Koštunica dismisses threats, awards over Kosovo

Somehow i believe kosovar albanians should get a new future in albania (the place seems like its empty of people
since all emigrated abroad),
give them ways to live and for serbs i think its fair to get both KiM and RS.

That would be the fair way for the west to do business and make money by investing in Serbia.

Everything else will not work.
So both Kosovo & Metohija as well as Rep. Srpska are vital in order to have a stable and prosperous Serb State.

If the west doesnt like that, then they can invest in marijuana and heroin and put their money in albania/kosovo.

The dominoes line up.....

Do the US and a "few" European states wish to act so flgrantly against international norms and laws and are they willing to be responsible for the "turbulance" that will occur form such an abrupt attack on UN and international law?

I would still rather see that the US folly was rationalised by the "Europeans" and a negotiated and compromise solution respecting international norms and laws were found and if time is required then surely time must be found then to bring such instability to the World as would be the case by the US folly of undermining UN resolutions.

Olf,

Serbia is internationally recognised as the sucessor state to Yugoslavia. Serbia took YU's seats in the UN, WTO, IMF, NAM, OSCE, ILO, WHO, INTERPOL and other international bodies. 1244 applies to the Republic of Serbia today as it to did to YU in 1999.

This is a polite way of saying Lajcek ruined the Dayton Peace Accord

In order sustain stability in the region, K&M needs to stay in Serbia, RS needs to be re-attached in a common state with Serbia, the Bosnian Federation needs to be placed under international supervision (for obvious reasons) AND, Croatia needs to offer, in the region of Srpska Krajina, the same type of autonomy offered by Serbia in the region of K&M.

The road to Kosovo's independence is all but inevitable. No human-made law, national or international, will be able to stop the march of 2 million people in their historical quest to make the final step towards complete national sovereignty. Besides, I don't know what variant of international law authorised the mass killings undertaken by what essentially was a democratically elected government of Milosevic. Once you bend the rules - and you bend them hard - don't expect the int'l law will come to your rescue. Plus, only a hopeless naive would believe that int'l law is written in stone: the Iraqi invasion was supposed to have rendered the UN completely irrelevant, including the mail pillars of int'l law. The fact seems to be that every once in awhile the 'rules' are bended and twisted...and as long as they dont make the rule, rather than the exception, the int'l system will survive easily. Besides, Kosovo is too small a global issue to have any realistic chance in the way the int'l law and system are regulated.

It seems like some have an appetite to entertain a static picture of events: a 'few' European states in fact represent the center of gravity within EU - the greatest founding members of it. Plus, these 'few' states are just the beginning: they're needed to throw their weight behind a new EU mission, and with those initial EU members disagreeing having the chance to abstain. However, think about it: a year after the new EU mission enters - following independence - it is highly likely that the rest of the EU member states will adopt a common stance when it comes to renewing the mandate of the mission. So, sure, it will take time to get full recognition by all member states, but the important thing to remember is that Kosovo's strategic goal is to get into the EU. And if this complete EU recognition comes even within 3 years of declaring independence, it is completely worth taking the step. The unilateral declaration and the subsequent individual recognition by member states will surely lead to the division of Kosovo. However, in the medium- to long-term, the north of Kosovo will be left out of EU much like northern Cyprus unless it explictly acknowledged Prishtina's national political authority over its area.

It seems to be meaningless to engage in debates over dates: no one knows when indepndence might come. Yet, even if worse came - that the West and Russia agreed on a common formula e.g. a neutral status - one thing is sure: that it will be a step towards independence. By this I mean, even if Western resolve over independence were weakened at this point, which is highly unlikely, one thing is sure to occur: the West will push to annul the legal link between Kosovo and Serbia. So, if a neutral status came to be pushed for a period of 3 years, and the Russians agreed to it, it would mean that Kosovo will be an int'l territory, without any legal link to Serbia. If this scenario came to fruition, it would mean that Kosovo will have absolutely no legal hurdles in its road of certain political and legal independence in the coming years.

That's just a scenario, which goes to show that however you look at it, Serbia has forever 'lost' Kosovo. If experience shows that mentioning dates is a fishy business, one thing I can say dat you mark my words that independence is coming.

"Serbia fights violence with justice, and this means that for the state of Serbia, according to the Serbian Constitution and the UN Charter, Kosovo will always be an integral part of the Serbian territory and that the Serbs in the province will have the same rights as all other Serbian citizens. To be more specific, unilateral independence does not exist and will never exist for Serbia," the prime minister said.

According to the law, Koštunica underlined, "Kosovo belongs only and solely to Serbia and no one can ever take it away from us."

"Since Serbia cannot be deprived of its right by force, because we do not accept that, we want to make it clear to everyone that Kosovo is Serbia and that threats and violence can only intensify the strongly-embedded historical consciousness of the Serbian nation that Kosovo cannot be snatched away from us," the prime minister concluded.

THAT is what we need. THAT is a true statesman. Kosovo belongs to Serbia. If the Americans want to give away some land to their stooges, then they should give a piece of the USA to them. Kosovo is not theirs to give.

1244 does not say that Serb parallel structures can operate in Kosova but they are ...
1244 does not mention Serbia but Yugoslavia ... Serbian citizens voted in favour of new constitution in a referendum that excluded K-Albanians.
now which part of 1244 to respect. The one that Kostunica favours.

Koštunica reminded that "it was not the first time that Serbia was faced with such a choice and that the answer had always been the same-"

He is conveniently forgetting the fact that although the answer might have been the same the results have varied greatly. This time he can go on giving this sort of answers forever but to little avail. Kosova is gone and those who are still puzzled by the K-Albanian insistence on independence will find some clarification on this next quotation by Kostunica: "Kosovo belongs only and solely to Serbia and no one can ever take it away from us."

Besides being a statement rooted in a state of denial, if that is his stance, why in the world should K-Albanians agree to anything Kostunica and his ilk are offering if they are regarded as nothing more than Serb property and the whole autonomy nonsense as a merciful gesture by a magnanimous Serbia? Forget it. Kosova is independent already, Serbia has no say in its future anymore than neighbors influence other neighbors and Kostunica can play Czar Lazar to the end of his days for all we Albanians care; it won't change a thing.

Nicely said Mr Kostunica, there is nothing to add. Serbia must keep strong ties with Srpska and have to invest in Srpska equally as in Serbia. Srpska should feel Serbia as its own state. I hope Srpska will join Serbia one day and function as one state.

Every day this funny guys comes out with statement and arguments that justify independence of Kosovo.

Thank you Mr. Koshtunica, for promoting independence. You have just been confirming what albanians have been sayin all along: ' Serbia (should i say its politicians) has hardly changed since Milosevic times in regards to Kosovo'.

Keep doing what you are doing.

teni wrote:
"Kosova is independent already, Serbia has no say in its future anymore than neighbors influence other neighbors"..

I'll rewrite that...

Serbia is decentralized, and slowly becoming democratic..
That's why Kosovo "feels" independent..
That's what a democratic Serbia offers..

As far as neighbours are concerned, i'd hate to think what Serbia offers as an unfriendly neighbour.

I prefer the first scenario.

Let's just say, i'm glad i don't live in YOUR neighbourhood...

To all the Albanian posters on these forums...
If your so confident of independence.....

WHY...WHY do you come to B92 and profess it to liberal minded Serbs who happen to read it here?
Congratulations, now take your message to 8 million+ Serbs that AREN'T so liberal minded..

If you're so confident, why waste your energy on these boards??
Perhaps you should use that positive energy, and harness it to your independence......Rather than typing from a comfy chair and glorifying your symbolism..

(Which.. by the way is bought very cheaply on Ebay these days)...

Johny,

"If I remember correctly you denied 2 million of them the right to vote for their constitution."

- funney that I thought there was only 1.45 million elegible to vote in Serbia's province recently - including the 180,00 Serbs (including those displaced/refugees) and what of the Roma and other non-Albanians who have a right to vote. Oh and by the way al registered voters in Serbia's province were more than welcome to vote for the consitution with tens of thousands ensuring they did!

To the rest of the illegal dreamers,

Will all those who are dreaming in the US false promise wake up to the non event of the century come the 11th Decemeber 2007 (being explicit on the year) and accept the state you are in and realise that false promises can never be delievered not even from Uncle Sam ?

Or will you dream up a new moveable deadline of illegal declarations - April 2008 perhaps ? Sept 2008 ? and then Dec 20008 etc etc....

This man (Kostunica) is not bad. A Serb at heart, a true statesman, sticks to his pincipals, and cannot be swayed nor bought out. We need more politicians like him!!

Does this mean that as a "successor" of YU in 1999 Serbia should have the right to claim all the other provinces that were part of YU? (Nobody,"

No, it means that Serbia should be forced to pay damages for the murders and crimes against humanity they perpetrated and conpired against the former 'provinces and republics" of yu, of which they are the inheritors.

"Serbia fights violence with justice" Give us one example when whas the last time "Serbia fights violence with justice" ???

Teni,
Correct

Partizan/ Grobare

Lets be real he, if it wasn’t for Russia 1244 would have been forgotten by now. Problem lies with Russia not 1244. 1244 is just a resolution adopted by UN SC nothing else. UN are used to change resolutions day in day out.
Problems created to K-Serbs should be addressed to Russia. Russia will never offer more than Ahtisaari plan to K-Serbs.
However, that problems seems to be overcome now and Kosova is moving ahead.

kostunica, chavez, putin, ahmedinejad, UNITE!

KiM should & will remain within the Serbian rule based on the simple premise of what's right is right!

KiM is as holy to us as Jerusalem is to the Jews!

Matthew,

I agree with you almost wholeheartedly, but unfortunately, utopias are not always a reality. Of course I would love to live and be proud of being from the Balkans, but we have to face reality.

Whether Kosovars would trade Serbia to live under the "throne" of Germany, France and UK - given the context, it's really a no brainer - I would happily choose to live under the throne of the heart of EU than Serbia. No hard feelings, but unless people have been under a rock for the past twenty-or-so-years, I wouldn't say it's unwarranted or the least bit surprising. Serbia has had the chance to integrate K. Albanians since the early 1900's - if almost a century is not enough, then from now till the end of the universe doesn't give much hope for change.

For two people to move on and reconcile, there needs to be some space in between them. It was Serbia that unleashed a state sponsored extermination campaign against it's "cradle" - I will skip on the excruciating detail, since you seem to be relatively well informed about the events on the ground. Now I would also assume that you would agree that Serbia and Kosova/o should part ways (whether in whole, or in part). Since Serbia is being a major pain in the arse about all of this, K. Albanians are being forced to choose in between being ruled either by EU/US or Serbia - again, this is a no brainer.

As for the political atmosphere in Serbia, it would be naive to say that things have changed too drastically and things are all honky dory. For instance, if a politician in the Parliament uses racial slurs ("Gypsy mentality"), and you have a party member which was the winner of last elections saying that "Shiptar-separatists terrorists" should be sent back to Albania, all in plain public view and on record, I am sure any semi-intelligent person would be appalled by all of this. So what happened to those aforementioned "politicians" for being so blunt in letting their radical, inflammatory and just plain degrading opinions be known in what is supposed to be a mini-heaven for multi-ethnicity and respect? Oh, right, not even a slap in the wrist. Do you honestly expect more than two million people to live under these kind of politicians that were democratically elected by Serbs themselves? I am sorry, but I don't buy that Serbia has changed much with its former self, which is regrettable, because it is holding back and poisoning the younger generation from moving forward and becoming a powerhouse of the Balkans.


If Serbia REALLY cared for the people living in Kosova/o, then it would've done things a bit differently than the approaches it has done till now. Leaving the past as the past, what it could do in the better part of this decade would've been the following;

1) Apologize what the government has done to Albanians during the 98-99 war - this would've gone a LONG way.
2) Change the constitution - make Serbian and Albanian official languages of Serbia.
3) Change the flag to reflect the multi-ethnicity of the country
4) Pay for the damages done to the property in Kosova/o
5) Not tolerate inflammatory and racist comments of politicians - come on now, this shouldn't even be pointed out
6) Give Kosova/o the same level of autonomy like that of a state within a (con)federation/union - think of Belgium in between the Flanders and Walloons or Republic of Srpska (well, Kosova/o wouldn't be called "Republika e Shqiptarëve" - translation; "Republic of Albanians" -- I am hoping you see where I am getting with this in conjunction with "Republika Srpska" and Bosnia).

The above is no an exhaustive list by any stretch of the imagination, but it would've been a great starting point for Serbia.


It is worth noting that I am not saying that that is what I would outright and readily accept - independence is a much better option for us K. Albanians (what ethnic group wouldn't want to be free?), but the above would give us a BIG run for our money in coming up with a good argument in support for our aspirations for independence from Serbia, taking into considerations as to what the Serb government was giving in and that they wanted to do to make things right.


Just like you dear Matthew, I sincerely wish that our subtle differences would not overshadow on what we have so much in common. I look forward to the day were all is just a past in the history books where the younger generations looks at with mild disgust of all irrationality and non-nonsensical chain of events. But until we make peace and part ways in order to heal what we've been through, then I am afraid that that bright aforementioned future looks more bleak than ever.

I think that parallel with Munich agreement is quite appropriate. What West desperately tries to do is gain wider support in Islamic world. Kosovo is seen in that calculation. Well according to some well informed sources the tide of Islam (on which Albanians are presently riding and gaining support in the West) will not last significantly long. I think that Serbia must keep its faith in the "day after" - when the tide will take opposite direction. Serbia should not yield to the pressure of the West. Concessions won't pay off to Serbia. World should radically change in he foreseeable future - Serbia should be prepared to wait. Then the real troublemakers will be more clearly exposed.

It appears that the way Serbian politicians remain in power (i.e. Milosevic, Kostunica et. al.) is to stir up trouble (i.e. Kosovo, RS).
In addition, aligning with Russia instead of the West is a useless, meaningless waste of time.

“1244 does not say that Serb parallel structures can operate in Kosova but they are ...
1244 does not mention Serbia but Yugoslavia (Olf, 22 November 2007 16:39)”

“Does this mean that as a "successor" of YU in 1999 Serbia should have the right to claim all the other provinces that were part of YU?
(Nobody, 22 November 2007 19:30)”

“No, it means that Serbia should be forced to pay damages for the murders and crimes against humanity they perpetrated and conpired against the former 'provinces and republics" of yu, of which they are the inheritors.
(dramon, 22 November 2007 19:53)”

Look guys, it’s not a hard concept to fathom.

The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Tito’s Yugoslavia) ceased to be, nobody got their UN seat, it was abolished.

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had to apply for a new seat in the UN, just like Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia etc. Hence FRY was unable to sue the US for War Crimes, since they didn’t exist in the UN at the time, which is a BS excuse if you ask me, since they were liable for war crimes committed in the same time frame.

When FRY changed its name to the Union of Serbia and Montenegro, they kept their UN seat. This makes sense, without being able to transfer seats, neither China nor Russia would have a seat on the security council and the UN would have gone the way of the League of Nations.

If you recall, the International Community did NOT want Montenegro to leave the Union. In the Constitution, which was mediated by the International Community (Read: “The West”) it stated that if Serbia or Montenegro desired to leave the Union, the remaining state would inherit the UN seat. If both mutually agreed to dissolve the country, neither would get the seat. These conditions were encouraged by the International Community, the “friends” of Albanians.

So, Montenegro had to apply for a new seat, Serbia did not.

The time for claiming Serbia could not retain that seat has past. Had you raised those objections in 2006 or when the constitution was being debated, it might have been a possibility, but I don’t China and Russia would have gone along with that.

“Once you bend the rules - and you bend them hard - don't expect the int'l law will come to your rescue. (C, 22 November 2007 15:05)”

C, that is like telling a criminal that because you committed a crime, the laws protecting your rights (right to trial, an attorney, etc) shouldn’t apply either.

Legally it’s a nonsense argument and that kind of twisted logic is employed far too often in the Balkans to justify committing war crimes against the “other side”. Far too often I hear “they did it to us” as justification for doing the exact same thing to the other side. A crime is still a crime.

Should Serbia be punished for the crimes committed? Most certainly. However, you seem to be making the argument that crimes committed BEFORE the agreement that led to UNSC 1244 somehow inviolate it AFTER the fact. The reality is at the time UNSC 1244 was signed, the crimes attributed to Serbia were grossly exaggerated (eg hundred of thousands of Albanians were supposedly murdered BEFORE the start of the NATO bombing).

So, I think I can safely say that the conditions set out in UNSC 1244 are overly harsh and if anything, ought to be reduced, since it turns out the crimes Serbia committed were not as severe as previously claimed.

Olf, the UNSC 1244 does not mention “parallel” institutions because it was NOT an agreement two countries. Serbia was intended to retain its institutions in Kosovo INCLUDING their military. Serbia hasn’t even been able to fully implement the provisions of UNSC 1244 in those areas under Serbian control. That is the injustice, not that Serbia retains some form of control in those areas.

Personally, I support the Right to Self Determination. I think all Albanians and all Serbs should have the right to live in a single country, ESPECIALLY if we both join the EU. It is inherently UNDEMOCRATIC to artificially reduce the political weight of both of these European people’s in the EU by dividing them among the various countries in the region. In the US this is called Gerrymandering and it’s illegal.

Do you want a truly democratic Europe or merely a dictatorship under Germany, France and the UK? You agree with them now because they are supporting your interests, but what about when their desires go against your interests? Do you not think the wishes of the lesser developed countries deserve attention?

Do you really want to trade living under Serbia for living under Germany? There is a better way.

We have the attention of the International Community at this time, why are we not working together to find a solution that benefits both our people, regardless of where we live?

Do you not see that it’s in the interest of the Western European countries to keep the Balkans divided and unable to form their own political block?

Do you not see that we have far more in common than divides us?

Yes, we have some issues to work out, and crimes have been committed, but how long must this hatred go on?

If you truly want to hate one another, why bother joining the EU? Are we both Europeans or are we natural enemies?

What do you want for the future of your children and grandchildren? The same hatred, war and bloodshed that has plagued all of us for so long? Do you really want to destroy the future of the EU?

Continue on this path, and the best either of us can hope for is menial jobs in the service industry in Western European countries. Our young will leave for “better” opportunities elsewhere serving the elite and rich in Western Europe, and our old will live in squalor, unloved and forgotten.

WAKE UP AND USE YOUR HEADS!

Noel,

Obviously I support partition as I support the Right to Self Determination. My views are 100% consistent regardless of ethnicity.

Do you support the Right to Self Determination in Bosnia and Krajina? Or only in Kosovo?

Does full independence for Kosovo do anything to solve the regional problems in other similar areas? Or is it merely a quick fix until the political dynamics change again?

"Kosovo will always be an integral part of the Serbian territory and that the Serbs in the province will have the same rights as all other Serbian citizens."

Does that mean that all inhabitants in the province have the right to vote also Mr. Kostunica. If I remember correctly you denied 2 million of them the right to vote for their constitution. Yes that constitution that is so sacred to you, institutionalized a second class of citizens; that of those who will have no say in your future vision of Kosovo/a.
If that is your justice Mr. Kostunica we, those who you denied the right to vote, will cut you and Serbia out of our lives once and forever and build a state where the individual decides whether to vote or not, not some Albanophobe residing in government buildings in Belgrade.

"Kosovo belongs only and solely to Serbia and no one can ever take it away from us."

Koshtunica, you are King Nothing! Your abilities to do anything at all to stop Kosova's independence are less than zero. Your posturing will only add to your ultimate humiliation.

Russia is not a problem, Russia is the solution.

Just another pathetic and disgusting statement.

Serbia is internationally recognised as the sucessor state to Yugoslavia. Serbia took YU's seats in the UN, WTO, IMF, NAM, OSCE, ILO, WHO, INTERPOL and other international bodies. 1244 applies to the Republic of Serbia today as it to did to YU in 1999.
Partizan,

Does this mean that as a "successor" of YU in 1999 Serbia should have the right to claim all the other provinces that were part of YU?

Mathew, as a moderate Serb all you have to do is accept the friendship treaty offered by Kosovars and recognise the independence of Kosovo. Otherwise, everything you say is nonsensical.

Nobody pays anymore attention to what this guy says. His picture holding proudly a AK-47 during the Kosova Crisiss is still a fresh reminder of his past and his present attitude.

"Do you support the Right to Self Determination in Bosnia and Krajina? Or only in Kosovo? "

Sure Matthew, we support it. Now, can we get our independence? Afterwards, perhaps will be your turn.

Albanians living in Kosvo were not welcomed neither were listed in voter lists when the voting for new constitution in Serbia took place. therefore statement above sayign Albanians were welcomed to vote is to right. Bosnia and RS is END STORY. History clock does not walk backwards. Kosovo/a is story that happens NOW and it is still ongoing. Nobody can decide for people living in Kosovo as it happened several times before. It is Albanians and their elected representatives ONLY and it is ONLY them to decide about them selfs. Int community will just make sure whatever is agreeg / achieved will be respected. And with regards to dead line's, there is not rush. There are no VJ in Kosovo, theer are no special trained S Police (trained against Albanians) in Kosovo, there are no giandermeria in Kosovo... You want to keep the situation ongoing?!!! Do it until most of Serbian citizens will be tired of investing their money and their energy and their life for something that is GONE... And that wil happen very soon I believe. Otherwise I dont remember when last time Serbian paramilitary forces escorted by Serbian Military and Police Units eneterd area where I live (as they did before 1999)... So, why to rush? As long as they are outside of Kosovo borders I dont care... Live the life in peace. You want to live with me you are more than welcome. You dont want to live with me? You dont have too. It is a free country and every citizen of Ksovo can do his / her choice. To be influenced by belgrade and SUFFER or be part of new reality and start deciding for your life... I HAVE MADE MY CHOICE... And YOU?!!!

Jetoni,

I agree taking steps 1-6 which you outline would have been constructive for both sides and might have “saved” Kosovo, something I feel is worth any sacrifice. In fact, I pretty much agree with everything you said, even the Utopia comment.

Alas, there’s not much we little folk can really accomplish but I try to foster understanding on an individual level. Things seem bleak, but its really much better than 10 years ago. I still believe there won’t be violence, but I agree the whole region is on edge and it could result in bloodshed easily.

“Sure Matthew, we support it. Now, can we get our independence? Afterwards, perhaps will be your turn.
(miri, 23 November 2007 04:04)”

Miri, are you coming out in support of partition? That would be a great start, then we can support one another in our quest for equal representation for our populations in the EU. Start thinking long term. Without partition and unsupervised independence, you run the risk of ending up with Bosnia’s fate as a pseudo country in permanent limbo.

I actually support a form of the “neutral” compromise for now. Focus on those aspects and conditions that will be true regardless of whether the end result is autonomy or independence. Get the economy going. Allow the citizens to have a normal life and progress.

"Miri, are you coming out in support of partition? That would be a great start, then we can support one another in our quest for equal representation for our populations in the EU."

I have said before the partition wouldn't be such a bad deal. North of Kosova will be only trouble (at least for the first decade after independence) for Kosova. I am sure if Serbia puts partition forwards as an option, it has good chances to get it, but here we are dealing again with Serbian/Albanian/Balkan's mentality, all or nothing. I am sincerely suprised how serb politicians don't understand that partition is their best chance. They will never get the whole of Kosova. Unless they are literally thinking for all or nothing.

One more thing, the time is running out for Serbia and I guess it will be left with nothing.

"funney that I thought there was only 1.45 million elegible to vote in Serbia's province recently - including the 180,00 Serbs (including those displaced/refugees) and what of the Roma and other non-Albanians who have a right to vote. Oh and by the way al registered voters in Serbia's province were more than welcome to vote for the consitution with tens of thousands ensuring they did!"

Princip I would recommend you to stop wearing the mask of a moderate and always talk like you talk in the quote above. That is the real you.
It is sad and tragic that you are trying to play the numbers and twist world-wide known facts, when the issue here is very serious.
The fact is that the Serbian government eliminated from the voting list every eligible Albanian, when the vote for the constitution was held.
No Albanian who was eligible to vote, could vote for the Serbian constitution because the Serbian government banned them. This issue is a very serious issue.
As an Albanian I cannot help but think the following. Why on earth would I want to be an obedient subject of the state of Serbia where they legitimize and take away my most precious right that every democratic state has, and that is the right to vote. If they take away this right, in front of the watchful eyes of the international community, how many other rights will they take away when Serbia is not being observed?
Serbia with that act created two classes of citizens for the future vision of the modern Serbian state. You have the Serbs who decide with their vote, and the Albanians as second class citizens who cannot vote and have to accept what Serbians decide for them.
Then it is very logical for me to fight for my own state where I can vote, and I would pick that every single time, even if it means poverty. At least I will have a say in the affairs of my state and will not feel prejudiced and so worthless that my opinion does not deserve a vote.

1244 does not say that Serb parallel structures can operate in Kosova but they are ...
1244 does not mention Serbia but Yugoslavia ... Serbian citizens voted in favour of new constitution in a referendum that excluded K-Albanians.
now which part of 1244 to respect. The one that Kostunica favours.

The road to Kosovo's independence is all but inevitable. No human-made law, national or international, will be able to stop the march of 2 million people in their historical quest to make the final step towards complete national sovereignty. Besides, I don't know what variant of international law authorised the mass killings undertaken by what essentially was a democratically elected government of Milosevic. Once you bend the rules - and you bend them hard - don't expect the int'l law will come to your rescue. Plus, only a hopeless naive would believe that int'l law is written in stone: the Iraqi invasion was supposed to have rendered the UN completely irrelevant, including the mail pillars of int'l law. The fact seems to be that every once in awhile the 'rules' are bended and twisted...and as long as they dont make the rule, rather than the exception, the int'l system will survive easily. Besides, Kosovo is too small a global issue to have any realistic chance in the way the int'l law and system are regulated.

It seems like some have an appetite to entertain a static picture of events: a 'few' European states in fact represent the center of gravity within EU - the greatest founding members of it. Plus, these 'few' states are just the beginning: they're needed to throw their weight behind a new EU mission, and with those initial EU members disagreeing having the chance to abstain. However, think about it: a year after the new EU mission enters - following independence - it is highly likely that the rest of the EU member states will adopt a common stance when it comes to renewing the mandate of the mission. So, sure, it will take time to get full recognition by all member states, but the important thing to remember is that Kosovo's strategic goal is to get into the EU. And if this complete EU recognition comes even within 3 years of declaring independence, it is completely worth taking the step. The unilateral declaration and the subsequent individual recognition by member states will surely lead to the division of Kosovo. However, in the medium- to long-term, the north of Kosovo will be left out of EU much like northern Cyprus unless it explictly acknowledged Prishtina's national political authority over its area.

It seems to be meaningless to engage in debates over dates: no one knows when indepndence might come. Yet, even if worse came - that the West and Russia agreed on a common formula e.g. a neutral status - one thing is sure: that it will be a step towards independence. By this I mean, even if Western resolve over independence were weakened at this point, which is highly unlikely, one thing is sure to occur: the West will push to annul the legal link between Kosovo and Serbia. So, if a neutral status came to be pushed for a period of 3 years, and the Russians agreed to it, it would mean that Kosovo will be an int'l territory, without any legal link to Serbia. If this scenario came to fruition, it would mean that Kosovo will have absolutely no legal hurdles in its road of certain political and legal independence in the coming years.

That's just a scenario, which goes to show that however you look at it, Serbia has forever 'lost' Kosovo. If experience shows that mentioning dates is a fishy business, one thing I can say dat you mark my words that independence is coming.

Koštunica reminded that "it was not the first time that Serbia was faced with such a choice and that the answer had always been the same-"

He is conveniently forgetting the fact that although the answer might have been the same the results have varied greatly. This time he can go on giving this sort of answers forever but to little avail. Kosova is gone and those who are still puzzled by the K-Albanian insistence on independence will find some clarification on this next quotation by Kostunica: "Kosovo belongs only and solely to Serbia and no one can ever take it away from us."

Besides being a statement rooted in a state of denial, if that is his stance, why in the world should K-Albanians agree to anything Kostunica and his ilk are offering if they are regarded as nothing more than Serb property and the whole autonomy nonsense as a merciful gesture by a magnanimous Serbia? Forget it. Kosova is independent already, Serbia has no say in its future anymore than neighbors influence other neighbors and Kostunica can play Czar Lazar to the end of his days for all we Albanians care; it won't change a thing.

Somehow i believe kosovar albanians should get a new future in albania (the place seems like its empty of people
since all emigrated abroad),
give them ways to live and for serbs i think its fair to get both KiM and RS.

That would be the fair way for the west to do business and make money by investing in Serbia.

Everything else will not work.
So both Kosovo & Metohija as well as Rep. Srpska are vital in order to have a stable and prosperous Serb State.

If the west doesnt like that, then they can invest in marijuana and heroin and put their money in albania/kosovo.

Just another pathetic and disgusting statement.

Nicely said Mr Kostunica, there is nothing to add. Serbia must keep strong ties with Srpska and have to invest in Srpska equally as in Serbia. Srpska should feel Serbia as its own state. I hope Srpska will join Serbia one day and function as one state.

Teni,
Correct

Partizan/ Grobare

Lets be real he, if it wasn’t for Russia 1244 would have been forgotten by now. Problem lies with Russia not 1244. 1244 is just a resolution adopted by UN SC nothing else. UN are used to change resolutions day in day out.
Problems created to K-Serbs should be addressed to Russia. Russia will never offer more than Ahtisaari plan to K-Serbs.
However, that problems seems to be overcome now and Kosova is moving ahead.

It appears that the way Serbian politicians remain in power (i.e. Milosevic, Kostunica et. al.) is to stir up trouble (i.e. Kosovo, RS).
In addition, aligning with Russia instead of the West is a useless, meaningless waste of time.

kostunica, chavez, putin, ahmedinejad, UNITE!

Does this mean that as a "successor" of YU in 1999 Serbia should have the right to claim all the other provinces that were part of YU? (Nobody,"

No, it means that Serbia should be forced to pay damages for the murders and crimes against humanity they perpetrated and conpired against the former 'provinces and republics" of yu, of which they are the inheritors.

"Serbia fights violence with justice" Give us one example when whas the last time "Serbia fights violence with justice" ???

"Do you support the Right to Self Determination in Bosnia and Krajina? Or only in Kosovo? "

Sure Matthew, we support it. Now, can we get our independence? Afterwards, perhaps will be your turn.

The dominoes line up.....

Do the US and a "few" European states wish to act so flgrantly against international norms and laws and are they willing to be responsible for the "turbulance" that will occur form such an abrupt attack on UN and international law?

I would still rather see that the US folly was rationalised by the "Europeans" and a negotiated and compromise solution respecting international norms and laws were found and if time is required then surely time must be found then to bring such instability to the World as would be the case by the US folly of undermining UN resolutions.

Every day this funny guys comes out with statement and arguments that justify independence of Kosovo.

Thank you Mr. Koshtunica, for promoting independence. You have just been confirming what albanians have been sayin all along: ' Serbia (should i say its politicians) has hardly changed since Milosevic times in regards to Kosovo'.

Keep doing what you are doing.

Serbia is internationally recognised as the sucessor state to Yugoslavia. Serbia took YU's seats in the UN, WTO, IMF, NAM, OSCE, ILO, WHO, INTERPOL and other international bodies. 1244 applies to the Republic of Serbia today as it to did to YU in 1999.
Partizan,

Does this mean that as a "successor" of YU in 1999 Serbia should have the right to claim all the other provinces that were part of YU?

"Kosovo will always be an integral part of the Serbian territory and that the Serbs in the province will have the same rights as all other Serbian citizens."

Does that mean that all inhabitants in the province have the right to vote also Mr. Kostunica. If I remember correctly you denied 2 million of them the right to vote for their constitution. Yes that constitution that is so sacred to you, institutionalized a second class of citizens; that of those who will have no say in your future vision of Kosovo/a.
If that is your justice Mr. Kostunica we, those who you denied the right to vote, will cut you and Serbia out of our lives once and forever and build a state where the individual decides whether to vote or not, not some Albanophobe residing in government buildings in Belgrade.

"Kosovo belongs only and solely to Serbia and no one can ever take it away from us."

Koshtunica, you are King Nothing! Your abilities to do anything at all to stop Kosova's independence are less than zero. Your posturing will only add to your ultimate humiliation.

Mathew, as a moderate Serb all you have to do is accept the friendship treaty offered by Kosovars and recognise the independence of Kosovo. Otherwise, everything you say is nonsensical.

Nobody pays anymore attention to what this guy says. His picture holding proudly a AK-47 during the Kosova Crisiss is still a fresh reminder of his past and his present attitude.

Matthew,

I agree with you almost wholeheartedly, but unfortunately, utopias are not always a reality. Of course I would love to live and be proud of being from the Balkans, but we have to face reality.

Whether Kosovars would trade Serbia to live under the "throne" of Germany, France and UK - given the context, it's really a no brainer - I would happily choose to live under the throne of the heart of EU than Serbia. No hard feelings, but unless people have been under a rock for the past twenty-or-so-years, I wouldn't say it's unwarranted or the least bit surprising. Serbia has had the chance to integrate K. Albanians since the early 1900's - if almost a century is not enough, then from now till the end of the universe doesn't give much hope for change.

For two people to move on and reconcile, there needs to be some space in between them. It was Serbia that unleashed a state sponsored extermination campaign against it's "cradle" - I will skip on the excruciating detail, since you seem to be relatively well informed about the events on the ground. Now I would also assume that you would agree that Serbia and Kosova/o should part ways (whether in whole, or in part). Since Serbia is being a major pain in the arse about all of this, K. Albanians are being forced to choose in between being ruled either by EU/US or Serbia - again, this is a no brainer.

As for the political atmosphere in Serbia, it would be naive to say that things have changed too drastically and things are all honky dory. For instance, if a politician in the Parliament uses racial slurs ("Gypsy mentality"), and you have a party member which was the winner of last elections saying that "Shiptar-separatists terrorists" should be sent back to Albania, all in plain public view and on record, I am sure any semi-intelligent person would be appalled by all of this. So what happened to those aforementioned "politicians" for being so blunt in letting their radical, inflammatory and just plain degrading opinions be known in what is supposed to be a mini-heaven for multi-ethnicity and respect? Oh, right, not even a slap in the wrist. Do you honestly expect more than two million people to live under these kind of politicians that were democratically elected by Serbs themselves? I am sorry, but I don't buy that Serbia has changed much with its former self, which is regrettable, because it is holding back and poisoning the younger generation from moving forward and becoming a powerhouse of the Balkans.


If Serbia REALLY cared for the people living in Kosova/o, then it would've done things a bit differently than the approaches it has done till now. Leaving the past as the past, what it could do in the better part of this decade would've been the following;

1) Apologize what the government has done to Albanians during the 98-99 war - this would've gone a LONG way.
2) Change the constitution - make Serbian and Albanian official languages of Serbia.
3) Change the flag to reflect the multi-ethnicity of the country
4) Pay for the damages done to the property in Kosova/o
5) Not tolerate inflammatory and racist comments of politicians - come on now, this shouldn't even be pointed out
6) Give Kosova/o the same level of autonomy like that of a state within a (con)federation/union - think of Belgium in between the Flanders and Walloons or Republic of Srpska (well, Kosova/o wouldn't be called "Republika e Shqiptarëve" - translation; "Republic of Albanians" -- I am hoping you see where I am getting with this in conjunction with "Republika Srpska" and Bosnia).

The above is no an exhaustive list by any stretch of the imagination, but it would've been a great starting point for Serbia.


It is worth noting that I am not saying that that is what I would outright and readily accept - independence is a much better option for us K. Albanians (what ethnic group wouldn't want to be free?), but the above would give us a BIG run for our money in coming up with a good argument in support for our aspirations for independence from Serbia, taking into considerations as to what the Serb government was giving in and that they wanted to do to make things right.


Just like you dear Matthew, I sincerely wish that our subtle differences would not overshadow on what we have so much in common. I look forward to the day were all is just a past in the history books where the younger generations looks at with mild disgust of all irrationality and non-nonsensical chain of events. But until we make peace and part ways in order to heal what we've been through, then I am afraid that that bright aforementioned future looks more bleak than ever.

This is a polite way of saying Lajcek ruined the Dayton Peace Accord

Olf,

Serbia is internationally recognised as the sucessor state to Yugoslavia. Serbia took YU's seats in the UN, WTO, IMF, NAM, OSCE, ILO, WHO, INTERPOL and other international bodies. 1244 applies to the Republic of Serbia today as it to did to YU in 1999.

teni wrote:
"Kosova is independent already, Serbia has no say in its future anymore than neighbors influence other neighbors"..

I'll rewrite that...

Serbia is decentralized, and slowly becoming democratic..
That's why Kosovo "feels" independent..
That's what a democratic Serbia offers..

As far as neighbours are concerned, i'd hate to think what Serbia offers as an unfriendly neighbour.

I prefer the first scenario.

Let's just say, i'm glad i don't live in YOUR neighbourhood...

To all the Albanian posters on these forums...
If your so confident of independence.....

WHY...WHY do you come to B92 and profess it to liberal minded Serbs who happen to read it here?
Congratulations, now take your message to 8 million+ Serbs that AREN'T so liberal minded..

If you're so confident, why waste your energy on these boards??
Perhaps you should use that positive energy, and harness it to your independence......Rather than typing from a comfy chair and glorifying your symbolism..

(Which.. by the way is bought very cheaply on Ebay these days)...

"Serbia fights violence with justice, and this means that for the state of Serbia, according to the Serbian Constitution and the UN Charter, Kosovo will always be an integral part of the Serbian territory and that the Serbs in the province will have the same rights as all other Serbian citizens. To be more specific, unilateral independence does not exist and will never exist for Serbia," the prime minister said.

According to the law, Koštunica underlined, "Kosovo belongs only and solely to Serbia and no one can ever take it away from us."

"Since Serbia cannot be deprived of its right by force, because we do not accept that, we want to make it clear to everyone that Kosovo is Serbia and that threats and violence can only intensify the strongly-embedded historical consciousness of the Serbian nation that Kosovo cannot be snatched away from us," the prime minister concluded.

THAT is what we need. THAT is a true statesman. Kosovo belongs to Serbia. If the Americans want to give away some land to their stooges, then they should give a piece of the USA to them. Kosovo is not theirs to give.

In order sustain stability in the region, K&M needs to stay in Serbia, RS needs to be re-attached in a common state with Serbia, the Bosnian Federation needs to be placed under international supervision (for obvious reasons) AND, Croatia needs to offer, in the region of Srpska Krajina, the same type of autonomy offered by Serbia in the region of K&M.

Albanians living in Kosvo were not welcomed neither were listed in voter lists when the voting for new constitution in Serbia took place. therefore statement above sayign Albanians were welcomed to vote is to right. Bosnia and RS is END STORY. History clock does not walk backwards. Kosovo/a is story that happens NOW and it is still ongoing. Nobody can decide for people living in Kosovo as it happened several times before. It is Albanians and their elected representatives ONLY and it is ONLY them to decide about them selfs. Int community will just make sure whatever is agreeg / achieved will be respected. And with regards to dead line's, there is not rush. There are no VJ in Kosovo, theer are no special trained S Police (trained against Albanians) in Kosovo, there are no giandermeria in Kosovo... You want to keep the situation ongoing?!!! Do it until most of Serbian citizens will be tired of investing their money and their energy and their life for something that is GONE... And that wil happen very soon I believe. Otherwise I dont remember when last time Serbian paramilitary forces escorted by Serbian Military and Police Units eneterd area where I live (as they did before 1999)... So, why to rush? As long as they are outside of Kosovo borders I dont care... Live the life in peace. You want to live with me you are more than welcome. You dont want to live with me? You dont have too. It is a free country and every citizen of Ksovo can do his / her choice. To be influenced by belgrade and SUFFER or be part of new reality and start deciding for your life... I HAVE MADE MY CHOICE... And YOU?!!!

"funney that I thought there was only 1.45 million elegible to vote in Serbia's province recently - including the 180,00 Serbs (including those displaced/refugees) and what of the Roma and other non-Albanians who have a right to vote. Oh and by the way al registered voters in Serbia's province were more than welcome to vote for the consitution with tens of thousands ensuring they did!"

Princip I would recommend you to stop wearing the mask of a moderate and always talk like you talk in the quote above. That is the real you.
It is sad and tragic that you are trying to play the numbers and twist world-wide known facts, when the issue here is very serious.
The fact is that the Serbian government eliminated from the voting list every eligible Albanian, when the vote for the constitution was held.
No Albanian who was eligible to vote, could vote for the Serbian constitution because the Serbian government banned them. This issue is a very serious issue.
As an Albanian I cannot help but think the following. Why on earth would I want to be an obedient subject of the state of Serbia where they legitimize and take away my most precious right that every democratic state has, and that is the right to vote. If they take away this right, in front of the watchful eyes of the international community, how many other rights will they take away when Serbia is not being observed?
Serbia with that act created two classes of citizens for the future vision of the modern Serbian state. You have the Serbs who decide with their vote, and the Albanians as second class citizens who cannot vote and have to accept what Serbians decide for them.
Then it is very logical for me to fight for my own state where I can vote, and I would pick that every single time, even if it means poverty. At least I will have a say in the affairs of my state and will not feel prejudiced and so worthless that my opinion does not deserve a vote.

"Miri, are you coming out in support of partition? That would be a great start, then we can support one another in our quest for equal representation for our populations in the EU."

I have said before the partition wouldn't be such a bad deal. North of Kosova will be only trouble (at least for the first decade after independence) for Kosova. I am sure if Serbia puts partition forwards as an option, it has good chances to get it, but here we are dealing again with Serbian/Albanian/Balkan's mentality, all or nothing. I am sincerely suprised how serb politicians don't understand that partition is their best chance. They will never get the whole of Kosova. Unless they are literally thinking for all or nothing.

One more thing, the time is running out for Serbia and I guess it will be left with nothing.

Johny,

"If I remember correctly you denied 2 million of them the right to vote for their constitution."

- funney that I thought there was only 1.45 million elegible to vote in Serbia's province recently - including the 180,00 Serbs (including those displaced/refugees) and what of the Roma and other non-Albanians who have a right to vote. Oh and by the way al registered voters in Serbia's province were more than welcome to vote for the consitution with tens of thousands ensuring they did!

To the rest of the illegal dreamers,

Will all those who are dreaming in the US false promise wake up to the non event of the century come the 11th Decemeber 2007 (being explicit on the year) and accept the state you are in and realise that false promises can never be delievered not even from Uncle Sam ?

Or will you dream up a new moveable deadline of illegal declarations - April 2008 perhaps ? Sept 2008 ? and then Dec 20008 etc etc....

“1244 does not say that Serb parallel structures can operate in Kosova but they are ...
1244 does not mention Serbia but Yugoslavia (Olf, 22 November 2007 16:39)”

“Does this mean that as a "successor" of YU in 1999 Serbia should have the right to claim all the other provinces that were part of YU?
(Nobody, 22 November 2007 19:30)”

“No, it means that Serbia should be forced to pay damages for the murders and crimes against humanity they perpetrated and conpired against the former 'provinces and republics" of yu, of which they are the inheritors.
(dramon, 22 November 2007 19:53)”

Look guys, it’s not a hard concept to fathom.

The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Tito’s Yugoslavia) ceased to be, nobody got their UN seat, it was abolished.

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had to apply for a new seat in the UN, just like Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia etc. Hence FRY was unable to sue the US for War Crimes, since they didn’t exist in the UN at the time, which is a BS excuse if you ask me, since they were liable for war crimes committed in the same time frame.

When FRY changed its name to the Union of Serbia and Montenegro, they kept their UN seat. This makes sense, without being able to transfer seats, neither China nor Russia would have a seat on the security council and the UN would have gone the way of the League of Nations.

If you recall, the International Community did NOT want Montenegro to leave the Union. In the Constitution, which was mediated by the International Community (Read: “The West”) it stated that if Serbia or Montenegro desired to leave the Union, the remaining state would inherit the UN seat. If both mutually agreed to dissolve the country, neither would get the seat. These conditions were encouraged by the International Community, the “friends” of Albanians.

So, Montenegro had to apply for a new seat, Serbia did not.

The time for claiming Serbia could not retain that seat has past. Had you raised those objections in 2006 or when the constitution was being debated, it might have been a possibility, but I don’t China and Russia would have gone along with that.

“Once you bend the rules - and you bend them hard - don't expect the int'l law will come to your rescue. (C, 22 November 2007 15:05)”

C, that is like telling a criminal that because you committed a crime, the laws protecting your rights (right to trial, an attorney, etc) shouldn’t apply either.

Legally it’s a nonsense argument and that kind of twisted logic is employed far too often in the Balkans to justify committing war crimes against the “other side”. Far too often I hear “they did it to us” as justification for doing the exact same thing to the other side. A crime is still a crime.

Should Serbia be punished for the crimes committed? Most certainly. However, you seem to be making the argument that crimes committed BEFORE the agreement that led to UNSC 1244 somehow inviolate it AFTER the fact. The reality is at the time UNSC 1244 was signed, the crimes attributed to Serbia were grossly exaggerated (eg hundred of thousands of Albanians were supposedly murdered BEFORE the start of the NATO bombing).

So, I think I can safely say that the conditions set out in UNSC 1244 are overly harsh and if anything, ought to be reduced, since it turns out the crimes Serbia committed were not as severe as previously claimed.

Olf, the UNSC 1244 does not mention “parallel” institutions because it was NOT an agreement two countries. Serbia was intended to retain its institutions in Kosovo INCLUDING their military. Serbia hasn’t even been able to fully implement the provisions of UNSC 1244 in those areas under Serbian control. That is the injustice, not that Serbia retains some form of control in those areas.

Personally, I support the Right to Self Determination. I think all Albanians and all Serbs should have the right to live in a single country, ESPECIALLY if we both join the EU. It is inherently UNDEMOCRATIC to artificially reduce the political weight of both of these European people’s in the EU by dividing them among the various countries in the region. In the US this is called Gerrymandering and it’s illegal.

Do you want a truly democratic Europe or merely a dictatorship under Germany, France and the UK? You agree with them now because they are supporting your interests, but what about when their desires go against your interests? Do you not think the wishes of the lesser developed countries deserve attention?

Do you really want to trade living under Serbia for living under Germany? There is a better way.

We have the attention of the International Community at this time, why are we not working together to find a solution that benefits both our people, regardless of where we live?

Do you not see that it’s in the interest of the Western European countries to keep the Balkans divided and unable to form their own political block?

Do you not see that we have far more in common than divides us?

Yes, we have some issues to work out, and crimes have been committed, but how long must this hatred go on?

If you truly want to hate one another, why bother joining the EU? Are we both Europeans or are we natural enemies?

What do you want for the future of your children and grandchildren? The same hatred, war and bloodshed that has plagued all of us for so long? Do you really want to destroy the future of the EU?

Continue on this path, and the best either of us can hope for is menial jobs in the service industry in Western European countries. Our young will leave for “better” opportunities elsewhere serving the elite and rich in Western Europe, and our old will live in squalor, unloved and forgotten.

WAKE UP AND USE YOUR HEADS!

This man (Kostunica) is not bad. A Serb at heart, a true statesman, sticks to his pincipals, and cannot be swayed nor bought out. We need more politicians like him!!

Noel,

Obviously I support partition as I support the Right to Self Determination. My views are 100% consistent regardless of ethnicity.

Do you support the Right to Self Determination in Bosnia and Krajina? Or only in Kosovo?

Does full independence for Kosovo do anything to solve the regional problems in other similar areas? Or is it merely a quick fix until the political dynamics change again?

KiM should & will remain within the Serbian rule based on the simple premise of what's right is right!

KiM is as holy to us as Jerusalem is to the Jews!

I think that parallel with Munich agreement is quite appropriate. What West desperately tries to do is gain wider support in Islamic world. Kosovo is seen in that calculation. Well according to some well informed sources the tide of Islam (on which Albanians are presently riding and gaining support in the West) will not last significantly long. I think that Serbia must keep its faith in the "day after" - when the tide will take opposite direction. Serbia should not yield to the pressure of the West. Concessions won't pay off to Serbia. World should radically change in he foreseeable future - Serbia should be prepared to wait. Then the real troublemakers will be more clearly exposed.

Jetoni,

I agree taking steps 1-6 which you outline would have been constructive for both sides and might have “saved” Kosovo, something I feel is worth any sacrifice. In fact, I pretty much agree with everything you said, even the Utopia comment.

Alas, there’s not much we little folk can really accomplish but I try to foster understanding on an individual level. Things seem bleak, but its really much better than 10 years ago. I still believe there won’t be violence, but I agree the whole region is on edge and it could result in bloodshed easily.

“Sure Matthew, we support it. Now, can we get our independence? Afterwards, perhaps will be your turn.
(miri, 23 November 2007 04:04)”

Miri, are you coming out in support of partition? That would be a great start, then we can support one another in our quest for equal representation for our populations in the EU. Start thinking long term. Without partition and unsupervised independence, you run the risk of ending up with Bosnia’s fate as a pseudo country in permanent limbo.

I actually support a form of the “neutral” compromise for now. Focus on those aspects and conditions that will be true regardless of whether the end result is autonomy or independence. Get the economy going. Allow the citizens to have a normal life and progress.

Russia is not a problem, Russia is the solution.