Furor over defaced Greek flag in Macedonia

What is wrong with being called the 'Republic of Skopje'?
If as some claim, 'it's just a name', and it's not important, then change the name!
Alexander the Great was a Macedonian, and the Macedonians were Hellenic, not Slavic. The Slavs moved into the region much later. That is a fact.
So please, Skopjans, grow up and realize that the name that Tito gave you, 'Macedonia', does not reflect who you are or where you come from. Tito just did it, like he did everything else, to reduce the influence of Serbia - same reason he made the muslims in Bosnia a supposed 'nation', and he made Kosovo and Vojvodina autonomous, while not giving Krajina autonomy....the list goes on.
I am with my Greek allies on this dispute. I know they won't recognize this fake, illegal, and immoral state of Kosovo. The Skopjans I have absolutely no faith in.

I was a supporter of a quick agreement between the two countries on the name issue, even kind of blaming Greece for not being more flexible, but these late actions in Skopje are plain stupid. They are sinking their own boat.

This just shows how mature the Skopianoi are. How can you put up a Greek flag, with a nazi sign instead of the cross when the Greeks have been fighting against fascism from it's beginnings. Besides, if Greece allows for the name to stand, then in 10,15,20 years, the so called "Macedonians" might ask for the Greek province of Macedonia. We all know that M.Alexandros was Greek, even the name says it.
"Alex" means "against" in Greek, while "andras" means man. So when translated into Greek, it means against men, or the enemy of men. I don't think you can argue against that. Or does it translate into anything in "Macedonian".

This incident is the result of gutter politics orchestrated by Gruevski et all.The stoning of the Greek office and the threats to its staff by thugs last month shows that all these incidents are connected
and their sole purpose is to
intimidate Greece to accept their ludicrous demands.In the face of this adversity the Greek goverment must think seriously and prepare counter-measures which will include the repatriation of all Greek business operating in Skopje, the expulsion of all seasonal Fyromian workers
in Greece and even close the
border.These are defensive measures against the hostility of this nation.

Now, why don't people ask themselves why Macedonians equate greeks with Nazis??? Hint, it's not what you say, it's WHAT YOU DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, lets see now.

You people should also know that there isnt only "one louzy poster" or just "the expression of an artist", but its also drawings in political magazines in FYROM that present Greek PM as a nazi officer (uniform et al). It also isnt the right of one's expression, but its also the timing.
On one hand I really thank those idiots for showing the rest of the world what some people feel of their neighbours. It only justifies our words, that in order to be an ally, you first have to be a good neighbour and those actions dont show that and directly lead Greece to definate veto.

As for Dimitar's so called study, I answered it before, I will answer it again. The university you are reffering to, made a paid ordered research with 3 FYROMian proffesors in the team. Have you read the study or just the synopsis? Do you know the samples? Do you know its credibility? Just because some people of your country made a research for your country doesnt add any kind of credibility in that research, sorry.

DimTuc
mistaken example the Mexico one. Different conditions, different results, different outcome, different allies ;)

Anonymous,
Of course we will call you FYROMians, since that is your UN name and that is your official international name. If you ever change it to something else and we agree on it, we will call you by that. That is not fascism, that is respect of international treaties, whereas fascism is to call the others nazis, when the whole world knows that the FYROMians worked together and welcomed nazis without even firing a shot and Greeks were the ones that first of all european countries have managed the first victory of allies against axis forces. (sorry luigi, but this was you :) )

Dimitar - again...
Exaclty, its not what you say, its what you do. And by doing this ridiculus thing you prove who is what.

dan asta,
the fyromian language is basically an admix of bulgarian, slavic and western elements that was created at around 1951 by a guy named Koneski after the orders of Tito. A people that have slavic-bulgarian language, can only be 2 things: 1. either slavic-bulgarian, or 2. slavophone (put ethnicity here).
The arrival of slavic tribes during the 7th century ad, is known, proved, accepted and there is no discussion on that issue. The current residents of FYROM are a part of those people that remained and also expanded in other parts of Greece. It is the words of FYROMian ex-PMs, Presidents etc that admit this, see Gligorov etc.
That is also what we say, that ancient Makedonians have nothing in common with today's fyromians and they can only use the word Makedonia to describe the territory they reside and not their ethnicity, since there isnt any such thing.

Aleksandar,
Of course if someone said such a thing is an idiot, no matter who he is. Can you say the same thing about your people now?

Dimitar - and again....
No we dont want to monopolise Balkan history. Every peoples in the balkans have their own history, traditions, culture etc. We just want to protect ours from being stolen. You have your own, and thats not Makedonian.

Johny
By calling themselves Makedonians in the first place, is a spit on our identity. A Greek flag with a swastika on it is a backwards nationalistic rhetoric. The rest is rubbish.

KS,
you mean to albanian immigrants. Is it time now to present us an albanian ethnic minority in Greece? That would be a laugh. There is almost 800k albanian immigrants in here, most of them illegaly, that isnt an ethnic minority though, sorry. As for the police, you should know that whoever is caught to violate rights of arrested and/or convicted criminals, local or foreingers, is facing justice. We are not albania here :)

For all of you:
I am happy for those people's stupidity, to raise a poster with a nazi symbol on my flag and to publish a drawing of my PM with a nazi uniform and call him a nazi ally and instrument. It only shows agony, complex, fear, but most of all shows racism and fascism.
I am happy that you gave my country and nation more arguments to my just cause. I am happy that you show to the world who is violating which treaties.
I really thank you.

"Skopje insists that the country is called Macedonia, while Athens claims that much of the geographical territory known as Macedonia lies in - Greece"

So therefore Mexico shouldn't call itself Mexico because part of historic and geographic Mexico is in the US. And the United States of America should not use that name because it could imply territorial ambitions on the whole of north and south geographical America. The Greek government position is positively bizarre. Does anyne actually take it seriously? In reality, this has nothing to do with alleged Macedonian claims on the Greek part of geographic Macedonia, which is overwhelmingly Greek ethnically, but is due to Greece's own refusal to recognise the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greek Macedonia, which suffers oppression and complete denial of minority rights.

And just to prempt the avalanche of know-all Greek nationalist posters telling me "I don't know what I'm talking about" etc, ah, sorry, but I do.

The Nazi Greek flag put up by an artist/gallery owner does not say much for Macedonian taste in art, if that image is indeed part of the exhibition. It's also a massive case of projection since this fellow, having been displaced from Greek Macedonia as he claims, lived in the period when Slavophone citizens allied with the Nazis and occupied Greek Macedonia, leading to the deaths of millions and the forced deportation of tens of thousands of Jews to concentration camps. So of course he would consider Greeks to be Nazis, given the history. As Freud said, one projects their sins onto others.

Lastly, DimTuc is incorrect when he says that Greece objects to the name Macedonia in the title of the Republic of Macedonia. It doesn't. It requests that a modifier or descriptor be added to the title such as North or New. So the analogy about Mexico doesn't work since Greece would be perfectly fine with such an adjective as New Mexico.

The reason Greece is in this position is because the term Macedonian is also used by Greek speakers to describe their cultural heritage (and I'm not going back to Alexander the Great). If you look at Salonika and the surrounding areas, there's been a history of cultural organizations that go by the name of Macedonia for the last hundred years, and these organizations have little to do with the nationality of Slavophone Macedonians. Greece objects to the univocal ownership of this term.

Brazilians or Cubans don't call themselves Americans even though they come from the region of the Americas. If they did, you can bet Americans would ask them to at least make a distinction. I can't tell you how many times that I have heard objections from South Americans when I referred to myself as an American.

Basically, what's happened is that Slavophone citizens of the old Ottoman Empire have taken the name of the wider region for their nationality. However, these citizens were not even the majority of a region which was evenly divided among Jews, Turks, Greeks and Bulgarians and/or Macedonians. They can't own the term, since the term belongs to more than their national cohort.

As for the oppressed Macedonian minority in Greece, it's miniscule, first of all. 10,000 people tops even according to the Human Rights Watch census takers. They claim oppression because Greece will not recognize it as a minority, pointing out the extreme absurdity of Greece recognizing a minority that goes by the name of one of its own regions. How can Greece recognize Macedonians as a national minority when for a Greek that term can refer to ALL citizens (the majority) in Greek Macedonia?

Absurd. Bizarre.

Someone has confused their Nazis.

One thing everybody needs to know.

The billboard that was published with the mentioned flag was an advertisement for an art gallery which will be held in Macedonia and was done by a private investor.

The gallery, ironically, will consist of pictures of the people in the northern part of Greece from the period after the annexation (around 1913).

He, as a minority there, was feeling oppressed and is thus now expressing his feelings through this art exhibition.

It is his right to do so, because any democracy allows him to do so. Freedom of Speech.

Sure, it might be at the wrong time and might be insulting to Greece, but so is the way Greeks refer to us constantly (FYROMIAN, SKOPJAN (which is how their minister referred to us in her last letter to the government) and deny our right to exist as a people, which in other words IS FASCIST!!!

Greece did not bother to condemn the statements promoting war by the Greek clergy re: Bitola being Greek territory and should be taken back! But they feel it's right and proper to act indignantly when their "sensitivities" are offended!

I seem to recall "Death to Skopiani" graffiti in Greece, and now when some artist makes a statement, they see a little bit of political mileage and once
again play the victim! Poor Greeks, they are so misunderstood.

Well I have to say that this nazi-flag is rather unorthodox, but it's perfectly fair. May the Greeks have a little taste of what it's like to have their national identity spit on. In Europe, we're supposed to be done with backwards nationalistic rhetoric since World War II. Time for Greece to grow up or leave the EU, if they are still gripping on that rhetoric.

RE: Macedonian Extremists

The political government of FYROM were well aware of the discriminatory nazi depiction of the cross and failed to bring the billboards down.

That sends the wrong message to the Greeks and Southeastern Europe.

Further, to their disgrace, the cross on the Greek flag is the symbol of the Byzantium Empire which was adopted also by the Serbian Nation (Four C's surrounded by the cross) The cross is the symbol of Byzantium and FYROM rejects its Christian roots with its actions. That is why Constantinople will never accept the so called autocephalus Church of FYROM .

Further, Montenegro is now in the process of seizing the Serbian Orthodox Church property against all internatoinal norms. Again, Constantinople will not accept the so called Montenegrin Autocephalus Church.

Finally, to Albania's and Kosovo Albania's credit, Serbian and Greek church property have not been seized, unlike actions provocated by some slavs in Montenegro and FYROM.

FYROM continue to steal Greek Macedonian history and mocks Byzantium history by its actions. Cyril and Methodosiua carried the Byzantine cross and the Cyrillic language to Southeastern Europe.

How hypocritical of FYROM leaders claiming to be the ancestory of Byzantium and Greek Macedonia while mocking the Cross.

Johnny, shouldn't you be IN the EU first before advising who should be a member of the group?

And maybe you think it's funny that the victims of the Nazis are accused by the allies of the Nazis of being Nazis, but really it's just massive projections coming from the guilty ones.

Greek minister hasn't heard of freedom of expression. He also hasn't heard of freedom of human rights considering to what Greek police do to Albanian minorities...that's another story.

In reality, this has nothing to do with alleged Macedonian claims on the Greek part of geographic Macedonia, which is overwhelmingly Greek ethnically, but is due to Greece's own refusal to recognise the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greek Macedonia, which suffers oppression and complete denial of minority rights.

And just to prempt the avalanche of know-all Greek nationalist posters telling me "I don't know what I'm talking about" etc, ah, sorry, but I do.
(DimTuc, 31 March 2008 13:22)
Can you name some actual events and chronology that took place? When was the last time that you read about your so called ethnic macedonians demonstrating about their human rights?
The fact of the matter is that your politicians are trying to build up forged case with minorities as they have done with history,language and identity
in order to hide their human
rights abuses against turkish
albanian,bulgarian and roma minorities.I will remind you that nearly half of your population are minorities.

By Nikitas: "Of course we will call you FYROMians, since that is your UN name and that is your official international name. If you ever change it to something else and we agree on it, we will call you by that. That is not fascism, that is respect of international treaties, whereas fascism is to call the others nazis, when the whole world knows that the FYROMians worked together and welcomed nazis without even firing a shot and Greeks were the ones that first of all european countries have managed the first victory of allies against axis forces. (sorry luigi, but this was you :) )"

You want to talk about respect of international treaties? Ok, then maybe you should know a few things.
FYROM is not international NAME for Macedonia. FYROM is nonexistent. The REFERENCE used within UN is "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and it is for use ONLY in the UN. No abbreviation. Since you want to respect international treaties I suggest you do so objectively and not subjectively. Referring to the people of Macedonia as FYROMians is obviously an attempt to insult as well as not incorporate the name Macedonia when referring to us or our country.

Seriously, WE welcomed the Nazis? You sure about that? Not the Bulgarians? Or do you say that because you in fact consider us Bulgarian? We were fighting along Greeks against the Nazis and you don't even want to acknowledge that because that would be acknowledging that we were there, present and fighting and you cannot accept that.

You know, slowly your arguments are getting thiner and thiner, until one day you won't have anything to stand on. Oh how I wait for that day.

Something else you should know. The veto threat back fired for you. Thanks to you, we are able to get our voice heard and thanks to you (because you pressed us too hard) the Macedonian consciousness among the people is at about its highest.

No one insists on the name Macedonia. There is a Republic of Macedonia like there is Republic of Ireland. Macedonia and Ireland are a wider regions. Well if you behave like a Nazi then you are a nazi.

Does anyone else find this whole name dispute stupid?

Macedonians are going overboard with these accusations of Nazism, but at the same time the Greeks are indeed not making matters easier. Macedonians are commonly referred to the Slavic invaders of the Balkans who mixed with the local Illyrian, Thracian, Greek and Roman populations and speak a language similar to that of Bulgaria, why should they not have the right to a country named after them? The ancient Macedonians were assimilated into Greece a long time ago, shouldn't they feel they are a part of Greece rather than to a land belonging to a totally separate and unrelated tribe?

It would be the same thing if the Celtic nations would take offense to France being named after a Germanic tribe rather than Gaul, or if the Baltic Prussians (if they were still around today) were to take offense to Germans calling their country Prussia. It's just a name people, get over it already, things like this only make people think worse of the Balkans (and the opinion is generally quite negative throughout Europe).

Peter, you are so right, this thing is entirely ridiculous, but please understand that Greece is the instigator of this whole problem! It's like someone trying to rub your very existence from the face of the earth, and this in fact is exactly what greece is doing in a very insidious and nasty way!

Greece claims we are "Slavs" while the ancient Macedonians were not! First; unproven. This myth is slowly being demolished. Look at these excerpts from an Oxford genetic study report on Slavic speaking peoples, this link from a Macedonian forum;(
www.maknews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7918 )will give you the direct link...

Excerpt; "Contemporary Slavic paternal gene pool is characterized by the predominance of R1a and I1b (xM26) variants as well as the scarcity of E3b1 lineages ..."

Acc. to Oxford, R1a-M17 is found highest among Polish, 56.4%, Ukraine, 54%, Macedonian is at 15.2% !
What other countries have amounts of R1a, many non Slavic countries, surprisingly, including Iceland 23.8%, Norwegian, 17.3%, Hungary, 20.4% - all more than Macedonians!

OK who else has similar amounts to Macedonians? Serbia, 15.9%, Albania 9.8%, Greece,8.3%, GREEK MACEDONIA,35.0%. Thus "Greek Macedonians" have the highest R1a frequency in all of the Southern Balkans. Quite ironic, since it's "Greek Macedonians" that accuse us of being Slavs while they are pure "Hellenes", when in fact, it's quite the opposite!

Further data explains that the E3B1 line of descent is most heavily represented in Mediterranean populations. But guess what, Macedonians have the highest amount
of E3B1 at 24.1% in all of Europe!

So how can Macedonians, supposedly "Slavs" have the highest Mediterranean frequencies in Europe? This, the University of Madrid studies also indicated; ie, the Macedonians are the most Mediterranean of all European people in the E3b1 frequency! I posted the Un. of Madrid results earlier here but they were roundly criticized by the "Greek Makedonians" because "Macedonians were involved"!!?

My point is Greeks have no arguments whatsoever over Macedonians, they themselves are as "Slavic" as us! Delicious irony! The Greek drive against us is a propaganda push because they themselves have committed crimes against ethnic Macedonians in forcibly taking over our land after the Balkan wars. They also would like to "own" all of the Balkan heritage for themselves at the expense of Macedonians, saying we want to monopolize the name when in fact they do! Greece is like a guilty person, who finds themselves in a position of power, and therefore feels no need to accept any responsibility for it's actions!

Peter,

I think arguing over Alexander is silly since millenia have passed, and so have bloodlines. No one is an ancestor anymore.

That being said, you wrote: "Macedonians are commonly considered Slavic invaders..."

Can you show us a link to this apocryphal source of history which only you seem to be aware of?

It would be quite an amazing feat considering that the ancient Macedonians were in the region a millenium before the Slavic tribes arrived. Are you saying they had access to a time machine?

It looks very much like the Macedonia Republic don't agree they feel very strongly Greece has not been a good neighbor. That Greece is a bully and has yousd coercion these last 17 years on them. Also over 120 country's don't support Greece or its stand but they support the Macedonia Republic and yous that name for it. Maybe it is good for politics in Greece and for the Greek parties to get a few votes to keep the one sided dispute going but as good neighbor Greece I don't think so.

Peter, you are so right, this thing is entirely ridiculous, but please understand that Greece is the instigator of this whole problem! It's like someone trying to rub your very existence from the face of the earth, and this in fact is exactly what greece is doing in a very insidious and nasty way!

Greece claims we are "Slavs" while the ancient Macedonians were not! First; unproven. This myth is slowly being demolished. Look at these excerpts from an Oxford genetic study report on Slavic speaking peoples, this link from a Macedonian forum;(
www.maknews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7918 )will give you the direct link...

Excerpt; "Contemporary Slavic paternal gene pool is characterized by the predominance of R1a and I1b (xM26) variants as well as the scarcity of E3b1 lineages ..."

Acc. to Oxford, R1a-M17 is found highest among Polish, 56.4%, Ukraine, 54%, Macedonian is at 15.2% !
What other countries have amounts of R1a? Many non Slavic countries, surprisingly, including Iceland 23.8%, Norwegian, 17.3%, Hungary, 20.4% - all more than Macedonians!

OK who else has similar amounts to Macedonians? Serbia, 15.9%, Albania 9.8%, Greece,8.3%, GREEK MACEDONIA,35.0%. Thus "Greek Macedonians" have the highest R1a frequency in all of the Southern Balkans! Quite ironic, since it's "Greek Macedonians" that accuse us of being Slavs while they are pure "Hellenes", when in fact, it's quite the opposite!

Further data explains that the E3B1 line of descent is most heavily represented in Mediterranean populations. But guess what, Macedonians have the highest amount
of E3B1 at 24.1% in all of Europe!

So how can Macedonians, supposedly "Slavs" have the highest Mediterranean frequencies in Europe? This, the earlier University of Madrid studies also indicated; ie, the Macedonians are the most Mediterranean of all European people in the E3b1 frequency! I posted the Un. of Madrid results earlier here but they were roundly criticized by the "Greek Makedonians" because "Macedonians were involved"!!?

My point is Greeks have no arguments whatsoever over Macedonians, they themselves are as "Slavic" as us! Delicious irony! The Greek drive against us is a propaganda push because they themselves have committed seriouscrimes against ethnic Macedonians in forcibly taking over our land after the Balkan wars. For egoistic purposes, they also would like to "own" all of the Balkan heritage for themselves at the expense of Macedonians, saying we want to monopolize the name when in fact they do! Greece is like a guilty person, who finds themselves in a position of power, and therefore feels no need to accept any responsibility for it's actions!

All of this because of the name of a country?

Dan Asta, I AM in the EU for a long time, I'm a Portuguese citizen. Or do you think that only Macedonians and Greeks patrol this topic? And anyway, I wonder what would to be or not to be IN the EU have anything to do with expressing opposition to the shameless Greek attitude that cause this nazi-flag response.

Hey people relax!
-Slavomakedonians are not the poor little savages that the mighty Greece should kick out/repatriate/ and the rest of fanfare i keep listening here.
- Have you thought that Greek companies established there, may have done so, because they have found there better human "material" than Greece?
- Should we repatriate also the Slavomakedonian tourists who give life to certain tourist places (Halkidiki),
and leave us their money?
- We are a small, yet i wanna believe civilized nation in the balakns, Slavomakedonians are a civilized small nation who belongs to the greater slavic family of yugoslavia,bulgaria.
- Check some "vlatko stefanovski" on you tube.
He has a song about sarajevo. How could i feel hatred for musicians like these?
- We are "played" like marionettes by US/NATO/EU.

Let me give you an example, which i will call "The Makedonian problem for amateurs/ children"

Lets suppose, we have two people, named "Giorgos". If these two people have their shops next to each other, there there will be a dispute over the distinction of the 1st Giorgos's shop over the 2nd.
But if those two ppl start to be friends, then it is natural that a differentiation in maes will come sooner or later.
So 1st Giorgos could be named Giorgos "left", and the 2nd Djordje "right", or George the Greek and George the slav.

P.S.
I dont agree that we (greeks) and you (slavomakedonians) have the same blood. The differences in mannerisms, language, etc... are vast.
However thats a good thing to have this rich variety in todays world where everything tends to be homogenized by the US/NATO/EU, and make us have only one god: money.

Dimitar

100% correct, the R1a gene is commonly referred to as the Indo-European gene originating from the Black Sea, most commonly found in Slavic states (Poland, Ukraine and Russia having the highest frequency), as well as states within the Slavic sphere of influence (this includes Hungary). Even Albanians, Serbs and Croats show high amounts of the Haplotype I, showing that indeed the Macedonians, Bulgarians and Greeks are the purest examples of Mediterranean peoples in Europe. What the Greeks don't understand, is that over the years there have been so many foreign invasions in the Eastern Balkans (Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Slavic, Ottoman etc.) that language can no longer be the sole factor in determining ethnicity, so just because the Greeks speak a Hellenic language and Macedonians a Slavic one, does that make Greeks 100% pure Greek, as in Ancient Greece and Macedonians Slavs? No! Macedonians are Slavic linguistically, Mediterranean genetically, same way Greeks are Hellenic linguistically, Mediterranean genetically.

To conclude people: Macedonia is not a patented Greek region, it is a large area shared by Greece, Bulgaria and FYROM, the FYROM one is the only one that is independent, why should it not use the name Macedonia? Greeks were not the only people living there, there were also Thracians, Illyrians and later, Slavs. So if now the European part of Turkey broke away from the Asian part and called itself Thrace, would the Greeks take offense to that as well, considering Thrace is also shared by Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey and the people also unified with Greeks like the Macedonians did? It's really quite a silly argument.

dan asta

I think it's funny you say:

"It would be quite an amazing feat considering that the ancient Macedonians were in the region a millenium before the Slavic tribes arrived. Are you saying they had access to a time machine?"

After saying this:

"I think arguing over Alexander is silly since millenia have passed, and so have bloodlines. No one is an ancestor anymore. "

You contradict yourself, hehe. As for the quote, you took it out of context, since I said:

"Macedonians are commonly referred to the Slavic invaders of the Balkans who mixed with the local Illyrian, Thracian, Greek and Roman populations and speak a language similar to that of Bulgaria..."

And not just up until the Slavic invaders part.

As for proof of this, please see the following links:

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-4411/Macedonia

Or if you want anthropological/genetic proof, I recommend Carlton Coon's "Races of Europe" book.

KS

Albanians do not have minority status in Greece because they are there illegally. They are treated no different from illegal immigrants in other countries across Europe. If they don't like it there, what's stopping them from going back to Albania which all the Albanians here seem to praise so much as drowning in oil, natural gas and highways?

I would suggest our friends from Skopie to change the name of their country not because of Greece but because in Italian Macedonia is the fruit salad (very tasty with ciut ciut Moraskino ) FOR US IT'S ALREADY STRANGE THAT THERE IS A COUNTRY WITH THE NAME OF A bitter! Crne gore=Montenegro (the best sellers of the Italians amari )
Am i asking too much ?

Luigi? E tu sei un Italiano vero? Non e possibile, carino. Because if you were a real Italian you would certainly remember that Crna Gora gave your country the most beautiful, racy, noble women, wildly admired for her beauty, your Regina d'Italia. Jelena was her name, if I am not mistaken.

Anonymus
"Oh how I wait for that day."
Dont hold your breath though. You already turned blue :)

As for who was fighting who.
Since your own records show that you consist of albanians, bulgarians, roma etc. then I must inform you that all of the above were fighting in the lines of the nazis and the ones that fought against them (in our neighbouring lands) were primarly the serbs. unless you consider yourself serb, well then we have a deal :)

Besides with all those ethincities in your country, I cant find any other proper name to call you that would include all, but FYROMians.

As for the UN name, that is what you are participating with in EVERY international organisation, and thus, that is your international name in use. The billateral agreements between you and every other country in the world is of no importance until a formal name is agreed upon within all international organisations.
So.... sorry.

Im albanian as an albanian i support Macedonia over Greece. This is my personal opinion. At least in Macedonia people of different ethnicity live in more harmony with each other then any other balkan countries.

what a disgrace..i think FYROM does not deserve to be in NATO..im jewish...for a swastika to be displayed in that manner is disrespectful not only to greece but to the jewish community...i now see what greece is dealing with

Nikitas, don't worry my friend. We the Serbs know who are true friends are (Greece, Romania, Russia in particular) and this insult by FYROManians is their own disgrace that will be remembered forever after. The Serbs will always support their Greek brothers in protecting their history and national honor.

Interesting that this flag incident comes a couple of days before the NATO summit.To be honest I don`t really give a damn about this.But one thing is for sure and that is that this issue could have been solved long time ago.FYROM`s government were willing to agree to a composite name but not the Greek government in the beginning of the 90s.If I remember correctly the name would be Upper Macedonia or Slavic Macedonia or something like that.So I think we Greeks should also blame our own governments for not handling this issue well.On the other hand the Slavs in FYROM are victims of Titovs nationalistic propaganda.And to be honest it even goes back further than that.The Slavs In FYROM have nothing to do with Alexander The Great and the Greek Macedons.I think personally that the Slavs in FYROM are more related to the Bulgarians.For God sake it`s the same people.It`s not a coincidence that a lof Slavs in FYROM are asking for Bulgarian citizenship.

Anyway, I hope that the name issue can be solved and that a compromise could be reached between FYROM and Greece.

Peace from a Greek Pontian.

*28 Dimitar.
My FYROMian neighbour,
I am really curious on what do you think that study proves for you. All I have seen is that it reffers to the FYROMians as slavic people, which is absolutely true. Unless you are reffering to the Roma of your country, which of course cant be ay kind of Makedonian people, since they are Roma.
Could you please be so kind to enlighten me with your strong argument, based on the study and then lets see who hides his head in the sand and looks foolish?

*31 uli,
On the other hand, I am not surprised at all. And there are a lot fo historical proof for me not being surprised :)

*34 Peter
Of course there have been lots and lots of intermixtures of peoples in the balkans whch has certainly altered their origins. It is not us that deny the existence of assimilated ethinc groups in the balkans. What we say is that the groups of people residing here, have accepted more or less to blend in with the strongest of the inhabitands. In some cases the Greeks were stronger (population and culture - wise), in some other cases Serbians, or Bulgarians. But in any case those blended groups accepted the culture (language, tradition, even religion) of the strongest in the respective areas.
So the peoples of Greece and all their immigrants, through time have been accepted by the Greek population and were Hellenised on their own free will, whereas in other areas they were forced to do so. Now, go wherever you like in Greece and ask them how they feel, they will answer Greek and that alone is a proof of the ridiculus falsification of Greek ethinicity the FYROMians try to create.

Responce to DimTuc

The last time I checked there is no place in the US call Mexico stupid, the place is called NEW MEXICO

There is an excellent article of Dora Bakoyannis in International Herald Tribune http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/31/opinion/edbakoy.php.

It's a shame for Greece that doesn't take the same approach towrds Albanian/Serbian issue- the natives/new comers.

To my SLAVIC greek macedonian friend Nikitas; umm, this is a separate study by
OXFORD!!!!! Here is the direct link;http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/
cgi/reprint/msi185v1.pdf

Read, OXFORD JOURNALS!!!!

Burying your head in the sand only makes you look rather foolish!

To the Serb posters, have a look at the above link; it surveys many European nations, as well as Middle Eastern etc etc. I'm surprised that so many Serbs are so closed; I must say my view of them is changing! Guys, get with the 21st Century!!!!! Life is flux, change... those who are fixed go down with the undertow of TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting comment on post 16. I saw the same link as above, http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Science%20290.pdf

It is very interesting, Albanians, Macedonians, Greeks, Lebano and Southern Italians are so close on this genes. It is interesting and im suprised. Check the link.

@logic :
you are absolutely right about history and personally i think CG is one of the loveliest place on earth and Montenegrin people are ok but if you have been to italy and enter in a bar or gone to a Restaurant ..well Montenegro is a bitter..!!
Anyway i was joking a little bit about the dispute of the names and there was no intention to offend anybody..

First of all, Alexander the Great participated in the Olympic Games which were only for Greek.

Second of all Talmud, Bible (Daniel's prophecies)Herodotus, Hesiod's, all encyclopedias and ancient sources of the world, mention Macedonia as North Greece.

Third Philip means friend of Horses, and Alexander He who defeats strong men.

Fourth Macedonia means ''Highland in Greek'' and Makedonian ''tall man''. (Macedonian, Cretan, Thracian, Pelloponesian.)

Fifth, the land that fyrom has today and belonged to the ancient kingdom of Macedonia is no more than 10km, the rest has always been part of Bulgaria and Serbia.

Sixth: Fyromians were Nazi collaborators that worked with Nazis in order Hitler to provide them the lands of Northern Greece. Fyrom always had imperialistic targets against Greece, by using the name dispute.

It isn't only for a name...

This just shows how mature the Skopianoi are. How can you put up a Greek flag, with a nazi sign instead of the cross when the Greeks have been fighting against fascism from it's beginnings. Besides, if Greece allows for the name to stand, then in 10,15,20 years, the so called "Macedonians" might ask for the Greek province of Macedonia. We all know that M.Alexandros was Greek, even the name says it.
"Alex" means "against" in Greek, while "andras" means man. So when translated into Greek, it means against men, or the enemy of men. I don't think you can argue against that. Or does it translate into anything in "Macedonian".

What is wrong with being called the 'Republic of Skopje'?
If as some claim, 'it's just a name', and it's not important, then change the name!
Alexander the Great was a Macedonian, and the Macedonians were Hellenic, not Slavic. The Slavs moved into the region much later. That is a fact.
So please, Skopjans, grow up and realize that the name that Tito gave you, 'Macedonia', does not reflect who you are or where you come from. Tito just did it, like he did everything else, to reduce the influence of Serbia - same reason he made the muslims in Bosnia a supposed 'nation', and he made Kosovo and Vojvodina autonomous, while not giving Krajina autonomy....the list goes on.
I am with my Greek allies on this dispute. I know they won't recognize this fake, illegal, and immoral state of Kosovo. The Skopjans I have absolutely no faith in.

RE: Macedonian Extremists

The political government of FYROM were well aware of the discriminatory nazi depiction of the cross and failed to bring the billboards down.

That sends the wrong message to the Greeks and Southeastern Europe.

Further, to their disgrace, the cross on the Greek flag is the symbol of the Byzantium Empire which was adopted also by the Serbian Nation (Four C's surrounded by the cross) The cross is the symbol of Byzantium and FYROM rejects its Christian roots with its actions. That is why Constantinople will never accept the so called autocephalus Church of FYROM .

Further, Montenegro is now in the process of seizing the Serbian Orthodox Church property against all internatoinal norms. Again, Constantinople will not accept the so called Montenegrin Autocephalus Church.

Finally, to Albania's and Kosovo Albania's credit, Serbian and Greek church property have not been seized, unlike actions provocated by some slavs in Montenegro and FYROM.

FYROM continue to steal Greek Macedonian history and mocks Byzantium history by its actions. Cyril and Methodosiua carried the Byzantine cross and the Cyrillic language to Southeastern Europe.

How hypocritical of FYROM leaders claiming to be the ancestory of Byzantium and Greek Macedonia while mocking the Cross.

what a disgrace..i think FYROM does not deserve to be in NATO..im jewish...for a swastika to be displayed in that manner is disrespectful not only to greece but to the jewish community...i now see what greece is dealing with

"Skopje insists that the country is called Macedonia, while Athens claims that much of the geographical territory known as Macedonia lies in - Greece"

So therefore Mexico shouldn't call itself Mexico because part of historic and geographic Mexico is in the US. And the United States of America should not use that name because it could imply territorial ambitions on the whole of north and south geographical America. The Greek government position is positively bizarre. Does anyne actually take it seriously? In reality, this has nothing to do with alleged Macedonian claims on the Greek part of geographic Macedonia, which is overwhelmingly Greek ethnically, but is due to Greece's own refusal to recognise the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greek Macedonia, which suffers oppression and complete denial of minority rights.

And just to prempt the avalanche of know-all Greek nationalist posters telling me "I don't know what I'm talking about" etc, ah, sorry, but I do.

This incident is the result of gutter politics orchestrated by Gruevski et all.The stoning of the Greek office and the threats to its staff by thugs last month shows that all these incidents are connected
and their sole purpose is to
intimidate Greece to accept their ludicrous demands.In the face of this adversity the Greek goverment must think seriously and prepare counter-measures which will include the repatriation of all Greek business operating in Skopje, the expulsion of all seasonal Fyromian workers
in Greece and even close the
border.These are defensive measures against the hostility of this nation.

No one insists on the name Macedonia. There is a Republic of Macedonia like there is Republic of Ireland. Macedonia and Ireland are a wider regions. Well if you behave like a Nazi then you are a nazi.

Ok, lets see now.

You people should also know that there isnt only "one louzy poster" or just "the expression of an artist", but its also drawings in political magazines in FYROM that present Greek PM as a nazi officer (uniform et al). It also isnt the right of one's expression, but its also the timing.
On one hand I really thank those idiots for showing the rest of the world what some people feel of their neighbours. It only justifies our words, that in order to be an ally, you first have to be a good neighbour and those actions dont show that and directly lead Greece to definate veto.

As for Dimitar's so called study, I answered it before, I will answer it again. The university you are reffering to, made a paid ordered research with 3 FYROMian proffesors in the team. Have you read the study or just the synopsis? Do you know the samples? Do you know its credibility? Just because some people of your country made a research for your country doesnt add any kind of credibility in that research, sorry.

DimTuc
mistaken example the Mexico one. Different conditions, different results, different outcome, different allies ;)

Anonymous,
Of course we will call you FYROMians, since that is your UN name and that is your official international name. If you ever change it to something else and we agree on it, we will call you by that. That is not fascism, that is respect of international treaties, whereas fascism is to call the others nazis, when the whole world knows that the FYROMians worked together and welcomed nazis without even firing a shot and Greeks were the ones that first of all european countries have managed the first victory of allies against axis forces. (sorry luigi, but this was you :) )

Dimitar - again...
Exaclty, its not what you say, its what you do. And by doing this ridiculus thing you prove who is what.

dan asta,
the fyromian language is basically an admix of bulgarian, slavic and western elements that was created at around 1951 by a guy named Koneski after the orders of Tito. A people that have slavic-bulgarian language, can only be 2 things: 1. either slavic-bulgarian, or 2. slavophone (put ethnicity here).
The arrival of slavic tribes during the 7th century ad, is known, proved, accepted and there is no discussion on that issue. The current residents of FYROM are a part of those people that remained and also expanded in other parts of Greece. It is the words of FYROMian ex-PMs, Presidents etc that admit this, see Gligorov etc.
That is also what we say, that ancient Makedonians have nothing in common with today's fyromians and they can only use the word Makedonia to describe the territory they reside and not their ethnicity, since there isnt any such thing.

Aleksandar,
Of course if someone said such a thing is an idiot, no matter who he is. Can you say the same thing about your people now?

Dimitar - and again....
No we dont want to monopolise Balkan history. Every peoples in the balkans have their own history, traditions, culture etc. We just want to protect ours from being stolen. You have your own, and thats not Makedonian.

Johny
By calling themselves Makedonians in the first place, is a spit on our identity. A Greek flag with a swastika on it is a backwards nationalistic rhetoric. The rest is rubbish.

KS,
you mean to albanian immigrants. Is it time now to present us an albanian ethnic minority in Greece? That would be a laugh. There is almost 800k albanian immigrants in here, most of them illegaly, that isnt an ethnic minority though, sorry. As for the police, you should know that whoever is caught to violate rights of arrested and/or convicted criminals, local or foreingers, is facing justice. We are not albania here :)

For all of you:
I am happy for those people's stupidity, to raise a poster with a nazi symbol on my flag and to publish a drawing of my PM with a nazi uniform and call him a nazi ally and instrument. It only shows agony, complex, fear, but most of all shows racism and fascism.
I am happy that you gave my country and nation more arguments to my just cause. I am happy that you show to the world who is violating which treaties.
I really thank you.

The Nazi Greek flag put up by an artist/gallery owner does not say much for Macedonian taste in art, if that image is indeed part of the exhibition. It's also a massive case of projection since this fellow, having been displaced from Greek Macedonia as he claims, lived in the period when Slavophone citizens allied with the Nazis and occupied Greek Macedonia, leading to the deaths of millions and the forced deportation of tens of thousands of Jews to concentration camps. So of course he would consider Greeks to be Nazis, given the history. As Freud said, one projects their sins onto others.

Lastly, DimTuc is incorrect when he says that Greece objects to the name Macedonia in the title of the Republic of Macedonia. It doesn't. It requests that a modifier or descriptor be added to the title such as North or New. So the analogy about Mexico doesn't work since Greece would be perfectly fine with such an adjective as New Mexico.

The reason Greece is in this position is because the term Macedonian is also used by Greek speakers to describe their cultural heritage (and I'm not going back to Alexander the Great). If you look at Salonika and the surrounding areas, there's been a history of cultural organizations that go by the name of Macedonia for the last hundred years, and these organizations have little to do with the nationality of Slavophone Macedonians. Greece objects to the univocal ownership of this term.

Brazilians or Cubans don't call themselves Americans even though they come from the region of the Americas. If they did, you can bet Americans would ask them to at least make a distinction. I can't tell you how many times that I have heard objections from South Americans when I referred to myself as an American.

Basically, what's happened is that Slavophone citizens of the old Ottoman Empire have taken the name of the wider region for their nationality. However, these citizens were not even the majority of a region which was evenly divided among Jews, Turks, Greeks and Bulgarians and/or Macedonians. They can't own the term, since the term belongs to more than their national cohort.

As for the oppressed Macedonian minority in Greece, it's miniscule, first of all. 10,000 people tops even according to the Human Rights Watch census takers. They claim oppression because Greece will not recognize it as a minority, pointing out the extreme absurdity of Greece recognizing a minority that goes by the name of one of its own regions. How can Greece recognize Macedonians as a national minority when for a Greek that term can refer to ALL citizens (the majority) in Greek Macedonia?

Absurd. Bizarre.

Someone has confused their Nazis.

In reality, this has nothing to do with alleged Macedonian claims on the Greek part of geographic Macedonia, which is overwhelmingly Greek ethnically, but is due to Greece's own refusal to recognise the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greek Macedonia, which suffers oppression and complete denial of minority rights.

And just to prempt the avalanche of know-all Greek nationalist posters telling me "I don't know what I'm talking about" etc, ah, sorry, but I do.
(DimTuc, 31 March 2008 13:22)
Can you name some actual events and chronology that took place? When was the last time that you read about your so called ethnic macedonians demonstrating about their human rights?
The fact of the matter is that your politicians are trying to build up forged case with minorities as they have done with history,language and identity
in order to hide their human
rights abuses against turkish
albanian,bulgarian and roma minorities.I will remind you that nearly half of your population are minorities.

Johnny, shouldn't you be IN the EU first before advising who should be a member of the group?

And maybe you think it's funny that the victims of the Nazis are accused by the allies of the Nazis of being Nazis, but really it's just massive projections coming from the guilty ones.

I was a supporter of a quick agreement between the two countries on the name issue, even kind of blaming Greece for not being more flexible, but these late actions in Skopje are plain stupid. They are sinking their own boat.

It looks very much like the Macedonia Republic don't agree they feel very strongly Greece has not been a good neighbor. That Greece is a bully and has yousd coercion these last 17 years on them. Also over 120 country's don't support Greece or its stand but they support the Macedonia Republic and yous that name for it. Maybe it is good for politics in Greece and for the Greek parties to get a few votes to keep the one sided dispute going but as good neighbor Greece I don't think so.

Peter,

I think arguing over Alexander is silly since millenia have passed, and so have bloodlines. No one is an ancestor anymore.

That being said, you wrote: "Macedonians are commonly considered Slavic invaders..."

Can you show us a link to this apocryphal source of history which only you seem to be aware of?

It would be quite an amazing feat considering that the ancient Macedonians were in the region a millenium before the Slavic tribes arrived. Are you saying they had access to a time machine?

Well I have to say that this nazi-flag is rather unorthodox, but it's perfectly fair. May the Greeks have a little taste of what it's like to have their national identity spit on. In Europe, we're supposed to be done with backwards nationalistic rhetoric since World War II. Time for Greece to grow up or leave the EU, if they are still gripping on that rhetoric.

Dan Asta, I AM in the EU for a long time, I'm a Portuguese citizen. Or do you think that only Macedonians and Greeks patrol this topic? And anyway, I wonder what would to be or not to be IN the EU have anything to do with expressing opposition to the shameless Greek attitude that cause this nazi-flag response.

First of all, Alexander the Great participated in the Olympic Games which were only for Greek.

Second of all Talmud, Bible (Daniel's prophecies)Herodotus, Hesiod's, all encyclopedias and ancient sources of the world, mention Macedonia as North Greece.

Third Philip means friend of Horses, and Alexander He who defeats strong men.

Fourth Macedonia means ''Highland in Greek'' and Makedonian ''tall man''. (Macedonian, Cretan, Thracian, Pelloponesian.)

Fifth, the land that fyrom has today and belonged to the ancient kingdom of Macedonia is no more than 10km, the rest has always been part of Bulgaria and Serbia.

Sixth: Fyromians were Nazi collaborators that worked with Nazis in order Hitler to provide them the lands of Northern Greece. Fyrom always had imperialistic targets against Greece, by using the name dispute.

It isn't only for a name...

One thing everybody needs to know.

The billboard that was published with the mentioned flag was an advertisement for an art gallery which will be held in Macedonia and was done by a private investor.

The gallery, ironically, will consist of pictures of the people in the northern part of Greece from the period after the annexation (around 1913).

He, as a minority there, was feeling oppressed and is thus now expressing his feelings through this art exhibition.

It is his right to do so, because any democracy allows him to do so. Freedom of Speech.

Sure, it might be at the wrong time and might be insulting to Greece, but so is the way Greeks refer to us constantly (FYROMIAN, SKOPJAN (which is how their minister referred to us in her last letter to the government) and deny our right to exist as a people, which in other words IS FASCIST!!!

Does anyone else find this whole name dispute stupid?

Macedonians are going overboard with these accusations of Nazism, but at the same time the Greeks are indeed not making matters easier. Macedonians are commonly referred to the Slavic invaders of the Balkans who mixed with the local Illyrian, Thracian, Greek and Roman populations and speak a language similar to that of Bulgaria, why should they not have the right to a country named after them? The ancient Macedonians were assimilated into Greece a long time ago, shouldn't they feel they are a part of Greece rather than to a land belonging to a totally separate and unrelated tribe?

It would be the same thing if the Celtic nations would take offense to France being named after a Germanic tribe rather than Gaul, or if the Baltic Prussians (if they were still around today) were to take offense to Germans calling their country Prussia. It's just a name people, get over it already, things like this only make people think worse of the Balkans (and the opinion is generally quite negative throughout Europe).

Greek minister hasn't heard of freedom of expression. He also hasn't heard of freedom of human rights considering to what Greek police do to Albanian minorities...that's another story.

All of this because of the name of a country?

Now, why don't people ask themselves why Macedonians equate greeks with Nazis??? Hint, it's not what you say, it's WHAT YOU DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peter, you are so right, this thing is entirely ridiculous, but please understand that Greece is the instigator of this whole problem! It's like someone trying to rub your very existence from the face of the earth, and this in fact is exactly what greece is doing in a very insidious and nasty way!

Greece claims we are "Slavs" while the ancient Macedonians were not! First; unproven. This myth is slowly being demolished. Look at these excerpts from an Oxford genetic study report on Slavic speaking peoples, this link from a Macedonian forum;(
www.maknews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7918 )will give you the direct link...

Excerpt; "Contemporary Slavic paternal gene pool is characterized by the predominance of R1a and I1b (xM26) variants as well as the scarcity of E3b1 lineages ..."

Acc. to Oxford, R1a-M17 is found highest among Polish, 56.4%, Ukraine, 54%, Macedonian is at 15.2% !
What other countries have amounts of R1a, many non Slavic countries, surprisingly, including Iceland 23.8%, Norwegian, 17.3%, Hungary, 20.4% - all more than Macedonians!

OK who else has similar amounts to Macedonians? Serbia, 15.9%, Albania 9.8%, Greece,8.3%, GREEK MACEDONIA,35.0%. Thus "Greek Macedonians" have the highest R1a frequency in all of the Southern Balkans. Quite ironic, since it's "Greek Macedonians" that accuse us of being Slavs while they are pure "Hellenes", when in fact, it's quite the opposite!

Further data explains that the E3B1 line of descent is most heavily represented in Mediterranean populations. But guess what, Macedonians have the highest amount
of E3B1 at 24.1% in all of Europe!

So how can Macedonians, supposedly "Slavs" have the highest Mediterranean frequencies in Europe? This, the University of Madrid studies also indicated; ie, the Macedonians are the most Mediterranean of all European people in the E3b1 frequency! I posted the Un. of Madrid results earlier here but they were roundly criticized by the "Greek Makedonians" because "Macedonians were involved"!!?

My point is Greeks have no arguments whatsoever over Macedonians, they themselves are as "Slavic" as us! Delicious irony! The Greek drive against us is a propaganda push because they themselves have committed crimes against ethnic Macedonians in forcibly taking over our land after the Balkan wars. They also would like to "own" all of the Balkan heritage for themselves at the expense of Macedonians, saying we want to monopolize the name when in fact they do! Greece is like a guilty person, who finds themselves in a position of power, and therefore feels no need to accept any responsibility for it's actions!

Greece did not bother to condemn the statements promoting war by the Greek clergy re: Bitola being Greek territory and should be taken back! But they feel it's right and proper to act indignantly when their "sensitivities" are offended!

I seem to recall "Death to Skopiani" graffiti in Greece, and now when some artist makes a statement, they see a little bit of political mileage and once
again play the victim! Poor Greeks, they are so misunderstood.

Nikitas, don't worry my friend. We the Serbs know who are true friends are (Greece, Romania, Russia in particular) and this insult by FYROManians is their own disgrace that will be remembered forever after. The Serbs will always support their Greek brothers in protecting their history and national honor.

Dimitar

100% correct, the R1a gene is commonly referred to as the Indo-European gene originating from the Black Sea, most commonly found in Slavic states (Poland, Ukraine and Russia having the highest frequency), as well as states within the Slavic sphere of influence (this includes Hungary). Even Albanians, Serbs and Croats show high amounts of the Haplotype I, showing that indeed the Macedonians, Bulgarians and Greeks are the purest examples of Mediterranean peoples in Europe. What the Greeks don't understand, is that over the years there have been so many foreign invasions in the Eastern Balkans (Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Slavic, Ottoman etc.) that language can no longer be the sole factor in determining ethnicity, so just because the Greeks speak a Hellenic language and Macedonians a Slavic one, does that make Greeks 100% pure Greek, as in Ancient Greece and Macedonians Slavs? No! Macedonians are Slavic linguistically, Mediterranean genetically, same way Greeks are Hellenic linguistically, Mediterranean genetically.

To conclude people: Macedonia is not a patented Greek region, it is a large area shared by Greece, Bulgaria and FYROM, the FYROM one is the only one that is independent, why should it not use the name Macedonia? Greeks were not the only people living there, there were also Thracians, Illyrians and later, Slavs. So if now the European part of Turkey broke away from the Asian part and called itself Thrace, would the Greeks take offense to that as well, considering Thrace is also shared by Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey and the people also unified with Greeks like the Macedonians did? It's really quite a silly argument.

dan asta

I think it's funny you say:

"It would be quite an amazing feat considering that the ancient Macedonians were in the region a millenium before the Slavic tribes arrived. Are you saying they had access to a time machine?"

After saying this:

"I think arguing over Alexander is silly since millenia have passed, and so have bloodlines. No one is an ancestor anymore. "

You contradict yourself, hehe. As for the quote, you took it out of context, since I said:

"Macedonians are commonly referred to the Slavic invaders of the Balkans who mixed with the local Illyrian, Thracian, Greek and Roman populations and speak a language similar to that of Bulgaria..."

And not just up until the Slavic invaders part.

As for proof of this, please see the following links:

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-4411/Macedonia

Or if you want anthropological/genetic proof, I recommend Carlton Coon's "Races of Europe" book.

KS

Albanians do not have minority status in Greece because they are there illegally. They are treated no different from illegal immigrants in other countries across Europe. If they don't like it there, what's stopping them from going back to Albania which all the Albanians here seem to praise so much as drowning in oil, natural gas and highways?

Anonymus
"Oh how I wait for that day."
Dont hold your breath though. You already turned blue :)

As for who was fighting who.
Since your own records show that you consist of albanians, bulgarians, roma etc. then I must inform you that all of the above were fighting in the lines of the nazis and the ones that fought against them (in our neighbouring lands) were primarly the serbs. unless you consider yourself serb, well then we have a deal :)

Besides with all those ethincities in your country, I cant find any other proper name to call you that would include all, but FYROMians.

As for the UN name, that is what you are participating with in EVERY international organisation, and thus, that is your international name in use. The billateral agreements between you and every other country in the world is of no importance until a formal name is agreed upon within all international organisations.
So.... sorry.

*28 Dimitar.
My FYROMian neighbour,
I am really curious on what do you think that study proves for you. All I have seen is that it reffers to the FYROMians as slavic people, which is absolutely true. Unless you are reffering to the Roma of your country, which of course cant be ay kind of Makedonian people, since they are Roma.
Could you please be so kind to enlighten me with your strong argument, based on the study and then lets see who hides his head in the sand and looks foolish?

*31 uli,
On the other hand, I am not surprised at all. And there are a lot fo historical proof for me not being surprised :)

*34 Peter
Of course there have been lots and lots of intermixtures of peoples in the balkans whch has certainly altered their origins. It is not us that deny the existence of assimilated ethinc groups in the balkans. What we say is that the groups of people residing here, have accepted more or less to blend in with the strongest of the inhabitands. In some cases the Greeks were stronger (population and culture - wise), in some other cases Serbians, or Bulgarians. But in any case those blended groups accepted the culture (language, tradition, even religion) of the strongest in the respective areas.
So the peoples of Greece and all their immigrants, through time have been accepted by the Greek population and were Hellenised on their own free will, whereas in other areas they were forced to do so. Now, go wherever you like in Greece and ask them how they feel, they will answer Greek and that alone is a proof of the ridiculus falsification of Greek ethinicity the FYROMians try to create.

I would suggest our friends from Skopie to change the name of their country not because of Greece but because in Italian Macedonia is the fruit salad (very tasty with ciut ciut Moraskino ) FOR US IT'S ALREADY STRANGE THAT THERE IS A COUNTRY WITH THE NAME OF A bitter! Crne gore=Montenegro (the best sellers of the Italians amari )
Am i asking too much ?

Peter, you are so right, this thing is entirely ridiculous, but please understand that Greece is the instigator of this whole problem! It's like someone trying to rub your very existence from the face of the earth, and this in fact is exactly what greece is doing in a very insidious and nasty way!

Greece claims we are "Slavs" while the ancient Macedonians were not! First; unproven. This myth is slowly being demolished. Look at these excerpts from an Oxford genetic study report on Slavic speaking peoples, this link from a Macedonian forum;(
www.maknews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7918 )will give you the direct link...

Excerpt; "Contemporary Slavic paternal gene pool is characterized by the predominance of R1a and I1b (xM26) variants as well as the scarcity of E3b1 lineages ..."

Acc. to Oxford, R1a-M17 is found highest among Polish, 56.4%, Ukraine, 54%, Macedonian is at 15.2% !
What other countries have amounts of R1a? Many non Slavic countries, surprisingly, including Iceland 23.8%, Norwegian, 17.3%, Hungary, 20.4% - all more than Macedonians!

OK who else has similar amounts to Macedonians? Serbia, 15.9%, Albania 9.8%, Greece,8.3%, GREEK MACEDONIA,35.0%. Thus "Greek Macedonians" have the highest R1a frequency in all of the Southern Balkans! Quite ironic, since it's "Greek Macedonians" that accuse us of being Slavs while they are pure "Hellenes", when in fact, it's quite the opposite!

Further data explains that the E3B1 line of descent is most heavily represented in Mediterranean populations. But guess what, Macedonians have the highest amount
of E3B1 at 24.1% in all of Europe!

So how can Macedonians, supposedly "Slavs" have the highest Mediterranean frequencies in Europe? This, the earlier University of Madrid studies also indicated; ie, the Macedonians are the most Mediterranean of all European people in the E3b1 frequency! I posted the Un. of Madrid results earlier here but they were roundly criticized by the "Greek Makedonians" because "Macedonians were involved"!!?

My point is Greeks have no arguments whatsoever over Macedonians, they themselves are as "Slavic" as us! Delicious irony! The Greek drive against us is a propaganda push because they themselves have committed seriouscrimes against ethnic Macedonians in forcibly taking over our land after the Balkan wars. For egoistic purposes, they also would like to "own" all of the Balkan heritage for themselves at the expense of Macedonians, saying we want to monopolize the name when in fact they do! Greece is like a guilty person, who finds themselves in a position of power, and therefore feels no need to accept any responsibility for it's actions!

Luigi? E tu sei un Italiano vero? Non e possibile, carino. Because if you were a real Italian you would certainly remember that Crna Gora gave your country the most beautiful, racy, noble women, wildly admired for her beauty, your Regina d'Italia. Jelena was her name, if I am not mistaken.

By Nikitas: "Of course we will call you FYROMians, since that is your UN name and that is your official international name. If you ever change it to something else and we agree on it, we will call you by that. That is not fascism, that is respect of international treaties, whereas fascism is to call the others nazis, when the whole world knows that the FYROMians worked together and welcomed nazis without even firing a shot and Greeks were the ones that first of all european countries have managed the first victory of allies against axis forces. (sorry luigi, but this was you :) )"

You want to talk about respect of international treaties? Ok, then maybe you should know a few things.
FYROM is not international NAME for Macedonia. FYROM is nonexistent. The REFERENCE used within UN is "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and it is for use ONLY in the UN. No abbreviation. Since you want to respect international treaties I suggest you do so objectively and not subjectively. Referring to the people of Macedonia as FYROMians is obviously an attempt to insult as well as not incorporate the name Macedonia when referring to us or our country.

Seriously, WE welcomed the Nazis? You sure about that? Not the Bulgarians? Or do you say that because you in fact consider us Bulgarian? We were fighting along Greeks against the Nazis and you don't even want to acknowledge that because that would be acknowledging that we were there, present and fighting and you cannot accept that.

You know, slowly your arguments are getting thiner and thiner, until one day you won't have anything to stand on. Oh how I wait for that day.

Something else you should know. The veto threat back fired for you. Thanks to you, we are able to get our voice heard and thanks to you (because you pressed us too hard) the Macedonian consciousness among the people is at about its highest.

To my SLAVIC greek macedonian friend Nikitas; umm, this is a separate study by
OXFORD!!!!! Here is the direct link;http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/
cgi/reprint/msi185v1.pdf

Read, OXFORD JOURNALS!!!!

Burying your head in the sand only makes you look rather foolish!

To the Serb posters, have a look at the above link; it surveys many European nations, as well as Middle Eastern etc etc. I'm surprised that so many Serbs are so closed; I must say my view of them is changing! Guys, get with the 21st Century!!!!! Life is flux, change... those who are fixed go down with the undertow of TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im albanian as an albanian i support Macedonia over Greece. This is my personal opinion. At least in Macedonia people of different ethnicity live in more harmony with each other then any other balkan countries.

Interesting comment on post 16. I saw the same link as above, http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Science%20290.pdf

It is very interesting, Albanians, Macedonians, Greeks, Lebano and Southern Italians are so close on this genes. It is interesting and im suprised. Check the link.

Hey people relax!
-Slavomakedonians are not the poor little savages that the mighty Greece should kick out/repatriate/ and the rest of fanfare i keep listening here.
- Have you thought that Greek companies established there, may have done so, because they have found there better human "material" than Greece?
- Should we repatriate also the Slavomakedonian tourists who give life to certain tourist places (Halkidiki),
and leave us their money?
- We are a small, yet i wanna believe civilized nation in the balakns, Slavomakedonians are a civilized small nation who belongs to the greater slavic family of yugoslavia,bulgaria.
- Check some "vlatko stefanovski" on you tube.
He has a song about sarajevo. How could i feel hatred for musicians like these?
- We are "played" like marionettes by US/NATO/EU.

Let me give you an example, which i will call "The Makedonian problem for amateurs/ children"

Lets suppose, we have two people, named "Giorgos". If these two people have their shops next to each other, there there will be a dispute over the distinction of the 1st Giorgos's shop over the 2nd.
But if those two ppl start to be friends, then it is natural that a differentiation in maes will come sooner or later.
So 1st Giorgos could be named Giorgos "left", and the 2nd Djordje "right", or George the Greek and George the slav.

P.S.
I dont agree that we (greeks) and you (slavomakedonians) have the same blood. The differences in mannerisms, language, etc... are vast.
However thats a good thing to have this rich variety in todays world where everything tends to be homogenized by the US/NATO/EU, and make us have only one god: money.

@logic :
you are absolutely right about history and personally i think CG is one of the loveliest place on earth and Montenegrin people are ok but if you have been to italy and enter in a bar or gone to a Restaurant ..well Montenegro is a bitter..!!
Anyway i was joking a little bit about the dispute of the names and there was no intention to offend anybody..

Responce to DimTuc

The last time I checked there is no place in the US call Mexico stupid, the place is called NEW MEXICO

Interesting that this flag incident comes a couple of days before the NATO summit.To be honest I don`t really give a damn about this.But one thing is for sure and that is that this issue could have been solved long time ago.FYROM`s government were willing to agree to a composite name but not the Greek government in the beginning of the 90s.If I remember correctly the name would be Upper Macedonia or Slavic Macedonia or something like that.So I think we Greeks should also blame our own governments for not handling this issue well.On the other hand the Slavs in FYROM are victims of Titovs nationalistic propaganda.And to be honest it even goes back further than that.The Slavs In FYROM have nothing to do with Alexander The Great and the Greek Macedons.I think personally that the Slavs in FYROM are more related to the Bulgarians.For God sake it`s the same people.It`s not a coincidence that a lof Slavs in FYROM are asking for Bulgarian citizenship.

Anyway, I hope that the name issue can be solved and that a compromise could be reached between FYROM and Greece.

Peace from a Greek Pontian.

There is an excellent article of Dora Bakoyannis in International Herald Tribune http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/31/opinion/edbakoy.php.

It's a shame for Greece that doesn't take the same approach towrds Albanian/Serbian issue- the natives/new comers.