SAA talks conclude, signing after Del Ponte report

Canadien

Shouldn't Mladic get arrested anyway, regardless of what happens in Kosovo? Especially since he is wanted for crimes in Bosnia and not Kosovo.

Any opportuniy to blame the americans for Serbia's failures!

I see that 'Canadien' is on the side of war criminals and wishes that Mladic remains well and free. No need to blame the Americans who have nothing to do with the Serbian collapse in the 90s. Milosevic is the one to blame. Power meant more to him than the lives of 200 000 persons.

If you blame the Americans, blame them for having stop a genocide in Bosnia.

Canadien

Mladic being free to you serves no danger. What would you say if one of them moved into your neighbourhood, would it still be a problem or you will drink coffee with him?
Also accusing others like Victor said for terror of our nations will no put things even.
Time has come for Serbian government to apologise for the terror and paint that their loosing armies caused to many people of ex-Yugoslavia including Serbs themselves.
Dream of greater Serbia is over for a moment

Ok victor.

If americans were such good guys, why didn't they stop the "genocide" in rawanda or most recently in darfur? the death toll in bosnia cannot compare to those 2 countries.

Not going to happen,.. period, thanks largely to the Americans and their announcement that they will recognize Kosovo.

"Finding Mladic is contingent on how Kosovo ends up. "

I know I will upset some who would not expect it from me but Mike the alternative could just as equaly be the case.

I am a pragmatist and ultimately would had I been the General willing to publically and openly put my actions to judgement even if I knew it was in a politically biased kangaroo court.

Now might be a time for Mladic and the other 2 to appear and defend their actions and remove another pitiful excuse that the EU have to stop Serbia's accession.

Of course if this left just Karadzic it ould place a great deal of pressure on Montenegro who are harbouring him and the US who via their Ambassador Holbrooke cut a deal and for all we know are protecting him given he gave civil orders to general Mladic!

Mospyt,

it is funny but I did not know Holbrooke was a Russian Ambassador who made an agreement with Karadzic and has every reason to ensure he is never found - but then again it is easier to deflect the real reasons and blame the Russians!

I dont sense any change in the political mood nor does it feel as if the arrest or location of Mladic is immiment.

What may happen instead is that one of the other indictees, such as Hadzic, are located and sent to the Hague.

The EU may be happy to conclude the SAA or this will be delayed - probably another topic for with EU members to disagree.

Victor and Canadien,

You are both right but for different reasons.

Victor, Serbia needs to find, and arrest, Mladic yesterday. EU or no EU, this will be a major step in closing the book on the policies of the 1990s, and one man cannot keep an entire nation hostage. On this one point, I share your opinion.

However, Canadien raises a good point. Those in Serbia that have the power to find Mladic will not be so keen to do so if the Kosovo issue goes sour. Never mind it gains independence; if it gains independence unilaterally, Belgrade's first reaction is to turn its back on Brussels, the Hague, and the West.

Finding Mladic is contingent on how Kosovo ends up. Some of us may think it shouldn't be related, but in reality, it is.

You need to ask the Kremlin about Karadgic's whereabouts because according to this link he was saved by Russia once.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6986858.stm
Did Russia bother about international law at the time? Of course not. Russia shielded an indicted war crime suspect acussed of leading the wost genocide in Europe since WW2? And he happened to fighting in the name of Serbia.

However, when it comes to Kosova's independence, Russia becomes the best defender of a non-existing international law. Moscow's selective use to of international law does not fool anyone. For this reason, on 11 December there will be:
YES TO INDEPENDENT KOSOVA
YES TO FREEDOM FROM OPPRESSION

And when it comes to the Kosova issue, many postings by Serb contributors here, which often amount to no more than exercises in self-delusion, are irrelevant. This is because instead of fostering constuctive arguments and dialogue, they preach to the converted and highlight the deep chasm of opinion and of world outlook which exists between the Albanian and Serb comunities.

"This is because instead of fostering constuctive arguments and dialogue, [Serbs] preach to the converted and highlight the deep chasm of opinion and of world outlook which exists between the Albanian and Serb comunities.
(Mospyt, 10. September 2007 20:38)

And your side doesn't do the same thing day in and day out on this site? Please, spare me the lesson in ettiquite and protocol.

Here's a free bit of advice from one of Team Kosovo's more moderate players:

Instead of preaching to your own choir about Yes to Kosova, and Kosova on your way, and after Dec. 11 we will be free and all that jazz, try spending time coming up with your own constructive arguments about why life for Serbs would be better in an independent Kosovo. They trust you as little as you trust them. Rather then Ceku wasting valuable time talking about how Serbia is a danger to regional stability, why not use the remaining 3 out of the 15 minutes of fame he has by working as hard as possible to reassure K-Serbs that they will not only have a role in an independent Kosovo, but that they are a welcome, and important, part of Kosovo's multi-ethnic makeup? How about something constructive as that, rather than chest-thumping threats of unilateral independence and a devil-may-care attitude towards international law? Both sides want to control the land, but neither side has any respect for the other side's sensitivities or fears.

Mike:
“Here's a free bit of advice from one of Team Kosovo's more moderate players:

”Instead of preaching to your own choir about Yes to Kosova … try spending time coming up with your own constructive arguments about why life for Serbs would be better in an independent Kosovo. Rather then Ceku wasting valuable time … why not use the remaining 3 out of the 15 minutes of fame he has by working as hard as possible to reassure K-Serbs that they will not only have a role in an independent Kosovo, but that they are a welcome, and important, part of Kosovo's multi-ethnic makeup?"

Although I'm very much (a dissident) part of 'Team Kosova', I completely agree with Mike's sensible advice. There is no future for Kosovar Serbs except as neighbours completely surrounded by an Albanian population outnumberng them 9 to 1. Imagining they will be better off if those 2 million Albanians al around them are denied their legitimate right to independence is a crazy pipe-dream. Sure, the Serbian army will protect you - like in 1998? What nonsense. And partiton is only good for the minority of K Serbs north of the Ibar who are precisely those who need it least as they will be the most secure in an set-up, and will be bad for the majority south of the Ibar.

However, the reason K Serbs are not therefore calling out to be partners in building an independent Kosova - the only solution - is precisely due to this preponderance of chest-thumping nationalist discourse among the Albanians, mimicking the serbs. More justified in as much they want their own country's independence and have suffered far more than enough for it. But while "more justified", still not justified. Admit they've been treated like trash and make a real super-human effort to win them over, and to propangandise among Albanians to see them as equals and not as collectivey responsible for the Serbian state's actions. That ought to be the absolute focus of the Kosovar leadership, but isn't. It also should be the focus of Serbia's own campaign, but of course is't because t is more concerned with the nonsense about alegedly "losing 15% of its land", intensifying the hostility of Albanians and proving how litttle of a damn the serbian rulers give for the K Serbs.

Albanians will say the Ahtissari Plan already offers the Serb comnities more rights and autonomy than any minority in Europe, and on paper this is true, and something the Serb posters here ignore and distort. However, for the actual K serbs, it is not what is on paper as much as what happens in practice. Ceku alctually began his rule showing some surprisingly positive signs of wanting to engage the serb communities. It seems to have fallen by the wayside. Build trust now dude.

"why not use the remaining 3 out of the 15 minutes of fame he has by working as hard as possible to reassure K-Serbs that they will not only have a role in an independent Kosovo, but that they are a welcome, and important, part of Kosovo's multi-ethnic makeup", said MIKE.
I don't know where you been but every single govermant official and heads of political parties have said this over and over again and even went to minority areas in person and told them so. You are wrong on this one Mike.

I don't see why Serbia should be held hostage to the whims of Carla del Ponte.

The Tribunal can't even get its story straight. Who knows why they haven't caught Karadzic and Mladic. Is it because Serbia isn't cooperating with The Hague Tribunal or is it because the U.S. and Russia are protecting them?

This last weekend Florence Hartmann (ICTY spokeswoman) accused the US and Russia of helping Karadzic evade capture.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2941861.ece

Serbia dosen't need the EU anyway.

As far as I am concerned if the "fantastic four" should volunteer on their own it would save Serbia a lot of face and trouble.
They are seen as heroes by Serbs, but considering all the problems their "dissapeareance" has caused, it would be prudent of them to step up and face their charges. Anyways that is up to them ans Serb gvmnt.
What is really absurd is the fact that there are still people that support them. As usual it is the same people that live a comfortable life hundreds if not thousands of miles away from Serbia and its peoples everyday problems.
To Mike and Dim Tuc,
Your posts are the best ones I have read so far. I agree that the Kosovo gvmnt should try to do more to make K-Serbs feel more at home, but at the same time there has to be a will on both sides to have a head start. Or even better, the K- Serbs should demand that they are treated equal in every aspect of life. But, alas, it is not the official BG policy to incourage K- Serbs to participate in political life in Kosovo, because then, gradually, their influence would diminish or altogether vanish in thin air.
But bottom line is that we should do better, since after all, we have been through what Serbs are going through today, and that is not something to be proud of. I believe that with the first sign that the K-Serbs are willing to really participate in political life in Kosovo and accept their share of responsibilities of making a better life for all Kosovars, it will happen.

I see that 'Canadien' is on the side of war criminals and wishes that Mladic remains well and free. No need to blame the Americans who have nothing to do with the Serbian collapse in the 90s. Milosevic is the one to blame. Power meant more to him than the lives of 200 000 persons.

If you blame the Americans, blame them for having stop a genocide in Bosnia.

Canadien

Shouldn't Mladic get arrested anyway, regardless of what happens in Kosovo? Especially since he is wanted for crimes in Bosnia and not Kosovo.

Any opportuniy to blame the americans for Serbia's failures!

Canadien

Mladic being free to you serves no danger. What would you say if one of them moved into your neighbourhood, would it still be a problem or you will drink coffee with him?
Also accusing others like Victor said for terror of our nations will no put things even.
Time has come for Serbian government to apologise for the terror and paint that their loosing armies caused to many people of ex-Yugoslavia including Serbs themselves.
Dream of greater Serbia is over for a moment

Victor and Canadien,

You are both right but for different reasons.

Victor, Serbia needs to find, and arrest, Mladic yesterday. EU or no EU, this will be a major step in closing the book on the policies of the 1990s, and one man cannot keep an entire nation hostage. On this one point, I share your opinion.

However, Canadien raises a good point. Those in Serbia that have the power to find Mladic will not be so keen to do so if the Kosovo issue goes sour. Never mind it gains independence; if it gains independence unilaterally, Belgrade's first reaction is to turn its back on Brussels, the Hague, and the West.

Finding Mladic is contingent on how Kosovo ends up. Some of us may think it shouldn't be related, but in reality, it is.

Not going to happen,.. period, thanks largely to the Americans and their announcement that they will recognize Kosovo.

I dont sense any change in the political mood nor does it feel as if the arrest or location of Mladic is immiment.

What may happen instead is that one of the other indictees, such as Hadzic, are located and sent to the Hague.

The EU may be happy to conclude the SAA or this will be delayed - probably another topic for with EU members to disagree.

Ok victor.

If americans were such good guys, why didn't they stop the "genocide" in rawanda or most recently in darfur? the death toll in bosnia cannot compare to those 2 countries.

"Finding Mladic is contingent on how Kosovo ends up. "

I know I will upset some who would not expect it from me but Mike the alternative could just as equaly be the case.

I am a pragmatist and ultimately would had I been the General willing to publically and openly put my actions to judgement even if I knew it was in a politically biased kangaroo court.

Now might be a time for Mladic and the other 2 to appear and defend their actions and remove another pitiful excuse that the EU have to stop Serbia's accession.

Of course if this left just Karadzic it ould place a great deal of pressure on Montenegro who are harbouring him and the US who via their Ambassador Holbrooke cut a deal and for all we know are protecting him given he gave civil orders to general Mladic!

You need to ask the Kremlin about Karadgic's whereabouts because according to this link he was saved by Russia once.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6986858.stm
Did Russia bother about international law at the time? Of course not. Russia shielded an indicted war crime suspect acussed of leading the wost genocide in Europe since WW2? And he happened to fighting in the name of Serbia.

However, when it comes to Kosova's independence, Russia becomes the best defender of a non-existing international law. Moscow's selective use to of international law does not fool anyone. For this reason, on 11 December there will be:
YES TO INDEPENDENT KOSOVA
YES TO FREEDOM FROM OPPRESSION

And when it comes to the Kosova issue, many postings by Serb contributors here, which often amount to no more than exercises in self-delusion, are irrelevant. This is because instead of fostering constuctive arguments and dialogue, they preach to the converted and highlight the deep chasm of opinion and of world outlook which exists between the Albanian and Serb comunities.

"This is because instead of fostering constuctive arguments and dialogue, [Serbs] preach to the converted and highlight the deep chasm of opinion and of world outlook which exists between the Albanian and Serb comunities.
(Mospyt, 10. September 2007 20:38)

And your side doesn't do the same thing day in and day out on this site? Please, spare me the lesson in ettiquite and protocol.

Here's a free bit of advice from one of Team Kosovo's more moderate players:

Instead of preaching to your own choir about Yes to Kosova, and Kosova on your way, and after Dec. 11 we will be free and all that jazz, try spending time coming up with your own constructive arguments about why life for Serbs would be better in an independent Kosovo. They trust you as little as you trust them. Rather then Ceku wasting valuable time talking about how Serbia is a danger to regional stability, why not use the remaining 3 out of the 15 minutes of fame he has by working as hard as possible to reassure K-Serbs that they will not only have a role in an independent Kosovo, but that they are a welcome, and important, part of Kosovo's multi-ethnic makeup? How about something constructive as that, rather than chest-thumping threats of unilateral independence and a devil-may-care attitude towards international law? Both sides want to control the land, but neither side has any respect for the other side's sensitivities or fears.

Mospyt,

it is funny but I did not know Holbrooke was a Russian Ambassador who made an agreement with Karadzic and has every reason to ensure he is never found - but then again it is easier to deflect the real reasons and blame the Russians!

Mike:
“Here's a free bit of advice from one of Team Kosovo's more moderate players:

”Instead of preaching to your own choir about Yes to Kosova … try spending time coming up with your own constructive arguments about why life for Serbs would be better in an independent Kosovo. Rather then Ceku wasting valuable time … why not use the remaining 3 out of the 15 minutes of fame he has by working as hard as possible to reassure K-Serbs that they will not only have a role in an independent Kosovo, but that they are a welcome, and important, part of Kosovo's multi-ethnic makeup?"

Although I'm very much (a dissident) part of 'Team Kosova', I completely agree with Mike's sensible advice. There is no future for Kosovar Serbs except as neighbours completely surrounded by an Albanian population outnumberng them 9 to 1. Imagining they will be better off if those 2 million Albanians al around them are denied their legitimate right to independence is a crazy pipe-dream. Sure, the Serbian army will protect you - like in 1998? What nonsense. And partiton is only good for the minority of K Serbs north of the Ibar who are precisely those who need it least as they will be the most secure in an set-up, and will be bad for the majority south of the Ibar.

However, the reason K Serbs are not therefore calling out to be partners in building an independent Kosova - the only solution - is precisely due to this preponderance of chest-thumping nationalist discourse among the Albanians, mimicking the serbs. More justified in as much they want their own country's independence and have suffered far more than enough for it. But while "more justified", still not justified. Admit they've been treated like trash and make a real super-human effort to win them over, and to propangandise among Albanians to see them as equals and not as collectivey responsible for the Serbian state's actions. That ought to be the absolute focus of the Kosovar leadership, but isn't. It also should be the focus of Serbia's own campaign, but of course is't because t is more concerned with the nonsense about alegedly "losing 15% of its land", intensifying the hostility of Albanians and proving how litttle of a damn the serbian rulers give for the K Serbs.

Albanians will say the Ahtissari Plan already offers the Serb comnities more rights and autonomy than any minority in Europe, and on paper this is true, and something the Serb posters here ignore and distort. However, for the actual K serbs, it is not what is on paper as much as what happens in practice. Ceku alctually began his rule showing some surprisingly positive signs of wanting to engage the serb communities. It seems to have fallen by the wayside. Build trust now dude.

"why not use the remaining 3 out of the 15 minutes of fame he has by working as hard as possible to reassure K-Serbs that they will not only have a role in an independent Kosovo, but that they are a welcome, and important, part of Kosovo's multi-ethnic makeup", said MIKE.
I don't know where you been but every single govermant official and heads of political parties have said this over and over again and even went to minority areas in person and told them so. You are wrong on this one Mike.

I don't see why Serbia should be held hostage to the whims of Carla del Ponte.

The Tribunal can't even get its story straight. Who knows why they haven't caught Karadzic and Mladic. Is it because Serbia isn't cooperating with The Hague Tribunal or is it because the U.S. and Russia are protecting them?

This last weekend Florence Hartmann (ICTY spokeswoman) accused the US and Russia of helping Karadzic evade capture.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2941861.ece

Serbia dosen't need the EU anyway.

As far as I am concerned if the "fantastic four" should volunteer on their own it would save Serbia a lot of face and trouble.
They are seen as heroes by Serbs, but considering all the problems their "dissapeareance" has caused, it would be prudent of them to step up and face their charges. Anyways that is up to them ans Serb gvmnt.
What is really absurd is the fact that there are still people that support them. As usual it is the same people that live a comfortable life hundreds if not thousands of miles away from Serbia and its peoples everyday problems.
To Mike and Dim Tuc,
Your posts are the best ones I have read so far. I agree that the Kosovo gvmnt should try to do more to make K-Serbs feel more at home, but at the same time there has to be a will on both sides to have a head start. Or even better, the K- Serbs should demand that they are treated equal in every aspect of life. But, alas, it is not the official BG policy to incourage K- Serbs to participate in political life in Kosovo, because then, gradually, their influence would diminish or altogether vanish in thin air.
But bottom line is that we should do better, since after all, we have been through what Serbs are going through today, and that is not something to be proud of. I believe that with the first sign that the K-Serbs are willing to really participate in political life in Kosovo and accept their share of responsibilities of making a better life for all Kosovars, it will happen.