Macedonia says UN name proposal final

The solution is simple Greece is Greece ,Macedonia is Macedonia and the Macedonia Republic will let the province of Macedonia use the same name. NATO will protect poor frightened Greece from the all powerful Macedonian Republic. Problem solved like more than 120 country's say it is. Greece can refocus back its energy to the Greek Turk dispute as both members of NATO and every one will be semi happy you cant solve them all.

Lets see now.
1. The fyromian FM is mistaken in 2 things in one sentence. You should be proud of him.
1a. Greece is not afraid of any kind of a so called "macedonian" minority, since the only MAKEDONIANs living in Greece are Greeks, which doesnt make them any kind of minority and even more, why should Greeks be afraid of Greeks?
1b. Greece actually is of those countries that fully recognise all religious minorities and gives them full rights. As for ethnic minorities, under lots of international treaties, and since there isnt anyone that actually applied for that, there arent any here, so whos rights should we recognise?

On the other hand, this statement by itself, shows the ultimate targeting of the fyromians to create a fake ethinc minority by using a uniquely Greek tribe name of MAKEDONIANs, to satisfy their irredentist aims, as we all know and experience the last few years.
And this is one of the reasons Greek view on this issue rightfully focuses on this matter of your pretended identity and your ridiculus claims.

As for that organisation. I can create as many organisations as you like, but this will not prove any point, when there is no point to prove.

And as Dimitar said:
"Of course, every Macedonian is categorically against the attack on our identity, name etc. and is against any change!"
Of course. I am proud to be MAKEDONIAN, proud to be GREEK, and I wouldnt sacrifice any of those to anyone that tries to falsify them and steal them from me.

Just read Dimitar, he of the Greek name, if you're wondering why Greece is taking this position. His irredentist claims to Greek territory are held by the vast majority of people from the nation of Macedonia. This is exactly why Greece will veto that nation's membership unless it adopts a geographic descriptor in its name. Dimitar claims there was ethnic cleansing after the Greek civil war, when in point of fact the Slavophone speakers of the area allied first with the Nazis in an attempt to claim Greek Macedonia and Saloniki, and then they sided with Tito, who changed the name of the "state" to Macedonia precisely in his attempt to grab that territory. Ethnic cleansing? Hardly.

Then Dimitar claims the Greeks living in the region are solely settlers. All one has to do is read Mark Mazower's history of the region in his book Salonika to realize that these claims are ludicrous.

And finally he makes a claim about the unlawful taking of land, without realizing that in Greece today--as in many European countries--there are squatter's rights, and if you don't tend to your land after a period of 25 years or claim it, you lose it. This law applies to all Greeks regardless of ethnicity, and I can speak to it myself since we decided as a family to let go of a plot of land in my father's village precisely because claiming it and keeping it up would cost more than the land itself was worth. Albanians live there now, and we've met them, and we're fine with it.

If Macedonia ever wanted to claim territory right over the Greece provinces “Macedonia”, then a name change won’t matter. The Macedonians could rename their country to be called “Republic of Tomorrow.” The Treaty of Bucharest, August 10, 1913 still shows that Aegean (the province that Greece renamed to Macedonia after the Greeks got it in 1913 from this treaty) was part of the land of the new Macedonian nation called “Republic of Tomorrow” that was split apart from it due to the treaty.

It's been clear to all Greeks that the name dispute with FYROM is nothing more than a ploy on their behalf to force more concessions from Greece ie, recognition of their illusionary identity,language and ethnicity.
Having lost the intellectual arguments that are based on
historical facts,their goverment has embarked on a dissinformation campaign to discredit Greece over imaginary minorities human rights violations.In fact Milososki is trying to hide his country's fragnant minority violations that only
recently were condemned by the EU enlargement commissioner Olli Rehn as totally unacceptable for a country that wants to join the EU.
My message to mr milososki is no matter how many lies he spreads in the foregn press Greece will never recognise his country as macedonia.There is only one historical Macedonia that is and has always been part of Greece.

Milososki in Newsweek; " Greece wants Macedonia to change it's Constitutional name because its afraid of the Macedonian minority in its territory. Greece is one of the few European countries that does not recognize minority rights."

Bakojanni; "We do not accept ultimatums!"

No, but you love to give them!

I cant see Dimitar's comment anymore. I dont why it was removed or he violated any kind of rules in here, but I would really like it to be present. In my opinion it wasnt offending or any other kind, I might be wrong though.

Wow, the greek battalions in full overdrive! Can't pulverize us into submission though, what's wrong?
Hey, Nikitas, so you're a Greek "Makedonian" huh? You've mentioned that in your last half dozen posts! Look up the word "oxymoron".

So, will Greece veto? What do you say guys? We already know that Greece is a retrograde factor in modern European history, so lets confirm it to the world huh?

BTW, whether the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA is in or out of NATO we're still going to be here with our national traditions, language, church and archeological inheritance! Same as you...

"... intellectual arguments based on historic facts" quote; Now this is funny! No sane person would ever enter into an "intellectual argument based on historic facts" with a "Greek". Never have I heard such nonsense as that which "Greeks" claim to be "historic facts"! First of all, history is full of theories, assumptions, politicized and subjective "facts" as well as blatant fabrications, omissions and so on. For example Greeks consider that Alexander the Great was "Greek", but from memory Alexander was Macedonian, right? Correct me if I'm wrong but scholars are divided on whether the Macedonians were a Greek tribe! Today, Bulgaria claims him as theirs, same as the Albanians and of course the Macedonians! So please, where does the objectivity begin?

From their statements it's clear that modern Greeks are such a defensive people that no objective assessment of even relatively recent "Greek" history, is possible, let alone the Ancient period! Where no objectivity is possible, how can an "intellectual discussion" ensue?

Dear Nikitas,

Dimitar asked for his post to be removed, and we obliged.

Regards,

B92

There is only one historical Macedonia that is and has always been part of Greece.
(Leonidas, 29 March 2008 21:17)
Dear Leonidas,
Before 1830 it didn't existed any country named "Greece" or "Hellas". The greek province which is named Macedonia came into Greek possession after the Balkan wars. Local population of muslim faith either greeks or slavic-speaking it was exchanged for Christian Ortodox Greeks or Armenians or Christian Ortodox Jews from Black Sea and Asia Minor. That turned the province into a 99% pure Christian Orthodox area, but the majority of them slavic speaking (they call their language "dopka" which means the local language). There are also few Arvanitic villages here and there.
Historically speaking it wasn't Aleksander The Great Macedonia part of Greece, but "Greece" was part of Macedonia.
I have no opinion if these slavic speaking people are "Macedonians" or not. It's up to them te determine themselves how they want to be called. If the slavs mixed and assimilated the ancient macedonians that give them more right into claiming the name Macedonia than someone who was planted in the area because of his religion but originally they were from Black Sea or Asia Minor.
By the way, since you like history, check what were the names of 90% of towns and villages in the greek province of Macedonia before 1936 when Metaxa's Commision changed them into Greek or "Ancient Macedonians" names. So Macedonia wasn't always greek!

Just read Dimitar, he of the Greek name, if you're wondering why Greece is taking this position. His irredentist claims to Greek territory are held by the vast majority of people from the nation of Macedonia. This is exactly why Greece will veto that nation's membership unless it adopts a geographic descriptor in its name. Dimitar claims there was ethnic cleansing after the Greek civil war, when in point of fact the Slavophone speakers of the area allied first with the Nazis in an attempt to claim Greek Macedonia and Saloniki, and then they sided with Tito, who changed the name of the "state" to Macedonia precisely in his attempt to grab that territory. Ethnic cleansing? Hardly.

Then Dimitar claims the Greeks living in the region are solely settlers. All one has to do is read Mark Mazower's history of the region in his book Salonika to realize that these claims are ludicrous.

And finally he makes a claim about the unlawful taking of land, without realizing that in Greece today--as in many European countries--there are squatter's rights, and if you don't tend to your land after a period of 25 years or claim it, you lose it. This law applies to all Greeks regardless of ethnicity, and I can speak to it myself since we decided as a family to let go of a plot of land in my father's village precisely because claiming it and keeping it up would cost more than the land itself was worth. Albanians live there now, and we've met them, and we're fine with it.

If Macedonia ever wanted to claim territory right over the Greece provinces “Macedonia”, then a name change won’t matter. The Macedonians could rename their country to be called “Republic of Tomorrow.” The Treaty of Bucharest, August 10, 1913 still shows that Aegean (the province that Greece renamed to Macedonia after the Greeks got it in 1913 from this treaty) was part of the land of the new Macedonian nation called “Republic of Tomorrow” that was split apart from it due to the treaty.

Lets see now.
1. The fyromian FM is mistaken in 2 things in one sentence. You should be proud of him.
1a. Greece is not afraid of any kind of a so called "macedonian" minority, since the only MAKEDONIANs living in Greece are Greeks, which doesnt make them any kind of minority and even more, why should Greeks be afraid of Greeks?
1b. Greece actually is of those countries that fully recognise all religious minorities and gives them full rights. As for ethnic minorities, under lots of international treaties, and since there isnt anyone that actually applied for that, there arent any here, so whos rights should we recognise?

On the other hand, this statement by itself, shows the ultimate targeting of the fyromians to create a fake ethinc minority by using a uniquely Greek tribe name of MAKEDONIANs, to satisfy their irredentist aims, as we all know and experience the last few years.
And this is one of the reasons Greek view on this issue rightfully focuses on this matter of your pretended identity and your ridiculus claims.

As for that organisation. I can create as many organisations as you like, but this will not prove any point, when there is no point to prove.

And as Dimitar said:
"Of course, every Macedonian is categorically against the attack on our identity, name etc. and is against any change!"
Of course. I am proud to be MAKEDONIAN, proud to be GREEK, and I wouldnt sacrifice any of those to anyone that tries to falsify them and steal them from me.

I cant see Dimitar's comment anymore. I dont why it was removed or he violated any kind of rules in here, but I would really like it to be present. In my opinion it wasnt offending or any other kind, I might be wrong though.

The solution is simple Greece is Greece ,Macedonia is Macedonia and the Macedonia Republic will let the province of Macedonia use the same name. NATO will protect poor frightened Greece from the all powerful Macedonian Republic. Problem solved like more than 120 country's say it is. Greece can refocus back its energy to the Greek Turk dispute as both members of NATO and every one will be semi happy you cant solve them all.

It's been clear to all Greeks that the name dispute with FYROM is nothing more than a ploy on their behalf to force more concessions from Greece ie, recognition of their illusionary identity,language and ethnicity.
Having lost the intellectual arguments that are based on
historical facts,their goverment has embarked on a dissinformation campaign to discredit Greece over imaginary minorities human rights violations.In fact Milososki is trying to hide his country's fragnant minority violations that only
recently were condemned by the EU enlargement commissioner Olli Rehn as totally unacceptable for a country that wants to join the EU.
My message to mr milososki is no matter how many lies he spreads in the foregn press Greece will never recognise his country as macedonia.There is only one historical Macedonia that is and has always been part of Greece.

Dear Nikitas,

Dimitar asked for his post to be removed, and we obliged.

Regards,

B92

Milososki in Newsweek; " Greece wants Macedonia to change it's Constitutional name because its afraid of the Macedonian minority in its territory. Greece is one of the few European countries that does not recognize minority rights."

Bakojanni; "We do not accept ultimatums!"

No, but you love to give them!

Wow, the greek battalions in full overdrive! Can't pulverize us into submission though, what's wrong?
Hey, Nikitas, so you're a Greek "Makedonian" huh? You've mentioned that in your last half dozen posts! Look up the word "oxymoron".

So, will Greece veto? What do you say guys? We already know that Greece is a retrograde factor in modern European history, so lets confirm it to the world huh?

BTW, whether the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA is in or out of NATO we're still going to be here with our national traditions, language, church and archeological inheritance! Same as you...

"... intellectual arguments based on historic facts" quote; Now this is funny! No sane person would ever enter into an "intellectual argument based on historic facts" with a "Greek". Never have I heard such nonsense as that which "Greeks" claim to be "historic facts"! First of all, history is full of theories, assumptions, politicized and subjective "facts" as well as blatant fabrications, omissions and so on. For example Greeks consider that Alexander the Great was "Greek", but from memory Alexander was Macedonian, right? Correct me if I'm wrong but scholars are divided on whether the Macedonians were a Greek tribe! Today, Bulgaria claims him as theirs, same as the Albanians and of course the Macedonians! So please, where does the objectivity begin?

From their statements it's clear that modern Greeks are such a defensive people that no objective assessment of even relatively recent "Greek" history, is possible, let alone the Ancient period! Where no objectivity is possible, how can an "intellectual discussion" ensue?

There is only one historical Macedonia that is and has always been part of Greece.
(Leonidas, 29 March 2008 21:17)
Dear Leonidas,
Before 1830 it didn't existed any country named "Greece" or "Hellas". The greek province which is named Macedonia came into Greek possession after the Balkan wars. Local population of muslim faith either greeks or slavic-speaking it was exchanged for Christian Ortodox Greeks or Armenians or Christian Ortodox Jews from Black Sea and Asia Minor. That turned the province into a 99% pure Christian Orthodox area, but the majority of them slavic speaking (they call their language "dopka" which means the local language). There are also few Arvanitic villages here and there.
Historically speaking it wasn't Aleksander The Great Macedonia part of Greece, but "Greece" was part of Macedonia.
I have no opinion if these slavic speaking people are "Macedonians" or not. It's up to them te determine themselves how they want to be called. If the slavs mixed and assimilated the ancient macedonians that give them more right into claiming the name Macedonia than someone who was planted in the area because of his religion but originally they were from Black Sea or Asia Minor.
By the way, since you like history, check what were the names of 90% of towns and villages in the greek province of Macedonia before 1936 when Metaxa's Commision changed them into Greek or "Ancient Macedonians" names. So Macedonia wasn't always greek!