Serbs have nobody closer than Croats, says Irinej

Genetically speaking, yes he is right. In fact, religion is the only real thing that separates Serbs from Croats from Bosniak Muslims.

Which is why Yugoslavia was such a good idea in theory. And why Serbs gave 65% of their male population in WWI for the idea that all south Slavs should be united and free from foreign rule.

But every time a foreign power sought to destroy Yugoslavia, Croats and Bosniaks always sided with the occupier whether its in WWII or during the 90s. Serbs had no problems dying for the freedom of other south Slavs, but those same people did nothing but sabotage Yugoslavia every couple of decades.

I'm afraid that with the neo-fascists that are in government right now in Croatia there is very little room for reconciliation atm.

I thought Montenegrins were closest to Serbs?
(cry me a river, 24 February 2016 17:15)

No, Montenegrins are Serbs.

It is true if you Speak Serbo-Croatian as a foreigner is not hard to see its same language, sure there are differences ex ( word for Bred etc) but if you took two 5year old children SRB and CRO they can play with eachother with no isuee no translation needed.

What is more to know is why these two nations who came to Balkans together in 7th century (please nothing wrong with migration we all move just point) what made them fall out so much.

Croatians are closest to us??!!
What is he talking about? Maybe geographically but in no other way.
I wonder how many times do we have to forgive. First world war, second world war and then the 90s. I would like to ask him if this was enough or do we have to keep on forgiving.
Where has us forgiving them for atrocities gotten us?
Only their victims have the right to forgive or not. It is not my place to forgive them for anything. Patriarch should ask the victims if they want to forgive or go through the horrors himself first and then tell himself to forgive.

"Serbs have nobody closer than Croats"

An observation that pisses off so many Croats in so many ways. I have no doubt elements of the HDZ-approved intellectuals are working overtime to eugenically prove the opposite :)

No Arn, No. Redemption is deliverance from sin, and only your God can give you that. What man can do is only take revenge, and I imagine this part of the world has seen enough of that. Over the years, every group has taken revenge and had revenge taken on them, often in ways that no God could condone.

So leave Christ out of this.

Wait a second. I thought Montenegrins were closest to Serbs?

Peggy,
"Anyone who forgets history is doomed to repeat it/comparing Jasenovac with the 90s"

I made no such comparison. Indeed one should learn from history and never forget it - not misuse it to manipulate people or use it for political/individual gain as happened in the 1990s.

"Which were blown out of proportion and propaganda? Croats had no reason to be weary of Serbs.etc."

The idea that Croatia would be a reincarnation of the NDH, for starters. Compare the number of Serbs remaining in Croatian controlled territory vs. the number of Croats in RSK - no desire to exterminate them, seriously? Croats had no reason to fear the Serbs as long as they kept quiet and let them have their way, right? The Serbs actions speak for themselves, there was nothing defensive about it. And since you justify the ethnic cleansing in 1991/92, Im guessing you'll also agree that Operation Storm was a legitimate action from the Croats who were also defending their homes?

You dont advocate revenge, but Im sure you wouldnt mind if someone else decided to take the initiative. Your rants echo those of politicians in the late 80s/early 90s which served as the catalyst for the subsequent carnage. How exactly would Croatia do it again? Considering Serbia's president and prime minister are both Milosevic's ex-lackeys, Id say the odds point towards Serbia. You might be considered a lot of things, but not a realist.

Wow.... The first peace-like comment Irenej has made in ages and...... the comments are full of angry and hateful messages.

WWI and WWI maybe but should be other way around in 90's Serbia was aggressor did not accept Z4, which is much more than Association in Kosovo but still said no, hence military action.
(Bilbao, 24 February 2016 14:13
====================================
With the sort of history Croatia has shown us do you blame the Serbs for taking up arms against independent Croatia? Do you think they should have felt safe, especially when the old Nazi symbols started to come out again? Serbs were defending their homes and safety there not turning agressive for the sake of it.
Serbia as a country did not exist then either. It was Yugoslavia and no country will sit back and allow secession, especially when there was no safety net for Serbs there.

Peggy,

Im glad to hear you dont advocate revenge, and of course no one is forcing you to forgive anyone. But living in the past as you seem to be is exactly what led to the wars in the 90s. Croats dont have some genetic disposition toward exterminating Serbs (since WWII its 3 generations at max) and dont spend anywhere near the same amount of time obsessing about Serbs as you do about Croats. Besides, Serbs proved just as efficient at commiting attrocities in Croatia as the Croats during WWII and the 1990s.

The Serbs may have had their suspicions and fears towards Croatia in the early 90s - some were legitimate while most were blown out of proportiation or fabricated thanks to propaganda. Likewise the Croats had their fears/suspicions towards the Serbs. You mention Operation Storm and Medak Pocket - well I'll mention the explusion of virtually all Croats and other non-Serbs from RSK in 1991-92 which predates your examples and proved the Croats' concerns - though I guess you consider this Serbs simply defending their homes right?

No ethnic group in the region has any right to claim the moral high-ground or exclussive victim status, Serbs included - so get off your high-horse, stop playing the vicitm card and realise its 2016, not 1941 or 1991. The only risk of a repeat of 1941/1991 would come from people like you who need a serious reality check.

Croat and Serbs are so similar like day and night?

Peggy : What is he talking about? Maybe geographically but in no other way. I wonder how many times do we have to forgive. First world war, second world war and then the 90s.

Genetically as well my dear ! Also tell me what was wrong with the Croats during the Ottomans ? Nothing before the Oldenburgs came and spoiled everything.
(rote, 24 February 2016 19:15)
==================================
I was talking about hearts and minds. Yes, we should be very close but that always depended on Croats not us. They chose to side with Germans each time and treated us worse than the Germans did. The next opportunity to exterminate us came quickly again and they took it. Operation Storm and Medak Pocket come to mind.
My problem with the Patriarch is that he is telling us we should continue to forgive when he knows very well that if an opportunity presented itself for them to repeat the horrors they would. He should be encouraging the Pope to tell them that. We know we should live in peace with them and have tried it many times only to be slapped down.
I am not advocating revenge but forgiveness is futile. It doeswn't mean a thing to them.
BTW, that have the Ottomans got to do with the way they are. Nobody can tell you to turn genocidal if it's not in your heart. They don't care about past, present or future. They have one agenda.

Croatians are closest to us??!!
What is he talking about? Maybe geographically but in no other way.
I wonder how many times do we have to forgive. First world war, second world war and then the 90s. I would like to ask him if this was enough or do we have to keep on forgiving.
Where has us forgiving them for atrocities gotten us?
Only their victims have the right to forgive or not. It is not my place to forgive them for anything. Patriarch should ask the victims if they want to forgive or go through the horrors himself first and then tell himself to forgive.
(Peggy, 24 February 2016 13:13)

WWI and WWI maybe but should be other way around in 90's Serbia was aggressor did not accept Z4, which is much more than Association in Kosovo but still said no, hence military action.

That's why Serbs attacked them :)

It was secession which was against the law. Albanians had nothing to fear until they started their terror which went on for decades.
(Peggy, 25 February 2016 12:25)

Sorry Peggy but that's not true..! But I know it wont change your mind even if you did not live in Kosovo at the time. I leave you with this how is it possible in Kosovo 250,000 Serbs ruled 1.8Million Albanians only through the long hand of Serbia ( I have done extensive research, visited the country many times, as well this has been admitted by many Serb scholars).

However the fact remains that Serbian population in Croatia has been decimated I feel sorry for it, trust me same terror was exercised on Albanians.

No, rote you will be better to shush.. in this topic.
Even though I personally think that Crimea should be with Russia, I still don't agree with the violence you used against Ukrainians.
And Ukrainians now your enemies for "life" – even though I think they are too close to you – they hate you.
And please, I’m very curious about the Russian “part” in northern Poland? I'm curious who live there, ethnic Polish or Russians. And how could be possible that you get that part?
For not talking to the rest of your neighbors with which you had conflicts

I have definitely noticed a trend here, Serbs seem to want to state that Croats are closer to them than anyonese compared to how often Croats want to state it. Why? Still dreaming of Yugoslavia or something? We saw how close you guys regard one another in the mid 90's

I am going to ask you a question if Serbs in Croatia can not trust Croatia how can Albanians in Kosovo trust Serbia? ( sorry to mix two stories) but i think it's relevant?

In Balkans the trust has gone so this shows you why Albanians in Kosovo do not want to be under Serbia just like Serbs did not trust Croatia, and Serbia tried to do what Croatia did to 250K Serbs but was stopped by NATO.
(Bilbao, 25 February 2016 02:15)
===========================
Apples and oranges.
Serbs don't have a history of trying to wipe Croats out of Croatia. Serbia never started wars with Croatia but Albanians were always causing trouble and terrorizing Serbian population in Kosovo.
They kept pushing until they had a reaction and even then Serbs were not intending to wipe Albanians out. They wanted to stop Albanian aggression which Albanians were hoping for in order to turn it into a war and get NATO's might to work for them.
It was secession which was against the law. Albanians had nothing to fear until they started their terror which went on for decades.

Let us ask peggy this one simple question. Did Slobodan Milosevic do anything wrong? Constitution of 1974 did not allow Serbia to remove autonomy from Kosovo, but I guess serbs can violate rules.

Serbia as a country did not exist then either. It was Yugoslavia and no country will sit back and allow secession, especially when there was no safety net for Serbs there.
(Peggy, 24 February 2016 23:04)

Just to clarify here that Croatia seceded from the SFRY and the SFRY ceased to exist in 1992. The FRY was not the successor of SFRY. The FRY was a new country composed of Serbia and Montenegro so I'm not sure whose secession the FRY was concerned about! Nobody seceded from the FRY until 2006 when Montenegro declared independence.

I leave you with this how is it possible in Kosovo 250,000 Serbs ruled 1.8Million Albanians only through the long hand of Serbia ( I have done extensive research, visited the country many times, as well this has been admitted by many Serb scholars).
(Bilbao, 25 February 2016 14:09)

What scholars are those? Your "research" has lots of holes, tell me, what happened to the Serbs after WWII where the population between Albanians and Serbs was more like 60-40%? During Ottoman times in the 14th century it was 90% Serbs and 10% Albanians. Many of those Kosovo Serbs ended up in Vojvodina after the Battle of Kosovo. After TITO took power, more Serbs were forced to leave Kosovo, you seem to forget that Albanians ruled in Kosovo as part of the Yugoslav Communist Party not Serbs.

Blood can only be Reedemed by Blod !.

Why would otherwise Jesus hace sacrifice Himself in this regard ?.

Croatia is not redeemed by and with Blood.

Arn.Sweden.

It was secession which was against the law.
(Peggy, 25 February 2016 12:25)

Are you referring to Serbia's secession from the Ottoman Empire?

No, Montenegrins are Serbs.
(Navi, 24 February 2016 19:09)

Or from the Montenegrins' perspective the above would mean that Serbs are Montenegrins :)

What scholars are those? Your "research" has lots of holes, tell me, what happened to the Serbs after WWII where the population between Albanians and Serbs was more like 60-40%?
(Jugoslavija, 25 February 2016 17:22)

Look at census of 1948 and it says 69% Albanian and 23% Serbs.
up to 1991 Serbian population grew % fell but as result of Albanians growing faster and more.

Many Serbs left for greener lands of Vojvodina after kicking out Germans and Hungarians, after WWI.

Look at census of Vojvodina what happened :

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Vojvodina]

You're right Arn, I'm not a born-again Christian. Actually, I'm an atheist.

Why do people need to rely on being "chosen"to carry out such acts? It means nothing if everybody feels "chosen" (and which follower of religion doesn't believe their religion is the "true"one?)

Just be honest about it. It's people who carry out the horrors on this earth, and it's people who suffer the consequences. If you choose to live in an endless cycle of revenge, you choose it. Don't use your God as a justification for inhuman acts, because everyone else will just use theirs the same way.

So Serbs and Croats are genetically close to one another. Where do they go from there? I blame Catholic religion for messing things up in Europe.

"When Gud Kills and Satan Murders,
it loks the same to the Human(Your) Eye,
but the Aims and Purposes is different."

Actually Arn, it's people who kill/murder, and it's people who are responsible, and it's people who can choose not to do it.

Peggy is quite right in making the distinction between between forgiveness (how/why can such horrors be forgiven?), and revenge (which is just more horror multiplying the original acts).

How on earth can you know if someone's God is telling them to kill, or someone's Satan is telling them to murder? Have a chat with ISIS about this......... Or rather, please don't!

It was secession which was against the law.
(Peggy, 25 February 2016 12:25)

Are you referring to Serbia's secession from the Ottoman Empire?
(icj1, 25 February 2016 14:31)
===…==
Are you feeling OK?
I didn't know international law dated that far back. Thanks for educating me.
(Peggy, 25 February 2016 23:10)

Oh, I thought you were referring to Serbia's law, because as far as international law is concerned, Kosovo's declaration of independence was in accordance with international law. And, in any case, international law did not start after Serbia declared independence. The same way that time did not start after Serbs settled in the Balkans :)

Serbia as a country did not exist then either. It was Yugoslavia and no country will sit back and allow secession, especially when there was no safety net for Serbs there.
(Peggy, 24 February 2016 23:04)

Common Peggy are you saying there is difference between Yugoslavia and Serbia in Jan 1995? Bosnia was already gone, Slovenia, Macedonia so it was Serbia and Montenegro.

Z4 was supposed to be guaranteed by international community, but I do not blame them fearing however you cant deny that there was a dream of connecting Serbian lands in one big country.

I am going to ask you a question if Serbs in Croatia can not trust Croatia how can Albanians in Kosovo trust Serbia? ( sorry to mix two stories) but i think it's relevant?

In Balkans the trust has gone so this shows you why Albanians in Kosovo do not want to be under Serbia just like Serbs did not trust Croatia, and Serbia tried to do what Croatia did to 250K Serbs but was stopped by NATO.

What else do you expect an Orthodox patriarch to say? Besides Serbia cannot afford living in the past and fighting on several fronts. There must be ceasefire somewhere to make progress
(rote, 25 February 2016 08:14)
=======================
Not forgiving when your experience tells you that it's useless because it keeps repeating isn't the same as revenge.
I never said that there should be revenge.

No, Montenegrins are Serbs.
(Navi, 24 February 2016 19:09)

Or from the Montenegrins' perspective the above would mean that Serbs are Montenegrins :)
(icj1, 25 February 2016 14:45)

Serb's cannot be a black mountain, yoNo, Montenegrins are Serbs.
(Navi, 24 February 2016 19:09)

So you are saying that A=B but BA !!!!!!! Nice logic! It looks like the math principles taught in Serbia are different from the rest of the world lol

Sure pal, I'll go along with this as long as it is once again 'Slaba Srbija, jaka hirvat'. We can have that brotherhood and unity once again.

cry me a river : Wait a second. I thought Montenegrins were closest to Serbs?

Wrong again as Montenegrins are part of the Serbs.


Danilo : The first peace-like comment Irenej

Just return our sites in KIM and you will enjoy all our love ! We will even forget your black deeds.


Peggy : What is he talking about? Maybe geographically but in no other way. I wonder how many times do we have to forgive. First world war, second world war and then the 90s.

Genetically as well my dear ! Also tell me what was wrong with the Croats during the Ottomans ? Nothing before the Oldenburgs came and spoiled everything.

Peggy : My problem with the Patriarch is that he is telling us we should continue to forgive when he knows very well that …

What else do you expect an Orthodox patriarch to say? Besides Serbia cannot afford living in the past and fighting on several fronts. There must be ceasefire somewhere to make progress

I have definitely noticed a trend here, Serbs seem to want to state that Croats are closer to them than anyone's compared to how often Croats want to state it. Why?
Nikolle, 25 February 2016 11:32)

Its called an inferiority complex, which explains why Serbs are constantly claiming their neighbour's territories and histories

If 1% you are "right"? Mr Irnej I can imagine all Croats jumping to the sea and killing themself!

Joni : And Ukrainians now your enemies for "life" – even though I think they are too close to you – they hate you.

UKRAINE IS ON IT’S WAY HOME AS THE EXPERIMENT IS FINISHED SO FORGET ABOUT IT.

FOR Sasa.P

As i told you from 1 may minimum salary will be 280 euro and from 1 january 330 euro , but we have a new automatical law for minimum salary , it will have to be seince 2017 always 50% of average salary . http://www.economica.net/incep-negocierile-pe-salariul-minim--este-deja-la-46prc--din-cel-mediu--peste-media-ue--valoric--doar-al-bulgarilor-e-mai-mic_115195.html

Dear Sasa.P in that link you can read .

We have now gouvern at power who is as TURKEY with megaloman ambitions + Romanians from West have to pay a tax !

I dont think you are a Bornagain Christian !.

I Quote -

No Arn, No. Redemption is deliverance from sin, and only your God can give you that. What man can do is only take revenge, and I imagine this part of the world has seen enough of that. Over the years, every group has taken revenge and had revenge taken on them, often in ways that no God could condone.

So leave Christ out of this.

Comment - It is the Blood(of Christ) which cleanset from SIN.
and that Blood is the Blood of God.
Its a free gift for those who repent and lets the Blood of Jesus Chist cleanse them from their Sins.

Further -

Its God who is the Revenger and HE uses Whomever HE Choses for that Mission.

Arn.

TO -

Don't use your God as a justification for inhuman acts, because everyone else will just use theirs the same way.
(TC, 24 February 2016 21:44) # Comment link

Comment - Well War is sertainly an awfull ting and Unhuman.

Unhuman ! - its eiter Divine or Satanic -
and only those with God can bear it.
When Gud Kills and Satan Murders,
it loks the same to the Human(Your) Eye,
but the Aims and Purposes is different.

Croatias Genocide of the Serbians in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina during World War Two,
sertainly was from the Evil One because the Evil One knows the intent of God Regarding the Serbian People,
as the German Nazis of the Jews.

So I still hold to my Position.

Judgement is forthcomming.

Arn.Sweden.

Peggy,
But living in the past as you seem to be is exactly what led to the wars in the 90s. Croats dont have some genetic disposition toward exterminating Serbs (since WWII Besides, Serbs proved just as efficient at commiting attrocities in Croatia as the Croats during WWII and the 1990s.
--------
Anyone who forgets history is doomed to repeat it. That is not being stuck in the past. Are you seriously comparing Jasenovac to the 90s?
========

The Serbs may have had their suspicions and fears towards Croatia in the early 90s - some were legitimate while most were blown out of proportiation or fabricated thanks to propaganda. - though I guess you consider this Serbs simply defending their homes right?
------------
Which ones were blown out of proportion and propaganda? Croats had no reason to be weary of Serbs. Serbs never attacked them first and never had a desire to exterminate them. No need to fear and yes Serbs were defending their homes and families.
===========

No ethnic group in the region has any right to claim the moral high-ground or exclussive victim status, Serbs included - so get off your high-horse, stop playing the vicitm card and realise its 2016, not 1941 or 1991. The only risk of a repeat of 1941/1991 would come from people like you who need a serious reality check.
(aaa, 25 February 2016 14:08)
------
Since I dobn't advocate revenge how is a threat from somone like me possible? I am a realist adn can see that Croatia would do it again.

It was secession which was against the law.
(Peggy, 25 February 2016 12:25)

Are you referring to Serbia's secession from the Ottoman Empire?
(icj1, 25 February 2016 14:31)
=============================
Are you feeling OK?
I didn't know international law dated that far back. Thanks for educating me.

No, Montenegrins are Serbs.
(Navi, 24 February 2016 19:09)

Or from the Montenegrins' perspective the above would mean that Serbs are Montenegrins :)
(icj1, 25 February 2016 14:45)

Serb's cannot be a black mountain, yoNo, Montenegrins are Serbs.
(Navi, 24 February 2016 19:09)

Or from the Montenegrins' perspective the above would mean that Serbs are Montenegrins :)
(icj1, 25 February 2016 14:45)

Serb's cannot be a black mountain.

As a Chinese-American, I have had chance of traveling extensively in Croatia and Serbia, meeting and watching both peoples. To make a long analysis short: they were one people, but they became two separate groups through centuries. One is westernized and eager to forget their Slavic root; the other is still steadfast with their root and religion even after centuries of Ottoman oppression. One is full of supremacy and hatred; the other is full of revenge.

FOR Sasa.P

As i told you from 1 may minimum salary will be 280 euro and from 1 january 330 euro , but we have a new automatical law for minimum salary , it will have to be seince 2017 always 50% of average salary . http://www.economica.net/incep-negocierile-pe-salariul-minim--este-deja-la-46prc--din-cel-mediu--peste-media-ue--valoric--doar-al-bulgarilor-e-mai-mic_115195.html

Dear Sasa.P in that link you can read .

We have now gouvern at power who is as TURKEY with megaloman ambitions + Romanians from West have to pay a tax !

Croatians are closest to us??!!
What is he talking about? Maybe geographically but in no other way.
I wonder how many times do we have to forgive. First world war, second world war and then the 90s. I would like to ask him if this was enough or do we have to keep on forgiving.
Where has us forgiving them for atrocities gotten us?
Only their victims have the right to forgive or not. It is not my place to forgive them for anything. Patriarch should ask the victims if they want to forgive or go through the horrors himself first and then tell himself to forgive.
(Peggy, 24 February 2016 13:13)

WWI and WWI maybe but should be other way around in 90's Serbia was aggressor did not accept Z4, which is much more than Association in Kosovo but still said no, hence military action.

Croatians are closest to us??!!
What is he talking about? Maybe geographically but in no other way.
I wonder how many times do we have to forgive. First world war, second world war and then the 90s. I would like to ask him if this was enough or do we have to keep on forgiving.
Where has us forgiving them for atrocities gotten us?
Only their victims have the right to forgive or not. It is not my place to forgive them for anything. Patriarch should ask the victims if they want to forgive or go through the horrors himself first and then tell himself to forgive.

Blood can only be Reedemed by Blod !.

Why would otherwise Jesus hace sacrifice Himself in this regard ?.

Croatia is not redeemed by and with Blood.

Arn.Sweden.

That's why Serbs attacked them :)

Peggy,
But living in the past as you seem to be is exactly what led to the wars in the 90s. Croats dont have some genetic disposition toward exterminating Serbs (since WWII Besides, Serbs proved just as efficient at commiting attrocities in Croatia as the Croats during WWII and the 1990s.
--------
Anyone who forgets history is doomed to repeat it. That is not being stuck in the past. Are you seriously comparing Jasenovac to the 90s?
========

The Serbs may have had their suspicions and fears towards Croatia in the early 90s - some were legitimate while most were blown out of proportiation or fabricated thanks to propaganda. - though I guess you consider this Serbs simply defending their homes right?
------------
Which ones were blown out of proportion and propaganda? Croats had no reason to be weary of Serbs. Serbs never attacked them first and never had a desire to exterminate them. No need to fear and yes Serbs were defending their homes and families.
===========

No ethnic group in the region has any right to claim the moral high-ground or exclussive victim status, Serbs included - so get off your high-horse, stop playing the vicitm card and realise its 2016, not 1941 or 1991. The only risk of a repeat of 1941/1991 would come from people like you who need a serious reality check.
(aaa, 25 February 2016 14:08)
------
Since I dobn't advocate revenge how is a threat from somone like me possible? I am a realist adn can see that Croatia would do it again.

Wow.... The first peace-like comment Irenej has made in ages and...... the comments are full of angry and hateful messages.

cry me a river : Wait a second. I thought Montenegrins were closest to Serbs?

Wrong again as Montenegrins are part of the Serbs.


Danilo : The first peace-like comment Irenej

Just return our sites in KIM and you will enjoy all our love ! We will even forget your black deeds.


Peggy : What is he talking about? Maybe geographically but in no other way. I wonder how many times do we have to forgive. First world war, second world war and then the 90s.

Genetically as well my dear ! Also tell me what was wrong with the Croats during the Ottomans ? Nothing before the Oldenburgs came and spoiled everything.

I leave you with this how is it possible in Kosovo 250,000 Serbs ruled 1.8Million Albanians only through the long hand of Serbia ( I have done extensive research, visited the country many times, as well this has been admitted by many Serb scholars).
(Bilbao, 25 February 2016 14:09)

What scholars are those? Your "research" has lots of holes, tell me, what happened to the Serbs after WWII where the population between Albanians and Serbs was more like 60-40%? During Ottoman times in the 14th century it was 90% Serbs and 10% Albanians. Many of those Kosovo Serbs ended up in Vojvodina after the Battle of Kosovo. After TITO took power, more Serbs were forced to leave Kosovo, you seem to forget that Albanians ruled in Kosovo as part of the Yugoslav Communist Party not Serbs.

I thought Montenegrins were closest to Serbs?
(cry me a river, 24 February 2016 17:15)

No, Montenegrins are Serbs.

WWI and WWI maybe but should be other way around in 90's Serbia was aggressor did not accept Z4, which is much more than Association in Kosovo but still said no, hence military action.
(Bilbao, 24 February 2016 14:13
====================================
With the sort of history Croatia has shown us do you blame the Serbs for taking up arms against independent Croatia? Do you think they should have felt safe, especially when the old Nazi symbols started to come out again? Serbs were defending their homes and safety there not turning agressive for the sake of it.
Serbia as a country did not exist then either. It was Yugoslavia and no country will sit back and allow secession, especially when there was no safety net for Serbs there.

Joni : And Ukrainians now your enemies for "life" – even though I think they are too close to you – they hate you.

UKRAINE IS ON IT’S WAY HOME AS THE EXPERIMENT IS FINISHED SO FORGET ABOUT IT.

Genetically speaking, yes he is right. In fact, religion is the only real thing that separates Serbs from Croats from Bosniak Muslims.

Which is why Yugoslavia was such a good idea in theory. And why Serbs gave 65% of their male population in WWI for the idea that all south Slavs should be united and free from foreign rule.

But every time a foreign power sought to destroy Yugoslavia, Croats and Bosniaks always sided with the occupier whether its in WWII or during the 90s. Serbs had no problems dying for the freedom of other south Slavs, but those same people did nothing but sabotage Yugoslavia every couple of decades.

I'm afraid that with the neo-fascists that are in government right now in Croatia there is very little room for reconciliation atm.

I am going to ask you a question if Serbs in Croatia can not trust Croatia how can Albanians in Kosovo trust Serbia? ( sorry to mix two stories) but i think it's relevant?

In Balkans the trust has gone so this shows you why Albanians in Kosovo do not want to be under Serbia just like Serbs did not trust Croatia, and Serbia tried to do what Croatia did to 250K Serbs but was stopped by NATO.
(Bilbao, 25 February 2016 02:15)
===========================
Apples and oranges.
Serbs don't have a history of trying to wipe Croats out of Croatia. Serbia never started wars with Croatia but Albanians were always causing trouble and terrorizing Serbian population in Kosovo.
They kept pushing until they had a reaction and even then Serbs were not intending to wipe Albanians out. They wanted to stop Albanian aggression which Albanians were hoping for in order to turn it into a war and get NATO's might to work for them.
It was secession which was against the law. Albanians had nothing to fear until they started their terror which went on for decades.

Wait a second. I thought Montenegrins were closest to Serbs?

I have definitely noticed a trend here, Serbs seem to want to state that Croats are closer to them than anyonese compared to how often Croats want to state it. Why? Still dreaming of Yugoslavia or something? We saw how close you guys regard one another in the mid 90's

So Serbs and Croats are genetically close to one another. Where do they go from there? I blame Catholic religion for messing things up in Europe.

Croat and Serbs are so similar like day and night?

Sure pal, I'll go along with this as long as it is once again 'Slaba Srbija, jaka hirvat'. We can have that brotherhood and unity once again.

"Serbs have nobody closer than Croats"

An observation that pisses off so many Croats in so many ways. I have no doubt elements of the HDZ-approved intellectuals are working overtime to eugenically prove the opposite :)

Peggy : What is he talking about? Maybe geographically but in no other way. I wonder how many times do we have to forgive. First world war, second world war and then the 90s.

Genetically as well my dear ! Also tell me what was wrong with the Croats during the Ottomans ? Nothing before the Oldenburgs came and spoiled everything.
(rote, 24 February 2016 19:15)
==================================
I was talking about hearts and minds. Yes, we should be very close but that always depended on Croats not us. They chose to side with Germans each time and treated us worse than the Germans did. The next opportunity to exterminate us came quickly again and they took it. Operation Storm and Medak Pocket come to mind.
My problem with the Patriarch is that he is telling us we should continue to forgive when he knows very well that if an opportunity presented itself for them to repeat the horrors they would. He should be encouraging the Pope to tell them that. We know we should live in peace with them and have tried it many times only to be slapped down.
I am not advocating revenge but forgiveness is futile. It doeswn't mean a thing to them.
BTW, that have the Ottomans got to do with the way they are. Nobody can tell you to turn genocidal if it's not in your heart. They don't care about past, present or future. They have one agenda.

No, rote you will be better to shush.. in this topic.
Even though I personally think that Crimea should be with Russia, I still don't agree with the violence you used against Ukrainians.
And Ukrainians now your enemies for "life" – even though I think they are too close to you – they hate you.
And please, I’m very curious about the Russian “part” in northern Poland? I'm curious who live there, ethnic Polish or Russians. And how could be possible that you get that part?
For not talking to the rest of your neighbors with which you had conflicts

It was secession which was against the law. Albanians had nothing to fear until they started their terror which went on for decades.
(Peggy, 25 February 2016 12:25)

Sorry Peggy but that's not true..! But I know it wont change your mind even if you did not live in Kosovo at the time. I leave you with this how is it possible in Kosovo 250,000 Serbs ruled 1.8Million Albanians only through the long hand of Serbia ( I have done extensive research, visited the country many times, as well this has been admitted by many Serb scholars).

However the fact remains that Serbian population in Croatia has been decimated I feel sorry for it, trust me same terror was exercised on Albanians.

It was secession which was against the law.
(Peggy, 25 February 2016 12:25)

Are you referring to Serbia's secession from the Ottoman Empire?
(icj1, 25 February 2016 14:31)
=============================
Are you feeling OK?
I didn't know international law dated that far back. Thanks for educating me.

Let us ask peggy this one simple question. Did Slobodan Milosevic do anything wrong? Constitution of 1974 did not allow Serbia to remove autonomy from Kosovo, but I guess serbs can violate rules.

No, Montenegrins are Serbs.
(Navi, 24 February 2016 19:09)

Or from the Montenegrins' perspective the above would mean that Serbs are Montenegrins :)

TO -

Don't use your God as a justification for inhuman acts, because everyone else will just use theirs the same way.
(TC, 24 February 2016 21:44) # Comment link

Comment - Well War is sertainly an awfull ting and Unhuman.

Unhuman ! - its eiter Divine or Satanic -
and only those with God can bear it.
When Gud Kills and Satan Murders,
it loks the same to the Human(Your) Eye,
but the Aims and Purposes is different.

Croatias Genocide of the Serbians in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina during World War Two,
sertainly was from the Evil One because the Evil One knows the intent of God Regarding the Serbian People,
as the German Nazis of the Jews.

So I still hold to my Position.

Judgement is forthcomming.

Arn.Sweden.

It was secession which was against the law.
(Peggy, 25 February 2016 12:25)

Are you referring to Serbia's secession from the Ottoman Empire?

No, Montenegrins are Serbs.
(Navi, 24 February 2016 19:09)

Or from the Montenegrins' perspective the above would mean that Serbs are Montenegrins :)
(icj1, 25 February 2016 14:45)

Serb's cannot be a black mountain, yoNo, Montenegrins are Serbs.
(Navi, 24 February 2016 19:09)

Or from the Montenegrins' perspective the above would mean that Serbs are Montenegrins :)
(icj1, 25 February 2016 14:45)

Serb's cannot be a black mountain.

No, Montenegrins are Serbs.
(Navi, 24 February 2016 19:09)

Or from the Montenegrins' perspective the above would mean that Serbs are Montenegrins :)
(icj1, 25 February 2016 14:45)

Serb's cannot be a black mountain, yoNo, Montenegrins are Serbs.
(Navi, 24 February 2016 19:09)

So you are saying that A=B but BA !!!!!!! Nice logic! It looks like the math principles taught in Serbia are different from the rest of the world lol

It was secession which was against the law.
(Peggy, 25 February 2016 12:25)

Are you referring to Serbia's secession from the Ottoman Empire?
(icj1, 25 February 2016 14:31)
===…==
Are you feeling OK?
I didn't know international law dated that far back. Thanks for educating me.
(Peggy, 25 February 2016 23:10)

Oh, I thought you were referring to Serbia's law, because as far as international law is concerned, Kosovo's declaration of independence was in accordance with international law. And, in any case, international law did not start after Serbia declared independence. The same way that time did not start after Serbs settled in the Balkans :)

It is true if you Speak Serbo-Croatian as a foreigner is not hard to see its same language, sure there are differences ex ( word for Bred etc) but if you took two 5year old children SRB and CRO they can play with eachother with no isuee no translation needed.

What is more to know is why these two nations who came to Balkans together in 7th century (please nothing wrong with migration we all move just point) what made them fall out so much.

Serbia as a country did not exist then either. It was Yugoslavia and no country will sit back and allow secession, especially when there was no safety net for Serbs there.
(Peggy, 24 February 2016 23:04)

Common Peggy are you saying there is difference between Yugoslavia and Serbia in Jan 1995? Bosnia was already gone, Slovenia, Macedonia so it was Serbia and Montenegro.

Z4 was supposed to be guaranteed by international community, but I do not blame them fearing however you cant deny that there was a dream of connecting Serbian lands in one big country.

I am going to ask you a question if Serbs in Croatia can not trust Croatia how can Albanians in Kosovo trust Serbia? ( sorry to mix two stories) but i think it's relevant?

In Balkans the trust has gone so this shows you why Albanians in Kosovo do not want to be under Serbia just like Serbs did not trust Croatia, and Serbia tried to do what Croatia did to 250K Serbs but was stopped by NATO.

Peggy : My problem with the Patriarch is that he is telling us we should continue to forgive when he knows very well that …

What else do you expect an Orthodox patriarch to say? Besides Serbia cannot afford living in the past and fighting on several fronts. There must be ceasefire somewhere to make progress

What else do you expect an Orthodox patriarch to say? Besides Serbia cannot afford living in the past and fighting on several fronts. There must be ceasefire somewhere to make progress
(rote, 25 February 2016 08:14)
=======================
Not forgiving when your experience tells you that it's useless because it keeps repeating isn't the same as revenge.
I never said that there should be revenge.

Serbia as a country did not exist then either. It was Yugoslavia and no country will sit back and allow secession, especially when there was no safety net for Serbs there.
(Peggy, 24 February 2016 23:04)

Just to clarify here that Croatia seceded from the SFRY and the SFRY ceased to exist in 1992. The FRY was not the successor of SFRY. The FRY was a new country composed of Serbia and Montenegro so I'm not sure whose secession the FRY was concerned about! Nobody seceded from the FRY until 2006 when Montenegro declared independence.

Peggy,
"Anyone who forgets history is doomed to repeat it/comparing Jasenovac with the 90s"

I made no such comparison. Indeed one should learn from history and never forget it - not misuse it to manipulate people or use it for political/individual gain as happened in the 1990s.

"Which were blown out of proportion and propaganda? Croats had no reason to be weary of Serbs.etc."

The idea that Croatia would be a reincarnation of the NDH, for starters. Compare the number of Serbs remaining in Croatian controlled territory vs. the number of Croats in RSK - no desire to exterminate them, seriously? Croats had no reason to fear the Serbs as long as they kept quiet and let them have their way, right? The Serbs actions speak for themselves, there was nothing defensive about it. And since you justify the ethnic cleansing in 1991/92, Im guessing you'll also agree that Operation Storm was a legitimate action from the Croats who were also defending their homes?

You dont advocate revenge, but Im sure you wouldnt mind if someone else decided to take the initiative. Your rants echo those of politicians in the late 80s/early 90s which served as the catalyst for the subsequent carnage. How exactly would Croatia do it again? Considering Serbia's president and prime minister are both Milosevic's ex-lackeys, Id say the odds point towards Serbia. You might be considered a lot of things, but not a realist.

I dont think you are a Bornagain Christian !.

I Quote -

No Arn, No. Redemption is deliverance from sin, and only your God can give you that. What man can do is only take revenge, and I imagine this part of the world has seen enough of that. Over the years, every group has taken revenge and had revenge taken on them, often in ways that no God could condone.

So leave Christ out of this.

Comment - It is the Blood(of Christ) which cleanset from SIN.
and that Blood is the Blood of God.
Its a free gift for those who repent and lets the Blood of Jesus Chist cleanse them from their Sins.

Further -

Its God who is the Revenger and HE uses Whomever HE Choses for that Mission.

Arn.

If 1% you are "right"? Mr Irnej I can imagine all Croats jumping to the sea and killing themself!

Peggy,

Im glad to hear you dont advocate revenge, and of course no one is forcing you to forgive anyone. But living in the past as you seem to be is exactly what led to the wars in the 90s. Croats dont have some genetic disposition toward exterminating Serbs (since WWII its 3 generations at max) and dont spend anywhere near the same amount of time obsessing about Serbs as you do about Croats. Besides, Serbs proved just as efficient at commiting attrocities in Croatia as the Croats during WWII and the 1990s.

The Serbs may have had their suspicions and fears towards Croatia in the early 90s - some were legitimate while most were blown out of proportiation or fabricated thanks to propaganda. Likewise the Croats had their fears/suspicions towards the Serbs. You mention Operation Storm and Medak Pocket - well I'll mention the explusion of virtually all Croats and other non-Serbs from RSK in 1991-92 which predates your examples and proved the Croats' concerns - though I guess you consider this Serbs simply defending their homes right?

No ethnic group in the region has any right to claim the moral high-ground or exclussive victim status, Serbs included - so get off your high-horse, stop playing the vicitm card and realise its 2016, not 1941 or 1991. The only risk of a repeat of 1941/1991 would come from people like you who need a serious reality check.

What scholars are those? Your "research" has lots of holes, tell me, what happened to the Serbs after WWII where the population between Albanians and Serbs was more like 60-40%?
(Jugoslavija, 25 February 2016 17:22)

Look at census of 1948 and it says 69% Albanian and 23% Serbs.
up to 1991 Serbian population grew % fell but as result of Albanians growing faster and more.

Many Serbs left for greener lands of Vojvodina after kicking out Germans and Hungarians, after WWI.

Look at census of Vojvodina what happened :

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Vojvodina]

As a Chinese-American, I have had chance of traveling extensively in Croatia and Serbia, meeting and watching both peoples. To make a long analysis short: they were one people, but they became two separate groups through centuries. One is westernized and eager to forget their Slavic root; the other is still steadfast with their root and religion even after centuries of Ottoman oppression. One is full of supremacy and hatred; the other is full of revenge.

No Arn, No. Redemption is deliverance from sin, and only your God can give you that. What man can do is only take revenge, and I imagine this part of the world has seen enough of that. Over the years, every group has taken revenge and had revenge taken on them, often in ways that no God could condone.

So leave Christ out of this.

You're right Arn, I'm not a born-again Christian. Actually, I'm an atheist.

Why do people need to rely on being "chosen"to carry out such acts? It means nothing if everybody feels "chosen" (and which follower of religion doesn't believe their religion is the "true"one?)

Just be honest about it. It's people who carry out the horrors on this earth, and it's people who suffer the consequences. If you choose to live in an endless cycle of revenge, you choose it. Don't use your God as a justification for inhuman acts, because everyone else will just use theirs the same way.

"When Gud Kills and Satan Murders,
it loks the same to the Human(Your) Eye,
but the Aims and Purposes is different."

Actually Arn, it's people who kill/murder, and it's people who are responsible, and it's people who can choose not to do it.

Peggy is quite right in making the distinction between between forgiveness (how/why can such horrors be forgiven?), and revenge (which is just more horror multiplying the original acts).

How on earth can you know if someone's God is telling them to kill, or someone's Satan is telling them to murder? Have a chat with ISIS about this......... Or rather, please don't!

I have definitely noticed a trend here, Serbs seem to want to state that Croats are closer to them than anyone's compared to how often Croats want to state it. Why?
Nikolle, 25 February 2016 11:32)

Its called an inferiority complex, which explains why Serbs are constantly claiming their neighbour's territories and histories