Actually Arjan,
I was concerned primarily with the many Serb settlements which would have to be uprooted for a dayton style agreement. I was being generous because this really is a painful serbian concession, that is to have serbs removed from your midst. Likewise, it would be prefererable if you resettled in your half of the province to avoid future problems as the one we have know. I will write letters to our dignitaries, offering this as a suggestion for further negotiations.
"….Every 5 or 10 years was … ethnic cleansing of ….. albanians.
What kind of morality serbian politician has?
After killing albanians for hundreed years same as a cows, after destroing their homes and deporting them in mass now wants to keep them inside their borders. I ask, Why? To do the same thing all over again? How come nobody talks obout what serbians did to albanians in kosova….. "
You, Albanians, keep repeating this wild accusations. You need reality check. Look at the demographic data. If Serbs really oppressed Albanians, deported and killed them in such numbers as you claim, how can it be that there are so many Albanians and so few Serbs in Kosovo? Or was it more other way around, that for most of the time in past Albanians killed and expelled Serbs? Didn't Muslim Albanians during Turkish period had a privileged position and oppressed Serbs (who as a Christians were "raja" without rights)?
Prince Lazar, this is a reasen why albanians in Kosova likes to be independent. Because there a lot of people like you in serbia. Albanians are not afraid of you, they have fought you for more than hundred years even without guns.
There is nothing to stop Kosovas independence. They have showed to the whole word that they deserve it.
Here is my solution for a compromise. Allow Albanian autonomy on 50% of the territory. Split the province in half along demographic lines, resettle both ethnic groups in their own territories as defacto dayton. This will allow a sense of long term safety for the Serbs as they will be supported by their own army and police. Also, Serbia needs to retain sovereignty over 100% of kososvo. Autonomy for the Albanians is a priviledge and not a right. That is what I and my colleagues predict. Otherwise a frozen conflict for generations is a price Serbs are willing to pay. This is the reality of life in the balkans
Peter Sudyka,
Let me clarify you your comment
"what I meant to say was that there are a great deal of countries that probably won't recognize an independent Kosovo, how will this look in the future?"
The Kosovar Albanian are really not worried whether Congo will recognise Kosova or not, even Cyprus or Greece at this stage. Whoever is considering using the veto to stop the process which has been invested so much would be taking a huge responsibility over its shoulders and it will not go away that easy. The Kosovar Albanians will never back down when it comes to sovereignity of Kosova. To many concessions have been made to Serbian minority in Ahtisari package.
I really don't get why Serbia wonts to hold Kosova with any price?
Really, because the other part of word may do the same think? That is funny.
Kosova was under Serbia for hundreed years. How good was this for albanians in Kosova. Every 5 or 10 years was there ethnic cleansing of serbians against albanians.
What kind of morality serbian politician has?
After killing albanians for hundreed years same as a cows, after destroing their homes and deporting them in mass now wants to keep them inside their borders. I ask, Why? To do the same thing all over again?
That is all discusting, end sick, makes my stomach to throw up.
How come nobody talks obout what serbians did to albanians in kosova. How come not to here what 95% of population has to say. Whole word is sick. Who says we are on Europe on 2007?
I understand very well that someone like Cyprus or Slovakia does not carry the weight of the UK or Germany, that wasn't my point, what I meant to say was that there are a great deal of countries that probably won't recognize an independent Kosovo, how will this look in the future? One day if there is an independent Kosovo will have enough economic stability and sufficient to join the EU, how is it going look if a portion of the states don't even recognize Kosovo?
If the world would agree on an independent Kosovo, naturally I would be for it to, but the fact that there is so much division leads me to question whether or not it would be viable (I do believe there is risk involved, otherwise Kosovo would have been independent a long time ago).
And this is why ultimately it needs to be an agreement between Serbia and Kosovo, I don't believe that the outside world should go deciding the fates of either (we can already see there is division), they can only facilitate/mediate, but there HAS TO be some kind of mutual decision, because history has shown us time and time again that in the Balkans, without mutual agreements between parties, there is war and not peace.
The ignorance i am observing is beyond anything i have ever seen. By all means, i assure everyone that the UN cant afford to grant kosovO independence as for the fact that if they do serbia will have all rights to take back the serbian republic in BiH which makes up 50% of the land mass. I see war coming. Something pointless. All UN countries, being Congo or Germany, they are all equal. Granting Kosovo independence is going to unleash a chain reaction that will be very costly. Russia cannot afford to lose Chechnya although if it were to it would gain Ossetia and various other states. Russia prefers to keep things settled rather than seeing war. As with China, Taiwan will also demand independence. So if the kosovo albanians get independence, the serbs, russians, chinese, and many many others will have that same right. The US is tredding on very dangerous ground. Unillateral independence is not only a breach of the UN constituion but a breach of internation laws. I by all means am in no way threatened by the stance of the US, i mean a country in which it is true that a large number of the population cannot point out america on the world map. Not even worth laughing at. The only reason why america even supports albania in kosovo is for the fact they want to build a fort, allowing them to set up their "anti-iranian" nuclear missile defences.
Albania has not always been an ally of the west during both WW1 and 2 they were allies with the Axis powers and Albania was almost to NIS as some have said but it was reduced by the winning side. Well i am still talking to myself and everyone can say independence here there everywhere i will just wait to see what happens. Like we should all instead bringing up how bad it was living under Serbs and all this i don't know how it was but you at least had power and at a time Automony but some people decided to pay back for the what others did to them. But however let us just wait and see what happens all this finger pointing is pointless. More than half of the poster don't even live in Serbia or Kosovo matter of fact never lived there. So those who are stirring the soup keep stirring it.
The big difference between Albanians and Serbs that we are naturally very pro USA and Europe rather than your slavo-Russian roots.
I visited Kosovo as a tourist in August 2006 with my wife; both of us traveling with US passports. Her name is irish; mine is Slavic. We were detained at the border and harrassed because of my name, and were only allowed to proceed because I had diplomatic credentials. Ten minutes later, we were stopped by the Kosovo police and the same thing happened again. Democracy and human rights in Kosovo are a joke. Am I for Serbian hegemony? Of course not. But shame on all of you who claim that Kosovo is open and tolerant for minorities - it' not.
"How can you ask to more than two million people to be Serbian citizen after all they have been through my friend?"
This is a fair question, and I genuinely respect your view; but I don't think you want an honest answer. I don't want to minimize the human rights abuses in Kosovo that the Serbian government instituted and to which the populace largely acquiesced; but a bit of perspective is perhaps appropriate.Recently, the US commemorated the 50th anniversary of the 50th year of the integration of Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas. or those who don't know the event, then-President Eisenhower sent federal troops to challenge the Arkansas National Guard and enforce the Supreme Court's ruling under Brown v. Topeka Board of Education. That occurred within our lifetimes, and no one today clamors for the independence of the American southern states, despite the overt abuses of human rights they suffered. (And, if you travel there today, that they continue to suffer.)
I'm all for all people living in complete freedom. But that applies to Serbs in Kosovo, too, and frankly, from what I've seen firsthand, they're an oppressed minority. Fix that first, then there's a basis for talk of independence.
You are wrong! The only pro-Soviet Albanians to have ever been, were some old comunists like Fadil Hoxha, Azem Vlasi, Xhavit Nimani. Most of them are already dead. It's 2007 for Christs sake.
Maybe Serbia should survey the opinions of Kosovo Albanians before throwing wild cards and wasting everybody's time.
Yeah Funcakes, Be brave enough to mention all other supporters, Peru and Panama. I don't know where you have been living these last couple of centuries but countries like these shape the world. Further, why don't you name your supporters (other than the U.S. all of REAL EU, and the rest of the world minus peru panama and congo, and of course Russia)? Be honest with yourself.
"Serbia's Kosovo bid still tough, but improved"
Ok , but can anyone tell me what that offer is? And not any phrases like "most extended autonomy" , no , what are they exactly offering?
I see there is a lot of discussion going on. Could any of you AGAINST INDEPENDENCE people give me a simple reason WHY SHOULD KOSOVO STILL BE PART OF SERBIA? and HOW DO YOU IMAGINE LIFE IN KOSOVO UNDER SERBIAN INSTITUTIONS apart from that mithological story of Kosovo being cultural stronghold and all that...I mean...come on guys...Kosovo was given to Serbia in 1912! It`s not even hundred years! Id be happy to get an answer to this.
Regards from Kosova
There's gonna be no partition of Kosova. If someone even thinks about that, they should expect Vojvodina to held their own referendum 5 years from now, Sandjak 7 years from now, ah...and The Valley - the very next day. Serbia will be the one that will lose the most. That's why everyone should think twice before even giving any ideas of division. The West, East, South and North of the world knows that, and they have excluded it as an option at all, so...there is no land for grabs or trade in this case. If there is gonna be any trading at all, it will be in political favors, promises, and/or cash. All we can do is wait and see.
First, when I argue that Serbia needs to "let go" of Kosovo, it needs to let go of what it cannot control, and has made no effort to control. The fact that 90% of the population does not want to go back to Belgrade should be honored, and Belgrade should not have to deal with this potential headache. When I say that Serbia should hold onto what it values, it should include those areas that are currently populated by Serbs, both north and south of the Ibar, as well as the main cultural and relgious sites of Kosovo, such as Decani, Pec, Devic, and Gazimestan.
Secondly, I am not in favor of partition because partition cuts Serbia short. It would be easy - painfully easy - to say "draw the line at the Ibar" and Serbia gets everything north, while everything south is lost. This effectively severs 2/3 of all K-Serb communities away from Belgrade. Not to mention all of the cultural sites you correctly point out are south of the Ibar. Again, why give Pristina more than it deserves? By federalizing Kosovo, all Serb-held areas of inhabitation and cultural importance are maintained and held through institutional guarantees. Paritition gets rid of claims Serbia can still hold onto.
Mike - I understand where you're coming from, but would like to make two points.
Firstly, you don't allow for the genuinely cultural importance of Kosovo to most Serbs; this can't be bought for any price. If it could, then I agree that the time is right for Tadic and Kostunica to milk the situation for as much as possible.
But certain things would be more important to keep than 'sell'. I think even most young Serbs feel this way.
Secondly, I can see your point about the reality on the ground in Kosovo. I know that you can see Serbia's argument for keeping the province, but believe that this would be practically impossible. Therefore, I'm surprised that you're not one of the advocates of partition. I just wondered why.
"you won´t leave nowhere... "
Kosovar Albanians will not be asking you for independence...they already have left you and you have no influence over Kosova. As to a seat in the UN it will happen soon that is all about "my old man".
Historically Albanians have had a clear inclination towards the west and US in particular. Woodrow Wilson's intervention saved Albania from being split up by the same Serbia and friendly Greece after IWW. Anti-communist stance and direct support of USA kept the spirit of resistance alive. And lately US intervention saved Albanians again.
It is something very natural in synchronising the most cherished values of the free world and the desire of the Kosovars to be free. To suggest even hypothetically that Albanian would ally themselves with what is for us an alien culture is absurd to say at least. I do not see the relevance of Hoxha being mentioned either. No disrespect to Afrim who shares the same surname with him, Albanians are trying to forget his legacy.
Czesc Peter Sudyka,
I have nothing against Slavs. I am Albanian and my wife is Polish or in other words Slav. In a democratic society sometimes we have to agree to disagree. Sometimes there might be disagreements between EU countries and that is why Europe is trying very hard to persuade any reluctant country that Kosova independence and Ahtisari Plan is the best and realistic solution for the whole region. In addition Troika is trying very hard to give the negotiations a chance. I personally do not believe in any positive outcome or agreement when it comes to the final status of Kosova which MUST be independence.
I am still optimistic that EU will come up with a common decision. Now listen to me carefully. Each country has got its own relevance within the European Union and that means that UK,France,Germany,Italy are the main contributors to the Union. On the other side Greece, Romania, Spain and Cyprus and Poland with great respect are getting a lot of help from this Union. So my friend let's be real you can not compare Cyprus with UK when it comes to the weight in the European Union. When it comes to Kosova issue Cyprus or Greece can say "No" for themselves to independence of Kosova. There would be on their right but to veto the will of other nations in the Union would be madness, not pragmatic and very unhelpful to the stability in the region. I am sure that Europena diplomats are working on it to persuade these countries. Looking into the history of Kosova without any pre-judgment you will realise that Kosova deserve independece and is a sui generis case. The issue between Kosova and Serbia is the "sovereignity". As you know Serbia has not control over Kosova since 1999. We agree on that. How can you ask to more than two million people to be Serbian citizen after all they have been through my friend?
"...That is ridiculous! How many laws need to be broken to recognize this territory that is not even a state! I don't think failure of the EU and UNSC is worth Kosovo independence at all.
Say what you want about Russia, but they are by far the most diplomatic and flexible of the members of this troika.
(Peter Sudyka, 7. October 2007 15:50)"
It will take as much as possible laws to be broken (if there will be any to be broken, becouse Kosovo and Serbia, both were constituiv units of ex Yugoslavia), just to not let anymore , any power in the wrong serbian hands, just not to kill anymore inocent civilians all over ex republics of ex YU.
As for Russia and their dirty cash (as some posters are proud of it), you can keep their diplomacy and flexibility, becouse we albanians are fed up of your diplomacy and flexibility, all of you have shown very well that kind of diplomacy and flexibility
It was just weird to mention Congo as a supporter in this issue.
The main players are Russia and China for the Serbs and USA, France, UK with the Albos.
And we still don't know about Germany yet.
This is the game plan. Congo is not gonna change anything. That's why it sounds desperate when Congo is mentioned, kind of like a "filler".
Of course, Russia and China will not keep on with this Serb support because they don't have the power to sanction anyone or they lose out on their own interests, but hey, we got Congo on our side.
Russia can't impose itself on EU, because if it stops the gas supply, where is it gonna make the money from? Will Congo buy enough to compensate for the losses? :)
Oh, and individual countries of EU can recognize independences individually. It doesn't have to be a common decision. It would be preferable, but not necessary.
It just pushes Kosovo and Albania closer to a union though, then we'll see who has a seat and who doesn't.
"The big difference between Albanians and Serbs that we are naturally very pro USA and Europe rather than your slavo-Russian roots."
EA, no one is "naturally" anything. Attitudes are socially constructed and politically motivated. Might I remind you that throughout Tito's reign, Yugoslavia was a close associate of the West, and played down any ties to Moscow on account of being dominated by the Soviets. Might I also remind you that Serbs throughout history have found equal commonality with French, Austrian, and British ideals as they have Russian. This so-called Serbian-Russian alliance is an alliance for convenience and convenience only. Like you, Serbia allys with the power that can give it a better deal. Your alliance (read more as reliance) with Washington is no different.
If I can play Devil's Advocate for a minute, you are overtly pro-US because the US is supporting your drive for independence. I can understand that, and I'd even respect that if you just came out and said it. But let's not engage in primoridal stereotyping unless you're willing to look at your own shifting loyalties. Let's say hypothetically it were Russia that was supporting Kosovo's independence, and Washington backing Serbia. Something tells me you'd all be blowing the dust off of the Stalin placards your grandparents loyally carried up to the last days of Enver Hoxha's life. In fact, wasn't it Hoxha who willingly left the Comintern because the Soviet Union wasn't Stalinist enough? If Putin were in your corner, you'd be waving posters of him, greeting him in Pristina and Tirana with red carnations, and saying that Albanians have always admired the Great Russian Bear, noting your loyal adherence to communism, and showing him all those lovely pill boxes that dot the Adriatic coastline.
It's funny how alliances for convenience suddenly make people think their relationship was a match made in heaven.
EA, unlike Cvele and Jovan, I am not a Serb, I am from Poland, whose country is pro-independence. While I am also a Slav, doesn't mean that is a reason for me to back the Serbs, I just back them because I believe in world order and law, and I prefer their stance.
What I was telling you earlier is that the EU is divided on this issue, and it is not as simple as you think that just Italy, Germany, UK and France decide on everything and the rest don't count, no, the whole union has to come to a decision, and as things stand, there is no common ground.
Serbia and the Kosovo Albanians best get down to some serious discussions, because the world is divided.
first of all, I would recommend you to stop this childish approach to compare the Kosovo-issue with any familiar-comparisons... there is no marriage and then divorce... IF there could be a comparison...that it would be Father and kid... but, even that is not appropriate, since kids grow up and leave the house some day...
you won´t leave nowhere...
so much for those really naive attempts to compare the issue to any family-relations...
and furthermore, my dear albanian teenagers... if Congo is a loser-country, as you put it so arrogantly... let me remind you, those losers are recognized UN-members...something that you desperately wish to be, but will never be!
so, in your own interest, stop downplaying others, in order not to discredit yourselves!
so, that kind of arrogance is certainly something that doesn´t suit you very well...
(Jovan, 7. October 2007 16:16)
Jovan where do you go off insulting other posters? When was the last time CONGO vetoed anything? Do you think the whole world is going to abide to a plan just to have loser-country(es) veto out of no where?
America won't spend billions of USD just to have a small country like Congo or Serbia veto anything. It's called power.
You can see on his eyes Kosova is lost and it will never become what Milosevic once tried to. Kosova is going for Independence and its NOTHING who will stop it, not Russia, China or Congo for that matter. The U.S. have already made it very clear what they will do when we declare unilateral Independence, the very next day they will recognize...
Let's not sell Serbia short for the sake of keeping Kosovo like a museum piece. The retention of Kosovo should not come at the expense of eroding Serbian political authority, nor should it come at the expense of holding it in name only.
If we use the metaphor of the Albanian mugger robbing a Serb, the Serb here is thinking "if I voluntarily give him all my money, I can say that I wasn't robbed." This is just dumb. Tadic et al, needs to realize that there are more important things than simply keeping physical borders intact. I understand the reason to keep all of Kosovo, but why do the Albanians any special favors that they don't deserve?
Rather, Serbia needs to turn around and say "OK guys, I'll let you have your independence, and everything you've been dreaming of since 1999....for a price." I mean if I were in Tadic's or Kostunica's shoes right now, I'd milk this for everything there is. I would see the Albanians are desperate for independence and willing to accept anything in order to get it. Notice how Pristina rolled over without any major protests at the sign of the Ahtisaari Proposal which in some measure gives more rights to K-Serbs than anyone else. Notice also their complete agreement to turn Kosovo over to an EU Mandate, and allow the construction of Camp Bondsteel - all acceptible if it means, even if only on paper, that Kosovo is independent. I would also see the Western powers as deserpate for a solution, ANY solution that is negotiated and agreed upon, as opposed to a unilateral declaration they know Ceku will announce, and they know they need to follow up on, but wish to God they didn't have to. First law of Business 101 says that any party that is desperate to buy, will agree to any price short of breaking their bank. Rather than Belgrade doing whatever it takes to keep Kosovo, they should see that Pristina is doing whatever it takes to break away, and the US is willing to accept any solution that smacks of compromise. Pardon me for being all Machiavellian this morning, but Belgrade could clean house on so many provisions, gurarantees, and additional rights for its own people, not to mention various political privileges in Serb regions of Kosovo, all for the sake of a "neogtiated" solution come December 10. Rather than exposing the weakensses of Serbian sovereignty, Belgrade needs to capitalize on the weaknesses of their opponents, particularly Pristina's demand of "anything but Belgrade".
Cvele,Jovan,Peter Sudyka,
Let me assure you that we Albanians are not jelous at all for you having great friends like Kongo, Burkina Faso, Nigeria, and even Russia. The big difference between Albanians and Serbs that we are naturally very pro USA and Europe rather than your slavo-Russian roots. We are not jelous even for you joining Russian Federation. We even wish you very good luck. What the Kosovar Albanians want just to devorce you. In the modern world you can't force anyone into marrage otherwise you might be asking for medical treatment. Serbia is living separate lives with Kosova since 1999. In West when you live separately for two years you are devorced automatically.
Congo holds a current UN seat. So obviously u cant see what he is talking about. As does China. Does he mean China is willing to VETO? If so it is no wonder Holland has seen the light. YOU DO NOT UNITE RUSSIA AND CHINA OVER albanians. Its... shall we say... VERY STUPID!
"We insist on status discussions, the Albanian side does not want that, rather, they would like to talk about relations between two independent states," Tadić said of the latest developments in the negotiating process, and repeated that Belgrade was committed to debating the status, not post-status issues.
I like Tadic "optimism". He got to be but the above statements are true. If Russia still threatened to stick to its veto in the Security Council even after these so-called negotiations the other superpowers USA, France and UK will not allow that happens. There is a plan B of recognising Kosova independence individually. It will be done individually by each member states of the UN. The fate of Kosova will not be left in the hands of Cyprus or Greece. They can say "No" for themselves but not stop the other EU countries to decide individully.
The voting system of the EU is based on unanimity.
In 2004, France and the Netherlands refused the Constitutional Referendum and it took three years to get their votes turned (after it was redrafted).
Another issue was this year, when Poland, the Netherlands, the UK and Czech Republic voiced concern over the voting system proposed by Germany and again, the issue was not solved.
If there is dissent in the EU with regards to Kosovo, it will simply mean that the EU will not agree to independence. There is a lot of opposing voice (Spain, Romania, Greece, Slovakia and Cyprus), no matter how insignificant you think these countries are, they are a part of the EU and their votes count.
The US has already sidestepped the UNSC regarding Kosovo, are they now pushing the EU to undermine their constitution by voting individually?
That is ridiculous! How many laws need to be broken to recognize this territory that is not even a state! I don't think failure of the EU and UNSC is worth Kosovo independence at all.
Say what you want about Russia, but they are by far the most diplomatic and flexible of the members of this troika.
"We insist on status discussions, the Albanian side does not want that, rather, they would like to talk about relations between two independent states," Tadić said of the latest developments in the negotiating process, and repeated that Belgrade was committed to debating the status, not post-status issues.
I like Tadic "optimism". He got to be but the above statements are true. If Russia still threatened to stick to its veto in the Security Council even after these so-called negotiations the other superpowers USA, France and UK will not allow that happens. There is a plan B of recognising Kosova independence individually. It will be done individually by each member states of the UN. The fate of Kosova will not be left in the hands of Cyprus or Greece. They can say "No" for themselves but not stop the other EU countries to decide individully.
so, that kind of arrogance is certainly something that doesn´t suit you very well...
(Jovan, 7. October 2007 16:16)
Jovan where do you go off insulting other posters? When was the last time CONGO vetoed anything? Do you think the whole world is going to abide to a plan just to have loser-country(es) veto out of no where?
America won't spend billions of USD just to have a small country like Congo or Serbia veto anything. It's called power.
Cvele,Jovan,Peter Sudyka,
Let me assure you that we Albanians are not jelous at all for you having great friends like Kongo, Burkina Faso, Nigeria, and even Russia. The big difference between Albanians and Serbs that we are naturally very pro USA and Europe rather than your slavo-Russian roots. We are not jelous even for you joining Russian Federation. We even wish you very good luck. What the Kosovar Albanians want just to devorce you. In the modern world you can't force anyone into marrage otherwise you might be asking for medical treatment. Serbia is living separate lives with Kosova since 1999. In West when you live separately for two years you are devorced automatically.
"The big difference between Albanians and Serbs that we are naturally very pro USA and Europe rather than your slavo-Russian roots."
EA, no one is "naturally" anything. Attitudes are socially constructed and politically motivated. Might I remind you that throughout Tito's reign, Yugoslavia was a close associate of the West, and played down any ties to Moscow on account of being dominated by the Soviets. Might I also remind you that Serbs throughout history have found equal commonality with French, Austrian, and British ideals as they have Russian. This so-called Serbian-Russian alliance is an alliance for convenience and convenience only. Like you, Serbia allys with the power that can give it a better deal. Your alliance (read more as reliance) with Washington is no different.
If I can play Devil's Advocate for a minute, you are overtly pro-US because the US is supporting your drive for independence. I can understand that, and I'd even respect that if you just came out and said it. But let's not engage in primoridal stereotyping unless you're willing to look at your own shifting loyalties. Let's say hypothetically it were Russia that was supporting Kosovo's independence, and Washington backing Serbia. Something tells me you'd all be blowing the dust off of the Stalin placards your grandparents loyally carried up to the last days of Enver Hoxha's life. In fact, wasn't it Hoxha who willingly left the Comintern because the Soviet Union wasn't Stalinist enough? If Putin were in your corner, you'd be waving posters of him, greeting him in Pristina and Tirana with red carnations, and saying that Albanians have always admired the Great Russian Bear, noting your loyal adherence to communism, and showing him all those lovely pill boxes that dot the Adriatic coastline.
It's funny how alliances for convenience suddenly make people think their relationship was a match made in heaven.
The voting system of the EU is based on unanimity.
In 2004, France and the Netherlands refused the Constitutional Referendum and it took three years to get their votes turned (after it was redrafted).
Another issue was this year, when Poland, the Netherlands, the UK and Czech Republic voiced concern over the voting system proposed by Germany and again, the issue was not solved.
If there is dissent in the EU with regards to Kosovo, it will simply mean that the EU will not agree to independence. There is a lot of opposing voice (Spain, Romania, Greece, Slovakia and Cyprus), no matter how insignificant you think these countries are, they are a part of the EU and their votes count.
The US has already sidestepped the UNSC regarding Kosovo, are they now pushing the EU to undermine their constitution by voting individually?
That is ridiculous! How many laws need to be broken to recognize this territory that is not even a state! I don't think failure of the EU and UNSC is worth Kosovo independence at all.
Say what you want about Russia, but they are by far the most diplomatic and flexible of the members of this troika.
You can see on his eyes Kosova is lost and it will never become what Milosevic once tried to. Kosova is going for Independence and its NOTHING who will stop it, not Russia, China or Congo for that matter. The U.S. have already made it very clear what they will do when we declare unilateral Independence, the very next day they will recognize...
Let's not sell Serbia short for the sake of keeping Kosovo like a museum piece. The retention of Kosovo should not come at the expense of eroding Serbian political authority, nor should it come at the expense of holding it in name only.
If we use the metaphor of the Albanian mugger robbing a Serb, the Serb here is thinking "if I voluntarily give him all my money, I can say that I wasn't robbed." This is just dumb. Tadic et al, needs to realize that there are more important things than simply keeping physical borders intact. I understand the reason to keep all of Kosovo, but why do the Albanians any special favors that they don't deserve?
Rather, Serbia needs to turn around and say "OK guys, I'll let you have your independence, and everything you've been dreaming of since 1999....for a price." I mean if I were in Tadic's or Kostunica's shoes right now, I'd milk this for everything there is. I would see the Albanians are desperate for independence and willing to accept anything in order to get it. Notice how Pristina rolled over without any major protests at the sign of the Ahtisaari Proposal which in some measure gives more rights to K-Serbs than anyone else. Notice also their complete agreement to turn Kosovo over to an EU Mandate, and allow the construction of Camp Bondsteel - all acceptible if it means, even if only on paper, that Kosovo is independent. I would also see the Western powers as deserpate for a solution, ANY solution that is negotiated and agreed upon, as opposed to a unilateral declaration they know Ceku will announce, and they know they need to follow up on, but wish to God they didn't have to. First law of Business 101 says that any party that is desperate to buy, will agree to any price short of breaking their bank. Rather than Belgrade doing whatever it takes to keep Kosovo, they should see that Pristina is doing whatever it takes to break away, and the US is willing to accept any solution that smacks of compromise. Pardon me for being all Machiavellian this morning, but Belgrade could clean house on so many provisions, gurarantees, and additional rights for its own people, not to mention various political privileges in Serb regions of Kosovo, all for the sake of a "neogtiated" solution come December 10. Rather than exposing the weakensses of Serbian sovereignty, Belgrade needs to capitalize on the weaknesses of their opponents, particularly Pristina's demand of "anything but Belgrade".
Congo holds a current UN seat. So obviously u cant see what he is talking about. As does China. Does he mean China is willing to VETO? If so it is no wonder Holland has seen the light. YOU DO NOT UNITE RUSSIA AND CHINA OVER albanians. Its... shall we say... VERY STUPID!
EA, unlike Cvele and Jovan, I am not a Serb, I am from Poland, whose country is pro-independence. While I am also a Slav, doesn't mean that is a reason for me to back the Serbs, I just back them because I believe in world order and law, and I prefer their stance.
What I was telling you earlier is that the EU is divided on this issue, and it is not as simple as you think that just Italy, Germany, UK and France decide on everything and the rest don't count, no, the whole union has to come to a decision, and as things stand, there is no common ground.
Serbia and the Kosovo Albanians best get down to some serious discussions, because the world is divided.
first of all, I would recommend you to stop this childish approach to compare the Kosovo-issue with any familiar-comparisons... there is no marriage and then divorce... IF there could be a comparison...that it would be Father and kid... but, even that is not appropriate, since kids grow up and leave the house some day...
you won´t leave nowhere...
so much for those really naive attempts to compare the issue to any family-relations...
and furthermore, my dear albanian teenagers... if Congo is a loser-country, as you put it so arrogantly... let me remind you, those losers are recognized UN-members...something that you desperately wish to be, but will never be!
so, in your own interest, stop downplaying others, in order not to discredit yourselves!
It was just weird to mention Congo as a supporter in this issue.
The main players are Russia and China for the Serbs and USA, France, UK with the Albos.
And we still don't know about Germany yet.
This is the game plan. Congo is not gonna change anything. That's why it sounds desperate when Congo is mentioned, kind of like a "filler".
Of course, Russia and China will not keep on with this Serb support because they don't have the power to sanction anyone or they lose out on their own interests, but hey, we got Congo on our side.
Russia can't impose itself on EU, because if it stops the gas supply, where is it gonna make the money from? Will Congo buy enough to compensate for the losses? :)
Oh, and individual countries of EU can recognize independences individually. It doesn't have to be a common decision. It would be preferable, but not necessary.
It just pushes Kosovo and Albania closer to a union though, then we'll see who has a seat and who doesn't.
Historically Albanians have had a clear inclination towards the west and US in particular. Woodrow Wilson's intervention saved Albania from being split up by the same Serbia and friendly Greece after IWW. Anti-communist stance and direct support of USA kept the spirit of resistance alive. And lately US intervention saved Albanians again.
It is something very natural in synchronising the most cherished values of the free world and the desire of the Kosovars to be free. To suggest even hypothetically that Albanian would ally themselves with what is for us an alien culture is absurd to say at least. I do not see the relevance of Hoxha being mentioned either. No disrespect to Afrim who shares the same surname with him, Albanians are trying to forget his legacy.
First, when I argue that Serbia needs to "let go" of Kosovo, it needs to let go of what it cannot control, and has made no effort to control. The fact that 90% of the population does not want to go back to Belgrade should be honored, and Belgrade should not have to deal with this potential headache. When I say that Serbia should hold onto what it values, it should include those areas that are currently populated by Serbs, both north and south of the Ibar, as well as the main cultural and relgious sites of Kosovo, such as Decani, Pec, Devic, and Gazimestan.
Secondly, I am not in favor of partition because partition cuts Serbia short. It would be easy - painfully easy - to say "draw the line at the Ibar" and Serbia gets everything north, while everything south is lost. This effectively severs 2/3 of all K-Serb communities away from Belgrade. Not to mention all of the cultural sites you correctly point out are south of the Ibar. Again, why give Pristina more than it deserves? By federalizing Kosovo, all Serb-held areas of inhabitation and cultural importance are maintained and held through institutional guarantees. Paritition gets rid of claims Serbia can still hold onto.
I see there is a lot of discussion going on. Could any of you AGAINST INDEPENDENCE people give me a simple reason WHY SHOULD KOSOVO STILL BE PART OF SERBIA? and HOW DO YOU IMAGINE LIFE IN KOSOVO UNDER SERBIAN INSTITUTIONS apart from that mithological story of Kosovo being cultural stronghold and all that...I mean...come on guys...Kosovo was given to Serbia in 1912! It`s not even hundred years! Id be happy to get an answer to this.
Regards from Kosova
The big difference between Albanians and Serbs that we are naturally very pro USA and Europe rather than your slavo-Russian roots.
I visited Kosovo as a tourist in August 2006 with my wife; both of us traveling with US passports. Her name is irish; mine is Slavic. We were detained at the border and harrassed because of my name, and were only allowed to proceed because I had diplomatic credentials. Ten minutes later, we were stopped by the Kosovo police and the same thing happened again. Democracy and human rights in Kosovo are a joke. Am I for Serbian hegemony? Of course not. But shame on all of you who claim that Kosovo is open and tolerant for minorities - it' not.
"How can you ask to more than two million people to be Serbian citizen after all they have been through my friend?"
This is a fair question, and I genuinely respect your view; but I don't think you want an honest answer. I don't want to minimize the human rights abuses in Kosovo that the Serbian government instituted and to which the populace largely acquiesced; but a bit of perspective is perhaps appropriate.Recently, the US commemorated the 50th anniversary of the 50th year of the integration of Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas. or those who don't know the event, then-President Eisenhower sent federal troops to challenge the Arkansas National Guard and enforce the Supreme Court's ruling under Brown v. Topeka Board of Education. That occurred within our lifetimes, and no one today clamors for the independence of the American southern states, despite the overt abuses of human rights they suffered. (And, if you travel there today, that they continue to suffer.)
I'm all for all people living in complete freedom. But that applies to Serbs in Kosovo, too, and frankly, from what I've seen firsthand, they're an oppressed minority. Fix that first, then there's a basis for talk of independence.
You are wrong! The only pro-Soviet Albanians to have ever been, were some old comunists like Fadil Hoxha, Azem Vlasi, Xhavit Nimani. Most of them are already dead. It's 2007 for Christs sake.
Maybe Serbia should survey the opinions of Kosovo Albanians before throwing wild cards and wasting everybody's time.
I understand very well that someone like Cyprus or Slovakia does not carry the weight of the UK or Germany, that wasn't my point, what I meant to say was that there are a great deal of countries that probably won't recognize an independent Kosovo, how will this look in the future? One day if there is an independent Kosovo will have enough economic stability and sufficient to join the EU, how is it going look if a portion of the states don't even recognize Kosovo?
If the world would agree on an independent Kosovo, naturally I would be for it to, but the fact that there is so much division leads me to question whether or not it would be viable (I do believe there is risk involved, otherwise Kosovo would have been independent a long time ago).
And this is why ultimately it needs to be an agreement between Serbia and Kosovo, I don't believe that the outside world should go deciding the fates of either (we can already see there is division), they can only facilitate/mediate, but there HAS TO be some kind of mutual decision, because history has shown us time and time again that in the Balkans, without mutual agreements between parties, there is war and not peace.
Mike - I understand where you're coming from, but would like to make two points.
Firstly, you don't allow for the genuinely cultural importance of Kosovo to most Serbs; this can't be bought for any price. If it could, then I agree that the time is right for Tadic and Kostunica to milk the situation for as much as possible.
But certain things would be more important to keep than 'sell'. I think even most young Serbs feel this way.
Secondly, I can see your point about the reality on the ground in Kosovo. I know that you can see Serbia's argument for keeping the province, but believe that this would be practically impossible. Therefore, I'm surprised that you're not one of the advocates of partition. I just wondered why.
Czesc Peter Sudyka,
I have nothing against Slavs. I am Albanian and my wife is Polish or in other words Slav. In a democratic society sometimes we have to agree to disagree. Sometimes there might be disagreements between EU countries and that is why Europe is trying very hard to persuade any reluctant country that Kosova independence and Ahtisari Plan is the best and realistic solution for the whole region. In addition Troika is trying very hard to give the negotiations a chance. I personally do not believe in any positive outcome or agreement when it comes to the final status of Kosova which MUST be independence.
I am still optimistic that EU will come up with a common decision. Now listen to me carefully. Each country has got its own relevance within the European Union and that means that UK,France,Germany,Italy are the main contributors to the Union. On the other side Greece, Romania, Spain and Cyprus and Poland with great respect are getting a lot of help from this Union. So my friend let's be real you can not compare Cyprus with UK when it comes to the weight in the European Union. When it comes to Kosova issue Cyprus or Greece can say "No" for themselves to independence of Kosova. There would be on their right but to veto the will of other nations in the Union would be madness, not pragmatic and very unhelpful to the stability in the region. I am sure that Europena diplomats are working on it to persuade these countries. Looking into the history of Kosova without any pre-judgment you will realise that Kosova deserve independece and is a sui generis case. The issue between Kosova and Serbia is the "sovereignity". As you know Serbia has not control over Kosova since 1999. We agree on that. How can you ask to more than two million people to be Serbian citizen after all they have been through my friend?
"Serbia's Kosovo bid still tough, but improved"
Ok , but can anyone tell me what that offer is? And not any phrases like "most extended autonomy" , no , what are they exactly offering?
Yeah Funcakes, Be brave enough to mention all other supporters, Peru and Panama. I don't know where you have been living these last couple of centuries but countries like these shape the world. Further, why don't you name your supporters (other than the U.S. all of REAL EU, and the rest of the world minus peru panama and congo, and of course Russia)? Be honest with yourself.
Albania has not always been an ally of the west during both WW1 and 2 they were allies with the Axis powers and Albania was almost to NIS as some have said but it was reduced by the winning side. Well i am still talking to myself and everyone can say independence here there everywhere i will just wait to see what happens. Like we should all instead bringing up how bad it was living under Serbs and all this i don't know how it was but you at least had power and at a time Automony but some people decided to pay back for the what others did to them. But however let us just wait and see what happens all this finger pointing is pointless. More than half of the poster don't even live in Serbia or Kosovo matter of fact never lived there. So those who are stirring the soup keep stirring it.
The ignorance i am observing is beyond anything i have ever seen. By all means, i assure everyone that the UN cant afford to grant kosovO independence as for the fact that if they do serbia will have all rights to take back the serbian republic in BiH which makes up 50% of the land mass. I see war coming. Something pointless. All UN countries, being Congo or Germany, they are all equal. Granting Kosovo independence is going to unleash a chain reaction that will be very costly. Russia cannot afford to lose Chechnya although if it were to it would gain Ossetia and various other states. Russia prefers to keep things settled rather than seeing war. As with China, Taiwan will also demand independence. So if the kosovo albanians get independence, the serbs, russians, chinese, and many many others will have that same right. The US is tredding on very dangerous ground. Unillateral independence is not only a breach of the UN constituion but a breach of internation laws. I by all means am in no way threatened by the stance of the US, i mean a country in which it is true that a large number of the population cannot point out america on the world map. Not even worth laughing at. The only reason why america even supports albania in kosovo is for the fact they want to build a fort, allowing them to set up their "anti-iranian" nuclear missile defences.
Here is my solution for a compromise. Allow Albanian autonomy on 50% of the territory. Split the province in half along demographic lines, resettle both ethnic groups in their own territories as defacto dayton. This will allow a sense of long term safety for the Serbs as they will be supported by their own army and police. Also, Serbia needs to retain sovereignty over 100% of kososvo. Autonomy for the Albanians is a priviledge and not a right. That is what I and my colleagues predict. Otherwise a frozen conflict for generations is a price Serbs are willing to pay. This is the reality of life in the balkans
"...That is ridiculous! How many laws need to be broken to recognize this territory that is not even a state! I don't think failure of the EU and UNSC is worth Kosovo independence at all.
Say what you want about Russia, but they are by far the most diplomatic and flexible of the members of this troika.
(Peter Sudyka, 7. October 2007 15:50)"
It will take as much as possible laws to be broken (if there will be any to be broken, becouse Kosovo and Serbia, both were constituiv units of ex Yugoslavia), just to not let anymore , any power in the wrong serbian hands, just not to kill anymore inocent civilians all over ex republics of ex YU.
As for Russia and their dirty cash (as some posters are proud of it), you can keep their diplomacy and flexibility, becouse we albanians are fed up of your diplomacy and flexibility, all of you have shown very well that kind of diplomacy and flexibility
"you won´t leave nowhere... "
Kosovar Albanians will not be asking you for independence...they already have left you and you have no influence over Kosova. As to a seat in the UN it will happen soon that is all about "my old man".
There's gonna be no partition of Kosova. If someone even thinks about that, they should expect Vojvodina to held their own referendum 5 years from now, Sandjak 7 years from now, ah...and The Valley - the very next day. Serbia will be the one that will lose the most. That's why everyone should think twice before even giving any ideas of division. The West, East, South and North of the world knows that, and they have excluded it as an option at all, so...there is no land for grabs or trade in this case. If there is gonna be any trading at all, it will be in political favors, promises, and/or cash. All we can do is wait and see.
I really don't get why Serbia wonts to hold Kosova with any price?
Really, because the other part of word may do the same think? That is funny.
Kosova was under Serbia for hundreed years. How good was this for albanians in Kosova. Every 5 or 10 years was there ethnic cleansing of serbians against albanians.
What kind of morality serbian politician has?
After killing albanians for hundreed years same as a cows, after destroing their homes and deporting them in mass now wants to keep them inside their borders. I ask, Why? To do the same thing all over again?
That is all discusting, end sick, makes my stomach to throw up.
How come nobody talks obout what serbians did to albanians in kosova. How come not to here what 95% of population has to say. Whole word is sick. Who says we are on Europe on 2007?
Peter Sudyka,
Let me clarify you your comment
"what I meant to say was that there are a great deal of countries that probably won't recognize an independent Kosovo, how will this look in the future?"
The Kosovar Albanian are really not worried whether Congo will recognise Kosova or not, even Cyprus or Greece at this stage. Whoever is considering using the veto to stop the process which has been invested so much would be taking a huge responsibility over its shoulders and it will not go away that easy. The Kosovar Albanians will never back down when it comes to sovereignity of Kosova. To many concessions have been made to Serbian minority in Ahtisari package.
Prince Lazar, this is a reasen why albanians in Kosova likes to be independent. Because there a lot of people like you in serbia. Albanians are not afraid of you, they have fought you for more than hundred years even without guns.
There is nothing to stop Kosovas independence. They have showed to the whole word that they deserve it.
"….Every 5 or 10 years was … ethnic cleansing of ….. albanians.
What kind of morality serbian politician has?
After killing albanians for hundreed years same as a cows, after destroing their homes and deporting them in mass now wants to keep them inside their borders. I ask, Why? To do the same thing all over again? How come nobody talks obout what serbians did to albanians in kosova….. "
You, Albanians, keep repeating this wild accusations. You need reality check. Look at the demographic data. If Serbs really oppressed Albanians, deported and killed them in such numbers as you claim, how can it be that there are so many Albanians and so few Serbs in Kosovo? Or was it more other way around, that for most of the time in past Albanians killed and expelled Serbs? Didn't Muslim Albanians during Turkish period had a privileged position and oppressed Serbs (who as a Christians were "raja" without rights)?
Actually Arjan,
I was concerned primarily with the many Serb settlements which would have to be uprooted for a dayton style agreement. I was being generous because this really is a painful serbian concession, that is to have serbs removed from your midst. Likewise, it would be prefererable if you resettled in your half of the province to avoid future problems as the one we have know. I will write letters to our dignitaries, offering this as a suggestion for further negotiations.
You can see on his eyes Kosova is lost and it will never become what Milosevic once tried to. Kosova is going for Independence and its NOTHING who will stop it, not Russia, China or Congo for that matter. The U.S. have already made it very clear what they will do when we declare unilateral Independence, the very next day they will recognize...
so, that kind of arrogance is certainly something that doesn´t suit you very well...
(Jovan, 7. October 2007 16:16)
Jovan where do you go off insulting other posters? When was the last time CONGO vetoed anything? Do you think the whole world is going to abide to a plan just to have loser-country(es) veto out of no where?
America won't spend billions of USD just to have a small country like Congo or Serbia veto anything. It's called power.
Cvele,Jovan,Peter Sudyka,
Let me assure you that we Albanians are not jelous at all for you having great friends like Kongo, Burkina Faso, Nigeria, and even Russia. The big difference between Albanians and Serbs that we are naturally very pro USA and Europe rather than your slavo-Russian roots. We are not jelous even for you joining Russian Federation. We even wish you very good luck. What the Kosovar Albanians want just to devorce you. In the modern world you can't force anyone into marrage otherwise you might be asking for medical treatment. Serbia is living separate lives with Kosova since 1999. In West when you live separately for two years you are devorced automatically.
Czesc Peter Sudyka,
I have nothing against Slavs. I am Albanian and my wife is Polish or in other words Slav. In a democratic society sometimes we have to agree to disagree. Sometimes there might be disagreements between EU countries and that is why Europe is trying very hard to persuade any reluctant country that Kosova independence and Ahtisari Plan is the best and realistic solution for the whole region. In addition Troika is trying very hard to give the negotiations a chance. I personally do not believe in any positive outcome or agreement when it comes to the final status of Kosova which MUST be independence.
I am still optimistic that EU will come up with a common decision. Now listen to me carefully. Each country has got its own relevance within the European Union and that means that UK,France,Germany,Italy are the main contributors to the Union. On the other side Greece, Romania, Spain and Cyprus and Poland with great respect are getting a lot of help from this Union. So my friend let's be real you can not compare Cyprus with UK when it comes to the weight in the European Union. When it comes to Kosova issue Cyprus or Greece can say "No" for themselves to independence of Kosova. There would be on their right but to veto the will of other nations in the Union would be madness, not pragmatic and very unhelpful to the stability in the region. I am sure that Europena diplomats are working on it to persuade these countries. Looking into the history of Kosova without any pre-judgment you will realise that Kosova deserve independece and is a sui generis case. The issue between Kosova and Serbia is the "sovereignity". As you know Serbia has not control over Kosova since 1999. We agree on that. How can you ask to more than two million people to be Serbian citizen after all they have been through my friend?
I see there is a lot of discussion going on. Could any of you AGAINST INDEPENDENCE people give me a simple reason WHY SHOULD KOSOVO STILL BE PART OF SERBIA? and HOW DO YOU IMAGINE LIFE IN KOSOVO UNDER SERBIAN INSTITUTIONS apart from that mithological story of Kosovo being cultural stronghold and all that...I mean...come on guys...Kosovo was given to Serbia in 1912! It`s not even hundred years! Id be happy to get an answer to this.
Regards from Kosova
Congo holds a current UN seat. So obviously u cant see what he is talking about. As does China. Does he mean China is willing to VETO? If so it is no wonder Holland has seen the light. YOU DO NOT UNITE RUSSIA AND CHINA OVER albanians. Its... shall we say... VERY STUPID!
There's gonna be no partition of Kosova. If someone even thinks about that, they should expect Vojvodina to held their own referendum 5 years from now, Sandjak 7 years from now, ah...and The Valley - the very next day. Serbia will be the one that will lose the most. That's why everyone should think twice before even giving any ideas of division. The West, East, South and North of the world knows that, and they have excluded it as an option at all, so...there is no land for grabs or trade in this case. If there is gonna be any trading at all, it will be in political favors, promises, and/or cash. All we can do is wait and see.
"We insist on status discussions, the Albanian side does not want that, rather, they would like to talk about relations between two independent states," Tadić said of the latest developments in the negotiating process, and repeated that Belgrade was committed to debating the status, not post-status issues.
I like Tadic "optimism". He got to be but the above statements are true. If Russia still threatened to stick to its veto in the Security Council even after these so-called negotiations the other superpowers USA, France and UK will not allow that happens. There is a plan B of recognising Kosova independence individually. It will be done individually by each member states of the UN. The fate of Kosova will not be left in the hands of Cyprus or Greece. They can say "No" for themselves but not stop the other EU countries to decide individully.
The voting system of the EU is based on unanimity.
In 2004, France and the Netherlands refused the Constitutional Referendum and it took three years to get their votes turned (after it was redrafted).
Another issue was this year, when Poland, the Netherlands, the UK and Czech Republic voiced concern over the voting system proposed by Germany and again, the issue was not solved.
If there is dissent in the EU with regards to Kosovo, it will simply mean that the EU will not agree to independence. There is a lot of opposing voice (Spain, Romania, Greece, Slovakia and Cyprus), no matter how insignificant you think these countries are, they are a part of the EU and their votes count.
The US has already sidestepped the UNSC regarding Kosovo, are they now pushing the EU to undermine their constitution by voting individually?
That is ridiculous! How many laws need to be broken to recognize this territory that is not even a state! I don't think failure of the EU and UNSC is worth Kosovo independence at all.
Say what you want about Russia, but they are by far the most diplomatic and flexible of the members of this troika.
Let's not sell Serbia short for the sake of keeping Kosovo like a museum piece. The retention of Kosovo should not come at the expense of eroding Serbian political authority, nor should it come at the expense of holding it in name only.
If we use the metaphor of the Albanian mugger robbing a Serb, the Serb here is thinking "if I voluntarily give him all my money, I can say that I wasn't robbed." This is just dumb. Tadic et al, needs to realize that there are more important things than simply keeping physical borders intact. I understand the reason to keep all of Kosovo, but why do the Albanians any special favors that they don't deserve?
Rather, Serbia needs to turn around and say "OK guys, I'll let you have your independence, and everything you've been dreaming of since 1999....for a price." I mean if I were in Tadic's or Kostunica's shoes right now, I'd milk this for everything there is. I would see the Albanians are desperate for independence and willing to accept anything in order to get it. Notice how Pristina rolled over without any major protests at the sign of the Ahtisaari Proposal which in some measure gives more rights to K-Serbs than anyone else. Notice also their complete agreement to turn Kosovo over to an EU Mandate, and allow the construction of Camp Bondsteel - all acceptible if it means, even if only on paper, that Kosovo is independent. I would also see the Western powers as deserpate for a solution, ANY solution that is negotiated and agreed upon, as opposed to a unilateral declaration they know Ceku will announce, and they know they need to follow up on, but wish to God they didn't have to. First law of Business 101 says that any party that is desperate to buy, will agree to any price short of breaking their bank. Rather than Belgrade doing whatever it takes to keep Kosovo, they should see that Pristina is doing whatever it takes to break away, and the US is willing to accept any solution that smacks of compromise. Pardon me for being all Machiavellian this morning, but Belgrade could clean house on so many provisions, gurarantees, and additional rights for its own people, not to mention various political privileges in Serb regions of Kosovo, all for the sake of a "neogtiated" solution come December 10. Rather than exposing the weakensses of Serbian sovereignty, Belgrade needs to capitalize on the weaknesses of their opponents, particularly Pristina's demand of "anything but Belgrade".
EA, unlike Cvele and Jovan, I am not a Serb, I am from Poland, whose country is pro-independence. While I am also a Slav, doesn't mean that is a reason for me to back the Serbs, I just back them because I believe in world order and law, and I prefer their stance.
What I was telling you earlier is that the EU is divided on this issue, and it is not as simple as you think that just Italy, Germany, UK and France decide on everything and the rest don't count, no, the whole union has to come to a decision, and as things stand, there is no common ground.
Serbia and the Kosovo Albanians best get down to some serious discussions, because the world is divided.
It was just weird to mention Congo as a supporter in this issue.
The main players are Russia and China for the Serbs and USA, France, UK with the Albos.
And we still don't know about Germany yet.
This is the game plan. Congo is not gonna change anything. That's why it sounds desperate when Congo is mentioned, kind of like a "filler".
Of course, Russia and China will not keep on with this Serb support because they don't have the power to sanction anyone or they lose out on their own interests, but hey, we got Congo on our side.
Russia can't impose itself on EU, because if it stops the gas supply, where is it gonna make the money from? Will Congo buy enough to compensate for the losses? :)
Oh, and individual countries of EU can recognize independences individually. It doesn't have to be a common decision. It would be preferable, but not necessary.
It just pushes Kosovo and Albania closer to a union though, then we'll see who has a seat and who doesn't.
first of all, I would recommend you to stop this childish approach to compare the Kosovo-issue with any familiar-comparisons... there is no marriage and then divorce... IF there could be a comparison...that it would be Father and kid... but, even that is not appropriate, since kids grow up and leave the house some day...
you won´t leave nowhere...
so much for those really naive attempts to compare the issue to any family-relations...
and furthermore, my dear albanian teenagers... if Congo is a loser-country, as you put it so arrogantly... let me remind you, those losers are recognized UN-members...something that you desperately wish to be, but will never be!
so, in your own interest, stop downplaying others, in order not to discredit yourselves!
"The big difference between Albanians and Serbs that we are naturally very pro USA and Europe rather than your slavo-Russian roots."
EA, no one is "naturally" anything. Attitudes are socially constructed and politically motivated. Might I remind you that throughout Tito's reign, Yugoslavia was a close associate of the West, and played down any ties to Moscow on account of being dominated by the Soviets. Might I also remind you that Serbs throughout history have found equal commonality with French, Austrian, and British ideals as they have Russian. This so-called Serbian-Russian alliance is an alliance for convenience and convenience only. Like you, Serbia allys with the power that can give it a better deal. Your alliance (read more as reliance) with Washington is no different.
If I can play Devil's Advocate for a minute, you are overtly pro-US because the US is supporting your drive for independence. I can understand that, and I'd even respect that if you just came out and said it. But let's not engage in primoridal stereotyping unless you're willing to look at your own shifting loyalties. Let's say hypothetically it were Russia that was supporting Kosovo's independence, and Washington backing Serbia. Something tells me you'd all be blowing the dust off of the Stalin placards your grandparents loyally carried up to the last days of Enver Hoxha's life. In fact, wasn't it Hoxha who willingly left the Comintern because the Soviet Union wasn't Stalinist enough? If Putin were in your corner, you'd be waving posters of him, greeting him in Pristina and Tirana with red carnations, and saying that Albanians have always admired the Great Russian Bear, noting your loyal adherence to communism, and showing him all those lovely pill boxes that dot the Adriatic coastline.
It's funny how alliances for convenience suddenly make people think their relationship was a match made in heaven.
"...That is ridiculous! How many laws need to be broken to recognize this territory that is not even a state! I don't think failure of the EU and UNSC is worth Kosovo independence at all.
Say what you want about Russia, but they are by far the most diplomatic and flexible of the members of this troika.
(Peter Sudyka, 7. October 2007 15:50)"
It will take as much as possible laws to be broken (if there will be any to be broken, becouse Kosovo and Serbia, both were constituiv units of ex Yugoslavia), just to not let anymore , any power in the wrong serbian hands, just not to kill anymore inocent civilians all over ex republics of ex YU.
As for Russia and their dirty cash (as some posters are proud of it), you can keep their diplomacy and flexibility, becouse we albanians are fed up of your diplomacy and flexibility, all of you have shown very well that kind of diplomacy and flexibility
"you won´t leave nowhere... "
Kosovar Albanians will not be asking you for independence...they already have left you and you have no influence over Kosova. As to a seat in the UN it will happen soon that is all about "my old man".
Historically Albanians have had a clear inclination towards the west and US in particular. Woodrow Wilson's intervention saved Albania from being split up by the same Serbia and friendly Greece after IWW. Anti-communist stance and direct support of USA kept the spirit of resistance alive. And lately US intervention saved Albanians again.
It is something very natural in synchronising the most cherished values of the free world and the desire of the Kosovars to be free. To suggest even hypothetically that Albanian would ally themselves with what is for us an alien culture is absurd to say at least. I do not see the relevance of Hoxha being mentioned either. No disrespect to Afrim who shares the same surname with him, Albanians are trying to forget his legacy.
You are wrong! The only pro-Soviet Albanians to have ever been, were some old comunists like Fadil Hoxha, Azem Vlasi, Xhavit Nimani. Most of them are already dead. It's 2007 for Christs sake.
Maybe Serbia should survey the opinions of Kosovo Albanians before throwing wild cards and wasting everybody's time.
Mike - I understand where you're coming from, but would like to make two points.
Firstly, you don't allow for the genuinely cultural importance of Kosovo to most Serbs; this can't be bought for any price. If it could, then I agree that the time is right for Tadic and Kostunica to milk the situation for as much as possible.
But certain things would be more important to keep than 'sell'. I think even most young Serbs feel this way.
Secondly, I can see your point about the reality on the ground in Kosovo. I know that you can see Serbia's argument for keeping the province, but believe that this would be practically impossible. Therefore, I'm surprised that you're not one of the advocates of partition. I just wondered why.
First, when I argue that Serbia needs to "let go" of Kosovo, it needs to let go of what it cannot control, and has made no effort to control. The fact that 90% of the population does not want to go back to Belgrade should be honored, and Belgrade should not have to deal with this potential headache. When I say that Serbia should hold onto what it values, it should include those areas that are currently populated by Serbs, both north and south of the Ibar, as well as the main cultural and relgious sites of Kosovo, such as Decani, Pec, Devic, and Gazimestan.
Secondly, I am not in favor of partition because partition cuts Serbia short. It would be easy - painfully easy - to say "draw the line at the Ibar" and Serbia gets everything north, while everything south is lost. This effectively severs 2/3 of all K-Serb communities away from Belgrade. Not to mention all of the cultural sites you correctly point out are south of the Ibar. Again, why give Pristina more than it deserves? By federalizing Kosovo, all Serb-held areas of inhabitation and cultural importance are maintained and held through institutional guarantees. Paritition gets rid of claims Serbia can still hold onto.
"Serbia's Kosovo bid still tough, but improved"
Ok , but can anyone tell me what that offer is? And not any phrases like "most extended autonomy" , no , what are they exactly offering?
Yeah Funcakes, Be brave enough to mention all other supporters, Peru and Panama. I don't know where you have been living these last couple of centuries but countries like these shape the world. Further, why don't you name your supporters (other than the U.S. all of REAL EU, and the rest of the world minus peru panama and congo, and of course Russia)? Be honest with yourself.
The big difference between Albanians and Serbs that we are naturally very pro USA and Europe rather than your slavo-Russian roots.
I visited Kosovo as a tourist in August 2006 with my wife; both of us traveling with US passports. Her name is irish; mine is Slavic. We were detained at the border and harrassed because of my name, and were only allowed to proceed because I had diplomatic credentials. Ten minutes later, we were stopped by the Kosovo police and the same thing happened again. Democracy and human rights in Kosovo are a joke. Am I for Serbian hegemony? Of course not. But shame on all of you who claim that Kosovo is open and tolerant for minorities - it' not.
"How can you ask to more than two million people to be Serbian citizen after all they have been through my friend?"
This is a fair question, and I genuinely respect your view; but I don't think you want an honest answer. I don't want to minimize the human rights abuses in Kosovo that the Serbian government instituted and to which the populace largely acquiesced; but a bit of perspective is perhaps appropriate.Recently, the US commemorated the 50th anniversary of the 50th year of the integration of Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas. or those who don't know the event, then-President Eisenhower sent federal troops to challenge the Arkansas National Guard and enforce the Supreme Court's ruling under Brown v. Topeka Board of Education. That occurred within our lifetimes, and no one today clamors for the independence of the American southern states, despite the overt abuses of human rights they suffered. (And, if you travel there today, that they continue to suffer.)
I'm all for all people living in complete freedom. But that applies to Serbs in Kosovo, too, and frankly, from what I've seen firsthand, they're an oppressed minority. Fix that first, then there's a basis for talk of independence.
Albania has not always been an ally of the west during both WW1 and 2 they were allies with the Axis powers and Albania was almost to NIS as some have said but it was reduced by the winning side. Well i am still talking to myself and everyone can say independence here there everywhere i will just wait to see what happens. Like we should all instead bringing up how bad it was living under Serbs and all this i don't know how it was but you at least had power and at a time Automony but some people decided to pay back for the what others did to them. But however let us just wait and see what happens all this finger pointing is pointless. More than half of the poster don't even live in Serbia or Kosovo matter of fact never lived there. So those who are stirring the soup keep stirring it.
The ignorance i am observing is beyond anything i have ever seen. By all means, i assure everyone that the UN cant afford to grant kosovO independence as for the fact that if they do serbia will have all rights to take back the serbian republic in BiH which makes up 50% of the land mass. I see war coming. Something pointless. All UN countries, being Congo or Germany, they are all equal. Granting Kosovo independence is going to unleash a chain reaction that will be very costly. Russia cannot afford to lose Chechnya although if it were to it would gain Ossetia and various other states. Russia prefers to keep things settled rather than seeing war. As with China, Taiwan will also demand independence. So if the kosovo albanians get independence, the serbs, russians, chinese, and many many others will have that same right. The US is tredding on very dangerous ground. Unillateral independence is not only a breach of the UN constituion but a breach of internation laws. I by all means am in no way threatened by the stance of the US, i mean a country in which it is true that a large number of the population cannot point out america on the world map. Not even worth laughing at. The only reason why america even supports albania in kosovo is for the fact they want to build a fort, allowing them to set up their "anti-iranian" nuclear missile defences.
I understand very well that someone like Cyprus or Slovakia does not carry the weight of the UK or Germany, that wasn't my point, what I meant to say was that there are a great deal of countries that probably won't recognize an independent Kosovo, how will this look in the future? One day if there is an independent Kosovo will have enough economic stability and sufficient to join the EU, how is it going look if a portion of the states don't even recognize Kosovo?
If the world would agree on an independent Kosovo, naturally I would be for it to, but the fact that there is so much division leads me to question whether or not it would be viable (I do believe there is risk involved, otherwise Kosovo would have been independent a long time ago).
And this is why ultimately it needs to be an agreement between Serbia and Kosovo, I don't believe that the outside world should go deciding the fates of either (we can already see there is division), they can only facilitate/mediate, but there HAS TO be some kind of mutual decision, because history has shown us time and time again that in the Balkans, without mutual agreements between parties, there is war and not peace.
I really don't get why Serbia wonts to hold Kosova with any price?
Really, because the other part of word may do the same think? That is funny.
Kosova was under Serbia for hundreed years. How good was this for albanians in Kosova. Every 5 or 10 years was there ethnic cleansing of serbians against albanians.
What kind of morality serbian politician has?
After killing albanians for hundreed years same as a cows, after destroing their homes and deporting them in mass now wants to keep them inside their borders. I ask, Why? To do the same thing all over again?
That is all discusting, end sick, makes my stomach to throw up.
How come nobody talks obout what serbians did to albanians in kosova. How come not to here what 95% of population has to say. Whole word is sick. Who says we are on Europe on 2007?
Peter Sudyka,
Let me clarify you your comment
"what I meant to say was that there are a great deal of countries that probably won't recognize an independent Kosovo, how will this look in the future?"
The Kosovar Albanian are really not worried whether Congo will recognise Kosova or not, even Cyprus or Greece at this stage. Whoever is considering using the veto to stop the process which has been invested so much would be taking a huge responsibility over its shoulders and it will not go away that easy. The Kosovar Albanians will never back down when it comes to sovereignity of Kosova. To many concessions have been made to Serbian minority in Ahtisari package.
Here is my solution for a compromise. Allow Albanian autonomy on 50% of the territory. Split the province in half along demographic lines, resettle both ethnic groups in their own territories as defacto dayton. This will allow a sense of long term safety for the Serbs as they will be supported by their own army and police. Also, Serbia needs to retain sovereignty over 100% of kososvo. Autonomy for the Albanians is a priviledge and not a right. That is what I and my colleagues predict. Otherwise a frozen conflict for generations is a price Serbs are willing to pay. This is the reality of life in the balkans
Prince Lazar, this is a reasen why albanians in Kosova likes to be independent. Because there a lot of people like you in serbia. Albanians are not afraid of you, they have fought you for more than hundred years even without guns.
There is nothing to stop Kosovas independence. They have showed to the whole word that they deserve it.
"….Every 5 or 10 years was … ethnic cleansing of ….. albanians.
What kind of morality serbian politician has?
After killing albanians for hundreed years same as a cows, after destroing their homes and deporting them in mass now wants to keep them inside their borders. I ask, Why? To do the same thing all over again? How come nobody talks obout what serbians did to albanians in kosova….. "
You, Albanians, keep repeating this wild accusations. You need reality check. Look at the demographic data. If Serbs really oppressed Albanians, deported and killed them in such numbers as you claim, how can it be that there are so many Albanians and so few Serbs in Kosovo? Or was it more other way around, that for most of the time in past Albanians killed and expelled Serbs? Didn't Muslim Albanians during Turkish period had a privileged position and oppressed Serbs (who as a Christians were "raja" without rights)?
Actually Arjan,
I was concerned primarily with the many Serb settlements which would have to be uprooted for a dayton style agreement. I was being generous because this really is a painful serbian concession, that is to have serbs removed from your midst. Likewise, it would be prefererable if you resettled in your half of the province to avoid future problems as the one we have know. I will write letters to our dignitaries, offering this as a suggestion for further negotiations.
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