Clinton: Europe did not help Bosnia

And correct the Europeans were, not to give the Muslims more guns. They had plenty of help from fellow Jihadists around the world. The existence of an Islamic state has no place in Europe. Would Muslims support the creation of an Orthodox or any Christian state in the middle East? I think not. Instead, Muslim should learn to integrate into the countries they reside in. Thank God that Clinton is out of office. He single-handedly is the most responsible for the demise of Yugoslavia, and the conflicts and animosity that still exists in the Balkans. He did nothing but bring misery to the region, under the pretense that he was some sort of humanitarian savior.

Politicians like Bill Clinton
never learn from their mistakes and never accept responsibilities for their actions.

Back in the 1990s the Western
policy which led to disastrous break-up of Yugoslavia was the constitutent parts that made up the country were incompatible with one another.Now Clinton is telling us that it is compatible for the ethnic groups that make up Bosnia to
live in unhappy marriage and complains about Europe's attitude towards the Bosniaks.

The problem with Bosnia that Clinton cannot admit is that it simply cannot exist as a state if it is dominated by one of its groups - it will fall apart. Remember in the 1990's there was an attempt by Moslems and Izetbegovic to create a centralized, Moslem-dominated state. It failed because Serbs, and also Croats most of the time, refused to submit. Dayton preserved Bosnia as a state by allowing its three main ethnic groups a huge degree of autonomy.

However,this arrangement is no workable for neither group concerned.It is time to take some bold decisions and let each of the ethnic groups to find their own way.

If the EU wants the Bosnian muslims to join so be it.
A bit more of their fellas strolling European streets and sleeping on metro air-gratings will not seriously change the demographic situation in the Union.
Serbs could join Serbia proper and Croats could also do the same.Insisting on artificial Frankenstein such as Bosnia will only destabilize the region. Serbs have the right to secede.

The goal all along was to create this Muslim Trojan horse state not only to destroy Yugoslavia but to weaken and divide Europe while attempting to win favour with the global Islamic community. The whole world knows that his precious Bosnia (and Kosovo) experiment has failed miserably and yet he continues to parrot the same old line.

Lets see how willing Bill Clinton would be "to help" building a muslim state in the middle of the United states of America!

Europe is generally racist towards Muslims and that is the reason countries like Turkey, Albania and entities like the Muslim-Croat federation and ethnic-Albanian "Kosova" will be excluded from the EU for a very long time if not forever.

Well only what I can add on this pathetic Clinton's "intimate history" (looks like to me rather like Holbrooke's fabricated post-crime denials) is that François Mitterrand was very much right: Bosnia as it is know, before being divided into two, Republika Srpska and whatever it will be the second part, surely does not belong to Europe, as it present constant treat for European peace due to the growing radical Muslim fundamentalism.

Serbs could join Serbia proper and Croats could also do the same.Insisting on artificial Frankenstein such as Bosnia will only destabilize the region. Serbs have the right to secede.
(Leonidas, 9 November 2009 11:42)
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The problem being - what happens to the Muslims in Bosnia? They can't survive in BiH now let alone within a micro state once Serbians and Croatians leave.

The crisis in BiH is not really a problem for the Serbians. 200,000 Croatians have left BiH and they continue to leave en mass. The West's creation (Germany and Vatican included) is having the opposite effect as Catholic Croatians abandon their land. That's why Mesic is getting involved and it's the Serbians that hold the key. How many Croatians do you think will remain in the Muslim Croatian federation once Croatia joins the EU?

BiH can only survive if it forms a union with Serbia. Of course the Croatians still won't be happy but they can always exchange Krajina if they want to separate.

The Croatians can keep Krajina but lose Herceg-Bosna or they can exchange Herceg-Bosna for Krajina. We Serbians just need to play our cards right and I think we will. After all, we are the most tolerant people in the former Yugoslavia.

Europe is generally racist towards Muslims and that is the reason countries like Turkey, Albania and entities like the Muslim-Croat federation and ethnic-Albanian "Kosova" will be excluded from the EU for a very long time if not forever.
(Zoran, 9 November 2009 12:03

Under the Lisbon Treaty countries with the largest populations have the majority
of votes within the union.You
didn't expect the Germans or the French to allow the Turks
running the EU.Did you?

Actually this is one of those rare times when I agree more with the Albanians here.

Europe fearing a "Muslim" state in the Balkans from Bosnia is pure and utter rubbish. Islam did not even form a core part of Bosnian (or "Bosniak") identity until the 1990s. Prior to that, Bosnia has the HIGHEST percentage of people identifying themselves as "Yugoslavs". As for Albanians, I have a lot of problems with their historical memory, but the one thing that is incredibly hard to discount is their relative indifference to relgion. I've never met an Albanian that would turn down a drink, and I've never seen any inter-Albanian dispute over religion. Albanians are for the most part atheist, and within Albania, Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim, and atheist basically co-exist. Furthermore, the very same "European" states that supposedly feared a Muslim state in the Balkans, currently house the largest percentage of north African and Middle Eastern Muslims in their own backyards. A "Muslim" country in Europe? Germany is more likely to be the Muslim threat than Albania or Bosnia. The 9/11 plotters came out of Hamberg. Where are the hotbeds of radical Islamic fundamentalism? The streets of London and Paris, not the streets of Sarajevo or Tirana.

But Bosnia is not a muslim state, because if you put the Croat and Serb populations together, you have more than the Bosniaks.

Still, the arrangement with the White Schengen is a good thing, Europe is being flooded with vast amounts of muslim immigrants as it is, to open up to more would only mean the Europe's end in 20 or so years. This sort of thing is fine in America, a land based on immigration, but ethnic states in Europe should be much stricter with immigration from Africa and Asia, they are only doing themselves harm.

Europe is generally racist towards Muslims and that is the reason countries like Turkey, Albania and entities like the Muslim-Croat federation and ethnic-Albanian "Kosova" will be excluded from the EU for a very long time if not forever.
(Zoran, 9 November 2009 12:03)

How is Albania a muslim country? Do you have any idea how much albanians give a crap about islam. The strongest opposition of the Islamic influence in the Balkans is coming from the Albanian political and intellectual elite, who speak openly against the islamic shovinism. Albania is not only the most tolerant but also way more secular than Serbia and Greece where the church institutions are even involved in politics and christianity is very important in defining your identity.

The terrorist anti-western groups in the Balkans so far existed in Greece, Novemeber 17 organization which were active for 30 years, and serbs are well known for the massacres of thousands of people, are accused for genocide, and a slaughtory not seen in decades.

The so called arms embargo was only pretend. In effect it applied to the Serbs, while the other republics got as many arms that they wanted.

Clinton admitted to Branch that allies in Europe blocked the U.S. proposals for ending the arms embargo for Bosnia, “because more weapons would mean more bloodshed,” but Clinton said that it had more to do with Europe’s stance that a Muslim state within the continent would be “unnatural.”

It had more to do with the feeling that he is a warmonger. I only wish they had continued with that stance and told he where to go.

Europe is generally racist towards Muslims....
(Zoran, 9 November 2009, 12:03)

I think you are right. Good to see Clinton expose the E.U for what they are. If it wasn't for U.S and U.K Bosnia and Kosovo would be wiped out. I have four words for Europe: Genocide, Srebrenica, Responsible, Europe!

That's why Bosnia is not being split. As for Kosova and Albanians: no radicalization or you will see the 95% of Albanians dealing with the few Jihadists on their own. You see 10 times more covered people in Europe than Albania or Kosova. They are 100's of churches in Albania and a Mother Teresa Cathedral is being built in the middle of Prishtina. http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/7452/katedraljashqiptare1rs0.jpg

Turkey is different, it has 80 million people, Bosnia etc are already in Europe and with a few million people, if left outside EU radicalization would be much more intensive.

It sucks for Serbia because you will have to wait to get in with the rest, i.e. Bosnia and Albania...

For one thing, these "Muslims" in Bosnia are fellow Slavs that converted due to a prolonged occupation. Nothing new there. It's happened everywhere else in the world.

Second, it sounds like you're completely blind to the difference between European Muslims and the lot from Pakistan, Middle East and North Africa.
One group is born and bred in Europe, been exposed to Western concepts and lifestyles from birth...the other comes from largely uneducated, extreme conservative cultural backgrounds, who thanks to its own ignorance and the "helpful" attitudes of enlightened "Europeans" like Miterrand and the lot here, remain marginalized.

Third...stop blaming Clinton because the Balkans in general and Yugoslavia in particular is filled with bigoted, nationalistic idiots. Did the U.S. elect Tudjman? No...Croats did. Did the West elect Izetbegovic? No...Bosniaks did. Did Clinton elect Milosevic, Karadzic and the rest of the low life scum passing for politicians? No...the Serbs did.

How is Albania a muslim country?
(Denis, 9 November 2009 16:58)
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The latest study by the Pew Research Centre (released in Oct this year) states that Albania has 80% Muslims.

You can read the report here - Check http://pewforum.org/newassets/images/reports/Muslimpopulation/Muslimpopulation.pdf

In Europe, Russia has the most Muslims, followed by Germany, France, Albania and then the entity of "Kosova", followed by the UK and BiH.

Regardless of whether this is true or not, the perception in Europe is that Albanians are mostly Muslims.

Europe is generally racist towards Muslims and that is the reason countries like Turkey, Albania and entities like the Muslim-Croat federation and ethnic-Albanian "Kosova" will be excluded from the EU for a very long time if not forever.
(Zoran, 9 November 2009 12:03) you must be on tablets. let me remind you that europe bombed serbia and not albania and turkey.europe problem is that every country in balkan has the 19century mentality and thats their problem with balkans state.never mind the corruption and crime.clinton is right.european dint care about any country in balkan and that why the left the criminels to kill and steal.

Denis,

"Albania is not only the most tolerant but also way more secular than Serbia and Greece where the church institutions are even involved in politics and christianity is very important in defining your identity."

Who destroyed all those Serbian churches in Kosovo?

Clinton is such a liar. Always has been, always will be.

The US intelligence services spied on UNPROFOR (General Rose), provided intercepts, satellite data, money and weapons to both 'Bosnia' and 'Croatia', the latter along with the Germans, the UK etc. normally via third parties, i.e. Iran who flew 747s full of weapons directly into Zagreb, the HVO getting 20-40% and the remainder going to ArBih.

The CFE (Conventional Forces Europe) treaty and its amendments restrict the numbers, types deployment of
weapons/systems in Europe since the early 1990s, but there was absolutely nothing in it about 'giving away' weapons which is what Germany did with a good part of its ex-GDR stocks which were used to re-arm Tudjmans neo-ustasa state.

What Clinton is complaining about is that Europe did not do as it was told by the US, though US 'help' proved to be disastrous when Zimmerman promised Izetbegovic US support regardless of whether he signed the EU's Cutilhero peace plan. Izetbegovic of course didn't and plunged Bosnia into war, something that Fikret Abdic would never have done.

The US believes in 'simple' solutions whereas the Europeans knew there were no simple solutions to the Balkans. That Europe failed in their last hour was more a sign of European disunity confidence, apart of course for the Germans and the Austrian governments who were
very clear from the beginning what they wanted.

Zoran, when you say that "Europe is generally racist towards Muslims" don't rush. You have to put the facts into balance. Check out the number of Christians and churches in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, also what goes on with Christian communities in Syria, Egypt, Algeria and Turkey. By comparison, check out the situation of Muslims in Europe: Germany, France, UK, Spain and yes, many "Balkans" states.

A few days ago I was reading about one of these Muslim clerics in the UK who was openly urging the Queen to convert to Islam (?!). Let it be Freedom of Speech. Now, what would you think would happen to some poor fellow suggesting king Fahd converts to Christianity? Compare the concepts, compare the level of tolerance, of freedom of speech and generally the attitudes and values. Where would you rather live?

Of course, it seems that particular fellow has now forgotten the time when he was impatiently waiting his turn to get his visa application processed for the UK. When he was later queuing up, full of hope, for many hours to the Home Office to get his residence application result. Why do you think he left his perfect life in his perfect Muslim country to move to the UK? And yet, now he wants to change that very UK into the other type of society that he, himself has once left behind without looking back (at that time). He has now become a preacher, you see?

So much about "racism".

This is all a nonsense. Yugoslavia did not have to break up at all, but once the rot started (I suspect a glee from the west in general at seeing communist systems fail miserably and a joy from certain Germans who wanted to see an independent Croatia) there was no stopping the local prejudices taking hold.

Who can blame a Bosnian of the Christian tradition vehemently reacting against a Muslim take over? After the Ottoman impositions that is scarcely surprising. Unfortunately however, the west did not stamp on the motivations of Yugoslav politicians who wanted to encourage the break up because of their own parochial ambitions. Mistake.

Time to rattle a few more cages. Why not bring back a unified Yugoslavia and attack the bitter nationalism that caused the current load of rubbish!

The irony is that the EU ambition for an equitable multi-ethic Europe is not so different from the brotherhood an unity that was a main-stay of communist Titoism!

To Denis, how is Albania not Muslim?

70% of the population is Muslim. A couple of years ago an Islamit party tried to register and polls reported by RFE/RL indicated they would have at least 15% support.

The constiution didn't allow them to register.

Furthermore. Their have been report of increasing Islamization. Christians are now proably less then 20% of the population.

Kosovo's treatment of non-Albanian minorities, Serbs, Gypsies, Bosniaks and Gorani show this so-called Tolerance.

Furthermore November 17, is an anti-religoius anarchist gorups. And so what if Serbs are associated with massacres, Albanians will be as soon as Kosovo heats up but they are already associated with drug trafficing, Sentax, bombs, terrorism, crime and prostitution.

(Denis, 9 November 2009 16:58)

Albania, whether you like it or not, is majority muslim. Just like Serbia is Orthodox and Italy is Catholic. That being said, it doesn't mean that there are no Catholic or Orthodox Churches in Albania. Of course there are, some existed even before the Shqipërs migrated to the Balkan penninsula around the 14th century. The Sicilians who brought them over, converted them to Catholicism so that they could help 'fight the Turks'. This all soon changed when more and more Turks started arriving and it made sense for the Shqipërs to convert back to their 'original' religion.

were kicked out and escaping from oh-so-civilized christian spain in the 15th century and beyond, many of them ended up in bosnia, which accepted them, gave them safety and solace. what a difference from so many other supposedly civilized nations of europe.

thank you.

roberto
frisco
(roberto, 9 November 2009 21:54)
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Does your history skip WWII Bosnia? Prior to WWII there were 14,000 Jews in BiH with 10,000 in your beloved Sarajevo - Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina . During WWII the Croatians along with your friends the Bosnian Muslims murdered 10,000 Jews along with hundreds of thousands of Serbians - Check http://tinyurl.com/yhe5c9q . The 4000 Jews that survived did so by fighting with mainly Serbians or Russians.

Have you ever asked for an apology from them or have they ever apologised? Nope! Didn't think so. It's no wonder Israel is on Serbia's side.

Lies and deception. This is what to expect from the likes of Holbrooke and Clinton. But their politics actually has an even more sinister side effect. It has flooded Europe with muslims. Sweden, Holland, Switzerland and many more countries have gigantic problems with muslims in general, especially with criminal albanians and arab jihadists. All this can be blamed on Bill Clinton, Tony Blair and the Bush administration that started the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which are now flooding Europe with even more muslims. They have planted the seeds of destruction and it was done on purpose. This has been a coherent politics from their side for the last 20 years. Flood Europe with muslims. Very sinister and very destructive.

What does Bill consider to be "help"? And by the way, who started the war in the first place? A lot of folks who visit B92 will probably say the West started it, but come on. Yugoslavia was a mess after WWII and the place was destined to blow once Tito had departed and the constituent republics were left to squabble over a land that wasn't exactly prosperous. Tell me, why was it was so important to the West to see Yugoslavia crumble? The Berlin Wall had already done that and the Soviets were on their knees. If anything, the disintegration of Yugoslavia would mean a headache no in the West would need: millions of refugees, the pressure to put Western troops (among others) in harm's way in the form of UN peacekeepers, billions of dollars of delinquent debt from the Tito era that would remain that way, and on and on and on.

Which brings us to an example of how Europe actually did make an effort to help: most of UNPROFOR was made up of soldiers from UK, France, Spain and Holland.

And let's not forget the countless efforts to negotiate a peaceful settlement led by European diplomats -- efforts that proposed plans closely resembling Dayton that Bosnian politicians repeatedly rejected from 1992 - 1994. Heck, some of these guys from BiH were barely able to show up for the negotiations. UNPROFOR General Rose had to pound on Karadzic's hotel room door -- in the middle of the day -- in Geneva in 1994 to get the severely hungover Bosnian Serb president out of bed for peace talks. Four years later, the Serbian delegation at Rambouillet was accused of the same drunken, disorderly conduct.

The truth is, the Europeans tried. Maybe imperfectly, but they tried. And, in Clinton's defense, so did the Americans. People from ex-Yu can complain all they like about the results of these efforts, but the 1990s wars were disasters that they themselves created.

I wonder what the Serbs and Serbia their "neighbor" were doing in the country of Bosnia i Herzegovina Republic (not really) that it needed help any guess.

I think you are right. Good to see Clinton expose the E.U for what they are. If it wasn't for U.S and U.K Bosnia and Kosovo would be wiped out. I have four words for Europe: Genocide, Srebrenica, Responsible, Europe!
(BalkanUpdate, 9 November 2009 16:00)

yes, we of the intl's bear a lot of responsibility for allowing and thus facilitating those evils, and i never take that lightly.

i have mixed feelings about pres clinton's message. during his 1st election campaign, he promised to do "something" about the situation in bosnia. it was already quite obvious for those who had their eyes and ears open. when he tried to intervene, he was opposed, esp. by the british and french, which is unforgivable. thatcher, who knew milosevic for exactly what he was was out of power by then, sad to say. mitterand's role was pathetic; but then later it turned out he had been a collaborator in "the day." what a surprise.

but it was my feeling that clinton gave in way too easily, knowing that the bosnians (mainly bosniaks) would be mass murdered. he could have pushed much harder, WE could have pushed much harder, instead of just all of the chitty chat. by the time of the real intervention, 100,000 people were dead -- 10,000 alone in sarajevo, 1000 children. 8,000 in srebrenica. a lot of blood, not just on the hands of the executioners, but of ours as well.

i don't believe it was just about "The Muslims", the so called menace, the triangle??? i haven't even heard such language in years, haven't wanted to. other places, incl and esp rawanda, we sat and watched, even after all the warnings. tisk tusk, as long as it is happening to the OTHER. in the 40s it was my people (and others) who were the OTHER. so the pattern was already well in place.

a great shame on europa, europa.

as for Bosnia -- most of you have no idea of what you speak. bosnia has always been multi-ethnic, long before such a thing was politically correct. when jews -- my people -- were kicked out and escaping from oh-so-civilized christian spain in the 15th century and beyond, many of them ended up in bosnia, which accepted them, gave them safety and solace. what a difference from so many other supposedly civilized nations of europe.

if europe is so short-sighted as to separate and marginalize the bosniak people, they will see it backfire on them 100 times. there are already some such possible indications. a result of 4 years of hell, and the utter and widespread feeling that they had and have been abandoned by the world.

that is why, time after time, when i have met and spoken with these people of bosnia, they say: we are glad that you, as a jew, have come to our country -- that you, as a jew can understand us, in a very basic way. that you, as son of a holocaust refugee, can have some sense of an Omarska, a Srebrenica... that is not a bunch of muslim fanatics, believe me.

so yes, there is islamophobia throughout europe, and in the US, and in these pages. but we need to work on our prejudices, not just accept them.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

serbs are well known for the massacres of thousands of people, are accused for genocide, and a slaughtory not seen in decades.
(Denis, 9 November 2009 16:58)

but that's part of the same problem. perceptions many westerners have about certain groups are not always justified. both serbs and albanians have image problems. serbs because of the wars in the 90's and albanians because they are indeed perceived as muslims with everything you get with that prejudice. it is incredibly stupid to see serbs trying to appeal to anti-muslim prejudice and albanians trying to appeal to anti-serbian prejudice on this site, yet that's happening constantly. standing united against anti-balkanese prejudice would be too much to ask from you guys, it seems. your comment was actually quite good until you started serb-bashing.

and i don't think clinton is being honest. the eventual settlement of the conflict in bosnia was very similar to what europeans had proposed, but bosniaks rejected (probably with the us support). a lot of bloodshed would have been avoided in that way. i do not think americans had the well-being of bosnians in their mind when conducting their policies, but that would be a too long story. i also don't get the logic of those who say that americans or europeans are guilty for the bloodshed. sorry, but those who did the killing are guilty. europeans and americans may have been acting politically irresponsible, but ultimately it was the local people who were killing each other.

Mr. Clinton shouldn't speak about his past wrongs e.g. Bosnia, unless he is willing to atone for his crimes against humanity and begin to make amends for all his intenational atrocities. I don't know how he can make such amends though, as they are too numerous and evil to even contemplate.

MB,Ireland

Seem to recall Madelaine Albright running the show!
Where was Clinton than?

Shame, shame, shame to all commentators. Not even one to feel any remorse for the dead Bosnians (Serbs, Muslims, Croats and other). If, only if Europe had done more to prevent bloodshed on their doorstep there would be no devided Bosnia, be that "Muslim" Bosnia, "Serb" Bosnia or other. They left no choice for Bosnians but rely on their Muslim brethren. The other choice was for USA to take things on their hands and one more time save Europe from stupid wars.
Anyway, Is it not enough what is done to the Muslims in Bosnia -their territory is brought down to the minimum, half a million dead and uprooted, destroyed infrastructure, no decision-making power?
You can not ignore the Muslims in Europe Just as you can't ignore Jews in Middle East. They are there, they belong there so learn to deal with it. Anything other than that is racist, murderous, inhumane.
As far as Turkey, Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia in EU history taught us in Europe never say never.
Don't forget there are more Muslims in France that in Bosnia.

'The strongest opposition of the Islamic influence in the Balkans is coming from the Albanian political and intellectual elite, ...'

This is the impression of Albania Western readers take away from the novels of Kadare, one of the few sources available in English on how Albanians view their history. The English translations vary in quality, but fortunately "The Three-Arched Bridge" was wonderfully done. I don't remember plots well, but the image presented by the narrator, a 15th?-century monk, of the long shadow of the minaret slowing extending across the Albanian landscape was as unforgettable as it was chilling. I wouldn't suggest that jihadists try recruiting in either Albania or Kosovo.

Whether you're in the former Yugoslavia or elsewhere in the world,do what I do, have preferences for Muslims & non-Muslims who are both decent and easy to relate to instead of Muslims & non-Muslims who are opposite in one or both ways.Besides no one should accuse me of being religiously biased nor being a religious favourtist.

Does he know something about some sort of mass exodus of Serbs and Croats from Bosnia in the near future?
(Mirub Jager, 9 November 2009 18:12)
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No, not a mass exodus but there are calls for the Serbian and Croatian parts of BiH to join their respective states thus leaving an unsustainable Micro BiH containing mostly Muslims. My point is that only Serbia is tolerant enough to have them included in a Union with us. We already have 200,000 Bosnian Muslims in the Serbian Sandžak region.

Mike, whether Bosnian Muslims or Albanians are strong followers of the Muslim Faith is not so important here. It's the perception that matters and most of Europe considers them Muslims. However, we all know Albanians will play whichever card suits them best - whether it's Muslim, Christian or Athiest but at the end of the day it's just the same old Nationalistic card.

C'mon guys, what's wrong with being moslem in Europe. All the great religions are good, what is bad and need to be confronted is fanaticism.

Zoran does not make sense at all. He just gaved up Krajina (Sure he is not from there), Created a new union of states (if Serbia and Montenegro couldn't stay together what are the chances of Bosnia and Serbia Union to stand as one). Croatia gave up on Hercegovina (they fought a war to claim it).

He says: "Muslims in Bosnia? They can't survive in BiH now let alone within a micro state once Serbians and Croatians leave".
Does he know something about some sort of mass exodus of Serbs and Croats from Bosnia in the near future?

It is all in your head. Leave them alone. They are a new country. There are more than a century old states around Bosnia and they don't seem to do any better either.
I'm sure you wish you could turn back the history clock to early 1990's. To really cleans Bosnia.

"if you put the Croat and Serb populations together, you have more than the Bosniaks."

Keep telling yourself that. Hehe, funny.

Current demographics are: 56% Bosniak (with a rapid sustained growth), 11% Croat (on a decline) and all others (on a decline). By the way, don't forget the 700,000 strong Bosniak diaspora whose children will come back and that number will then triple, whereas Serbs will keep clinging to it's "mother"-Serbia and Croats will do the same with Croatia, all while at the same time Serbia and Croata doesn't want them, hehe, too funny.

The Bosnian government wanted a fairy-tale.

C'mon guys, what's wrong with being moslem in Europe. All the great religions are good, what is bad and need to be confronted is fanaticism.
(G.Z.Basha, 10 November 2009 03:58)

Well actually, all religions are bad ( especially Christianity and Islam) and serve no purpose in life whatsoever. So I find a lot of 'wrongs' with people who believe in all religions, but the problem I have is when people of one stupid believe hate people of another stupid believe thinking their stupid believe is better. Oh the irony!

Branch and Clinton good friends sharing the loyalties to single minded views on the book aimed at American market. It's all to do with being in the right place at the right time and you scratch my back I'll sractch yours.

So easy to say anything after the event. Suppose book number 2 is on the way on "How we saved democracy and Kosovo" - Sure Europe has lots to say.

Roberto, the fact that so many denounced your deep-felt emotions could show us that on the Balkans a broad part of its population still is anti-semitic and islamophobic. It is a fact which we also can discover in the rest of Europe or North-America, though Clinton tries to make Europe the only scapegoat.

For sure France played a very strange role in those days. I know that it was disappointing for the Dutch to find out that their UN-soldiers in Srebrenica had asked for support from France, but didn't get it.

More disappointing was the fact that the strong opposition in Serbia against Milosevic crumbled.

After all, we are the most tolerant people in the former Yugoslavia.
(Zoran, 9 November 2009 16:05)

Please tell this to the Hungarians of Vojvodina.
(Joe, 10 November 2009 22:12)

Well most of them will agree with Zoran's statement.One thing is the reality on the ground and another what "hungarian" media creates to detract attention from very grave local problems in hungary .

Thank you so much Roberto. A brilliant lesson for all Europeans. It would be great if you could write a book about Bosnia...Thanks again.

Yaroslav

You ever been to Albania? Why don't you go next summer and find out for yourself?

As far as I know, there are no visas for Serbs during the summer months (and hopefully both countries will get rid of them permanently soon)

After all, we are the most tolerant people in the former Yugoslavia.
(Zoran, 9 November 2009 16:05)

Please tell this to the Hungarians of Vojvodina.

Bravo! NZ recognizing Kosovo and breaking international rights just a few weeks before the trial at ICJ.

"Clinton said that it had more to do with Europe’s stance that a Muslim state within the continent would be “unnatural.”

He also revealed that former French president François Mitterrand openly said that Bosnia is not a part of Eu"

What this says to some is that Europe wanted Kosovo independent, not because of the oppression but because they if Kosovo was seperate, they could keep a Muslim state out of Europe and let Serbia in.
Very sad reasoning and extremely racist of Mitterand. No wonder Bosnia and the area of Kosovo aren't seeing progress.

Europe is generally racist towards Muslims and that is the reason countries like Turkey, Albania and entities like the Muslim-Croat federation and ethnic-Albanian "Kosova" will be excluded from the EU for a very long time if not forever.
(Zoran, 9 November 2009 12:03)

How is Albania a muslim country? Do you have any idea how much albanians give a crap about islam. The strongest opposition of the Islamic influence in the Balkans is coming from the Albanian political and intellectual elite, who speak openly against the islamic shovinism. Albania is not only the most tolerant but also way more secular than Serbia and Greece where the church institutions are even involved in politics and christianity is very important in defining your identity.

The terrorist anti-western groups in the Balkans so far existed in Greece, Novemeber 17 organization which were active for 30 years, and serbs are well known for the massacres of thousands of people, are accused for genocide, and a slaughtory not seen in decades.

And correct the Europeans were, not to give the Muslims more guns. They had plenty of help from fellow Jihadists around the world. The existence of an Islamic state has no place in Europe. Would Muslims support the creation of an Orthodox or any Christian state in the middle East? I think not. Instead, Muslim should learn to integrate into the countries they reside in. Thank God that Clinton is out of office. He single-handedly is the most responsible for the demise of Yugoslavia, and the conflicts and animosity that still exists in the Balkans. He did nothing but bring misery to the region, under the pretense that he was some sort of humanitarian savior.

Europe is generally racist towards Muslims....
(Zoran, 9 November 2009, 12:03)

I think you are right. Good to see Clinton expose the E.U for what they are. If it wasn't for U.S and U.K Bosnia and Kosovo would be wiped out. I have four words for Europe: Genocide, Srebrenica, Responsible, Europe!

I think you are right. Good to see Clinton expose the E.U for what they are. If it wasn't for U.S and U.K Bosnia and Kosovo would be wiped out. I have four words for Europe: Genocide, Srebrenica, Responsible, Europe!
(BalkanUpdate, 9 November 2009 16:00)

yes, we of the intl's bear a lot of responsibility for allowing and thus facilitating those evils, and i never take that lightly.

i have mixed feelings about pres clinton's message. during his 1st election campaign, he promised to do "something" about the situation in bosnia. it was already quite obvious for those who had their eyes and ears open. when he tried to intervene, he was opposed, esp. by the british and french, which is unforgivable. thatcher, who knew milosevic for exactly what he was was out of power by then, sad to say. mitterand's role was pathetic; but then later it turned out he had been a collaborator in "the day." what a surprise.

but it was my feeling that clinton gave in way too easily, knowing that the bosnians (mainly bosniaks) would be mass murdered. he could have pushed much harder, WE could have pushed much harder, instead of just all of the chitty chat. by the time of the real intervention, 100,000 people were dead -- 10,000 alone in sarajevo, 1000 children. 8,000 in srebrenica. a lot of blood, not just on the hands of the executioners, but of ours as well.

i don't believe it was just about "The Muslims", the so called menace, the triangle??? i haven't even heard such language in years, haven't wanted to. other places, incl and esp rawanda, we sat and watched, even after all the warnings. tisk tusk, as long as it is happening to the OTHER. in the 40s it was my people (and others) who were the OTHER. so the pattern was already well in place.

a great shame on europa, europa.

as for Bosnia -- most of you have no idea of what you speak. bosnia has always been multi-ethnic, long before such a thing was politically correct. when jews -- my people -- were kicked out and escaping from oh-so-civilized christian spain in the 15th century and beyond, many of them ended up in bosnia, which accepted them, gave them safety and solace. what a difference from so many other supposedly civilized nations of europe.

if europe is so short-sighted as to separate and marginalize the bosniak people, they will see it backfire on them 100 times. there are already some such possible indications. a result of 4 years of hell, and the utter and widespread feeling that they had and have been abandoned by the world.

that is why, time after time, when i have met and spoken with these people of bosnia, they say: we are glad that you, as a jew, have come to our country -- that you, as a jew can understand us, in a very basic way. that you, as son of a holocaust refugee, can have some sense of an Omarska, a Srebrenica... that is not a bunch of muslim fanatics, believe me.

so yes, there is islamophobia throughout europe, and in the US, and in these pages. but we need to work on our prejudices, not just accept them.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

Europe is generally racist towards Muslims and that is the reason countries like Turkey, Albania and entities like the Muslim-Croat federation and ethnic-Albanian "Kosova" will be excluded from the EU for a very long time if not forever.
(Zoran, 9 November 2009 12:03) you must be on tablets. let me remind you that europe bombed serbia and not albania and turkey.europe problem is that every country in balkan has the 19century mentality and thats their problem with balkans state.never mind the corruption and crime.clinton is right.european dint care about any country in balkan and that why the left the criminels to kill and steal.

The goal all along was to create this Muslim Trojan horse state not only to destroy Yugoslavia but to weaken and divide Europe while attempting to win favour with the global Islamic community. The whole world knows that his precious Bosnia (and Kosovo) experiment has failed miserably and yet he continues to parrot the same old line.

Lets see how willing Bill Clinton would be "to help" building a muslim state in the middle of the United states of America!

Well only what I can add on this pathetic Clinton's "intimate history" (looks like to me rather like Holbrooke's fabricated post-crime denials) is that François Mitterrand was very much right: Bosnia as it is know, before being divided into two, Republika Srpska and whatever it will be the second part, surely does not belong to Europe, as it present constant treat for European peace due to the growing radical Muslim fundamentalism.

That's why Bosnia is not being split. As for Kosova and Albanians: no radicalization or you will see the 95% of Albanians dealing with the few Jihadists on their own. You see 10 times more covered people in Europe than Albania or Kosova. They are 100's of churches in Albania and a Mother Teresa Cathedral is being built in the middle of Prishtina. http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/7452/katedraljashqiptare1rs0.jpg

Turkey is different, it has 80 million people, Bosnia etc are already in Europe and with a few million people, if left outside EU radicalization would be much more intensive.

It sucks for Serbia because you will have to wait to get in with the rest, i.e. Bosnia and Albania...

Serbs could join Serbia proper and Croats could also do the same.Insisting on artificial Frankenstein such as Bosnia will only destabilize the region. Serbs have the right to secede.
(Leonidas, 9 November 2009 11:42)
--
The problem being - what happens to the Muslims in Bosnia? They can't survive in BiH now let alone within a micro state once Serbians and Croatians leave.

The crisis in BiH is not really a problem for the Serbians. 200,000 Croatians have left BiH and they continue to leave en mass. The West's creation (Germany and Vatican included) is having the opposite effect as Catholic Croatians abandon their land. That's why Mesic is getting involved and it's the Serbians that hold the key. How many Croatians do you think will remain in the Muslim Croatian federation once Croatia joins the EU?

BiH can only survive if it forms a union with Serbia. Of course the Croatians still won't be happy but they can always exchange Krajina if they want to separate.

The Croatians can keep Krajina but lose Herceg-Bosna or they can exchange Herceg-Bosna for Krajina. We Serbians just need to play our cards right and I think we will. After all, we are the most tolerant people in the former Yugoslavia.

Politicians like Bill Clinton
never learn from their mistakes and never accept responsibilities for their actions.

Back in the 1990s the Western
policy which led to disastrous break-up of Yugoslavia was the constitutent parts that made up the country were incompatible with one another.Now Clinton is telling us that it is compatible for the ethnic groups that make up Bosnia to
live in unhappy marriage and complains about Europe's attitude towards the Bosniaks.

The problem with Bosnia that Clinton cannot admit is that it simply cannot exist as a state if it is dominated by one of its groups - it will fall apart. Remember in the 1990's there was an attempt by Moslems and Izetbegovic to create a centralized, Moslem-dominated state. It failed because Serbs, and also Croats most of the time, refused to submit. Dayton preserved Bosnia as a state by allowing its three main ethnic groups a huge degree of autonomy.

However,this arrangement is no workable for neither group concerned.It is time to take some bold decisions and let each of the ethnic groups to find their own way.

If the EU wants the Bosnian muslims to join so be it.
A bit more of their fellas strolling European streets and sleeping on metro air-gratings will not seriously change the demographic situation in the Union.
Serbs could join Serbia proper and Croats could also do the same.Insisting on artificial Frankenstein such as Bosnia will only destabilize the region. Serbs have the right to secede.

Europe is generally racist towards Muslims and that is the reason countries like Turkey, Albania and entities like the Muslim-Croat federation and ethnic-Albanian "Kosova" will be excluded from the EU for a very long time if not forever.

But Bosnia is not a muslim state, because if you put the Croat and Serb populations together, you have more than the Bosniaks.

Still, the arrangement with the White Schengen is a good thing, Europe is being flooded with vast amounts of muslim immigrants as it is, to open up to more would only mean the Europe's end in 20 or so years. This sort of thing is fine in America, a land based on immigration, but ethnic states in Europe should be much stricter with immigration from Africa and Asia, they are only doing themselves harm.

"if you put the Croat and Serb populations together, you have more than the Bosniaks."

Keep telling yourself that. Hehe, funny.

Current demographics are: 56% Bosniak (with a rapid sustained growth), 11% Croat (on a decline) and all others (on a decline). By the way, don't forget the 700,000 strong Bosniak diaspora whose children will come back and that number will then triple, whereas Serbs will keep clinging to it's "mother"-Serbia and Croats will do the same with Croatia, all while at the same time Serbia and Croata doesn't want them, hehe, too funny.

The so called arms embargo was only pretend. In effect it applied to the Serbs, while the other republics got as many arms that they wanted.

Zoran does not make sense at all. He just gaved up Krajina (Sure he is not from there), Created a new union of states (if Serbia and Montenegro couldn't stay together what are the chances of Bosnia and Serbia Union to stand as one). Croatia gave up on Hercegovina (they fought a war to claim it).

He says: "Muslims in Bosnia? They can't survive in BiH now let alone within a micro state once Serbians and Croatians leave".
Does he know something about some sort of mass exodus of Serbs and Croats from Bosnia in the near future?

It is all in your head. Leave them alone. They are a new country. There are more than a century old states around Bosnia and they don't seem to do any better either.
I'm sure you wish you could turn back the history clock to early 1990's. To really cleans Bosnia.

Clinton admitted to Branch that allies in Europe blocked the U.S. proposals for ending the arms embargo for Bosnia, “because more weapons would mean more bloodshed,” but Clinton said that it had more to do with Europe’s stance that a Muslim state within the continent would be “unnatural.”

It had more to do with the feeling that he is a warmonger. I only wish they had continued with that stance and told he where to go.

For one thing, these "Muslims" in Bosnia are fellow Slavs that converted due to a prolonged occupation. Nothing new there. It's happened everywhere else in the world.

Second, it sounds like you're completely blind to the difference between European Muslims and the lot from Pakistan, Middle East and North Africa.
One group is born and bred in Europe, been exposed to Western concepts and lifestyles from birth...the other comes from largely uneducated, extreme conservative cultural backgrounds, who thanks to its own ignorance and the "helpful" attitudes of enlightened "Europeans" like Miterrand and the lot here, remain marginalized.

Third...stop blaming Clinton because the Balkans in general and Yugoslavia in particular is filled with bigoted, nationalistic idiots. Did the U.S. elect Tudjman? No...Croats did. Did the West elect Izetbegovic? No...Bosniaks did. Did Clinton elect Milosevic, Karadzic and the rest of the low life scum passing for politicians? No...the Serbs did.

Shame, shame, shame to all commentators. Not even one to feel any remorse for the dead Bosnians (Serbs, Muslims, Croats and other). If, only if Europe had done more to prevent bloodshed on their doorstep there would be no devided Bosnia, be that "Muslim" Bosnia, "Serb" Bosnia or other. They left no choice for Bosnians but rely on their Muslim brethren. The other choice was for USA to take things on their hands and one more time save Europe from stupid wars.
Anyway, Is it not enough what is done to the Muslims in Bosnia -their territory is brought down to the minimum, half a million dead and uprooted, destroyed infrastructure, no decision-making power?
You can not ignore the Muslims in Europe Just as you can't ignore Jews in Middle East. They are there, they belong there so learn to deal with it. Anything other than that is racist, murderous, inhumane.
As far as Turkey, Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia in EU history taught us in Europe never say never.
Don't forget there are more Muslims in France that in Bosnia.

What does Bill consider to be "help"? And by the way, who started the war in the first place? A lot of folks who visit B92 will probably say the West started it, but come on. Yugoslavia was a mess after WWII and the place was destined to blow once Tito had departed and the constituent republics were left to squabble over a land that wasn't exactly prosperous. Tell me, why was it was so important to the West to see Yugoslavia crumble? The Berlin Wall had already done that and the Soviets were on their knees. If anything, the disintegration of Yugoslavia would mean a headache no in the West would need: millions of refugees, the pressure to put Western troops (among others) in harm's way in the form of UN peacekeepers, billions of dollars of delinquent debt from the Tito era that would remain that way, and on and on and on.

Which brings us to an example of how Europe actually did make an effort to help: most of UNPROFOR was made up of soldiers from UK, France, Spain and Holland.

And let's not forget the countless efforts to negotiate a peaceful settlement led by European diplomats -- efforts that proposed plans closely resembling Dayton that Bosnian politicians repeatedly rejected from 1992 - 1994. Heck, some of these guys from BiH were barely able to show up for the negotiations. UNPROFOR General Rose had to pound on Karadzic's hotel room door -- in the middle of the day -- in Geneva in 1994 to get the severely hungover Bosnian Serb president out of bed for peace talks. Four years later, the Serbian delegation at Rambouillet was accused of the same drunken, disorderly conduct.

The truth is, the Europeans tried. Maybe imperfectly, but they tried. And, in Clinton's defense, so did the Americans. People from ex-Yu can complain all they like about the results of these efforts, but the 1990s wars were disasters that they themselves created.

(Denis, 9 November 2009 16:58)

Albania, whether you like it or not, is majority muslim. Just like Serbia is Orthodox and Italy is Catholic. That being said, it doesn't mean that there are no Catholic or Orthodox Churches in Albania. Of course there are, some existed even before the Shqipërs migrated to the Balkan penninsula around the 14th century. The Sicilians who brought them over, converted them to Catholicism so that they could help 'fight the Turks'. This all soon changed when more and more Turks started arriving and it made sense for the Shqipërs to convert back to their 'original' religion.

Europe is generally racist towards Muslims and that is the reason countries like Turkey, Albania and entities like the Muslim-Croat federation and ethnic-Albanian "Kosova" will be excluded from the EU for a very long time if not forever.
(Zoran, 9 November 2009 12:03

Under the Lisbon Treaty countries with the largest populations have the majority
of votes within the union.You
didn't expect the Germans or the French to allow the Turks
running the EU.Did you?

Thank you so much Roberto. A brilliant lesson for all Europeans. It would be great if you could write a book about Bosnia...Thanks again.

Roberto, the fact that so many denounced your deep-felt emotions could show us that on the Balkans a broad part of its population still is anti-semitic and islamophobic. It is a fact which we also can discover in the rest of Europe or North-America, though Clinton tries to make Europe the only scapegoat.

For sure France played a very strange role in those days. I know that it was disappointing for the Dutch to find out that their UN-soldiers in Srebrenica had asked for support from France, but didn't get it.

More disappointing was the fact that the strong opposition in Serbia against Milosevic crumbled.

C'mon guys, what's wrong with being moslem in Europe. All the great religions are good, what is bad and need to be confronted is fanaticism.

C'mon guys, what's wrong with being moslem in Europe. All the great religions are good, what is bad and need to be confronted is fanaticism.
(G.Z.Basha, 10 November 2009 03:58)

Well actually, all religions are bad ( especially Christianity and Islam) and serve no purpose in life whatsoever. So I find a lot of 'wrongs' with people who believe in all religions, but the problem I have is when people of one stupid believe hate people of another stupid believe thinking their stupid believe is better. Oh the irony!

I wonder what the Serbs and Serbia their "neighbor" were doing in the country of Bosnia i Herzegovina Republic (not really) that it needed help any guess.

To Denis, how is Albania not Muslim?

70% of the population is Muslim. A couple of years ago an Islamit party tried to register and polls reported by RFE/RL indicated they would have at least 15% support.

The constiution didn't allow them to register.

Furthermore. Their have been report of increasing Islamization. Christians are now proably less then 20% of the population.

Kosovo's treatment of non-Albanian minorities, Serbs, Gypsies, Bosniaks and Gorani show this so-called Tolerance.

Furthermore November 17, is an anti-religoius anarchist gorups. And so what if Serbs are associated with massacres, Albanians will be as soon as Kosovo heats up but they are already associated with drug trafficing, Sentax, bombs, terrorism, crime and prostitution.

Denis,

"Albania is not only the most tolerant but also way more secular than Serbia and Greece where the church institutions are even involved in politics and christianity is very important in defining your identity."

Who destroyed all those Serbian churches in Kosovo?

How is Albania a muslim country?
(Denis, 9 November 2009 16:58)
--
The latest study by the Pew Research Centre (released in Oct this year) states that Albania has 80% Muslims.

You can read the report here - Check http://pewforum.org/newassets/images/reports/Muslimpopulation/Muslimpopulation.pdf

In Europe, Russia has the most Muslims, followed by Germany, France, Albania and then the entity of "Kosova", followed by the UK and BiH.

Regardless of whether this is true or not, the perception in Europe is that Albanians are mostly Muslims.

Yaroslav

You ever been to Albania? Why don't you go next summer and find out for yourself?

As far as I know, there are no visas for Serbs during the summer months (and hopefully both countries will get rid of them permanently soon)

Clinton is such a liar. Always has been, always will be.

The US intelligence services spied on UNPROFOR (General Rose), provided intercepts, satellite data, money and weapons to both 'Bosnia' and 'Croatia', the latter along with the Germans, the UK etc. normally via third parties, i.e. Iran who flew 747s full of weapons directly into Zagreb, the HVO getting 20-40% and the remainder going to ArBih.

The CFE (Conventional Forces Europe) treaty and its amendments restrict the numbers, types deployment of
weapons/systems in Europe since the early 1990s, but there was absolutely nothing in it about 'giving away' weapons which is what Germany did with a good part of its ex-GDR stocks which were used to re-arm Tudjmans neo-ustasa state.

What Clinton is complaining about is that Europe did not do as it was told by the US, though US 'help' proved to be disastrous when Zimmerman promised Izetbegovic US support regardless of whether he signed the EU's Cutilhero peace plan. Izetbegovic of course didn't and plunged Bosnia into war, something that Fikret Abdic would never have done.

The US believes in 'simple' solutions whereas the Europeans knew there were no simple solutions to the Balkans. That Europe failed in their last hour was more a sign of European disunity confidence, apart of course for the Germans and the Austrian governments who were
very clear from the beginning what they wanted.

Actually this is one of those rare times when I agree more with the Albanians here.

Europe fearing a "Muslim" state in the Balkans from Bosnia is pure and utter rubbish. Islam did not even form a core part of Bosnian (or "Bosniak") identity until the 1990s. Prior to that, Bosnia has the HIGHEST percentage of people identifying themselves as "Yugoslavs". As for Albanians, I have a lot of problems with their historical memory, but the one thing that is incredibly hard to discount is their relative indifference to relgion. I've never met an Albanian that would turn down a drink, and I've never seen any inter-Albanian dispute over religion. Albanians are for the most part atheist, and within Albania, Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim, and atheist basically co-exist. Furthermore, the very same "European" states that supposedly feared a Muslim state in the Balkans, currently house the largest percentage of north African and Middle Eastern Muslims in their own backyards. A "Muslim" country in Europe? Germany is more likely to be the Muslim threat than Albania or Bosnia. The 9/11 plotters came out of Hamberg. Where are the hotbeds of radical Islamic fundamentalism? The streets of London and Paris, not the streets of Sarajevo or Tirana.

'The strongest opposition of the Islamic influence in the Balkans is coming from the Albanian political and intellectual elite, ...'

This is the impression of Albania Western readers take away from the novels of Kadare, one of the few sources available in English on how Albanians view their history. The English translations vary in quality, but fortunately "The Three-Arched Bridge" was wonderfully done. I don't remember plots well, but the image presented by the narrator, a 15th?-century monk, of the long shadow of the minaret slowing extending across the Albanian landscape was as unforgettable as it was chilling. I wouldn't suggest that jihadists try recruiting in either Albania or Kosovo.

Seem to recall Madelaine Albright running the show!
Where was Clinton than?

were kicked out and escaping from oh-so-civilized christian spain in the 15th century and beyond, many of them ended up in bosnia, which accepted them, gave them safety and solace. what a difference from so many other supposedly civilized nations of europe.

thank you.

roberto
frisco
(roberto, 9 November 2009 21:54)
--
Does your history skip WWII Bosnia? Prior to WWII there were 14,000 Jews in BiH with 10,000 in your beloved Sarajevo - Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina . During WWII the Croatians along with your friends the Bosnian Muslims murdered 10,000 Jews along with hundreds of thousands of Serbians - Check http://tinyurl.com/yhe5c9q . The 4000 Jews that survived did so by fighting with mainly Serbians or Russians.

Have you ever asked for an apology from them or have they ever apologised? Nope! Didn't think so. It's no wonder Israel is on Serbia's side.

After all, we are the most tolerant people in the former Yugoslavia.
(Zoran, 9 November 2009 16:05)

Please tell this to the Hungarians of Vojvodina.

Bravo! NZ recognizing Kosovo and breaking international rights just a few weeks before the trial at ICJ.

Lies and deception. This is what to expect from the likes of Holbrooke and Clinton. But their politics actually has an even more sinister side effect. It has flooded Europe with muslims. Sweden, Holland, Switzerland and many more countries have gigantic problems with muslims in general, especially with criminal albanians and arab jihadists. All this can be blamed on Bill Clinton, Tony Blair and the Bush administration that started the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which are now flooding Europe with even more muslims. They have planted the seeds of destruction and it was done on purpose. This has been a coherent politics from their side for the last 20 years. Flood Europe with muslims. Very sinister and very destructive.

Mr. Clinton shouldn't speak about his past wrongs e.g. Bosnia, unless he is willing to atone for his crimes against humanity and begin to make amends for all his intenational atrocities. I don't know how he can make such amends though, as they are too numerous and evil to even contemplate.

MB,Ireland

After all, we are the most tolerant people in the former Yugoslavia.
(Zoran, 9 November 2009 16:05)

Please tell this to the Hungarians of Vojvodina.
(Joe, 10 November 2009 22:12)

Well most of them will agree with Zoran's statement.One thing is the reality on the ground and another what "hungarian" media creates to detract attention from very grave local problems in hungary .

Zoran, when you say that "Europe is generally racist towards Muslims" don't rush. You have to put the facts into balance. Check out the number of Christians and churches in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, also what goes on with Christian communities in Syria, Egypt, Algeria and Turkey. By comparison, check out the situation of Muslims in Europe: Germany, France, UK, Spain and yes, many "Balkans" states.

A few days ago I was reading about one of these Muslim clerics in the UK who was openly urging the Queen to convert to Islam (?!). Let it be Freedom of Speech. Now, what would you think would happen to some poor fellow suggesting king Fahd converts to Christianity? Compare the concepts, compare the level of tolerance, of freedom of speech and generally the attitudes and values. Where would you rather live?

Of course, it seems that particular fellow has now forgotten the time when he was impatiently waiting his turn to get his visa application processed for the UK. When he was later queuing up, full of hope, for many hours to the Home Office to get his residence application result. Why do you think he left his perfect life in his perfect Muslim country to move to the UK? And yet, now he wants to change that very UK into the other type of society that he, himself has once left behind without looking back (at that time). He has now become a preacher, you see?

So much about "racism".

Does he know something about some sort of mass exodus of Serbs and Croats from Bosnia in the near future?
(Mirub Jager, 9 November 2009 18:12)
--
No, not a mass exodus but there are calls for the Serbian and Croatian parts of BiH to join their respective states thus leaving an unsustainable Micro BiH containing mostly Muslims. My point is that only Serbia is tolerant enough to have them included in a Union with us. We already have 200,000 Bosnian Muslims in the Serbian Sandžak region.

Mike, whether Bosnian Muslims or Albanians are strong followers of the Muslim Faith is not so important here. It's the perception that matters and most of Europe considers them Muslims. However, we all know Albanians will play whichever card suits them best - whether it's Muslim, Christian or Athiest but at the end of the day it's just the same old Nationalistic card.

The Bosnian government wanted a fairy-tale.

This is all a nonsense. Yugoslavia did not have to break up at all, but once the rot started (I suspect a glee from the west in general at seeing communist systems fail miserably and a joy from certain Germans who wanted to see an independent Croatia) there was no stopping the local prejudices taking hold.

Who can blame a Bosnian of the Christian tradition vehemently reacting against a Muslim take over? After the Ottoman impositions that is scarcely surprising. Unfortunately however, the west did not stamp on the motivations of Yugoslav politicians who wanted to encourage the break up because of their own parochial ambitions. Mistake.

Time to rattle a few more cages. Why not bring back a unified Yugoslavia and attack the bitter nationalism that caused the current load of rubbish!

The irony is that the EU ambition for an equitable multi-ethic Europe is not so different from the brotherhood an unity that was a main-stay of communist Titoism!

Whether you're in the former Yugoslavia or elsewhere in the world,do what I do, have preferences for Muslims & non-Muslims who are both decent and easy to relate to instead of Muslims & non-Muslims who are opposite in one or both ways.Besides no one should accuse me of being religiously biased nor being a religious favourtist.

serbs are well known for the massacres of thousands of people, are accused for genocide, and a slaughtory not seen in decades.
(Denis, 9 November 2009 16:58)

but that's part of the same problem. perceptions many westerners have about certain groups are not always justified. both serbs and albanians have image problems. serbs because of the wars in the 90's and albanians because they are indeed perceived as muslims with everything you get with that prejudice. it is incredibly stupid to see serbs trying to appeal to anti-muslim prejudice and albanians trying to appeal to anti-serbian prejudice on this site, yet that's happening constantly. standing united against anti-balkanese prejudice would be too much to ask from you guys, it seems. your comment was actually quite good until you started serb-bashing.

and i don't think clinton is being honest. the eventual settlement of the conflict in bosnia was very similar to what europeans had proposed, but bosniaks rejected (probably with the us support). a lot of bloodshed would have been avoided in that way. i do not think americans had the well-being of bosnians in their mind when conducting their policies, but that would be a too long story. i also don't get the logic of those who say that americans or europeans are guilty for the bloodshed. sorry, but those who did the killing are guilty. europeans and americans may have been acting politically irresponsible, but ultimately it was the local people who were killing each other.

Branch and Clinton good friends sharing the loyalties to single minded views on the book aimed at American market. It's all to do with being in the right place at the right time and you scratch my back I'll sractch yours.

So easy to say anything after the event. Suppose book number 2 is on the way on "How we saved democracy and Kosovo" - Sure Europe has lots to say.

"Clinton said that it had more to do with Europe’s stance that a Muslim state within the continent would be “unnatural.”

He also revealed that former French president François Mitterrand openly said that Bosnia is not a part of Eu"

What this says to some is that Europe wanted Kosovo independent, not because of the oppression but because they if Kosovo was seperate, they could keep a Muslim state out of Europe and let Serbia in.
Very sad reasoning and extremely racist of Mitterand. No wonder Bosnia and the area of Kosovo aren't seeing progress.