Bosnia's grand mufti to visit Kosovo

This man is just gonna stir the pot with his fiery speeches disguised under the umbrella of a so-called peaceful and tolerant religion.

I read some article where this man of peace said that by Serbia joining the EU VISA regime, that the EU was "rewarding our killers", as if to say that he thinks all Serbs are killers.

That already made him look bad in my eyes.

@aRTA - who you kidding??

The Albanian jihadists in the KLA and Kosovo generally are Islamists pure and simple and part of the global jihad.

That is why they got help from Osama Bin Laden and sent men to Afghanistan to fight Americans etc.

And the Albanians have been happily receiving funds and new mosques from Saudi Wahhabis.

Interestingly, a Kosovo Albanian and Bosnian Muslim were just caught plotting jihad in the US.....

Come on George, the stereotypes like Albanians as Muslim terrorists, jihad and so on have vanished long time ago, to be more precise; with Milosevic and his disastrous adventure. So you are just wasting your breath in vain, with false hopes that don’t yield any outcome in accordance with your expectations. However I would like once more to remind you about the Albanians religious adherence; proportionally Albanians maintain three main religions almost equal: 60 % Muslims, 25 % orthodox and 15 % Catholics. Therefore, nearly 50% of Albanians are not in any case Muslims. This fact is more than enough to turn your pretentions down.
As far as the funds dedicated to Kosovo by Saudi Arabia are concerned; I would say, nothing wrong is going on about that. Saudi Arabia is a superpower in the Arabian world, and it has recognized Kosovo as an independent state recently. Why we should refuse anything in that respect? They are also the main US ally in the region.
To Peter Suduka: have you ever looked him with the sympathy? By the way, I agree with his statement regarding the EU VISA demagogy, even I had never heard him saying so.
To Dragan: Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion, and I suggest you and every one else to get some knowledge on a subject, before launching allegations as you did in here.

This is the same Mustafa Cerić that is on the US State Department's blacklist of people with links to terrorism (Saudi funding of wahabis in bosnia etc.). He's had his accounts frozen etc...

Still, the KLA was also 'officially' a terrorist organization but it looks like the calculation is that as long as such groups don't kill americans, it is ok.

Kovoso-USA wrote: "Never an Albanian went to Afganistan to fight against Americans."

No? Here's one that you missed (from an article written by USAToday's Jack Kelley on 11/26/2001 detailing Bin Laden's camps in Afghanistan):

Perhaps most telling about the minds of those who trained here is a document found at the camp. "I am interested in suicide operations," wrote Damir Bajrami, a 24-year-old ethnic Albanian from Kosovo, on his entry application in April 2001. "I have Kosovo Liberation Army combat experience against Serb and American forces. I need no further training. I recommend (suicide) operations against (amusement) parks like Disney."

Alban,

Please explain why then have so many Wahhabi-sponsored mosques been recently built in the Albanian parts of Kosovo?

Laki Bani,

How peaceful is it? Look at the news: Nigeria, Saudia Arabia, Algeria, Bosnia, Chechnya etc...
Did that peaceful religion come to the Balkans when your many times great grandfather waited for them in open arms, or did he along with millions become vassals, slaves, forcibly converted.

Kosovo-USA,

I referenced the source.

Whether or not you choose to believe it, is inconsequential.

But here's the link anyway:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/11/26/cover.htm

Ilir,

Notice that its written by one of your beloved Americans in perhaps one of the most eager endorsers of US foreign policy, USAToday. So what reason would they have to print a story detailing terrorist participators if it wasn't true?

So everything that the US media printed - the faked deaths at Racak, the ridiculous claim of 10,000 Albanian casualties. . .etc - are true. . .except this one case of an apparent Albanian fundamentalist that wanted to kill some Americans?

How about the Fort Dix plot? Is that not true? Or this most recent terror conspiracy in North Carolina where yet another Albanian from Kosovo is involved? Let me guess? Also a lie, right?

What a way to repay the Americans for helping you steal Serbian land.

So who needs to educate themselves?

How does a Bosniak become a patriot? By becoming more islamic. So keep your Bosnjaci "patriotism" away from us, or else...

@aRTA - who you kidding??

The Albanian jihadists in the KLA and Kosovo generally are Islamists pure and simple and part of the global jihad.

That is why they got help from Osama Bin Laden and sent men to Afghanistan to fight Americans etc.

And the Albanians have been happily receiving funds and new mosques from Saudi Wahhabis.

Interestingly, a Kosovo Albanian and Bosnian Muslim were just caught plotting jihad in the US.....
(George, 31 July 2009 14:50)

I feel sorry for you George, becasue you badly been misinformed. Why don't you check Serbia's relation with rouge states that feed on islamic extremisem. Never an Albanian went to Afganistan to fight against Americans.
Please, if you have any concrete information about that, why don't you sare it with all the readers of b92 +contact US govermant about it. If I had that information I will be seatting with NSA,CIA,FBI Agents and passing on this valuble information. I love Kosova and USA, and i hate any religious extremisem.

I am an Albanian and i say keep away from Kosova and Albania you Bosnians and extreme Muslims... We are not interested in you.

'Still, the KLA was also 'officially' a terrorist organization but it looks like the calculation is that as long as such groups don't kill americans, it is ok.'

No, the KLA was never "officially" classified as a terrorist organization. That would have meant listing it in the "Foreign Terrorist Organizations" report issued in either 1997 or 1999 (it's only issued every other year). http://www.state.gov/www/global/terrorism/terrorist_orgs_list.html. Doing this would have meant that it would have been illegal for Americans to send money to support it or to fight with it, and neither was ever outlawed.

The source of the confusion was President Clinton's special envoy to the Balkans, Robert Gelbard, describing the KLA as, "a terrorist group," but this was the opinion of a single individual, who was not at the time familiar with all the circumstances.

coment #10

First of all there is no such an Albanian name as "DAMIR".

Second, can you show me a link cause I don't buy your story at all. I could write similar things about Serbia just to cook up a story, but it doeas not hold any water.

"I am interested in suicide operations," wrote Damir Bajrami, a 24-year-old ethnic Albanian from Kosovo, on his entry application in April 2001. "I have Kosovo Liberation Army combat experience against Serb and American forces. I need no further training. I recommend (suicide) operations against (amusement) parks like Disney."

(Nemanja, Connecticut, 31 July 2009 17:44)

KLA against Serb and American forces. How that can be?!!!!
Please Nemania, educate yourself.
KLA against American forces.. OMG what speculation! He is either brain-washed boy or media have speculated with his words. Neither way that doesn’t prospect Albanian-American relation nor it is a credible source for anti-Albanian propaganda. Actually it will have opposite effect.

K-albanians regard themselves as pretty secular & are happy to accept saudi dollars which is fair enough.

But brings up the question as to what will happen (is happening?) given the large numbers of unemployed & disenfranchised youth in conjunction with all these new mosques & the wahhabi brand of islam that is being practiced in them.

Any equivalents of 'madrassas' in Kosovo?


Amer:
> No, the KLA was never "officially" classified as a terrorist organization.

Well actually it was:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070402053051/http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=3517

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#cite_note-mipt-27

> Doing this would have meant that it would have been illegal for Americans to send money to support it or to fight with it, and neither was ever outlawed.

Since when has 'legality' ever stopped the yanks? And when has it ever stopped them arming & financing insurgent groups that further some sort of US aim?

> The source of the confusion was President Clinton's special envoy to the Balkans, Robert Gelbard, describing the KLA as, "a terrorist group," but this was the opinion of a single individual, who was not at the time familiar with all the circumstances.

Was stated by the 'US special envoy to the balkans' on a terrorist group operating in the balkans during the time of his mission there. And would be well aware of the terrorist activities of the KLA at that time.

Envoys do not give 'opinions' in this context 'Amer'. They are briefed by their staff & their statements reflect their countries official positions at the time.

You are having a bad day aren't you.

Actually Islamist fundamentalism is on the rise in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
http://www.islamdaily.net/EN/Contents.aspx?AID=5609

Spiegel wrote several months ago: 'Radical Muslim imams and nationalist politicians are threatening Sarajevo's multicultural legacy. With the help of Arab benefactors, the deeply devout are acquiring new recruits. In the "Jerusalem of the Balkans," Islamists are on the rise."

It's a fact that Islamism is gaining grounds in BiH, strange that someone questions that...

"As far as the funds dedicated to Kosovo by Saudi Arabia are concerned; I would say, nothing wrong is going on about that."

Of course accepting money to build massive, ugly mosques that have saudi approved muftis who preach wahabism is of course ok. No problems there then.

As for Ceric, he is not stupid enough to say that he is a wahabbist, but he does nothing to spread its influence, i.e. allows it to spread passively.

From the empire approved propaganda source (BIRN):

http://www.birn.eu.com/en/75/10/2490/

INVESTIGATION: Emissaries of Militant Islam Make Headway in Bosnia

21 03 2007 Saudi-based Wahhabi fundamentalists infiltrate complacent religious structures.
***

Apart from the 'authorities' are not complacent. The dream of Alija Izetbegovic's Islamic Declaration lives on through Ceric..

'> No, the KLA was never "officially" classified as a terrorist organization.

Well actually it was:

[link]://[link]

[link]#cite_note-mipt-27 '

The first link returns "Not in archive," the second "The account you were looking for doesn't exist." The third links to the "MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base, which lists (in a sidebar) the KLA as "US Terrorist Exclusion List: No" The link (in the same sidebar) to the State Department's Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs) list leads to a list not including the KLA.

So you're left with the comment of one government official, which is not the same as the "official" position of a country. As Karadzic has learned, to his sorrow, you really have to get things in writing, and signed by people with the authority to do so.

I am surprised by the lies and "marketing" of our Albanian Muslim readers. Some of the international press might believe this fluff but don't expect well-informed readers to. Evidence you say??

1. David Hicks - an Australian convert to Muslim learnt jihad with the KLA and then went to help Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.
2. The KLA and its backers have engaged in of the most serious human rights violations in the last 100 years. Thousands of Serbs, (moderate) Albanian muslims, Roma, Jews, Egyptians etc murdered. Over 250,000 ethnically cleansed.
3. So-called Christian Albanians have largely supported the jihadists in Kosovo. Even the Vatican representative has supported the Islamist secessionists.
4. Lots of evidence on the strategic role and contribution of Kosovo to the global jihad. Try www.jihadwatch.org and search for "Kosovo" as a start.

So you see, you can't fool everyone...

Amer:
You said:
> The third links to the "MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base, which lists (in a sidebar) the KLA as "US Terrorist Exclusion List: No" The link (in the same sidebar) to the State Department's Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs) list leads to a list not including the KLA.

'MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base' article on the KLA was actually the webpage that '[link]://[link]' was supposed to link to. And you're correct when you say that the KLA is not 'currently' listed as a terrorist group by the US state dept.

But that's about all you're right about.


You initially said:
> No, the KLA was never "officially" classified as a terrorist organization.

The MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base lists terrorist organisations - both past & present. And the KLA was officially classified as a terrorist group by MIPT, which I might add, is funded by your dept. of 'homeland' security. That is why the KLA has it's very own webpage there.

On that webpage that you've referred to, you'll also find multiple links to MIPT classified 'terrorist incidents' in which the KLA is described as a 'terrorist organisation'.

The 'third link' that links to this MIPT webpage is actually a wikipedia article on the KLA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army

That article says that the U.S. State Department listed the KLA as a terrorist organization until 1998. That France delisted it later that same year. That the KLA is in the MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base list of terrorist groups (see above), that it is listed as an inactive terrorist organization by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism from Homeland Security, & is listed as a terrorist group by your own Council of Foreign Relations.


You said:
> So you're left with the comment of one government official, which is not the same as the "official" position of a country.

Wrong again - make that a real bad day...

Gelbard wasn't just some nameless government official, he was Clinton's special envoy to the balkans - & was so when he said the following:

"We condemn very strongly terrorist actions in Kosovo. The UCK is, without any question, a terrorist group"

Not 'I', but 'We'.

Repeating:
Envoys do not give personal 'opinions' during their 'stint of duty', especially when that 'opinion' references material in the 'sphere of that duty'.

He was saying what he was told to say.


Regarding the links, sometimes when pasting these things the editor that B92 uses breaks up the 'addresses' (when it runs into a character like '+', ',' embedded 'http' links etc)

For instance, the address I gave above..

:http://web.archive.org/web/20070402053051/http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=3517

.. can be reached by doing the following:

1: 'left-click' on the 1st link,
2: in the new window/tab - delete the last 4 characters in the address bar,
3: go back to this comment & 'right-click' on the 2nd link,
4: on the menu displayed - 'left-click' on 'Properties',
5: copy the address shown in the 'pop-up',
5: paste it at the end of the address bar of the new window/tab &
6: hit 'enter/return'.

And this is in fact the "MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base" article to which you referred to above.

Hope your day improves ;)

There's nothing wrong with him visiting Kosovo as long as there isn't any hate spech type propaganda damaging the interethnic relations.
We have seen enough of it and had it enough,EXTREMIST believers of whatever religion they belong got nothing to do with ordinary believers,therefore labeling the islam for idividual EXTREMIST actions it's not right,if so we would say the same thing for catholics,cristians,orthodoks and so on,there isn't any difference betwen European crusades in midle east and Serbian campaings in Bosnia and Kosova in the name of religion with the jihadist of the islam faith,some see it different and nobody can change their minds but it is not.
We have to see our actions in the same angle we see others,of course I'm not talking just for same bad apples that may come up time to time that have nothing to do with ordinary people in both sides.

Live in peace and love one another despite of their beliefs,none of the religion that we Europeans believe today were born in here,therefore nobody is more European than another.

Peace

Flamur,

Oh man. . .did you shoot yourself in the foot with this post?!

Your links clearly indicate that he fabricated at least 8 major stories from "Cuba, Israel and Serbia."

Doesn't say anything about Afghanistan.

Do you not believe that there's terrorists in Afghanistan, Flamur? Your American friends might not appreciate that.

If anything, Jack Kelley should retract all the garbage that he published while writing about Kosovo.

Let's begin:

* One of Kelley's most famous stories, and in fact the one that fatefully aroused a colleague's suspicion, was a July 14 1999 revelation in which he claimed to have seen a notebook in which the Yugoslav army ordered the ethnic cleansing of an Albanian village in Kosovo. This was supposed to be "smoking gun" stuff against Milosevic, and ran on the paper's front page. Ironically, while this story was all a product of his imagination.

* Or how about this little gem:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/kosovo/koso1055.htm

As it turns out, Flamur. . .completely made up. . .just like most of the silly stories coming out Kosovo in 1999 (Racak, 100,000 dead in stadium. . .etc)

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

'What a way to repay the Americans for helping you steal Serbian land. '

Nothing any of the guys you mention did was as bad as that American who recruited Muslims to commit terror (if he did - not much info has come out yet about what they actually did). No one judges a nation by the actions of a few individuals. As for "Damir," it could just be a case of inflating his resume, so to speak, claiming to have fought the Americans.

'The 'third link' that links to this MIPT webpage is actually a wikipedia article on the KLA: [link] '

Yes, I found the wiki page, but as with so many of these Kosovo/Serbia-related articles, it's listed as disputed.

You can find links justifying almost anything you want - I identified the official U.S. government sites responsible for identifying terrorist organizations and am content to leave it at that. What others called the KLA was up to them.

And thanks, my day is going just fine - after the rain yesterday, the weather is glorious.

(George)the reason why the then US president Bill Clinton promised to send Serbia back to the STONE AGE unless it stopped its policy against Albanians surely was not becouse of (Albanian jihadists) The visit from his highness the Myfti is welcome. Albanians like what he is and what he stands for, unless someone is a confused Albanian or unjustly ashamed of his/her religion.Islam was not spread by the sord otherwise there wan't be any Christian Albanians today nor any very religious Serbs for that matter.

Amer:
Wasn't actually going to say anything else on this subject apart possibly from a comment on the weather;) but have to see somebody about a monkey...

Wiki page is listed as being in dispute certainly but the argument is about whether or not KLA was officially classified as a 'terrorist organisation'.

And the references I made have sources whose validity is not in dispute (as wiki's policy on 'sources' is pretty rigorous as is evident from their 'discussions' section - which I personally find more interesting than the articles themselves).

Some more 'detail' for you:

"In 1998, the U.S. State Department listed the KLA as a terrorist organization, indicating that it was financing its operations with money from the international heroin trade and loans from Islamic countries and individuals, among them allegedly Usama bin Laden." http://judiciary.house.gov/Legacy/muts1213.htm

This is a list of 'terrorist groups' including guess who: http://www.cfr.org/publication/10159/

Sourced from the 'MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base' & essentially the same: http://www.start.umd.edu/start/data/tops/terrorist_organization_profile.asp?id=3517

"As late as 1997, the KLA had been recognized by the U.S. as a terrorist organisation supported in part by heroin trafficking.SCOTT, Peter Dale (2003): Drugs, Oil and War. Rowman & Littlefield."

And "Nevertheless, by February 1998 the KLA was removed from the United States State Department's terrorism list "Al Qaeda's Balkan Links", The Wall Street Journal Europe, 1 November 2001." http://en.allexperts.com/e/k/ko/kosovo_liberation_army.htm

"The americans removed the KLA from its list of terrorist organizations in 1998.." http://books.google.com/books?id=OjvdsfiWwJcC&pg=PA68&vq=kla+terrorist&dq=terrorism+knowledge+database+kla#v=onepage&q=kla%20terrorist&f=false

Is patently obvious that the KLA was a terrorist organisation. And was listed for a short while by your state department. Just never made it into the FTO reports which as you've pointed out, only come out every 2nd year.

Here's another little ditty from 'Janes' that's relevant: "The KLA does not appear on the official US State Department list of foreign terrorist organisations, and threat of its inclusion on the list is currently the only US sway over radical Albanians. After two explosions on Macedonian territory at the turn of the year, for which the KLA claimed responsibility, a clear warning was issued by Robert Gelbard, the top US envoy for former Yugoslavia."

This bit came out after the state dept took the KLA of it's list of 'terrorist organisations' in Feb 98 as is obvious by the reference to Gelbards comments (which we were discussing earlier).

Seems that the only reason the KLA didn't make that FTO list was because they 'played ball' with the US.

Might also add that this confirms that Gelbards comments were anything but a 'personal opinion' as you stated earlier.

> You can find links justifying almost anything you want..

Isn't hard to do when it's the truth.

> ..I identified the official U.S. government sites responsible for identifying terrorist organizations and am content to leave it at that.

All you 'identified' was the fact that the state department didn't have the KLA listed as a 'terrorist organisation' at two specific points in time - during 97 & 99 when the FTO reports were issued.

And I suspect that is why you are willing to 'leave it at that'.

And as for the weather, here in Sydney has been almost perfect for winter for the past 2 weeks - clear blue skies, no smog & mostly a pleasant 19 degrees celsius during the day - 66 fahrenheit for you american 'imperialists' ;)


Orgin Grinder:
> Your intention appears to try to confuse and intimidate those that disagree with you on even the most minute matter by referencing imaginary links.

Actually my 'intention' is & has always been to combat the disinformation, distortions & outright lies being published here, which is why most of my comments have been in the nature of 'rebuttals'.

However if you find logical debate 'confusing & intimidating', then I would suggest that you are on the wrong forum.

Imaginary links?

Actually went into a fair amount of detail about this in my previous comment (#24) on this thread - which you've referenced in your comment. Assume you've read it.. was the last part.

Can only assume then that you were 'confused' & didn't understand the 'step-by-step' instructions.

So here's an alternate route to get to that pesky link.. might add that this was probably the way that 'Amer' accessed that same link.

1: click on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army,
2: go to the bottom of the page, & find the 'References' section,
3: find reference #28, & click on the link 'MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base'.

Let me know if you find that 'imaginary'.

"I read some article where this man of peace said that by Serbia joining the EU VISA regime, that the EU was "rewarding our killers", as if to say that he thinks all Serbs are killers. "

Someone should ask this myfti on whose side his country is standing by not recognizing Kosovo. No wonder some say that if you "squeeze" one bosniak, seven serbs will come out.

Amer:
> You found examples of people saying things and being reported, but not anything about the KLA being "officially classified" as a foreign terrorist organization by the U.S. government.

What I've actually found are a whole bunch of credible sources all saying the same thing - that the state department listed the KLA as a 'terrorist organisation' ('TO' for short - good idea:)). What I've also found are US terrorism watchgroups all calling the KLA a 'TO'.

On the other hand, all you've found to support your assertion is that the KLA wasn't included in the state department's FTO reports of 97 & 99 - which isn't really surprising given that in the KLA was put on the state departments list of 'TO's in late 97 & taken off it in early 98.

On the other hand, let's for the sake of argument, say that the KLA was never put on that list. That means that ALL of these people & sources were wrong. And that I simply do not find credible.

> If it wasn't listed on the FTO reports, it wasn't subject to the restrictions as an officially recognized (by the U.S.) terrorist organization. We weren't discussing whether its actions qualified it as a TO, but merely whether it was "officially recognized" as such.

Is your assertion then that a terrorist group can only be 'officially classified' as such if they make the FTO? If so, is pretty limiting. Would mean that those who commit a major terror attack right after the publication of a report could not be 'officially classified' as such until almost 2 years down the track. True situation is more flexible than that.

In reality, US government has quite a few lists of 'TO's - ie: those on the FTO report, those on the 'Terrorism exclusion list', 'State sponsored list of TO's, those put on a list by 'the executive', etc., all of which are 'officially classified' as such.

And while I've gone along with your implicit qualification that a 'TO' can only be 'officially classified' as such by the state department since it was in that context you make your original remark, does not mean that I agree with it.

Any reputable organisation can do so.. & far more honestly than your state department whose decisions are heavily influenced by political contingencies.

> Threat, warning - that means it wasn't officially classified at that point.

Nice try but no, at least in the context you mean - that of proving that the KLA was never listed by the state dept as a TO.

This article was actually from March 99. By then KLA had been off the list for over a year. So the 'threat' dates from 99. Does however bring up something I missed..

Gelbard's 'warning' also dates from after the 'turn of the year' (ie: 99) & so this cannot be a reference to that statement he made on 23/2/98.

Doesn't however weaken the arguments I used about this topic in comment #24.

Here by the way is Jane's article: http://www.janes.com/defence/news/kosovo/misc990301_03_n.shtml

With regard to the piece in the NY Times.. an interesting parallel but, in a very real sense, is like comparing chalk & cheese (or perhaps iron & tin :)). Envoys, like ambassadors, are professional diplomats. Biden is a politician.

> It's equally easy - maybe easier - to find conspiracy theories of every stripe.

But are they credible (see above)? Put's me in mind about that conspiracy theory dealing with the 'moon landings' that someone brought up here recently. Belongs in a certain very small room.

> Well, after that time we were obviously cooperating with them. (I went back and checked 1995 - they weren't listed then, either.)

Hardly surprising.. FTO reports only starting coming out in 97 ;)

And actually saw quite a bit of cloud this morning today, but fined up nicely in the afternoon.


Nemanja, Connecticut:
Good point about Kelley's shenanigans with regard to his reports on Kosovo, but to be fair, looks like that bit about Bajrami was also fiction. Found this: http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-04-22-camp_x.htm

peter, sydney @ #24

Your intention appears to try to confuse and intimidate those that disagree with you on even the most minute matter by referencing imaginary links.
But, just like Milosevic and company, up and including the present Serb government, you make the fatal mistake of getting tripped up in your tangled web.

Notice that its written by one of your beloved Americans in perhaps one of the most eager endorsers of US foreign policy, USAToday. So what reason would they have to print a story detailing terrorist participators if it wasn't true?
So who needs to educate themselves?
(Nemanja, Connecticut, 31 July 2009 21:23)


Nemanja, have a look at this link and then come and apologise to B92 forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kelley

http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-03-18-2004-03-18_kelleymain_x.htm

Peter, Sydney:

You found examples of people saying things and being reported, but not anything about the KLA being "officially classified" as a foreign terrorist organization by the U.S. government.

"And was listed for a short while by your state department. Just never made it into the FTO reports which as you've pointed out, only come out every 2nd year."

If it wasn't listed on the FTO reports, it wasn't subject to the restrictions as an officially recognized (by the U.S.) terrorist organization. We weren't discussing whether its actions qualified it as a TO, but merely whether it was "officially recognized" as such.

'Here's another little ditty ["ditty" ?] from 'Janes' that's relevant: "The KLA does not appear on the official US State Department list of foreign terrorist organisations, and threat of its inclusion on the list is currently the only US sway over radical Albanians. After two explosions on Macedonian territory at the turn of the year, for which the KLA claimed responsibility, a clear warning was issued by Robert Gelbard, the top US envoy for former Yugoslavia."

Threat, warning - that means it wasn't officially classified at that point.

"Might also add that this confirms that Gelbards comments were anything but a 'personal opinion' as you stated earlier."

By coincidence, this point was mentioned in a NYTimes article today. (It's about Russia, but the idea is the same.):

' "If it’s not the No. 1 man or woman, clearly that person has been instructed to say what he or she said,” Mr. Pozner [Russian political commentator] said. “It’s psychologically very difficult for a Russian to believe otherwise. If you write in The New York Times whatever you write, I’m sure Mr. Putin will say, ‘Of course. It was ordered.’ ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/weekinreview/02barry.html?hpw


"> You can find links justifying almost anything you want..

Isn't hard to do when it's the truth."

It's equally easy - maybe easier - to find conspiracy theories of every stripe.


"All you 'identified' was the fact that the state department didn't have the KLA listed as a 'terrorist organisation' at two specific points in time - during 97 & 99 when the FTO reports were issued.

And I suspect that is why you are willing to 'leave it at that'."

Well, after that time we were obviously cooperating with them. (I went back and checked 1995 - they weren't listed then, either.)

@aRTA - who you kidding??

The Albanian jihadists in the KLA and Kosovo generally are Islamists pure and simple and part of the global jihad.

That is why they got help from Osama Bin Laden and sent men to Afghanistan to fight Americans etc.

And the Albanians have been happily receiving funds and new mosques from Saudi Wahhabis.

Interestingly, a Kosovo Albanian and Bosnian Muslim were just caught plotting jihad in the US.....

How does a Bosniak become a patriot? By becoming more islamic. So keep your Bosnjaci "patriotism" away from us, or else...

I read some article where this man of peace said that by Serbia joining the EU VISA regime, that the EU was "rewarding our killers", as if to say that he thinks all Serbs are killers.

That already made him look bad in my eyes.

This man is just gonna stir the pot with his fiery speeches disguised under the umbrella of a so-called peaceful and tolerant religion.

Come on George, the stereotypes like Albanians as Muslim terrorists, jihad and so on have vanished long time ago, to be more precise; with Milosevic and his disastrous adventure. So you are just wasting your breath in vain, with false hopes that don’t yield any outcome in accordance with your expectations. However I would like once more to remind you about the Albanians religious adherence; proportionally Albanians maintain three main religions almost equal: 60 % Muslims, 25 % orthodox and 15 % Catholics. Therefore, nearly 50% of Albanians are not in any case Muslims. This fact is more than enough to turn your pretentions down.
As far as the funds dedicated to Kosovo by Saudi Arabia are concerned; I would say, nothing wrong is going on about that. Saudi Arabia is a superpower in the Arabian world, and it has recognized Kosovo as an independent state recently. Why we should refuse anything in that respect? They are also the main US ally in the region.
To Peter Suduka: have you ever looked him with the sympathy? By the way, I agree with his statement regarding the EU VISA demagogy, even I had never heard him saying so.
To Dragan: Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion, and I suggest you and every one else to get some knowledge on a subject, before launching allegations as you did in here.

I am an Albanian and i say keep away from Kosova and Albania you Bosnians and extreme Muslims... We are not interested in you.

@aRTA - who you kidding??

The Albanian jihadists in the KLA and Kosovo generally are Islamists pure and simple and part of the global jihad.

That is why they got help from Osama Bin Laden and sent men to Afghanistan to fight Americans etc.

And the Albanians have been happily receiving funds and new mosques from Saudi Wahhabis.

Interestingly, a Kosovo Albanian and Bosnian Muslim were just caught plotting jihad in the US.....
(George, 31 July 2009 14:50)

I feel sorry for you George, becasue you badly been misinformed. Why don't you check Serbia's relation with rouge states that feed on islamic extremisem. Never an Albanian went to Afganistan to fight against Americans.
Please, if you have any concrete information about that, why don't you sare it with all the readers of b92 +contact US govermant about it. If I had that information I will be seatting with NSA,CIA,FBI Agents and passing on this valuble information. I love Kosova and USA, and i hate any religious extremisem.

This is the same Mustafa Cerić that is on the US State Department's blacklist of people with links to terrorism (Saudi funding of wahabis in bosnia etc.). He's had his accounts frozen etc...

Still, the KLA was also 'officially' a terrorist organization but it looks like the calculation is that as long as such groups don't kill americans, it is ok.

Laki Bani,

How peaceful is it? Look at the news: Nigeria, Saudia Arabia, Algeria, Bosnia, Chechnya etc...
Did that peaceful religion come to the Balkans when your many times great grandfather waited for them in open arms, or did he along with millions become vassals, slaves, forcibly converted.

coment #10

First of all there is no such an Albanian name as "DAMIR".

Second, can you show me a link cause I don't buy your story at all. I could write similar things about Serbia just to cook up a story, but it doeas not hold any water.

'Still, the KLA was also 'officially' a terrorist organization but it looks like the calculation is that as long as such groups don't kill americans, it is ok.'

No, the KLA was never "officially" classified as a terrorist organization. That would have meant listing it in the "Foreign Terrorist Organizations" report issued in either 1997 or 1999 (it's only issued every other year). http://www.state.gov/www/global/terrorism/terrorist_orgs_list.html. Doing this would have meant that it would have been illegal for Americans to send money to support it or to fight with it, and neither was ever outlawed.

The source of the confusion was President Clinton's special envoy to the Balkans, Robert Gelbard, describing the KLA as, "a terrorist group," but this was the opinion of a single individual, who was not at the time familiar with all the circumstances.

"I am interested in suicide operations," wrote Damir Bajrami, a 24-year-old ethnic Albanian from Kosovo, on his entry application in April 2001. "I have Kosovo Liberation Army combat experience against Serb and American forces. I need no further training. I recommend (suicide) operations against (amusement) parks like Disney."

(Nemanja, Connecticut, 31 July 2009 17:44)

KLA against Serb and American forces. How that can be?!!!!
Please Nemania, educate yourself.
KLA against American forces.. OMG what speculation! He is either brain-washed boy or media have speculated with his words. Neither way that doesn’t prospect Albanian-American relation nor it is a credible source for anti-Albanian propaganda. Actually it will have opposite effect.

Kovoso-USA wrote: "Never an Albanian went to Afganistan to fight against Americans."

No? Here's one that you missed (from an article written by USAToday's Jack Kelley on 11/26/2001 detailing Bin Laden's camps in Afghanistan):

Perhaps most telling about the minds of those who trained here is a document found at the camp. "I am interested in suicide operations," wrote Damir Bajrami, a 24-year-old ethnic Albanian from Kosovo, on his entry application in April 2001. "I have Kosovo Liberation Army combat experience against Serb and American forces. I need no further training. I recommend (suicide) operations against (amusement) parks like Disney."

Alban,

Please explain why then have so many Wahhabi-sponsored mosques been recently built in the Albanian parts of Kosovo?

Kosovo-USA,

I referenced the source.

Whether or not you choose to believe it, is inconsequential.

But here's the link anyway:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/11/26/cover.htm

Ilir,

Notice that its written by one of your beloved Americans in perhaps one of the most eager endorsers of US foreign policy, USAToday. So what reason would they have to print a story detailing terrorist participators if it wasn't true?

So everything that the US media printed - the faked deaths at Racak, the ridiculous claim of 10,000 Albanian casualties. . .etc - are true. . .except this one case of an apparent Albanian fundamentalist that wanted to kill some Americans?

How about the Fort Dix plot? Is that not true? Or this most recent terror conspiracy in North Carolina where yet another Albanian from Kosovo is involved? Let me guess? Also a lie, right?

What a way to repay the Americans for helping you steal Serbian land.

So who needs to educate themselves?

"I read some article where this man of peace said that by Serbia joining the EU VISA regime, that the EU was "rewarding our killers", as if to say that he thinks all Serbs are killers. "

Someone should ask this myfti on whose side his country is standing by not recognizing Kosovo. No wonder some say that if you "squeeze" one bosniak, seven serbs will come out.

'The 'third link' that links to this MIPT webpage is actually a wikipedia article on the KLA: [link] '

Yes, I found the wiki page, but as with so many of these Kosovo/Serbia-related articles, it's listed as disputed.

You can find links justifying almost anything you want - I identified the official U.S. government sites responsible for identifying terrorist organizations and am content to leave it at that. What others called the KLA was up to them.

And thanks, my day is going just fine - after the rain yesterday, the weather is glorious.

peter, sydney @ #24

Your intention appears to try to confuse and intimidate those that disagree with you on even the most minute matter by referencing imaginary links.
But, just like Milosevic and company, up and including the present Serb government, you make the fatal mistake of getting tripped up in your tangled web.

There's nothing wrong with him visiting Kosovo as long as there isn't any hate spech type propaganda damaging the interethnic relations.
We have seen enough of it and had it enough,EXTREMIST believers of whatever religion they belong got nothing to do with ordinary believers,therefore labeling the islam for idividual EXTREMIST actions it's not right,if so we would say the same thing for catholics,cristians,orthodoks and so on,there isn't any difference betwen European crusades in midle east and Serbian campaings in Bosnia and Kosova in the name of religion with the jihadist of the islam faith,some see it different and nobody can change their minds but it is not.
We have to see our actions in the same angle we see others,of course I'm not talking just for same bad apples that may come up time to time that have nothing to do with ordinary people in both sides.

Live in peace and love one another despite of their beliefs,none of the religion that we Europeans believe today were born in here,therefore nobody is more European than another.

Peace

I am surprised by the lies and "marketing" of our Albanian Muslim readers. Some of the international press might believe this fluff but don't expect well-informed readers to. Evidence you say??

1. David Hicks - an Australian convert to Muslim learnt jihad with the KLA and then went to help Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.
2. The KLA and its backers have engaged in of the most serious human rights violations in the last 100 years. Thousands of Serbs, (moderate) Albanian muslims, Roma, Jews, Egyptians etc murdered. Over 250,000 ethnically cleansed.
3. So-called Christian Albanians have largely supported the jihadists in Kosovo. Even the Vatican representative has supported the Islamist secessionists.
4. Lots of evidence on the strategic role and contribution of Kosovo to the global jihad. Try www.jihadwatch.org and search for "Kosovo" as a start.

So you see, you can't fool everyone...

(George)the reason why the then US president Bill Clinton promised to send Serbia back to the STONE AGE unless it stopped its policy against Albanians surely was not becouse of (Albanian jihadists) The visit from his highness the Myfti is welcome. Albanians like what he is and what he stands for, unless someone is a confused Albanian or unjustly ashamed of his/her religion.Islam was not spread by the sord otherwise there wan't be any Christian Albanians today nor any very religious Serbs for that matter.

Notice that its written by one of your beloved Americans in perhaps one of the most eager endorsers of US foreign policy, USAToday. So what reason would they have to print a story detailing terrorist participators if it wasn't true?
So who needs to educate themselves?
(Nemanja, Connecticut, 31 July 2009 21:23)


Nemanja, have a look at this link and then come and apologise to B92 forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kelley

http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-03-18-2004-03-18_kelleymain_x.htm

'What a way to repay the Americans for helping you steal Serbian land. '

Nothing any of the guys you mention did was as bad as that American who recruited Muslims to commit terror (if he did - not much info has come out yet about what they actually did). No one judges a nation by the actions of a few individuals. As for "Damir," it could just be a case of inflating his resume, so to speak, claiming to have fought the Americans.

"As far as the funds dedicated to Kosovo by Saudi Arabia are concerned; I would say, nothing wrong is going on about that."

Of course accepting money to build massive, ugly mosques that have saudi approved muftis who preach wahabism is of course ok. No problems there then.

As for Ceric, he is not stupid enough to say that he is a wahabbist, but he does nothing to spread its influence, i.e. allows it to spread passively.

From the empire approved propaganda source (BIRN):

http://www.birn.eu.com/en/75/10/2490/

INVESTIGATION: Emissaries of Militant Islam Make Headway in Bosnia

21 03 2007 Saudi-based Wahhabi fundamentalists infiltrate complacent religious structures.
***

Apart from the 'authorities' are not complacent. The dream of Alija Izetbegovic's Islamic Declaration lives on through Ceric..

Actually Islamist fundamentalism is on the rise in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
http://www.islamdaily.net/EN/Contents.aspx?AID=5609

Spiegel wrote several months ago: 'Radical Muslim imams and nationalist politicians are threatening Sarajevo's multicultural legacy. With the help of Arab benefactors, the deeply devout are acquiring new recruits. In the "Jerusalem of the Balkans," Islamists are on the rise."

It's a fact that Islamism is gaining grounds in BiH, strange that someone questions that...

'> No, the KLA was never "officially" classified as a terrorist organization.

Well actually it was:

[link]://[link]

[link]#cite_note-mipt-27 '

The first link returns "Not in archive," the second "The account you were looking for doesn't exist." The third links to the "MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base, which lists (in a sidebar) the KLA as "US Terrorist Exclusion List: No" The link (in the same sidebar) to the State Department's Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs) list leads to a list not including the KLA.

So you're left with the comment of one government official, which is not the same as the "official" position of a country. As Karadzic has learned, to his sorrow, you really have to get things in writing, and signed by people with the authority to do so.

K-albanians regard themselves as pretty secular & are happy to accept saudi dollars which is fair enough.

But brings up the question as to what will happen (is happening?) given the large numbers of unemployed & disenfranchised youth in conjunction with all these new mosques & the wahhabi brand of islam that is being practiced in them.

Any equivalents of 'madrassas' in Kosovo?


Amer:
> No, the KLA was never "officially" classified as a terrorist organization.

Well actually it was:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070402053051/http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=3517

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#cite_note-mipt-27

> Doing this would have meant that it would have been illegal for Americans to send money to support it or to fight with it, and neither was ever outlawed.

Since when has 'legality' ever stopped the yanks? And when has it ever stopped them arming & financing insurgent groups that further some sort of US aim?

> The source of the confusion was President Clinton's special envoy to the Balkans, Robert Gelbard, describing the KLA as, "a terrorist group," but this was the opinion of a single individual, who was not at the time familiar with all the circumstances.

Was stated by the 'US special envoy to the balkans' on a terrorist group operating in the balkans during the time of his mission there. And would be well aware of the terrorist activities of the KLA at that time.

Envoys do not give 'opinions' in this context 'Amer'. They are briefed by their staff & their statements reflect their countries official positions at the time.

You are having a bad day aren't you.

Amer:
You said:
> The third links to the "MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base, which lists (in a sidebar) the KLA as "US Terrorist Exclusion List: No" The link (in the same sidebar) to the State Department's Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs) list leads to a list not including the KLA.

'MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base' article on the KLA was actually the webpage that '[link]://[link]' was supposed to link to. And you're correct when you say that the KLA is not 'currently' listed as a terrorist group by the US state dept.

But that's about all you're right about.


You initially said:
> No, the KLA was never "officially" classified as a terrorist organization.

The MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base lists terrorist organisations - both past & present. And the KLA was officially classified as a terrorist group by MIPT, which I might add, is funded by your dept. of 'homeland' security. That is why the KLA has it's very own webpage there.

On that webpage that you've referred to, you'll also find multiple links to MIPT classified 'terrorist incidents' in which the KLA is described as a 'terrorist organisation'.

The 'third link' that links to this MIPT webpage is actually a wikipedia article on the KLA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army

That article says that the U.S. State Department listed the KLA as a terrorist organization until 1998. That France delisted it later that same year. That the KLA is in the MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base list of terrorist groups (see above), that it is listed as an inactive terrorist organization by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism from Homeland Security, & is listed as a terrorist group by your own Council of Foreign Relations.


You said:
> So you're left with the comment of one government official, which is not the same as the "official" position of a country.

Wrong again - make that a real bad day...

Gelbard wasn't just some nameless government official, he was Clinton's special envoy to the balkans - & was so when he said the following:

"We condemn very strongly terrorist actions in Kosovo. The UCK is, without any question, a terrorist group"

Not 'I', but 'We'.

Repeating:
Envoys do not give personal 'opinions' during their 'stint of duty', especially when that 'opinion' references material in the 'sphere of that duty'.

He was saying what he was told to say.


Regarding the links, sometimes when pasting these things the editor that B92 uses breaks up the 'addresses' (when it runs into a character like '+', ',' embedded 'http' links etc)

For instance, the address I gave above..

:http://web.archive.org/web/20070402053051/http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=3517

.. can be reached by doing the following:

1: 'left-click' on the 1st link,
2: in the new window/tab - delete the last 4 characters in the address bar,
3: go back to this comment & 'right-click' on the 2nd link,
4: on the menu displayed - 'left-click' on 'Properties',
5: copy the address shown in the 'pop-up',
5: paste it at the end of the address bar of the new window/tab &
6: hit 'enter/return'.

And this is in fact the "MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base" article to which you referred to above.

Hope your day improves ;)

Peter, Sydney:

You found examples of people saying things and being reported, but not anything about the KLA being "officially classified" as a foreign terrorist organization by the U.S. government.

"And was listed for a short while by your state department. Just never made it into the FTO reports which as you've pointed out, only come out every 2nd year."

If it wasn't listed on the FTO reports, it wasn't subject to the restrictions as an officially recognized (by the U.S.) terrorist organization. We weren't discussing whether its actions qualified it as a TO, but merely whether it was "officially recognized" as such.

'Here's another little ditty ["ditty" ?] from 'Janes' that's relevant: "The KLA does not appear on the official US State Department list of foreign terrorist organisations, and threat of its inclusion on the list is currently the only US sway over radical Albanians. After two explosions on Macedonian territory at the turn of the year, for which the KLA claimed responsibility, a clear warning was issued by Robert Gelbard, the top US envoy for former Yugoslavia."

Threat, warning - that means it wasn't officially classified at that point.

"Might also add that this confirms that Gelbards comments were anything but a 'personal opinion' as you stated earlier."

By coincidence, this point was mentioned in a NYTimes article today. (It's about Russia, but the idea is the same.):

' "If it’s not the No. 1 man or woman, clearly that person has been instructed to say what he or she said,” Mr. Pozner [Russian political commentator] said. “It’s psychologically very difficult for a Russian to believe otherwise. If you write in The New York Times whatever you write, I’m sure Mr. Putin will say, ‘Of course. It was ordered.’ ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/weekinreview/02barry.html?hpw


"> You can find links justifying almost anything you want..

Isn't hard to do when it's the truth."

It's equally easy - maybe easier - to find conspiracy theories of every stripe.


"All you 'identified' was the fact that the state department didn't have the KLA listed as a 'terrorist organisation' at two specific points in time - during 97 & 99 when the FTO reports were issued.

And I suspect that is why you are willing to 'leave it at that'."

Well, after that time we were obviously cooperating with them. (I went back and checked 1995 - they weren't listed then, either.)

Amer:
Wasn't actually going to say anything else on this subject apart possibly from a comment on the weather;) but have to see somebody about a monkey...

Wiki page is listed as being in dispute certainly but the argument is about whether or not KLA was officially classified as a 'terrorist organisation'.

And the references I made have sources whose validity is not in dispute (as wiki's policy on 'sources' is pretty rigorous as is evident from their 'discussions' section - which I personally find more interesting than the articles themselves).

Some more 'detail' for you:

"In 1998, the U.S. State Department listed the KLA as a terrorist organization, indicating that it was financing its operations with money from the international heroin trade and loans from Islamic countries and individuals, among them allegedly Usama bin Laden." http://judiciary.house.gov/Legacy/muts1213.htm

This is a list of 'terrorist groups' including guess who: http://www.cfr.org/publication/10159/

Sourced from the 'MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base' & essentially the same: http://www.start.umd.edu/start/data/tops/terrorist_organization_profile.asp?id=3517

"As late as 1997, the KLA had been recognized by the U.S. as a terrorist organisation supported in part by heroin trafficking.SCOTT, Peter Dale (2003): Drugs, Oil and War. Rowman & Littlefield."

And "Nevertheless, by February 1998 the KLA was removed from the United States State Department's terrorism list "Al Qaeda's Balkan Links", The Wall Street Journal Europe, 1 November 2001." http://en.allexperts.com/e/k/ko/kosovo_liberation_army.htm

"The americans removed the KLA from its list of terrorist organizations in 1998.." http://books.google.com/books?id=OjvdsfiWwJcC&pg=PA68&vq=kla+terrorist&dq=terrorism+knowledge+database+kla#v=onepage&q=kla%20terrorist&f=false

Is patently obvious that the KLA was a terrorist organisation. And was listed for a short while by your state department. Just never made it into the FTO reports which as you've pointed out, only come out every 2nd year.

Here's another little ditty from 'Janes' that's relevant: "The KLA does not appear on the official US State Department list of foreign terrorist organisations, and threat of its inclusion on the list is currently the only US sway over radical Albanians. After two explosions on Macedonian territory at the turn of the year, for which the KLA claimed responsibility, a clear warning was issued by Robert Gelbard, the top US envoy for former Yugoslavia."

This bit came out after the state dept took the KLA of it's list of 'terrorist organisations' in Feb 98 as is obvious by the reference to Gelbards comments (which we were discussing earlier).

Seems that the only reason the KLA didn't make that FTO list was because they 'played ball' with the US.

Might also add that this confirms that Gelbards comments were anything but a 'personal opinion' as you stated earlier.

> You can find links justifying almost anything you want..

Isn't hard to do when it's the truth.

> ..I identified the official U.S. government sites responsible for identifying terrorist organizations and am content to leave it at that.

All you 'identified' was the fact that the state department didn't have the KLA listed as a 'terrorist organisation' at two specific points in time - during 97 & 99 when the FTO reports were issued.

And I suspect that is why you are willing to 'leave it at that'.

And as for the weather, here in Sydney has been almost perfect for winter for the past 2 weeks - clear blue skies, no smog & mostly a pleasant 19 degrees celsius during the day - 66 fahrenheit for you american 'imperialists' ;)


Orgin Grinder:
> Your intention appears to try to confuse and intimidate those that disagree with you on even the most minute matter by referencing imaginary links.

Actually my 'intention' is & has always been to combat the disinformation, distortions & outright lies being published here, which is why most of my comments have been in the nature of 'rebuttals'.

However if you find logical debate 'confusing & intimidating', then I would suggest that you are on the wrong forum.

Imaginary links?

Actually went into a fair amount of detail about this in my previous comment (#24) on this thread - which you've referenced in your comment. Assume you've read it.. was the last part.

Can only assume then that you were 'confused' & didn't understand the 'step-by-step' instructions.

So here's an alternate route to get to that pesky link.. might add that this was probably the way that 'Amer' accessed that same link.

1: click on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army,
2: go to the bottom of the page, & find the 'References' section,
3: find reference #28, & click on the link 'MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base'.

Let me know if you find that 'imaginary'.

Flamur,

Oh man. . .did you shoot yourself in the foot with this post?!

Your links clearly indicate that he fabricated at least 8 major stories from "Cuba, Israel and Serbia."

Doesn't say anything about Afghanistan.

Do you not believe that there's terrorists in Afghanistan, Flamur? Your American friends might not appreciate that.

If anything, Jack Kelley should retract all the garbage that he published while writing about Kosovo.

Let's begin:

* One of Kelley's most famous stories, and in fact the one that fatefully aroused a colleague's suspicion, was a July 14 1999 revelation in which he claimed to have seen a notebook in which the Yugoslav army ordered the ethnic cleansing of an Albanian village in Kosovo. This was supposed to be "smoking gun" stuff against Milosevic, and ran on the paper's front page. Ironically, while this story was all a product of his imagination.

* Or how about this little gem:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/kosovo/koso1055.htm

As it turns out, Flamur. . .completely made up. . .just like most of the silly stories coming out Kosovo in 1999 (Racak, 100,000 dead in stadium. . .etc)

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Amer:
> You found examples of people saying things and being reported, but not anything about the KLA being "officially classified" as a foreign terrorist organization by the U.S. government.

What I've actually found are a whole bunch of credible sources all saying the same thing - that the state department listed the KLA as a 'terrorist organisation' ('TO' for short - good idea:)). What I've also found are US terrorism watchgroups all calling the KLA a 'TO'.

On the other hand, all you've found to support your assertion is that the KLA wasn't included in the state department's FTO reports of 97 & 99 - which isn't really surprising given that in the KLA was put on the state departments list of 'TO's in late 97 & taken off it in early 98.

On the other hand, let's for the sake of argument, say that the KLA was never put on that list. That means that ALL of these people & sources were wrong. And that I simply do not find credible.

> If it wasn't listed on the FTO reports, it wasn't subject to the restrictions as an officially recognized (by the U.S.) terrorist organization. We weren't discussing whether its actions qualified it as a TO, but merely whether it was "officially recognized" as such.

Is your assertion then that a terrorist group can only be 'officially classified' as such if they make the FTO? If so, is pretty limiting. Would mean that those who commit a major terror attack right after the publication of a report could not be 'officially classified' as such until almost 2 years down the track. True situation is more flexible than that.

In reality, US government has quite a few lists of 'TO's - ie: those on the FTO report, those on the 'Terrorism exclusion list', 'State sponsored list of TO's, those put on a list by 'the executive', etc., all of which are 'officially classified' as such.

And while I've gone along with your implicit qualification that a 'TO' can only be 'officially classified' as such by the state department since it was in that context you make your original remark, does not mean that I agree with it.

Any reputable organisation can do so.. & far more honestly than your state department whose decisions are heavily influenced by political contingencies.

> Threat, warning - that means it wasn't officially classified at that point.

Nice try but no, at least in the context you mean - that of proving that the KLA was never listed by the state dept as a TO.

This article was actually from March 99. By then KLA had been off the list for over a year. So the 'threat' dates from 99. Does however bring up something I missed..

Gelbard's 'warning' also dates from after the 'turn of the year' (ie: 99) & so this cannot be a reference to that statement he made on 23/2/98.

Doesn't however weaken the arguments I used about this topic in comment #24.

Here by the way is Jane's article: http://www.janes.com/defence/news/kosovo/misc990301_03_n.shtml

With regard to the piece in the NY Times.. an interesting parallel but, in a very real sense, is like comparing chalk & cheese (or perhaps iron & tin :)). Envoys, like ambassadors, are professional diplomats. Biden is a politician.

> It's equally easy - maybe easier - to find conspiracy theories of every stripe.

But are they credible (see above)? Put's me in mind about that conspiracy theory dealing with the 'moon landings' that someone brought up here recently. Belongs in a certain very small room.

> Well, after that time we were obviously cooperating with them. (I went back and checked 1995 - they weren't listed then, either.)

Hardly surprising.. FTO reports only starting coming out in 97 ;)

And actually saw quite a bit of cloud this morning today, but fined up nicely in the afternoon.


Nemanja, Connecticut:
Good point about Kelley's shenanigans with regard to his reports on Kosovo, but to be fair, looks like that bit about Bajrami was also fiction. Found this: http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-04-22-camp_x.htm