Dodik insists RS has right to self-determination

Mr KS!,
would you be so kind to list the number of Serbs murdered by NATO/Mujahedins/Ustasha, and the number of muslims killed by their own, by the Yugoslav Army, etc...?

How many "srebrenicas" against Serbs (of the order of 3000 dead) happened in the Bosnian wars???

But the media gave attention to ONE dutch "inspired" srebrenica and not the MANY serb-targeted "srebrenicas"...

Please enligthen me, cause all the sources i've read Serbs casualties were proportionally larger than the rest of ethnicities.

But the biggest victim of these wars was the truth.

RS should declare it´s independence from the US-backed Wahabis and the whole NATO-protectorate of "Bosnia" right now.

What would happen then? Will NATO again start killing serbs by the tousands? Not likely, nobody falls for Solanas empty threats. The western powers and their empire are dying in the sands of the gulf and they know it.

It is time to break away! Bosnia is a country that is non existing. The region cannot be stabil before Bosnia is split up in two countries.

Opinions from Sweden

To the Serb in RS & Dodik;

JUST DO IT!

The window is now!

After Kosovo is partitioned (it's only a matter of time now) Bosnia is the last domino to fall in the Balkans. To avoid another civil war in Bosnia, the IC should just let them go thier own ways. What's good for Kosovo and the west's reason behind it is also good for Bosnia.

I cannot believe this from the west, such a double-standard. I am so happy that Canada has stayed out of this at least.

KS...

Isnt it exactly what happend whit serbs in kosovo? Wasnt they cleaned up from there in last few centuries and espacialy last few decades?

And where are serbs from muslim part of bosnia?

yes the Serbs do have the right to govern their own since republica srpska is almost 90% Serbs any way, yes they should have a vote sooner than later...

hans christian, as ever, i like the stories :)
what would your point be though?
kosovo is the heart of the serb nation. you guys will really have to accept that if you ever hope to understand what's currently happening in serbia and what's coming. it's also at the very core of our survival as a state in our modern sovereign borders, and can in no way be compared to a bunch of arctic or thereabouts islands somewhere.

and since you can and like to read :) here's a bit of a read for you, an example of how sundetenland was 'resolved', and what came after. a much more relevant example.

'The Nazis, together with their Sudeten German allies, demanded incorporation of the region into Nazi Germany to escape "oppression", in fact to destroy the Czechoslovak state. While the Czechoslovak government mobilized its troops, the Western powers urged it to comply with Germany believing that they could prevent or postpone a general war by appeasing Hitler.'

the gist of something called 'the munich agreement'. it's also called 'peace in our time'. you could also call it, 'long-term regional stability' if you like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_agreement

http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/ralph/workbook/ralprs36.htm

Lenard

Peace was signed in BiH by all parties (Serbians, Croats and Muslims) as early as 1992 with the Carrington-Cutileiro (Lisbon) Agreement.

It was the US who demanded Izetbegović reneg his signature and the rest is history. The US and Germany are responsible for the carnage in the former YU by pushing through premature recognition and imposing their solution rather than permitting negotiations.

So Lenard, when is your government going to allow the hundreds of thousands of ethnically cleansed Serbians back into Krajina?

"How can you seperate such a small Bosnia into another 3 seperate countries? Bosnias ethnic or religious mix has been around since the 12 century. Bosnians speak the same language (accent), eat the same food, and have the same mentality. Its only recently that religion was introduced into politics in order to distabilize our harmonous lifes. I hope that people of Bosnia and Herzegovina will soon realize that more divisions will only create more gain for the already corrupt politicians and more hardship for the ordinary citizens.
(jin, 10 March 2008 10:19)

After all "bosnians spoke the same language (accent), eat the same food, and have the same mentality" even before the breakup of former Yugoslavia. So, what was the meaning of becoming a new country?

Bosnia is a mini-yugoslavia. so, if the old country could not survive, the same will happen with Bosnia. And, please, din't tell me that was just Milosevici's mistake. It's only a matter of time until the west , the so-called "international community" will realise that.

You Balkans should take a look at how the controversy around the division of Schleswig, an area between Northern Germany and Southern Denmark, was resolved in 1920.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig_Plebiscites

Basically the area had been contested in many years, ending in a short war of 1864 (which Denmark lost), and then in World War 1 (which we all know Germany lost in 1919).

3 different elections were meant to be held: 1) One in the mostly Danish friendly northern area, 2) A multitude of local elections in the "mixed area", and finally 3) A election in the German friendly southern area.

Only then - after elections were held - did the politicians get out their pen and paper and started to draw the new borders, doing their best to respect the wishes of the local people, but sometimes overruling local elections in the mixed area that would have resulted in small "islands" of the opposite kind.

You might also want to look at recent events concerning the Faroe Islands, a small group of islands somewhere far, far out in the North Sea with a population of approx. 50,000 people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faroe_Islands

They are fairly independent, have their own parliament, etc, but some areas like foreign policy is controlled from main Denmark. Still some of the islanders wants full independence, and after an election victory (I think it was some 10 years ago), a delegation was sent to the Danish Prime Minister to discuss their goal of full independence. The talks were unexpectedly short. The Prime Minister surprised them by saying: "Sure - no problem. When do you want your independence? In 5 years?"

"Yes" said the Faroe representatives.

"Fine" said the Prime Minister. "Then we will start cutting into the money you receive from Denmark by 20% each year, so that you will be completely independent in 5 years time".

Faroe: "Oh wait.... We didn't mean it like that. We will come back to you about this independence business .... later. Bye".

Serbs did not steal any weapons from Bosnians. All the arsenal belonged to the Yugoslav army and not any other "legitimate" army. The only legitimate army then was the Yugoslav army.

Now that people decided to rebel against the Yugoslav army and form their own military did not entitle them to keep the weapons they had on ground at the time. The Yugoslav army had every right to take what is theirs and since Yugoslavia still existed Yugoslav army was also legitimate.

Also, if the Albanians posters here keep holding onto Srebrenica like it was the holy grail please note that what crimes happened and what didn't can be explained much more precisely by people on the ground at the time and people in command of the UN. I am speaking of General L. McKenzie who tells a different story in his book to what has become the popular exhaggerated version told by CNN and the like.

According to the general there were many staged events and some made to look the way that would enable the west to intervene, while the whole time leaving out crimes against the Serbs.

He does state that all three sides had their share of blame so then how can the Albanians keep on saying that Kosovo independence is just because only the Albanians endured oppression and therefore deserve a country but the Serbs were only the agressors and don't deserve anything. The first casualty of any war is the truth and Serbian truth has been killed very early on.

RS deserves to be independent at least for the same reason the Albanians claim they deserve independence. Crimes were committed against the Serbs but not reported by the west. Jusbe because they were not reported by the west doesn't mean they didn't happen. Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Krajina. That entitles them to Krajina now as well. Hey, I am only following the formula set by the west. Wherever Serbs were expelled from and murdered by the thousands the west must give those territories to them now and allow them to secede from those new countries.

I really wanna see what they are gonna do about republika srpska, they are not gonna touch them, they are not even gonna breath close to them.

Republika Srpska should declare independence and reunify with Serbia. Bosnia & Hercegovina is an artificial state with no viable future.

Independence for Republika Srpska and the Croatian parts of the Federation are inevitable and will led to the security of borders and lasting peace in this troubled part of Europe.

Northern Kosovo will remain a part of Serbia and the international community needs to establish a presence in Macedonia and Montenegro to ensure that Albanian separatism doesn't remerge there.

The Albanian unilateral declaration has created a precedent regardless of what the US and other nations have said.

KS:

Amusing coming from you :)

Do you realise that if you substituted the words 'Kosovo' for 'Srebenica' & 'serbs' for 'Bosnians' in your post, you would sound exactly like a serb protesting K-albanian UDI?

The word hypocrisy comes to mind.


Jan Andersen:
"My point is, that the decision on independence, the right to determine ones own future, rests solely with the people living the affected areas "

Like it is wrong for the K-albanians in Pristina to decide if serbs in northern part of Kosovo should be part of something called 'republic of Kosovo'?

Point is that once you start ignoring territorial boundaries, where do you draw the line?

The US & 'brussels' in their arrogance have opened Pandora's box & ignored UN

charter & Helsinki accords. This is the result.

Any break-away group that wants to can use Kosovo as a precedent.

The precedent has been set therefore making it open the people of Republika Srpska to decide their future. There is nothing that the US and the EU can do but deny recognition which is the exact same situation as we have in Kosovo. Hypocrisy seems to have bitten the US and EU in the proverbial backside once again.
And to Jan Andersen,
The world that you seek to achieve where borders become obsolete is progressively trying to be achieved by the New World Order. So unless you are a member of the extremely elite I think it is in your best interest to oppose such ideology. National sovereignty is the basis of the world structure and always will be.

Keep dreaming that you are going to get a self-proclaimed "republic" independent..everyone knows what happened in Srebrenica..you think the world is going to let a territory which was systematically killing all Bosnians in that region for you to be a majority become independent???

Everything comes to an end. All empires rise and fall. When NATO, the EU falls then you will see. Nothing lasts forever - not even the UN - which is splittering now.

Dodik is right, if Kosovo can become a protectorate of the EU, so can Srpska which is economically viable and needs no EU aid. We will not listen to any edict issued by the Islamicist Silajdzic enough is enough. By the way Lenard is not a Croation name. Viva Dodik viva!.

RE: The real question is why YU was broken up by the US and Germany and a "Mini-Yugoslavia re-created with the Dayton Accord"

Serbs know the answer to that one-for the KLA Albanian extremists, there is no justification or historical precedence for the illegal declaration of Kosovo.

It was part of the Ottoman and Serbian empires-a vilyat amoung many within the Ottoman empire.

Bosnia Herzegovina in 1910 was seized by Austria Hungary which led to the shooting of Gavrilo Princip.

Croatia became a country because of historical precedence, it was a kingdom under Tomislav in the 9th century, it did have a functioning Sabor although under the direction of the Hungarians for centuries.

Sorry to say, Kosovo does not have any historical precedence to be a country other than false propoganda and JOSIP BROZ TITO who created the autonomous region withing Serbia. Very similar to the FYROM cousins who are trying to steal Greek history as the KLA is trying to steal Illyrian History.

RS exists since `92, Kosovo`s authonomy since ´74.
Serbs have been living in Bosnia for last 500 years, Albanians haven`t been present in Kosovo before 19th century. All arguments are on Serbian side.

On 9 March 2008 20:12, smile wrote:

> what would your point be though?

My point is, that the decision on independence, the right to determine ones own future, rests solely with the people living the affected areas.

It would be wrong for the people in Southern Denmark to decide if the Faroe Islands should be independent or not.

Like it would have been wrong if the people in Copenhagen had any say in whether people living in Schleswig should stay connected with the rest of Denmark or join up with Germany.

Like it is wrong for the people living north/east part of Serbia to decide if Kosovo should be independent or not.

Like it is wrong for the people living in southern Spain to decide if the Basques in north-west Spain should have an independent state or not.

That is my point: Leave the decision to the people that actually live in area.

You talk about Kosovo being the heart of the Serbia nation and essential to your survival as a nation. I guess this is where you and I really diverge. I have no interest in nation building. I want a world with no borders, a world were everyone is free to travel, live and work everywhere. A world where you judge people on how they behave, and not where they are born, who their parents were, or which Deity they worship.

Jan Andersen:
"I want a world with no borders, a world were everyone is free to travel, live and work everywhere. A world where you judge people on how they behave, and not where they are born, who their parents were, or which Deity they worship. "

All laudible ideals to which all should aspire & I have no issue with you here.

Unfortunately, reality is different. People are competitive & selfish by nature, & if an advantage is seen, it is generally taken. Same goes for nations-states, only more so.

That's why we have laws.

And that's why we need the rule of law to also govern the behaviour of states - was the idea behind the League of Nations & the UN. Would be nice if there was a 'World Government' which regulated this - but the chances of this happening, in the short term at least, are minimal. 'World powers' will only surrender sovereignity if something 'nasty' happens - like WW's I & II.

Yes, UN hasn't been especially effective in preventing regional wars, but the framework is in place, & for the last 60yrs, have had no more global wars. And is effective in 'relief & aid' missions.

And UN is best thing we have at this point in time.

Blindly arguing the abrogation of the principles of the UN puts us back over 60yrs.

And blindly advocating granting the right of secession to any group that desires it is simplistic in the extreme. Such an idea ignores human nature & the lessons of history & will only lead to anarchy, war & death.

How can you seperate such a small Bosnia into another 3 seperate countries? Bosnias ethnic or religious mix has been around since the 12 century. Bosnians speak the same language (accent), eat the same food, and have the same mentality. Its only recently that religion was introduced into politics in order to distabilize our harmonous lifes. I hope that people of Bosnia and Herzegovina will soon realize that more divisions will only create more gain for the already corrupt politicians and more hardship for the ordinary citizens.

Why stop there?

Why not Croats take a slice of Bosnia too, Serbia the RS, Bosnia a piece of Serbia, Albanians a piece of Montenegro, Preseva Valley, Macedonia, Hungarians a piece of Vojvvodina, on and on and on

The point is, every country is multi ethnic and they will remain such. EUs words were clear: no more new countries, Kosova was the last piece.

The RS is something that never existed until the war broke out. And this fake entity was created to stop the war. It will never get any kind of support for self-determination (other than Serbia and MAYBE Russia).

Let me take a wild guess here. Serbia had no fault at what happened in Bosnia, In Croatia and in Kosova/o. So then were the people in Bosnia fighting themselves, where the Croats fighting themselves, were the Albanians in Kosova/o fighting themselves?

STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP!

Enough!

I have a wife who is half Croat, half Serb. She is form Vukovar, and she is a remarkable woman. Both sides of her family are full of remarkable people.

Amazing they don't speak to each other.

Amazing that a once beautiful city is STILL a wreck 15 years later.

A. Yes it was devastated by the JNA

B. I'm pretty sure Croatia could have rebuilt it by now, if it wasn't such a handy stick to poke in Serbia's eye.


Kosovo is a poor, tiny dungheap not worth killing over.

Bosina looks like thousands of Vukovars combined.


WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?

Dodik no body takes you seriously of your ranting and raving hold your breath that might help. Like no one sees what your game plan you think your so smart and clever. Remember this is not 1990s when you Serbs stoled 99% of the weapons in Bosnia Republic of its legitimate government and yous them on the civilians with murderous consequences be ashamed. Srpska entity got more then it deserved or is just!

“RS should declare it´s independence from the US-backed Wahabis and the whole NATO-protectorate of "Bosnia" right now.”

Bosnian Muslims are not wahabbis — women can vote, drive, walk freely in the streets without veils and using jeans pants, and there is no official sharia law in any way.

And differently from Bosnia and Kosovo, RS has no history — it was created due to the 1992-1995 Bosnian War. Nor RS has geographical coherence, since it is divided in two by Brcko and the Posavina.

“After Kosovo is partitioned (it's only a matter of time now) Bosnia is the last domino to fall in the Balkans. To avoid another civil war in Bosnia, the IC should just let them go thier own ways.”

No chance for RS independence, since the International Community, EU and NATO acknowledges RS as an integral part of Bosnia, not Serbia. And since there is no Serb or Russian troops in Bosnia, independence is impossible. Period.

One more thing. I see a lot of references to historical events, who lived where and when. And I ask myself: Who cares? None of us live in the past (no matter how much we would like to), but we are forced to live in future. So why not try to make the best of it?

You probably don't believe me, but the English and the French people don't go around hating the Germans, and yet it is only a little more than 50 years since the biggest war in European history ended.

My country (Denmark) and Sweden fought endless wars for 400 years (ending in 1814 or so with the formation of modern day Denmark, Norway and Sweden), yet today we are best friends. And we don't hate the Germans either.

Life is short friends - make the best of it while you can.

“Bosnia is a mini-yugoslavia. so, if the old country could not survive, the same will happen with Bosnia.”

No, Bosnia was not a mini-Yugoslavia, since Yugoslavia has been for decades constituted of largely autonomous and defined republics with their own flags, coats of arms, legislatures and laws, which became even more autonomous (including the autonomous Kosovo and Vojvodina, de-facto republics with rights to the federal council and the rotating presidency) after 1974.

Bosnia has been an unified political entity for a long time, since the times of the Ottomans and maybe even before, and the current division into “Dayton mini-me countries” is from 1995. Its peoples until the war did no live separately in compact units on the territory; to the contrary, any trustable ethnographic map shows that Catholics, Orthodox and Muslim peoples lived together and even inter-married.

And since 15% of the Bosnian Serbs voted for the independence of Bosnia from Yugoslavia in 1992, I think that if the brutal ethnic cleansing perpetrated by criminals Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic and Arkan would be reversed, most of the population of the areas that now constitute Republika Srpska would opt to stay in Bosnia and out of Serbia.

Differently from Kosovo, the main reason behind Bosnia current situation is religion, not ethnicity. RS does not deserve independence nor annexation to Serbia.

KS:
“Keep dreaming that you are going to get a self-proclaimed "republic" independent..everyone knows what happened in Srebrenica..you think the world is going to let a territory which was systematically killing all Bosnians in that region for you to be a majority become independent???”

I think YOU should wake up from your dream! Srebrenica, Ha!! Everyone knows what happened in Srebrenica?? Is that before or after Naser Orić as his muhajadin warriors slaughtered, mutilated, and decapitated 1000 Serbian villages surrounding Srebrenica?!

” The Muslim forces in Srebrenica were led by one Naser Oric who “had carried out murderous raids against nearby Serb villages”. Oric’s Muslim fighters beheaded the bodies of Serbs, reminding Serbs of the Ottoman occupation.”

And what about the 2004 Albanian riots in Kosovo, and death of thousands of Serbs and the desecration of monasteries since 99?? I guess that’s our fault too?!

"Bosnia Herzegovina in 1910 was seized by Austria Hungary which led to the shooting of Gavrilo Princip."

Erm, no, that was in 1878 konstantin.

On 10 March 2008 04:41, peter, sydney wrote:

> Like it is wrong for the K-albanians in Pristina to decide if serbs in northern part of Kosovo should be part of something called 'republic of Kosovo'?

Yes, exactly.

> Point is that once you start ignoring territorial boundaries, where do you draw the line?

Who said *you* or anyone else has to draw a line? If someone who owns 100 square feet of land somewhere in the middle of nowhere in the territory of Western Australia want to create his own state, why not let them try? Soon they will figure out it gets very difficult to get medical help, because now the medical service belongs to another country. And their passports are suddenly no good. Reality will soon decide if it was a viable idea or not. *You* don't have to draw a line anywhere.

> The US & 'brussels' in their arrogance have opened Pandora's box & ignored UN

They sure have. And I am looking forward to the result. I look forward to see South Ossetia re-joining Russia (if that is what the majority want) and Nagorno-Karabakh join up with Armenia - again, if that is what fair and open referendum will show.

> Any break-away group that wants to can use Kosovo as a precedent.

Yes. I hope so.

Keep dreaming that you are going to get a self-proclaimed "republic" independent..everyone knows what happened in Srebrenica..you think the world is going to let a territory which was systematically killing all Bosnians in that region for you to be a majority become independent???

Why stop there?

Why not Croats take a slice of Bosnia too, Serbia the RS, Bosnia a piece of Serbia, Albanians a piece of Montenegro, Preseva Valley, Macedonia, Hungarians a piece of Vojvvodina, on and on and on

The point is, every country is multi ethnic and they will remain such. EUs words were clear: no more new countries, Kosova was the last piece.

The RS is something that never existed until the war broke out. And this fake entity was created to stop the war. It will never get any kind of support for self-determination (other than Serbia and MAYBE Russia).

Dodik no body takes you seriously of your ranting and raving hold your breath that might help. Like no one sees what your game plan you think your so smart and clever. Remember this is not 1990s when you Serbs stoled 99% of the weapons in Bosnia Republic of its legitimate government and yous them on the civilians with murderous consequences be ashamed. Srpska entity got more then it deserved or is just!

“RS should declare it´s independence from the US-backed Wahabis and the whole NATO-protectorate of "Bosnia" right now.”

Bosnian Muslims are not wahabbis — women can vote, drive, walk freely in the streets without veils and using jeans pants, and there is no official sharia law in any way.

And differently from Bosnia and Kosovo, RS has no history — it was created due to the 1992-1995 Bosnian War. Nor RS has geographical coherence, since it is divided in two by Brcko and the Posavina.

“After Kosovo is partitioned (it's only a matter of time now) Bosnia is the last domino to fall in the Balkans. To avoid another civil war in Bosnia, the IC should just let them go thier own ways.”

No chance for RS independence, since the International Community, EU and NATO acknowledges RS as an integral part of Bosnia, not Serbia. And since there is no Serb or Russian troops in Bosnia, independence is impossible. Period.

Let me take a wild guess here. Serbia had no fault at what happened in Bosnia, In Croatia and in Kosova/o. So then were the people in Bosnia fighting themselves, where the Croats fighting themselves, were the Albanians in Kosova/o fighting themselves?

Mr KS!,
would you be so kind to list the number of Serbs murdered by NATO/Mujahedins/Ustasha, and the number of muslims killed by their own, by the Yugoslav Army, etc...?

How many "srebrenicas" against Serbs (of the order of 3000 dead) happened in the Bosnian wars???

But the media gave attention to ONE dutch "inspired" srebrenica and not the MANY serb-targeted "srebrenicas"...

Please enligthen me, cause all the sources i've read Serbs casualties were proportionally larger than the rest of ethnicities.

But the biggest victim of these wars was the truth.

On 9 March 2008 20:12, smile wrote:

> what would your point be though?

My point is, that the decision on independence, the right to determine ones own future, rests solely with the people living the affected areas.

It would be wrong for the people in Southern Denmark to decide if the Faroe Islands should be independent or not.

Like it would have been wrong if the people in Copenhagen had any say in whether people living in Schleswig should stay connected with the rest of Denmark or join up with Germany.

Like it is wrong for the people living north/east part of Serbia to decide if Kosovo should be independent or not.

Like it is wrong for the people living in southern Spain to decide if the Basques in north-west Spain should have an independent state or not.

That is my point: Leave the decision to the people that actually live in area.

You talk about Kosovo being the heart of the Serbia nation and essential to your survival as a nation. I guess this is where you and I really diverge. I have no interest in nation building. I want a world with no borders, a world were everyone is free to travel, live and work everywhere. A world where you judge people on how they behave, and not where they are born, who their parents were, or which Deity they worship.

How can you seperate such a small Bosnia into another 3 seperate countries? Bosnias ethnic or religious mix has been around since the 12 century. Bosnians speak the same language (accent), eat the same food, and have the same mentality. Its only recently that religion was introduced into politics in order to distabilize our harmonous lifes. I hope that people of Bosnia and Herzegovina will soon realize that more divisions will only create more gain for the already corrupt politicians and more hardship for the ordinary citizens.

“Bosnia is a mini-yugoslavia. so, if the old country could not survive, the same will happen with Bosnia.”

No, Bosnia was not a mini-Yugoslavia, since Yugoslavia has been for decades constituted of largely autonomous and defined republics with their own flags, coats of arms, legislatures and laws, which became even more autonomous (including the autonomous Kosovo and Vojvodina, de-facto republics with rights to the federal council and the rotating presidency) after 1974.

Bosnia has been an unified political entity for a long time, since the times of the Ottomans and maybe even before, and the current division into “Dayton mini-me countries” is from 1995. Its peoples until the war did no live separately in compact units on the territory; to the contrary, any trustable ethnographic map shows that Catholics, Orthodox and Muslim peoples lived together and even inter-married.

And since 15% of the Bosnian Serbs voted for the independence of Bosnia from Yugoslavia in 1992, I think that if the brutal ethnic cleansing perpetrated by criminals Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic and Arkan would be reversed, most of the population of the areas that now constitute Republika Srpska would opt to stay in Bosnia and out of Serbia.

Differently from Kosovo, the main reason behind Bosnia current situation is religion, not ethnicity. RS does not deserve independence nor annexation to Serbia.

RS should declare it´s independence from the US-backed Wahabis and the whole NATO-protectorate of "Bosnia" right now.

What would happen then? Will NATO again start killing serbs by the tousands? Not likely, nobody falls for Solanas empty threats. The western powers and their empire are dying in the sands of the gulf and they know it.

It is time to break away! Bosnia is a country that is non existing. The region cannot be stabil before Bosnia is split up in two countries.

Opinions from Sweden

I cannot believe this from the west, such a double-standard. I am so happy that Canada has stayed out of this at least.

After Kosovo is partitioned (it's only a matter of time now) Bosnia is the last domino to fall in the Balkans. To avoid another civil war in Bosnia, the IC should just let them go thier own ways. What's good for Kosovo and the west's reason behind it is also good for Bosnia.

To the Serb in RS & Dodik;

JUST DO IT!

The window is now!

Dodik is right, if Kosovo can become a protectorate of the EU, so can Srpska which is economically viable and needs no EU aid. We will not listen to any edict issued by the Islamicist Silajdzic enough is enough. By the way Lenard is not a Croation name. Viva Dodik viva!.

Republika Srpska should declare independence and reunify with Serbia. Bosnia & Hercegovina is an artificial state with no viable future.

Independence for Republika Srpska and the Croatian parts of the Federation are inevitable and will led to the security of borders and lasting peace in this troubled part of Europe.

Northern Kosovo will remain a part of Serbia and the international community needs to establish a presence in Macedonia and Montenegro to ensure that Albanian separatism doesn't remerge there.

The Albanian unilateral declaration has created a precedent regardless of what the US and other nations have said.

Serbs did not steal any weapons from Bosnians. All the arsenal belonged to the Yugoslav army and not any other "legitimate" army. The only legitimate army then was the Yugoslav army.

Now that people decided to rebel against the Yugoslav army and form their own military did not entitle them to keep the weapons they had on ground at the time. The Yugoslav army had every right to take what is theirs and since Yugoslavia still existed Yugoslav army was also legitimate.

Also, if the Albanians posters here keep holding onto Srebrenica like it was the holy grail please note that what crimes happened and what didn't can be explained much more precisely by people on the ground at the time and people in command of the UN. I am speaking of General L. McKenzie who tells a different story in his book to what has become the popular exhaggerated version told by CNN and the like.

According to the general there were many staged events and some made to look the way that would enable the west to intervene, while the whole time leaving out crimes against the Serbs.

He does state that all three sides had their share of blame so then how can the Albanians keep on saying that Kosovo independence is just because only the Albanians endured oppression and therefore deserve a country but the Serbs were only the agressors and don't deserve anything. The first casualty of any war is the truth and Serbian truth has been killed very early on.

RS deserves to be independent at least for the same reason the Albanians claim they deserve independence. Crimes were committed against the Serbs but not reported by the west. Jusbe because they were not reported by the west doesn't mean they didn't happen. Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Krajina. That entitles them to Krajina now as well. Hey, I am only following the formula set by the west. Wherever Serbs were expelled from and murdered by the thousands the west must give those territories to them now and allow them to secede from those new countries.

RE: The real question is why YU was broken up by the US and Germany and a "Mini-Yugoslavia re-created with the Dayton Accord"

Serbs know the answer to that one-for the KLA Albanian extremists, there is no justification or historical precedence for the illegal declaration of Kosovo.

It was part of the Ottoman and Serbian empires-a vilyat amoung many within the Ottoman empire.

Bosnia Herzegovina in 1910 was seized by Austria Hungary which led to the shooting of Gavrilo Princip.

Croatia became a country because of historical precedence, it was a kingdom under Tomislav in the 9th century, it did have a functioning Sabor although under the direction of the Hungarians for centuries.

Sorry to say, Kosovo does not have any historical precedence to be a country other than false propoganda and JOSIP BROZ TITO who created the autonomous region withing Serbia. Very similar to the FYROM cousins who are trying to steal Greek history as the KLA is trying to steal Illyrian History.

RS exists since `92, Kosovo`s authonomy since ´74.
Serbs have been living in Bosnia for last 500 years, Albanians haven`t been present in Kosovo before 19th century. All arguments are on Serbian side.

One more thing. I see a lot of references to historical events, who lived where and when. And I ask myself: Who cares? None of us live in the past (no matter how much we would like to), but we are forced to live in future. So why not try to make the best of it?

You probably don't believe me, but the English and the French people don't go around hating the Germans, and yet it is only a little more than 50 years since the biggest war in European history ended.

My country (Denmark) and Sweden fought endless wars for 400 years (ending in 1814 or so with the formation of modern day Denmark, Norway and Sweden), yet today we are best friends. And we don't hate the Germans either.

Life is short friends - make the best of it while you can.

KS...

Isnt it exactly what happend whit serbs in kosovo? Wasnt they cleaned up from there in last few centuries and espacialy last few decades?

And where are serbs from muslim part of bosnia?

You Balkans should take a look at how the controversy around the division of Schleswig, an area between Northern Germany and Southern Denmark, was resolved in 1920.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig_Plebiscites

Basically the area had been contested in many years, ending in a short war of 1864 (which Denmark lost), and then in World War 1 (which we all know Germany lost in 1919).

3 different elections were meant to be held: 1) One in the mostly Danish friendly northern area, 2) A multitude of local elections in the "mixed area", and finally 3) A election in the German friendly southern area.

Only then - after elections were held - did the politicians get out their pen and paper and started to draw the new borders, doing their best to respect the wishes of the local people, but sometimes overruling local elections in the mixed area that would have resulted in small "islands" of the opposite kind.

You might also want to look at recent events concerning the Faroe Islands, a small group of islands somewhere far, far out in the North Sea with a population of approx. 50,000 people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faroe_Islands

They are fairly independent, have their own parliament, etc, but some areas like foreign policy is controlled from main Denmark. Still some of the islanders wants full independence, and after an election victory (I think it was some 10 years ago), a delegation was sent to the Danish Prime Minister to discuss their goal of full independence. The talks were unexpectedly short. The Prime Minister surprised them by saying: "Sure - no problem. When do you want your independence? In 5 years?"

"Yes" said the Faroe representatives.

"Fine" said the Prime Minister. "Then we will start cutting into the money you receive from Denmark by 20% each year, so that you will be completely independent in 5 years time".

Faroe: "Oh wait.... We didn't mean it like that. We will come back to you about this independence business .... later. Bye".

yes the Serbs do have the right to govern their own since republica srpska is almost 90% Serbs any way, yes they should have a vote sooner than later...

Lenard

Peace was signed in BiH by all parties (Serbians, Croats and Muslims) as early as 1992 with the Carrington-Cutileiro (Lisbon) Agreement.

It was the US who demanded Izetbegović reneg his signature and the rest is history. The US and Germany are responsible for the carnage in the former YU by pushing through premature recognition and imposing their solution rather than permitting negotiations.

So Lenard, when is your government going to allow the hundreds of thousands of ethnically cleansed Serbians back into Krajina?

STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP!

Enough!

I have a wife who is half Croat, half Serb. She is form Vukovar, and she is a remarkable woman. Both sides of her family are full of remarkable people.

Amazing they don't speak to each other.

Amazing that a once beautiful city is STILL a wreck 15 years later.

A. Yes it was devastated by the JNA

B. I'm pretty sure Croatia could have rebuilt it by now, if it wasn't such a handy stick to poke in Serbia's eye.


Kosovo is a poor, tiny dungheap not worth killing over.

Bosina looks like thousands of Vukovars combined.


WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?

KS:

Amusing coming from you :)

Do you realise that if you substituted the words 'Kosovo' for 'Srebenica' & 'serbs' for 'Bosnians' in your post, you would sound exactly like a serb protesting K-albanian UDI?

The word hypocrisy comes to mind.


Jan Andersen:
"My point is, that the decision on independence, the right to determine ones own future, rests solely with the people living the affected areas "

Like it is wrong for the K-albanians in Pristina to decide if serbs in northern part of Kosovo should be part of something called 'republic of Kosovo'?

Point is that once you start ignoring territorial boundaries, where do you draw the line?

The US & 'brussels' in their arrogance have opened Pandora's box & ignored UN

charter & Helsinki accords. This is the result.

Any break-away group that wants to can use Kosovo as a precedent.

I really wanna see what they are gonna do about republika srpska, they are not gonna touch them, they are not even gonna breath close to them.

Everything comes to an end. All empires rise and fall. When NATO, the EU falls then you will see. Nothing lasts forever - not even the UN - which is splittering now.

"Bosnia Herzegovina in 1910 was seized by Austria Hungary which led to the shooting of Gavrilo Princip."

Erm, no, that was in 1878 konstantin.

On 10 March 2008 04:41, peter, sydney wrote:

> Like it is wrong for the K-albanians in Pristina to decide if serbs in northern part of Kosovo should be part of something called 'republic of Kosovo'?

Yes, exactly.

> Point is that once you start ignoring territorial boundaries, where do you draw the line?

Who said *you* or anyone else has to draw a line? If someone who owns 100 square feet of land somewhere in the middle of nowhere in the territory of Western Australia want to create his own state, why not let them try? Soon they will figure out it gets very difficult to get medical help, because now the medical service belongs to another country. And their passports are suddenly no good. Reality will soon decide if it was a viable idea or not. *You* don't have to draw a line anywhere.

> The US & 'brussels' in their arrogance have opened Pandora's box & ignored UN

They sure have. And I am looking forward to the result. I look forward to see South Ossetia re-joining Russia (if that is what the majority want) and Nagorno-Karabakh join up with Armenia - again, if that is what fair and open referendum will show.

> Any break-away group that wants to can use Kosovo as a precedent.

Yes. I hope so.

hans christian, as ever, i like the stories :)
what would your point be though?
kosovo is the heart of the serb nation. you guys will really have to accept that if you ever hope to understand what's currently happening in serbia and what's coming. it's also at the very core of our survival as a state in our modern sovereign borders, and can in no way be compared to a bunch of arctic or thereabouts islands somewhere.

and since you can and like to read :) here's a bit of a read for you, an example of how sundetenland was 'resolved', and what came after. a much more relevant example.

'The Nazis, together with their Sudeten German allies, demanded incorporation of the region into Nazi Germany to escape "oppression", in fact to destroy the Czechoslovak state. While the Czechoslovak government mobilized its troops, the Western powers urged it to comply with Germany believing that they could prevent or postpone a general war by appeasing Hitler.'

the gist of something called 'the munich agreement'. it's also called 'peace in our time'. you could also call it, 'long-term regional stability' if you like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_agreement

http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/ralph/workbook/ralprs36.htm

The precedent has been set therefore making it open the people of Republika Srpska to decide their future. There is nothing that the US and the EU can do but deny recognition which is the exact same situation as we have in Kosovo. Hypocrisy seems to have bitten the US and EU in the proverbial backside once again.
And to Jan Andersen,
The world that you seek to achieve where borders become obsolete is progressively trying to be achieved by the New World Order. So unless you are a member of the extremely elite I think it is in your best interest to oppose such ideology. National sovereignty is the basis of the world structure and always will be.

"How can you seperate such a small Bosnia into another 3 seperate countries? Bosnias ethnic or religious mix has been around since the 12 century. Bosnians speak the same language (accent), eat the same food, and have the same mentality. Its only recently that religion was introduced into politics in order to distabilize our harmonous lifes. I hope that people of Bosnia and Herzegovina will soon realize that more divisions will only create more gain for the already corrupt politicians and more hardship for the ordinary citizens.
(jin, 10 March 2008 10:19)

After all "bosnians spoke the same language (accent), eat the same food, and have the same mentality" even before the breakup of former Yugoslavia. So, what was the meaning of becoming a new country?

Bosnia is a mini-yugoslavia. so, if the old country could not survive, the same will happen with Bosnia. And, please, din't tell me that was just Milosevici's mistake. It's only a matter of time until the west , the so-called "international community" will realise that.

Jan Andersen:
"I want a world with no borders, a world were everyone is free to travel, live and work everywhere. A world where you judge people on how they behave, and not where they are born, who their parents were, or which Deity they worship. "

All laudible ideals to which all should aspire & I have no issue with you here.

Unfortunately, reality is different. People are competitive & selfish by nature, & if an advantage is seen, it is generally taken. Same goes for nations-states, only more so.

That's why we have laws.

And that's why we need the rule of law to also govern the behaviour of states - was the idea behind the League of Nations & the UN. Would be nice if there was a 'World Government' which regulated this - but the chances of this happening, in the short term at least, are minimal. 'World powers' will only surrender sovereignity if something 'nasty' happens - like WW's I & II.

Yes, UN hasn't been especially effective in preventing regional wars, but the framework is in place, & for the last 60yrs, have had no more global wars. And is effective in 'relief & aid' missions.

And UN is best thing we have at this point in time.

Blindly arguing the abrogation of the principles of the UN puts us back over 60yrs.

And blindly advocating granting the right of secession to any group that desires it is simplistic in the extreme. Such an idea ignores human nature & the lessons of history & will only lead to anarchy, war & death.

KS:
“Keep dreaming that you are going to get a self-proclaimed "republic" independent..everyone knows what happened in Srebrenica..you think the world is going to let a territory which was systematically killing all Bosnians in that region for you to be a majority become independent???”

I think YOU should wake up from your dream! Srebrenica, Ha!! Everyone knows what happened in Srebrenica?? Is that before or after Naser Orić as his muhajadin warriors slaughtered, mutilated, and decapitated 1000 Serbian villages surrounding Srebrenica?!

” The Muslim forces in Srebrenica were led by one Naser Oric who “had carried out murderous raids against nearby Serb villages”. Oric’s Muslim fighters beheaded the bodies of Serbs, reminding Serbs of the Ottoman occupation.”

And what about the 2004 Albanian riots in Kosovo, and death of thousands of Serbs and the desecration of monasteries since 99?? I guess that’s our fault too?!