14

Thursday, 07.08.2008.

09:18

Ljajić: Hague business as usual

Rasim Ljajić says that there are no special activities or searches currently in progress for the remaining Hague fugitives.

Izvor: Wolfgang Petritsch; Kaser; Pichler

Ljajiæ: Hague business as usual IMAGE SOURCE
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14 Komentari

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Michael John

pre 17 godina

Rote Kappele,

In your post #9 you accuse the US of involving Russia with a war with Georgia. Care to
substantiate this!

"So wait a bit more and you will see quite another Russia. Bad news is that the US involves us in the war in Georgia. They want Georgia to be defeated by Russia but Russia want Georgia be defeated (as usual) by Ossetians. What surprises me here is that the Serbs cannot see that the war in South Ossetia is a war for Serbia ! Uncle Sam wishes to tie our hands there or ещ exchange Georgia for Iran ... I am afraid they will succeed in involving ."

Please realize that baseless statements such as these only serve to discredit you and embarrass most Slav people.

However,If it gives you pleasure to express your hate for America that is your prerogative, but you should remember that the USA is still feeding some of your people as well as funding B92, the site you are expressing yourself on.

Peter Sudyka

pre 17 godina

Ataman

"Unfortunately Hague discredited itself to such degree, that ANY sentence he would receive will make him hero. "

Here I agree, I do not believe the Hague was entirely fair, especially with regards to the Bosnian War and those responsible for the deaths. It truly was a three way war, just just one country's fault.

Rote Kapella

"This man's name is Billy Clinton !"

I agree, especially with how he handled the Kosovo War outside of the UN. Unfortunately, the ICJ is a pro-Western court, but that still does not excuse Mladic.

"But I have true information that only Serbs are prosecuted."

There were some Bosniaks, Croats and Albanians that were prosecuted, though indeed surprizingly few when one looks at Operation Storm or the post 1999 Kosovo violence.

"On one hand as a Slaw and a Christian you admitt (silently) that the West is too cruel and unjust to them. On the other hand as a Pole and a wetern minded you hate them for their feelings towaeds Russia."

Yes and no. Yes, I sympathize with Christian Slavic Serbia with whom we fought against the Ottomans and the Nazis (I have such sympathy towards all Slavs, apart from Muslim Bosniaks). My negative feelings towards Serbia have nothing to do with Russia (I have nothing against Russia, apart from imperialist/chauvinist Russian nationalists who have more of a problem with us Poles than we do with them), it has more to do with the fact that Serbia has been a country that has suffered much, has bled much, like Poland has, and when I hear about such behavior such as Vukovar, Sarajevo, Dubrovnik and Srebrenica, it makes me sad that they can behave like their oppressors. Unfortunately, Russia can be the same: it also has been through hell in the past, but it has inflicted hell too.

Thoughtful

pre 17 godina

Bragon,
I would like to ask you if you have in mind wars that civilians were not murdered. Just to remind you: in the second world war 2 atomic bombs were dropped against civilians. German cities like Dresden were heavily bombed in order to break the moral of the rivals. In Iraq, many dozens of thousands of civilians have died as a result of the invasion. Do you think war is like a football game and the ones who violate the rules commit “war crimes” and a sentence should be imposed on them? According to your thought all the political leaders whose countries were involved in wars could be characterized easily as “war criminals”. The political leaders, like Milosevic, Tudzman, Karazic etc. have responsibilities in the sense that their policies led to the wars. But a court can not by definition try political responsibilities. [In my view that is an important reason the tribunal failed to establish the guiltiness of Milosevic and since they could not find him “not guilty”, eventually it was decided to murder him directly or indirectly].
The death of civilians by violence or starvation (sanctions is also a weapon) Only violations of penal code. A political leader like the above can not be considered guilty for war crimes unless he ordered like Hitler the genocide of Jews or like the Turk leaders the extermination of Armenians during the first world war.
So, the correct question is not whether civilians were massacred (a n honest answer is that all sides did it in the Yugoslav civil wars, although not at the same extent), but what was the character of the wars? The wars in Bosnia, Croatia was an effort by Serbia to conquer and form the Greater Serbia as the mainstream western media (and many Serbs) claim, an offensive war by Serbia against Bosnia using as proxy the leadership of Bosnian Serbs? I think that since Croats and later on Muslims decided to leave Yugoslavia exercising the right to self determination (although the unilateral secessions were illegal according to 1974 federal constitution), the Serbs in these 2 republics had the same right to self determination.
Now, if you think who finances the Hague tribunal (the countries that attacked Yugoslavia) and what purposes it serves (it is not coincidence that the verdict against Milosevic was issued in May 1999 during the NATO offensive against Yugoslavia) you will understand that only naïve people think that the court can be unbiased. Is it accidental that although depleted uranium was dropped at the territory of Yugoslavia, the court failed even to address it? Was the bombardment of TV Serbia a war crime or not? The air strikes against civilians? The attacks against Serb civilians by the forces of Odric prior to Srebrenica massacre? The killings of Serb civilians (and probably the sale of their organs) by the KLA? The aim of the court is to punish the ones who violated the rules of war, but the ones who dared to confront USA imperialism. At the face of Milosevic, Karazic the Serbian resistance is accused. Since ancient years, there is no mercy for the defeated. Of course, only a nation with total lack of dignity, with begger mentality can deliver its leaders in order to satisfy the demands of the Great European powers and USA.
If I understand correctly, the Serbs are ready to do almost everything, to kneel, in order to get EU membership. It is their choice, but they are not going to get any respect.
Last, but not least, I would like to stress, in order to avoid misunderstandings I would like to stress that the policies of Milosevic were disastrous (but at least he had unlike his successors, some dignity) and Karazic was/is an extreme nationalist. But the court is not the appropriate place to deal with that….

Rote Kapelle

pre 17 godina

" ... a man who ordered the death of thousands of civilians..."

This man's name is Billy Clinton ! He has encoraged the Croats , the Bosniaks and the Albanians. He is to be taken to the Court. All the rest even if they too committed crimes are to be punished next. Furst we must prosecute Helmut Kohl and then Slobo , Tony Blaire and then Izetbegovich ect. The guilt of the Serbs was nothing more than the constitutional defend of the state. So they are the last to be prosecuted. Croats and Bosniaks and Albanians should go to Haague next after the western leaders. Only then you may talk of Serbian crimes.

I have no true information of how many civillians were killed by the Serbian militaries and how many by the others. But I have true information that only Serbs are prosecuted. 20% of sentenced Croats and total 11 % of Albanians and Bosniaks is just a show directed from Washington.

Otherwise they cannot close the bloody page of NATO crimes. But NATO fought on every side which opposed Serbs. I do not doubt that if today the Serbs fight Robert Mugabe or Ahmadinejad NATO will support Serbia's enemies.

Peter I can see your mixed feelings toward Serbs. On one hand as a Slaw and a Christian you admitt (silently) that the West is too cruel and unjust to them. On the other hand as a Pole and a wetern minded you hate them for their feelings towaeds Russia. You can do nothing about that because even Tadic upto now has failed to bring a split between the two nations. We are on our way for gaining strength and unity. Be as realistic as you new PM to replace one of the Xeroxes.

Rote Kapella

pre 17 godina

Ataman

As you know it took 6 years that the USSR has totally recovered from Hitler and it's been 17 years that we cannot recover from the Democrats which once commanded in Kremlin. We used to have a Boris of our own ...

Everything you say is so but the changes here are drastic so very soon you will be more proud of the Russian part of your blood. If you forget for a while any ideology you will find that Putin like Stalin in 1922 has got a ruined and demoralized country. And though I approve only 70% of what he is doing I know it for certain that this is a name to be remembered for centuries. I also believe that he is the gretest man of today's world. But please mention I never voted for him for I believe he is not enough radical ...

So wait a bit more and you will see quite another Russia. Bad news is that the US involves us in the war in Georgia. They want Georgia to be defeated by Russia but Russia want Georgia be defeated (as usual) by Ossetians. What surprises me here is that the Serbs cannot see that the war in South Ossetia is a war for Serbia ! Uncle Sam wishes to tie our hands there or ещ exchange Georgia for Iran ... I am afraid they will succeed in involving .

Будь здоров !

Ataman

pre 17 godina

The fact that he did it to protect Serbian interests is commendable, but what he did and how he did it is simply wrong, there is no excuse for the murder of civilians.
(Petrer Sudyka, 7 August 2008 14:43)


The question posed therefore is do you think that mass murder and / or murder of civilians should go unpunished? If not what do you propose? And why do you not say state this clearly?
(bganon, 7 August 2008 13:53)

Agree with both of you.

He essentially did protect СФРJ from an aggressor, but it is merely a fact to milden the verdict. He is seriously accused to steal serious amount of money and seriously accused to be at least indirectly involved in death of SOME civilians (let's be gentle towards Serbia and say, we do not know precisely, how many yet, but SOME likely).

Both are very serious accusations and under normal circumstances he should stay trial in Бања Лука and if both accusations are true, than a double-digit sentence is likely. Even if he did protect СФРJ from an aggressor.

Unfortunately Hague discredited itself to such degree, that ANY sentence he would receive will make him hero.

I would also be very careful for warm and fuzzy Serbo-Russian feelings. They are great on the level of private people. I don't trust any "friendship" between countries (it's a complete BS) and there is no need to fuel feelings of some desperate Serbs. It's bad enough Americans do the same with Albanians.

Rote Kapelle

pre 17 godina

bganon

" ... do you think that mass murder and / or murder of civilians should go unpunished? If not what do you propose? And why do you not say state this clearly ? "

As clear as I can :

1. I damn every single murderer whoever he is to say nothing of mass the massacres.

2. I am sure that all killers must be punished even if they only gave orders but not pulled the triggers.

3. But because in Haague being a Serb is already a crime and because the Tribunal has been established not to follow the criminals but to defend NATO as the the main criminal , the real sponsor and an active part in all wars on Balkans the Tribunal must be closed as soon as possible.

4. They don't prosecute crimes but they only punish Serbs ! So if we set free all Snakes , Haradiais , Izetbegoviches , Orices and almost all the Croats then there must be an amnesty for the Serbs too.

5. Serbs are choosen as the victims because in general they don't accept the dictate of the West and because they are the only nation in Europe that did not betray Russia . So best thing Russia can do is to defend Serbs as if they were 100% Russians.

6. Serbs were the only nation of Yugoslavia which during the conflicts discussed in general acted within the existing Yugoslavian and International legislation. All the rest including NATO have been violating both of them.

Petrer Sudyka

pre 17 godina

Rote Kapella

Why do you politicize and nationalize the issue when it has to do with a man who ordered the death of thousands of civilians?

The fact that he did it to protect Serbian interests is commendable, but what he did and how he did it is simply wrong, there is no excuse for the murder of civilians.

Ataman

pre 17 godina

Живео Србиjя !
(Rote Kapelle, 7 August 2008 11:12)

This where I certainly agree with you, RK. But I would like to see everyone from all sides of conflict, including NATO, who has blood on their hands (or money in their pockets) and being involved in destruction of СФРJ having 10 to 25 years without parole.

My joy of Russian-Serbian alliance is somewhat hold back seeing how some Russian government bureaucrats "take care" about own citizens. Like fares being inflated during Yakunin's reign to a degree unheard of. 30000 Rbl for a Moscow-Vladik? Is Yakunin crazy? Or how overseas Russians are treated by consulates. Every time you enter these buildings your back gets a feeling difficult to describe. Look at how many elderly people who worked and fought for their Fatherland are being treated now. Many commies are so happy now - they can steal without all the marxist-leninist "baggage" of the past to take care of.

Once the government looks like being interested to take care about OWN citizens, we can see, how they are interested to take care about their closest allies. I am in the "somewhat optimistic" mood now, it seems, Medvedyev has some positive attitude but old habits die hard.

bganon

pre 17 godina

Rote Kapelle, I may have serious doubts about the Hague tribunal but personally I also wonder.

I wonder how much pride there is in housing those accused of the massacre of civilians. I wonder how dignified a person can be to let these same people walk the streets as their children do.

The point that those with a view like yours keep getting wrong, again and again, in that you NEVER say that these people should be tried at all (by Serbian or other courts).

The question posed therefore is do you think that mass murder and / or murder of civilians should go unpunished? If not what do you propose? And why do you not say state this clearly?

Rote Kapelle

pre 17 godina

Those people who seized the state power in Belgrad if necessary are ready to take off their trunks and sing God Bless America day and night ... I wonder how far are they ready to go to provide the background for their inevitable political exile ? Hopefully many of those prosecuted in Haague will once have their monuments in a Heroes Avenue somewhere in Belgrad. Hopefully some day Serbs will stop self torturing to amuse their enemies and obtain the dignity and national pride of their ancestors.

Nothing is lost yet ! The Kosovo project have already failed ! The US is entering a severe crisis ! Russia is regaining it's natural power ! All the Serbs need now is to stand and wait for a while ! That's why the comprador Serbs are in such a hurry. They know how short of time they really are ...

Живео Србиjя !

Ahmet Isufi

pre 17 godina

Mladic is staying in a military bunker near Macedonian border, along with at least 200 Serbian army soldiers. Also, he is in poor health and needs some serious medical treatment.

PRN

pre 17 godina

Tadic & Co determined to take people of Serbia into EU, on one-by-one basis. Last week Karadzic got EU- member-for-life status, in a coming week or so Mladic, then Hodzic. It may go slow but this EU project is SURE to succeed.

just keep it up!

Rote Kapelle

pre 17 godina

Those people who seized the state power in Belgrad if necessary are ready to take off their trunks and sing God Bless America day and night ... I wonder how far are they ready to go to provide the background for their inevitable political exile ? Hopefully many of those prosecuted in Haague will once have their monuments in a Heroes Avenue somewhere in Belgrad. Hopefully some day Serbs will stop self torturing to amuse their enemies and obtain the dignity and national pride of their ancestors.

Nothing is lost yet ! The Kosovo project have already failed ! The US is entering a severe crisis ! Russia is regaining it's natural power ! All the Serbs need now is to stand and wait for a while ! That's why the comprador Serbs are in such a hurry. They know how short of time they really are ...

Живео Србиjя !

Rote Kapelle

pre 17 godina

bganon

" ... do you think that mass murder and / or murder of civilians should go unpunished? If not what do you propose? And why do you not say state this clearly ? "

As clear as I can :

1. I damn every single murderer whoever he is to say nothing of mass the massacres.

2. I am sure that all killers must be punished even if they only gave orders but not pulled the triggers.

3. But because in Haague being a Serb is already a crime and because the Tribunal has been established not to follow the criminals but to defend NATO as the the main criminal , the real sponsor and an active part in all wars on Balkans the Tribunal must be closed as soon as possible.

4. They don't prosecute crimes but they only punish Serbs ! So if we set free all Snakes , Haradiais , Izetbegoviches , Orices and almost all the Croats then there must be an amnesty for the Serbs too.

5. Serbs are choosen as the victims because in general they don't accept the dictate of the West and because they are the only nation in Europe that did not betray Russia . So best thing Russia can do is to defend Serbs as if they were 100% Russians.

6. Serbs were the only nation of Yugoslavia which during the conflicts discussed in general acted within the existing Yugoslavian and International legislation. All the rest including NATO have been violating both of them.

bganon

pre 17 godina

Rote Kapelle, I may have serious doubts about the Hague tribunal but personally I also wonder.

I wonder how much pride there is in housing those accused of the massacre of civilians. I wonder how dignified a person can be to let these same people walk the streets as their children do.

The point that those with a view like yours keep getting wrong, again and again, in that you NEVER say that these people should be tried at all (by Serbian or other courts).

The question posed therefore is do you think that mass murder and / or murder of civilians should go unpunished? If not what do you propose? And why do you not say state this clearly?

PRN

pre 17 godina

Tadic & Co determined to take people of Serbia into EU, on one-by-one basis. Last week Karadzic got EU- member-for-life status, in a coming week or so Mladic, then Hodzic. It may go slow but this EU project is SURE to succeed.

just keep it up!

Rote Kapelle

pre 17 godina

" ... a man who ordered the death of thousands of civilians..."

This man's name is Billy Clinton ! He has encoraged the Croats , the Bosniaks and the Albanians. He is to be taken to the Court. All the rest even if they too committed crimes are to be punished next. Furst we must prosecute Helmut Kohl and then Slobo , Tony Blaire and then Izetbegovich ect. The guilt of the Serbs was nothing more than the constitutional defend of the state. So they are the last to be prosecuted. Croats and Bosniaks and Albanians should go to Haague next after the western leaders. Only then you may talk of Serbian crimes.

I have no true information of how many civillians were killed by the Serbian militaries and how many by the others. But I have true information that only Serbs are prosecuted. 20% of sentenced Croats and total 11 % of Albanians and Bosniaks is just a show directed from Washington.

Otherwise they cannot close the bloody page of NATO crimes. But NATO fought on every side which opposed Serbs. I do not doubt that if today the Serbs fight Robert Mugabe or Ahmadinejad NATO will support Serbia's enemies.

Peter I can see your mixed feelings toward Serbs. On one hand as a Slaw and a Christian you admitt (silently) that the West is too cruel and unjust to them. On the other hand as a Pole and a wetern minded you hate them for their feelings towaeds Russia. You can do nothing about that because even Tadic upto now has failed to bring a split between the two nations. We are on our way for gaining strength and unity. Be as realistic as you new PM to replace one of the Xeroxes.

Petrer Sudyka

pre 17 godina

Rote Kapella

Why do you politicize and nationalize the issue when it has to do with a man who ordered the death of thousands of civilians?

The fact that he did it to protect Serbian interests is commendable, but what he did and how he did it is simply wrong, there is no excuse for the murder of civilians.

Rote Kapella

pre 17 godina

Ataman

As you know it took 6 years that the USSR has totally recovered from Hitler and it's been 17 years that we cannot recover from the Democrats which once commanded in Kremlin. We used to have a Boris of our own ...

Everything you say is so but the changes here are drastic so very soon you will be more proud of the Russian part of your blood. If you forget for a while any ideology you will find that Putin like Stalin in 1922 has got a ruined and demoralized country. And though I approve only 70% of what he is doing I know it for certain that this is a name to be remembered for centuries. I also believe that he is the gretest man of today's world. But please mention I never voted for him for I believe he is not enough radical ...

So wait a bit more and you will see quite another Russia. Bad news is that the US involves us in the war in Georgia. They want Georgia to be defeated by Russia but Russia want Georgia be defeated (as usual) by Ossetians. What surprises me here is that the Serbs cannot see that the war in South Ossetia is a war for Serbia ! Uncle Sam wishes to tie our hands there or ещ exchange Georgia for Iran ... I am afraid they will succeed in involving .

Будь здоров !

Ahmet Isufi

pre 17 godina

Mladic is staying in a military bunker near Macedonian border, along with at least 200 Serbian army soldiers. Also, he is in poor health and needs some serious medical treatment.

Ataman

pre 17 godina

The fact that he did it to protect Serbian interests is commendable, but what he did and how he did it is simply wrong, there is no excuse for the murder of civilians.
(Petrer Sudyka, 7 August 2008 14:43)


The question posed therefore is do you think that mass murder and / or murder of civilians should go unpunished? If not what do you propose? And why do you not say state this clearly?
(bganon, 7 August 2008 13:53)

Agree with both of you.

He essentially did protect СФРJ from an aggressor, but it is merely a fact to milden the verdict. He is seriously accused to steal serious amount of money and seriously accused to be at least indirectly involved in death of SOME civilians (let's be gentle towards Serbia and say, we do not know precisely, how many yet, but SOME likely).

Both are very serious accusations and under normal circumstances he should stay trial in Бања Лука and if both accusations are true, than a double-digit sentence is likely. Even if he did protect СФРJ from an aggressor.

Unfortunately Hague discredited itself to such degree, that ANY sentence he would receive will make him hero.

I would also be very careful for warm and fuzzy Serbo-Russian feelings. They are great on the level of private people. I don't trust any "friendship" between countries (it's a complete BS) and there is no need to fuel feelings of some desperate Serbs. It's bad enough Americans do the same with Albanians.

Ataman

pre 17 godina

Живео Србиjя !
(Rote Kapelle, 7 August 2008 11:12)

This where I certainly agree with you, RK. But I would like to see everyone from all sides of conflict, including NATO, who has blood on their hands (or money in their pockets) and being involved in destruction of СФРJ having 10 to 25 years without parole.

My joy of Russian-Serbian alliance is somewhat hold back seeing how some Russian government bureaucrats "take care" about own citizens. Like fares being inflated during Yakunin's reign to a degree unheard of. 30000 Rbl for a Moscow-Vladik? Is Yakunin crazy? Or how overseas Russians are treated by consulates. Every time you enter these buildings your back gets a feeling difficult to describe. Look at how many elderly people who worked and fought for their Fatherland are being treated now. Many commies are so happy now - they can steal without all the marxist-leninist "baggage" of the past to take care of.

Once the government looks like being interested to take care about OWN citizens, we can see, how they are interested to take care about their closest allies. I am in the "somewhat optimistic" mood now, it seems, Medvedyev has some positive attitude but old habits die hard.

Thoughtful

pre 17 godina

Bragon,
I would like to ask you if you have in mind wars that civilians were not murdered. Just to remind you: in the second world war 2 atomic bombs were dropped against civilians. German cities like Dresden were heavily bombed in order to break the moral of the rivals. In Iraq, many dozens of thousands of civilians have died as a result of the invasion. Do you think war is like a football game and the ones who violate the rules commit “war crimes” and a sentence should be imposed on them? According to your thought all the political leaders whose countries were involved in wars could be characterized easily as “war criminals”. The political leaders, like Milosevic, Tudzman, Karazic etc. have responsibilities in the sense that their policies led to the wars. But a court can not by definition try political responsibilities. [In my view that is an important reason the tribunal failed to establish the guiltiness of Milosevic and since they could not find him “not guilty”, eventually it was decided to murder him directly or indirectly].
The death of civilians by violence or starvation (sanctions is also a weapon) Only violations of penal code. A political leader like the above can not be considered guilty for war crimes unless he ordered like Hitler the genocide of Jews or like the Turk leaders the extermination of Armenians during the first world war.
So, the correct question is not whether civilians were massacred (a n honest answer is that all sides did it in the Yugoslav civil wars, although not at the same extent), but what was the character of the wars? The wars in Bosnia, Croatia was an effort by Serbia to conquer and form the Greater Serbia as the mainstream western media (and many Serbs) claim, an offensive war by Serbia against Bosnia using as proxy the leadership of Bosnian Serbs? I think that since Croats and later on Muslims decided to leave Yugoslavia exercising the right to self determination (although the unilateral secessions were illegal according to 1974 federal constitution), the Serbs in these 2 republics had the same right to self determination.
Now, if you think who finances the Hague tribunal (the countries that attacked Yugoslavia) and what purposes it serves (it is not coincidence that the verdict against Milosevic was issued in May 1999 during the NATO offensive against Yugoslavia) you will understand that only naïve people think that the court can be unbiased. Is it accidental that although depleted uranium was dropped at the territory of Yugoslavia, the court failed even to address it? Was the bombardment of TV Serbia a war crime or not? The air strikes against civilians? The attacks against Serb civilians by the forces of Odric prior to Srebrenica massacre? The killings of Serb civilians (and probably the sale of their organs) by the KLA? The aim of the court is to punish the ones who violated the rules of war, but the ones who dared to confront USA imperialism. At the face of Milosevic, Karazic the Serbian resistance is accused. Since ancient years, there is no mercy for the defeated. Of course, only a nation with total lack of dignity, with begger mentality can deliver its leaders in order to satisfy the demands of the Great European powers and USA.
If I understand correctly, the Serbs are ready to do almost everything, to kneel, in order to get EU membership. It is their choice, but they are not going to get any respect.
Last, but not least, I would like to stress, in order to avoid misunderstandings I would like to stress that the policies of Milosevic were disastrous (but at least he had unlike his successors, some dignity) and Karazic was/is an extreme nationalist. But the court is not the appropriate place to deal with that….

Peter Sudyka

pre 17 godina

Ataman

"Unfortunately Hague discredited itself to such degree, that ANY sentence he would receive will make him hero. "

Here I agree, I do not believe the Hague was entirely fair, especially with regards to the Bosnian War and those responsible for the deaths. It truly was a three way war, just just one country's fault.

Rote Kapella

"This man's name is Billy Clinton !"

I agree, especially with how he handled the Kosovo War outside of the UN. Unfortunately, the ICJ is a pro-Western court, but that still does not excuse Mladic.

"But I have true information that only Serbs are prosecuted."

There were some Bosniaks, Croats and Albanians that were prosecuted, though indeed surprizingly few when one looks at Operation Storm or the post 1999 Kosovo violence.

"On one hand as a Slaw and a Christian you admitt (silently) that the West is too cruel and unjust to them. On the other hand as a Pole and a wetern minded you hate them for their feelings towaeds Russia."

Yes and no. Yes, I sympathize with Christian Slavic Serbia with whom we fought against the Ottomans and the Nazis (I have such sympathy towards all Slavs, apart from Muslim Bosniaks). My negative feelings towards Serbia have nothing to do with Russia (I have nothing against Russia, apart from imperialist/chauvinist Russian nationalists who have more of a problem with us Poles than we do with them), it has more to do with the fact that Serbia has been a country that has suffered much, has bled much, like Poland has, and when I hear about such behavior such as Vukovar, Sarajevo, Dubrovnik and Srebrenica, it makes me sad that they can behave like their oppressors. Unfortunately, Russia can be the same: it also has been through hell in the past, but it has inflicted hell too.

Michael John

pre 17 godina

Rote Kappele,

In your post #9 you accuse the US of involving Russia with a war with Georgia. Care to
substantiate this!

"So wait a bit more and you will see quite another Russia. Bad news is that the US involves us in the war in Georgia. They want Georgia to be defeated by Russia but Russia want Georgia be defeated (as usual) by Ossetians. What surprises me here is that the Serbs cannot see that the war in South Ossetia is a war for Serbia ! Uncle Sam wishes to tie our hands there or ещ exchange Georgia for Iran ... I am afraid they will succeed in involving ."

Please realize that baseless statements such as these only serve to discredit you and embarrass most Slav people.

However,If it gives you pleasure to express your hate for America that is your prerogative, but you should remember that the USA is still feeding some of your people as well as funding B92, the site you are expressing yourself on.

PRN

pre 17 godina

Tadic & Co determined to take people of Serbia into EU, on one-by-one basis. Last week Karadzic got EU- member-for-life status, in a coming week or so Mladic, then Hodzic. It may go slow but this EU project is SURE to succeed.

just keep it up!

Ahmet Isufi

pre 17 godina

Mladic is staying in a military bunker near Macedonian border, along with at least 200 Serbian army soldiers. Also, he is in poor health and needs some serious medical treatment.

Rote Kapelle

pre 17 godina

Those people who seized the state power in Belgrad if necessary are ready to take off their trunks and sing God Bless America day and night ... I wonder how far are they ready to go to provide the background for their inevitable political exile ? Hopefully many of those prosecuted in Haague will once have their monuments in a Heroes Avenue somewhere in Belgrad. Hopefully some day Serbs will stop self torturing to amuse their enemies and obtain the dignity and national pride of their ancestors.

Nothing is lost yet ! The Kosovo project have already failed ! The US is entering a severe crisis ! Russia is regaining it's natural power ! All the Serbs need now is to stand and wait for a while ! That's why the comprador Serbs are in such a hurry. They know how short of time they really are ...

Живео Србиjя !

bganon

pre 17 godina

Rote Kapelle, I may have serious doubts about the Hague tribunal but personally I also wonder.

I wonder how much pride there is in housing those accused of the massacre of civilians. I wonder how dignified a person can be to let these same people walk the streets as their children do.

The point that those with a view like yours keep getting wrong, again and again, in that you NEVER say that these people should be tried at all (by Serbian or other courts).

The question posed therefore is do you think that mass murder and / or murder of civilians should go unpunished? If not what do you propose? And why do you not say state this clearly?

Petrer Sudyka

pre 17 godina

Rote Kapella

Why do you politicize and nationalize the issue when it has to do with a man who ordered the death of thousands of civilians?

The fact that he did it to protect Serbian interests is commendable, but what he did and how he did it is simply wrong, there is no excuse for the murder of civilians.

Rote Kapelle

pre 17 godina

bganon

" ... do you think that mass murder and / or murder of civilians should go unpunished? If not what do you propose? And why do you not say state this clearly ? "

As clear as I can :

1. I damn every single murderer whoever he is to say nothing of mass the massacres.

2. I am sure that all killers must be punished even if they only gave orders but not pulled the triggers.

3. But because in Haague being a Serb is already a crime and because the Tribunal has been established not to follow the criminals but to defend NATO as the the main criminal , the real sponsor and an active part in all wars on Balkans the Tribunal must be closed as soon as possible.

4. They don't prosecute crimes but they only punish Serbs ! So if we set free all Snakes , Haradiais , Izetbegoviches , Orices and almost all the Croats then there must be an amnesty for the Serbs too.

5. Serbs are choosen as the victims because in general they don't accept the dictate of the West and because they are the only nation in Europe that did not betray Russia . So best thing Russia can do is to defend Serbs as if they were 100% Russians.

6. Serbs were the only nation of Yugoslavia which during the conflicts discussed in general acted within the existing Yugoslavian and International legislation. All the rest including NATO have been violating both of them.

Ataman

pre 17 godina

Живео Србиjя !
(Rote Kapelle, 7 August 2008 11:12)

This where I certainly agree with you, RK. But I would like to see everyone from all sides of conflict, including NATO, who has blood on their hands (or money in their pockets) and being involved in destruction of СФРJ having 10 to 25 years without parole.

My joy of Russian-Serbian alliance is somewhat hold back seeing how some Russian government bureaucrats "take care" about own citizens. Like fares being inflated during Yakunin's reign to a degree unheard of. 30000 Rbl for a Moscow-Vladik? Is Yakunin crazy? Or how overseas Russians are treated by consulates. Every time you enter these buildings your back gets a feeling difficult to describe. Look at how many elderly people who worked and fought for their Fatherland are being treated now. Many commies are so happy now - they can steal without all the marxist-leninist "baggage" of the past to take care of.

Once the government looks like being interested to take care about OWN citizens, we can see, how they are interested to take care about their closest allies. I am in the "somewhat optimistic" mood now, it seems, Medvedyev has some positive attitude but old habits die hard.

Ataman

pre 17 godina

The fact that he did it to protect Serbian interests is commendable, but what he did and how he did it is simply wrong, there is no excuse for the murder of civilians.
(Petrer Sudyka, 7 August 2008 14:43)


The question posed therefore is do you think that mass murder and / or murder of civilians should go unpunished? If not what do you propose? And why do you not say state this clearly?
(bganon, 7 August 2008 13:53)

Agree with both of you.

He essentially did protect СФРJ from an aggressor, but it is merely a fact to milden the verdict. He is seriously accused to steal serious amount of money and seriously accused to be at least indirectly involved in death of SOME civilians (let's be gentle towards Serbia and say, we do not know precisely, how many yet, but SOME likely).

Both are very serious accusations and under normal circumstances he should stay trial in Бања Лука and if both accusations are true, than a double-digit sentence is likely. Even if he did protect СФРJ from an aggressor.

Unfortunately Hague discredited itself to such degree, that ANY sentence he would receive will make him hero.

I would also be very careful for warm and fuzzy Serbo-Russian feelings. They are great on the level of private people. I don't trust any "friendship" between countries (it's a complete BS) and there is no need to fuel feelings of some desperate Serbs. It's bad enough Americans do the same with Albanians.

Rote Kapella

pre 17 godina

Ataman

As you know it took 6 years that the USSR has totally recovered from Hitler and it's been 17 years that we cannot recover from the Democrats which once commanded in Kremlin. We used to have a Boris of our own ...

Everything you say is so but the changes here are drastic so very soon you will be more proud of the Russian part of your blood. If you forget for a while any ideology you will find that Putin like Stalin in 1922 has got a ruined and demoralized country. And though I approve only 70% of what he is doing I know it for certain that this is a name to be remembered for centuries. I also believe that he is the gretest man of today's world. But please mention I never voted for him for I believe he is not enough radical ...

So wait a bit more and you will see quite another Russia. Bad news is that the US involves us in the war in Georgia. They want Georgia to be defeated by Russia but Russia want Georgia be defeated (as usual) by Ossetians. What surprises me here is that the Serbs cannot see that the war in South Ossetia is a war for Serbia ! Uncle Sam wishes to tie our hands there or ещ exchange Georgia for Iran ... I am afraid they will succeed in involving .

Будь здоров !

Rote Kapelle

pre 17 godina

" ... a man who ordered the death of thousands of civilians..."

This man's name is Billy Clinton ! He has encoraged the Croats , the Bosniaks and the Albanians. He is to be taken to the Court. All the rest even if they too committed crimes are to be punished next. Furst we must prosecute Helmut Kohl and then Slobo , Tony Blaire and then Izetbegovich ect. The guilt of the Serbs was nothing more than the constitutional defend of the state. So they are the last to be prosecuted. Croats and Bosniaks and Albanians should go to Haague next after the western leaders. Only then you may talk of Serbian crimes.

I have no true information of how many civillians were killed by the Serbian militaries and how many by the others. But I have true information that only Serbs are prosecuted. 20% of sentenced Croats and total 11 % of Albanians and Bosniaks is just a show directed from Washington.

Otherwise they cannot close the bloody page of NATO crimes. But NATO fought on every side which opposed Serbs. I do not doubt that if today the Serbs fight Robert Mugabe or Ahmadinejad NATO will support Serbia's enemies.

Peter I can see your mixed feelings toward Serbs. On one hand as a Slaw and a Christian you admitt (silently) that the West is too cruel and unjust to them. On the other hand as a Pole and a wetern minded you hate them for their feelings towaeds Russia. You can do nothing about that because even Tadic upto now has failed to bring a split between the two nations. We are on our way for gaining strength and unity. Be as realistic as you new PM to replace one of the Xeroxes.

Thoughtful

pre 17 godina

Bragon,
I would like to ask you if you have in mind wars that civilians were not murdered. Just to remind you: in the second world war 2 atomic bombs were dropped against civilians. German cities like Dresden were heavily bombed in order to break the moral of the rivals. In Iraq, many dozens of thousands of civilians have died as a result of the invasion. Do you think war is like a football game and the ones who violate the rules commit “war crimes” and a sentence should be imposed on them? According to your thought all the political leaders whose countries were involved in wars could be characterized easily as “war criminals”. The political leaders, like Milosevic, Tudzman, Karazic etc. have responsibilities in the sense that their policies led to the wars. But a court can not by definition try political responsibilities. [In my view that is an important reason the tribunal failed to establish the guiltiness of Milosevic and since they could not find him “not guilty”, eventually it was decided to murder him directly or indirectly].
The death of civilians by violence or starvation (sanctions is also a weapon) Only violations of penal code. A political leader like the above can not be considered guilty for war crimes unless he ordered like Hitler the genocide of Jews or like the Turk leaders the extermination of Armenians during the first world war.
So, the correct question is not whether civilians were massacred (a n honest answer is that all sides did it in the Yugoslav civil wars, although not at the same extent), but what was the character of the wars? The wars in Bosnia, Croatia was an effort by Serbia to conquer and form the Greater Serbia as the mainstream western media (and many Serbs) claim, an offensive war by Serbia against Bosnia using as proxy the leadership of Bosnian Serbs? I think that since Croats and later on Muslims decided to leave Yugoslavia exercising the right to self determination (although the unilateral secessions were illegal according to 1974 federal constitution), the Serbs in these 2 republics had the same right to self determination.
Now, if you think who finances the Hague tribunal (the countries that attacked Yugoslavia) and what purposes it serves (it is not coincidence that the verdict against Milosevic was issued in May 1999 during the NATO offensive against Yugoslavia) you will understand that only naïve people think that the court can be unbiased. Is it accidental that although depleted uranium was dropped at the territory of Yugoslavia, the court failed even to address it? Was the bombardment of TV Serbia a war crime or not? The air strikes against civilians? The attacks against Serb civilians by the forces of Odric prior to Srebrenica massacre? The killings of Serb civilians (and probably the sale of their organs) by the KLA? The aim of the court is to punish the ones who violated the rules of war, but the ones who dared to confront USA imperialism. At the face of Milosevic, Karazic the Serbian resistance is accused. Since ancient years, there is no mercy for the defeated. Of course, only a nation with total lack of dignity, with begger mentality can deliver its leaders in order to satisfy the demands of the Great European powers and USA.
If I understand correctly, the Serbs are ready to do almost everything, to kneel, in order to get EU membership. It is their choice, but they are not going to get any respect.
Last, but not least, I would like to stress, in order to avoid misunderstandings I would like to stress that the policies of Milosevic were disastrous (but at least he had unlike his successors, some dignity) and Karazic was/is an extreme nationalist. But the court is not the appropriate place to deal with that….

Peter Sudyka

pre 17 godina

Ataman

"Unfortunately Hague discredited itself to such degree, that ANY sentence he would receive will make him hero. "

Here I agree, I do not believe the Hague was entirely fair, especially with regards to the Bosnian War and those responsible for the deaths. It truly was a three way war, just just one country's fault.

Rote Kapella

"This man's name is Billy Clinton !"

I agree, especially with how he handled the Kosovo War outside of the UN. Unfortunately, the ICJ is a pro-Western court, but that still does not excuse Mladic.

"But I have true information that only Serbs are prosecuted."

There were some Bosniaks, Croats and Albanians that were prosecuted, though indeed surprizingly few when one looks at Operation Storm or the post 1999 Kosovo violence.

"On one hand as a Slaw and a Christian you admitt (silently) that the West is too cruel and unjust to them. On the other hand as a Pole and a wetern minded you hate them for their feelings towaeds Russia."

Yes and no. Yes, I sympathize with Christian Slavic Serbia with whom we fought against the Ottomans and the Nazis (I have such sympathy towards all Slavs, apart from Muslim Bosniaks). My negative feelings towards Serbia have nothing to do with Russia (I have nothing against Russia, apart from imperialist/chauvinist Russian nationalists who have more of a problem with us Poles than we do with them), it has more to do with the fact that Serbia has been a country that has suffered much, has bled much, like Poland has, and when I hear about such behavior such as Vukovar, Sarajevo, Dubrovnik and Srebrenica, it makes me sad that they can behave like their oppressors. Unfortunately, Russia can be the same: it also has been through hell in the past, but it has inflicted hell too.

Michael John

pre 17 godina

Rote Kappele,

In your post #9 you accuse the US of involving Russia with a war with Georgia. Care to
substantiate this!

"So wait a bit more and you will see quite another Russia. Bad news is that the US involves us in the war in Georgia. They want Georgia to be defeated by Russia but Russia want Georgia be defeated (as usual) by Ossetians. What surprises me here is that the Serbs cannot see that the war in South Ossetia is a war for Serbia ! Uncle Sam wishes to tie our hands there or ещ exchange Georgia for Iran ... I am afraid they will succeed in involving ."

Please realize that baseless statements such as these only serve to discredit you and embarrass most Slav people.

However,If it gives you pleasure to express your hate for America that is your prerogative, but you should remember that the USA is still feeding some of your people as well as funding B92, the site you are expressing yourself on.