. What for? One way or other, the close-by HR/SRB/HU border will disappear within less, than a decade. These deaths were essentially for nothing.

"Over the nine weeks, workers with shovels and picks turned up 938 bodies, almost half reportedly civilians."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/croats-bury-victims-of-vukovar-massacre-1168387.html

This should not happen to anyone.

Before anyone goes and comments I highly suggest that they read this comment (Aleks, 19 November 2009 00:30)

Thank you Aleks, great links.

Vukovar was really terrible, the town suffered completely unnecessary destruction and far too many civilians were killed. There was obviously no military objective, just pure brutality again civils.

May the victims rest in peace.

To Justin; Lets never forget any victims on balcan of any religion in any war. Every one of us is grieving for someone that is killed from someone else. We all know only ourown pain. May they all rest in peace and lets hope it never happens again. Lets all learn true history of Balcan so that none of us feel it is only the one sided fault when in fact everyone contributed and many with the help from outside of Balcan.
(R, 18 November 2009 19:38)

So true. Let's hope all understand and accept this message.