Bakir Izetbegović has said Bosnia "will not extradite its people to Serbia," and advised the neighboring country "to reconsider its behavior toward Bosnia."
Thing is, the only things that are not speculation are:
1) Tudjman accepted the plan
2) Maric ripped it up without reading it
what could have/would have happened is speculation.
Serbs' rejection of Plan Z was an atrocious strategical error on their part.
If the Croats did attack after acceptance of the plan, the story would have been, "war-mongering Croats broke the internationally-brokered peace plan". Instead it's "Serbs were offered 99.9% of what they wanted. Serb leaders in Belgrade and Krajna accepted it, but the military leader in RSK ripped it up without reading it"
On August 2, negotiations took place in Geneva for Krajina to enter a political settlement with Zagreb. The basis for negotiations in Geneva was a modified version of the Z-4 Plan which would treat the eastern and western part of Krajina equally. On August 2, Krajina Prime Minister Milan Babic publicly declared his acceptance the Z-4 Plan through negotiations with U.S. Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith. Croatia refused to acknowledge the plan's acceptance by Krajina authorities, since Krajina president Mile Martić refused even to receive plan.
Kosovo independence,
Show me one serb that supports Kosovo independence, only one.
(Daniel, 3 February 2014 18:09)
I could introduce you to 100s. Of the people I know in Belgrade, I can only think of a handful that are not for Kosovo independence. Most people regard this as a black-hole issue that needs to be gotten rid of.
You couldn't find 500 people in Belgrade to come out to protest for Kosovo. When DSS organizes these kinds of protests, they're always busing in people from other cities.
I think you might be a little out of touch from Serbia. You might find people's attitudes a little different from whatever 'Serbia night' you're attending in some dreary pub in the outskirts of whatever American/Canadian/Australian city you happen to live in.
Here is a link that show croat politicians talking about the z4 plan. They say that if the krajina serbs would accept the plan oluja would still have taken place, maybe not in August but for sure in October or November since they never would have accepted the outcast of the plan.
Do you consider the ethnic cleansing of serbs from Sarajevo and Croatia to be a genocide? After all its quite clear that the muslims and croats planned to exterminate "a part of a Group" or "a whole Group" from a certain area isn´t it?
(Daniel, 3 February 2014 18:07)
Sorry, I missed this.
It might fit the definition. I'm not sure though. There's not the same level of systematic killing. Both are definitely ethnic cleansing by intimidation. The situation in Croatia is complicated by the fact that the Serbs rejected Plan Z, a very good plan that gave them 99.9% of what they wanted. They said no and then there was Operation Storm. They also evacuated themselves. They did this for good reason, as is evidenced by the fact that the Croats killed many who were left behind.
Same with Sarajevo. Serbs left of their own accord but, like Croatia, life for them was made impossible to return after the fact. So both a definitely horrendous crimes for which no one has answered for.
Whatever you decided to name any of them is kind of beside the point. It's important to have a victim-based account of everything that happened, without playing with numbers or definitions to further some kind of agenda, as you are trying to do with Srebrenica.
I realise that many Serbs dislike the ICTY with a passion but progress cannot be made in the region if everyone who is acquitted, from whichever country, is then pursued again by national authorities.
(Ned Taylor, 3 February 2014 18:59)
==============================
How much progress can be made when those acquitals are politically motivated and justice has not been served?
In the case of Oric, he even boasted about his deeds. How do you think Serbs can put that behind and reconcile when criminals like him are laughing all the way out of Hague?
To move on there must be justice. Do you think Serbs got any justice at Hague?
I realise that many Serbs dislike the ICTY with a passion but progress cannot be made in the region if everyone who is acquitted, from whichever country, is then pursued again by national authorities.
(Ned Taylor, 3 February 2014 18:59)
==============================
How much progress can be made when those acquitals are politically motivated and justice has not been served?
In the case of Oric, he even boasted about his deeds. How do you think Serbs can put that behind and reconcile when criminals like him are laughing all the way out of Hague?
To move on there must be justice. Do you think Serbs got any justice at Hague?
@ Daniel...Bam Bam you are wrong, Oric was actually sentenced to 2 years for war crimes so he is a convicted war-criminal.
Seriously... 2 years jail is not a war crime. People get lengthy sentences for stealing cars. 2 years jail would be considered time served as part of the Oric being in custody while on trial. I can guarantee you that your infamous leader Vojislav Seselj will never step foot on Serbian soil again.
Im not denying the fact that there were horrendous crimes committed by all sides but you fail to answer my question. Do you consider the ethnic cleansing of serbs from Sarajevo and Croatia to be a genocide? After all its quite clear that the muslims and croats planned to exterminate "a part of a Group" or "a whole Group" from a certain area isn´t it?
A nobody you say?
Edward Herman received his Bachelor of Arts from the University of Pennsylvania in 1945 and PhD in 1953 from the University of California, Berkeley.The Srebrenica massacre of "8,000 men and boys" dates back to a Red Cross claim about missing people in July-August 1995, when no real data were available,10 yet that same number is cited today, in a small miracle of coincidence and persistence. In fact, the 8,000 is now taken as possibly an underestimate -- the EU resolution of January 15, 2009 speaks of "more than 8,000" and this is commonplace. It will be recalled that the initial 9-11 estimate of deaths from the New York City Trade Center attack -- 6,886 -- fell subsequently to 2,749, a decline of 60 percent. The figure for Muslim dead in Bosnia fell from some 250,000 in 1992-3 to fewer than 100,000 today, a fall of well over 60 percent. The number allegedly massacred by the Serbs in Kosovo during the 1999 bombing war fell from U.S. official claims of 100,00, 250,000, and as high as 500,000, to an official (and still inflated) figure of 11,000 today, a drop of 90 percent or more. But Srebrenica's number stays the same -- not because it is based on evidence, but because it is so central and useful a political construct, and is repeated by members of the establishment with the assurance of true believers.
The 8,000 is sustained in part because the follow-up list of missing persons eventually assembled was done by means of an appeal to the Bosnian Muslim population to come forward with names of the missing. Again, by the continuing miracle, this list still approximates 8,000. But it was not collected on any kind of scientific basis, and it has been found that some of the names are of men who died before July 1995, quite a few seem to have voted in the 1996 election, and the number has never been sustained by forensic evidence. As late as 2001 the ICTY had only located some 2,100 bodies in the Srebrenica area, not many identified or shown to have been July 1995 Srebrenica victims.11 Later grave finds have been similarly problematic. A basic problem throughout has been the fact that there was severe fighting between the thousands of Bosnian Muslim 25th regiment soldiers, who left Srebrenica for Bosnian Muslim lines on or shortly before July 11, 1995, and Bosnian Serb forces. Both Bosnian Muslim and Serb officials have estimated that 2,000 or more Muslim soldiers were killed in this retreat; the Bosnian Muslim Chief of the Supreme Command Staff General Enver Hadzihasanovic testified in the trial of Radislav Krstic that he could "claim for certainty that 2,628 members, both soldiers and commanding officers, members of the 28th Division, were killed" during this retreat.12
The fact that a well-armed Bosnian Muslim regiment of several thousand men was located in Srebrenica, and retreated without putting up any defense against a Serb attack force of 200, shows that the charges against the lightly armed Dutch peacekeeping contingent of 69 men are ridiculous and misdirected. Why not sue the Bosnian Muslims responsible for the retreat for any deaths that followed in the Srebrenica area? But in the spirit of the memorial, and the narrative and ideology on which it rests,19 the Bosnian Muslims can only be victims, and the UN and tiny Dutch protection force must bear the burden of responsibility (along with the Serbs).
Another Srebrenica memorial myth is that the memorial and political actions associated with it are necessary for real peace. In the words of the EU resolution, "there cannot be real peace without justice," which means getting Mladic into court, and this is essential for "reconciliation" so that "civilians of all ethnicities may overcome the tensions of the past." But how about justice for the thousands of Serbs killed from the UN-protected Srebrenica base between 1992 and July 1995, the 250,000 driven out of Krajina in Operation Storm, and the thousands of Serbs and Roma driven out of Kosovo since the NATO takeover and installation of the KLA in power? NATO's bombing war against Yugoslavia in March-June 1999 was in violation of the UN Charter,
Bam Bam: My comments regarding Oric stem from his involvement in drug dealing, trafficking girls for prostitution and other large scale organised criminal activities and do not relate to his Hague trial. My point was that irrespective of his 'ordinary' criminal activities he should not have to face the same charges in Serbia for which he was cleared in the Hague. I realise that many Serbs dislike the ICTY with a passion but progress cannot be made in the region if everyone who is acquitted, from whichever country, is then pursued again by national authorities.
Do you have any documents whatsoever that prooves that the serbs wanted to exterminate every non-serb from a certain area
-------
you're going in circles. they wanted to eliminate Bosniacs from the Drina valley. Killing them all wasn't necessary to do this. Splitting morbid hairs over whether or not this is actually 'genocide' or just a massive massacre with the intent to effect ethnic cleansing is a bit pointless.
In his examination of Srebrenica-related bodies, the forensic pathologist Ljubisa Simic found that in 77% of cases it was either impossible to determine how they died, or death in combat was strongly indicated.
----------
I'm sure this discredited historical revisionist thinks that maybe they died laughing. or maybe they all killed themselves to make the Serbs look bad.
Sorry. One nobody writing for Serbian blogs doesn't outweigh the mountain of scientific evidence that exists on this topic.
As for Seseljs wishes they were totally irellevant as he had no Power what so ever to accomplish them. Its like me saying I want to be the president of the US. We are all allowed to Dream.
(Daniel@hotmail.com, 3 February 2014 14:34)
You said "no Serbian politician said anything about greater serbia", I have you an example one one and you said "that doesn't count". lol. you're like these Serbs that say, "no Serbs support the EU, Kosovo independence, etc", then when given an example, you say "well, no TRUE Serb".
And if the serbs indeed intended to exterminate the muslims how come the women were spared? After all they are the ones who give birth right? Let me remind you that in Jasenovac, a real GENOCIDE not even Children not e spared let alone women.
Monbiot quotes disparagingly from the foreword to The Srebrenica Massacre: "It claims that the 8,000 deaths at Srebrenica are 'an unsupportable exaggeration'." He implies that the quote is attributable to Edward Herman, even though it is a 300-page collection with multiple contributors, and a different gentleman wrote the foreword.
Similarly, Monbiot writes that "the book [sic] claims that the market massacres in Sarajevo were carried out by Bosnian Muslim provocateurs". But multiple contributors cite many sources who make this claim, among whom are UN secretary general Boutros Boutros-Ghali, Lord David Owen, General Michael Rose, and the British joint intelligence committee.
It is "classed" as a genocide. The UN definition of genocide is wanting to destroy "in whole or part" a group from an area, not killing every single member of that group.
Well if thats the case someone committes genocide every day since, due to you even killing one person could be defined as a genocide. After all, even one person is "part of a whole Group" right? But I guess that you dont consider the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Sarajevo and Croatia for instance to be a genocide?d
Do you have any documents whatsoever that prooves that the serbs wanted to exterminate every non-serb from a certain area? Just what I thougth, you dont.In his column, George Monbiot attacked our work on Bosnia and Rwanda as "genocide denial" and "revisionism" (Left and libertarian right cohabit in the weird world of the genocide belittlers, 14 June). According to Monbiot, "DNA screening" has "identified the corpses of 6,595" Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica. But DNA does not establish mode or time of death, and the commission investigating these deaths performs its work behind a veil of confidentiality.
In his examination of Srebrenica-related bodies, the forensic pathologist Ljubisa Simic found that in 77% of cases it was either impossible to determine how they died, or death in combat was strongly indicated.
Monbiot quotes disparagingly from the foreword to The Srebrenica Massacre: "It claims that the 8,000 deaths at Srebrenica are 'an unsupportable exaggeration'."
As for Seseljs wishes they were totally irellevant as he had no Power what so ever to accomplish them. Its like me saying I want to be the president of the US. We are all allowed to Dream.
No serb politician ever mentioned "greater serbia".
-------------
uuuuuuh. Seselj?
its not classified as a genocide as only men were killed in Srebrenica and no women.
---------------
It is "classed" as a genocide. The UN definition of genocide is wanting to destroy "in whole or part" a group from an area, not killing every single member of that group.
It's like you're trying to argue that no Jews were murdered during WWII in Germany because "murder" describes a crime under law and it wasn't against the law to kill Jews. Even if you're right, so what?
JNA had no role whatsoever in the bosnian war
-----------
how can you say that Naser Oric is decpicable when he was never sentenced for alleged war crimes. Only if Alija had more men like him the Serbs would never have crossed the Drina into Zvornik. When a man is not guilty in a court of law he's not guilty it's that simple. Please understand that 99% of Serbs were found guilty of crimes so sadistic it makes Jasenovac look like a girls choir.
(Bam Bam, 3 February 2014 09:20)
You suffer the same ignorance most Serbs do on this topic. The court didn't say that no crimes were committed under or by Oric, just that they couldn't prove command responsibility. ITCY isn't responsible for prosecuting individual murders, just war crimes and, for that, they need to prove command responsibility. Basically, they couldn't prove that Oric was sufficiently in command of his troops.
I totally agree Peter.. However, I would like to see Serbia as a state be punished & held to account for being the first to initializie aggression & adopt the barbaric policies of genocide and ethnic cleansing of none-Serbs of former-Yugoslavia, in order to artificially create a greater Serbia
"Greater Serbia" only existed in the minds of those who wanted to use it as an excuse to ethnically cleanse serbs. No serb politician ever mentioned "greater serbia". Secondly no genocide was committed by serbs, if you refer to Srebrenica its not classified as a genocide as only men were killed in Srebrenica and no women. Last but not least Kosovo was not a neighbouring country but a part of Serbia and JNA had no role whatsoever in the bosnian war, the VRS fought and defended their people from bloodthirsty islam fanatics and croat ustasas who wanted to finish off the job that their ancestors started ww2 but failed big time.
Bam Bam you are wrong, Oric was actually sentenced to 2 years for war crimes so he is a convicted war-criminal.
@ Ned Taylor..........how can you say that Naser Oric is decpicable when he was never sentenced for alleged war crimes. Only if Alija had more men like him the Serbs would never have crossed the Drina into Zvornik. When a man is not guilty in a court of law he's not guilty it's that simple. Please understand that 99% of Serbs were found guilty of crimes so sadistic it makes Jasenovac look like a girls choir.
Justice for the victims, regardless of whether they are Bosniaks, Serbs, Albanians or Croats!
(Peter Sudyka, 31 January 2014 13:51)
I totally agree Peter.. However, I would like to see Serbia as a state be punished & held to account for being the first to initializie aggression & adopt the barbaric policies of genocide and ethnic cleansing of none-Serbs of former-Yugoslavia, in order to artificially create a greater Serbia! These brutal campaines adopted by the state of Serbia, against her neighboring country's of Kosova, Croatia, & Bosnia have to be addressed I the same manner as the Nuremberg trials, for their to be lasting peace, something that is yet to happen!
Slobodan Milosevic, was not alone, he did not intialize these policies himself! On the contrary, he had wide (If not total) support of all governmental institutions, along with JNA! And then their was the majority of the civilian population of Serbia which also supported & backed these barbaric policies! Every speech he held before & during these military campaines of aggression show large crowds of Serbians cheering him & the policies he was deploying against the other nationalitys of former-Yugo! Had the majority of Serbians, held these super large gatherings, in the same frequency, & in the same type of frenzy to protest against those barbaric policies, their is no doubt Milosevich would have been brought down!
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/international/europe/12milosevic.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0.
I think there is some confusion about the meaning of the word justice here. It does not mean being found guilty but being subjected to the legal process. If Mladic or Karadzic were acquitted in the Hague, would Serbia extradite them to Bosnia to face another trial there? Would Croatia send Gotovina to Belgrade for another trial? Why, therefore, are people expecting that Oric would be sent to Serbia having already been through the Hague process? He is a despicable individual and an habitual criminal but should not be used as a political football either by Serbia or by Izetbegovic who no doubt is aware of Bosnia's own upcoming election in October and is making an early pitch for votes.
Well, if Serbia insists on the extradition of Oric and the other accused, then they should be prepared to turn over Stanisic, Simatovic and Perisic should Bosnia choose to indict those suspects acquitted by the ICTY.
By the way, I don't suppose that anyone from the media asked Vucic for his thoughts on what Seselj's White Eagles were up to along the Drina in the months leading up to the crimes allegedly committed by Oric? No, we wouldn't want to do that now, would we Serbian media?
"Alija Jr.'s comments are understandable. Oric is the only war criminal turned celebrity Bosnia has. Every state has to rely on someone. "
(Balkan Anthropologist, 31 January 2014 16:21)
So what? Serbia has their 'celebrities' Mladic and Karadzic, but they are currently behind bars. Why do those 'heroes' have to walk free?
P.S: Do they still sell T-shirts with Mladic and Karadzic on it on the street markets in Belgrade?
Justice for the victims, regardless of whether they are Bosniaks, Serbs, Albanians or Croats!
(Peter Sudyka, 31 January 2014 13:51) Like saying eqwal justice for the Jew ,German ,Pole etc in WW2. Most of those rebel Serb villageres were the local armd fascict Serb millitias. Who burned out ethnik cleansed murdered the over welming majority in Drina region Bosniaks with the criminal direct help of the Serbia the instigator of the wars. The region is tired of Serbs and Serbia it goes from one idiodecy to the next one!
Alija Jr.'s comments are understandable. Oric is the only war criminal turned celebrity Bosnia has. Every state has to rely on someone. Still, it's a wonder one of the few war criminals who actually committed the atrocities himself is free and walking the streets of Sarajevo. I can't imagine he's able to get around a lot.
They must have killed themselves.. Lot of talk by the Bosnians about the innocence of the accused, though zero explanation or effort in regards to who may have did the crimes. Very sad indeed. The mentality of the Bosnian politicians is contradictory, they talk about good relations yet they indirectly tell you thats it's ok for Bosnians to kill innocent and that the matter is irrelevant or "over"
I personally believe it is justified. Oric only got two years when he probably should have been given far more. His actions of closing his eyes towards cruel treatment and killings of unarmed Serbs as well as burning down Serbian property would have probably found him getting up to a life sentence if it wasn't a wartime situation. He was the commander and should be held accountable.
They should honestly review the case. All sides had guilty parties and letting anyone go, that had to do with any killings of non-combatents and destruction of civilian property (and Oric is no exception), shows that the ICTY has not fullfilled its purpose of "prosecuting serious crimes committed during the wars in the former Yugoslavia, and trying their perpetrators.".
Justice for the victims, regardless of whether they are Bosniaks, Serbs, Albanians or Croats!
Izetbegović said that "if Serbia wants to improve relations with Bosnia-Herzegovina and join the EU, it should reconsider its behavior towards the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina," news agency Fena reported.
And if Bosnia wants to join the EU, it should finally start to clear its history from those 'defenders', no matter if their name is Oric or Mladic, who are nothing but criminals and murderers.
Perhaps bosnian muslim leader shuld take the acused suspects place and face Serbian court if he wants to protect the acused, he is not inocent as he looks.
I personally believe it is justified. Oric only got two years when he probably should have been given far more. His actions of closing his eyes towards cruel treatment and killings of unarmed Serbs as well as burning down Serbian property would have probably found him getting up to a life sentence if it wasn't a wartime situation. He was the commander and should be held accountable.
They should honestly review the case. All sides had guilty parties and letting anyone go, that had to do with any killings of non-combatents and destruction of civilian property (and Oric is no exception), shows that the ICTY has not fullfilled its purpose of "prosecuting serious crimes committed during the wars in the former Yugoslavia, and trying their perpetrators.".
Justice for the victims, regardless of whether they are Bosniaks, Serbs, Albanians or Croats!
They must have killed themselves.. Lot of talk by the Bosnians about the innocence of the accused, though zero explanation or effort in regards to who may have did the crimes. Very sad indeed. The mentality of the Bosnian politicians is contradictory, they talk about good relations yet they indirectly tell you thats it's ok for Bosnians to kill innocent and that the matter is irrelevant or "over"
Izetbegović said that "if Serbia wants to improve relations with Bosnia-Herzegovina and join the EU, it should reconsider its behavior towards the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina," news agency Fena reported.
And if Bosnia wants to join the EU, it should finally start to clear its history from those 'defenders', no matter if their name is Oric or Mladic, who are nothing but criminals and murderers.
Perhaps bosnian muslim leader shuld take the acused suspects place and face Serbian court if he wants to protect the acused, he is not inocent as he looks.
Alija Jr.'s comments are understandable. Oric is the only war criminal turned celebrity Bosnia has. Every state has to rely on someone. Still, it's a wonder one of the few war criminals who actually committed the atrocities himself is free and walking the streets of Sarajevo. I can't imagine he's able to get around a lot.
Justice for the victims, regardless of whether they are Bosniaks, Serbs, Albanians or Croats!
(Peter Sudyka, 31 January 2014 13:51) Like saying eqwal justice for the Jew ,German ,Pole etc in WW2. Most of those rebel Serb villageres were the local armd fascict Serb millitias. Who burned out ethnik cleansed murdered the over welming majority in Drina region Bosniaks with the criminal direct help of the Serbia the instigator of the wars. The region is tired of Serbs and Serbia it goes from one idiodecy to the next one!
"Alija Jr.'s comments are understandable. Oric is the only war criminal turned celebrity Bosnia has. Every state has to rely on someone. "
(Balkan Anthropologist, 31 January 2014 16:21)
So what? Serbia has their 'celebrities' Mladic and Karadzic, but they are currently behind bars. Why do those 'heroes' have to walk free?
P.S: Do they still sell T-shirts with Mladic and Karadzic on it on the street markets in Belgrade?
Well, if Serbia insists on the extradition of Oric and the other accused, then they should be prepared to turn over Stanisic, Simatovic and Perisic should Bosnia choose to indict those suspects acquitted by the ICTY.
By the way, I don't suppose that anyone from the media asked Vucic for his thoughts on what Seselj's White Eagles were up to along the Drina in the months leading up to the crimes allegedly committed by Oric? No, we wouldn't want to do that now, would we Serbian media?
Do you have any documents whatsoever that prooves that the serbs wanted to exterminate every non-serb from a certain area
-------
you're going in circles. they wanted to eliminate Bosniacs from the Drina valley. Killing them all wasn't necessary to do this. Splitting morbid hairs over whether or not this is actually 'genocide' or just a massive massacre with the intent to effect ethnic cleansing is a bit pointless.
In his examination of Srebrenica-related bodies, the forensic pathologist Ljubisa Simic found that in 77% of cases it was either impossible to determine how they died, or death in combat was strongly indicated.
----------
I'm sure this discredited historical revisionist thinks that maybe they died laughing. or maybe they all killed themselves to make the Serbs look bad.
Sorry. One nobody writing for Serbian blogs doesn't outweigh the mountain of scientific evidence that exists on this topic.
I think there is some confusion about the meaning of the word justice here. It does not mean being found guilty but being subjected to the legal process. If Mladic or Karadzic were acquitted in the Hague, would Serbia extradite them to Bosnia to face another trial there? Would Croatia send Gotovina to Belgrade for another trial? Why, therefore, are people expecting that Oric would be sent to Serbia having already been through the Hague process? He is a despicable individual and an habitual criminal but should not be used as a political football either by Serbia or by Izetbegovic who no doubt is aware of Bosnia's own upcoming election in October and is making an early pitch for votes.
No serb politician ever mentioned "greater serbia".
-------------
uuuuuuh. Seselj?
its not classified as a genocide as only men were killed in Srebrenica and no women.
---------------
It is "classed" as a genocide. The UN definition of genocide is wanting to destroy "in whole or part" a group from an area, not killing every single member of that group.
It's like you're trying to argue that no Jews were murdered during WWII in Germany because "murder" describes a crime under law and it wasn't against the law to kill Jews. Even if you're right, so what?
JNA had no role whatsoever in the bosnian war
-----------
@ Ned Taylor..........how can you say that Naser Oric is decpicable when he was never sentenced for alleged war crimes. Only if Alija had more men like him the Serbs would never have crossed the Drina into Zvornik. When a man is not guilty in a court of law he's not guilty it's that simple. Please understand that 99% of Serbs were found guilty of crimes so sadistic it makes Jasenovac look like a girls choir.
how can you say that Naser Oric is decpicable when he was never sentenced for alleged war crimes. Only if Alija had more men like him the Serbs would never have crossed the Drina into Zvornik. When a man is not guilty in a court of law he's not guilty it's that simple. Please understand that 99% of Serbs were found guilty of crimes so sadistic it makes Jasenovac look like a girls choir.
(Bam Bam, 3 February 2014 09:20)
You suffer the same ignorance most Serbs do on this topic. The court didn't say that no crimes were committed under or by Oric, just that they couldn't prove command responsibility. ITCY isn't responsible for prosecuting individual murders, just war crimes and, for that, they need to prove command responsibility. Basically, they couldn't prove that Oric was sufficiently in command of his troops.
As for Seseljs wishes they were totally irellevant as he had no Power what so ever to accomplish them. Its like me saying I want to be the president of the US. We are all allowed to Dream.
(Daniel@hotmail.com, 3 February 2014 14:34)
You said "no Serbian politician said anything about greater serbia", I have you an example one one and you said "that doesn't count". lol. you're like these Serbs that say, "no Serbs support the EU, Kosovo independence, etc", then when given an example, you say "well, no TRUE Serb".
Justice for the victims, regardless of whether they are Bosniaks, Serbs, Albanians or Croats!
(Peter Sudyka, 31 January 2014 13:51)
I totally agree Peter.. However, I would like to see Serbia as a state be punished & held to account for being the first to initializie aggression & adopt the barbaric policies of genocide and ethnic cleansing of none-Serbs of former-Yugoslavia, in order to artificially create a greater Serbia! These brutal campaines adopted by the state of Serbia, against her neighboring country's of Kosova, Croatia, & Bosnia have to be addressed I the same manner as the Nuremberg trials, for their to be lasting peace, something that is yet to happen!
Slobodan Milosevic, was not alone, he did not intialize these policies himself! On the contrary, he had wide (If not total) support of all governmental institutions, along with JNA! And then their was the majority of the civilian population of Serbia which also supported & backed these barbaric policies! Every speech he held before & during these military campaines of aggression show large crowds of Serbians cheering him & the policies he was deploying against the other nationalitys of former-Yugo! Had the majority of Serbians, held these super large gatherings, in the same frequency, & in the same type of frenzy to protest against those barbaric policies, their is no doubt Milosevich would have been brought down!
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/international/europe/12milosevic.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0.
I realise that many Serbs dislike the ICTY with a passion but progress cannot be made in the region if everyone who is acquitted, from whichever country, is then pursued again by national authorities.
(Ned Taylor, 3 February 2014 18:59)
==============================
How much progress can be made when those acquitals are politically motivated and justice has not been served?
In the case of Oric, he even boasted about his deeds. How do you think Serbs can put that behind and reconcile when criminals like him are laughing all the way out of Hague?
To move on there must be justice. Do you think Serbs got any justice at Hague?
The fact that a well-armed Bosnian Muslim regiment of several thousand men was located in Srebrenica, and retreated without putting up any defense against a Serb attack force of 200, shows that the charges against the lightly armed Dutch peacekeeping contingent of 69 men are ridiculous and misdirected. Why not sue the Bosnian Muslims responsible for the retreat for any deaths that followed in the Srebrenica area? But in the spirit of the memorial, and the narrative and ideology on which it rests,19 the Bosnian Muslims can only be victims, and the UN and tiny Dutch protection force must bear the burden of responsibility (along with the Serbs).
Another Srebrenica memorial myth is that the memorial and political actions associated with it are necessary for real peace. In the words of the EU resolution, "there cannot be real peace without justice," which means getting Mladic into court, and this is essential for "reconciliation" so that "civilians of all ethnicities may overcome the tensions of the past." But how about justice for the thousands of Serbs killed from the UN-protected Srebrenica base between 1992 and July 1995, the 250,000 driven out of Krajina in Operation Storm, and the thousands of Serbs and Roma driven out of Kosovo since the NATO takeover and installation of the KLA in power? NATO's bombing war against Yugoslavia in March-June 1999 was in violation of the UN Charter,
Kosovo independence,
Show me one serb that supports Kosovo independence, only one.
(Daniel, 3 February 2014 18:09)
I could introduce you to 100s. Of the people I know in Belgrade, I can only think of a handful that are not for Kosovo independence. Most people regard this as a black-hole issue that needs to be gotten rid of.
You couldn't find 500 people in Belgrade to come out to protest for Kosovo. When DSS organizes these kinds of protests, they're always busing in people from other cities.
I think you might be a little out of touch from Serbia. You might find people's attitudes a little different from whatever 'Serbia night' you're attending in some dreary pub in the outskirts of whatever American/Canadian/Australian city you happen to live in.
Here is a link that show croat politicians talking about the z4 plan. They say that if the krajina serbs would accept the plan oluja would still have taken place, maybe not in August but for sure in October or November since they never would have accepted the outcast of the plan.
I totally agree Peter.. However, I would like to see Serbia as a state be punished & held to account for being the first to initializie aggression & adopt the barbaric policies of genocide and ethnic cleansing of none-Serbs of former-Yugoslavia, in order to artificially create a greater Serbia
"Greater Serbia" only existed in the minds of those who wanted to use it as an excuse to ethnically cleanse serbs. No serb politician ever mentioned "greater serbia". Secondly no genocide was committed by serbs, if you refer to Srebrenica its not classified as a genocide as only men were killed in Srebrenica and no women. Last but not least Kosovo was not a neighbouring country but a part of Serbia and JNA had no role whatsoever in the bosnian war, the VRS fought and defended their people from bloodthirsty islam fanatics and croat ustasas who wanted to finish off the job that their ancestors started ww2 but failed big time.
Bam Bam you are wrong, Oric was actually sentenced to 2 years for war crimes so he is a convicted war-criminal.
It is "classed" as a genocide. The UN definition of genocide is wanting to destroy "in whole or part" a group from an area, not killing every single member of that group.
Well if thats the case someone committes genocide every day since, due to you even killing one person could be defined as a genocide. After all, even one person is "part of a whole Group" right? But I guess that you dont consider the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Sarajevo and Croatia for instance to be a genocide?d
Do you have any documents whatsoever that prooves that the serbs wanted to exterminate every non-serb from a certain area? Just what I thougth, you dont.In his column, George Monbiot attacked our work on Bosnia and Rwanda as "genocide denial" and "revisionism" (Left and libertarian right cohabit in the weird world of the genocide belittlers, 14 June). According to Monbiot, "DNA screening" has "identified the corpses of 6,595" Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica. But DNA does not establish mode or time of death, and the commission investigating these deaths performs its work behind a veil of confidentiality.
In his examination of Srebrenica-related bodies, the forensic pathologist Ljubisa Simic found that in 77% of cases it was either impossible to determine how they died, or death in combat was strongly indicated.
Monbiot quotes disparagingly from the foreword to The Srebrenica Massacre: "It claims that the 8,000 deaths at Srebrenica are 'an unsupportable exaggeration'."
Monbiot quotes disparagingly from the foreword to The Srebrenica Massacre: "It claims that the 8,000 deaths at Srebrenica are 'an unsupportable exaggeration'." He implies that the quote is attributable to Edward Herman, even though it is a 300-page collection with multiple contributors, and a different gentleman wrote the foreword.
Similarly, Monbiot writes that "the book [sic] claims that the market massacres in Sarajevo were carried out by Bosnian Muslim provocateurs". But multiple contributors cite many sources who make this claim, among whom are UN secretary general Boutros Boutros-Ghali, Lord David Owen, General Michael Rose, and the British joint intelligence committee.
The 8,000 is sustained in part because the follow-up list of missing persons eventually assembled was done by means of an appeal to the Bosnian Muslim population to come forward with names of the missing. Again, by the continuing miracle, this list still approximates 8,000. But it was not collected on any kind of scientific basis, and it has been found that some of the names are of men who died before July 1995, quite a few seem to have voted in the 1996 election, and the number has never been sustained by forensic evidence. As late as 2001 the ICTY had only located some 2,100 bodies in the Srebrenica area, not many identified or shown to have been July 1995 Srebrenica victims.11 Later grave finds have been similarly problematic. A basic problem throughout has been the fact that there was severe fighting between the thousands of Bosnian Muslim 25th regiment soldiers, who left Srebrenica for Bosnian Muslim lines on or shortly before July 11, 1995, and Bosnian Serb forces. Both Bosnian Muslim and Serb officials have estimated that 2,000 or more Muslim soldiers were killed in this retreat; the Bosnian Muslim Chief of the Supreme Command Staff General Enver Hadzihasanovic testified in the trial of Radislav Krstic that he could "claim for certainty that 2,628 members, both soldiers and commanding officers, members of the 28th Division, were killed" during this retreat.12
I realise that many Serbs dislike the ICTY with a passion but progress cannot be made in the region if everyone who is acquitted, from whichever country, is then pursued again by national authorities.
(Ned Taylor, 3 February 2014 18:59)
==============================
How much progress can be made when those acquitals are politically motivated and justice has not been served?
In the case of Oric, he even boasted about his deeds. How do you think Serbs can put that behind and reconcile when criminals like him are laughing all the way out of Hague?
To move on there must be justice. Do you think Serbs got any justice at Hague?
Do you consider the ethnic cleansing of serbs from Sarajevo and Croatia to be a genocide? After all its quite clear that the muslims and croats planned to exterminate "a part of a Group" or "a whole Group" from a certain area isn´t it?
(Daniel, 3 February 2014 18:07)
Sorry, I missed this.
It might fit the definition. I'm not sure though. There's not the same level of systematic killing. Both are definitely ethnic cleansing by intimidation. The situation in Croatia is complicated by the fact that the Serbs rejected Plan Z, a very good plan that gave them 99.9% of what they wanted. They said no and then there was Operation Storm. They also evacuated themselves. They did this for good reason, as is evidenced by the fact that the Croats killed many who were left behind.
Same with Sarajevo. Serbs left of their own accord but, like Croatia, life for them was made impossible to return after the fact. So both a definitely horrendous crimes for which no one has answered for.
Whatever you decided to name any of them is kind of beside the point. It's important to have a victim-based account of everything that happened, without playing with numbers or definitions to further some kind of agenda, as you are trying to do with Srebrenica.
On August 2, negotiations took place in Geneva for Krajina to enter a political settlement with Zagreb. The basis for negotiations in Geneva was a modified version of the Z-4 Plan which would treat the eastern and western part of Krajina equally. On August 2, Krajina Prime Minister Milan Babic publicly declared his acceptance the Z-4 Plan through negotiations with U.S. Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith. Croatia refused to acknowledge the plan's acceptance by Krajina authorities, since Krajina president Mile Martić refused even to receive plan.
Thing is, the only things that are not speculation are:
1) Tudjman accepted the plan
2) Maric ripped it up without reading it
what could have/would have happened is speculation.
Serbs' rejection of Plan Z was an atrocious strategical error on their part.
If the Croats did attack after acceptance of the plan, the story would have been, "war-mongering Croats broke the internationally-brokered peace plan". Instead it's "Serbs were offered 99.9% of what they wanted. Serb leaders in Belgrade and Krajna accepted it, but the military leader in RSK ripped it up without reading it"
And if the serbs indeed intended to exterminate the muslims how come the women were spared? After all they are the ones who give birth right? Let me remind you that in Jasenovac, a real GENOCIDE not even Children not e spared let alone women.
As for Seseljs wishes they were totally irellevant as he had no Power what so ever to accomplish them. Its like me saying I want to be the president of the US. We are all allowed to Dream.
Im not denying the fact that there were horrendous crimes committed by all sides but you fail to answer my question. Do you consider the ethnic cleansing of serbs from Sarajevo and Croatia to be a genocide? After all its quite clear that the muslims and croats planned to exterminate "a part of a Group" or "a whole Group" from a certain area isn´t it?
A nobody you say?
Edward Herman received his Bachelor of Arts from the University of Pennsylvania in 1945 and PhD in 1953 from the University of California, Berkeley.The Srebrenica massacre of "8,000 men and boys" dates back to a Red Cross claim about missing people in July-August 1995, when no real data were available,10 yet that same number is cited today, in a small miracle of coincidence and persistence. In fact, the 8,000 is now taken as possibly an underestimate -- the EU resolution of January 15, 2009 speaks of "more than 8,000" and this is commonplace. It will be recalled that the initial 9-11 estimate of deaths from the New York City Trade Center attack -- 6,886 -- fell subsequently to 2,749, a decline of 60 percent. The figure for Muslim dead in Bosnia fell from some 250,000 in 1992-3 to fewer than 100,000 today, a fall of well over 60 percent. The number allegedly massacred by the Serbs in Kosovo during the 1999 bombing war fell from U.S. official claims of 100,00, 250,000, and as high as 500,000, to an official (and still inflated) figure of 11,000 today, a drop of 90 percent or more. But Srebrenica's number stays the same -- not because it is based on evidence, but because it is so central and useful a political construct, and is repeated by members of the establishment with the assurance of true believers.
Bam Bam: My comments regarding Oric stem from his involvement in drug dealing, trafficking girls for prostitution and other large scale organised criminal activities and do not relate to his Hague trial. My point was that irrespective of his 'ordinary' criminal activities he should not have to face the same charges in Serbia for which he was cleared in the Hague. I realise that many Serbs dislike the ICTY with a passion but progress cannot be made in the region if everyone who is acquitted, from whichever country, is then pursued again by national authorities.
@ Daniel...Bam Bam you are wrong, Oric was actually sentenced to 2 years for war crimes so he is a convicted war-criminal.
Seriously... 2 years jail is not a war crime. People get lengthy sentences for stealing cars. 2 years jail would be considered time served as part of the Oric being in custody while on trial. I can guarantee you that your infamous leader Vojislav Seselj will never step foot on Serbian soil again.
Justice for the victims, regardless of whether they are Bosniaks, Serbs, Albanians or Croats!
(Peter Sudyka, 31 January 2014 13:51) Like saying eqwal justice for the Jew ,German ,Pole etc in WW2. Most of those rebel Serb villageres were the local armd fascict Serb millitias. Who burned out ethnik cleansed murdered the over welming majority in Drina region Bosniaks with the criminal direct help of the Serbia the instigator of the wars. The region is tired of Serbs and Serbia it goes from one idiodecy to the next one!
Well, if Serbia insists on the extradition of Oric and the other accused, then they should be prepared to turn over Stanisic, Simatovic and Perisic should Bosnia choose to indict those suspects acquitted by the ICTY.
By the way, I don't suppose that anyone from the media asked Vucic for his thoughts on what Seselj's White Eagles were up to along the Drina in the months leading up to the crimes allegedly committed by Oric? No, we wouldn't want to do that now, would we Serbian media?
Izetbegović said that "if Serbia wants to improve relations with Bosnia-Herzegovina and join the EU, it should reconsider its behavior towards the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina," news agency Fena reported.
And if Bosnia wants to join the EU, it should finally start to clear its history from those 'defenders', no matter if their name is Oric or Mladic, who are nothing but criminals and murderers.
"Alija Jr.'s comments are understandable. Oric is the only war criminal turned celebrity Bosnia has. Every state has to rely on someone. "
(Balkan Anthropologist, 31 January 2014 16:21)
So what? Serbia has their 'celebrities' Mladic and Karadzic, but they are currently behind bars. Why do those 'heroes' have to walk free?
P.S: Do they still sell T-shirts with Mladic and Karadzic on it on the street markets in Belgrade?
They must have killed themselves.. Lot of talk by the Bosnians about the innocence of the accused, though zero explanation or effort in regards to who may have did the crimes. Very sad indeed. The mentality of the Bosnian politicians is contradictory, they talk about good relations yet they indirectly tell you thats it's ok for Bosnians to kill innocent and that the matter is irrelevant or "over"
Perhaps bosnian muslim leader shuld take the acused suspects place and face Serbian court if he wants to protect the acused, he is not inocent as he looks.
Alija Jr.'s comments are understandable. Oric is the only war criminal turned celebrity Bosnia has. Every state has to rely on someone. Still, it's a wonder one of the few war criminals who actually committed the atrocities himself is free and walking the streets of Sarajevo. I can't imagine he's able to get around a lot.
I personally believe it is justified. Oric only got two years when he probably should have been given far more. His actions of closing his eyes towards cruel treatment and killings of unarmed Serbs as well as burning down Serbian property would have probably found him getting up to a life sentence if it wasn't a wartime situation. He was the commander and should be held accountable.
They should honestly review the case. All sides had guilty parties and letting anyone go, that had to do with any killings of non-combatents and destruction of civilian property (and Oric is no exception), shows that the ICTY has not fullfilled its purpose of "prosecuting serious crimes committed during the wars in the former Yugoslavia, and trying their perpetrators.".
Justice for the victims, regardless of whether they are Bosniaks, Serbs, Albanians or Croats!
I think there is some confusion about the meaning of the word justice here. It does not mean being found guilty but being subjected to the legal process. If Mladic or Karadzic were acquitted in the Hague, would Serbia extradite them to Bosnia to face another trial there? Would Croatia send Gotovina to Belgrade for another trial? Why, therefore, are people expecting that Oric would be sent to Serbia having already been through the Hague process? He is a despicable individual and an habitual criminal but should not be used as a political football either by Serbia or by Izetbegovic who no doubt is aware of Bosnia's own upcoming election in October and is making an early pitch for votes.
@ Ned Taylor..........how can you say that Naser Oric is decpicable when he was never sentenced for alleged war crimes. Only if Alija had more men like him the Serbs would never have crossed the Drina into Zvornik. When a man is not guilty in a court of law he's not guilty it's that simple. Please understand that 99% of Serbs were found guilty of crimes so sadistic it makes Jasenovac look like a girls choir.
I totally agree Peter.. However, I would like to see Serbia as a state be punished & held to account for being the first to initializie aggression & adopt the barbaric policies of genocide and ethnic cleansing of none-Serbs of former-Yugoslavia, in order to artificially create a greater Serbia
"Greater Serbia" only existed in the minds of those who wanted to use it as an excuse to ethnically cleanse serbs. No serb politician ever mentioned "greater serbia". Secondly no genocide was committed by serbs, if you refer to Srebrenica its not classified as a genocide as only men were killed in Srebrenica and no women. Last but not least Kosovo was not a neighbouring country but a part of Serbia and JNA had no role whatsoever in the bosnian war, the VRS fought and defended their people from bloodthirsty islam fanatics and croat ustasas who wanted to finish off the job that their ancestors started ww2 but failed big time.
Bam Bam you are wrong, Oric was actually sentenced to 2 years for war crimes so he is a convicted war-criminal.
It is "classed" as a genocide. The UN definition of genocide is wanting to destroy "in whole or part" a group from an area, not killing every single member of that group.
Well if thats the case someone committes genocide every day since, due to you even killing one person could be defined as a genocide. After all, even one person is "part of a whole Group" right? But I guess that you dont consider the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Sarajevo and Croatia for instance to be a genocide?d
Do you have any documents whatsoever that prooves that the serbs wanted to exterminate every non-serb from a certain area? Just what I thougth, you dont.In his column, George Monbiot attacked our work on Bosnia and Rwanda as "genocide denial" and "revisionism" (Left and libertarian right cohabit in the weird world of the genocide belittlers, 14 June). According to Monbiot, "DNA screening" has "identified the corpses of 6,595" Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica. But DNA does not establish mode or time of death, and the commission investigating these deaths performs its work behind a veil of confidentiality.
In his examination of Srebrenica-related bodies, the forensic pathologist Ljubisa Simic found that in 77% of cases it was either impossible to determine how they died, or death in combat was strongly indicated.
Monbiot quotes disparagingly from the foreword to The Srebrenica Massacre: "It claims that the 8,000 deaths at Srebrenica are 'an unsupportable exaggeration'."
Do you have any documents whatsoever that prooves that the serbs wanted to exterminate every non-serb from a certain area
-------
you're going in circles. they wanted to eliminate Bosniacs from the Drina valley. Killing them all wasn't necessary to do this. Splitting morbid hairs over whether or not this is actually 'genocide' or just a massive massacre with the intent to effect ethnic cleansing is a bit pointless.
In his examination of Srebrenica-related bodies, the forensic pathologist Ljubisa Simic found that in 77% of cases it was either impossible to determine how they died, or death in combat was strongly indicated.
----------
I'm sure this discredited historical revisionist thinks that maybe they died laughing. or maybe they all killed themselves to make the Serbs look bad.
Sorry. One nobody writing for Serbian blogs doesn't outweigh the mountain of scientific evidence that exists on this topic.
Do you consider the ethnic cleansing of serbs from Sarajevo and Croatia to be a genocide? After all its quite clear that the muslims and croats planned to exterminate "a part of a Group" or "a whole Group" from a certain area isn´t it?
(Daniel, 3 February 2014 18:07)
Sorry, I missed this.
It might fit the definition. I'm not sure though. There's not the same level of systematic killing. Both are definitely ethnic cleansing by intimidation. The situation in Croatia is complicated by the fact that the Serbs rejected Plan Z, a very good plan that gave them 99.9% of what they wanted. They said no and then there was Operation Storm. They also evacuated themselves. They did this for good reason, as is evidenced by the fact that the Croats killed many who were left behind.
Same with Sarajevo. Serbs left of their own accord but, like Croatia, life for them was made impossible to return after the fact. So both a definitely horrendous crimes for which no one has answered for.
Whatever you decided to name any of them is kind of beside the point. It's important to have a victim-based account of everything that happened, without playing with numbers or definitions to further some kind of agenda, as you are trying to do with Srebrenica.
Justice for the victims, regardless of whether they are Bosniaks, Serbs, Albanians or Croats!
(Peter Sudyka, 31 January 2014 13:51)
I totally agree Peter.. However, I would like to see Serbia as a state be punished & held to account for being the first to initializie aggression & adopt the barbaric policies of genocide and ethnic cleansing of none-Serbs of former-Yugoslavia, in order to artificially create a greater Serbia! These brutal campaines adopted by the state of Serbia, against her neighboring country's of Kosova, Croatia, & Bosnia have to be addressed I the same manner as the Nuremberg trials, for their to be lasting peace, something that is yet to happen!
Slobodan Milosevic, was not alone, he did not intialize these policies himself! On the contrary, he had wide (If not total) support of all governmental institutions, along with JNA! And then their was the majority of the civilian population of Serbia which also supported & backed these barbaric policies! Every speech he held before & during these military campaines of aggression show large crowds of Serbians cheering him & the policies he was deploying against the other nationalitys of former-Yugo! Had the majority of Serbians, held these super large gatherings, in the same frequency, & in the same type of frenzy to protest against those barbaric policies, their is no doubt Milosevich would have been brought down!
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/international/europe/12milosevic.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0.
No serb politician ever mentioned "greater serbia".
-------------
uuuuuuh. Seselj?
its not classified as a genocide as only men were killed in Srebrenica and no women.
---------------
It is "classed" as a genocide. The UN definition of genocide is wanting to destroy "in whole or part" a group from an area, not killing every single member of that group.
It's like you're trying to argue that no Jews were murdered during WWII in Germany because "murder" describes a crime under law and it wasn't against the law to kill Jews. Even if you're right, so what?
JNA had no role whatsoever in the bosnian war
-----------
Monbiot quotes disparagingly from the foreword to The Srebrenica Massacre: "It claims that the 8,000 deaths at Srebrenica are 'an unsupportable exaggeration'." He implies that the quote is attributable to Edward Herman, even though it is a 300-page collection with multiple contributors, and a different gentleman wrote the foreword.
Similarly, Monbiot writes that "the book [sic] claims that the market massacres in Sarajevo were carried out by Bosnian Muslim provocateurs". But multiple contributors cite many sources who make this claim, among whom are UN secretary general Boutros Boutros-Ghali, Lord David Owen, General Michael Rose, and the British joint intelligence committee.
And if the serbs indeed intended to exterminate the muslims how come the women were spared? After all they are the ones who give birth right? Let me remind you that in Jasenovac, a real GENOCIDE not even Children not e spared let alone women.
The fact that a well-armed Bosnian Muslim regiment of several thousand men was located in Srebrenica, and retreated without putting up any defense against a Serb attack force of 200, shows that the charges against the lightly armed Dutch peacekeeping contingent of 69 men are ridiculous and misdirected. Why not sue the Bosnian Muslims responsible for the retreat for any deaths that followed in the Srebrenica area? But in the spirit of the memorial, and the narrative and ideology on which it rests,19 the Bosnian Muslims can only be victims, and the UN and tiny Dutch protection force must bear the burden of responsibility (along with the Serbs).
Another Srebrenica memorial myth is that the memorial and political actions associated with it are necessary for real peace. In the words of the EU resolution, "there cannot be real peace without justice," which means getting Mladic into court, and this is essential for "reconciliation" so that "civilians of all ethnicities may overcome the tensions of the past." But how about justice for the thousands of Serbs killed from the UN-protected Srebrenica base between 1992 and July 1995, the 250,000 driven out of Krajina in Operation Storm, and the thousands of Serbs and Roma driven out of Kosovo since the NATO takeover and installation of the KLA in power? NATO's bombing war against Yugoslavia in March-June 1999 was in violation of the UN Charter,
As for Seseljs wishes they were totally irellevant as he had no Power what so ever to accomplish them. Its like me saying I want to be the president of the US. We are all allowed to Dream.
As for Seseljs wishes they were totally irellevant as he had no Power what so ever to accomplish them. Its like me saying I want to be the president of the US. We are all allowed to Dream.
(Daniel@hotmail.com, 3 February 2014 14:34)
You said "no Serbian politician said anything about greater serbia", I have you an example one one and you said "that doesn't count". lol. you're like these Serbs that say, "no Serbs support the EU, Kosovo independence, etc", then when given an example, you say "well, no TRUE Serb".
Im not denying the fact that there were horrendous crimes committed by all sides but you fail to answer my question. Do you consider the ethnic cleansing of serbs from Sarajevo and Croatia to be a genocide? After all its quite clear that the muslims and croats planned to exterminate "a part of a Group" or "a whole Group" from a certain area isn´t it?
A nobody you say?
Edward Herman received his Bachelor of Arts from the University of Pennsylvania in 1945 and PhD in 1953 from the University of California, Berkeley.The Srebrenica massacre of "8,000 men and boys" dates back to a Red Cross claim about missing people in July-August 1995, when no real data were available,10 yet that same number is cited today, in a small miracle of coincidence and persistence. In fact, the 8,000 is now taken as possibly an underestimate -- the EU resolution of January 15, 2009 speaks of "more than 8,000" and this is commonplace. It will be recalled that the initial 9-11 estimate of deaths from the New York City Trade Center attack -- 6,886 -- fell subsequently to 2,749, a decline of 60 percent. The figure for Muslim dead in Bosnia fell from some 250,000 in 1992-3 to fewer than 100,000 today, a fall of well over 60 percent. The number allegedly massacred by the Serbs in Kosovo during the 1999 bombing war fell from U.S. official claims of 100,00, 250,000, and as high as 500,000, to an official (and still inflated) figure of 11,000 today, a drop of 90 percent or more. But Srebrenica's number stays the same -- not because it is based on evidence, but because it is so central and useful a political construct, and is repeated by members of the establishment with the assurance of true believers.
@ Daniel...Bam Bam you are wrong, Oric was actually sentenced to 2 years for war crimes so he is a convicted war-criminal.
Seriously... 2 years jail is not a war crime. People get lengthy sentences for stealing cars. 2 years jail would be considered time served as part of the Oric being in custody while on trial. I can guarantee you that your infamous leader Vojislav Seselj will never step foot on Serbian soil again.
Kosovo independence,
Show me one serb that supports Kosovo independence, only one.
(Daniel, 3 February 2014 18:09)
I could introduce you to 100s. Of the people I know in Belgrade, I can only think of a handful that are not for Kosovo independence. Most people regard this as a black-hole issue that needs to be gotten rid of.
You couldn't find 500 people in Belgrade to come out to protest for Kosovo. When DSS organizes these kinds of protests, they're always busing in people from other cities.
I think you might be a little out of touch from Serbia. You might find people's attitudes a little different from whatever 'Serbia night' you're attending in some dreary pub in the outskirts of whatever American/Canadian/Australian city you happen to live in.
Here is a link that show croat politicians talking about the z4 plan. They say that if the krajina serbs would accept the plan oluja would still have taken place, maybe not in August but for sure in October or November since they never would have accepted the outcast of the plan.
Thing is, the only things that are not speculation are:
1) Tudjman accepted the plan
2) Maric ripped it up without reading it
what could have/would have happened is speculation.
Serbs' rejection of Plan Z was an atrocious strategical error on their part.
If the Croats did attack after acceptance of the plan, the story would have been, "war-mongering Croats broke the internationally-brokered peace plan". Instead it's "Serbs were offered 99.9% of what they wanted. Serb leaders in Belgrade and Krajna accepted it, but the military leader in RSK ripped it up without reading it"
how can you say that Naser Oric is decpicable when he was never sentenced for alleged war crimes. Only if Alija had more men like him the Serbs would never have crossed the Drina into Zvornik. When a man is not guilty in a court of law he's not guilty it's that simple. Please understand that 99% of Serbs were found guilty of crimes so sadistic it makes Jasenovac look like a girls choir.
(Bam Bam, 3 February 2014 09:20)
You suffer the same ignorance most Serbs do on this topic. The court didn't say that no crimes were committed under or by Oric, just that they couldn't prove command responsibility. ITCY isn't responsible for prosecuting individual murders, just war crimes and, for that, they need to prove command responsibility. Basically, they couldn't prove that Oric was sufficiently in command of his troops.
The 8,000 is sustained in part because the follow-up list of missing persons eventually assembled was done by means of an appeal to the Bosnian Muslim population to come forward with names of the missing. Again, by the continuing miracle, this list still approximates 8,000. But it was not collected on any kind of scientific basis, and it has been found that some of the names are of men who died before July 1995, quite a few seem to have voted in the 1996 election, and the number has never been sustained by forensic evidence. As late as 2001 the ICTY had only located some 2,100 bodies in the Srebrenica area, not many identified or shown to have been July 1995 Srebrenica victims.11 Later grave finds have been similarly problematic. A basic problem throughout has been the fact that there was severe fighting between the thousands of Bosnian Muslim 25th regiment soldiers, who left Srebrenica for Bosnian Muslim lines on or shortly before July 11, 1995, and Bosnian Serb forces. Both Bosnian Muslim and Serb officials have estimated that 2,000 or more Muslim soldiers were killed in this retreat; the Bosnian Muslim Chief of the Supreme Command Staff General Enver Hadzihasanovic testified in the trial of Radislav Krstic that he could "claim for certainty that 2,628 members, both soldiers and commanding officers, members of the 28th Division, were killed" during this retreat.12
I realise that many Serbs dislike the ICTY with a passion but progress cannot be made in the region if everyone who is acquitted, from whichever country, is then pursued again by national authorities.
(Ned Taylor, 3 February 2014 18:59)
==============================
How much progress can be made when those acquitals are politically motivated and justice has not been served?
In the case of Oric, he even boasted about his deeds. How do you think Serbs can put that behind and reconcile when criminals like him are laughing all the way out of Hague?
To move on there must be justice. Do you think Serbs got any justice at Hague?
I realise that many Serbs dislike the ICTY with a passion but progress cannot be made in the region if everyone who is acquitted, from whichever country, is then pursued again by national authorities.
(Ned Taylor, 3 February 2014 18:59)
==============================
How much progress can be made when those acquitals are politically motivated and justice has not been served?
In the case of Oric, he even boasted about his deeds. How do you think Serbs can put that behind and reconcile when criminals like him are laughing all the way out of Hague?
To move on there must be justice. Do you think Serbs got any justice at Hague?
On August 2, negotiations took place in Geneva for Krajina to enter a political settlement with Zagreb. The basis for negotiations in Geneva was a modified version of the Z-4 Plan which would treat the eastern and western part of Krajina equally. On August 2, Krajina Prime Minister Milan Babic publicly declared his acceptance the Z-4 Plan through negotiations with U.S. Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith. Croatia refused to acknowledge the plan's acceptance by Krajina authorities, since Krajina president Mile Martić refused even to receive plan.
Bam Bam: My comments regarding Oric stem from his involvement in drug dealing, trafficking girls for prostitution and other large scale organised criminal activities and do not relate to his Hague trial. My point was that irrespective of his 'ordinary' criminal activities he should not have to face the same charges in Serbia for which he was cleared in the Hague. I realise that many Serbs dislike the ICTY with a passion but progress cannot be made in the region if everyone who is acquitted, from whichever country, is then pursued again by national authorities.
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