Koštunica: Proposal means independence

Mr. koshutinca this is your first time that you are absolutaley right, "this proposal means INDEPENDENCE" and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Of course proposal means independence. I do not know where Kostunica has been living in the past few months...well in the world of myths.
There is no other way but independence. I feel sorry that Kostunica is still tricking his own people with weird comments.

The proposal does not guarantee independence, Rice has already stated that publicly.

What it does is that repeals 1244. Which is why Belgrade is opposed to it. And Russia has already said it will not allow a resolution that is not accepted by both sides.

Kostunica: "Independence is irreversible" And autonomy is not??? A Freudian slip? Did Mr. Kostunica reveal his true conception of "supervised autonomy" in this slip (once the international supervision ceases)? Is it what happened under Milosevic? Who can assure it won't happen again, especially with a Kostunica-Nikolic constant majority in Serbian politics? Need more to say?

Iowe,

the 1 billion dollars question: Which is the solution accepted by both parts (any imposition on both sides have to be of course avoided, just to be fair and democratic)? If Serbs agree to sth. and Albanians do not, do you think Russia stamp its feet again? Maybe Mr. Putin should have some idea about that.

Genc - the difference is that Serbia need only retain what it has already; that which is protected by law. An independent Kosovo would mean obtaining something which Albanians have absolutely no legitimate right to.
This is not a done deal.

He said that US and Germany should not take in consideration period from 1990 to 1999. What to do with that, forget about it???!!! Forget the people who died???!!! I know that generally serbs never accepted their atrocities, and Koshtunica is personification of shchauvinism and redicalism. Anyway, we can not skip it like it never happened, and we can go as far as we like on history. We may go to the time when there was no slav in the balkans if you do like, but there nothing will change in serbian favour; acontrary things may get worser for serbian diplomacy. Is there at least one man in Serbia, who can say I'm sorry? Like Eugen did in looked for a man (human).

Kate,

To assert that Serbia has already Kosovo sounds very childish to me. I guess you were an adult in the '90s. You should know that there is no Serbian administration, neither Serbian police or military in Kosovo, and their return is out of question. And I guess you know why.
Laws reflect reality; reality is not shaped by the laws; laws change according to the reality changements. I think you agree to this. Otherwise we should still have slavery in America, apartheid in South Africa, and no vote right for women in Europe. And GB and France should have maintained their colonies - according even to the post-war international law.

Genc - I notice that you have to stoop to personal insult.
I was talking about the territorial boundaries that exist today within the confines of international law.
By all means laws can be changed, but they have to be done so within the processes established. There is no automatic claim that can be made for Kosovo, even though many wish it was different.
If, as being promoted at the moment, Serbia 'deserves' to lose Kosovo by invoking some twisted version of a Chapter in the UN Charter, then the time to do this was when 1244 was being agreed and signed.
The fact that Kosovo has now been virtually eradicated of all other groups apart from Albanians, means that if anything this strange twisting of law should go against them as a 'punishment' for their activities.
By the way, speaking of the standards of any acceptable modern European country, how many different ethnic groups (or women come to that) are there in senior positions in the current Kosovo institutions?

I can assure you if Kosova does not become Independent by the end of this summer, KPC will take over the control.

We will later declare Kosova Independent with full sovereignty. Our fellow brothers and sisters didnt sacrificed themself for nothing and we will make sure so help us God.

"Koštunica further said relations between the Serbs and Albanians cannot be limited to the period from 1990-99, as it says in the proposed resolution, remarking that this was "senseless."

I completely agree; They should mention the entire history, during which time Albanians in Kosova were systematically deprived of their territory, human rights etc. like mentioning period 1918-1941 when some hundred thousand Albanians forcibly emigrated to Turkey, than period 1945-1990 (Djilas, Rankovic, 1981 etc.) when also some hundred thousand K/Albanians emigrated to Turkey and, finally 1990-1999 - Milosevic as the last chapter of the terrorisation of the Albanians.

Kosovo is not a Serbian "colony", it is native Serbian soil! Why is this so hard for many of you Albanians to understand???
And Kostunica states that the west should take into consideration all the other years that Serbs and Albanians lived side by side, even after the Albanians sided with Nazi Germany and began cleansing Kosovo of Serbs.

Kate,

Kosovo is one of the most inclusive places in the region. The representation of women in the Kosovo instutions although not perfect is still not very bad for a country in our region.

Assembly of Kosovo:

http://www.assembly-kosova.org/

In the link above you have the names and pictures of each deputy.

----------------------------

120 Total seats in the Assembly of Kosovo:

100 Seats for the political parties in Kosovo

10 Seats reserved for the representatives of the serbian community.

10 Seats reserved for the represenatives of other communities: (4 Roma, Ashkali and Egyptia), (3 Bosnian), (2 Turkish), (1 Gorani)

Out of a total of 120 deputies 32 are women.

Government of Kosovo:

Ministry of Returns - Serb Minister
Ministry of Agriculture - The Minister represents the Bosnian and Turkish Communities.

Obilic

You might be onto something there!

This labarotory called Myth Limited, did some tests on the soil of Kosova, and they concluded that the soil definetly contains only serbian molecules, and all the plants and trees had CCCC symbol written on their roots!!!!

Nick - thanks for that. I am genuinely pleased to hear it.
Regardless of what happens re. status, these institutions will hopefully take Kosovo forward (IMO as an autonomous province).

The separatists are waving their machine guns in the air and threatening a jihad unless Washington pushes through a new UN resolution. One could almost presume that Hassim Thaci and Agim Cheku were the US foreign policy spokesmen not Condoleeza Rice. The Albanians really need to be brought down to earth. There can be no normalization of relations while the 1990-era Albanian warlords still wield power over 80% of Serbia's southern province. It seems to have finally dawned on Washington that there is no wiggling out of 1244 unless they start treating Belgrade with at least a modicum of respect and commence talks with Belgrade on a new UN Resolution if they have serious concerns about their lack of ability in implementing 1244.

Clearly if the Kosovo Albanians don't get independence legally, they are prepared to use force and perpetuate the violence against Serbia (member of Kosovo guard). So tell me again, Who is the aggressor?

Nikshala, you obviously dont know the term "native soil"...or "native land"...so i'll put it to you this way. Kosovo is a part of the Serbian state. It always has been regarded as a part of Serbia and it always will. So you can forget about that that myth or fantasy you call kosova, it doesnt exist!!!

Kate,

I would like to ask you a simple question.

Why should the Kosovo Albanians accept autonomy under Serbia when they are currently a de-facto independent state?

In case you dont know Kosovo currently has all the caracteristics of an independent country short of an army (which we dont need anyways).

President
Parliament
Government
Internal Affairs
Courts
Customs

All of these institutions currently operate independently of Serbia.

Why do you think the Kosovo Albanians should make these institutions accountable to Serbia?

Some have argued that we dont need (and they dont want us) to be accountable to Serbia. Which according to me makes no sense whatsoever, you are either a country or you are NOT and there are a lot more things that qualify you one as a country besides a couple of lines in a World Atlas.

May the 22nd - only 9 days left to go and no Independence train in sight - but then there never was one!!!

When will the ethnic-Albanians in the Serbian province realise that the best way forward for all in Serbia irrespective of ethnicity is to work together in developing opportunities for a stable and propsperous future! Is it not time that all realised that the hatred is something of the past. The best way forward is through creative alternatives to the situation at hand. Moreover has the penny not sunk that if independence was not given in 1999 it is hardly going to be the case now - hence the ever changing timescales - this is hardly what one would term an Objective/Goal as SMART. Unrealistic and ill-thought objectives are bound to create frustration and demoralise and one clearly needs new leadership within the ethnic-Albanian electorate in the Serbian province who can provide achievable objectives rather then promises that are bound to be broken as it is not their's to give!

Lets move on in a new reality and a framework of peace and reconciliation - maybe Mandela could be approached to show the way forward and provide a better guidance to a solution that is acceptable to all?

Kate, what Nick did not mention is that Kosovo Serbs, under strong pressure from their Belgrade paymasters and fear mongers, categorically refuse to take part in Kosovo institutions. they have been ordered not to accept salaries from Kosovo institutions or even to find common solutions for issues at the local or municipal level. K-Albanians can definitely not be blamed for the Serbs refusal to be a part of the planning of Kosovo's future. A fact which has been recognised by every SRSG so far.

On the other hand, I would not give them any praise for women's participation in government, public life. they are basically not really worse than other countries in the region, but that is not saying much.

European - Sadly, I'm sure you're right, but also in other regions of the world (albeit dressed up differently).
I am actually still confused as to why Kosovo 'Albanians' should not just drop that label.
Why should Albania be relevant at all when trying to gain independence. Surely independence should be from ANY nation, including Albania. Why then the Albanian flag and other regalia? Why not just eradicate the Albanian link and want something completely new?

Why some Western countries who are advocating an idea to grant independence to Kosovo Albanians, do not want to offer them 15 per cent of their own territories - to create a second Albania?

In european's immaginary UCK/KLA 'Utopia' even NATO Pact troops are afraid to move around in anything other than APCs. Eight years after the Serbian Armed Forces left. But he has the nerve to talk about institutions. The Albanians should integrate within Serbian state institutions. They live in Serbia not Albania. Should ethnic Anglo-Saxons in Yorkshire integrate with the 'Brafordar' institutions just because this part of England is culturally and ethnically alien compared to the rest of England. I think not.

Independence for Kosovo

The United States fully supports President Ahtisaari's recommendations. In particular, we believe that supervised independence for Kosovo is now the only way forward.

Link
That is from US State Department, go read it talks about Kosova's future and INDEPENDENCE.

What I’m going to comment isn’t something new. But, I consider as unnecessary any further comment if I don’t once more ask the following; what does the will of two million Albanians mean to Mr. Kostunica? And, how Mr. Kostunica thinks to make Albanians accept his proposal?
Last night I watched the entire interview, and must admit I did not hear Mr. Kostunica mentioning Albanians as a part of the subject. He did mention non-Albanians, international law, 15 % of territory and so on. But in any situation Albanians as a majority of the currently top subject of the International Community.
I think that ignorance won’t in any way produce success, unless the whole game is performed as a lateral goal.

What happened on this site since yesterday?
Most of the Serb participants celebrated and ridiculed the USA and the supporters of Kosovo's independence. Today the tone is more subdued. Did reality sink in today???

To Obilic, "native soil"...or "native land"
Facts on a Brief history of the native land of Kosovo!!!
From before 3000bc to 168bc Kosovo was part of Illyria (In Albanian land of the free)
From 168bc to 395ad it was called Illyricum ruled from Rome.
In 10ad Rome split Illyricum into the new Roman provinces of Pannonia, Dalmatia, Noricum and Moesia.
Kosovo was Moesia at the time and was also called Dardania (In Albanian the land of the Pears)
From 395ad to the 9th century it became part of the Byzantine Empire.
From the 8th through the 11th century, Illyria gradually became known as Albania Shqiperia (Land of the Eagle in Albanian).
The Serb occupation Kosovo from 1347 to 1388 (under King Stefan Dušan)
From 1388 to 1440 the Ottomans (centered in what is now Turkey) invaded Albania.
From 1440 to 1506 Albania was an independent county and was ruled by Skenderbeg for 25 years (Albanian resistance collapsed after Skenderbeg’s death, and the Ottomans reoccupied the country by 1506).
From 1506 to 1911 was under Ottomans rule.
In 1882 Serbia Annexes Northern Kosovo Nis district (at the time Albanian consisted over 60% of the population of Nis and 0% now).
From 1911 to 1912 was part of the independent Albania.
From 1912 to 1939 was part of Serbia.
From 1939 to 1944 was part of Albania.
From 1944 to 1999 was part of Yugoslavia.
From 1999 to present it is part of UN (and under Serbia in Name).
And if you look under pre 6th century Serbian History you will see that Siberia is the native land of the Serbs.

To Princip, “Moreover has the penny not sunk that if independence was not given in 1999 it is hardly going to be the case now” In 1999 Yugoslavia was still around and the US, EU, and the UN wanted Kosovo to be a Separate State in Yugoslavia. Thanks to the Serbs and Kostunica in particular for drive Montenegro out of their Union and To Independents, know there no other chose for Kosovo but Independent.

@european

Why should Serbs living in Kosovo not listen to the advice of their sovereign government in Belgrade?
Why in gods name do you think Serbs would want to legitimize the temporary institutions of foreign occupation by taking part?

Why would Serbs, living within the borders of their own Sovereign State join temporary institutions, set up and populated by terrorist seccesionists, whose stated goal is to divide Serbia along ethnic grounds?

I don't know what country you come from but if a minority ethnic group(which you weren't a part of) tried to divide your country by violent means would you recognize their authority? Would you take part in institutions they set up outside of your sovereign government?

No. I didn't think so.

By taking part in the Interim Administration in Kosovo Serbs would be joining a mechanism set up to promote the independence of Kosovo.

Any Serb taking part, even if this action results in short term benefits for Serbs in the province, is advocating the long term separation of Kosovo from Serbia.

Kate,
never intended to insult you personally. I was just ironic. If you felt insulted I apologise. But I couldn’t help that reading your comments. From them I get the impression that: either you don’t have a complete idea of what happened in Kosovo until 1999 (indeed form 1912, when Serbia occupied the Albanian-inhabitated land of Kosovo, read Tucovic and Trotzky), or, worse, you underestimate that, thinking that just a “sorry guys, we aren’t going to do it anymore” is enough to turn on a new leaf ad forget the past.
Things are much more complicated that then. The practical reason of independence is that 1. everyone knows (in Serbia as well) that the Serbian sovereignity over Kosovo is impossible to be restored (unless with a war); 2. freezing the Western Balkans in the status-quo is no longer possible.
Further, the Kosovo Serbs are refusing to take part to the Kosovo institutions, as evisaged even in 1244. As long as they refuse to partecipate they cannot ask for special rights, that’s immoral. Nonetheless, there are two Serb ministers in Kosovo Government

As for changing the law, it’s enough stating that Kosovo is a special case, which makes a law (and not a precendence) in its own. Every other solution is doomed to fail, you know it very well (as of course the Russians do). After what happened at the end of the last century, forcing the Kosovars to accept the Serbian sovereignity is just impossible (you cannot kill or jail thousands of them to educate the others). It would have been possible maybe before ’99, with large concessions and with Dindic or Tadic instead of Milosevic and Kostunica out of the game. I would wish that human rights prevail always and everywhere over sovereignity: that when a state abuses of its citizens it should lose at once the rights on them. But just tell that to Russia and China, or maybe Sudan. This world is not perfect.

But from your last comment I see you are worried that the majority of Kosovars are Albanians: were they to drop their albanity you would drop every legal argument against their independence. Why just don’t let them be what they are? This was the old thesis of Tito’s Yugoslavia: a nation had the right to its state, a nationality didn’t. I don’t understand what’s your problem with that, given that it seems you were not raised in Yugoslavia but in the West. Would they be different people, “better” people if they weren’t “albanci” but “shiftari” (those were the official terms in Tito’s Yugo to define the Albanians of Albania and those of former Yugo)? Would they deserve independence by rejecting their ethnicity and engineering a non-existing one? Sounds rather weird to me in 2007 A.D. But don’t worry: the State of Kosova (the future official spelling) will be politically independent from Albania. As for the rest, the European pattern of integration is the best example to follow for everyone in the Balkans.

Obilic,

if Kosovo is "Serbain native soil", could you tell me what kind of "native soil" is Vojvodina? Should we reconsider borders from the "native soil" point of view?

The answer kate is, Albanians cannot assimilate. They always want to remain Albanian first, regardless of where they live. That is pretty much the problem here. They are not like anywhere in the world, because they always stick together and try and promote their own agenda. Did you notice how many of them went to fight for the KLA as citizens of other nations? Amazing, reaping the benefits of their home country, yet fighting for their ethnic cause.

Nick wrote:"Why should the Kosovo Albanians accept autonomy under Serbia when they are currently a de-facto independent state? "

and there is the mistake in your thinking...

in that shadow-parliament you can act like you have independence, but in fact you don´t.
it´s as if you forgot that there is UNMIK, KFOR and many other organisations taking care of the whole mess.

what is that "parliament" worth, when nobody recognizes it as such a high legal body?

it´s the same with your flag... every soccer-team got an own flag...does that make it a state?
come to the ground, man.

Is Kosovo an unique case? Let see: South Ossetia, Abhkazia, Republika Serbska, hungarians of Slovakia, Bask Territories. Have any of these territories suffered such a genocide albanians in Kosovo have suffered from 1913 to 1999? Have any of these populations been deported in massively organized waves which began in 1914-1918, 1945-1949 and 1990's, just to forcely change the percentage of the population on the ground? Have any of these territories exposed to a government-leaded program of extermination, discrimination, elemination, privation from public services (education in native language, jobs, housing etc?). And in the end: have any of these territories suffered an open military agression like Kosovo did from 1997 to 1999, with a bid of thousands of men, women and children massacred, killed, tortured and millions of deported with the stupid justification of "protecting the cradle of the nation from terrorists"?
Well, Serbia did all this in Kosovo against the albanians, and all this list makes Kosovo an unique case for which the people there deserve their independence. I am sure, any other area of the world which would suffer such a nightmare from the central government because of different nationality, religion, political interests and other bullshit like these, would be granted immediately INDEPENDENCE as the only solution.
Albanians nowadays are considered by serbs as a second hand population, as they only rented that country. And why? Because having their handicap of comming in Europe only on the seventh century, Serbs are ready to make anything to manipulate, steal and humiliate the people from which they took the country. Albanians in Kosovo are considered nowadays by serbs as a people of terrorists. They dont exist in the population census. They dont exist in the parliament. They are not invited to share the power, even if they are now more than 20% of the population of Serbia. Serbs have not yet sincerely apologized for all they did during all the history of their rule in Kosovo. Speaking all the time about "Kosovo is and allways be serbia", they just show that dont care about what thinks the majority of the population have suffered in that area. They only offend the albanians which are the people they are asking to be ruled again by serbs. But thanks God, now it is not in the serbs hands to decide the fate of Kosovo. Russia will make some resistence, but at the end will accept the english-american domination. Why? Because Russia is not yet a superpower as it used to be when all this mistake took place in the Balkans. Russia is just a superpower wannabe. Have any clue why? What is the language we are talking all the time here in the forum? It doesnt sounds like russian to me. It is English. And it shows influence, domination, power and WHO MAKES THE RULES.
Have a nice evening in Belgrade.
Ilir, Albania

Jovan,

Clearly you lack sufficient information to discuss the legitimacy and functioning of the Kosovo Parliament.

The Kosovo Parliament was established by UNMIK Regulation 2001/9 (note: a UNMIK regulations has the binding effect of a law in Kosovo), it was promulgated by the SRSG and ratified by the UN in NY.

According to that document the Kosovo Parliament represents the interests of the "PEOPLE OF KOSOVO" and its deputies are the "REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE OF KOSOVO.

How can our parliament be shadowy if UNMIK established it and the UN ratified it?

Furthermore, the Kosovo Parliament has the authority to pass binding legislation in all fields of life. And those laws are implemented on a regular basis in Kosovo.

---------

As to this moment Kosovo does not have an official flag. We use the UN flag instead which is hardly a "soccer-team flag" as you put it.

-------

Despite what you may think Kosovo is not a mess, most institutions funcion as they are supposed to (considering the financial constraints which each country strugles with)

George, your "facts" that you pulled out some "albanian" history book are meaningless and not accepted by the rest of the world. Nobody in their right mind would look twice at your "facts"... And one can say that Albanians are a nomadic people with no true homeland!!!! TRUTH!

I've noticed that everytime that whenever one of the Serbian politicians says no to independence, the Albanian commentators start jumping up and down with comments tha lack any facts to back them up. Whenever it is bad news for the Albanians, they are pretty silent. And they tend to not back up their arguments with solid facts, only mythology and biased documents. Why is that?

Eric - I tend to think that for most of the Serbs posting here, and most Serbs in fact, but for those few who see their own personal future there, Kosovo is more about winning a power struggle - proving that the "west" loves in fact Serbs more than Albanians because Serbs are more European than Albanians and more part of the club.

Keeping kosovo is about proving Serbia can do it and not loosing something, some status in the eyes of the world.

For the Kosovo Albanians it is about their daily life - living in fear or making their own future. I think because it is more real and serious for them that it is really hard to comment on "bad news" because it is not just a game, but their life which is at issue.

Serbs in London or Belgrade dont care about life in Kosovo - they care about a land from the middle ages that should belong to them and not to the "other" ones. So it is a strategic game, not to be lost, but with nothing really to win. For the k-Albanians it is all about winning something they have fought for now for 20 years and suffered for, and they have everything to loose.

To Obilic, My Facts are from an Encyclopedia and from World Facts Books; My Facts are neither from Albanian nor Serbian History Books!! The fact that, I cannot read in Albanian nor in Serbian, would show you that my facts are the truth and you can go under Serbia and then History and you will see some of my Facts. There was one correction to my first comment and that is:
“From 1939 to 1944 was part of Albania.” Was not true.
Corrected version
From 1939 to 1943 was occupied by Italy.
From 1941 to 1944 was part of Albania.
From 1943 to 1944 was occupied by Germany.

Know I would like to know where did you get your Fact? Is it the Serbian History Books from Belgrade? Because I do like to read some of them Books if there are translated into English, knowing that thy are for entertainment only and not for Facts.

God bless, and have a nice day!!!

koshtunica: why is now crying for kosova independece seven years later why he did not say something to MILOSHEVIC in 1999 when he was working hard to make kosova independent

sal new york

George, please provide the names of these "books" where you got your facts. Until then, your posts are meaningless! My facts are truth,accepted by the whole world!!!

This forum seems to be for personal aruments between two sides and it dosn't cover the article it originaly started,
evryone has right on their own opinions however most of those comments are counterproductive and anoying.
I would love to see all of us move forward and not backward, talking about past is the wrong way to go into the future, history is for historians not for policy makers. Know my opinion about Kosovo, Soth Texas, Arizona, and California, have large population of Mexican people, in some towns and cities near the Mexican bordier ther is over 90% Mexican population, Mexicans will never try to ask for indipendents from the U.S. maybe we should take more positiv examples like Mexican population in the U.S, and try to make better future for all of us, you can be Albeian, Kosovar, Serbian, Christian, Muslam, Hindu, we are are humans and equal beings, we desirve to have opinion and impect on our own future but we should make it ourselfs and not let U.S. and E.U make it for us, I am sure that there is lots of educatied Alabians and Serbians all over the world that are familiar with the situation in the region and that could come up with a better solution for both sides then the exsiting one

Rade, I think myself too, that albanians and serbs should look for a reconciliation. I am sure this moment will come shortly after Kosovo will be independent and justice will be restored in the area. Kosovo did not belong to Serbia. It was given to the serbian kingdom in 1913 as a present by russians which helped by serbs won the war against the Ottoman empire, part of which were kosovo and the other parts of Albania (called that time Arnavutluk. See "Balcanic travels" by Edith Durham. See also "Balcan wars" 1909 - 1913 by Leon Trotsky).
On the other hand, you shouldn look for similarities betwen mexican population in USA and albanians in former Yu. For two reasons. 1. Mexicans are immigrants there, in Kosovo albanians are autocthonous, descendants of illyrians, native population of an occupied territory of Albania.
2. USA never handled South Texas, Arizona or other areas with mexican presence with such a brutality Serbia treated Kosovo.
After serbs will accept that they caused a blood bath in Kosovo just for the turkish word Im sure anybody in the Balkans knows and which is "inat", than we all can sit in a lovely round table of some reconciliation conference and make some smily pictures to put on the last chapter of our history books.
Have a nice day in Belgrade or whenever you are.
Ilir, Albania

America was concured by Spanish, Portugies,English, German, and other nations from Europe, with such a brutality and clinsing of the natives that the whole tribes were wiped out and they don't exist anymore, but that is not the point, the point is that we should make our own future and learn to live alone since we are neighbors, and Russia and the U.S are far away.
I will say I am sorry for what Serbians under Milosevic rull have done to Albenians in Kosovo, that was wrong and I wish it never happend,then I will give you my hand so we can make peace and move on...
Its your move neighbor

Mr. koshutinca this is your first time that you are absolutaley right, "this proposal means INDEPENDENCE" and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Of course proposal means independence. I do not know where Kostunica has been living in the past few months...well in the world of myths.
There is no other way but independence. I feel sorry that Kostunica is still tricking his own people with weird comments.

The proposal does not guarantee independence, Rice has already stated that publicly.

What it does is that repeals 1244. Which is why Belgrade is opposed to it. And Russia has already said it will not allow a resolution that is not accepted by both sides.

Kostunica: "Independence is irreversible" And autonomy is not??? A Freudian slip? Did Mr. Kostunica reveal his true conception of "supervised autonomy" in this slip (once the international supervision ceases)? Is it what happened under Milosevic? Who can assure it won't happen again, especially with a Kostunica-Nikolic constant majority in Serbian politics? Need more to say?

Iowe,

the 1 billion dollars question: Which is the solution accepted by both parts (any imposition on both sides have to be of course avoided, just to be fair and democratic)? If Serbs agree to sth. and Albanians do not, do you think Russia stamp its feet again? Maybe Mr. Putin should have some idea about that.

Genc - the difference is that Serbia need only retain what it has already; that which is protected by law. An independent Kosovo would mean obtaining something which Albanians have absolutely no legitimate right to.
This is not a done deal.

He said that US and Germany should not take in consideration period from 1990 to 1999. What to do with that, forget about it???!!! Forget the people who died???!!! I know that generally serbs never accepted their atrocities, and Koshtunica is personification of shchauvinism and redicalism. Anyway, we can not skip it like it never happened, and we can go as far as we like on history. We may go to the time when there was no slav in the balkans if you do like, but there nothing will change in serbian favour; acontrary things may get worser for serbian diplomacy. Is there at least one man in Serbia, who can say I'm sorry? Like Eugen did in looked for a man (human).

Kate,

To assert that Serbia has already Kosovo sounds very childish to me. I guess you were an adult in the '90s. You should know that there is no Serbian administration, neither Serbian police or military in Kosovo, and their return is out of question. And I guess you know why.
Laws reflect reality; reality is not shaped by the laws; laws change according to the reality changements. I think you agree to this. Otherwise we should still have slavery in America, apartheid in South Africa, and no vote right for women in Europe. And GB and France should have maintained their colonies - according even to the post-war international law.

Genc - I notice that you have to stoop to personal insult.
I was talking about the territorial boundaries that exist today within the confines of international law.
By all means laws can be changed, but they have to be done so within the processes established. There is no automatic claim that can be made for Kosovo, even though many wish it was different.
If, as being promoted at the moment, Serbia 'deserves' to lose Kosovo by invoking some twisted version of a Chapter in the UN Charter, then the time to do this was when 1244 was being agreed and signed.
The fact that Kosovo has now been virtually eradicated of all other groups apart from Albanians, means that if anything this strange twisting of law should go against them as a 'punishment' for their activities.
By the way, speaking of the standards of any acceptable modern European country, how many different ethnic groups (or women come to that) are there in senior positions in the current Kosovo institutions?

I can assure you if Kosova does not become Independent by the end of this summer, KPC will take over the control.

We will later declare Kosova Independent with full sovereignty. Our fellow brothers and sisters didnt sacrificed themself for nothing and we will make sure so help us God.

"Koštunica further said relations between the Serbs and Albanians cannot be limited to the period from 1990-99, as it says in the proposed resolution, remarking that this was "senseless."

I completely agree; They should mention the entire history, during which time Albanians in Kosova were systematically deprived of their territory, human rights etc. like mentioning period 1918-1941 when some hundred thousand Albanians forcibly emigrated to Turkey, than period 1945-1990 (Djilas, Rankovic, 1981 etc.) when also some hundred thousand K/Albanians emigrated to Turkey and, finally 1990-1999 - Milosevic as the last chapter of the terrorisation of the Albanians.

Kosovo is not a Serbian "colony", it is native Serbian soil! Why is this so hard for many of you Albanians to understand???
And Kostunica states that the west should take into consideration all the other years that Serbs and Albanians lived side by side, even after the Albanians sided with Nazi Germany and began cleansing Kosovo of Serbs.

Kate,

Kosovo is one of the most inclusive places in the region. The representation of women in the Kosovo instutions although not perfect is still not very bad for a country in our region.

Assembly of Kosovo:

http://www.assembly-kosova.org/

In the link above you have the names and pictures of each deputy.

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120 Total seats in the Assembly of Kosovo:

100 Seats for the political parties in Kosovo

10 Seats reserved for the representatives of the serbian community.

10 Seats reserved for the represenatives of other communities: (4 Roma, Ashkali and Egyptia), (3 Bosnian), (2 Turkish), (1 Gorani)

Out of a total of 120 deputies 32 are women.

Government of Kosovo:

Ministry of Returns - Serb Minister
Ministry of Agriculture - The Minister represents the Bosnian and Turkish Communities.

Obilic

You might be onto something there!

This labarotory called Myth Limited, did some tests on the soil of Kosova, and they concluded that the soil definetly contains only serbian molecules, and all the plants and trees had CCCC symbol written on their roots!!!!

Nick - thanks for that. I am genuinely pleased to hear it.
Regardless of what happens re. status, these institutions will hopefully take Kosovo forward (IMO as an autonomous province).

The separatists are waving their machine guns in the air and threatening a jihad unless Washington pushes through a new UN resolution. One could almost presume that Hassim Thaci and Agim Cheku were the US foreign policy spokesmen not Condoleeza Rice. The Albanians really need to be brought down to earth. There can be no normalization of relations while the 1990-era Albanian warlords still wield power over 80% of Serbia's southern province. It seems to have finally dawned on Washington that there is no wiggling out of 1244 unless they start treating Belgrade with at least a modicum of respect and commence talks with Belgrade on a new UN Resolution if they have serious concerns about their lack of ability in implementing 1244.

Clearly if the Kosovo Albanians don't get independence legally, they are prepared to use force and perpetuate the violence against Serbia (member of Kosovo guard). So tell me again, Who is the aggressor?

Nikshala, you obviously dont know the term "native soil"...or "native land"...so i'll put it to you this way. Kosovo is a part of the Serbian state. It always has been regarded as a part of Serbia and it always will. So you can forget about that that myth or fantasy you call kosova, it doesnt exist!!!

Kate,

I would like to ask you a simple question.

Why should the Kosovo Albanians accept autonomy under Serbia when they are currently a de-facto independent state?

In case you dont know Kosovo currently has all the caracteristics of an independent country short of an army (which we dont need anyways).

President
Parliament
Government
Internal Affairs
Courts
Customs

All of these institutions currently operate independently of Serbia.

Why do you think the Kosovo Albanians should make these institutions accountable to Serbia?

Some have argued that we dont need (and they dont want us) to be accountable to Serbia. Which according to me makes no sense whatsoever, you are either a country or you are NOT and there are a lot more things that qualify you one as a country besides a couple of lines in a World Atlas.

May the 22nd - only 9 days left to go and no Independence train in sight - but then there never was one!!!

When will the ethnic-Albanians in the Serbian province realise that the best way forward for all in Serbia irrespective of ethnicity is to work together in developing opportunities for a stable and propsperous future! Is it not time that all realised that the hatred is something of the past. The best way forward is through creative alternatives to the situation at hand. Moreover has the penny not sunk that if independence was not given in 1999 it is hardly going to be the case now - hence the ever changing timescales - this is hardly what one would term an Objective/Goal as SMART. Unrealistic and ill-thought objectives are bound to create frustration and demoralise and one clearly needs new leadership within the ethnic-Albanian electorate in the Serbian province who can provide achievable objectives rather then promises that are bound to be broken as it is not their's to give!

Lets move on in a new reality and a framework of peace and reconciliation - maybe Mandela could be approached to show the way forward and provide a better guidance to a solution that is acceptable to all?

Kate, what Nick did not mention is that Kosovo Serbs, under strong pressure from their Belgrade paymasters and fear mongers, categorically refuse to take part in Kosovo institutions. they have been ordered not to accept salaries from Kosovo institutions or even to find common solutions for issues at the local or municipal level. K-Albanians can definitely not be blamed for the Serbs refusal to be a part of the planning of Kosovo's future. A fact which has been recognised by every SRSG so far.

On the other hand, I would not give them any praise for women's participation in government, public life. they are basically not really worse than other countries in the region, but that is not saying much.

European - Sadly, I'm sure you're right, but also in other regions of the world (albeit dressed up differently).
I am actually still confused as to why Kosovo 'Albanians' should not just drop that label.
Why should Albania be relevant at all when trying to gain independence. Surely independence should be from ANY nation, including Albania. Why then the Albanian flag and other regalia? Why not just eradicate the Albanian link and want something completely new?

Why some Western countries who are advocating an idea to grant independence to Kosovo Albanians, do not want to offer them 15 per cent of their own territories - to create a second Albania?

In european's immaginary UCK/KLA 'Utopia' even NATO Pact troops are afraid to move around in anything other than APCs. Eight years after the Serbian Armed Forces left. But he has the nerve to talk about institutions. The Albanians should integrate within Serbian state institutions. They live in Serbia not Albania. Should ethnic Anglo-Saxons in Yorkshire integrate with the 'Brafordar' institutions just because this part of England is culturally and ethnically alien compared to the rest of England. I think not.

Independence for Kosovo

The United States fully supports President Ahtisaari's recommendations. In particular, we believe that supervised independence for Kosovo is now the only way forward.

Link
That is from US State Department, go read it talks about Kosova's future and INDEPENDENCE.

What I’m going to comment isn’t something new. But, I consider as unnecessary any further comment if I don’t once more ask the following; what does the will of two million Albanians mean to Mr. Kostunica? And, how Mr. Kostunica thinks to make Albanians accept his proposal?
Last night I watched the entire interview, and must admit I did not hear Mr. Kostunica mentioning Albanians as a part of the subject. He did mention non-Albanians, international law, 15 % of territory and so on. But in any situation Albanians as a majority of the currently top subject of the International Community.
I think that ignorance won’t in any way produce success, unless the whole game is performed as a lateral goal.

What happened on this site since yesterday?
Most of the Serb participants celebrated and ridiculed the USA and the supporters of Kosovo's independence. Today the tone is more subdued. Did reality sink in today???

To Obilic, "native soil"...or "native land"
Facts on a Brief history of the native land of Kosovo!!!
From before 3000bc to 168bc Kosovo was part of Illyria (In Albanian land of the free)
From 168bc to 395ad it was called Illyricum ruled from Rome.
In 10ad Rome split Illyricum into the new Roman provinces of Pannonia, Dalmatia, Noricum and Moesia.
Kosovo was Moesia at the time and was also called Dardania (In Albanian the land of the Pears)
From 395ad to the 9th century it became part of the Byzantine Empire.
From the 8th through the 11th century, Illyria gradually became known as Albania Shqiperia (Land of the Eagle in Albanian).
The Serb occupation Kosovo from 1347 to 1388 (under King Stefan Dušan)
From 1388 to 1440 the Ottomans (centered in what is now Turkey) invaded Albania.
From 1440 to 1506 Albania was an independent county and was ruled by Skenderbeg for 25 years (Albanian resistance collapsed after Skenderbeg’s death, and the Ottomans reoccupied the country by 1506).
From 1506 to 1911 was under Ottomans rule.
In 1882 Serbia Annexes Northern Kosovo Nis district (at the time Albanian consisted over 60% of the population of Nis and 0% now).
From 1911 to 1912 was part of the independent Albania.
From 1912 to 1939 was part of Serbia.
From 1939 to 1944 was part of Albania.
From 1944 to 1999 was part of Yugoslavia.
From 1999 to present it is part of UN (and under Serbia in Name).
And if you look under pre 6th century Serbian History you will see that Siberia is the native land of the Serbs.

To Princip, “Moreover has the penny not sunk that if independence was not given in 1999 it is hardly going to be the case now” In 1999 Yugoslavia was still around and the US, EU, and the UN wanted Kosovo to be a Separate State in Yugoslavia. Thanks to the Serbs and Kostunica in particular for drive Montenegro out of their Union and To Independents, know there no other chose for Kosovo but Independent.

@european

Why should Serbs living in Kosovo not listen to the advice of their sovereign government in Belgrade?
Why in gods name do you think Serbs would want to legitimize the temporary institutions of foreign occupation by taking part?

Why would Serbs, living within the borders of their own Sovereign State join temporary institutions, set up and populated by terrorist seccesionists, whose stated goal is to divide Serbia along ethnic grounds?

I don't know what country you come from but if a minority ethnic group(which you weren't a part of) tried to divide your country by violent means would you recognize their authority? Would you take part in institutions they set up outside of your sovereign government?

No. I didn't think so.

By taking part in the Interim Administration in Kosovo Serbs would be joining a mechanism set up to promote the independence of Kosovo.

Any Serb taking part, even if this action results in short term benefits for Serbs in the province, is advocating the long term separation of Kosovo from Serbia.

Kate,
never intended to insult you personally. I was just ironic. If you felt insulted I apologise. But I couldn’t help that reading your comments. From them I get the impression that: either you don’t have a complete idea of what happened in Kosovo until 1999 (indeed form 1912, when Serbia occupied the Albanian-inhabitated land of Kosovo, read Tucovic and Trotzky), or, worse, you underestimate that, thinking that just a “sorry guys, we aren’t going to do it anymore” is enough to turn on a new leaf ad forget the past.
Things are much more complicated that then. The practical reason of independence is that 1. everyone knows (in Serbia as well) that the Serbian sovereignity over Kosovo is impossible to be restored (unless with a war); 2. freezing the Western Balkans in the status-quo is no longer possible.
Further, the Kosovo Serbs are refusing to take part to the Kosovo institutions, as evisaged even in 1244. As long as they refuse to partecipate they cannot ask for special rights, that’s immoral. Nonetheless, there are two Serb ministers in Kosovo Government

As for changing the law, it’s enough stating that Kosovo is a special case, which makes a law (and not a precendence) in its own. Every other solution is doomed to fail, you know it very well (as of course the Russians do). After what happened at the end of the last century, forcing the Kosovars to accept the Serbian sovereignity is just impossible (you cannot kill or jail thousands of them to educate the others). It would have been possible maybe before ’99, with large concessions and with Dindic or Tadic instead of Milosevic and Kostunica out of the game. I would wish that human rights prevail always and everywhere over sovereignity: that when a state abuses of its citizens it should lose at once the rights on them. But just tell that to Russia and China, or maybe Sudan. This world is not perfect.

But from your last comment I see you are worried that the majority of Kosovars are Albanians: were they to drop their albanity you would drop every legal argument against their independence. Why just don’t let them be what they are? This was the old thesis of Tito’s Yugoslavia: a nation had the right to its state, a nationality didn’t. I don’t understand what’s your problem with that, given that it seems you were not raised in Yugoslavia but in the West. Would they be different people, “better” people if they weren’t “albanci” but “shiftari” (those were the official terms in Tito’s Yugo to define the Albanians of Albania and those of former Yugo)? Would they deserve independence by rejecting their ethnicity and engineering a non-existing one? Sounds rather weird to me in 2007 A.D. But don’t worry: the State of Kosova (the future official spelling) will be politically independent from Albania. As for the rest, the European pattern of integration is the best example to follow for everyone in the Balkans.

Obilic,

if Kosovo is "Serbain native soil", could you tell me what kind of "native soil" is Vojvodina? Should we reconsider borders from the "native soil" point of view?

The answer kate is, Albanians cannot assimilate. They always want to remain Albanian first, regardless of where they live. That is pretty much the problem here. They are not like anywhere in the world, because they always stick together and try and promote their own agenda. Did you notice how many of them went to fight for the KLA as citizens of other nations? Amazing, reaping the benefits of their home country, yet fighting for their ethnic cause.

Nick wrote:"Why should the Kosovo Albanians accept autonomy under Serbia when they are currently a de-facto independent state? "

and there is the mistake in your thinking...

in that shadow-parliament you can act like you have independence, but in fact you don´t.
it´s as if you forgot that there is UNMIK, KFOR and many other organisations taking care of the whole mess.

what is that "parliament" worth, when nobody recognizes it as such a high legal body?

it´s the same with your flag... every soccer-team got an own flag...does that make it a state?
come to the ground, man.

Is Kosovo an unique case? Let see: South Ossetia, Abhkazia, Republika Serbska, hungarians of Slovakia, Bask Territories. Have any of these territories suffered such a genocide albanians in Kosovo have suffered from 1913 to 1999? Have any of these populations been deported in massively organized waves which began in 1914-1918, 1945-1949 and 1990's, just to forcely change the percentage of the population on the ground? Have any of these territories exposed to a government-leaded program of extermination, discrimination, elemination, privation from public services (education in native language, jobs, housing etc?). And in the end: have any of these territories suffered an open military agression like Kosovo did from 1997 to 1999, with a bid of thousands of men, women and children massacred, killed, tortured and millions of deported with the stupid justification of "protecting the cradle of the nation from terrorists"?
Well, Serbia did all this in Kosovo against the albanians, and all this list makes Kosovo an unique case for which the people there deserve their independence. I am sure, any other area of the world which would suffer such a nightmare from the central government because of different nationality, religion, political interests and other bullshit like these, would be granted immediately INDEPENDENCE as the only solution.
Albanians nowadays are considered by serbs as a second hand population, as they only rented that country. And why? Because having their handicap of comming in Europe only on the seventh century, Serbs are ready to make anything to manipulate, steal and humiliate the people from which they took the country. Albanians in Kosovo are considered nowadays by serbs as a people of terrorists. They dont exist in the population census. They dont exist in the parliament. They are not invited to share the power, even if they are now more than 20% of the population of Serbia. Serbs have not yet sincerely apologized for all they did during all the history of their rule in Kosovo. Speaking all the time about "Kosovo is and allways be serbia", they just show that dont care about what thinks the majority of the population have suffered in that area. They only offend the albanians which are the people they are asking to be ruled again by serbs. But thanks God, now it is not in the serbs hands to decide the fate of Kosovo. Russia will make some resistence, but at the end will accept the english-american domination. Why? Because Russia is not yet a superpower as it used to be when all this mistake took place in the Balkans. Russia is just a superpower wannabe. Have any clue why? What is the language we are talking all the time here in the forum? It doesnt sounds like russian to me. It is English. And it shows influence, domination, power and WHO MAKES THE RULES.
Have a nice evening in Belgrade.
Ilir, Albania

Jovan,

Clearly you lack sufficient information to discuss the legitimacy and functioning of the Kosovo Parliament.

The Kosovo Parliament was established by UNMIK Regulation 2001/9 (note: a UNMIK regulations has the binding effect of a law in Kosovo), it was promulgated by the SRSG and ratified by the UN in NY.

According to that document the Kosovo Parliament represents the interests of the "PEOPLE OF KOSOVO" and its deputies are the "REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE OF KOSOVO.

How can our parliament be shadowy if UNMIK established it and the UN ratified it?

Furthermore, the Kosovo Parliament has the authority to pass binding legislation in all fields of life. And those laws are implemented on a regular basis in Kosovo.

---------

As to this moment Kosovo does not have an official flag. We use the UN flag instead which is hardly a "soccer-team flag" as you put it.

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Despite what you may think Kosovo is not a mess, most institutions funcion as they are supposed to (considering the financial constraints which each country strugles with)

George, your "facts" that you pulled out some "albanian" history book are meaningless and not accepted by the rest of the world. Nobody in their right mind would look twice at your "facts"... And one can say that Albanians are a nomadic people with no true homeland!!!! TRUTH!

I've noticed that everytime that whenever one of the Serbian politicians says no to independence, the Albanian commentators start jumping up and down with comments tha lack any facts to back them up. Whenever it is bad news for the Albanians, they are pretty silent. And they tend to not back up their arguments with solid facts, only mythology and biased documents. Why is that?

Eric - I tend to think that for most of the Serbs posting here, and most Serbs in fact, but for those few who see their own personal future there, Kosovo is more about winning a power struggle - proving that the "west" loves in fact Serbs more than Albanians because Serbs are more European than Albanians and more part of the club.

Keeping kosovo is about proving Serbia can do it and not loosing something, some status in the eyes of the world.

For the Kosovo Albanians it is about their daily life - living in fear or making their own future. I think because it is more real and serious for them that it is really hard to comment on "bad news" because it is not just a game, but their life which is at issue.

Serbs in London or Belgrade dont care about life in Kosovo - they care about a land from the middle ages that should belong to them and not to the "other" ones. So it is a strategic game, not to be lost, but with nothing really to win. For the k-Albanians it is all about winning something they have fought for now for 20 years and suffered for, and they have everything to loose.

To Obilic, My Facts are from an Encyclopedia and from World Facts Books; My Facts are neither from Albanian nor Serbian History Books!! The fact that, I cannot read in Albanian nor in Serbian, would show you that my facts are the truth and you can go under Serbia and then History and you will see some of my Facts. There was one correction to my first comment and that is:
“From 1939 to 1944 was part of Albania.” Was not true.
Corrected version
From 1939 to 1943 was occupied by Italy.
From 1941 to 1944 was part of Albania.
From 1943 to 1944 was occupied by Germany.

Know I would like to know where did you get your Fact? Is it the Serbian History Books from Belgrade? Because I do like to read some of them Books if there are translated into English, knowing that thy are for entertainment only and not for Facts.

God bless, and have a nice day!!!

koshtunica: why is now crying for kosova independece seven years later why he did not say something to MILOSHEVIC in 1999 when he was working hard to make kosova independent

sal new york

George, please provide the names of these "books" where you got your facts. Until then, your posts are meaningless! My facts are truth,accepted by the whole world!!!

This forum seems to be for personal aruments between two sides and it dosn't cover the article it originaly started,
evryone has right on their own opinions however most of those comments are counterproductive and anoying.
I would love to see all of us move forward and not backward, talking about past is the wrong way to go into the future, history is for historians not for policy makers. Know my opinion about Kosovo, Soth Texas, Arizona, and California, have large population of Mexican people, in some towns and cities near the Mexican bordier ther is over 90% Mexican population, Mexicans will never try to ask for indipendents from the U.S. maybe we should take more positiv examples like Mexican population in the U.S, and try to make better future for all of us, you can be Albeian, Kosovar, Serbian, Christian, Muslam, Hindu, we are are humans and equal beings, we desirve to have opinion and impect on our own future but we should make it ourselfs and not let U.S. and E.U make it for us, I am sure that there is lots of educatied Alabians and Serbians all over the world that are familiar with the situation in the region and that could come up with a better solution for both sides then the exsiting one

Rade, I think myself too, that albanians and serbs should look for a reconciliation. I am sure this moment will come shortly after Kosovo will be independent and justice will be restored in the area. Kosovo did not belong to Serbia. It was given to the serbian kingdom in 1913 as a present by russians which helped by serbs won the war against the Ottoman empire, part of which were kosovo and the other parts of Albania (called that time Arnavutluk. See "Balcanic travels" by Edith Durham. See also "Balcan wars" 1909 - 1913 by Leon Trotsky).
On the other hand, you shouldn look for similarities betwen mexican population in USA and albanians in former Yu. For two reasons. 1. Mexicans are immigrants there, in Kosovo albanians are autocthonous, descendants of illyrians, native population of an occupied territory of Albania.
2. USA never handled South Texas, Arizona or other areas with mexican presence with such a brutality Serbia treated Kosovo.
After serbs will accept that they caused a blood bath in Kosovo just for the turkish word Im sure anybody in the Balkans knows and which is "inat", than we all can sit in a lovely round table of some reconciliation conference and make some smily pictures to put on the last chapter of our history books.
Have a nice day in Belgrade or whenever you are.
Ilir, Albania

America was concured by Spanish, Portugies,English, German, and other nations from Europe, with such a brutality and clinsing of the natives that the whole tribes were wiped out and they don't exist anymore, but that is not the point, the point is that we should make our own future and learn to live alone since we are neighbors, and Russia and the U.S are far away.
I will say I am sorry for what Serbians under Milosevic rull have done to Albenians in Kosovo, that was wrong and I wish it never happend,then I will give you my hand so we can make peace and move on...
Its your move neighbor