Exactly, there are no angels in the ballkans. And as i said earlier, perhaps if the roles were reversed then we would have done the same thing to you.
But the facts stand, serbia was and is a major military power in the ballkans and it used that power carelessly. The use the term "Greater Albania" can not be possibly compared with the continuous and concrete military efforts to actualy create "Greater Serbia"
Your interpretation of the leage of prizeren's objectives is your own interpretation of history, and i respect that.
Argumenting the reasons why the League had to play on both sides would take a very long time and quite frankly i got smarter things to do.
while one may not be able to point to a "single document"... one can point to various movements now 135 yrs old that are distinctly related
1878 prizren league is the alb. national myth and 1st attempt to create a unified albanian region since skanderbeg's failed attempt in the middle ages. formed with the withdrawal of the alb imperial patron (ottomans) after 4 centuries of dominance in the balkans ("suddenly the albanians were no longer in a position of privilege"). the league managed to bring alb. national interests before the great powers and paved the way for the 1899 peja league, which had foreign support from italy & the austrian-hungarian empire (who both coveted bosnia and opposed a unified serbia).
Stated goals:
article 1: "to preserve and maintain the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans by supporting the Turkish Sultan, Islamic Shariah law, and to struggle in arms to defend the wholeness of the territories".
article 6 restates the hostility of albanians, as ottoman loyalists, to the independence of both bulgaria and serbia. "We should not allow foreign armies to tread on our land. We should not recognize Bulgaria's name. If Serbia does not leave peacefully the illegally occupied countries, we should send bashibazouks (akindjias) and strive until the end to liberate these regions, including Montenegro."
the second prizren league (1943) to ensure the formation of a greater alb. containing alb, kosovo and areas of significant alb. populations (intellectual forebearer of albanians today). It portrayed itself as an anti-communist organisation (politically expedient), but held extremist views similar to nazi germany (it's funders): anti-democratic, anti-orthodox and anti-slavic views. The league collaborated openly with the axis powers (in order to "liberate" its territories from serbia.
i am able to recognize the crimes where they exist (the murders, the kids beat up on the street, the people humiliated and beaten down). but why exactly cannot the albanian side recognize their complicity in creating that very nationalism? You really make it seem like yu guys were angles and milosevic came out of hell to torment you. since serbian indep in 1878 (hard fought with blood and guts) albanians have sought to purge "reclaim and their lands" of serbs and achieve the same for their own people. during those times they made some very unfortunate alliances and took part in some bad deeds. There are no angels in the balkans.
kreshnik, strong rebuttal, but if i may re-work YOUR own words this way i think you may find nothing in it to be non-factual:
On the other hand we must remember that the goal of Albanians has always been a greater Albania. And being attached to 9M Serbs was the greatest impediment to this goal. So the elimination of autonomy for Republic status was definitely part of the plan to achieve eventual independence. Eliminating the Serb impediment was not the original idea of Albanians at the time - this was planned even earlier. Especially (to their disgrace) by the Prizren League, who went so far as to prepare colonization and elimination plans (some of which came to actuality in Kosovo during World War 2). From the League of Prizren: "If Serbia does not leave peacefully the illegally occupied countries, we should send bashibazouks (akindjias) and strive until the end to liberate these regions, including Montenegro."
You fail to understand is that Milosevic was formed as a response to this decades long threat that was reching its culmination in the late 80's. By then, Serbia had been pushed way too far by the ethnic nationalities that were using constitutional protections simply to discard that very constitution at a later date when they would declare independence and walk away.
one must ask WHY did the events of the 90's take place.
"undertanding Milosevic's psyche" is esential to understanding th psyche of the serbian nation as a whole"???
This is the most ignorant comment i have ever heard! I wont even bother with that one
That text you quote, pffft! nice try. This just highlights your sheer hypocrisy. Recently, the Serbian Minister of Science made statements in reference to Kosovo remaining within Serbia's borders. Albanians quickly dismissed his comments, stating as it was out of his jurisdiction and it didnt really matter what the Minister of Science thought anyway. Now you are quoting text from a 1986 memorandum, drafted by a member of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences! Sorry, but you can't vote twice
Would you like me to post some exerts re the ideology of a Greater Albania, or perhaps from the KLA? Additionally, the text you quoted does not refer to occupation, rather RE-occupation of Serbian lands, there is a huge difference. Neutral historical accounts regarding Kosovo pre 1912, and beyond, are far in favour of the Serbs, so I wouldn’t go quoting this history Kreshnik
Using your theory that State leaders are a potrayal of a nation as a whole, lets apply that to your PM, Agim Ceku. A man who went to fight a war that was'nt even his (Croatia), and not only assisted, but was directly involved in the slaughter of hundreds of Serbs, and the expulsion of over half a million. Is this a general representation of the Albanian people as a whole?? But ofcourse, in your eyes he is not a murderer, but a hero, whis makes it even worse.
and i challange you to find a single document where the KLA or Greater Albania believers have went into such detail on how to remove the serbian population from Kosovo.
and lets not forget that the quotes i posted were from one of the top serbian thinkers oh his time. lets not even get into what the cetnik with the knife thought about the idea...
Whether our PM personally participated in the ethnic cleansing in croatia is not for me to judge. The best judge for that is the Hague, and it seems they dont share your opinion.
The difference betwen you and me is that i understand and realise that half a million serbs were ethnicly cleansed from Croatia.
While you dont even admit nor accept the attrocities commited by the serbian troops in Kosovo. You think that the war in Kosovo started because of the KLA but what you fail to understand is that the KLA was formed as a response to oppression and discrimination in its purest form.
Until you accept your own peoples sins you will always be identified with the butcher of the ballkans.
Agim Qeku and Milosevic can not be compared simply because the first is accepted internationally as an honorable person, while the second was charged for war crimes in accordance with international law.
First of all "undertanding Milosevic's psyche" is esential to understanding th psyche of the serbian nation as a whole. You voted and supported him in his destructive wars. My attempt to understand his psyche is inderectly an attempt to understand your own psyche piran.
If you still deny what happened during the Yugoslav wars that can only mean that your psyche and his psyche are one and the same.
After all we must first learn to undersant one another and perhaps later we can compromise.
-------------------------
Vaso Cubrilovic
Member of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences
Plan on the Expulsion of the Albanians (1937) presented to the Stojadinovic government.
Unedited quotes:
- From 1918 onwards it was the task of our present state to destroy the remainder of the Albanian triangle.
- The only possible way for our mass colonization of those regions was to take the land from the Albanians.
- To nationalize the regions around the Sar Mountain means to bury any irredentism forever, to ensure our power in these territories forever.
- The only way and the only means to cope with them (albanians) is the brute force of an organized state, in which we have always been superior to them.
- Another means would be coercion by the state apparatus. The law must be enforced to the letter so as to make staying intolerable for the Albanians: fines and imprisonments, the ruthless application of all police dispositions
- Private initiative, too, can assist greatly in this direction. We should distribute weapons to our colonists as need be.
Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences
Memorandum 1986
GREATER SERBIA
This is basicly a call to arms for the Serbs everywere to free themselves from the tyrany of Yugoslavia. Its quite interesing how the SAAS used the word "genocide" while purporting that its a common occurence in Kosovo where albanians commit genocide against Serbs. Phehaps someone should remind them that genocide is a defined term under international law, and they as the top intelectuals of their country should not use it so easily.
The document goes on and on how serbs are the victims and they should free themselves by "any means necesary"
----------------------
If you wish i could find more documents by members of the SAAS that go into great detail on the specific methods that should be used to colonize Kosovo and make life miserable for the ethnic albanians.
'who went so far as to prepare colonization and elimination plans.'
All these things you speak of (you go as far as to dwell into Milosevic's psyche!) are fantasy. Have a look at what is actually happening. Kosovo is awash with criminals. You think "Independance" will somehow magically make all the bad things dissapear?? The Albanians always seem to have an excuse for all of their nasty actions. You are running out of people to point fingers at.
i believe its a combination of both of the factors.
Milosevic striped Kosovo of its autonomy because he was afraid the we would try to use the constitution to our advantage and claim that we had the same rights as everyone else (which in fact we did). We had the same rights legally and practically. Milosevic knew that at the time we had neither the military capacity nor the international support that we gained during 99. He made a strategic error by striping Kosovo of its autonomy. By keeping the autonomy in place he could easly avoided 99. Politically speaking no one in the world (not even the US) would back the separation of Kosovo if the ppopulation had substantial autonomy.
On the other hand we must remember that Milosevic's unltimate goal was greater serbia. And having 2 milion albanians at the heart of it would not have seemed a very smart idea to him. So the elimination of the albanian factor completely was definately one of the reasons. Eliminating the albanian factor was not his original idea, this was planned even earlier. Especially (to their disgrace) by the Serbian Academy of Sciences, who went so far as to prepare colonization and elimination plans.
Gregoric: "Slobodan Milosevic modified the status of Vojvodina and Kosovo through a constitution ammendment".(Ilegally, without the consent of the K-Albanians and without the consent of Hungarians in Vojvodina)
" A new constitution was being developed for the status of Kosovo when the Balkan wars broke out.
The preamble in the constitution did make special provisions to recognizing all rights including minority. (Are you talking about constitution in the time of Milosevic? if you are, then the minority rights did not have a chance to be respected. I am saying this because even in the so called democratic Serbia the recent constitution does not respect the rights of minorities).
Kosovo Albanians are a minority in Serbia proper comprising less than 20% of the population". (Albanians are nation, you wish they were minority, that way Serbia would have dealt with much ease.)
"Finally, both Kosovo and Vojvodina never recieved full republic status and were autonomous regions under Serb ia" (Kosova has it's own borders, and was comprising entity in the former Yugoslavia)
Peace and prosperity for all of us.
yes ,kosovo were under turkish rule ,so according to your legal point of vue, serbia had not the right to take that part of a soverain state?! But serbia did it!
So why do you believe that kosovo can not be once again taken from "soverain " serbia?
never say never,because History is just a long history of pieces of "soverain" states becoming independant!
these are great comments and i welcome the intellectual exploration. my obvious answer is that the 70's, 80's and 90's (or any other period) are unfortunate facts... that as unfortunate as they are do not lend themselves to legal amputation without bypassing the legality... and therefore setting international precedent -- hence the perfect contradiction otherwise known as 1244 which it appears can only be solved via international mediation that increasingly seems will require a solution that neither is happy with -- sorta like the brcko solution in bosnia. thoughts?
Slobodan Milosevic modified the status of Vojvodina and Kosovo through a constitution ammendment. A new constitution was being developed for the status of Kosovo when the Balkan wars broke out.
The preamble in the constitution did make special provisions to recognizing all rights including minority.
Kosovo Albanians are a minority in Serbia proper comprising less than 20% of the population.
Finally, both Kosovo and Vojvodina never recieved full republic status and were autonomous regions under Serb ia. Much different than the TITO recognized borders of Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia, Makedonia, & Bosnia/Herzegovina.
Finally, in 1912 the Albanians were under the Ottoman Turks, Pashalik of Turkey fighting against the Serbs!
More Kreshnik and Blag. Very excellent comments...
@ Kreshnik
Is it possible in your opinion that Miloseviqi perhaps felt threatened at the possible separation of Kosovo from Serbia that led to his crackdown in the first place, or do you feel that somehow a nationalism was growing that didn't allow for Albanians in the formula??
According to my opinion and personal interpretation of the situation (having lived a part of that period) in the 70's and 80's, i sincerely believe those stories were exagerated. The explanation is quite simple and it relates to human nature itself.
The 1974 constitution gave the albanian population subtantial autonomy and "self-determination" which they didnt have before that time. And its only natural that the Serbian population who was priviledged before that would feel discriminated and left out. Betwen 1974 and 1989 the K Serbs had equal rights with the albanian population, but they still felt discriminated because they believed that they should be priviledged. They reasoned this with claims that "Kosovo is serb land and the Albanians are instruders". Its human nature for someone to want to be priviledges in comparison with someone they consider "alien".
The situation, especially in the 80's was worsened by the rising nationalists in Serbia proper, who supported this idea of Serb Priviledges.
This is a fact that is supported by the actions of the Milosevic regime. In 1991 almost 95% of the albanian civil servants were fired and replaced with serbs. The leadership of the state, education, judicial and cultural institution was discharged and replaced with Serbian Leadership Exclusively.
In another post you consider the albanian posters here to be emotional.
This has nothing to do with emotions. The reason why we want independence and nothing else is because we experienced the "subtantial autonomy" and the "1974 solution" that Draskovic Tadic are offering us now.
And we all know how easy those solutions were thrown out the window by a Milosevic.
Which is why we wont accept anything that does not specifically provide for "complete and permanent independence from serbia".
Agnes, I really don't know what you're getting at. I do believe in self-determination, but not at the cost of regional stability. I've never said, and I did not say above, that Serbia deserves Kosovo because of some historical legacy. I said that no country, Albania included, would not sit there and acquiesce to territory being taken away from it. Furthermore, I firmly believe Albanians have been denied basic rights in the region for a long time under the Yugoslav government, and definitely deserve a better life. But again, that life should not come with the price of instability and further conflict in the region. And as far as "murderous wars" from the 8th century as you say, Kosovo has been controlled by a number of powers: Byzantines, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Serbs, and Albanians. A lot has happened between the 8th and the 21st centuries, so any such "Illyrian" claims to the land shares the stage with many other powers and claims to the land.
kreshnik, thanks. i belive this to be the crux of the matter. the 1974 constitution definitely contradicts itself. it was so ill-conceived that it emboldened the radical fringe of K (remember the stories from the late 70's and early 80's in the world press) and it emboldened the radical fringe of S (leading to milosevic's 1989 maneuver and everything that followed).
tito's policy was generally strong yugoslvia = weak serbia (no other republic had to endure this level of humiliation nor labor). nevertheless it was the legal constitution of the nation. so to claim constitional protection and recognition on one hand... but also use the those same protections and recognition to succeed is not proper... and exactly what the the other republics did. for example, slovenia, croatia, and montenegro all left larger in size than when they arrived (land taken at the expense of others). each using the constition in thier drive for independence and each choosing SELECTIVE defense of the constitution.
belgrade has offered enhanced 1974-era powers (in essence saying that milosevic's 1989 actions were not proper).
Although i dissagree with your point about legality, i must admitt that yours is one of the best presented arguements here. Which also makes it worth to reply to.
Yes, legally speaking Kosovo was a part of Serbia (with various degrees of control at various points in history) during the XX century.
However, under the 1974 contitution Kosovo was guaranteed almost soverign rights. Betwen 1974 and 1989 Kosovo was only bound by the Yugoslav Constitution and its own laws, issues by the Kosovo Assembly. The 1974 contitution contradicts itself by formally keeping Kosovo linked to serbia but practicaly giving it Republican Level Powers. This leaves a lot of room for arguements and questions on whether the link with serbia was resonable at all.
Furthermore, in 1989 Slobodan Milosevic violently anexed from Yugoslavia and made it a part of Serbia. What gave Serbia the right to anex a FEDERAL ENTITY who's rights were guranteed by the constitution itself?
Granted, the UNSC Resolution 1244 confirms Serbia's claim to Kosovo, but the resolution itself is a political document and a temporary compromise. The 1244 resolution admits Serbia's claim to Kosovo but on the other hand it basicly strips Serbia of all its rights in Kosovo.
John,Kate Vlad Mike!
If you have such strong facts against Ceku why dont you simply accuse him on International Tribunal!
I think that hiding crime is equal to commiting it.
As for independence for my opinion is the best solution for Serbia itself because it will be more safe from Alb. Expansion refering to birth rate of that nation.
With this natality rate alb. will soon be majority in Serbia.
So Serbia would heal its albo-fobia by amputating Kosovo.
Why don't all of you once and for all stop dreaming. I dont think any of you ever was in Kosovo. I dont think any of you was rejected the right to be educated in his mother tongue, I dont think any of you was ever beaten by Serbian police. I dont think any of you EVER woke up in the morning praying that the police will not harras you.
You dont know how it was, and you never will. So please don's say anything of what you are not sure. During Kosovo wartime Serbian PM Vojislav Kostunica came near Kosovo with and AK47 in his hands and now he is an PM. Agim Ceku fought in Croatia beacuse he wanted justice. He fought in Kosovo because it is his mnotherland. And I am sure he will fight again if it is neccesary.
I think Ceku's constant talk of independence represents his desperation. He promised the Kosovar Albanians independence and it now looks like he will not be able to deliver. It's kind of like begging the Serbian government to give Kosovo independence by using the same old rhetoric.
I wonder who has made Serbs owners of that land? Or is it God dear Mike? Or maybe all the murderous wars since the beginning of occupation of Balkans in the eighth century.
I guess the right to self-determination doesn't exist in your dictionary, does it?
When people with a commun goal love a union as it is with American states, and share an equal amount of culture, language and so on, it's quite logical to try to preserve that Union?
What do you Serbs share with Albanians on that level?
(Accept the claim to that land which was an Ilirian land to begin with?)
There are not enough Greek's in southern Albania to declare independence. If there were, they would have done it already. Albania, unlike Serbia, is a 98% homogenous population. The Albanian inhabited territories of present day Kosovo, Western Macedonia, Chameria, Presevo, and Ulqin, (+ Hoti & Gruda), were unjustly given to neighboring states in 1913. Now the situation is being corrected, and it doesn't matter what Serba have to say about it.
Serbia's principled stance backed by Russia has caused a stir in the West that is the true reason with the delay and Ceku the US poodle can wait in line like a good little boy behind the other US poodle - Bliar.
Next year when EUmik takes control with no mention of independence hopefully at that point the ethnic Albanains will realise the words of Bliar "So conform to it; or don't come here. We don't want the hate-mongers, whatever their race, religion or creed."
Looks like 2007 will be a good year for the region and a win-win is possible just hope the idiots on all sides can be kept under control and no one group reverts to violence as recently threatened and in some instances acted. Ditch the violence and learn to live peacefully and fully in Serbia.
Now I know the real reason behind Kosovars' drive for independence. They want independence for the good of the Serbian people. This whole time, Albanians have just wanted what is best for Serbs. What a joke! I do not even think there are any Albanians who believe Ceku's ridiculous statement.
remember that the albanian playbook is to make EMOTIONAL appeals because they don't have LEGAL or POLITICAL strengths to base those appeals on.
witness how albanian commentators on this site only present emotional appeals ("already independent", "never again", "1912", "just wait and see"). it's all they really have becase their fate is not in their own hands because they don't have a seat at the table. the only power they really have is EMOTIONAL APPEAL or THREAT OF VIOLENCE.
as kostunica has said over and over again serbs must keep the attention on the LEGAL to counteract the EMOTIONAL (this is a very sound strategy and one that cannot be papered over) while routinely condeming the VIOLENT. the world runs on legal contracts... and the occasional violence by bigger powers.
Ceku still doesn't get it. Serbia isn't holding onto Kosovo simply because of some mythological idea that he claims. Serbia is holding onto Kosovo because it is part of their sovereign territory, and would be just as resistant if the issue of seceding territory was in Sandjak, Presevo, or Vojvodina. No state will simply sit back and allow a portion of its territory to be taken away, and I'm sure Ceku or any other official in Pristina would be screaming bloody treason if the issue of northern Kosovo or the Serb area around Strpce were ever to declare independence, or of Greeks in southern Albania (Northern Epiros) were to do the same. People who think the region is only important because of some mythologized battle over 600 years ago never read anything past Kaplan's "Balkan Ghosts" on the region.
Agim Ceku was responsible for the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Serbs from the Krajina region during the 90s. Many innocent people were murdered and driven from from their homes. Strange how he is now welcomed as a guest opinion writer for the WP instead of being held at The ['non-biased'] Hague with his counterparts.
Isn't Agim the saint that was looking out for Serbs' best interest in Krajina? This guy should run for PM of Serbia when he's through with his current gig. No one looks out for what's best for the Serbs than he :)
Why don't all of you once and for all stop dreaming. I dont think any of you ever was in Kosovo. I dont think any of you was rejected the right to be educated in his mother tongue, I dont think any of you was ever beaten by Serbian police. I dont think any of you EVER woke up in the morning praying that the police will not harras you.
You dont know how it was, and you never will. So please don's say anything of what you are not sure. During Kosovo wartime Serbian PM Vojislav Kostunica came near Kosovo with and AK47 in his hands and now he is an PM. Agim Ceku fought in Croatia beacuse he wanted justice. He fought in Kosovo because it is his mnotherland. And I am sure he will fight again if it is neccesary.
Agim Ceku was responsible for the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Serbs from the Krajina region during the 90s. Many innocent people were murdered and driven from from their homes. Strange how he is now welcomed as a guest opinion writer for the WP instead of being held at The ['non-biased'] Hague with his counterparts.
Isn't Agim the saint that was looking out for Serbs' best interest in Krajina? This guy should run for PM of Serbia when he's through with his current gig. No one looks out for what's best for the Serbs than he :)
Ceku still doesn't get it. Serbia isn't holding onto Kosovo simply because of some mythological idea that he claims. Serbia is holding onto Kosovo because it is part of their sovereign territory, and would be just as resistant if the issue of seceding territory was in Sandjak, Presevo, or Vojvodina. No state will simply sit back and allow a portion of its territory to be taken away, and I'm sure Ceku or any other official in Pristina would be screaming bloody treason if the issue of northern Kosovo or the Serb area around Strpce were ever to declare independence, or of Greeks in southern Albania (Northern Epiros) were to do the same. People who think the region is only important because of some mythologized battle over 600 years ago never read anything past Kaplan's "Balkan Ghosts" on the region.
remember that the albanian playbook is to make EMOTIONAL appeals because they don't have LEGAL or POLITICAL strengths to base those appeals on.
witness how albanian commentators on this site only present emotional appeals ("already independent", "never again", "1912", "just wait and see"). it's all they really have becase their fate is not in their own hands because they don't have a seat at the table. the only power they really have is EMOTIONAL APPEAL or THREAT OF VIOLENCE.
as kostunica has said over and over again serbs must keep the attention on the LEGAL to counteract the EMOTIONAL (this is a very sound strategy and one that cannot be papered over) while routinely condeming the VIOLENT. the world runs on legal contracts... and the occasional violence by bigger powers.
Now I know the real reason behind Kosovars' drive for independence. They want independence for the good of the Serbian people. This whole time, Albanians have just wanted what is best for Serbs. What a joke! I do not even think there are any Albanians who believe Ceku's ridiculous statement.
Serbia's principled stance backed by Russia has caused a stir in the West that is the true reason with the delay and Ceku the US poodle can wait in line like a good little boy behind the other US poodle - Bliar.
Next year when EUmik takes control with no mention of independence hopefully at that point the ethnic Albanains will realise the words of Bliar "So conform to it; or don't come here. We don't want the hate-mongers, whatever their race, religion or creed."
Looks like 2007 will be a good year for the region and a win-win is possible just hope the idiots on all sides can be kept under control and no one group reverts to violence as recently threatened and in some instances acted. Ditch the violence and learn to live peacefully and fully in Serbia.
There are not enough Greek's in southern Albania to declare independence. If there were, they would have done it already. Albania, unlike Serbia, is a 98% homogenous population. The Albanian inhabited territories of present day Kosovo, Western Macedonia, Chameria, Presevo, and Ulqin, (+ Hoti & Gruda), were unjustly given to neighboring states in 1913. Now the situation is being corrected, and it doesn't matter what Serba have to say about it.
I think Ceku's constant talk of independence represents his desperation. He promised the Kosovar Albanians independence and it now looks like he will not be able to deliver. It's kind of like begging the Serbian government to give Kosovo independence by using the same old rhetoric.
I wonder who has made Serbs owners of that land? Or is it God dear Mike? Or maybe all the murderous wars since the beginning of occupation of Balkans in the eighth century.
I guess the right to self-determination doesn't exist in your dictionary, does it?
When people with a commun goal love a union as it is with American states, and share an equal amount of culture, language and so on, it's quite logical to try to preserve that Union?
What do you Serbs share with Albanians on that level?
(Accept the claim to that land which was an Ilirian land to begin with?)
John,Kate Vlad Mike!
If you have such strong facts against Ceku why dont you simply accuse him on International Tribunal!
I think that hiding crime is equal to commiting it.
As for independence for my opinion is the best solution for Serbia itself because it will be more safe from Alb. Expansion refering to birth rate of that nation.
With this natality rate alb. will soon be majority in Serbia.
So Serbia would heal its albo-fobia by amputating Kosovo.
Although i dissagree with your point about legality, i must admitt that yours is one of the best presented arguements here. Which also makes it worth to reply to.
Yes, legally speaking Kosovo was a part of Serbia (with various degrees of control at various points in history) during the XX century.
However, under the 1974 contitution Kosovo was guaranteed almost soverign rights. Betwen 1974 and 1989 Kosovo was only bound by the Yugoslav Constitution and its own laws, issues by the Kosovo Assembly. The 1974 contitution contradicts itself by formally keeping Kosovo linked to serbia but practicaly giving it Republican Level Powers. This leaves a lot of room for arguements and questions on whether the link with serbia was resonable at all.
Furthermore, in 1989 Slobodan Milosevic violently anexed from Yugoslavia and made it a part of Serbia. What gave Serbia the right to anex a FEDERAL ENTITY who's rights were guranteed by the constitution itself?
Granted, the UNSC Resolution 1244 confirms Serbia's claim to Kosovo, but the resolution itself is a political document and a temporary compromise. The 1244 resolution admits Serbia's claim to Kosovo but on the other hand it basicly strips Serbia of all its rights in Kosovo.
kreshnik, thanks. i belive this to be the crux of the matter. the 1974 constitution definitely contradicts itself. it was so ill-conceived that it emboldened the radical fringe of K (remember the stories from the late 70's and early 80's in the world press) and it emboldened the radical fringe of S (leading to milosevic's 1989 maneuver and everything that followed).
tito's policy was generally strong yugoslvia = weak serbia (no other republic had to endure this level of humiliation nor labor). nevertheless it was the legal constitution of the nation. so to claim constitional protection and recognition on one hand... but also use the those same protections and recognition to succeed is not proper... and exactly what the the other republics did. for example, slovenia, croatia, and montenegro all left larger in size than when they arrived (land taken at the expense of others). each using the constition in thier drive for independence and each choosing SELECTIVE defense of the constitution.
belgrade has offered enhanced 1974-era powers (in essence saying that milosevic's 1989 actions were not proper).
According to my opinion and personal interpretation of the situation (having lived a part of that period) in the 70's and 80's, i sincerely believe those stories were exagerated. The explanation is quite simple and it relates to human nature itself.
The 1974 constitution gave the albanian population subtantial autonomy and "self-determination" which they didnt have before that time. And its only natural that the Serbian population who was priviledged before that would feel discriminated and left out. Betwen 1974 and 1989 the K Serbs had equal rights with the albanian population, but they still felt discriminated because they believed that they should be priviledged. They reasoned this with claims that "Kosovo is serb land and the Albanians are instruders". Its human nature for someone to want to be priviledges in comparison with someone they consider "alien".
The situation, especially in the 80's was worsened by the rising nationalists in Serbia proper, who supported this idea of Serb Priviledges.
This is a fact that is supported by the actions of the Milosevic regime. In 1991 almost 95% of the albanian civil servants were fired and replaced with serbs. The leadership of the state, education, judicial and cultural institution was discharged and replaced with Serbian Leadership Exclusively.
In another post you consider the albanian posters here to be emotional.
This has nothing to do with emotions. The reason why we want independence and nothing else is because we experienced the "subtantial autonomy" and the "1974 solution" that Draskovic Tadic are offering us now.
And we all know how easy those solutions were thrown out the window by a Milosevic.
Which is why we wont accept anything that does not specifically provide for "complete and permanent independence from serbia".
Agnes, I really don't know what you're getting at. I do believe in self-determination, but not at the cost of regional stability. I've never said, and I did not say above, that Serbia deserves Kosovo because of some historical legacy. I said that no country, Albania included, would not sit there and acquiesce to territory being taken away from it. Furthermore, I firmly believe Albanians have been denied basic rights in the region for a long time under the Yugoslav government, and definitely deserve a better life. But again, that life should not come with the price of instability and further conflict in the region. And as far as "murderous wars" from the 8th century as you say, Kosovo has been controlled by a number of powers: Byzantines, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Serbs, and Albanians. A lot has happened between the 8th and the 21st centuries, so any such "Illyrian" claims to the land shares the stage with many other powers and claims to the land.
More Kreshnik and Blag. Very excellent comments...
@ Kreshnik
Is it possible in your opinion that Miloseviqi perhaps felt threatened at the possible separation of Kosovo from Serbia that led to his crackdown in the first place, or do you feel that somehow a nationalism was growing that didn't allow for Albanians in the formula??
Slobodan Milosevic modified the status of Vojvodina and Kosovo through a constitution ammendment. A new constitution was being developed for the status of Kosovo when the Balkan wars broke out.
The preamble in the constitution did make special provisions to recognizing all rights including minority.
Kosovo Albanians are a minority in Serbia proper comprising less than 20% of the population.
Finally, both Kosovo and Vojvodina never recieved full republic status and were autonomous regions under Serb ia. Much different than the TITO recognized borders of Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia, Makedonia, & Bosnia/Herzegovina.
Finally, in 1912 the Albanians were under the Ottoman Turks, Pashalik of Turkey fighting against the Serbs!
these are great comments and i welcome the intellectual exploration. my obvious answer is that the 70's, 80's and 90's (or any other period) are unfortunate facts... that as unfortunate as they are do not lend themselves to legal amputation without bypassing the legality... and therefore setting international precedent -- hence the perfect contradiction otherwise known as 1244 which it appears can only be solved via international mediation that increasingly seems will require a solution that neither is happy with -- sorta like the brcko solution in bosnia. thoughts?
yes ,kosovo were under turkish rule ,so according to your legal point of vue, serbia had not the right to take that part of a soverain state?! But serbia did it!
So why do you believe that kosovo can not be once again taken from "soverain " serbia?
never say never,because History is just a long history of pieces of "soverain" states becoming independant!
Gregoric: "Slobodan Milosevic modified the status of Vojvodina and Kosovo through a constitution ammendment".(Ilegally, without the consent of the K-Albanians and without the consent of Hungarians in Vojvodina)
" A new constitution was being developed for the status of Kosovo when the Balkan wars broke out.
The preamble in the constitution did make special provisions to recognizing all rights including minority. (Are you talking about constitution in the time of Milosevic? if you are, then the minority rights did not have a chance to be respected. I am saying this because even in the so called democratic Serbia the recent constitution does not respect the rights of minorities).
Kosovo Albanians are a minority in Serbia proper comprising less than 20% of the population". (Albanians are nation, you wish they were minority, that way Serbia would have dealt with much ease.)
"Finally, both Kosovo and Vojvodina never recieved full republic status and were autonomous regions under Serb ia" (Kosova has it's own borders, and was comprising entity in the former Yugoslavia)
Peace and prosperity for all of us.
i believe its a combination of both of the factors.
Milosevic striped Kosovo of its autonomy because he was afraid the we would try to use the constitution to our advantage and claim that we had the same rights as everyone else (which in fact we did). We had the same rights legally and practically. Milosevic knew that at the time we had neither the military capacity nor the international support that we gained during 99. He made a strategic error by striping Kosovo of its autonomy. By keeping the autonomy in place he could easly avoided 99. Politically speaking no one in the world (not even the US) would back the separation of Kosovo if the ppopulation had substantial autonomy.
On the other hand we must remember that Milosevic's unltimate goal was greater serbia. And having 2 milion albanians at the heart of it would not have seemed a very smart idea to him. So the elimination of the albanian factor completely was definately one of the reasons. Eliminating the albanian factor was not his original idea, this was planned even earlier. Especially (to their disgrace) by the Serbian Academy of Sciences, who went so far as to prepare colonization and elimination plans.
'who went so far as to prepare colonization and elimination plans.'
All these things you speak of (you go as far as to dwell into Milosevic's psyche!) are fantasy. Have a look at what is actually happening. Kosovo is awash with criminals. You think "Independance" will somehow magically make all the bad things dissapear?? The Albanians always seem to have an excuse for all of their nasty actions. You are running out of people to point fingers at.
First of all "undertanding Milosevic's psyche" is esential to understanding th psyche of the serbian nation as a whole. You voted and supported him in his destructive wars. My attempt to understand his psyche is inderectly an attempt to understand your own psyche piran.
If you still deny what happened during the Yugoslav wars that can only mean that your psyche and his psyche are one and the same.
After all we must first learn to undersant one another and perhaps later we can compromise.
-------------------------
Vaso Cubrilovic
Member of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences
Plan on the Expulsion of the Albanians (1937) presented to the Stojadinovic government.
Unedited quotes:
- From 1918 onwards it was the task of our present state to destroy the remainder of the Albanian triangle.
- The only possible way for our mass colonization of those regions was to take the land from the Albanians.
- To nationalize the regions around the Sar Mountain means to bury any irredentism forever, to ensure our power in these territories forever.
- The only way and the only means to cope with them (albanians) is the brute force of an organized state, in which we have always been superior to them.
- Another means would be coercion by the state apparatus. The law must be enforced to the letter so as to make staying intolerable for the Albanians: fines and imprisonments, the ruthless application of all police dispositions
- Private initiative, too, can assist greatly in this direction. We should distribute weapons to our colonists as need be.
Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences
Memorandum 1986
GREATER SERBIA
This is basicly a call to arms for the Serbs everywere to free themselves from the tyrany of Yugoslavia. Its quite interesing how the SAAS used the word "genocide" while purporting that its a common occurence in Kosovo where albanians commit genocide against Serbs. Phehaps someone should remind them that genocide is a defined term under international law, and they as the top intelectuals of their country should not use it so easily.
The document goes on and on how serbs are the victims and they should free themselves by "any means necesary"
----------------------
If you wish i could find more documents by members of the SAAS that go into great detail on the specific methods that should be used to colonize Kosovo and make life miserable for the ethnic albanians.
"undertanding Milosevic's psyche" is esential to understanding th psyche of the serbian nation as a whole"???
This is the most ignorant comment i have ever heard! I wont even bother with that one
That text you quote, pffft! nice try. This just highlights your sheer hypocrisy. Recently, the Serbian Minister of Science made statements in reference to Kosovo remaining within Serbia's borders. Albanians quickly dismissed his comments, stating as it was out of his jurisdiction and it didnt really matter what the Minister of Science thought anyway. Now you are quoting text from a 1986 memorandum, drafted by a member of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences! Sorry, but you can't vote twice
Would you like me to post some exerts re the ideology of a Greater Albania, or perhaps from the KLA? Additionally, the text you quoted does not refer to occupation, rather RE-occupation of Serbian lands, there is a huge difference. Neutral historical accounts regarding Kosovo pre 1912, and beyond, are far in favour of the Serbs, so I wouldn’t go quoting this history Kreshnik
Using your theory that State leaders are a potrayal of a nation as a whole, lets apply that to your PM, Agim Ceku. A man who went to fight a war that was'nt even his (Croatia), and not only assisted, but was directly involved in the slaughter of hundreds of Serbs, and the expulsion of over half a million. Is this a general representation of the Albanian people as a whole?? But ofcourse, in your eyes he is not a murderer, but a hero, whis makes it even worse.
Whether our PM personally participated in the ethnic cleansing in croatia is not for me to judge. The best judge for that is the Hague, and it seems they dont share your opinion.
The difference betwen you and me is that i understand and realise that half a million serbs were ethnicly cleansed from Croatia.
While you dont even admit nor accept the attrocities commited by the serbian troops in Kosovo. You think that the war in Kosovo started because of the KLA but what you fail to understand is that the KLA was formed as a response to oppression and discrimination in its purest form.
Until you accept your own peoples sins you will always be identified with the butcher of the ballkans.
Agim Qeku and Milosevic can not be compared simply because the first is accepted internationally as an honorable person, while the second was charged for war crimes in accordance with international law.
and i challange you to find a single document where the KLA or Greater Albania believers have went into such detail on how to remove the serbian population from Kosovo.
and lets not forget that the quotes i posted were from one of the top serbian thinkers oh his time. lets not even get into what the cetnik with the knife thought about the idea...
kreshnik, strong rebuttal, but if i may re-work YOUR own words this way i think you may find nothing in it to be non-factual:
On the other hand we must remember that the goal of Albanians has always been a greater Albania. And being attached to 9M Serbs was the greatest impediment to this goal. So the elimination of autonomy for Republic status was definitely part of the plan to achieve eventual independence. Eliminating the Serb impediment was not the original idea of Albanians at the time - this was planned even earlier. Especially (to their disgrace) by the Prizren League, who went so far as to prepare colonization and elimination plans (some of which came to actuality in Kosovo during World War 2). From the League of Prizren: "If Serbia does not leave peacefully the illegally occupied countries, we should send bashibazouks (akindjias) and strive until the end to liberate these regions, including Montenegro."
You fail to understand is that Milosevic was formed as a response to this decades long threat that was reching its culmination in the late 80's. By then, Serbia had been pushed way too far by the ethnic nationalities that were using constitutional protections simply to discard that very constitution at a later date when they would declare independence and walk away.
one must ask WHY did the events of the 90's take place.
while one may not be able to point to a "single document"... one can point to various movements now 135 yrs old that are distinctly related
1878 prizren league is the alb. national myth and 1st attempt to create a unified albanian region since skanderbeg's failed attempt in the middle ages. formed with the withdrawal of the alb imperial patron (ottomans) after 4 centuries of dominance in the balkans ("suddenly the albanians were no longer in a position of privilege"). the league managed to bring alb. national interests before the great powers and paved the way for the 1899 peja league, which had foreign support from italy & the austrian-hungarian empire (who both coveted bosnia and opposed a unified serbia).
Stated goals:
article 1: "to preserve and maintain the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans by supporting the Turkish Sultan, Islamic Shariah law, and to struggle in arms to defend the wholeness of the territories".
article 6 restates the hostility of albanians, as ottoman loyalists, to the independence of both bulgaria and serbia. "We should not allow foreign armies to tread on our land. We should not recognize Bulgaria's name. If Serbia does not leave peacefully the illegally occupied countries, we should send bashibazouks (akindjias) and strive until the end to liberate these regions, including Montenegro."
the second prizren league (1943) to ensure the formation of a greater alb. containing alb, kosovo and areas of significant alb. populations (intellectual forebearer of albanians today). It portrayed itself as an anti-communist organisation (politically expedient), but held extremist views similar to nazi germany (it's funders): anti-democratic, anti-orthodox and anti-slavic views. The league collaborated openly with the axis powers (in order to "liberate" its territories from serbia.
i am able to recognize the crimes where they exist (the murders, the kids beat up on the street, the people humiliated and beaten down). but why exactly cannot the albanian side recognize their complicity in creating that very nationalism? You really make it seem like yu guys were angles and milosevic came out of hell to torment you. since serbian indep in 1878 (hard fought with blood and guts) albanians have sought to purge "reclaim and their lands" of serbs and achieve the same for their own people. during those times they made some very unfortunate alliances and took part in some bad deeds. There are no angels in the balkans.
Exactly, there are no angels in the ballkans. And as i said earlier, perhaps if the roles were reversed then we would have done the same thing to you.
But the facts stand, serbia was and is a major military power in the ballkans and it used that power carelessly. The use the term "Greater Albania" can not be possibly compared with the continuous and concrete military efforts to actualy create "Greater Serbia"
Your interpretation of the leage of prizeren's objectives is your own interpretation of history, and i respect that.
Argumenting the reasons why the League had to play on both sides would take a very long time and quite frankly i got smarter things to do.
Agim Ceku was responsible for the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Serbs from the Krajina region during the 90s. Many innocent people were murdered and driven from from their homes. Strange how he is now welcomed as a guest opinion writer for the WP instead of being held at The ['non-biased'] Hague with his counterparts.
Isn't Agim the saint that was looking out for Serbs' best interest in Krajina? This guy should run for PM of Serbia when he's through with his current gig. No one looks out for what's best for the Serbs than he :)
Ceku still doesn't get it. Serbia isn't holding onto Kosovo simply because of some mythological idea that he claims. Serbia is holding onto Kosovo because it is part of their sovereign territory, and would be just as resistant if the issue of seceding territory was in Sandjak, Presevo, or Vojvodina. No state will simply sit back and allow a portion of its territory to be taken away, and I'm sure Ceku or any other official in Pristina would be screaming bloody treason if the issue of northern Kosovo or the Serb area around Strpce were ever to declare independence, or of Greeks in southern Albania (Northern Epiros) were to do the same. People who think the region is only important because of some mythologized battle over 600 years ago never read anything past Kaplan's "Balkan Ghosts" on the region.
remember that the albanian playbook is to make EMOTIONAL appeals because they don't have LEGAL or POLITICAL strengths to base those appeals on.
witness how albanian commentators on this site only present emotional appeals ("already independent", "never again", "1912", "just wait and see"). it's all they really have becase their fate is not in their own hands because they don't have a seat at the table. the only power they really have is EMOTIONAL APPEAL or THREAT OF VIOLENCE.
as kostunica has said over and over again serbs must keep the attention on the LEGAL to counteract the EMOTIONAL (this is a very sound strategy and one that cannot be papered over) while routinely condeming the VIOLENT. the world runs on legal contracts... and the occasional violence by bigger powers.
Now I know the real reason behind Kosovars' drive for independence. They want independence for the good of the Serbian people. This whole time, Albanians have just wanted what is best for Serbs. What a joke! I do not even think there are any Albanians who believe Ceku's ridiculous statement.
Serbia's principled stance backed by Russia has caused a stir in the West that is the true reason with the delay and Ceku the US poodle can wait in line like a good little boy behind the other US poodle - Bliar.
Next year when EUmik takes control with no mention of independence hopefully at that point the ethnic Albanains will realise the words of Bliar "So conform to it; or don't come here. We don't want the hate-mongers, whatever their race, religion or creed."
Looks like 2007 will be a good year for the region and a win-win is possible just hope the idiots on all sides can be kept under control and no one group reverts to violence as recently threatened and in some instances acted. Ditch the violence and learn to live peacefully and fully in Serbia.
There are not enough Greek's in southern Albania to declare independence. If there were, they would have done it already. Albania, unlike Serbia, is a 98% homogenous population. The Albanian inhabited territories of present day Kosovo, Western Macedonia, Chameria, Presevo, and Ulqin, (+ Hoti & Gruda), were unjustly given to neighboring states in 1913. Now the situation is being corrected, and it doesn't matter what Serba have to say about it.
I think Ceku's constant talk of independence represents his desperation. He promised the Kosovar Albanians independence and it now looks like he will not be able to deliver. It's kind of like begging the Serbian government to give Kosovo independence by using the same old rhetoric.
I wonder who has made Serbs owners of that land? Or is it God dear Mike? Or maybe all the murderous wars since the beginning of occupation of Balkans in the eighth century.
I guess the right to self-determination doesn't exist in your dictionary, does it?
When people with a commun goal love a union as it is with American states, and share an equal amount of culture, language and so on, it's quite logical to try to preserve that Union?
What do you Serbs share with Albanians on that level?
(Accept the claim to that land which was an Ilirian land to begin with?)
Why don't all of you once and for all stop dreaming. I dont think any of you ever was in Kosovo. I dont think any of you was rejected the right to be educated in his mother tongue, I dont think any of you was ever beaten by Serbian police. I dont think any of you EVER woke up in the morning praying that the police will not harras you.
You dont know how it was, and you never will. So please don's say anything of what you are not sure. During Kosovo wartime Serbian PM Vojislav Kostunica came near Kosovo with and AK47 in his hands and now he is an PM. Agim Ceku fought in Croatia beacuse he wanted justice. He fought in Kosovo because it is his mnotherland. And I am sure he will fight again if it is neccesary.
John,Kate Vlad Mike!
If you have such strong facts against Ceku why dont you simply accuse him on International Tribunal!
I think that hiding crime is equal to commiting it.
As for independence for my opinion is the best solution for Serbia itself because it will be more safe from Alb. Expansion refering to birth rate of that nation.
With this natality rate alb. will soon be majority in Serbia.
So Serbia would heal its albo-fobia by amputating Kosovo.
Although i dissagree with your point about legality, i must admitt that yours is one of the best presented arguements here. Which also makes it worth to reply to.
Yes, legally speaking Kosovo was a part of Serbia (with various degrees of control at various points in history) during the XX century.
However, under the 1974 contitution Kosovo was guaranteed almost soverign rights. Betwen 1974 and 1989 Kosovo was only bound by the Yugoslav Constitution and its own laws, issues by the Kosovo Assembly. The 1974 contitution contradicts itself by formally keeping Kosovo linked to serbia but practicaly giving it Republican Level Powers. This leaves a lot of room for arguements and questions on whether the link with serbia was resonable at all.
Furthermore, in 1989 Slobodan Milosevic violently anexed from Yugoslavia and made it a part of Serbia. What gave Serbia the right to anex a FEDERAL ENTITY who's rights were guranteed by the constitution itself?
Granted, the UNSC Resolution 1244 confirms Serbia's claim to Kosovo, but the resolution itself is a political document and a temporary compromise. The 1244 resolution admits Serbia's claim to Kosovo but on the other hand it basicly strips Serbia of all its rights in Kosovo.
kreshnik, thanks. i belive this to be the crux of the matter. the 1974 constitution definitely contradicts itself. it was so ill-conceived that it emboldened the radical fringe of K (remember the stories from the late 70's and early 80's in the world press) and it emboldened the radical fringe of S (leading to milosevic's 1989 maneuver and everything that followed).
tito's policy was generally strong yugoslvia = weak serbia (no other republic had to endure this level of humiliation nor labor). nevertheless it was the legal constitution of the nation. so to claim constitional protection and recognition on one hand... but also use the those same protections and recognition to succeed is not proper... and exactly what the the other republics did. for example, slovenia, croatia, and montenegro all left larger in size than when they arrived (land taken at the expense of others). each using the constition in thier drive for independence and each choosing SELECTIVE defense of the constitution.
belgrade has offered enhanced 1974-era powers (in essence saying that milosevic's 1989 actions were not proper).
According to my opinion and personal interpretation of the situation (having lived a part of that period) in the 70's and 80's, i sincerely believe those stories were exagerated. The explanation is quite simple and it relates to human nature itself.
The 1974 constitution gave the albanian population subtantial autonomy and "self-determination" which they didnt have before that time. And its only natural that the Serbian population who was priviledged before that would feel discriminated and left out. Betwen 1974 and 1989 the K Serbs had equal rights with the albanian population, but they still felt discriminated because they believed that they should be priviledged. They reasoned this with claims that "Kosovo is serb land and the Albanians are instruders". Its human nature for someone to want to be priviledges in comparison with someone they consider "alien".
The situation, especially in the 80's was worsened by the rising nationalists in Serbia proper, who supported this idea of Serb Priviledges.
This is a fact that is supported by the actions of the Milosevic regime. In 1991 almost 95% of the albanian civil servants were fired and replaced with serbs. The leadership of the state, education, judicial and cultural institution was discharged and replaced with Serbian Leadership Exclusively.
In another post you consider the albanian posters here to be emotional.
This has nothing to do with emotions. The reason why we want independence and nothing else is because we experienced the "subtantial autonomy" and the "1974 solution" that Draskovic Tadic are offering us now.
And we all know how easy those solutions were thrown out the window by a Milosevic.
Which is why we wont accept anything that does not specifically provide for "complete and permanent independence from serbia".
Agnes, I really don't know what you're getting at. I do believe in self-determination, but not at the cost of regional stability. I've never said, and I did not say above, that Serbia deserves Kosovo because of some historical legacy. I said that no country, Albania included, would not sit there and acquiesce to territory being taken away from it. Furthermore, I firmly believe Albanians have been denied basic rights in the region for a long time under the Yugoslav government, and definitely deserve a better life. But again, that life should not come with the price of instability and further conflict in the region. And as far as "murderous wars" from the 8th century as you say, Kosovo has been controlled by a number of powers: Byzantines, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Serbs, and Albanians. A lot has happened between the 8th and the 21st centuries, so any such "Illyrian" claims to the land shares the stage with many other powers and claims to the land.
More Kreshnik and Blag. Very excellent comments...
@ Kreshnik
Is it possible in your opinion that Miloseviqi perhaps felt threatened at the possible separation of Kosovo from Serbia that led to his crackdown in the first place, or do you feel that somehow a nationalism was growing that didn't allow for Albanians in the formula??
Slobodan Milosevic modified the status of Vojvodina and Kosovo through a constitution ammendment. A new constitution was being developed for the status of Kosovo when the Balkan wars broke out.
The preamble in the constitution did make special provisions to recognizing all rights including minority.
Kosovo Albanians are a minority in Serbia proper comprising less than 20% of the population.
Finally, both Kosovo and Vojvodina never recieved full republic status and were autonomous regions under Serb ia. Much different than the TITO recognized borders of Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia, Makedonia, & Bosnia/Herzegovina.
Finally, in 1912 the Albanians were under the Ottoman Turks, Pashalik of Turkey fighting against the Serbs!
these are great comments and i welcome the intellectual exploration. my obvious answer is that the 70's, 80's and 90's (or any other period) are unfortunate facts... that as unfortunate as they are do not lend themselves to legal amputation without bypassing the legality... and therefore setting international precedent -- hence the perfect contradiction otherwise known as 1244 which it appears can only be solved via international mediation that increasingly seems will require a solution that neither is happy with -- sorta like the brcko solution in bosnia. thoughts?
yes ,kosovo were under turkish rule ,so according to your legal point of vue, serbia had not the right to take that part of a soverain state?! But serbia did it!
So why do you believe that kosovo can not be once again taken from "soverain " serbia?
never say never,because History is just a long history of pieces of "soverain" states becoming independant!
Gregoric: "Slobodan Milosevic modified the status of Vojvodina and Kosovo through a constitution ammendment".(Ilegally, without the consent of the K-Albanians and without the consent of Hungarians in Vojvodina)
" A new constitution was being developed for the status of Kosovo when the Balkan wars broke out.
The preamble in the constitution did make special provisions to recognizing all rights including minority. (Are you talking about constitution in the time of Milosevic? if you are, then the minority rights did not have a chance to be respected. I am saying this because even in the so called democratic Serbia the recent constitution does not respect the rights of minorities).
Kosovo Albanians are a minority in Serbia proper comprising less than 20% of the population". (Albanians are nation, you wish they were minority, that way Serbia would have dealt with much ease.)
"Finally, both Kosovo and Vojvodina never recieved full republic status and were autonomous regions under Serb ia" (Kosova has it's own borders, and was comprising entity in the former Yugoslavia)
Peace and prosperity for all of us.
i believe its a combination of both of the factors.
Milosevic striped Kosovo of its autonomy because he was afraid the we would try to use the constitution to our advantage and claim that we had the same rights as everyone else (which in fact we did). We had the same rights legally and practically. Milosevic knew that at the time we had neither the military capacity nor the international support that we gained during 99. He made a strategic error by striping Kosovo of its autonomy. By keeping the autonomy in place he could easly avoided 99. Politically speaking no one in the world (not even the US) would back the separation of Kosovo if the ppopulation had substantial autonomy.
On the other hand we must remember that Milosevic's unltimate goal was greater serbia. And having 2 milion albanians at the heart of it would not have seemed a very smart idea to him. So the elimination of the albanian factor completely was definately one of the reasons. Eliminating the albanian factor was not his original idea, this was planned even earlier. Especially (to their disgrace) by the Serbian Academy of Sciences, who went so far as to prepare colonization and elimination plans.
'who went so far as to prepare colonization and elimination plans.'
All these things you speak of (you go as far as to dwell into Milosevic's psyche!) are fantasy. Have a look at what is actually happening. Kosovo is awash with criminals. You think "Independance" will somehow magically make all the bad things dissapear?? The Albanians always seem to have an excuse for all of their nasty actions. You are running out of people to point fingers at.
First of all "undertanding Milosevic's psyche" is esential to understanding th psyche of the serbian nation as a whole. You voted and supported him in his destructive wars. My attempt to understand his psyche is inderectly an attempt to understand your own psyche piran.
If you still deny what happened during the Yugoslav wars that can only mean that your psyche and his psyche are one and the same.
After all we must first learn to undersant one another and perhaps later we can compromise.
-------------------------
Vaso Cubrilovic
Member of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences
Plan on the Expulsion of the Albanians (1937) presented to the Stojadinovic government.
Unedited quotes:
- From 1918 onwards it was the task of our present state to destroy the remainder of the Albanian triangle.
- The only possible way for our mass colonization of those regions was to take the land from the Albanians.
- To nationalize the regions around the Sar Mountain means to bury any irredentism forever, to ensure our power in these territories forever.
- The only way and the only means to cope with them (albanians) is the brute force of an organized state, in which we have always been superior to them.
- Another means would be coercion by the state apparatus. The law must be enforced to the letter so as to make staying intolerable for the Albanians: fines and imprisonments, the ruthless application of all police dispositions
- Private initiative, too, can assist greatly in this direction. We should distribute weapons to our colonists as need be.
Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences
Memorandum 1986
GREATER SERBIA
This is basicly a call to arms for the Serbs everywere to free themselves from the tyrany of Yugoslavia. Its quite interesing how the SAAS used the word "genocide" while purporting that its a common occurence in Kosovo where albanians commit genocide against Serbs. Phehaps someone should remind them that genocide is a defined term under international law, and they as the top intelectuals of their country should not use it so easily.
The document goes on and on how serbs are the victims and they should free themselves by "any means necesary"
----------------------
If you wish i could find more documents by members of the SAAS that go into great detail on the specific methods that should be used to colonize Kosovo and make life miserable for the ethnic albanians.
"undertanding Milosevic's psyche" is esential to understanding th psyche of the serbian nation as a whole"???
This is the most ignorant comment i have ever heard! I wont even bother with that one
That text you quote, pffft! nice try. This just highlights your sheer hypocrisy. Recently, the Serbian Minister of Science made statements in reference to Kosovo remaining within Serbia's borders. Albanians quickly dismissed his comments, stating as it was out of his jurisdiction and it didnt really matter what the Minister of Science thought anyway. Now you are quoting text from a 1986 memorandum, drafted by a member of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences! Sorry, but you can't vote twice
Would you like me to post some exerts re the ideology of a Greater Albania, or perhaps from the KLA? Additionally, the text you quoted does not refer to occupation, rather RE-occupation of Serbian lands, there is a huge difference. Neutral historical accounts regarding Kosovo pre 1912, and beyond, are far in favour of the Serbs, so I wouldn’t go quoting this history Kreshnik
Using your theory that State leaders are a potrayal of a nation as a whole, lets apply that to your PM, Agim Ceku. A man who went to fight a war that was'nt even his (Croatia), and not only assisted, but was directly involved in the slaughter of hundreds of Serbs, and the expulsion of over half a million. Is this a general representation of the Albanian people as a whole?? But ofcourse, in your eyes he is not a murderer, but a hero, whis makes it even worse.
Whether our PM personally participated in the ethnic cleansing in croatia is not for me to judge. The best judge for that is the Hague, and it seems they dont share your opinion.
The difference betwen you and me is that i understand and realise that half a million serbs were ethnicly cleansed from Croatia.
While you dont even admit nor accept the attrocities commited by the serbian troops in Kosovo. You think that the war in Kosovo started because of the KLA but what you fail to understand is that the KLA was formed as a response to oppression and discrimination in its purest form.
Until you accept your own peoples sins you will always be identified with the butcher of the ballkans.
Agim Qeku and Milosevic can not be compared simply because the first is accepted internationally as an honorable person, while the second was charged for war crimes in accordance with international law.
and i challange you to find a single document where the KLA or Greater Albania believers have went into such detail on how to remove the serbian population from Kosovo.
and lets not forget that the quotes i posted were from one of the top serbian thinkers oh his time. lets not even get into what the cetnik with the knife thought about the idea...
kreshnik, strong rebuttal, but if i may re-work YOUR own words this way i think you may find nothing in it to be non-factual:
On the other hand we must remember that the goal of Albanians has always been a greater Albania. And being attached to 9M Serbs was the greatest impediment to this goal. So the elimination of autonomy for Republic status was definitely part of the plan to achieve eventual independence. Eliminating the Serb impediment was not the original idea of Albanians at the time - this was planned even earlier. Especially (to their disgrace) by the Prizren League, who went so far as to prepare colonization and elimination plans (some of which came to actuality in Kosovo during World War 2). From the League of Prizren: "If Serbia does not leave peacefully the illegally occupied countries, we should send bashibazouks (akindjias) and strive until the end to liberate these regions, including Montenegro."
You fail to understand is that Milosevic was formed as a response to this decades long threat that was reching its culmination in the late 80's. By then, Serbia had been pushed way too far by the ethnic nationalities that were using constitutional protections simply to discard that very constitution at a later date when they would declare independence and walk away.
one must ask WHY did the events of the 90's take place.
while one may not be able to point to a "single document"... one can point to various movements now 135 yrs old that are distinctly related
1878 prizren league is the alb. national myth and 1st attempt to create a unified albanian region since skanderbeg's failed attempt in the middle ages. formed with the withdrawal of the alb imperial patron (ottomans) after 4 centuries of dominance in the balkans ("suddenly the albanians were no longer in a position of privilege"). the league managed to bring alb. national interests before the great powers and paved the way for the 1899 peja league, which had foreign support from italy & the austrian-hungarian empire (who both coveted bosnia and opposed a unified serbia).
Stated goals:
article 1: "to preserve and maintain the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans by supporting the Turkish Sultan, Islamic Shariah law, and to struggle in arms to defend the wholeness of the territories".
article 6 restates the hostility of albanians, as ottoman loyalists, to the independence of both bulgaria and serbia. "We should not allow foreign armies to tread on our land. We should not recognize Bulgaria's name. If Serbia does not leave peacefully the illegally occupied countries, we should send bashibazouks (akindjias) and strive until the end to liberate these regions, including Montenegro."
the second prizren league (1943) to ensure the formation of a greater alb. containing alb, kosovo and areas of significant alb. populations (intellectual forebearer of albanians today). It portrayed itself as an anti-communist organisation (politically expedient), but held extremist views similar to nazi germany (it's funders): anti-democratic, anti-orthodox and anti-slavic views. The league collaborated openly with the axis powers (in order to "liberate" its territories from serbia.
i am able to recognize the crimes where they exist (the murders, the kids beat up on the street, the people humiliated and beaten down). but why exactly cannot the albanian side recognize their complicity in creating that very nationalism? You really make it seem like yu guys were angles and milosevic came out of hell to torment you. since serbian indep in 1878 (hard fought with blood and guts) albanians have sought to purge "reclaim and their lands" of serbs and achieve the same for their own people. during those times they made some very unfortunate alliances and took part in some bad deeds. There are no angels in the balkans.
Exactly, there are no angels in the ballkans. And as i said earlier, perhaps if the roles were reversed then we would have done the same thing to you.
But the facts stand, serbia was and is a major military power in the ballkans and it used that power carelessly. The use the term "Greater Albania" can not be possibly compared with the continuous and concrete military efforts to actualy create "Greater Serbia"
Your interpretation of the leage of prizeren's objectives is your own interpretation of history, and i respect that.
Argumenting the reasons why the League had to play on both sides would take a very long time and quite frankly i got smarter things to do.
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