1,000 participants at Pride Parade

As a Serb living abroad (Holland), I am truly ashamed of such a hostile reactions in Belgrade… Belgrade is such a cool, vibrant place – and really should be proud of events like Gay Pride – if for no other reasons, than as a step closer to joining Europe.

Well, took us hundreds of years to get rid of Turks, Germans, Communists – maybe in a following few hundred years we will get rid of gay-hate and figure out that gay is as normal as folk music, mixed grill and Pink TV.

Go Pride!!

Largely attended by foreigners, forced on the Serbs by foreigners and despised by almost all Serbs this "Pride Parade" fiasco should be held every year just to remind Serbia that the EU wants you to give up your sovereignty. GO SERBIA!

LIVE AND LET LIVE.

As you Dex, I live in a country where the rights of all are sacred, no matter their religion, their creed, their sexuality.

I honestly think that conservative Belgraders should take out their anger on criminals instead of peaceful citizens who want to have the same rights as them.

Dex, you celebrate "diversity" from a country--Holland--where Gert Wilders is on trial for daring to exercise his rights of free speech. That is not "very cool and vibrant" . The Dutch are not so tolerant after all!

Belgrade might seem like a cool, vibrant place when you visit it for a few weeks every once in a while.

Unfortunately THIS is the real Serbia.

Hooligans? Are you talking about Clinton who brought real death and destruction on Serbia but will be feted by the spineless Tadic next week? I'm sure she'll weigh in on the situation of "gay rights" in Serbia like the British Ambassador did this week... such paragons of human rights.

Danilo I don't agree that these hooligans represent Belgrade in any way.

They represent uneducated young men too stupid to understand how to channel their energy into something positive.

They will never achieve anything in life so the most they can hope for is to achieve notoriety for violence and smashing up Belgrade.

Now, I am not persuaded of the need for parades on the specific issue. Actually there should be an annual protest against violence and hooliganism. This should represent all victims of hooligans jews, gypsies, gays, free media, the left and centre left, and supporters of human rights.

This violence persuades me that this isn't the fight of homosexuals, it is the fight of society against violence.

The pride parade should be replaced by this type of protest.

Danilo, what happened today, the violence between young hooligans and police, is not the real Serbia. Are you Serbian, do you live in Belgrade - or do you just come to this site to trash anything Serbian that you can? Are you a hater, like the hooligans today in BG? Or are you a democratic individual that accepts all ethnicities in the world? I think you are a hater. Anyway, this is a case of BG youth venting their frustrations at what they perceive as interference from the West - for they were also yelling at the police to go to Kosovo. I do not condone any violence, but I understand it, and, as a person living in the West, but spend a lot of time in BG, will try and change Serbia for the better in my small circle. It's a start, but if all of us that love BG try, we will make a great, and diverse city to live in and visit. As for you haters, what can I say - maybe some counseling?

@bganon.

Maybe they don't represent the Belgrade-bubble, but they DO represent Serbia more that you wish they did.

"poor comment" me all you like.

It doesn't make it untrue.

LOOK at what's happening in the streets! All over 500 people walking one block.

I agree with bagnon, the Gay Pride parades should be replaced by Human Rights parades. Where all minorities - ethnic, religious, sexual orientation, etc., are represented. By having a specific parade, as are these Gay Pride ones, you are only singling a specific minority, and making it a target of resistance by the majority. Holding a Gay Pride parade in Belgrade at this time is just too early, too. There are many important issues that must be addressed for Serbia to move forward, but everything will take time. The West EU/US bombed Serbia just 1 years ago, for God's sake. Does the West expect the Serbian people to now just accept everything Western now, in such a short period? Let's concentrate on improving the Serbian economy, creating jobs, shelter for the needy, improve the judiciary, improve infrastructure, and on and on. I am sure that when the average Serb has a better standard of living, accepting the gay community will be a lot easier.

Danilo those thugs do not represent Serbia in any meaningful way.

As I pointed out the huge majority were men - from between the age group of 14-25. That is not representative by any means, especially when one considers that are not ordinary people of that age, but members of football gangs.

If you are saying that the viewpoint that a gay pride event should not be held is something believed by most Serbians you would be right.

However, the huge majority of Serbians don't agree with smashing up the town, stealing from shops, attacking people without reason. If they agreed with it there would have been many more people from different parts of society who joined the anti gay 'march' to carry out such activities.

This evening all the main news channels are absoluting slating / condemning the 'extremists' or 'hooligans'. I'm sure joe average (not necessarily with an education) is still influenced by this reporting, as they were by Milosevic's RTS.

i think the whole human rights parade is a great idea actually. people need to show their rejection and stance on these fascist opinions and ideas that have been spreading in Serbia for years now. By having a larger protest involving more groups and people it would give more strength to the cause and power to fight of the violent thugs still stuck in their medieval trance.

don't get me wrong there is plenty of positives to be taken from old traditions and conservative ideals, but this is taking things on another level where you are just left with the negatives & this narrow minded approach to life.

people need to realise that you need balance in everything in life. extremes will get us nowhere and have proven in the past that it only causes pain, misery and death.

have love for your own beliefs but show respect to others. simple message really, just hope more people get it.

Whilst I agree with Bganon on almost everything he writes, I don’t agree with an all embracing demonstration. Isn’t the whole point of Pride is about “coming out” and being proud of who you are? This is a part of the population that is often invisible; they don’t feel that they can tell their family, their employer; their neighbour. They are invisible but they are there. Since they are invisible, the rest of the population perseveres in this notion that gays are not part of “us”, the mainstream. They then are able to believe that gays and lesbians belong/come from somewhere else (imported from imperialist decadent west!). Judging by the violence on the streets, and by many of the comments made (including by people who ought to be better leaders), it’s understandable that gay and lesbian people want to remain hidden and remain unable to feel pride in who they are.

I agree that there are clearly areas of common concern and common ambitions when compared to other (persecuted) minorities. However, the distinct issue is that of “invisibility” coupled with the notion that there is a moral position (does the church have a moral objection to the Roma or the black people?!).

Twenty years ago, when public figures in the UK first “came out”, people were surprised. Lots of talk such as “she doesn’t look lesbian” or “he can’t be gay since he is a respectable MP/teacher/businessman”. Now, we see gay and lesbian people are being as ordinary as the rest of us! It’s no big deal. Arguably now, in the UK, we don’t need a gay and lesbian pride march anymore; the invisibility has ended. But Serbia needs to keep on this path and work towards a society where all, even those whose difference isn’t obvious, can be out and proud.

Peace and respect to all!

GRUK

I do live in Belgrade. I've lived here for over a year and a half - long enough to learn that it's a terrible place.

I'm moving soon, so no need for any "if you don't like it, get out" comments.

GRUK I think you misunderstood. Within a larger demonstation on human rights each group can protest their particular issue including the priders - under the wider banner of being against violence.

Do any of us for a minute think that those hooligans would only beat a gypsy or gays / bisexuals? I think the majority of them would think it perfectly normal (once they have grown up) to go home and beat their wives if they 'deserved' it.

Really, this isn't only the fight of the gay community. This is the fight of society against a violent minority.

--LDP leader Čedomir Jovanović said that he had come to the parade as a man who wanted to live in Serbia where differences between people were a way of life which only made us different, not adversaries.

According to him, those who attack the Pride Parade participants today are the least guilty and that society which does not have institutions capable of protecting its citizens is to blame.

“This is not the way to go to Europe,” he concluded.--

yeah! -- thank you cedi, you have not disappointed us. in the us, esp where i live -- you cannot even count the # of politicians that attend the pride parade. some really believe in it, in its goals, others just want lgbt votes. whatever, it is appreciated. and they are each ueber-visible.

but in cedi's case... i really will have to try again to meet and intv him next time we're in blgd. we've tried and failed at least 6 times... maybe 7 will be our lucky #.

bganon -- i totally disagree with you here, and will try to do so in a... frndly way, since i've been closely following yr supportive comments the last few days.

yes, there IS clearly a need to protest r. wing extremism, fascism, however you wish to label it. at the same time, there is an absolute need for the lgbt comm and their supporters to be able to garner some public voice, presence. the 2 are absolutely united and not incompatible.

as i have suggested so many times, why not participate in the Pride parade under an "anti-fascist" banner, contingent -- that would kill 2 birds w/ one stone, so to spk. on the one hand, showing very specific support for the lgbt's -- still a despised and oppressed minority (actually lgbt is made up of many diff indv's and groups but that is not so relevant here) -- and at the same time, making a clear and distinct political/ social message. you (and others) could hoist special banners, or sport t-shirts: marching for democracy; fight fascism... whatever. and you could even add "str8 supporter of gay rights" or some such thing.

as i've explained, this idea of group coalitions is very common here (and certainly in such marches/parades worldwide). here, the strongest crowd applause is always reserved for P-Flag, parents and frnds of lesbians and gays. so that might offer you just one idea.

i do think that part of the responsibility should be on the lgbt comm there, to reach out for allies, both to bring the #s up, and to educate the public. coming out... once you've met 100 or so lgbt people, it is pretty hard to continue some of the ignorant stereotypes as have been printed here often enough.

i am very aware that with a relatively small group, you are much more vulnerable. but with, say, 20,000+ marchers, it is quite a different story.

for a pride parade here, there are usually a few hundred thousand people, which probably includes the viewers. families, etc. but in very tense times, that # may swell to one million. which is an intense # in a fairly small urban space.

ciao!

roberto
frisco

I agree with bagnon, the Gay Pride parades should be replaced by Human Rights parades. Where all minorities - ethnic, religious, sexual orientation, etc., are represented.
(IUPM, 10 October 2010 18:09)

I doubt it very much that you will get head of the Catholic Church in Serbia, Archbishop Hocevar marching under the LGB banner.

After many years living in a country where 3,2 million people join a pride parade that is fully supported by federal government, Governor of state and city major - with top politicians attending to the celebration, I may have become a bit naive, but anyway... peace to you all.

Freedom of speech or freedom to preach?

Anyone?

Danilo, as a foreigner coming to this wounderful coutry for the last 8 years and passin most of time in Bg, I fail to understand how u can say that these few hundreds animals represent Serbia unless u have a very specific reason to do so !!

I'm moving soon, so no need for any "if you don't like it, get out" comments.
(Danilo, 10 October 2010 18:55)
===================

So where are you moving to?

“Danilo, as a foreigner coming to this wounderful coutry for the last 8 years and passin most of time in Bg”

You play always the same melody for years now even if the people are stabbed or wounded during such violent protests. You have to work harder in order to find better reasons on how to justify this kind of problem within Serbian society. Give to Danilo better arguments about this wonderful country and BG in particular so that other foreigners will change their opinions.

“I fail to understand how u can say that these few hundreds animals represent Serbia unless u have a very specific reason to do so !!”

Let me show you a short extract” In downtown Belgrade, Serbian police (MUP) officers clashed with 6,000 protesters rallying against the Belgrade Pride gay parade.”
There are not few hundred but some thousands people among them surely many hooligans, animals or whatever you call them.

There are not few hundred but some thousands people among them surely many hooligans, animals or whatever you call them.
(ROS, 11 October 2010 13:06)

You didn't get my point, this kind of hooliganism is not the particularity of Serbia, we have it everywhere, even in my country, where most of the football derby, now even hockey are ending up with destruction and fight against the police forces.

I can easily comment what I see and experience in this WOUNDERFUL country for the last 8 years and will certainly never stop, whether you like it or not, and will never fail to underline it!!
I do not have to convince anybody but certainly can share my own experience.
Don't forget not long ago Bg was named the liveliest and safest town in Europe, most probably you missed that one.....

I was there that day and 6000 thds seems to be a largely exagarated number which is certainly suiting or covering some people's failure...

I do not now whether you have ever been in Bg, but one thing I can tell you for sure, it is one of the safest city I have been in and I visited not less than 180 main cities worldwild.

How many times, while visiting the US I was told by the concierge not to go to far from the hotel in some cities...
My mother in law used to tell me how scare she was to take the tube after 8 in the Zurich suburb, so check a bit around and you'll find that Serbia has nothing to be ashame of when it comes to violence.
It is a global problem that HAS to be addressed the harshest possible manner by any government, and am glad to read that these animals will end up for 8 years in a cage, the only place they belong to!!

It's completely disingenuous to say stuff like "oh, there's violence like this everywhere".

Wrong.

There IS violence everywhere. And, yes, Belgrade is generally a very safe city. But the variety of violence we saw the other day, that's special to the balkans.

Listen to the videos of them shouting "Ubi ubi ubi, pedero" (or whatever they're saying). The sound they make together, the same grunt, the same tone. This is a kind of group violence and groupthink that I've never seen anywhere.

Seriously. Listen to that chant 3-4 times and try to say "oh, that's everywhere"

http://player.vimeo.com/video/15710887


Now to clarify my remarks about this being Serbia's true colours.

of COURSE I don't mean all Serbs are like this.

But there you have it - 6000 marauding thugs smashed the city. There it is. There you go. It happened. We all saw it. This is Serbia (too).

Largely attended by foreigners, forced on the Serbs by foreigners and despised by almost all Serbs this "Pride Parade" fiasco should be held every year just to remind Serbia that the EU wants you to give up your sovereignty. GO SERBIA!

As a Serb living abroad (Holland), I am truly ashamed of such a hostile reactions in Belgrade… Belgrade is such a cool, vibrant place – and really should be proud of events like Gay Pride – if for no other reasons, than as a step closer to joining Europe.

Well, took us hundreds of years to get rid of Turks, Germans, Communists – maybe in a following few hundred years we will get rid of gay-hate and figure out that gay is as normal as folk music, mixed grill and Pink TV.

Go Pride!!

Belgrade might seem like a cool, vibrant place when you visit it for a few weeks every once in a while.

Unfortunately THIS is the real Serbia.

Hooligans? Are you talking about Clinton who brought real death and destruction on Serbia but will be feted by the spineless Tadic next week? I'm sure she'll weigh in on the situation of "gay rights" in Serbia like the British Ambassador did this week... such paragons of human rights.

"poor comment" me all you like.

It doesn't make it untrue.

LOOK at what's happening in the streets! All over 500 people walking one block.

Dex, you celebrate "diversity" from a country--Holland--where Gert Wilders is on trial for daring to exercise his rights of free speech. That is not "very cool and vibrant" . The Dutch are not so tolerant after all!

Danilo I don't agree that these hooligans represent Belgrade in any way.

They represent uneducated young men too stupid to understand how to channel their energy into something positive.

They will never achieve anything in life so the most they can hope for is to achieve notoriety for violence and smashing up Belgrade.

Now, I am not persuaded of the need for parades on the specific issue. Actually there should be an annual protest against violence and hooliganism. This should represent all victims of hooligans jews, gypsies, gays, free media, the left and centre left, and supporters of human rights.

This violence persuades me that this isn't the fight of homosexuals, it is the fight of society against violence.

The pride parade should be replaced by this type of protest.

@bganon.

Maybe they don't represent the Belgrade-bubble, but they DO represent Serbia more that you wish they did.

LIVE AND LET LIVE.

As you Dex, I live in a country where the rights of all are sacred, no matter their religion, their creed, their sexuality.

I honestly think that conservative Belgraders should take out their anger on criminals instead of peaceful citizens who want to have the same rights as them.

Danilo, what happened today, the violence between young hooligans and police, is not the real Serbia. Are you Serbian, do you live in Belgrade - or do you just come to this site to trash anything Serbian that you can? Are you a hater, like the hooligans today in BG? Or are you a democratic individual that accepts all ethnicities in the world? I think you are a hater. Anyway, this is a case of BG youth venting their frustrations at what they perceive as interference from the West - for they were also yelling at the police to go to Kosovo. I do not condone any violence, but I understand it, and, as a person living in the West, but spend a lot of time in BG, will try and change Serbia for the better in my small circle. It's a start, but if all of us that love BG try, we will make a great, and diverse city to live in and visit. As for you haters, what can I say - maybe some counseling?

I agree with bagnon, the Gay Pride parades should be replaced by Human Rights parades. Where all minorities - ethnic, religious, sexual orientation, etc., are represented. By having a specific parade, as are these Gay Pride ones, you are only singling a specific minority, and making it a target of resistance by the majority. Holding a Gay Pride parade in Belgrade at this time is just too early, too. There are many important issues that must be addressed for Serbia to move forward, but everything will take time. The West EU/US bombed Serbia just 1 years ago, for God's sake. Does the West expect the Serbian people to now just accept everything Western now, in such a short period? Let's concentrate on improving the Serbian economy, creating jobs, shelter for the needy, improve the judiciary, improve infrastructure, and on and on. I am sure that when the average Serb has a better standard of living, accepting the gay community will be a lot easier.

--LDP leader Čedomir Jovanović said that he had come to the parade as a man who wanted to live in Serbia where differences between people were a way of life which only made us different, not adversaries.

According to him, those who attack the Pride Parade participants today are the least guilty and that society which does not have institutions capable of protecting its citizens is to blame.

“This is not the way to go to Europe,” he concluded.--

yeah! -- thank you cedi, you have not disappointed us. in the us, esp where i live -- you cannot even count the # of politicians that attend the pride parade. some really believe in it, in its goals, others just want lgbt votes. whatever, it is appreciated. and they are each ueber-visible.

but in cedi's case... i really will have to try again to meet and intv him next time we're in blgd. we've tried and failed at least 6 times... maybe 7 will be our lucky #.

bganon -- i totally disagree with you here, and will try to do so in a... frndly way, since i've been closely following yr supportive comments the last few days.

yes, there IS clearly a need to protest r. wing extremism, fascism, however you wish to label it. at the same time, there is an absolute need for the lgbt comm and their supporters to be able to garner some public voice, presence. the 2 are absolutely united and not incompatible.

as i have suggested so many times, why not participate in the Pride parade under an "anti-fascist" banner, contingent -- that would kill 2 birds w/ one stone, so to spk. on the one hand, showing very specific support for the lgbt's -- still a despised and oppressed minority (actually lgbt is made up of many diff indv's and groups but that is not so relevant here) -- and at the same time, making a clear and distinct political/ social message. you (and others) could hoist special banners, or sport t-shirts: marching for democracy; fight fascism... whatever. and you could even add "str8 supporter of gay rights" or some such thing.

as i've explained, this idea of group coalitions is very common here (and certainly in such marches/parades worldwide). here, the strongest crowd applause is always reserved for P-Flag, parents and frnds of lesbians and gays. so that might offer you just one idea.

i do think that part of the responsibility should be on the lgbt comm there, to reach out for allies, both to bring the #s up, and to educate the public. coming out... once you've met 100 or so lgbt people, it is pretty hard to continue some of the ignorant stereotypes as have been printed here often enough.

i am very aware that with a relatively small group, you are much more vulnerable. but with, say, 20,000+ marchers, it is quite a different story.

for a pride parade here, there are usually a few hundred thousand people, which probably includes the viewers. families, etc. but in very tense times, that # may swell to one million. which is an intense # in a fairly small urban space.

ciao!

roberto
frisco

Danilo those thugs do not represent Serbia in any meaningful way.

As I pointed out the huge majority were men - from between the age group of 14-25. That is not representative by any means, especially when one considers that are not ordinary people of that age, but members of football gangs.

If you are saying that the viewpoint that a gay pride event should not be held is something believed by most Serbians you would be right.

However, the huge majority of Serbians don't agree with smashing up the town, stealing from shops, attacking people without reason. If they agreed with it there would have been many more people from different parts of society who joined the anti gay 'march' to carry out such activities.

This evening all the main news channels are absoluting slating / condemning the 'extremists' or 'hooligans'. I'm sure joe average (not necessarily with an education) is still influenced by this reporting, as they were by Milosevic's RTS.

i think the whole human rights parade is a great idea actually. people need to show their rejection and stance on these fascist opinions and ideas that have been spreading in Serbia for years now. By having a larger protest involving more groups and people it would give more strength to the cause and power to fight of the violent thugs still stuck in their medieval trance.

don't get me wrong there is plenty of positives to be taken from old traditions and conservative ideals, but this is taking things on another level where you are just left with the negatives & this narrow minded approach to life.

people need to realise that you need balance in everything in life. extremes will get us nowhere and have proven in the past that it only causes pain, misery and death.

have love for your own beliefs but show respect to others. simple message really, just hope more people get it.

I do live in Belgrade. I've lived here for over a year and a half - long enough to learn that it's a terrible place.

I'm moving soon, so no need for any "if you don't like it, get out" comments.

Danilo, as a foreigner coming to this wounderful coutry for the last 8 years and passin most of time in Bg, I fail to understand how u can say that these few hundreds animals represent Serbia unless u have a very specific reason to do so !!

I agree with bagnon, the Gay Pride parades should be replaced by Human Rights parades. Where all minorities - ethnic, religious, sexual orientation, etc., are represented.
(IUPM, 10 October 2010 18:09)

I doubt it very much that you will get head of the Catholic Church in Serbia, Archbishop Hocevar marching under the LGB banner.

Freedom of speech or freedom to preach?

Anyone?

I'm moving soon, so no need for any "if you don't like it, get out" comments.
(Danilo, 10 October 2010 18:55)
===================

So where are you moving to?

Whilst I agree with Bganon on almost everything he writes, I don’t agree with an all embracing demonstration. Isn’t the whole point of Pride is about “coming out” and being proud of who you are? This is a part of the population that is often invisible; they don’t feel that they can tell their family, their employer; their neighbour. They are invisible but they are there. Since they are invisible, the rest of the population perseveres in this notion that gays are not part of “us”, the mainstream. They then are able to believe that gays and lesbians belong/come from somewhere else (imported from imperialist decadent west!). Judging by the violence on the streets, and by many of the comments made (including by people who ought to be better leaders), it’s understandable that gay and lesbian people want to remain hidden and remain unable to feel pride in who they are.

I agree that there are clearly areas of common concern and common ambitions when compared to other (persecuted) minorities. However, the distinct issue is that of “invisibility” coupled with the notion that there is a moral position (does the church have a moral objection to the Roma or the black people?!).

Twenty years ago, when public figures in the UK first “came out”, people were surprised. Lots of talk such as “she doesn’t look lesbian” or “he can’t be gay since he is a respectable MP/teacher/businessman”. Now, we see gay and lesbian people are being as ordinary as the rest of us! It’s no big deal. Arguably now, in the UK, we don’t need a gay and lesbian pride march anymore; the invisibility has ended. But Serbia needs to keep on this path and work towards a society where all, even those whose difference isn’t obvious, can be out and proud.

Peace and respect to all!

GRUK

GRUK I think you misunderstood. Within a larger demonstation on human rights each group can protest their particular issue including the priders - under the wider banner of being against violence.

Do any of us for a minute think that those hooligans would only beat a gypsy or gays / bisexuals? I think the majority of them would think it perfectly normal (once they have grown up) to go home and beat their wives if they 'deserved' it.

Really, this isn't only the fight of the gay community. This is the fight of society against a violent minority.

“Danilo, as a foreigner coming to this wounderful coutry for the last 8 years and passin most of time in Bg”

You play always the same melody for years now even if the people are stabbed or wounded during such violent protests. You have to work harder in order to find better reasons on how to justify this kind of problem within Serbian society. Give to Danilo better arguments about this wonderful country and BG in particular so that other foreigners will change their opinions.

“I fail to understand how u can say that these few hundreds animals represent Serbia unless u have a very specific reason to do so !!”

Let me show you a short extract” In downtown Belgrade, Serbian police (MUP) officers clashed with 6,000 protesters rallying against the Belgrade Pride gay parade.”
There are not few hundred but some thousands people among them surely many hooligans, animals or whatever you call them.

After many years living in a country where 3,2 million people join a pride parade that is fully supported by federal government, Governor of state and city major - with top politicians attending to the celebration, I may have become a bit naive, but anyway... peace to you all.

There are not few hundred but some thousands people among them surely many hooligans, animals or whatever you call them.
(ROS, 11 October 2010 13:06)

You didn't get my point, this kind of hooliganism is not the particularity of Serbia, we have it everywhere, even in my country, where most of the football derby, now even hockey are ending up with destruction and fight against the police forces.

I can easily comment what I see and experience in this WOUNDERFUL country for the last 8 years and will certainly never stop, whether you like it or not, and will never fail to underline it!!
I do not have to convince anybody but certainly can share my own experience.
Don't forget not long ago Bg was named the liveliest and safest town in Europe, most probably you missed that one.....

I was there that day and 6000 thds seems to be a largely exagarated number which is certainly suiting or covering some people's failure...

I do not now whether you have ever been in Bg, but one thing I can tell you for sure, it is one of the safest city I have been in and I visited not less than 180 main cities worldwild.

How many times, while visiting the US I was told by the concierge not to go to far from the hotel in some cities...
My mother in law used to tell me how scare she was to take the tube after 8 in the Zurich suburb, so check a bit around and you'll find that Serbia has nothing to be ashame of when it comes to violence.
It is a global problem that HAS to be addressed the harshest possible manner by any government, and am glad to read that these animals will end up for 8 years in a cage, the only place they belong to!!

It's completely disingenuous to say stuff like "oh, there's violence like this everywhere".

Wrong.

There IS violence everywhere. And, yes, Belgrade is generally a very safe city. But the variety of violence we saw the other day, that's special to the balkans.

Listen to the videos of them shouting "Ubi ubi ubi, pedero" (or whatever they're saying). The sound they make together, the same grunt, the same tone. This is a kind of group violence and groupthink that I've never seen anywhere.

Seriously. Listen to that chant 3-4 times and try to say "oh, that's everywhere"

http://player.vimeo.com/video/15710887


Now to clarify my remarks about this being Serbia's true colours.

of COURSE I don't mean all Serbs are like this.

But there you have it - 6000 marauding thugs smashed the city. There it is. There you go. It happened. We all saw it. This is Serbia (too).