"All textbooks in Montenegrin from 2009"

Hmmm, so how many languages do I now know?

Lets see, Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosniak, Croatian.

Also, English, American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealandish, South African.

So that's 10! Can anyone beat that?

A pathetic attempt to justify a fake ethnicity. No serious, educated person can read this and keep a straight face.

To 'Ian the wise.'

I would love to hear your explanation of the differences between written 'serbian' and 'montenegrin.'

What a joke!

To say there is a Montenegrin language is like saying someone speaks American, rather than English or to say there is a Croatian language its like saying someone speaks Canadian and finally the same applies for the so called Bosnian language, its like saying someone speaks Australian instead of English. Granted there are some language differences in all 3 regions, but then again there is a differences in Canadian, American and Australian English, but in the end its all English, we Canada don't pretend to be speaking Canadian. Where is the Montenegrians now think there is such a thing as Montenegrin, and the Croatians have gone as far as making up dozens of new words just to call it Croatian, they are actually reinventing a language, its like Canada starting to make up words and calling it Canadian, its ridicules.

Get Real, how foolish does this sound to the average educated foreigner who knows a little about these regions.

Njegos turns in his grave yet again. Montenegrins are Serb, so says Njegos.

Montenegrins are Serbs. The only non-Serbs who live in Montenegro are Croats, Albanians, and Roma.

So I think Serbia should sue Montenegro for palgiarism ;)

RE:

Marshall Tito and the Commmunist party propogated teaching false history and creating pseudo-languages in Yugoslavia, thus the root of the so called "Montenegrin" and "Macedonian" and finally "Bosniak" languages.

Yugoslavia was created as the Kingdom of the Serbs , Croats and Slovenes, the offical language was Serbo-Croatian. Other than the minorities such as Hungarians, Albanians, Bulgarians and Romanians who have their own language and identity.

I loved your post ZK.

The thing that bothers me about this is that education in Montenegro is now politically based rather than on the fundamentals of learning. I'm worried that school aged children will suffer because of it. Honestly, although I wasn't for it, I don't mind that Montenegro has a seperate country. Like it or not, this is the trend in eastern europe at the moment.

However, I do not like it when politics tries to cover up the truth. It will be very interesting to see how teachers in Montenegro lecture students about the history and literature of Njegos. Are they just going to make up things?

Jovan R has a very articulate post, but let's put a bigger lens on this. You will notice that German is an official language in Austria, and Switzerland not Austrian or Swiss, which is what it would be in applying Jovan R's logic.

Lastly, I don't think you can compare the closeness of Scandinavians and their languages to the ties of Montenegrins and Serbs.

For example, I was at a new year's party last night. The partygoers were a mixture of people, but most had roots from places in Montenegro such as Berane, Budva, Podgorica. Some were also from Belgrade, Bosnia, and Krajina. Between us we all spoke the same language. Moreover, some of us were related to one another and some were also kumovi. You will not find this dynamic amongst Dutch and Germans nor with scandinavians.

Happy new year to all.

(Jovan R., 31 December 2008 05:01)

from the linguistic point of view comparisons to scandinavia or netherlands (or macedonia and bulgaria) are pointless. as far as i know all serbo-croatian languages are based on just one dialect unlike the scandinavian languages. and german "dialects" are actually so diverse that they are not mutually intelligible - they could and perhaps should be considered different languages.

it is perfectly true that a language is a language also for political and social reasons, but the situation in the former yugoslavia is more than a little bit silly. presently there are wikipedias in serbian, croatian, bosnian AND serbo-croatian for example.

This is good news to hear. Another step away from Serbian influence.

A language is a dialect with its own government and flag. As long as its speakers insist on it, they have a right to call their language whatever they like.

For example: Dutch is a language that is not very different from the Low German dialect (Plattdeutsch) spoken in northern Germany. In fact, Plattdeutsch is much closer to Dutch than it is to standard literary German. What makes Plattdeutsch a German dialect, while Dutch is a language in its own right?

The reason is simple: Dutch is the national language of the Netherlands -- a country that has its own flag and government, and a ministry of education and academy that has developed its own standard on the Dutch language as it is taught in the schools and as it is used in publications in that country.

The status of Dutch as a language (rather than a mere dialect) is the result of a political choice made by the Dutch, and of the historical consequences of that choice.

It is a mistake to think that the status of a language is just a technical matter, that should be left for linguists to determine.

To cite just one other example: three Scandinavian languages -- Norwegian, Danish and Swedish -- have a very high degree of mutual intelligibility. Some might even argue that the three are so close that they could be called variants of the same language. But they are not.

Until 1905 Norway was politically under the rule of neighboring Sweden, while what Norwegians in urban areas spoke and wrote was a regional variant of Danish. The modern Norwegian language, based on a political compromise between the speech of urban Norwegians and the more distinctive Norwegian dialects spoken in the countryside, was only standardized in the first half of the 20th century.

Now that the Kingdom of Norway is an independent country, no reasonable person would deny that Norwegian is in fact a language in its own right. It's not "just a dialect" (of Danish, or Swedish). The Norwegians have every right to make such choices. to use and develop their own standard language, and to call their language whatever they wish to call it.

By the same logic, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, and Montenegrins also have the same fundamental right -- to call themselves, and their respective languages, by whatever name they wish. It is a matter of political choices, and as such theirs to make. They now all have their own independent countries, their own national academies and ministries of education, and no one from the outside can or should be able to deny them the right to use and standardize their own form of their language, and to call it whatever they choose.

If, after choosing their own political and cultural paths (like the Scandinavians), these related nations of the Balkans still understand each other, so much the better.

What Europe surely needs is greater understanding and tolerance, not more pointless debates about what people in neighboring countries can or cannot call themselves.

Yugoslavia was about Balkan Nations being able to become power on their own and being able to stop being minions to foreign powers. The Project has failed and now we have mini-states that have to do what they are told (recognition of independence of Kosovo by Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and Macedonia as a representative example). The approach with language is there to make sure that this process of disintegration is irreversible.

People are more sincere with their "dialects" in the Balkans than with anything else. Croatian Serbs will not be served with bread in Belgrade, because they call it kruv.

The same can be said when one travels to a different "country" in the puzzle known as the Balkans.

It proves how childish people in the Balkans are.

ZK,
I speak those and Albanian too.
Sorry, beat you

My friend identifies himself as an ethnic Serb of Montenegrin nationality and is deeply ashamed and humiliated by the treasonous government in Podgorica. He feels that a part of his country has died. Well done Tito (and Milo). Milo, I hope justice finds you. This is the problem of former communists turned nationalists. They function according to self interest, not national interest or identity.

it´s just like this funny thing about a socalled "kosova" ...it´s all invented to caress the souls of a few mislead fanatics, mostly without really knowing about their own origin, like the K-albanians as well as the socalled Montenegrins... who in fact are ethnically Serbs.

to make it more understandable:

all "Montenegrins" are Serbs, but not all Serbs are "Montenegrins".

let them waste their money the get from "US-aid" for those ridiculous textbooks, they won´t have much of an impact anyway.

Montenegro has always represented summit of vanity in former Yugoslavia. This is now just the culmination of that trait. Small ethnic group which sees as it's main business endless self-glorification...

See Albanians are smart - they are not going to come up with a Kosovar language - they will just keep it Albanian - no matter where they are. They are proud to be Albanian - unlike Montenegrins that are not proud to be Serbs ... do you blame them? All the wars and misery created by them to others and themselves also ...

This is good news to hear. Another step away from Serbian influence.

A language is a dialect with its own government and flag. As long as its speakers insist on it, they have a right to call their language whatever they like.

For example: Dutch is a language that is not very different from the Low German dialect (Plattdeutsch) spoken in northern Germany. In fact, Plattdeutsch is much closer to Dutch than it is to standard literary German. What makes Plattdeutsch a German dialect, while Dutch is a language in its own right?

The reason is simple: Dutch is the national language of the Netherlands -- a country that has its own flag and government, and a ministry of education and academy that has developed its own standard on the Dutch language as it is taught in the schools and as it is used in publications in that country.

The status of Dutch as a language (rather than a mere dialect) is the result of a political choice made by the Dutch, and of the historical consequences of that choice.

It is a mistake to think that the status of a language is just a technical matter, that should be left for linguists to determine.

To cite just one other example: three Scandinavian languages -- Norwegian, Danish and Swedish -- have a very high degree of mutual intelligibility. Some might even argue that the three are so close that they could be called variants of the same language. But they are not.

Until 1905 Norway was politically under the rule of neighboring Sweden, while what Norwegians in urban areas spoke and wrote was a regional variant of Danish. The modern Norwegian language, based on a political compromise between the speech of urban Norwegians and the more distinctive Norwegian dialects spoken in the countryside, was only standardized in the first half of the 20th century.

Now that the Kingdom of Norway is an independent country, no reasonable person would deny that Norwegian is in fact a language in its own right. It's not "just a dialect" (of Danish, or Swedish). The Norwegians have every right to make such choices. to use and develop their own standard language, and to call their language whatever they wish to call it.

By the same logic, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, and Montenegrins also have the same fundamental right -- to call themselves, and their respective languages, by whatever name they wish. It is a matter of political choices, and as such theirs to make. They now all have their own independent countries, their own national academies and ministries of education, and no one from the outside can or should be able to deny them the right to use and standardize their own form of their language, and to call it whatever they choose.

If, after choosing their own political and cultural paths (like the Scandinavians), these related nations of the Balkans still understand each other, so much the better.

What Europe surely needs is greater understanding and tolerance, not more pointless debates about what people in neighboring countries can or cannot call themselves.

Njegos turns in his grave yet again. Montenegrins are Serb, so says Njegos.

A pathetic attempt to justify a fake ethnicity. No serious, educated person can read this and keep a straight face.

What a joke!

To say there is a Montenegrin language is like saying someone speaks American, rather than English or to say there is a Croatian language its like saying someone speaks Canadian and finally the same applies for the so called Bosnian language, its like saying someone speaks Australian instead of English. Granted there are some language differences in all 3 regions, but then again there is a differences in Canadian, American and Australian English, but in the end its all English, we Canada don't pretend to be speaking Canadian. Where is the Montenegrians now think there is such a thing as Montenegrin, and the Croatians have gone as far as making up dozens of new words just to call it Croatian, they are actually reinventing a language, its like Canada starting to make up words and calling it Canadian, its ridicules.

Get Real, how foolish does this sound to the average educated foreigner who knows a little about these regions.

So I think Serbia should sue Montenegro for palgiarism ;)

Montenegrins are Serbs. The only non-Serbs who live in Montenegro are Croats, Albanians, and Roma.

To 'Ian the wise.'

I would love to hear your explanation of the differences between written 'serbian' and 'montenegrin.'

Hmmm, so how many languages do I now know?

Lets see, Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosniak, Croatian.

Also, English, American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealandish, South African.

So that's 10! Can anyone beat that?

RE:

Marshall Tito and the Commmunist party propogated teaching false history and creating pseudo-languages in Yugoslavia, thus the root of the so called "Montenegrin" and "Macedonian" and finally "Bosniak" languages.

Yugoslavia was created as the Kingdom of the Serbs , Croats and Slovenes, the offical language was Serbo-Croatian. Other than the minorities such as Hungarians, Albanians, Bulgarians and Romanians who have their own language and identity.

(Jovan R., 31 December 2008 05:01)

from the linguistic point of view comparisons to scandinavia or netherlands (or macedonia and bulgaria) are pointless. as far as i know all serbo-croatian languages are based on just one dialect unlike the scandinavian languages. and german "dialects" are actually so diverse that they are not mutually intelligible - they could and perhaps should be considered different languages.

it is perfectly true that a language is a language also for political and social reasons, but the situation in the former yugoslavia is more than a little bit silly. presently there are wikipedias in serbian, croatian, bosnian AND serbo-croatian for example.

Yugoslavia was about Balkan Nations being able to become power on their own and being able to stop being minions to foreign powers. The Project has failed and now we have mini-states that have to do what they are told (recognition of independence of Kosovo by Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and Macedonia as a representative example). The approach with language is there to make sure that this process of disintegration is irreversible.

See Albanians are smart - they are not going to come up with a Kosovar language - they will just keep it Albanian - no matter where they are. They are proud to be Albanian - unlike Montenegrins that are not proud to be Serbs ... do you blame them? All the wars and misery created by them to others and themselves also ...

I loved your post ZK.

The thing that bothers me about this is that education in Montenegro is now politically based rather than on the fundamentals of learning. I'm worried that school aged children will suffer because of it. Honestly, although I wasn't for it, I don't mind that Montenegro has a seperate country. Like it or not, this is the trend in eastern europe at the moment.

However, I do not like it when politics tries to cover up the truth. It will be very interesting to see how teachers in Montenegro lecture students about the history and literature of Njegos. Are they just going to make up things?

Jovan R has a very articulate post, but let's put a bigger lens on this. You will notice that German is an official language in Austria, and Switzerland not Austrian or Swiss, which is what it would be in applying Jovan R's logic.

Lastly, I don't think you can compare the closeness of Scandinavians and their languages to the ties of Montenegrins and Serbs.

For example, I was at a new year's party last night. The partygoers were a mixture of people, but most had roots from places in Montenegro such as Berane, Budva, Podgorica. Some were also from Belgrade, Bosnia, and Krajina. Between us we all spoke the same language. Moreover, some of us were related to one another and some were also kumovi. You will not find this dynamic amongst Dutch and Germans nor with scandinavians.

Happy new year to all.

My friend identifies himself as an ethnic Serb of Montenegrin nationality and is deeply ashamed and humiliated by the treasonous government in Podgorica. He feels that a part of his country has died. Well done Tito (and Milo). Milo, I hope justice finds you. This is the problem of former communists turned nationalists. They function according to self interest, not national interest or identity.

People are more sincere with their "dialects" in the Balkans than with anything else. Croatian Serbs will not be served with bread in Belgrade, because they call it kruv.

The same can be said when one travels to a different "country" in the puzzle known as the Balkans.

It proves how childish people in the Balkans are.

ZK,
I speak those and Albanian too.
Sorry, beat you

it´s just like this funny thing about a socalled "kosova" ...it´s all invented to caress the souls of a few mislead fanatics, mostly without really knowing about their own origin, like the K-albanians as well as the socalled Montenegrins... who in fact are ethnically Serbs.

to make it more understandable:

all "Montenegrins" are Serbs, but not all Serbs are "Montenegrins".

let them waste their money the get from "US-aid" for those ridiculous textbooks, they won´t have much of an impact anyway.

Montenegro has always represented summit of vanity in former Yugoslavia. This is now just the culmination of that trait. Small ethnic group which sees as it's main business endless self-glorification...