Vučić quits party, withdraws from politics

Yeah we are all traitors now, welcome to the club.

The only difference is that you guys (Nikolic, but particularly Vucic) were constatly calling others traitors and other insults.

As you sow, so shall you reap. In other words your radical mindset is the problem - because in Serbian political life its only you guys that use these insults.

Lets hope that Nikolic stays true to his promise that his new party will not be using name calling any more.

But I'm convinced that this new party has a future and that both SRS and DSS will suffer as a result.

If Vucic wasn't there I personally would prefer to vote for this party ahead of DSS, but with Vucic in the party DSS is still a better option. Vucic has a lot to do to make up for his behaviour in the last decade or so of his political life.

to bganon:

as far as I know the SRS did not extradite serbian citizens to foreign powers.

if someone violates the highest legal document a state owns..., I call that treason.

and that is not an insult, it´s simply naming a fact.

do you prefer democracy à la "kosova"-style, or what?

'as far as I know the SRS did not extradite serbian citizens to foreign powers.'

Then Jovan why is Toma being called a traitor by those parrots at SRS? And if it matters to you then why aren't you stepping forward to defend him?

Kosovo style democracy, is that a reference to clans. You know clans where there is one ruler at the top and if you contradict him you and your family are labled traitors and things might happen to you?

I see what you mean.

Le Roi est mort, vive le Roi.

The right has gained a moderate traditionalist party who's natural political partners will be the DSS/NS and the SRS. This coalition can span the entire right and provide a considerable challange against the Tadic, Dacic and Canak show.

Congratulations to Vucic for withdrawing from politics. It will give the new party a fair chance to pick up more votes from DSS and even the odd DS voter.

He won't be in retirement for long though. In the blink of an eyelid we will all be watching Nikolic hand over the reigns of the new party to a beaming Vucic.

Hello bganon,

I note your joy in reporting your belief that Nikolic's new outfit will "pick up votes from the DSS" - your chosen enemy No. 1. :)

Have you not considered that the implosion of Serbia's largest political party, SRS, leaves 1.2 million votes up for grabs.

I suspect DSS is likely to gain, not lose, from this process as the reality of SRS being nothing more than Seselj's fan club and main source of funding for his Hague escapade sets in amongst the grass roots.

Willie time will tell. But if Kostunica's lurches to the right haven't worked by now I somehow doubt SRS voters will vote for him now.

No there are those that simply voted for DSS because they didn't want Seselj. Now they have a proper alternative.

Lets wait for the polls and then the next election. I don't quite consider what has happened as serious as an implosion. IMO what we will see is a splitting of the SRS vote into two camps and a third few percent of voters who will become disaffected (basically the uneducated servile, who will be confused and disaffected by the split) and abstain from voting.

Again bganon believes that DSS will suffer from the SRS fall out... Honestly grow up, your sudden praise for Nikolic & Vučić is not surprising. It really shows your hypocrisy.

As Willie said DSS is the largest if not only center-right party in Serbia with NS along side it. The SRS fallout will draw more votes for DSS rest assured. Don't like it? Don't care.

what about the traitors, which betrayed and still betray the so-called "lost generation" of Serbian citizens of their future, Jovan?

Jovan you have to be more clear. When the context is name calling of traitor and you mention when you accuse somebody of treason, it is because that person / party illegally extradicted Milosevic...

What has that to do with anything? I agree with you (that it is against the law), but it has nothing to do with Nikolic and other radicals being verbally abused.

Either you support their right to indulge in this abuse that we saw in parliament recently and what Nikolic has put up with (himself earlier allowing abuse of others to go on) or you are against it.

And we both know it isn't like one man in SRS is for one thing and one man is for another. It about one man using his party to bully, verbally abuse and intimidate his party and anybody else in supporting what he wants. Did Seselj use the party congress to elect Todorovic as in the party statute or did he install him like some kind of tinpot leader of a third world republic.

But we both know who and what Seselj is, but I suppose you knew that when you supported / voted for Kostunica / Seselj at the ballot box?

Willie agree with much of your post. On Seselj / Kostunica I am pretty sure on their relationship, or what Seselj believes it was to have been. Knowing Kostunica's psychological profile and former dealings (with those he is slightly in awe of - Milosevic for example) he would have been the weaker partner in a Kostunica / Seselj relationship.

Actually, I would not put them in the right wing. What right wing also assumes is that they are economically on the right, but the reality is that they are economically on the far left, while the pro-West are on the far right.

Hello bganon,

Indeed, only time will tell.

I think it is quite wrong to consider Serbian politics as a linear left-right paradigm. Are you talking left/right in the sense of liberal/conservative, socialist/capitalist or democracy/dictatorship?

I do not believe there is a right and a left in Serbian politics. There is little more than a narrow choice between different personality cults.

I, for one, would like to see a politically (solid) conservative, free-market orientated and truely democratic party form in Serbia. I suspect I shall wait quite a while before that occurs.

For the past few years, the SRS has campaigned on a simple populist platform, using simple nationalist rhetoric and the symbology of victimhood. I think now is indeed the time that many of those 1.2m SRS 'supporters' will realise that this narrative is tired and has failed Serbia and will now look elsewhere. No doubt half a million will remain true to the 'cause' regardless...

Willie of course you are quite right, not only for Serbia, but for all countries.

There are those scientific barometers which you point out. I'd say that in Serbia's case on the left / right, its those that are only concerned with national issues, and appear uniterested in anything else, that are on the extreme right. So perhaps it fits in most easily with the democracy / dictatorship left / right. This invariably comes with the love of a strong leader, cult of personality etc.

I think that Nikolic has a shot at creating the centre party you are talking about. He won't lead it when it does truly go that direction, somebody else will, but if you listen to what Nikolic is saying carefully (Utisak nedelje) you will see that he wants to tone down the national issues and the usual right wing populism and advocates something like a market economy with a human face.

Also revealing is how decisions are made within SRS as Nikolic shared with us. Its the rule of the divine leader basically. If the goal is a truly democratic party, SRS seem to be furthest away from this. For the life of me I can't understand how any DSS supporter that supports democracy isn't breathing a huge sigh of relief that their man didn't get in. Its patently obvious that Seselj thought Kostunica was under his complete control, more so than Nikolic was. But and this is a big but, I have no faith whatever in the right (or extreme left insomuch as it exists in Serbia) ever changing its mind about anything in Serbia. Sadly most just won't budge from their 'religion'.

All this still doesn't mean DS equals good, far from it. Its just a blessed relief we have them and not SRS / DSS in power. Imagine the whims that Seselj would want people to satisfy, without any regard to the Serbian people, and without any chance of his being thrown out of power (from his jail cell).

Anyway, I think as usual, we probably are in agreement on this. Good luck to you.

Hello bganon,

The left/right paradigm is, in my opinion, indeed a meaningless and defunct indicator worldwide - not just Serbia.

I like your explanation to your useage and think you should leave it there. It doesn't really lend itself into the any of the three former concepts I randomly picked.

However, consider this. The SRS's main election point has been Kosovo. Although they have seen the issue through narrow parameters, it is really a truely international problem that needs to be solved internationally. Serbia cannot resolve it alone that's for sure.

On the other hand, the ZeS parties campained primarily on the EU question. On the face of it an international issue, but the basis of the policy was the idea that the EU is the holy grail to domestic economic recovery and success.

You could thus argue that the DS is the party of the 'right' and the SRS the party of the 'left'. :)

If my sources are correct, Nikolic is taking advice from somebody who has been campaigning behind the scenes for a (true) Conservative party in Serbia for some time.

I'm not sure I agree with your understanding of the Seselj-Kostunica relationship.

We do, however, seem to be in full agreement that the outlook is generally gloomy.

"Then Jovan why is Toma being called a traitor by those parrots at SRS? And if it matters to you then why aren't you stepping forward to defend him?

Kosovo style democracy, is that a reference to clans. You know clans where there is one ruler at the top and if you contradict him you and your family are labled traitors and things might happen to you?

I see what you mean.
(bganon, 16 September 2008 08:25)"

first of all, bganon,

it´s quite easy to understand why they call him a traitor, since it is obvious. he wanted to change the SRS-agenda inspite of the ( still ) head of the party, Mr. Seselj.

he wanted to open the SRS to european integration while remaining a nationally-conservative party.

Seselj is against that.

since Europe needs Serbia within the union much more than Serbia needs the union, stepping back from this guideline, or let´s call it policy, ...means betraying the serbian nation. if you ask me, from the standpoint of the socalled radicals it is a quite logic accusation.

what part of it is it you don´t understand?

so, there you have the reason, why he is called a traitor.

next: why should I step forward to defend him? there are others who are near to him, who are also in the law and they can do that too.

if it is of interest for you, I am not, and I never was affiliated to the SRS.

when I referred to democracy in "Kosovo-style" or let´s rather call it K-albanian style, then I meant not clan structures but rather the ubiquitous corruption in the southern serbian province, at least in the albanian-dominated parts of it. there is a clan-infested criminal regime on duty right now, but that´s something the K-albanians will have to resolve for themselves. nobody can help them in civilizing their own society. and when they manage that, they will have to adjust to european standards, such as respecting the rule of law, international law especially.
but that was not your question, I guess.


so, all in all I would say, that you don´t see at all what I mean.

Yeah we are all traitors now, welcome to the club.

The only difference is that you guys (Nikolic, but particularly Vucic) were constatly calling others traitors and other insults.

As you sow, so shall you reap. In other words your radical mindset is the problem - because in Serbian political life its only you guys that use these insults.

Lets hope that Nikolic stays true to his promise that his new party will not be using name calling any more.

But I'm convinced that this new party has a future and that both SRS and DSS will suffer as a result.

If Vucic wasn't there I personally would prefer to vote for this party ahead of DSS, but with Vucic in the party DSS is still a better option. Vucic has a lot to do to make up for his behaviour in the last decade or so of his political life.

Congratulations to Vucic for withdrawing from politics. It will give the new party a fair chance to pick up more votes from DSS and even the odd DS voter.

He won't be in retirement for long though. In the blink of an eyelid we will all be watching Nikolic hand over the reigns of the new party to a beaming Vucic.

Le Roi est mort, vive le Roi.

The right has gained a moderate traditionalist party who's natural political partners will be the DSS/NS and the SRS. This coalition can span the entire right and provide a considerable challange against the Tadic, Dacic and Canak show.

to bganon:

as far as I know the SRS did not extradite serbian citizens to foreign powers.

if someone violates the highest legal document a state owns..., I call that treason.

and that is not an insult, it´s simply naming a fact.

do you prefer democracy à la "kosova"-style, or what?

Hello bganon,

I note your joy in reporting your belief that Nikolic's new outfit will "pick up votes from the DSS" - your chosen enemy No. 1. :)

Have you not considered that the implosion of Serbia's largest political party, SRS, leaves 1.2 million votes up for grabs.

I suspect DSS is likely to gain, not lose, from this process as the reality of SRS being nothing more than Seselj's fan club and main source of funding for his Hague escapade sets in amongst the grass roots.

Actually, I would not put them in the right wing. What right wing also assumes is that they are economically on the right, but the reality is that they are economically on the far left, while the pro-West are on the far right.

what about the traitors, which betrayed and still betray the so-called "lost generation" of Serbian citizens of their future, Jovan?

Again bganon believes that DSS will suffer from the SRS fall out... Honestly grow up, your sudden praise for Nikolic & Vučić is not surprising. It really shows your hypocrisy.

As Willie said DSS is the largest if not only center-right party in Serbia with NS along side it. The SRS fallout will draw more votes for DSS rest assured. Don't like it? Don't care.

Willie time will tell. But if Kostunica's lurches to the right haven't worked by now I somehow doubt SRS voters will vote for him now.

No there are those that simply voted for DSS because they didn't want Seselj. Now they have a proper alternative.

Lets wait for the polls and then the next election. I don't quite consider what has happened as serious as an implosion. IMO what we will see is a splitting of the SRS vote into two camps and a third few percent of voters who will become disaffected (basically the uneducated servile, who will be confused and disaffected by the split) and abstain from voting.

'as far as I know the SRS did not extradite serbian citizens to foreign powers.'

Then Jovan why is Toma being called a traitor by those parrots at SRS? And if it matters to you then why aren't you stepping forward to defend him?

Kosovo style democracy, is that a reference to clans. You know clans where there is one ruler at the top and if you contradict him you and your family are labled traitors and things might happen to you?

I see what you mean.

Hello bganon,

Indeed, only time will tell.

I think it is quite wrong to consider Serbian politics as a linear left-right paradigm. Are you talking left/right in the sense of liberal/conservative, socialist/capitalist or democracy/dictatorship?

I do not believe there is a right and a left in Serbian politics. There is little more than a narrow choice between different personality cults.

I, for one, would like to see a politically (solid) conservative, free-market orientated and truely democratic party form in Serbia. I suspect I shall wait quite a while before that occurs.

For the past few years, the SRS has campaigned on a simple populist platform, using simple nationalist rhetoric and the symbology of victimhood. I think now is indeed the time that many of those 1.2m SRS 'supporters' will realise that this narrative is tired and has failed Serbia and will now look elsewhere. No doubt half a million will remain true to the 'cause' regardless...

Willie of course you are quite right, not only for Serbia, but for all countries.

There are those scientific barometers which you point out. I'd say that in Serbia's case on the left / right, its those that are only concerned with national issues, and appear uniterested in anything else, that are on the extreme right. So perhaps it fits in most easily with the democracy / dictatorship left / right. This invariably comes with the love of a strong leader, cult of personality etc.

I think that Nikolic has a shot at creating the centre party you are talking about. He won't lead it when it does truly go that direction, somebody else will, but if you listen to what Nikolic is saying carefully (Utisak nedelje) you will see that he wants to tone down the national issues and the usual right wing populism and advocates something like a market economy with a human face.

Also revealing is how decisions are made within SRS as Nikolic shared with us. Its the rule of the divine leader basically. If the goal is a truly democratic party, SRS seem to be furthest away from this. For the life of me I can't understand how any DSS supporter that supports democracy isn't breathing a huge sigh of relief that their man didn't get in. Its patently obvious that Seselj thought Kostunica was under his complete control, more so than Nikolic was. But and this is a big but, I have no faith whatever in the right (or extreme left insomuch as it exists in Serbia) ever changing its mind about anything in Serbia. Sadly most just won't budge from their 'religion'.

All this still doesn't mean DS equals good, far from it. Its just a blessed relief we have them and not SRS / DSS in power. Imagine the whims that Seselj would want people to satisfy, without any regard to the Serbian people, and without any chance of his being thrown out of power (from his jail cell).

Anyway, I think as usual, we probably are in agreement on this. Good luck to you.

Hello bganon,

The left/right paradigm is, in my opinion, indeed a meaningless and defunct indicator worldwide - not just Serbia.

I like your explanation to your useage and think you should leave it there. It doesn't really lend itself into the any of the three former concepts I randomly picked.

However, consider this. The SRS's main election point has been Kosovo. Although they have seen the issue through narrow parameters, it is really a truely international problem that needs to be solved internationally. Serbia cannot resolve it alone that's for sure.

On the other hand, the ZeS parties campained primarily on the EU question. On the face of it an international issue, but the basis of the policy was the idea that the EU is the holy grail to domestic economic recovery and success.

You could thus argue that the DS is the party of the 'right' and the SRS the party of the 'left'. :)

If my sources are correct, Nikolic is taking advice from somebody who has been campaigning behind the scenes for a (true) Conservative party in Serbia for some time.

I'm not sure I agree with your understanding of the Seselj-Kostunica relationship.

We do, however, seem to be in full agreement that the outlook is generally gloomy.

"Then Jovan why is Toma being called a traitor by those parrots at SRS? And if it matters to you then why aren't you stepping forward to defend him?

Kosovo style democracy, is that a reference to clans. You know clans where there is one ruler at the top and if you contradict him you and your family are labled traitors and things might happen to you?

I see what you mean.
(bganon, 16 September 2008 08:25)"

first of all, bganon,

it´s quite easy to understand why they call him a traitor, since it is obvious. he wanted to change the SRS-agenda inspite of the ( still ) head of the party, Mr. Seselj.

he wanted to open the SRS to european integration while remaining a nationally-conservative party.

Seselj is against that.

since Europe needs Serbia within the union much more than Serbia needs the union, stepping back from this guideline, or let´s call it policy, ...means betraying the serbian nation. if you ask me, from the standpoint of the socalled radicals it is a quite logic accusation.

what part of it is it you don´t understand?

so, there you have the reason, why he is called a traitor.

next: why should I step forward to defend him? there are others who are near to him, who are also in the law and they can do that too.

if it is of interest for you, I am not, and I never was affiliated to the SRS.

when I referred to democracy in "Kosovo-style" or let´s rather call it K-albanian style, then I meant not clan structures but rather the ubiquitous corruption in the southern serbian province, at least in the albanian-dominated parts of it. there is a clan-infested criminal regime on duty right now, but that´s something the K-albanians will have to resolve for themselves. nobody can help them in civilizing their own society. and when they manage that, they will have to adjust to european standards, such as respecting the rule of law, international law especially.
but that was not your question, I guess.


so, all in all I would say, that you don´t see at all what I mean.

Jovan you have to be more clear. When the context is name calling of traitor and you mention when you accuse somebody of treason, it is because that person / party illegally extradicted Milosevic...

What has that to do with anything? I agree with you (that it is against the law), but it has nothing to do with Nikolic and other radicals being verbally abused.

Either you support their right to indulge in this abuse that we saw in parliament recently and what Nikolic has put up with (himself earlier allowing abuse of others to go on) or you are against it.

And we both know it isn't like one man in SRS is for one thing and one man is for another. It about one man using his party to bully, verbally abuse and intimidate his party and anybody else in supporting what he wants. Did Seselj use the party congress to elect Todorovic as in the party statute or did he install him like some kind of tinpot leader of a third world republic.

But we both know who and what Seselj is, but I suppose you knew that when you supported / voted for Kostunica / Seselj at the ballot box?

Willie agree with much of your post. On Seselj / Kostunica I am pretty sure on their relationship, or what Seselj believes it was to have been. Knowing Kostunica's psychological profile and former dealings (with those he is slightly in awe of - Milosevic for example) he would have been the weaker partner in a Kostunica / Seselj relationship.