Serbia's draft resolution on Kosovo finalized

Such a waste of time for Serbia trying to convince the int'l community with cheap argumentation like this one above. Kosova is already moving forward at a much faster pace than Serbia. Will Kosova soon become independent or not, is not a question anymore. It is pretty obvious and clear for those who accept the reality, and learn from their mistakes by never repeating them again!

To Andrew

Any informed American would know that Albanians are the most pro-American nation in Europe. All the other stuff you mentioned is Serbian propaganda. I will send you some postcards they were selling in Belgrade the day after 9-11, celebrating the attacks. Get informed and try again because you make yourself look extremely naive.

Dear Blag,

Thank you for your comment. I have no hard feelings towards you whatsoever. I actually believe you contribute a lot in livening up the discussion and clearly have done a lot of research for the problem for both sides of the conflict. My and your aspirations for lasting peace in Ballkans are not very much different. We may disagree with the method which we both want that achieved, but in the end we both want the best for the Serbs of Kosmet.

If Albanians had chosen to stay within Serbia, there wouldn't be need for all of this discussion and my anxiety and my childrens fear would be a lot less. However, any one with a commun sense in politics and current events, has to realize that train has left and no matter how much you and I can speculate, that train is not returning back to the same station. Yes, the proces can be stalled by Belgrade for some times, but for how long. I strongly believe that we Serbs will be able to feel Kosmet ours only if we have enough Serbs living in these lands. If there are no Serbs left, than Kosmet indeed for us becomes nothing more than a myth. Who will Belgrade defend in 20 years if no one is left to be defended. I am certainly not for the Albanian version of independence. I am for the type of independence that would internationally guarante and protect Serbs and other minorities in Kosmet. Proposal rejections, economic blockades, separations, will have as much negative effects for us as for Albanians. I agree with you KlA began as a terrorist organization and still some elements in it haven't changed, and oftenly some of my Serbian brothers feel akward to negociate with them, it's totally understandable, but we have to negociate with someone. That is the only way there may be international protection. Even if Kosmet remained within Serbia, no one will be able to stop the immigration of Serbs into other parts of Serbia. The fact is that as much as Serbs are leaving Kosmet for fear of violence, they are also leaving because of the horrible economical situation Kosmet finds itself in.

Only foreign investment, international guarante of the security, and Serbia's direct conection with those communities, will help alter to some point the Kosmet Serb's imiigration to other places.

Thank you for your kind words,

Boris,

Serbia: Nothing for Kosovo
Serbia: Autonomy
Serbia: Independence within Serbia (Draskovic)
Serbia: More than autonomy less than independence
Serbia: Essential autonomy

So know they do not even want to give more than autonomy less then independence.


Too late. Besides according to Serbia new constitution considered by ICG as “democracy backwards” the status of a province can be revoked ( you tricked the Albanians once but won`t be able to do it twice). The current constitution of Serbia does not allow essential autonomy either, so this plan is not even worth the papers it is written on.
Kostunica, Draskovic and Tadic, please save Serbs money and do not pay interpreters thousands of euros to translate the plan because the plan will fail.

This is a confusing issue, but considering the rumors toady, and let me stress “Rumors” are the US going to change the leadership direction they need for Kosovo.

Ceku or rather LDK have insinuated to the UN/NATO that Thaci PDK organized the bus transportation for the contingent of protestors from Macedonia.

Now another rumor has arisen that Ceku gave to instruction to certain people within KPS to rubber bullet Arbin K, with the intent to get him out of the game, in short kill him, but in a way that would look innocent. Did the rubber miss, and do we have one or both of the dead as collateral damage that should not have been?

The plot thickens, as a report came out that one KPS officer was going to shoot Albin K while tackling the movements HQ, and this was thwarted by one of AK members.

What is this government doing? Well it looks like some are trying to create civil War and some are protecting Business. Neither seem to care about the “will of the people, or the people for that matter.

There are more rumors, but I am not going in this dark path. Cant the lessons learned clearly show that a element of compassion and unity is required, but most of all remove the ugly figures in Government that are leaching and stealing.

The people are blind, headless chickens with a two headed vulture ripping at dreams.

Boris:

Basically, I propose that intn'l legalities be respected & that what works for K must work for Bosnia. I also propose that K is not economically viable without S's accomodation & that the US won't run the risk of upsetting the world order. I say that no major Bush official has spoken on the K issue (other than Clinton State Dept holdovers) and that America has handed off the ball to the Germans (a sign of weakness). based on the above... I predict S will not sign (as they have said) and that this is a logical strategy.

None of this is "my thinking"... one can find this commentary in any serious american newspaper and it's common sense for anyone who thinks it thru. I simply point out what is taking place slowly and surely right in front of everyone's eyes.. but that the newspaper haven't yet realized. You however find it offending that I point out these "inconvenient truths" as if my commentary (or yours) will somehow influence BG or Pristina? I highly doubt it.

This forum exists for intellectual exchange and that thru that we may recognize the humanity in the other guy. It doesn't mean we should not present the strongest case we can. For instance, I disagree with things Kreshnik writes, but I have stated 3x in this public forum that his historical writings have opened my eyes to things that I never knew or considered and find plausible. In fact, I consider myself closer to him in spirit than some Serbs on this site b/c he seems fair & intellectually oriented. Some Serbs will think me insane... But I really don't care.

Next, I don't "contantly bring up post-99 crimes against Serbs & their churches." You confuse me with someone else. My interest centers on Intn'l Relations/ Intn'l Economics (not who killed who... or burned down a church). If someone kills someone or burns down a church/ mosque, put him in jail and move on. I think most normal people agree.

I've said numerous times in this public forum that what Serbs did to Albanians is an inexcusable crime. As a Serb I am personally ashamed of it. Guilty Serbs should go straight to jail via an impartial court in a fair trial (but, not a kangaroo court using show trials). In fact, I understand the Albanian desire to be free of BG (I might feel the same if I were on the other side). I even understand why the post-99 crimes took place (though I don't support it). All this is understandable.

I'll even go farther. I challenge every Serb on this site to voice these same words to our Albanian colleagues (without requiring that they reciprocate). These crimes are unfortunate facts and we Serbs need to acknowledge them. In fact it is necessary to do this in order to maintain one's own personal integrity as a human being (and I value that above the physical Kosovo). Albanians are not devils. They are human beings who want the best for themselves and their kids (just like you and me). They are overwhelmingly good people with a few bad apples among them (just like anywhere else in the world).

That said.... lets get on to the INTELLECTUAL matter at hand:

Yes, one can't assimilate those who don't want it. But it doesn't mean one should just "bend over" and "appease" an out-of-control superpower. 12.3% of S is being taken away by force (in absence of a legal mechanism) and you say "where do I sign?" Pls don't go into the legal profession, you'll fail miserably. In fact it has never happened in history that one consentially sign away one's own territory. I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I did what you propose. At the very least... S could easily ask & receive "compensation."

BG wants to see a legal mechanism b/c it has an interntionally gauranteed contract from 1919 that is signed by the American President Woodrow Wilson & the League of Nations. That contract says the direct opposite of what is now proposed. What do you propose BG do with the "1919 Contract?" And what should it do with this "New Contract" intended to replace the "1919 Contract" if "Any Contract" can be replaced at anytime by anyone who happens to have the BIGGER PENIS?

Does the interntionally recognized and gauranteed concept of Sovreignty exist or does it not? Does it exist for some and not for others? If it doesn't, can you show me an "a priori internationally recognized legal platform by which we shall suspend national sovreignties? Or does the biggest penis simply do what it wants?

This is the issue. A VERY SERIOUS issue. It has been debated for 7 yrs by very powerful men from very powerful countries. It's determination will influence future events. If it were not serious... K would already be indep and no one would think twice about it.

I am interested in these issues & not emotional thinking. Ad I can gaurantee that in the UNSC there will be no emotion, but cold hard Politics, Power, and Law.

It is quite obvious that they want BG to sign the proposal in order to provide legal cover (essentially telling you to bend over so that they can consentially rape you). Don't be naïve.

Finally, you are on illogical footing when you say that partition of K will cause others to do the same (but not the partition of S). This is a one-way street. Let me ask you, why do you not offer the same rights to RS? Same situation: their demographic is 95% and they do not want to be assimilated. What do you tel them?

Perhaps B92 should split these forums into different groups so that different people can discuss their own interests (instead of grouping all of us together)?

Yes, thanks for bringing up the ICG..You might as well introduce some quotes from the Christian Science Monitor, and the League of Prizren while you're on a roll..

These are necessary documents required for the Vienna talks.

So you'll need to understand that's it's simply just sequence of events with required steps that are being created now...

If the Serbian taxpayer has chosen leaders to do this for them.....So be it, but stop talking to Tadic, Kostunica or Draskovic through your posts..I don't think they can here you..

We shall see how far the US can incorporate the obligation on territorial integrity as set out in 1244. Lets all give these talks a chance but equally the principled Serbian stance remains. As it stands plan Athisarri is lacking credibilty with regards the UN security council and it is hghly unlikely to muster 5 affirmatives let alone the required 9 - and that is without the veto!

Without the obligation to respect international law Russia has put forth it's stance - China said it will go the same way so there is alot of talking that will have to happen at some point or other!

As an American i wouldn't feel safe giving independence to another Islamic state in the Balkans. We did in Bosnia and after Sept. 11 many of the terrorists had ties to Bosnian government. Not to mention Al Queida very MUCH supports Kosovo's independence. If our own sworn enemies want it to happen, there must be something good in it for them. Which only means there is something BAD in it for us down the line. I read global news all the time and it seems whenever there is a story about sex slaves or drug trafficing Albanians are always involved or behind the operations. Today in the US an 18 year old Bosnian killed 5 people at random in a Utah mall. Men, Women & Children... Bin Laden must be proud for he has accomplished his goal. I will write to my local congressman stating that he does not have my support in backing the independence of another terrorist mafia run state in Europe (ie: Kosovo).

May the victims in Utah rest in peace, and my prayers go out to their families.

Andrew,

As a Serbian-American, while I appreciate your support in the Kosovo issue, you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Yes, Kosovo has its problems with corruption and crimes, but by Western Standards, Serbia is only slightly better off. Nothing is Black or White in the Balkans, its all shades of gray.

The Muslims of Kosovo (and especially Bosnia) are rather secular in outlook. Yes, Bin Laden would love to turn them into radicals, and by taking your stance, you would actually be encouraging them to do so (However, considering the Bosniak love of good pivo and rakija I do not see them joining the Taliban anytime soon). The Al Qaeda links need to be rooted out and exposed, and clearly they have been involved in what happened in the Balkans (mostly for fund raising purposes). Clearly, there are some dangers, 6000 foreign fighters given Bosnian citizenship for example. However, the people of Albania and Bosnia look towards the West much more and not the Middle East for support and guidance.

Blag, absolutely well written statement of your feelings towards the Albanians and those that post here. I couldn't have said it better myself.

As I've said many many times, just because I love Serbia, does not mean I hate Albanians. Its very unfortunate that I feel the need to make apologies in every post I make rather then dealing with the issues at hand. However, at this point its important to emphasize that aspect of the discussions and acknowledge the suffering the Albanians endured. Maybe if we were able to work towards true reconciliation we could have a truly rational discussion on these very important topics.

Now regardless of the outcome of the Kosovar status, we Serbs must do our best to create conditions in Kosovo that promote a continued Serbian presence. The one thing that's easy for those of us in the Diaspora to do is to buy summer homes in Kosovo in those areas in which we hold most sacred. We must build up religious tourism if we want our churches to survive. We must change the view of the Albanians on the ground from one of seeing our churches and monuments as personal liabilities to that of an economic necessity.

Serbia: Nothing for Kosovo
Serbia: Autonomy
Serbia: Independence within Serbia (Draskovic)
Serbia: More than autonomy less than independence
Serbia: Essential autonomy

So know they do not even want to give more than autonomy less then independence.


Too late. Besides according to Serbia new constitution considered by ICG as “democracy backwards” the status of a province can be revoked ( you tricked the Albanians once but won`t be able to do it twice). The current constitution of Serbia does not allow essential autonomy either, so this plan is not even worth the papers it is written on.
Kostunica, Draskovic and Tadic, please save Serbs money and do not pay interpreters thousands of euros to translate the plan because the plan will fail.

This is a confusing issue, but considering the rumors toady, and let me stress “Rumors” are the US going to change the leadership direction they need for Kosovo.

Ceku or rather LDK have insinuated to the UN/NATO that Thaci PDK organized the bus transportation for the contingent of protestors from Macedonia.

Now another rumor has arisen that Ceku gave to instruction to certain people within KPS to rubber bullet Arbin K, with the intent to get him out of the game, in short kill him, but in a way that would look innocent. Did the rubber miss, and do we have one or both of the dead as collateral damage that should not have been?

The plot thickens, as a report came out that one KPS officer was going to shoot Albin K while tackling the movements HQ, and this was thwarted by one of AK members.

What is this government doing? Well it looks like some are trying to create civil War and some are protecting Business. Neither seem to care about the “will of the people, or the people for that matter.

There are more rumors, but I am not going in this dark path. Cant the lessons learned clearly show that a element of compassion and unity is required, but most of all remove the ugly figures in Government that are leaching and stealing.

The people are blind, headless chickens with a two headed vulture ripping at dreams.

Boris:

Basically, I propose that intn'l legalities be respected & that what works for K must work for Bosnia. I also propose that K is not economically viable without S's accomodation & that the US won't run the risk of upsetting the world order. I say that no major Bush official has spoken on the K issue (other than Clinton State Dept holdovers) and that America has handed off the ball to the Germans (a sign of weakness). based on the above... I predict S will not sign (as they have said) and that this is a logical strategy.

None of this is "my thinking"... one can find this commentary in any serious american newspaper and it's common sense for anyone who thinks it thru. I simply point out what is taking place slowly and surely right in front of everyone's eyes.. but that the newspaper haven't yet realized. You however find it offending that I point out these "inconvenient truths" as if my commentary (or yours) will somehow influence BG or Pristina? I highly doubt it.

This forum exists for intellectual exchange and that thru that we may recognize the humanity in the other guy. It doesn't mean we should not present the strongest case we can. For instance, I disagree with things Kreshnik writes, but I have stated 3x in this public forum that his historical writings have opened my eyes to things that I never knew or considered and find plausible. In fact, I consider myself closer to him in spirit than some Serbs on this site b/c he seems fair & intellectually oriented. Some Serbs will think me insane... But I really don't care.

Next, I don't "contantly bring up post-99 crimes against Serbs & their churches." You confuse me with someone else. My interest centers on Intn'l Relations/ Intn'l Economics (not who killed who... or burned down a church). If someone kills someone or burns down a church/ mosque, put him in jail and move on. I think most normal people agree.

I've said numerous times in this public forum that what Serbs did to Albanians is an inexcusable crime. As a Serb I am personally ashamed of it. Guilty Serbs should go straight to jail via an impartial court in a fair trial (but, not a kangaroo court using show trials). In fact, I understand the Albanian desire to be free of BG (I might feel the same if I were on the other side). I even understand why the post-99 crimes took place (though I don't support it). All this is understandable.

I'll even go farther. I challenge every Serb on this site to voice these same words to our Albanian colleagues (without requiring that they reciprocate). These crimes are unfortunate facts and we Serbs need to acknowledge them. In fact it is necessary to do this in order to maintain one's own personal integrity as a human being (and I value that above the physical Kosovo). Albanians are not devils. They are human beings who want the best for themselves and their kids (just like you and me). They are overwhelmingly good people with a few bad apples among them (just like anywhere else in the world).

That said.... lets get on to the INTELLECTUAL matter at hand:

Yes, one can't assimilate those who don't want it. But it doesn't mean one should just "bend over" and "appease" an out-of-control superpower. 12.3% of S is being taken away by force (in absence of a legal mechanism) and you say "where do I sign?" Pls don't go into the legal profession, you'll fail miserably. In fact it has never happened in history that one consentially sign away one's own territory. I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I did what you propose. At the very least... S could easily ask & receive "compensation."

BG wants to see a legal mechanism b/c it has an interntionally gauranteed contract from 1919 that is signed by the American President Woodrow Wilson & the League of Nations. That contract says the direct opposite of what is now proposed. What do you propose BG do with the "1919 Contract?" And what should it do with this "New Contract" intended to replace the "1919 Contract" if "Any Contract" can be replaced at anytime by anyone who happens to have the BIGGER PENIS?

Does the interntionally recognized and gauranteed concept of Sovreignty exist or does it not? Does it exist for some and not for others? If it doesn't, can you show me an "a priori internationally recognized legal platform by which we shall suspend national sovreignties? Or does the biggest penis simply do what it wants?

This is the issue. A VERY SERIOUS issue. It has been debated for 7 yrs by very powerful men from very powerful countries. It's determination will influence future events. If it were not serious... K would already be indep and no one would think twice about it.

I am interested in these issues & not emotional thinking. Ad I can gaurantee that in the UNSC there will be no emotion, but cold hard Politics, Power, and Law.

It is quite obvious that they want BG to sign the proposal in order to provide legal cover (essentially telling you to bend over so that they can consentially rape you). Don't be naïve.

Finally, you are on illogical footing when you say that partition of K will cause others to do the same (but not the partition of S). This is a one-way street. Let me ask you, why do you not offer the same rights to RS? Same situation: their demographic is 95% and they do not want to be assimilated. What do you tel them?

Perhaps B92 should split these forums into different groups so that different people can discuss their own interests (instead of grouping all of us together)?

Yes, thanks for bringing up the ICG..You might as well introduce some quotes from the Christian Science Monitor, and the League of Prizren while you're on a roll..

These are necessary documents required for the Vienna talks.

So you'll need to understand that's it's simply just sequence of events with required steps that are being created now...

If the Serbian taxpayer has chosen leaders to do this for them.....So be it, but stop talking to Tadic, Kostunica or Draskovic through your posts..I don't think they can here you..

We shall see how far the US can incorporate the obligation on territorial integrity as set out in 1244. Lets all give these talks a chance but equally the principled Serbian stance remains. As it stands plan Athisarri is lacking credibilty with regards the UN security council and it is hghly unlikely to muster 5 affirmatives let alone the required 9 - and that is without the veto!

Without the obligation to respect international law Russia has put forth it's stance - China said it will go the same way so there is alot of talking that will have to happen at some point or other!

As an American i wouldn't feel safe giving independence to another Islamic state in the Balkans. We did in Bosnia and after Sept. 11 many of the terrorists had ties to Bosnian government. Not to mention Al Queida very MUCH supports Kosovo's independence. If our own sworn enemies want it to happen, there must be something good in it for them. Which only means there is something BAD in it for us down the line. I read global news all the time and it seems whenever there is a story about sex slaves or drug trafficing Albanians are always involved or behind the operations. Today in the US an 18 year old Bosnian killed 5 people at random in a Utah mall. Men, Women & Children... Bin Laden must be proud for he has accomplished his goal. I will write to my local congressman stating that he does not have my support in backing the independence of another terrorist mafia run state in Europe (ie: Kosovo).

May the victims in Utah rest in peace, and my prayers go out to their families.

Such a waste of time for Serbia trying to convince the int'l community with cheap argumentation like this one above. Kosova is already moving forward at a much faster pace than Serbia. Will Kosova soon become independent or not, is not a question anymore. It is pretty obvious and clear for those who accept the reality, and learn from their mistakes by never repeating them again!

To Andrew

Any informed American would know that Albanians are the most pro-American nation in Europe. All the other stuff you mentioned is Serbian propaganda. I will send you some postcards they were selling in Belgrade the day after 9-11, celebrating the attacks. Get informed and try again because you make yourself look extremely naive.

Andrew,

As a Serbian-American, while I appreciate your support in the Kosovo issue, you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Yes, Kosovo has its problems with corruption and crimes, but by Western Standards, Serbia is only slightly better off. Nothing is Black or White in the Balkans, its all shades of gray.

The Muslims of Kosovo (and especially Bosnia) are rather secular in outlook. Yes, Bin Laden would love to turn them into radicals, and by taking your stance, you would actually be encouraging them to do so (However, considering the Bosniak love of good pivo and rakija I do not see them joining the Taliban anytime soon). The Al Qaeda links need to be rooted out and exposed, and clearly they have been involved in what happened in the Balkans (mostly for fund raising purposes). Clearly, there are some dangers, 6000 foreign fighters given Bosnian citizenship for example. However, the people of Albania and Bosnia look towards the West much more and not the Middle East for support and guidance.

Blag, absolutely well written statement of your feelings towards the Albanians and those that post here. I couldn't have said it better myself.

As I've said many many times, just because I love Serbia, does not mean I hate Albanians. Its very unfortunate that I feel the need to make apologies in every post I make rather then dealing with the issues at hand. However, at this point its important to emphasize that aspect of the discussions and acknowledge the suffering the Albanians endured. Maybe if we were able to work towards true reconciliation we could have a truly rational discussion on these very important topics.

Now regardless of the outcome of the Kosovar status, we Serbs must do our best to create conditions in Kosovo that promote a continued Serbian presence. The one thing that's easy for those of us in the Diaspora to do is to buy summer homes in Kosovo in those areas in which we hold most sacred. We must build up religious tourism if we want our churches to survive. We must change the view of the Albanians on the ground from one of seeing our churches and monuments as personal liabilities to that of an economic necessity.

Dear Blag,

Thank you for your comment. I have no hard feelings towards you whatsoever. I actually believe you contribute a lot in livening up the discussion and clearly have done a lot of research for the problem for both sides of the conflict. My and your aspirations for lasting peace in Ballkans are not very much different. We may disagree with the method which we both want that achieved, but in the end we both want the best for the Serbs of Kosmet.

If Albanians had chosen to stay within Serbia, there wouldn't be need for all of this discussion and my anxiety and my childrens fear would be a lot less. However, any one with a commun sense in politics and current events, has to realize that train has left and no matter how much you and I can speculate, that train is not returning back to the same station. Yes, the proces can be stalled by Belgrade for some times, but for how long. I strongly believe that we Serbs will be able to feel Kosmet ours only if we have enough Serbs living in these lands. If there are no Serbs left, than Kosmet indeed for us becomes nothing more than a myth. Who will Belgrade defend in 20 years if no one is left to be defended. I am certainly not for the Albanian version of independence. I am for the type of independence that would internationally guarante and protect Serbs and other minorities in Kosmet. Proposal rejections, economic blockades, separations, will have as much negative effects for us as for Albanians. I agree with you KlA began as a terrorist organization and still some elements in it haven't changed, and oftenly some of my Serbian brothers feel akward to negociate with them, it's totally understandable, but we have to negociate with someone. That is the only way there may be international protection. Even if Kosmet remained within Serbia, no one will be able to stop the immigration of Serbs into other parts of Serbia. The fact is that as much as Serbs are leaving Kosmet for fear of violence, they are also leaving because of the horrible economical situation Kosmet finds itself in.

Only foreign investment, international guarante of the security, and Serbia's direct conection with those communities, will help alter to some point the Kosmet Serb's imiigration to other places.

Thank you for your kind words,

Boris,