Russian ambassador: Compromise or veto

Well, I'm not sure that the Russians would actually veto anything however I think its a good time to bring up partitioning and a land swap again.

Would our Albanian friends consider trading areas of Kosovo for areas of South Serbia?

Let's face it, our two people have the same problem. Our people are split between a number of different countries and the International Community really doesn't care about that.

We should be working together for a regional solution that results in the Right to Self Determination for all of our populations in all the countries in which we live.

This really is a good starting point. If we stood up together on this issue it would show the political maturity we need to have in order to join the EU.

We could have a true win-win situation for everyone, not just the Albanians of Kosovo, but for Albanians and Serbians everywhere they live.

Lets try to have an honest talk about this without all the silly nationalistic rants.

Would the Albanians here support independence for ALL Albanians?

There really isn't reason we shouldn't be supporting one another, we have nearly identical concerns and issues.

I hope we can work together on this.

this is it! russian leaders will stand by what they have said. not like others switching tides where comfort and majority is. and most important is their decision is based on international law.

"supporting one another" is disingenuous after the threats, humiliation, and destabilization Serbia has endured for 15 yrs (illegal disembowlement; rape of its resources; 800,000 refugees; 25% of it's people outside it's borders, soveiregnty for everybody except Serbs; economic and cultural embargoes; bombing of a European capital; breaking of any law to secure more markets and access to Caspian Sea oil).

The West created this mess when it created yugoslavia... and compounded it when they broke it up... Now they can live with the mess they created.

asking Serbia to support the process is like asking a rape victim to help the rapist... over, and over again.

serbia should tell them to go bomb themselves. if they take kosovo away, serbia should respond with an economic embargo.

to ask someone NOT to protect their interests is ridiculous. everyone protects their interests with full force - this is normal.

a permanent security council member has spoken. adjust your politics....

or... alternatively, jump up and down and scream very loud... and then threaten violence... or blow up a schoolhouse... hardly mature political acts... and increasingly shrill and tired).

i propose independence on mondays, wednesdays and fridays AND autonomy on tuesdays, thursdays and saturdays. sunday's can be neutral days with friendly soccer matches played at contact group capitals while the UN officiates.

As an Albanian your solution Matthew makes perfect sense. Now we only have to convince Montenegro, Macedonia and Greece.

Message to Albanians, I know you are hoping that Russia stabs the Serbs in the back; however, Putin is not a puppet of the United States like Yeltsin was. I do not think Russia can state its intention any more emphatically when it says that it will veto independence for Kosovo. What part of “VETO” don’t you understand?

Blag, my wife experienced ethnic cleansing in Krajina during the war, so I'm well aware of the crimes committed against Serbs (I'm a Serb just like you). Both sides here on the forums know exactly what crimes were committed by each other. Both sides need to recognize the crimes committed in the names of their people and to work towards never having that happen again.

Which is exactly why we should be focusing on a solution that protects Serbs in the areas in which they live. That is why the Right to Self Determination should be available to everyone. That would mean protection for Serbs in Bosnia and Krajina as well as those areas in Kosovo with a Serb majority. If we were to swap areas of south Serbia for areas of strong historical importance in Kosovo, then our religious heritage would be protected as well.

In exchange for Albanian support for this, we would give them support wherever they live. Keep in mind Blag, it will be just as hard for the Albanians to put aside their grievances, as it will be for us to do. We can not ask them to do anything we would not do ourselves. It doesn't matter who "started it" or who did "worse crimes", only that we admit our wrongs and work towards a solution that protects the interests of our people's.

We have the same issues, concerns and fears. Both sides committed atrocious crimes against each other. We all know this. However, we need to stand up to the International Community before they make another ill informed mistake, like what they did that led to the original wars of the 1990's.

Now that being said, its may be possible to get Macedonia onboard for this. Think about it, with the Albanian birthrate the way it is, they will be an absolute majority in that country in a few years, and the same could happen to Serbia. It just makes sense for everyone to live in their own country.

The only way to bring down the Albanian birthrate is to raise the economic standards to that of Western Europe, otherwise the Albanians are going to be calling all the shots in the region. So it is in our own best interests to make sure Albania has a viable economy.

We need to figure out the "best" solution for everyone involved. If we want to protect our heritage, we need to do something about Kosovo. Personally, I'm all for giving up some Albanian dominated areas if it protects our people and our heritage. The status quo isn't doing anyone any good, we do not need a repeat of 2004, and it will happen if we ignore the problem.

Keep in mind, the International Community does not care about the welfare of either of our two peoples. Kosovo is a nice political issue for them because they've clearly defined a villain and a victim and it scores them points in their elections. We need to stand together and work towards a regional solution that protects both Serbs and Albanians wherever they live. Already the International Community is moving in to privatize the mining infrastructure in Kosovo to pay international debts. They are ripping off both the Serbs and the Albanians. They are not friends of Albanians or Serbs. We all lose. NATO bombed Serbia knowing full well that Milosevic would respond with further crack downs and crimes. They did it to make Milosevic look bad, and he played right into it. Basically the International Community did it knowing full well what would happen. Then they did nothing about the reprisals against innocent Serbian villagers either. They don't care about us getting along, or they wouldn't have handled it the way they are right now. Is anyone happy with the way the International Community has been handling this?

As Serbs, what do we really absolutely need in Kosovo and South Serbia? We need to protect our people there, and we need to protect our religious and historical sites. Anything that does not fall under that, we should just let go of. We need to focus on Bosnia and of uniting our people. The region has had enough Nationalism, lets stop the rhetoric and focus on what we really need.

forgot to add one thing.... serbia should accept the PfP/ NATO invite if it delivers a favorable Kosovo outcome (whatever that may be)... and then it should walk out of PfP and NATO (an insignificant organization considering Serbia's geographic position). Serbia should help develop the region into a stable trading bloc and forget NATO, the EU and everyone else. Life can be very good outside the EU and... and one need not deal with all their diktats. Serbs need not live like Belgians.... living like Greeks is just fine thanks! Don't buy into the false prosperity argument that gives with one hand and takes with the other.

Also,

Russia did us an incredible favor. Now we actually have a chance at compromise and negotiation, let us use the opportunity and not just waste it.

Serbia doesn't need the EU. The EU takes us for granted and the best we can hope for is second class status. The EU's future is very unstable currently. We need to thank Russia for their support by improving ties to their country as much as possible. Russia has always been close to our country, we need to continue that in the future.

I 100% agree with Blag on no NATO and no EU.

To Ari, we need to add Bosnia and Croatia to your list. We would need to support each other and each other's people. I'm talking about a two way street that benefits us both.

Let's use this opportunity to throw around some ideas and just see what the different sides think of them. Maybe we could come up with something?

That's indeed nothing new. It will be interesting to see the Russian reaction to the Ahtisaari's proposal, January 21st. With USA/UE pushing to resolve the problem, and Ahtisaari's recommandation with neither "independence" (Serb demand) nor "Serbia's territorial integrity" (Kosovo's demand; based also on the Principles of Contact Group, which Serbia has accepted) mentioned, there will be no reason for no one not to accept it. So you have a solution which is not a win-win one, and acceptable to both parts, since no one will win all and the other will lose all. Serbia and Kosovo will go separate ways afterwards (well indeed, they're going it since 7 yrs.). A masterpiece of diplomacy, which is the art of making impossible things real.

A veto will not have any effect! It'll just pave the way for the Kosovo Albanians to declare a unilateral Independence!

Some countries may recognize Kosovo and some may not. Nonetheless, it will never be Serbia's again unless there is third world war, or the entire west's military and political structures collapse at once.

Mathew makes a good point! And if a proposal like this came convincingly from Belgrade, I am sure it would devide Albanians in the support of it.

Can you read? I guess you can, and the ambassador says; ” Compromise or veto”.

You know that a compromise is reciprocal, both Kosovars and Serbs have to agree. If the Kosovars do not want compromise then nothing will happen. Kosovo continues to be independent de facto, Serbia de jure.

RE: Self Determination for everyone else, not the Serbs

Russia would have backed Serbia during the illegal 1999 Nato bombings, the problem was Yeltsin needed money for the failing Russian Economy , and the US obiliged for the obliteration of Serbia.

Dont' forget, it was Cheroymydin , the Russian Special Envoy who convinced Milosevic to sing UN resolution 1244, becuase the Serbs were ready to fight as they soundly trounced the so called KLA back to Albanian and their troop and military arsenal remain untouched as NATO continued to bomb dummy tank props.

Diplomatically, the Serbs have the Russian veto , if Ceku does not want to truly negotiate, than he can forget about an independant Kosovo. Ceku didnt' go to Russia for a tea party.

Konstantin Gregovic
Edmonton, Canada

If Serbia wants to be a member of EU I think they should regonize Kosovo indepedence now before it's too late.

matthew, well taken on all counts, however, there might be another path. consider the following:

1- illicit force (West) only respects strength, obstinance, resistance, determination, and persistence -- not weakness (look at iraq -- am not advocating suicide bombing, but am advocating determined resistance). serbia has better cards in its hands than most think. the value of its "potential" economy is far greater than any neighbor in the region. its economy is ascendent right NOW which means bidders for its assets should take note how they vote at the UN. and the potential value of its "stabilizing influence" is far greater than any other country in the region. these are assets to be traded upon. one need not give up land. The longer serbia stalls (a legitimite and powerful negotiating device) the stronger its hand becomes.

2- giving up land means validating what the international community does not have - a LEGAL mechanism to change the borders of serbia without it's consent. this is their greatest liability. if they had a legal basis, they would have taken it by now. one sees over and over again in their statements the empty threat that serbia must "accept the status decision or else." this is nonsense... and a big ballsy bluff. serbia need not accept anything nor sign anything... particularly with a gun to its head. it's "potential" value far exceeds the value of an indep kosovo. it has a democratically elected govt recognized worldwide. no one will bomb again or embargo again. now is not the time to go wobbly... but rather stand firm and exact a substantial cost for signing away kosovo (if that is what serbia wants). serbia's signature is the greatest asset it has. if they want kosovo, they need to pay a premium. something substantial would be land north of the ibar AND republika srpska (located in bosnia - an artificial country where 66% of the population do not wish to reside).

3- if the west wants to set legal precedent, they must also deal with the consequences set into motion around the globe (only the naive think there won't be any). do not assume they will set legal precedent blindly. they are counting for serbia to "back down and heel" and sign the document authorizing change of borders. the more one articulates the lack of legal mechanism - particularly at the UN... the less powerful the proponents of independence are and the greater the chance to scuttle the impending status decision that seesk to take way kosovo without compensation. this would force them to sidestep the security council (the supreme law making council of the world)... which carries its own problems.

4- contracts are binding agreements and the lack of a signature from a constituent party makes a contract null. one can argue til blue in the face, but law from the magna carta until now realizes this fundamental precept. Even don corleone himself endeavored to get signatures. To scuttle an unfavorable status decision, serbia need only stick to its legal position and force appeal... after appeal causing obstacles to potential investors for the foreseeable future as well as thrufare for those investors.

5- do not underestimate the threat of embargo. If one wishes to export coal (kosovo) one needs access to the single river that connects europe (danube). Certainly small time operators will bypass sanctions, but kosovo canot build a modern economy on black market trade. Geographically, serbia stands in its way. In this forum you will see many who think the threat of embargo is not a significant... But it is very significant.

to the one commentator who will tell me to join nikolic's party..... creating a country out of thin air - means playing HARDBALL -- how much are you willing to pay?

EU will not enlarge again for the next 10 years or so so its completely bizzare to "threat" Serbia with EU membership.I guess Kosovo will be something like Turkish "republic" of northern Cyprus:poor,isolated entity which has de facto independence but not de jure.On the other side Serbia will be something like Greek part of Cyprus:MUCH better,richer place for living then northern part.And at the end Greek Cypriotes entered the EU without problem and without solving question of Cyprus,didn't they Mr Pariz.se?

Thank you Russia and thank you Putin! I wonder how come there is so few "negative" albanian postings all of a sudden??? It feels good to have a big brother. Whether it is in Russia's interest or not, they are the only country trully on Serbia's side.

Look what difference there is between serbs and albanians here in B92.
Artisari was right when he said the sides will never reach an agreement, so that an imposed solution must come.
It was imposed to us in 1912 to stay with serbia, now it will be imposed to serbia,
and all serbs here are talking nonsense, independence will come even if noone agrees, because we are there in kosova 90% and no serb will ever touch that soil armed.
and who speaks nonsense here b/c of inercy, just try and see the reality.

Compromise or veto??? OH NO!!! Self-righteous unilateralism has been dealt a death blow!! Oh well, looks like we finally get to see what Ceku was told in Moscow.

Why rely so much on the russians?
Before the bombardment of serbia 1999 russians were comming up with bombastic declarations against it. Those declarations lead to a deal between russia and serbia for a 1 Billion dollar arms deal. If you might remember the arms were delivered to serbia through Romania. I bet you after the deal was sealed russiand did not care about the bombardment anymore (russian politicians were too bussy counting the money at the party), serbs took the bait, russia did not help at all.
After the Komanovo agreement, the russian troops in a hurry got the first ones in Kosovo, speeding along the way from Bosnia (luckily no speeding tickets issued). They positioned themselves at the Prishtina airport, not for too long right? because the boss was someone else. Then after that they were given a sector to control, just to live very shortly after that, they packed for russia very soon.
What all this tells you? This should tell you that Someone else is couging in Kosova now, that is NATO, not russians, ad they wil never dictate the Balkans politics. That is NATO gepolitical strategy now, russians are gone for ever, and they will never set foot in the Balkans again.
So much for the russian veto.
Bear in mind that at one point the serbian politicians were loudly asking for confederation with russia and bellorussia, and to me that was the most ridiculous statements serbs ever made. The west did not forget that yet.
Kosova independence is more fisible for serbia that the alliance with russia (politically and economically)
think about it. Geographically does not make a sense.
Independence is the best solution for both Serbs and Albanians.
Peace!

Blag,

I have actually considered the ideas you mention and do think something along the lines you suggest could work the way you discuss it. There is strong anti-western sentiment in the world and Serbia could try to re-establish their role as a player in the non-aligned movement and tell the West to take a hike. I generally agree with your feelings and opinions I just word it differently.

However, I’m not sure that is the best option at this time. Serbia having control of Kosovo has not stopped violence committed against Serbians there. It’s obvious that trying to use force to stop the violence doesn’t work, Albanians are as stubborn as Montenegrins, heh heh. While it’s possible to have reconciliation and safety for Serbs in those areas, do you really want to take a chance with their lives? I’m sure some of them are close family members of yours. I think the decision should be based on what is the most likely to bring Serbians the highest amount of safety possible.

I do think it’s important right now to sound out the Albanians and just see what they are willing to consider.

I also think it’s a good idea to directly go outside the bounds of the rules the International Community has set. This would show the world that the EU and the West can not unilaterally dictate terms and conditions on whomever they like. The West is screwing over both the Serbs and the Albanians. It’s a good idea to work together on this and try to come up with something maybe we’d both like better then what the West is offering. I don’t think its needs to be done in way in which we look weak; we can do it in a way where we’re standing up to the International Community.

Also, what’s really the important factor for us here? For me, it’s the protection of the Serbs that live there, and the protection of our Serbian historical areas. I personally, and this is only my opinion, feel that economics and property rights are secondary concerns next to the lives of our people and our country’s heritage.

So I don’t feel the areas that are not a Serbian majority and those areas that don’t contain any important religious/historical sites are really necessary.

I think that’s a good place to start. We really don’t need those areas. We can put those on the plate to offer.

The Albanians living in Serbia have a much higher birthrate then we do. In a free democracy they will eventually out number us and control the vote and therefore control of the government.

So really it is in our best interest to let those areas join with Albania, as well as in Macedonia’s best interest.

So we have some carrots to offer the Albanians and we should talk to them about it. It doesn’t hurt anyone to discuss ideas and just see what’s possible. I already listed some of the benefits for the Albanians, so I won’t go into that at the moment.

If somehow we could negotiate a settlement outside of the EU it would certainly help our cause in Bosnia. Russia would love it, and it would help to rebuild respect for Serbia in the world.

If we could have a rational discussion with the Albanians, I think it might be time to have a rational discussion with the Croatians of Bosnia. If we can get the Croatians of Bosnia on the partition bandwagon, which I don’t believe would be that hard to do, we would have the justification and precedence for defining our own borders our way with the consent of the people that live there. It would make our argument very strong.

Personally, I think its well worth considering if it’s possible or not. If we’re able to unite our people at the cost of letting go of some areas where Serbs don’t live, I think it’s a no brainer really. I’m sure the devil is in the details, and maybe we’ll never come to an agreement, but its worth discussing. If it were somehow possible to find a compromise that gives us this, I think it’s worth it.

matthew, i like going outside of the bounds that the international community has set, but other than gracanica, the most important historical sites are devoid of serbs (prizren, pec, decani, kosovo polje). and gracanica is serb minority if i am not mistaken.

also, to get all those sides to arrive at a common agreement seems to me a bit utopian.

i say serbia should just resist as hard as it can and make life difficult for all.

all their statements warn us against resisting (because they know we can stop development of the statelet thru legal appeals or economic embargo).

appealing legally over and over again scares skittish investors. and economic embargo ensures K's number 1 asset - coal would be hard to sell. to sell it west or north it has to geographically pass thru serbia. otherwise it needs to be sold to albania and macedonia. and to albania there are no railways.

serbs should hold out for the best possible deal and do what is right for serbia (and what is right for serbia is bad for a number of other players in the region). unfortunately, there are not always win-win solutions possible. this is hard and real realpolitik.

Yeah, I realize that the chances of such a compromise are very slim and I personally don't know enough about the economics and population of the region to speak with authority.

However, I still think its worth considering trading areas of South Serbia, like Presevo, for areas of Kosovo like Kosovo Polje and Pec.

Yes, some Albanians would still be living under Serbian rule in those areas. However, if it resulted in less Albanians being under Serbian control, they might consider it as being best for their people.

Offering to let them join Albania proper and to support their right to self determination might just sweeten the pot enough.

Very likely its completely impossible, but I'm very curious to see if this is something the Albanians could be satisfied with.

At least we agree, that if it were possible it would be a good solution.

To Matthew and Blag,

With all due respect, do you really believe that what you are proposing has not been done before. You must realize that negotiations are over. We are now waiting for Artthisari's recommendation to the UN security council. This "recommendation" is the Security Council's way of getting the Independence issue settled. There will be no further negotiations. The USA, EU, NATO and the UN are sick and tired of trying to get the Serbs and Albanians to agree. The decision, what ever it will be, is going to be imposed. Please understand that. Westerners can only be stalled for so long, you both experienced that when Serbia was bombed. The Serbs best chance was lost at Ranbouillet.

Matthew, do you really believe that the Albanians will ever trust the Serbs. Don't you think it is insulting to the Albanians for you to refer to them as "my Albanian friends".

In closing, I think the Serbs have underestimated the Albaians for too long. Also, the Serbs have a self inflated view of the importance of Serbia from both a Balkan and world standpoint.

All that is left now is for the fat lady to sing. This will occur at the end of January 2007.

Have either of you considered learning the Albanian language?

to Matthew i have some points to make. We albanians dont want kosovo partition, and that will never happened.
The west is making a good offer to people living in kosovo and their safety, which is Independence. (maybe not good to serbs in serbia)
"About the albanian high birth rate and they will outnumber the serbs" what you suggest here is dangerous and not applicable to reallity of today and EU. Those albanians you have in preshevo valley they will stay there in serbia, even if they or serbia want them to join with albania. And you serbs should try to live with albanians, b/c they are serbian citiziens and try to treat them equaly. And if one day they are majority in serbia, and they control the government and want to join albania they can do that. and if serbs become majority again the can do that.
Albania is just a country with no natural bondaries, it can grow as the same as it can shrink.
If beleive that making ethnic division serbia will exist, you are wrong my friend. if after many years there will be no serb in serbia because of low birth rate, who will be there?
what will be the name of that country?
my friend it is all about people. maybe how do you know that you are not albanian? and you moved to serbia and your parents were assimilated into serbian and now you think you are serbian and hate albanians.
you must think real and right. everything havs to do with people and what they beleive. an albanian can be whoever want to be and feels albanian. we are not killing or threatening people to be albanian. and we dont try to assimilate other people. its free choice and they make the decision. and i think we should not discuss any more albanian and serbs, b/c if albanians dont want to assimilate in serbian and serbian in albanian, let assimilate in EU values.
Is not the name or history that will prevent a country from shrinking and dissapearing but the people who live in it.
And stop with division b/c some here are talking nonsense about albanian culture and values. albanians are an inclusive culture and not an exclusive one.
and by the way, albanians are free people in their thinking and uncounditioned by customs, religion, believs, or culture. Albanian is an ideology that cannot be defeated, by lies and oppression.
tha's why some people dont like us.

Arben,

I would love to learn Albanian actually, it is a fascinating culture with a strong mountain warrior type tradition and would probably help me in understanding my own Montenegrin roots .

And no I don’t think its insulting for me to refer to you all as friends and I’m sorry you seem incapable of seeing people as people, and not as Serbs or Albanians. Its always the common people who suffer as a result of this, you’re clearly educated and it’s a shame you don’t take into consideration the lives of innocent people who live there and want an end to the cycle of violence. If all Albanians feel the way you do, you're only strengthening the argument for the partition of Kosovo. It sounds to me as if you are against any sort of reconciliation ever. Do you really expect the Serbs of Kosovo to feel safe if you hold those types of opinions?

If Germany can reconcile with the nations it devastated in its many wars, I believe someday Albanians will trust the Serbs. The crimes of the Germans in WWII were far worse atrocities than anything the Serbs committed (Not to belittle the the suffering of the Albanian people in 1999, but you weren't sent to the gas chambers by the millions like the Jews were). Would you support never trusting or dealing with the Germans again? I think we all agree that would be a rather silly position to take. I think you will find that if both Serbia and Albania join the EU that we will have more common interests with each other then we will with the rest of Europe.

I’ve been called a traitor by nationalistic elements of Serbian society after appearing on Bosnian television discussing my humanitarian work with Bosniaks from Sarajevo. If I can make strong friendships with Bosnian Muslims, then I see no reason not to seek out moderate Albanians to ask their views and opinions. I am sorry that segments of your population are not interested in negotiations or in repairing relations between our two peoples. However, I will continue to reach out to the Albanian community to try to sound out ideas that might be a true compromise. To flat out refuse to negotiate or consider the plight of the Albanians in areas other then Kosovo is a disservice to your own people. Dealing with Kosovo in a vacuum without taking other areas into consideration is a recipe for failure.

I do not recall the idea of a land swap, or the suggestion that we support each other's Right to Self Determination being done before. These ideas are outside the boundaries the International Community has set for discussion.

I also do not agree the time for negotiation is over. Whatever Ahtisaari suggests, I can guarantee that his prime concern will be what's best for the EU and not what's best for the Albanians or the Serbs. As I've said before, look at what they are currently doing. Selling off the mineral wealth to foreign investors and pocketing the money, all in the name of Free Market Capitalism. Now is the best time to look for a solution that offers more to both the Serbs and the Albanians.

I realize my comments on the birthrate have nationalistic overtones to it, but those comments were directed towards nationalistic elements of the Serbian population and worded in such a way as to appeal to them. I apologize if you found them offensive, but it is a sound argument for allowing Albanians in Serbia and Macedonia to join with Albania. Clearly such opinions have been used in the past to justify ethnic cleansing and I in no way condone those types of actions by either side.

How do I know my family were not Albanian originally? I don’t. I’m Montenegrin, from a mixed clan. So chances are I do share blood with the Albanian people. Montenegrin and Albanian culture and traditions are so nearly identical there has to be a relationship between the two. We should empathize our similarities and not our differences. I do not hate Albanians, and nothing I've said would indicate that in any way. I am completely at a loss as to why you would think that? My love for Serbia and its heritage does not mean a hatred for all things Albanian. It seems to me that maybe you would like it if all Serbians were to hate all Albanians? Clearly, you are "projecting" and assuming my opinions on the relationship of our two peoples mirror yours. I assure you that is not the case.

In addition, I do in fact know my family history. My family on my grandmother's side are descended from the Nemanja dynasty and we were Knez's in Risan since the 10th Century. My family founded the first Library in Beograd, and performed in the first play conducted in the Serbian language in Risan in 1851. We've built monasteries and conducted many other acts of philanthropy. I am very comfortable with the role my family has played in the History of the Serbian people. One of the main reasons I get a good laugh out of being called a traitor to the Serbian people.

Just out of curiosity SHQIPE, you say the Albanians of Kosovo do not want partition of Kosovo, but what is the reasoning behind that statement? Is it merely because you would like to annoy the Serbs and pay them back a little for everything they have done to your people, or is it based on some valid economic or social concern? While revenge seems to be common currency in the Balkans, I do not personally believe decisions based on those concepts are healthy for the future relations of our two people. While I understand why you are upset, in order to end the cycle of violence for our future generations, we need to move beyond revenge and look at what we need to do to ensure the safety of both our people in the future.

I personally see a serious flaw and contradiction in many of the arguments that the Nationalistic Albanians seem to profess. On the one hand, they insist publicly on a multi-ethnic composition for Kosovo, and that partition would not be acceptable, but on the other hand, they constantly say they could never trust Serbians and that negotiation with them is impossible. I do not see how the Serbs of Kosovo could be comfortable and feel safe living in conditions like that.

Hello Matthew,
There are many things that you seem to assume to be true about Albanians that are simply false. Perhaps you have not met many Albanians. However, this is probably not your fault. I will attempt to address a few of your mistaken views about Albanians.

1. Most Albanians do not believe in forming a "Greater Albania". That is a concept that most Serbs would like to see for themselves, i.e. the creation of a Greater Serbia. As a matter of fact, historically, the Serbs have started many wars to achieve this dream. Fortunately, they lost most of those wars.

2. The region of Kosova is clearly defined and has definite borders. Therefore, any attempt to change these borders would set a precedent, which, as an abstract concept, both the Russians and the Serbs are violently opposed to. The Albanians only wish to keep what is historically theirs. The Albanians/Illirians inhabited what is now called Kosova long before the appearance of Slavs on the Balkan Peninsula. Perhaps you have not read Noel Malcom's "KOSOVO: A Short History" or Babara Jelevic's "A History of the Balkans" or other histories by international scolars.

3. You mention Germany as an example of a country that went to war with its neighbors, but now has reconciled with those countries that it devastated during WW II. What you failed to mention was that after WW II, there were the Nuremburg Trials and then a slow and painful period of de-Natzification of the German populace. Are the Serbs ready to go through something like this? Some how I doubt it!

I am anxious to here your response.

Mathew, it's nice to see someone reasonable from the serb side besides the usual army of haters. As an Albanian, my opinion would be that yes, a land swap could work, provided that both parties were willing to be fair and just to each-other. And it would be a good thing both for Serbia and Kosova. Good fences make good neighbors.
You say that the devil is in details. I would say that the details in this case are the problem to be solved. There have been over the many years of Yugoslavia, countless projects from the serb side on how to partition Kosova, but they were all so unrealistic, that the Albanians simply laughed them off. If you're interested I can tell you what I personally would find a fair land swap. But realistically, looking at the politics in Belgrade and the politics in Prishtina I don't think it will happen.

I have not had the pleasure of meeting many Albanians, which is unfortunate. Luckily where I live there are at least many Bosniaks and Croatians, many of which are my friends as we have more in common then different here in the land of immigrants (USA). Precisely why I have posted on this site in the hopes of learning more of the Albanian perspective.

I do not like the term Greater Serbia or Greater Albania. It invokes images of seizing land unjustly through violence and has strong negative connotations with just a scent of Nazi Germany. I do believe that the Right to Self Determination is the best thing we have currently, although I agree its outdated, enforced selectively, and encourages ethnic cleansing and genocide. Besides its not very practical. Its exactly like a fractal design closing in on itself without end.

However, being that the Right to Self Determination is the current standard for determining human rights, I see nothing politically incorrect in supporting it.

Both Albanians and Serbians are divided among different nations and have suffered discrimination as minorities in some of those countries.

You are absolutely correct in that the vast majority of Serbians I have spoken with want to live in a united country. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. However, I will agree that engaging in ethnic cleansing, mass murder and rape are not appropriate ways to promote these desires. I do believe the brutality of the region is diminishing and although the crimes committed during the 90’s were atrocious by modern sensibilities, they were an improvement compared to some of the events that occurred during WWII. Hopefully the world was outraged enough at this recent behavior that it will not approach the level we’ve seen in the recent past if it were to occur again.

I can only assume the Albanians of South Serbia would like the option to live in union with Albania, as they appear on the surface to feel they are an oppressed minority, at least we seemed to be led to believe this here in the West. I never intended to imply that they would resort to violence to do so. I have exactly zero knowledge about how the people of this region truly feel outside of a few statements I’ve read from their leaders on this website B92.

So yes, I am curious to know if that is something the Albanians living in South Serbia would be interested in? IF it could be done peacefully and with the consent of all involved, Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, and of course the region itself. To me it occurred that it might possibly be the compromise we were all looking for.

Of course I could be completely mistaken, the Albanians of South Serbia might very well want to remain within Serbia. If that truly is indeed the case, then it isn’t worthy of discussion I suppose. I would like to know why they would want to stay, would it be for economic reasons or something?

It seemed at least some people thought the idea of some sort of compromise or negotiation was worth pursuing or discussing. We should try to engage in something constructive I think.

However, since most of the points made here are not directed towards compromise or negotiation, I thought it would be my place to start some discussion of that, especially since the subject of this article was compromise and negotiation.

If you have some construction suggestions on possible points to start with, I would greatly appreciate an intelligent educated opinion from an Albanian, as you are obviously well read.

Are the Serbs ready to go through a serious Nuremberg type trial? While we all know the Hague is a ineffective bumbling joke bringing satisfaction to no one. Politically, probably the Serbs can not, that chance may have died with Đinđić. However, since this is all make believe, lets assume the Serbian government is willing and active and making real progress doing this? Would then you support investigations into possible hate crimes committed against Serbians? Or is there some other act of reconciliation you would consider? Or something else tangible you would like to see before you’d be willing to negotiate or compromise? Or do you think talking with the Serbs about anything, Kosovo, South Serbia or the weather is a waste of time? Even hypothetically on a website?

Perhaps I did read Noel Malcolm’s book?

I found his research into the region fascinating and extremely in-depth. His linguistic history is very impressive, although I have to admit that is a subject in which my skills are lacking. He cites his sources and provides plenty of material. Much information that is not normally available in English can be found there. I would say its recommended reading for anyone truly interested in the subject, but not for the novice reader. The vast amount of documentation and complex discussion on the subject is enough to boggle the mind, and at times he even appears to have boggled his own. He has the tendency to cite extremely varying numbers, facts and versions of events to compare, then arbitrarily deciding which of those versions or numbers are the one true and absolute reality using at times rational that appears to be in conflict with his earlier reasoning. He does a marvelous job of citing sources from all sides and providing a vast wealth of information, however he should stay away from making solid conclusions and let the readers decide on their own from the evidence he presents. I also believe he has a tendency to minimalize or simply ignore some events in which Serbians were abused. However, I’m fairly sure the crimes committed against Albanians in the region he cites did occur, I am in no way a denier that atrocities have happened and have happened for a while now. Nor do I deny a lengthy presence of the Albanian population in the area. I live in the US, so 600 years seems just as long as 6000 years to me, appears to me like both Serbs and Albanians have been there longer then their own written languages.

Unfortunately historians should not go into a project trying to prove a particular point or support a political view. However, history books have a tendency to reflect the time period and culture in which they were written, they do after all have to sell them to the public. Reading history books from right before, during or after major wars and conflicts is an amusing hobby of mine. This is an excellent book, but it does engage in propaganda and the reader should be aware that the writer is biased to an extent.

I’ve read enough not to recall all the titles and authors off the top of my head, but if you recommend Jelevic I’ll check it out. It sounds familiar. I’ve even read Tudjman. It is always good to understand the perspective of others.

King Zog rocks BTW, totally fun reading about him.

At least Serbs and Albanians have one thing in common, a love of history eh? I’m sure we can agree on that.

Or maybe that love of history is the core of our problems and we need to start looking forward and not behind us. Wars are now fought economically, we need to get with the program or the EU will swallow us both. It really is as simple as that.

You know, basically I’m just a reasonable guy who just cares about his heritage, and it just tears me up what we’re doing to each other over there. Honestly it just seems so damn pointless and rather self destructive for all involved. I know with my background and upbringing that I’ll never truly understand what its like out there or to grow up like that. So I do apologize to anyone on either side of the issue whom I may have offended by my comments.

Driton,

I agree with your assessment of the current political situation between Pristina and Belgrade. However, that shouldn’t dissuade us from discussing ideas and compromise.

If just one person’s mind is changed in regards to how they view members of the other population, I believe this would be a success. The best we may hope for at this time is baby steps towards reconciling our two people’s. Starting the process at the grass roots level is always a good thing.

As far as the details go, I think the concerns would fall into three categories.

Existing population, economic value, and the presence of historical/religious sites. I personally would like access to maps comparing these three factors. If anyone has cites to webpages with such information, please post.

I think the issues in regards to population are fairly straightforward and easy to establish and would be the starting point for any discussions.

The major mineral wealth in the area was already sold off to foreign investors, so that may serve to miminalize the issues relating to that.

The major sticking point would probably be with what to do with those areas in Kosovo that have a strong historical importance to the Serbs, yet contain a majority Albanian population.

I’ve seen some maps indicating the locations of churches and Serbian monuments, and its spread over a fairly large portion of the center of Kosovo, and does not seem to yield to easy partition. I have to admit complete ignorance of which of these sites are truly important, or what their population composition might be.

I believe the Serbs would have to seriously consider what sites are truly needed in order to represent our heritage. I believe the Serbs should also consider physically moving some sites and/or monuments. The final area should not exceed the geographic size, economic importance, or population density of those areas in South Serbia that are offered for swapping. Again, I admit to complete ignorance of the makeup and composition of the population and economics of South Serbia.

So maybe the conflicting interests for those areas are too high to overcome. However, since I do not personally know the answer to that, I thought I’d bring it up in the hopes finding something useful that would in fact be acceptable to both sides.

Think of Balkan Politics as a Turkish Bazaar, no matter how laughable the previous offers coming from the Serbian side, its always useful to haggle, you might get a good deal.

Driton, I would be very much interested in what you would consider to be fair or reasonable. The free exchange of thoughts and ideas is always a positive endeavor and would very much serve to further my knowledge of this often tragically misunderstood part of the world.

Hi Mathew,

I agree with you that small steps at this point are the best we can do to at least normalize the relationship betw Kosova and Serbia, so that we can talk as neighbors and resolve some immediate issues (such as minorities) from which both countries can benefit. Then, I believe we can tackle the long and slow process of addressing and recognizing the crimes and injustices of the past, and take measures to eradicate the hateful nationalism that has caused so much harm in the past.

I also agree with you regarding the three categories of concerns. Each side throws exagerated numbers around, but I'd like to refer to wikipedia, for ballpark figures of populations in South Serbia and North Kosova. There are three regions in South Serbia that have ethnic Albanians: Presheva, Bujanovc and Medvedja with respectively 90%,55% and 28% of the population of them being Albanian and three regions in North Kosova with a majority ethnic Serbs: Leposavic, Zubin Potok and Zvecan with respectively 94%, 92% and 72% of the population being Serbian and Mitrovica where although Albanians have 81% of the population, Serbs are mostly located north of Ibar. There are experts on both sides that know the situation on the ground better, and setting up new borders that correspond to the ethnic makeup of the region shouldn't be too hard. For cases where Albanians or Serbs would still end up on the "wrong" side of the border (I say this for the lack of a better term), and would like to relocate, a voluntary land swap program could be set up to match up potential candidates, and measures could be taken to make this process peaceful, fair and orderly, or countries can reimburse people that wish to leave on their free will, for the fair, market-based value of the land and property.

And if there would still be Albanians that would like to stay in South Serbia or viceversa, both countries should take measures to provide for these peoples safety, and their integration in the local communities. The thing I hate the most are barbed-wired communities, these are totally wrong in so many aspects, first for the people who live there and are shameful for the country that has them. They so much remind me of the movie "Underground", imagine to be born or grown up in such communities, what kind of mentality one would develop. On the other hand, people wanting to stay would have to recognise the country where they live in and their institutions.

As for the mineral wealth of north Kosova, some of it was sold off, but some not, and for Albanians would be very hard to give it up as it's the only mineral wealth Kosova has, there are tax revenues, future investments, jobs etc. That's where Albanians would have to bite the bullet, and let those areas go. In return, Serbs would have to recognize full sovereignty of Kosova for the whole area south of Ibar. Even over the areas with Serbian churches or historical monuments. Kosova can not and should not be a country looking like a swiss cheese, with areas that it's government can not control. That is the give and take that I see as realistic and fair for both sides. I know that for many Albanians, to volunteer losing a great source of revenue for the new country, would be imposible to imagine as I know that for many Serbs to hand over their medieval churches to Albanians to administer would amount to a sacrilege.

To Albanians I would say that keeping those areas would mean to spend so much energy in the future to deal with and administer them, and they have the potential of becoming a source of perpetual conflict betw kosovars and the serbian minority. To Serbs, I would say that Albanians were the ones that protected these sites for 500 years. They didn't distroy them and that's why they are still intact. They can be turned into world heritage sites and protected and administered by both UNESCO and Kosova's Ministry of Culture. The Ministry of Culture would have to provide the funds for their maintenace and upkeep, and Serbian citizens can come and visit them when they wish.

But will Albanians protect them? I believe they will. It is necessary for Serbs to understand justifiable Albanian fears, when medieval churches were used as a political instrument and a reason to keep Albanians under the heel. Should those monuments cease to be used for their political and strategic value, those fears will not have a reason to be also. Is also important to distinguish between true medieval historical objects, built mostly prior to 1912 and those churches that were build mostly in the 80s and 90 in a frenzy of church-building for propagandistic value, to change the ethnic appearance of the province. We can ponder over their meaning, what history will say about them? That "this church was build as a precursor to Milosevic's ethic cleansing operations, and not as a monument to God"? But I'm about preserving them all. And for the true historical, medivial churches, their value will also be greater when they are finally seen as simply for what they are: as monuments to the holy devotion and beautiful objects of art, culture and history. As a testament of our shared past, not as sign of ones domination over the other. By accepting and protecting them, Kosova and the kosovar society will only be more beautiful. And by letting kosovars to administer them, the Serb society will also be making the first step towards building of trust, towards letting go of useless paranoias, and medieval mentalities. Serbia's heart is not in Kosova, Serbia's heart is in Belgrade where most of its people live and thrive. And likewise, it's future is not on the ancient mythologies, but on the progress of the society.

Absolutely one of the most reasonable discussions on the topic.

I would go a step farther and say anyone who would need to re-locate (on either side) should get more then fair market value of their property and generous assistance in starting a new business and training in a new job skill set. Some might be happy to move if it seriously improved their economic level and opportunity for a better future (Seaside Villa on the Coast perhaps?).

I would like to see Kosovo retain its mineral wealth if somehow feasible. I think the country should have as viable an economy as possible. Happy, content and affluent people have much to lose, while poor underprivileged and oppressed people have nothing to lose, except their lives, something people in the Balkans seem all too willing to give up at times. The best thing us Serbs can do is to promote the economy for Albanians. Allowing Kosovo to join with Albania could help in this. I believe Albania does have the potential to be a strong tourism based economy once they stabilize and modernize a bit (Something much of the former Ottoman areas in the Balkans seem to be suffering from). My understanding is the Albanians in Kosovo have some very educated individuals, but without the opportunity to find work that matches their skill set. This only fosters discontent. However, if Kosovo were to give up its mineral wealth, that would be a hefty compromise indeed, and I acknowledge your willingness to consider it.

I believe that if the International Community had focused on the economic issues, then the "Standards Before Status" ideal might have had a chance of success. I personally was very disheartened when they gave up on Standards and human rights as an important issue. I believe that happy prosperous Albanians would be too busy making money to focus on vengeance and punishment. Another opportunity tragically lost.

If Kosovo's mineral wealth were to go to the Serbs, I believe something equal in value for the economy should be offered in exchange, if at all possible. A sound economy is absolutely vital to the area's interest if peace is truly to have a solid foundation.

Independence is not a magic bullet to cure all Kosovo's ills, whatever the final status is to be, adequate living conditions for all those involved is absolutely essential in maintaining peace.

Your comments in regards to Serbian Cultural Monuments is extremely rational. Myself, being a member of the Serbian Diaspora, hold those areas in high esteem, and unfortunately that is one of the issues that is most dear to my heart. However, that is speaking emotionally rather then practically, something the region has seen too much of.

My wish would be to somehow preserve at least some of these monuments within Serbia proper. Whether our feelings towards Kosovo are "Myth" or reality, for us that area represents our Serbian heritage. I would like to see at least some of the truly important monuments retained. Even if only a small number. I think that if the Serbians were to have something to hold onto that could represent the idea of the "Kosovo Myth" (I'm using the term loosely here), that it might go far in placating many of the regular Serbian folk who care about their past. I think this is one of the issues that upsets Serbians the world over, the idea of "losing" Kosovo "again". Preserving every single church regardless of its importance clearly should not be considered.

I believe and hope that at least one truly historical area might be found that represents Serbian culture and would still be feasible in a discussion on partition. Even one area might be able to satisfy this craving, if not for our current population, surely for our future generations.

However, I agree with you, that turning Kosovo into Swiss Cheese is not good for the future stability of the region. Not knowing enough about the actual makeup of the region, I really have no idea if such an area could be found. Maybe someone here would know?

Emotionally speaking, I think it would be very hard for me to support giving up all areas of historical importance in Kosovo. I would almost prefer Essential Autonomy to that, even knowing that only prolongs the terrible state of Limbo the region is stuck in, increasing the chance of violence and destruction. I was born in the US, my family came here a long time ago, yet our myths and legends are still important to me. Whatever the original reality of Kosovo was, under the Ottomans it came to symbolize everything about our struggle and our heritage, and for hundreds of years it was Kosovo that we sang about, wrote poetry about, and dreamed about. Being that I am as far removed from Nationalism as a Serb can get, I can only imagine how some Serbs feel. However, repressing people or murdering innocent civilians is not acceptable, and unfortunately I feel there is a lot of validity to how Albanians feel they have been treated. For me, I think Kosovo's monuments are so important that I'd trade most of Serbia for them, heh heh.

If the Serbs had a policy of inclusion in Kosovo, and had welcomed Albanians into society and the economy and made Kosovo into an extremely prosperous area, I think the Albanians living there would have wanted to stay with Serbia. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a way to turn back the clock on this one, and we both lost a good opportunity to build peaceful relations between our two people.

I do strongly agree with you that far too often these areas of historical importance have been used for political reasons, and I agree with you that if Serbs stopped doing this, the reasons for the vandalism of our monuments would diminish. I think you make a very valid point, and one that I had not considered before.

I believe at this point in history, we need to foster an understanding between us. Clearly if Serbs were to stop using our Cultural Heritage as a political weapon, then Albanians might be able to view our monuments as the potential for investment that they are. Tourism will develop in Albania, and Kosovo has the potential to really appeal to the Serbian population if we can get over our differences. If we do "lose" Kosovo and all our historical monuments, its in everyone's best interest to preserve these monuments for future generations and to try to use this as a reason to work together, not a reason to tear us apart.

Sadly, its very easy for me to comment on this as I haven't lost or suffered as greatly as those living in these areas. I completely understand the views of some of the people who are filled with hatred. Hopefully, we can stop the violence so that future generations find a way out of this situation.

Driton, may I ask your background? I'm assuming you are a member of the Albanian Diaspora who grew up in the West? If all Albanians spoke like you, it would go far towards making us feel more reassured. Someone like you I could trust, and I personally would rather have you watching over our cultural monuments more then some Ultra-Nationalistic Serb who might use them for political gain. That is saying a lot.

I would also like to point out, that although we have differing opinions on some points, we are both looking for those areas where we can agree and have common interests, which is good. I would hope that our discussion will show that both sides can be reasonable and differ without resorting to name calling.

Well, I'm not sure that the Russians would actually veto anything however I think its a good time to bring up partitioning and a land swap again.

Would our Albanian friends consider trading areas of Kosovo for areas of South Serbia?

Let's face it, our two people have the same problem. Our people are split between a number of different countries and the International Community really doesn't care about that.

We should be working together for a regional solution that results in the Right to Self Determination for all of our populations in all the countries in which we live.

This really is a good starting point. If we stood up together on this issue it would show the political maturity we need to have in order to join the EU.

We could have a true win-win situation for everyone, not just the Albanians of Kosovo, but for Albanians and Serbians everywhere they live.

Lets try to have an honest talk about this without all the silly nationalistic rants.

Would the Albanians here support independence for ALL Albanians?

There really isn't reason we shouldn't be supporting one another, we have nearly identical concerns and issues.

I hope we can work together on this.

this is it! russian leaders will stand by what they have said. not like others switching tides where comfort and majority is. and most important is their decision is based on international law.

"supporting one another" is disingenuous after the threats, humiliation, and destabilization Serbia has endured for 15 yrs (illegal disembowlement; rape of its resources; 800,000 refugees; 25% of it's people outside it's borders, soveiregnty for everybody except Serbs; economic and cultural embargoes; bombing of a European capital; breaking of any law to secure more markets and access to Caspian Sea oil).

The West created this mess when it created yugoslavia... and compounded it when they broke it up... Now they can live with the mess they created.

asking Serbia to support the process is like asking a rape victim to help the rapist... over, and over again.

serbia should tell them to go bomb themselves. if they take kosovo away, serbia should respond with an economic embargo.

to ask someone NOT to protect their interests is ridiculous. everyone protects their interests with full force - this is normal.

a permanent security council member has spoken. adjust your politics....

or... alternatively, jump up and down and scream very loud... and then threaten violence... or blow up a schoolhouse... hardly mature political acts... and increasingly shrill and tired).

i propose independence on mondays, wednesdays and fridays AND autonomy on tuesdays, thursdays and saturdays. sunday's can be neutral days with friendly soccer matches played at contact group capitals while the UN officiates.

As an Albanian your solution Matthew makes perfect sense. Now we only have to convince Montenegro, Macedonia and Greece.

Message to Albanians, I know you are hoping that Russia stabs the Serbs in the back; however, Putin is not a puppet of the United States like Yeltsin was. I do not think Russia can state its intention any more emphatically when it says that it will veto independence for Kosovo. What part of “VETO” don’t you understand?

Blag, my wife experienced ethnic cleansing in Krajina during the war, so I'm well aware of the crimes committed against Serbs (I'm a Serb just like you). Both sides here on the forums know exactly what crimes were committed by each other. Both sides need to recognize the crimes committed in the names of their people and to work towards never having that happen again.

Which is exactly why we should be focusing on a solution that protects Serbs in the areas in which they live. That is why the Right to Self Determination should be available to everyone. That would mean protection for Serbs in Bosnia and Krajina as well as those areas in Kosovo with a Serb majority. If we were to swap areas of south Serbia for areas of strong historical importance in Kosovo, then our religious heritage would be protected as well.

In exchange for Albanian support for this, we would give them support wherever they live. Keep in mind Blag, it will be just as hard for the Albanians to put aside their grievances, as it will be for us to do. We can not ask them to do anything we would not do ourselves. It doesn't matter who "started it" or who did "worse crimes", only that we admit our wrongs and work towards a solution that protects the interests of our people's.

We have the same issues, concerns and fears. Both sides committed atrocious crimes against each other. We all know this. However, we need to stand up to the International Community before they make another ill informed mistake, like what they did that led to the original wars of the 1990's.

Now that being said, its may be possible to get Macedonia onboard for this. Think about it, with the Albanian birthrate the way it is, they will be an absolute majority in that country in a few years, and the same could happen to Serbia. It just makes sense for everyone to live in their own country.

The only way to bring down the Albanian birthrate is to raise the economic standards to that of Western Europe, otherwise the Albanians are going to be calling all the shots in the region. So it is in our own best interests to make sure Albania has a viable economy.

We need to figure out the "best" solution for everyone involved. If we want to protect our heritage, we need to do something about Kosovo. Personally, I'm all for giving up some Albanian dominated areas if it protects our people and our heritage. The status quo isn't doing anyone any good, we do not need a repeat of 2004, and it will happen if we ignore the problem.

Keep in mind, the International Community does not care about the welfare of either of our two peoples. Kosovo is a nice political issue for them because they've clearly defined a villain and a victim and it scores them points in their elections. We need to stand together and work towards a regional solution that protects both Serbs and Albanians wherever they live. Already the International Community is moving in to privatize the mining infrastructure in Kosovo to pay international debts. They are ripping off both the Serbs and the Albanians. They are not friends of Albanians or Serbs. We all lose. NATO bombed Serbia knowing full well that Milosevic would respond with further crack downs and crimes. They did it to make Milosevic look bad, and he played right into it. Basically the International Community did it knowing full well what would happen. Then they did nothing about the reprisals against innocent Serbian villagers either. They don't care about us getting along, or they wouldn't have handled it the way they are right now. Is anyone happy with the way the International Community has been handling this?

As Serbs, what do we really absolutely need in Kosovo and South Serbia? We need to protect our people there, and we need to protect our religious and historical sites. Anything that does not fall under that, we should just let go of. We need to focus on Bosnia and of uniting our people. The region has had enough Nationalism, lets stop the rhetoric and focus on what we really need.

forgot to add one thing.... serbia should accept the PfP/ NATO invite if it delivers a favorable Kosovo outcome (whatever that may be)... and then it should walk out of PfP and NATO (an insignificant organization considering Serbia's geographic position). Serbia should help develop the region into a stable trading bloc and forget NATO, the EU and everyone else. Life can be very good outside the EU and... and one need not deal with all their diktats. Serbs need not live like Belgians.... living like Greeks is just fine thanks! Don't buy into the false prosperity argument that gives with one hand and takes with the other.

Also,

Russia did us an incredible favor. Now we actually have a chance at compromise and negotiation, let us use the opportunity and not just waste it.

Serbia doesn't need the EU. The EU takes us for granted and the best we can hope for is second class status. The EU's future is very unstable currently. We need to thank Russia for their support by improving ties to their country as much as possible. Russia has always been close to our country, we need to continue that in the future.

I 100% agree with Blag on no NATO and no EU.

To Ari, we need to add Bosnia and Croatia to your list. We would need to support each other and each other's people. I'm talking about a two way street that benefits us both.

Let's use this opportunity to throw around some ideas and just see what the different sides think of them. Maybe we could come up with something?

That's indeed nothing new. It will be interesting to see the Russian reaction to the Ahtisaari's proposal, January 21st. With USA/UE pushing to resolve the problem, and Ahtisaari's recommandation with neither "independence" (Serb demand) nor "Serbia's territorial integrity" (Kosovo's demand; based also on the Principles of Contact Group, which Serbia has accepted) mentioned, there will be no reason for no one not to accept it. So you have a solution which is not a win-win one, and acceptable to both parts, since no one will win all and the other will lose all. Serbia and Kosovo will go separate ways afterwards (well indeed, they're going it since 7 yrs.). A masterpiece of diplomacy, which is the art of making impossible things real.

A veto will not have any effect! It'll just pave the way for the Kosovo Albanians to declare a unilateral Independence!

Some countries may recognize Kosovo and some may not. Nonetheless, it will never be Serbia's again unless there is third world war, or the entire west's military and political structures collapse at once.

Mathew makes a good point! And if a proposal like this came convincingly from Belgrade, I am sure it would devide Albanians in the support of it.

Can you read? I guess you can, and the ambassador says; ” Compromise or veto”.

You know that a compromise is reciprocal, both Kosovars and Serbs have to agree. If the Kosovars do not want compromise then nothing will happen. Kosovo continues to be independent de facto, Serbia de jure.

RE: Self Determination for everyone else, not the Serbs

Russia would have backed Serbia during the illegal 1999 Nato bombings, the problem was Yeltsin needed money for the failing Russian Economy , and the US obiliged for the obliteration of Serbia.

Dont' forget, it was Cheroymydin , the Russian Special Envoy who convinced Milosevic to sing UN resolution 1244, becuase the Serbs were ready to fight as they soundly trounced the so called KLA back to Albanian and their troop and military arsenal remain untouched as NATO continued to bomb dummy tank props.

Diplomatically, the Serbs have the Russian veto , if Ceku does not want to truly negotiate, than he can forget about an independant Kosovo. Ceku didnt' go to Russia for a tea party.

Konstantin Gregovic
Edmonton, Canada

If Serbia wants to be a member of EU I think they should regonize Kosovo indepedence now before it's too late.

matthew, well taken on all counts, however, there might be another path. consider the following:

1- illicit force (West) only respects strength, obstinance, resistance, determination, and persistence -- not weakness (look at iraq -- am not advocating suicide bombing, but am advocating determined resistance). serbia has better cards in its hands than most think. the value of its "potential" economy is far greater than any neighbor in the region. its economy is ascendent right NOW which means bidders for its assets should take note how they vote at the UN. and the potential value of its "stabilizing influence" is far greater than any other country in the region. these are assets to be traded upon. one need not give up land. The longer serbia stalls (a legitimite and powerful negotiating device) the stronger its hand becomes.

2- giving up land means validating what the international community does not have - a LEGAL mechanism to change the borders of serbia without it's consent. this is their greatest liability. if they had a legal basis, they would have taken it by now. one sees over and over again in their statements the empty threat that serbia must "accept the status decision or else." this is nonsense... and a big ballsy bluff. serbia need not accept anything nor sign anything... particularly with a gun to its head. it's "potential" value far exceeds the value of an indep kosovo. it has a democratically elected govt recognized worldwide. no one will bomb again or embargo again. now is not the time to go wobbly... but rather stand firm and exact a substantial cost for signing away kosovo (if that is what serbia wants). serbia's signature is the greatest asset it has. if they want kosovo, they need to pay a premium. something substantial would be land north of the ibar AND republika srpska (located in bosnia - an artificial country where 66% of the population do not wish to reside).

3- if the west wants to set legal precedent, they must also deal with the consequences set into motion around the globe (only the naive think there won't be any). do not assume they will set legal precedent blindly. they are counting for serbia to "back down and heel" and sign the document authorizing change of borders. the more one articulates the lack of legal mechanism - particularly at the UN... the less powerful the proponents of independence are and the greater the chance to scuttle the impending status decision that seesk to take way kosovo without compensation. this would force them to sidestep the security council (the supreme law making council of the world)... which carries its own problems.

4- contracts are binding agreements and the lack of a signature from a constituent party makes a contract null. one can argue til blue in the face, but law from the magna carta until now realizes this fundamental precept. Even don corleone himself endeavored to get signatures. To scuttle an unfavorable status decision, serbia need only stick to its legal position and force appeal... after appeal causing obstacles to potential investors for the foreseeable future as well as thrufare for those investors.

5- do not underestimate the threat of embargo. If one wishes to export coal (kosovo) one needs access to the single river that connects europe (danube). Certainly small time operators will bypass sanctions, but kosovo canot build a modern economy on black market trade. Geographically, serbia stands in its way. In this forum you will see many who think the threat of embargo is not a significant... But it is very significant.

to the one commentator who will tell me to join nikolic's party..... creating a country out of thin air - means playing HARDBALL -- how much are you willing to pay?

EU will not enlarge again for the next 10 years or so so its completely bizzare to "threat" Serbia with EU membership.I guess Kosovo will be something like Turkish "republic" of northern Cyprus:poor,isolated entity which has de facto independence but not de jure.On the other side Serbia will be something like Greek part of Cyprus:MUCH better,richer place for living then northern part.And at the end Greek Cypriotes entered the EU without problem and without solving question of Cyprus,didn't they Mr Pariz.se?

Thank you Russia and thank you Putin! I wonder how come there is so few "negative" albanian postings all of a sudden??? It feels good to have a big brother. Whether it is in Russia's interest or not, they are the only country trully on Serbia's side.

Look what difference there is between serbs and albanians here in B92.
Artisari was right when he said the sides will never reach an agreement, so that an imposed solution must come.
It was imposed to us in 1912 to stay with serbia, now it will be imposed to serbia,
and all serbs here are talking nonsense, independence will come even if noone agrees, because we are there in kosova 90% and no serb will ever touch that soil armed.
and who speaks nonsense here b/c of inercy, just try and see the reality.

Compromise or veto??? OH NO!!! Self-righteous unilateralism has been dealt a death blow!! Oh well, looks like we finally get to see what Ceku was told in Moscow.

Why rely so much on the russians?
Before the bombardment of serbia 1999 russians were comming up with bombastic declarations against it. Those declarations lead to a deal between russia and serbia for a 1 Billion dollar arms deal. If you might remember the arms were delivered to serbia through Romania. I bet you after the deal was sealed russiand did not care about the bombardment anymore (russian politicians were too bussy counting the money at the party), serbs took the bait, russia did not help at all.
After the Komanovo agreement, the russian troops in a hurry got the first ones in Kosovo, speeding along the way from Bosnia (luckily no speeding tickets issued). They positioned themselves at the Prishtina airport, not for too long right? because the boss was someone else. Then after that they were given a sector to control, just to live very shortly after that, they packed for russia very soon.
What all this tells you? This should tell you that Someone else is couging in Kosova now, that is NATO, not russians, ad they wil never dictate the Balkans politics. That is NATO gepolitical strategy now, russians are gone for ever, and they will never set foot in the Balkans again.
So much for the russian veto.
Bear in mind that at one point the serbian politicians were loudly asking for confederation with russia and bellorussia, and to me that was the most ridiculous statements serbs ever made. The west did not forget that yet.
Kosova independence is more fisible for serbia that the alliance with russia (politically and economically)
think about it. Geographically does not make a sense.
Independence is the best solution for both Serbs and Albanians.
Peace!

Blag,

I have actually considered the ideas you mention and do think something along the lines you suggest could work the way you discuss it. There is strong anti-western sentiment in the world and Serbia could try to re-establish their role as a player in the non-aligned movement and tell the West to take a hike. I generally agree with your feelings and opinions I just word it differently.

However, I’m not sure that is the best option at this time. Serbia having control of Kosovo has not stopped violence committed against Serbians there. It’s obvious that trying to use force to stop the violence doesn’t work, Albanians are as stubborn as Montenegrins, heh heh. While it’s possible to have reconciliation and safety for Serbs in those areas, do you really want to take a chance with their lives? I’m sure some of them are close family members of yours. I think the decision should be based on what is the most likely to bring Serbians the highest amount of safety possible.

I do think it’s important right now to sound out the Albanians and just see what they are willing to consider.

I also think it’s a good idea to directly go outside the bounds of the rules the International Community has set. This would show the world that the EU and the West can not unilaterally dictate terms and conditions on whomever they like. The West is screwing over both the Serbs and the Albanians. It’s a good idea to work together on this and try to come up with something maybe we’d both like better then what the West is offering. I don’t think its needs to be done in way in which we look weak; we can do it in a way where we’re standing up to the International Community.

Also, what’s really the important factor for us here? For me, it’s the protection of the Serbs that live there, and the protection of our Serbian historical areas. I personally, and this is only my opinion, feel that economics and property rights are secondary concerns next to the lives of our people and our country’s heritage.

So I don’t feel the areas that are not a Serbian majority and those areas that don’t contain any important religious/historical sites are really necessary.

I think that’s a good place to start. We really don’t need those areas. We can put those on the plate to offer.

The Albanians living in Serbia have a much higher birthrate then we do. In a free democracy they will eventually out number us and control the vote and therefore control of the government.

So really it is in our best interest to let those areas join with Albania, as well as in Macedonia’s best interest.

So we have some carrots to offer the Albanians and we should talk to them about it. It doesn’t hurt anyone to discuss ideas and just see what’s possible. I already listed some of the benefits for the Albanians, so I won’t go into that at the moment.

If somehow we could negotiate a settlement outside of the EU it would certainly help our cause in Bosnia. Russia would love it, and it would help to rebuild respect for Serbia in the world.

If we could have a rational discussion with the Albanians, I think it might be time to have a rational discussion with the Croatians of Bosnia. If we can get the Croatians of Bosnia on the partition bandwagon, which I don’t believe would be that hard to do, we would have the justification and precedence for defining our own borders our way with the consent of the people that live there. It would make our argument very strong.

Personally, I think its well worth considering if it’s possible or not. If we’re able to unite our people at the cost of letting go of some areas where Serbs don’t live, I think it’s a no brainer really. I’m sure the devil is in the details, and maybe we’ll never come to an agreement, but its worth discussing. If it were somehow possible to find a compromise that gives us this, I think it’s worth it.

matthew, i like going outside of the bounds that the international community has set, but other than gracanica, the most important historical sites are devoid of serbs (prizren, pec, decani, kosovo polje). and gracanica is serb minority if i am not mistaken.

also, to get all those sides to arrive at a common agreement seems to me a bit utopian.

i say serbia should just resist as hard as it can and make life difficult for all.

all their statements warn us against resisting (because they know we can stop development of the statelet thru legal appeals or economic embargo).

appealing legally over and over again scares skittish investors. and economic embargo ensures K's number 1 asset - coal would be hard to sell. to sell it west or north it has to geographically pass thru serbia. otherwise it needs to be sold to albania and macedonia. and to albania there are no railways.

serbs should hold out for the best possible deal and do what is right for serbia (and what is right for serbia is bad for a number of other players in the region). unfortunately, there are not always win-win solutions possible. this is hard and real realpolitik.

Yeah, I realize that the chances of such a compromise are very slim and I personally don't know enough about the economics and population of the region to speak with authority.

However, I still think its worth considering trading areas of South Serbia, like Presevo, for areas of Kosovo like Kosovo Polje and Pec.

Yes, some Albanians would still be living under Serbian rule in those areas. However, if it resulted in less Albanians being under Serbian control, they might consider it as being best for their people.

Offering to let them join Albania proper and to support their right to self determination might just sweeten the pot enough.

Very likely its completely impossible, but I'm very curious to see if this is something the Albanians could be satisfied with.

At least we agree, that if it were possible it would be a good solution.

To Matthew and Blag,

With all due respect, do you really believe that what you are proposing has not been done before. You must realize that negotiations are over. We are now waiting for Artthisari's recommendation to the UN security council. This "recommendation" is the Security Council's way of getting the Independence issue settled. There will be no further negotiations. The USA, EU, NATO and the UN are sick and tired of trying to get the Serbs and Albanians to agree. The decision, what ever it will be, is going to be imposed. Please understand that. Westerners can only be stalled for so long, you both experienced that when Serbia was bombed. The Serbs best chance was lost at Ranbouillet.

Matthew, do you really believe that the Albanians will ever trust the Serbs. Don't you think it is insulting to the Albanians for you to refer to them as "my Albanian friends".

In closing, I think the Serbs have underestimated the Albaians for too long. Also, the Serbs have a self inflated view of the importance of Serbia from both a Balkan and world standpoint.

All that is left now is for the fat lady to sing. This will occur at the end of January 2007.

Have either of you considered learning the Albanian language?

to Matthew i have some points to make. We albanians dont want kosovo partition, and that will never happened.
The west is making a good offer to people living in kosovo and their safety, which is Independence. (maybe not good to serbs in serbia)
"About the albanian high birth rate and they will outnumber the serbs" what you suggest here is dangerous and not applicable to reallity of today and EU. Those albanians you have in preshevo valley they will stay there in serbia, even if they or serbia want them to join with albania. And you serbs should try to live with albanians, b/c they are serbian citiziens and try to treat them equaly. And if one day they are majority in serbia, and they control the government and want to join albania they can do that. and if serbs become majority again the can do that.
Albania is just a country with no natural bondaries, it can grow as the same as it can shrink.
If beleive that making ethnic division serbia will exist, you are wrong my friend. if after many years there will be no serb in serbia because of low birth rate, who will be there?
what will be the name of that country?
my friend it is all about people. maybe how do you know that you are not albanian? and you moved to serbia and your parents were assimilated into serbian and now you think you are serbian and hate albanians.
you must think real and right. everything havs to do with people and what they beleive. an albanian can be whoever want to be and feels albanian. we are not killing or threatening people to be albanian. and we dont try to assimilate other people. its free choice and they make the decision. and i think we should not discuss any more albanian and serbs, b/c if albanians dont want to assimilate in serbian and serbian in albanian, let assimilate in EU values.
Is not the name or history that will prevent a country from shrinking and dissapearing but the people who live in it.
And stop with division b/c some here are talking nonsense about albanian culture and values. albanians are an inclusive culture and not an exclusive one.
and by the way, albanians are free people in their thinking and uncounditioned by customs, religion, believs, or culture. Albanian is an ideology that cannot be defeated, by lies and oppression.
tha's why some people dont like us.

Arben,

I would love to learn Albanian actually, it is a fascinating culture with a strong mountain warrior type tradition and would probably help me in understanding my own Montenegrin roots .

And no I don’t think its insulting for me to refer to you all as friends and I’m sorry you seem incapable of seeing people as people, and not as Serbs or Albanians. Its always the common people who suffer as a result of this, you’re clearly educated and it’s a shame you don’t take into consideration the lives of innocent people who live there and want an end to the cycle of violence. If all Albanians feel the way you do, you're only strengthening the argument for the partition of Kosovo. It sounds to me as if you are against any sort of reconciliation ever. Do you really expect the Serbs of Kosovo to feel safe if you hold those types of opinions?

If Germany can reconcile with the nations it devastated in its many wars, I believe someday Albanians will trust the Serbs. The crimes of the Germans in WWII were far worse atrocities than anything the Serbs committed (Not to belittle the the suffering of the Albanian people in 1999, but you weren't sent to the gas chambers by the millions like the Jews were). Would you support never trusting or dealing with the Germans again? I think we all agree that would be a rather silly position to take. I think you will find that if both Serbia and Albania join the EU that we will have more common interests with each other then we will with the rest of Europe.

I’ve been called a traitor by nationalistic elements of Serbian society after appearing on Bosnian television discussing my humanitarian work with Bosniaks from Sarajevo. If I can make strong friendships with Bosnian Muslims, then I see no reason not to seek out moderate Albanians to ask their views and opinions. I am sorry that segments of your population are not interested in negotiations or in repairing relations between our two peoples. However, I will continue to reach out to the Albanian community to try to sound out ideas that might be a true compromise. To flat out refuse to negotiate or consider the plight of the Albanians in areas other then Kosovo is a disservice to your own people. Dealing with Kosovo in a vacuum without taking other areas into consideration is a recipe for failure.

I do not recall the idea of a land swap, or the suggestion that we support each other's Right to Self Determination being done before. These ideas are outside the boundaries the International Community has set for discussion.

I also do not agree the time for negotiation is over. Whatever Ahtisaari suggests, I can guarantee that his prime concern will be what's best for the EU and not what's best for the Albanians or the Serbs. As I've said before, look at what they are currently doing. Selling off the mineral wealth to foreign investors and pocketing the money, all in the name of Free Market Capitalism. Now is the best time to look for a solution that offers more to both the Serbs and the Albanians.

I realize my comments on the birthrate have nationalistic overtones to it, but those comments were directed towards nationalistic elements of the Serbian population and worded in such a way as to appeal to them. I apologize if you found them offensive, but it is a sound argument for allowing Albanians in Serbia and Macedonia to join with Albania. Clearly such opinions have been used in the past to justify ethnic cleansing and I in no way condone those types of actions by either side.

How do I know my family were not Albanian originally? I don’t. I’m Montenegrin, from a mixed clan. So chances are I do share blood with the Albanian people. Montenegrin and Albanian culture and traditions are so nearly identical there has to be a relationship between the two. We should empathize our similarities and not our differences. I do not hate Albanians, and nothing I've said would indicate that in any way. I am completely at a loss as to why you would think that? My love for Serbia and its heritage does not mean a hatred for all things Albanian. It seems to me that maybe you would like it if all Serbians were to hate all Albanians? Clearly, you are "projecting" and assuming my opinions on the relationship of our two peoples mirror yours. I assure you that is not the case.

In addition, I do in fact know my family history. My family on my grandmother's side are descended from the Nemanja dynasty and we were Knez's in Risan since the 10th Century. My family founded the first Library in Beograd, and performed in the first play conducted in the Serbian language in Risan in 1851. We've built monasteries and conducted many other acts of philanthropy. I am very comfortable with the role my family has played in the History of the Serbian people. One of the main reasons I get a good laugh out of being called a traitor to the Serbian people.

Just out of curiosity SHQIPE, you say the Albanians of Kosovo do not want partition of Kosovo, but what is the reasoning behind that statement? Is it merely because you would like to annoy the Serbs and pay them back a little for everything they have done to your people, or is it based on some valid economic or social concern? While revenge seems to be common currency in the Balkans, I do not personally believe decisions based on those concepts are healthy for the future relations of our two people. While I understand why you are upset, in order to end the cycle of violence for our future generations, we need to move beyond revenge and look at what we need to do to ensure the safety of both our people in the future.

I personally see a serious flaw and contradiction in many of the arguments that the Nationalistic Albanians seem to profess. On the one hand, they insist publicly on a multi-ethnic composition for Kosovo, and that partition would not be acceptable, but on the other hand, they constantly say they could never trust Serbians and that negotiation with them is impossible. I do not see how the Serbs of Kosovo could be comfortable and feel safe living in conditions like that.

Hello Matthew,
There are many things that you seem to assume to be true about Albanians that are simply false. Perhaps you have not met many Albanians. However, this is probably not your fault. I will attempt to address a few of your mistaken views about Albanians.

1. Most Albanians do not believe in forming a "Greater Albania". That is a concept that most Serbs would like to see for themselves, i.e. the creation of a Greater Serbia. As a matter of fact, historically, the Serbs have started many wars to achieve this dream. Fortunately, they lost most of those wars.

2. The region of Kosova is clearly defined and has definite borders. Therefore, any attempt to change these borders would set a precedent, which, as an abstract concept, both the Russians and the Serbs are violently opposed to. The Albanians only wish to keep what is historically theirs. The Albanians/Illirians inhabited what is now called Kosova long before the appearance of Slavs on the Balkan Peninsula. Perhaps you have not read Noel Malcom's "KOSOVO: A Short History" or Babara Jelevic's "A History of the Balkans" or other histories by international scolars.

3. You mention Germany as an example of a country that went to war with its neighbors, but now has reconciled with those countries that it devastated during WW II. What you failed to mention was that after WW II, there were the Nuremburg Trials and then a slow and painful period of de-Natzification of the German populace. Are the Serbs ready to go through something like this? Some how I doubt it!

I am anxious to here your response.

Mathew, it's nice to see someone reasonable from the serb side besides the usual army of haters. As an Albanian, my opinion would be that yes, a land swap could work, provided that both parties were willing to be fair and just to each-other. And it would be a good thing both for Serbia and Kosova. Good fences make good neighbors.
You say that the devil is in details. I would say that the details in this case are the problem to be solved. There have been over the many years of Yugoslavia, countless projects from the serb side on how to partition Kosova, but they were all so unrealistic, that the Albanians simply laughed them off. If you're interested I can tell you what I personally would find a fair land swap. But realistically, looking at the politics in Belgrade and the politics in Prishtina I don't think it will happen.

I have not had the pleasure of meeting many Albanians, which is unfortunate. Luckily where I live there are at least many Bosniaks and Croatians, many of which are my friends as we have more in common then different here in the land of immigrants (USA). Precisely why I have posted on this site in the hopes of learning more of the Albanian perspective.

I do not like the term Greater Serbia or Greater Albania. It invokes images of seizing land unjustly through violence and has strong negative connotations with just a scent of Nazi Germany. I do believe that the Right to Self Determination is the best thing we have currently, although I agree its outdated, enforced selectively, and encourages ethnic cleansing and genocide. Besides its not very practical. Its exactly like a fractal design closing in on itself without end.

However, being that the Right to Self Determination is the current standard for determining human rights, I see nothing politically incorrect in supporting it.

Both Albanians and Serbians are divided among different nations and have suffered discrimination as minorities in some of those countries.

You are absolutely correct in that the vast majority of Serbians I have spoken with want to live in a united country. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. However, I will agree that engaging in ethnic cleansing, mass murder and rape are not appropriate ways to promote these desires. I do believe the brutality of the region is diminishing and although the crimes committed during the 90’s were atrocious by modern sensibilities, they were an improvement compared to some of the events that occurred during WWII. Hopefully the world was outraged enough at this recent behavior that it will not approach the level we’ve seen in the recent past if it were to occur again.

I can only assume the Albanians of South Serbia would like the option to live in union with Albania, as they appear on the surface to feel they are an oppressed minority, at least we seemed to be led to believe this here in the West. I never intended to imply that they would resort to violence to do so. I have exactly zero knowledge about how the people of this region truly feel outside of a few statements I’ve read from their leaders on this website B92.

So yes, I am curious to know if that is something the Albanians living in South Serbia would be interested in? IF it could be done peacefully and with the consent of all involved, Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, and of course the region itself. To me it occurred that it might possibly be the compromise we were all looking for.

Of course I could be completely mistaken, the Albanians of South Serbia might very well want to remain within Serbia. If that truly is indeed the case, then it isn’t worthy of discussion I suppose. I would like to know why they would want to stay, would it be for economic reasons or something?

It seemed at least some people thought the idea of some sort of compromise or negotiation was worth pursuing or discussing. We should try to engage in something constructive I think.

However, since most of the points made here are not directed towards compromise or negotiation, I thought it would be my place to start some discussion of that, especially since the subject of this article was compromise and negotiation.

If you have some construction suggestions on possible points to start with, I would greatly appreciate an intelligent educated opinion from an Albanian, as you are obviously well read.

Are the Serbs ready to go through a serious Nuremberg type trial? While we all know the Hague is a ineffective bumbling joke bringing satisfaction to no one. Politically, probably the Serbs can not, that chance may have died with Đinđić. However, since this is all make believe, lets assume the Serbian government is willing and active and making real progress doing this? Would then you support investigations into possible hate crimes committed against Serbians? Or is there some other act of reconciliation you would consider? Or something else tangible you would like to see before you’d be willing to negotiate or compromise? Or do you think talking with the Serbs about anything, Kosovo, South Serbia or the weather is a waste of time? Even hypothetically on a website?

Perhaps I did read Noel Malcolm’s book?

I found his research into the region fascinating and extremely in-depth. His linguistic history is very impressive, although I have to admit that is a subject in which my skills are lacking. He cites his sources and provides plenty of material. Much information that is not normally available in English can be found there. I would say its recommended reading for anyone truly interested in the subject, but not for the novice reader. The vast amount of documentation and complex discussion on the subject is enough to boggle the mind, and at times he even appears to have boggled his own. He has the tendency to cite extremely varying numbers, facts and versions of events to compare, then arbitrarily deciding which of those versions or numbers are the one true and absolute reality using at times rational that appears to be in conflict with his earlier reasoning. He does a marvelous job of citing sources from all sides and providing a vast wealth of information, however he should stay away from making solid conclusions and let the readers decide on their own from the evidence he presents. I also believe he has a tendency to minimalize or simply ignore some events in which Serbians were abused. However, I’m fairly sure the crimes committed against Albanians in the region he cites did occur, I am in no way a denier that atrocities have happened and have happened for a while now. Nor do I deny a lengthy presence of the Albanian population in the area. I live in the US, so 600 years seems just as long as 6000 years to me, appears to me like both Serbs and Albanians have been there longer then their own written languages.

Unfortunately historians should not go into a project trying to prove a particular point or support a political view. However, history books have a tendency to reflect the time period and culture in which they were written, they do after all have to sell them to the public. Reading history books from right before, during or after major wars and conflicts is an amusing hobby of mine. This is an excellent book, but it does engage in propaganda and the reader should be aware that the writer is biased to an extent.

I’ve read enough not to recall all the titles and authors off the top of my head, but if you recommend Jelevic I’ll check it out. It sounds familiar. I’ve even read Tudjman. It is always good to understand the perspective of others.

King Zog rocks BTW, totally fun reading about him.

At least Serbs and Albanians have one thing in common, a love of history eh? I’m sure we can agree on that.

Or maybe that love of history is the core of our problems and we need to start looking forward and not behind us. Wars are now fought economically, we need to get with the program or the EU will swallow us both. It really is as simple as that.

You know, basically I’m just a reasonable guy who just cares about his heritage, and it just tears me up what we’re doing to each other over there. Honestly it just seems so damn pointless and rather self destructive for all involved. I know with my background and upbringing that I’ll never truly understand what its like out there or to grow up like that. So I do apologize to anyone on either side of the issue whom I may have offended by my comments.

Driton,

I agree with your assessment of the current political situation between Pristina and Belgrade. However, that shouldn’t dissuade us from discussing ideas and compromise.

If just one person’s mind is changed in regards to how they view members of the other population, I believe this would be a success. The best we may hope for at this time is baby steps towards reconciling our two people’s. Starting the process at the grass roots level is always a good thing.

As far as the details go, I think the concerns would fall into three categories.

Existing population, economic value, and the presence of historical/religious sites. I personally would like access to maps comparing these three factors. If anyone has cites to webpages with such information, please post.

I think the issues in regards to population are fairly straightforward and easy to establish and would be the starting point for any discussions.

The major mineral wealth in the area was already sold off to foreign investors, so that may serve to miminalize the issues relating to that.

The major sticking point would probably be with what to do with those areas in Kosovo that have a strong historical importance to the Serbs, yet contain a majority Albanian population.

I’ve seen some maps indicating the locations of churches and Serbian monuments, and its spread over a fairly large portion of the center of Kosovo, and does not seem to yield to easy partition. I have to admit complete ignorance of which of these sites are truly important, or what their population composition might be.

I believe the Serbs would have to seriously consider what sites are truly needed in order to represent our heritage. I believe the Serbs should also consider physically moving some sites and/or monuments. The final area should not exceed the geographic size, economic importance, or population density of those areas in South Serbia that are offered for swapping. Again, I admit to complete ignorance of the makeup and composition of the population and economics of South Serbia.

So maybe the conflicting interests for those areas are too high to overcome. However, since I do not personally know the answer to that, I thought I’d bring it up in the hopes finding something useful that would in fact be acceptable to both sides.

Think of Balkan Politics as a Turkish Bazaar, no matter how laughable the previous offers coming from the Serbian side, its always useful to haggle, you might get a good deal.

Driton, I would be very much interested in what you would consider to be fair or reasonable. The free exchange of thoughts and ideas is always a positive endeavor and would very much serve to further my knowledge of this often tragically misunderstood part of the world.

Hi Mathew,

I agree with you that small steps at this point are the best we can do to at least normalize the relationship betw Kosova and Serbia, so that we can talk as neighbors and resolve some immediate issues (such as minorities) from which both countries can benefit. Then, I believe we can tackle the long and slow process of addressing and recognizing the crimes and injustices of the past, and take measures to eradicate the hateful nationalism that has caused so much harm in the past.

I also agree with you regarding the three categories of concerns. Each side throws exagerated numbers around, but I'd like to refer to wikipedia, for ballpark figures of populations in South Serbia and North Kosova. There are three regions in South Serbia that have ethnic Albanians: Presheva, Bujanovc and Medvedja with respectively 90%,55% and 28% of the population of them being Albanian and three regions in North Kosova with a majority ethnic Serbs: Leposavic, Zubin Potok and Zvecan with respectively 94%, 92% and 72% of the population being Serbian and Mitrovica where although Albanians have 81% of the population, Serbs are mostly located north of Ibar. There are experts on both sides that know the situation on the ground better, and setting up new borders that correspond to the ethnic makeup of the region shouldn't be too hard. For cases where Albanians or Serbs would still end up on the "wrong" side of the border (I say this for the lack of a better term), and would like to relocate, a voluntary land swap program could be set up to match up potential candidates, and measures could be taken to make this process peaceful, fair and orderly, or countries can reimburse people that wish to leave on their free will, for the fair, market-based value of the land and property.

And if there would still be Albanians that would like to stay in South Serbia or viceversa, both countries should take measures to provide for these peoples safety, and their integration in the local communities. The thing I hate the most are barbed-wired communities, these are totally wrong in so many aspects, first for the people who live there and are shameful for the country that has them. They so much remind me of the movie "Underground", imagine to be born or grown up in such communities, what kind of mentality one would develop. On the other hand, people wanting to stay would have to recognise the country where they live in and their institutions.

As for the mineral wealth of north Kosova, some of it was sold off, but some not, and for Albanians would be very hard to give it up as it's the only mineral wealth Kosova has, there are tax revenues, future investments, jobs etc. That's where Albanians would have to bite the bullet, and let those areas go. In return, Serbs would have to recognize full sovereignty of Kosova for the whole area south of Ibar. Even over the areas with Serbian churches or historical monuments. Kosova can not and should not be a country looking like a swiss cheese, with areas that it's government can not control. That is the give and take that I see as realistic and fair for both sides. I know that for many Albanians, to volunteer losing a great source of revenue for the new country, would be imposible to imagine as I know that for many Serbs to hand over their medieval churches to Albanians to administer would amount to a sacrilege.

To Albanians I would say that keeping those areas would mean to spend so much energy in the future to deal with and administer them, and they have the potential of becoming a source of perpetual conflict betw kosovars and the serbian minority. To Serbs, I would say that Albanians were the ones that protected these sites for 500 years. They didn't distroy them and that's why they are still intact. They can be turned into world heritage sites and protected and administered by both UNESCO and Kosova's Ministry of Culture. The Ministry of Culture would have to provide the funds for their maintenace and upkeep, and Serbian citizens can come and visit them when they wish.

But will Albanians protect them? I believe they will. It is necessary for Serbs to understand justifiable Albanian fears, when medieval churches were used as a political instrument and a reason to keep Albanians under the heel. Should those monuments cease to be used for their political and strategic value, those fears will not have a reason to be also. Is also important to distinguish between true medieval historical objects, built mostly prior to 1912 and those churches that were build mostly in the 80s and 90 in a frenzy of church-building for propagandistic value, to change the ethnic appearance of the province. We can ponder over their meaning, what history will say about them? That "this church was build as a precursor to Milosevic's ethic cleansing operations, and not as a monument to God"? But I'm about preserving them all. And for the true historical, medivial churches, their value will also be greater when they are finally seen as simply for what they are: as monuments to the holy devotion and beautiful objects of art, culture and history. As a testament of our shared past, not as sign of ones domination over the other. By accepting and protecting them, Kosova and the kosovar society will only be more beautiful. And by letting kosovars to administer them, the Serb society will also be making the first step towards building of trust, towards letting go of useless paranoias, and medieval mentalities. Serbia's heart is not in Kosova, Serbia's heart is in Belgrade where most of its people live and thrive. And likewise, it's future is not on the ancient mythologies, but on the progress of the society.

Absolutely one of the most reasonable discussions on the topic.

I would go a step farther and say anyone who would need to re-locate (on either side) should get more then fair market value of their property and generous assistance in starting a new business and training in a new job skill set. Some might be happy to move if it seriously improved their economic level and opportunity for a better future (Seaside Villa on the Coast perhaps?).

I would like to see Kosovo retain its mineral wealth if somehow feasible. I think the country should have as viable an economy as possible. Happy, content and affluent people have much to lose, while poor underprivileged and oppressed people have nothing to lose, except their lives, something people in the Balkans seem all too willing to give up at times. The best thing us Serbs can do is to promote the economy for Albanians. Allowing Kosovo to join with Albania could help in this. I believe Albania does have the potential to be a strong tourism based economy once they stabilize and modernize a bit (Something much of the former Ottoman areas in the Balkans seem to be suffering from). My understanding is the Albanians in Kosovo have some very educated individuals, but without the opportunity to find work that matches their skill set. This only fosters discontent. However, if Kosovo were to give up its mineral wealth, that would be a hefty compromise indeed, and I acknowledge your willingness to consider it.

I believe that if the International Community had focused on the economic issues, then the "Standards Before Status" ideal might have had a chance of success. I personally was very disheartened when they gave up on Standards and human rights as an important issue. I believe that happy prosperous Albanians would be too busy making money to focus on vengeance and punishment. Another opportunity tragically lost.

If Kosovo's mineral wealth were to go to the Serbs, I believe something equal in value for the economy should be offered in exchange, if at all possible. A sound economy is absolutely vital to the area's interest if peace is truly to have a solid foundation.

Independence is not a magic bullet to cure all Kosovo's ills, whatever the final status is to be, adequate living conditions for all those involved is absolutely essential in maintaining peace.

Your comments in regards to Serbian Cultural Monuments is extremely rational. Myself, being a member of the Serbian Diaspora, hold those areas in high esteem, and unfortunately that is one of the issues that is most dear to my heart. However, that is speaking emotionally rather then practically, something the region has seen too much of.

My wish would be to somehow preserve at least some of these monuments within Serbia proper. Whether our feelings towards Kosovo are "Myth" or reality, for us that area represents our Serbian heritage. I would like to see at least some of the truly important monuments retained. Even if only a small number. I think that if the Serbians were to have something to hold onto that could represent the idea of the "Kosovo Myth" (I'm using the term loosely here), that it might go far in placating many of the regular Serbian folk who care about their past. I think this is one of the issues that upsets Serbians the world over, the idea of "losing" Kosovo "again". Preserving every single church regardless of its importance clearly should not be considered.

I believe and hope that at least one truly historical area might be found that represents Serbian culture and would still be feasible in a discussion on partition. Even one area might be able to satisfy this craving, if not for our current population, surely for our future generations.

However, I agree with you, that turning Kosovo into Swiss Cheese is not good for the future stability of the region. Not knowing enough about the actual makeup of the region, I really have no idea if such an area could be found. Maybe someone here would know?

Emotionally speaking, I think it would be very hard for me to support giving up all areas of historical importance in Kosovo. I would almost prefer Essential Autonomy to that, even knowing that only prolongs the terrible state of Limbo the region is stuck in, increasing the chance of violence and destruction. I was born in the US, my family came here a long time ago, yet our myths and legends are still important to me. Whatever the original reality of Kosovo was, under the Ottomans it came to symbolize everything about our struggle and our heritage, and for hundreds of years it was Kosovo that we sang about, wrote poetry about, and dreamed about. Being that I am as far removed from Nationalism as a Serb can get, I can only imagine how some Serbs feel. However, repressing people or murdering innocent civilians is not acceptable, and unfortunately I feel there is a lot of validity to how Albanians feel they have been treated. For me, I think Kosovo's monuments are so important that I'd trade most of Serbia for them, heh heh.

If the Serbs had a policy of inclusion in Kosovo, and had welcomed Albanians into society and the economy and made Kosovo into an extremely prosperous area, I think the Albanians living there would have wanted to stay with Serbia. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a way to turn back the clock on this one, and we both lost a good opportunity to build peaceful relations between our two people.

I do strongly agree with you that far too often these areas of historical importance have been used for political reasons, and I agree with you that if Serbs stopped doing this, the reasons for the vandalism of our monuments would diminish. I think you make a very valid point, and one that I had not considered before.

I believe at this point in history, we need to foster an understanding between us. Clearly if Serbs were to stop using our Cultural Heritage as a political weapon, then Albanians might be able to view our monuments as the potential for investment that they are. Tourism will develop in Albania, and Kosovo has the potential to really appeal to the Serbian population if we can get over our differences. If we do "lose" Kosovo and all our historical monuments, its in everyone's best interest to preserve these monuments for future generations and to try to use this as a reason to work together, not a reason to tear us apart.

Sadly, its very easy for me to comment on this as I haven't lost or suffered as greatly as those living in these areas. I completely understand the views of some of the people who are filled with hatred. Hopefully, we can stop the violence so that future generations find a way out of this situation.

Driton, may I ask your background? I'm assuming you are a member of the Albanian Diaspora who grew up in the West? If all Albanians spoke like you, it would go far towards making us feel more reassured. Someone like you I could trust, and I personally would rather have you watching over our cultural monuments more then some Ultra-Nationalistic Serb who might use them for political gain. That is saying a lot.

I would also like to point out, that although we have differing opinions on some points, we are both looking for those areas where we can agree and have common interests, which is good. I would hope that our discussion will show that both sides can be reasonable and differ without resorting to name calling.