Kolinda wants "truth" about death camp determined again

Dear Kolinda,

Here's the "truth" about Jasenovac:

It served as the NDH's equivalent to Auschwitz, only without the industrialized mechanisms of mass killing, so everything had to be done by hand. Ustaše took turns competing with each other over how many inmates could be killed in one hour. Waffen SS commanders wrote back to their superiors in Germany horrified by the brutality and conditions in this and other death camps in the NDH, one of which was devoted entirely for children.

You wanting to establish "truth" about what happened smacks of the same revisionism and denialism the Turkish government engages in when it wants "truth" over the Armenian Genocide. When you have multiple commemorations at Jasenovac because no one with any common decency wants to stand in the same company as Croatia's state-sponsored revisionists and Ustaša apologists like Hasanbegovic, any state official who has the gall to condemn the Simon Wiesenthal Center for pointing out facts you don't like, or even you who goes to Bleiburg along with a bunch of neo-nazis to salute a bunch of dead fascists, it's pretty obvious the "truth" already exists. You just don't want to accept it because your country is awash in nonsensical BS brought on by your mentor "Doctor" Franjo Tudman.

All of you deserve to be punched for the Nazi swine you are.

Smrt fašizmu.

You can’t handle the truth colander. The truth is going to blow your tiny little mind. Beyond horror.

Kolinda, who travels to Bleiburg to honor fallen Ustasha there wants an investigation into the number of people killed by the Ustasha using modern methods. Now that Croatia is a member of the EU and their clergy is trying to get Stepanic canonized, Croatia's leaders are suddenly trying to whitewash their horrific crimes during WWII and rewrite history. As a member of the EU, Croatia is becoming increasingly uncomfortable because the rest of the world is learning of their past crimes. No longer can Croatia hide behind the Yugoslav gag order of Bratsvo I Jedinstvo. Croatia is being exposed for all to see and they don't like it, so now they're trying to rewrite the history books. Too late Kolinda. Dwight, what do you think about this feeble effort?

Croatia acts as if this happened 500 years ago. Up until now and maybe even now there were people who witnessed this. Its well known that even the germans found the camp to be excessively savage. As bad as aushwitz was the killing methods were known to be the most brutal in the ustasha run camp. They croatians still use nationalistic fascist terms from the ww2 period. They have very fond memories of that period. This is why they have always tried to shut down anything to do with the truth about jasenovac.

Funny how those who always want to establish the "truth" about something are the ones most in denial of it.

Well done Grabar-Kitarovic - as long as the right people from both sides are involved in investigating it, then it's a good idea.

To talk about Auschwitz is ridiculous. No one (including the Germans) dispute the numbers involved there. Where Jasenovac is concerned, the figures on both sides are massively far apart.
(Andy UK, 25 April 2018 14:21)

@ andy - of course they are, andy...the people who tell you the numbers are so low...they have to believe it because that's the only way they can go to sleep!
For me as a Christian, I know EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN HISTORY will face God, our book of life will be opened and "accounting" WILL take place!
Oh, if only ONE of these "monsters" could come back and tell their story.....but alas, we live by faith!

Kolinda is a disgrace as a human being and not at all intelligent. Unfortunately she was elected by people who think as she does. It is also unfortunate and disgraceful that Croatia seems to never face reality but only their own propaganda. Sorry, but the world will never forget. Nor will we come to your homeland, buy your products or support you in any way. The only beautiful thing you have (stolen) is Dalmatia, which by history should rule itself and be free from Zagreb. You tried to destroy every Serb, Jew, Roma or righteous Croat. You failed. You will always fail, because your hearts are dark.

Well, Mrs. Kolinda, My grand uncle, the Orthodox priest could testify if he was still there and not murdered in the camp of Jasenovac in 1942. My cousin who was assassinated in Jasenovac, just because her name was Sarah, would most probably like to be here and also testify what was happening in what the Croats call "recreation camp".There is one thing I agree with, and that is that the truth must be brought by the Jewish community, by the Serbian but above all by the Croatian archives, if they exist. The communist regime was hiding the truth for decades in the name of "unity and fraternity", and the Croat Tito, preferred Croats to the Serbs. KGK does not know the truth because in Croatia they never learned the real history. On YouTube when you see the documentary " What the citizen of Zagreb know about Jasenovac", most of the answers are, "nothing", or " I do not care".

More bodies are in the earth in the Kraijana region of Croatia than walk the land.

Jadovno concentration camp, the forerunner of Jasenovac, was near the town of Gospic. In Saravnova Pit, a ravine near the Jadovno camp, and some 30 surrounding pits, thousands were thrown to their deaths by the Croatian authorities.

Stara Gradiška Camp the prefered location for families, downstream from Jasenovac, where mothers and their children were starved and tortured.

Mehino stanje, and the regions of Kordun and Lika where thousands and thousands of men, women and their children were brutally murdered and thrown into pits.

http://www.jadovno.com/arhiva/eng-lat-493/articles/masovna-grobnica-mehino-stanje-9189.html

These victims have no voice, they never had a proper burial and have no headstones to be remembered. Their bones lie in karst caves. These victims need to be remembered, as well.

From Dwight: "The best estimate today of the number of victims at Jasenovac was approximately 120,000 of which half were Serbs."

I love the way Dwight tries to masquerade himself as some sort of reasonable and humane individual when discussing this topic. He makes sure to condemn the Croats for what they did at Jasenovac so as to disarm those on the other side of his position. Then he proceeds to minimize the number of those killed, particularly Serbs, as he did with his above statement. Nice try Dwight, but anyone who has conducted any truthful research can see through your revisionist tactics. And BTW, you still haven't answered my repeated question of how many of your relatives were Ustashe during WWII? with revisionist statements like the one you made above, it's no surprise.

Get real.

The full truth would sicken most humans.

Grotesque.

What you resist persists.

Well done Grabar-Kitarovic - as long as the right people from both sides are involved in investigating it, then it's a good idea.

To talk about Auschwitz is ridiculous. No one (including the Germans) dispute the numbers involved there. Where Jasenovac is concerned, the figures on both sides are massively far apart.

Pavle Durisic was awarded the Iron Cross by Hitler. Belgrade was the first capital city in Europe declared Juden Rein(Free of Jews) by the Nazis.
(mark, 26 April 2018 01:02

Serbia was under the German high command who committed the mass atrocities against the Yugoslav Serbian and Jewish populations. Nedic had no command or control other than Gendermie. On the contrary, the NDH or independent state of Croatia was not occupied but part of the Axis and its troops committed the holocaust on Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Croatians opposed to them. https://www.open.ac.uk/socialsciences/semlin/en/holocaust-in-serbia.php

Croatia was an ally to the German Nazi's , had full control of its troops sending divisions to the Russian front. If you want further proof, Croatia declared war on the US, Serbia never did. Your propaganda fails the test against historical facts.

Durisic was fighting a two front war against the NDH and the Communist Partisans and was tricked and executed by the Ustasa.

Croatia Declaration of war against USA-December 14, 1941

Poglavnik-Pavelic
Independent state of Croatia declares war against the US and Great Britainhttps://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=video+kosovo+1941&qpvt=video+kosovo+1941&view=detail&mid=4A3E643B7631FD11558D4A3E643B7631FD11558D&&FORM=VRDGAR

To the dude below who says 120k.

Get your facts straight

Jasenovac was but one camp. There were 3 others.

Jasenovac is a catch word for all those killed at all the camps.

The USA Museum of the Holocaust says:

"Croat authorities murdered between 320,000 and 340,000 ethnic Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia during the period of Ustaša rule."

Look it up. Open source. Freely available.

Then come back and lets start counting the the hundreds of thousands who were killed in the countryside (as "open season" was declared on Serbs and the "land grab" was put into effect)

The 600k stands because it is legit.

If you don't believe that, then look at the census records?

Why so many fewer Serbs?

Answer please.

Balkan politics, talk so much about what the others did bad in the past, so that people will forget about the bad work of politicians.
I really dislike the fascist that called people to war in the 90s in Belgrad at power but this woman is really trying to put this game to a new level.
Bratstvo i jedinstvo
Smrt fasizmu

Pavle Durisic was awarded the Iron Cross by Hitler. Belgrade was the first capital city in Europe declared Juden Rein(Free of Jews) by the Nazis.

Kolinda, you talk about establishing facts now as if what happened was a thousand years ago.
Nobody else is wanting to investigate WW2 again because the records and photos that were kept are still in good condition and there is no need for guess work. Evidence we have is not flawed or dependent on carbon dating and guess work. Do you hope that Tito had all the evidence of this horror destroyed during his time at the top so now not much can be proven?
Have you perhaps destroyed evidence Croatia had so can ask for this knowing there won't be much to find?

In other words if the rest of the world is satisfied with evidence they have from WW2 why aren't you?
Do you want to go for two out of three?

From Zoran : "In his book "Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945: A Record of Racial and Religious Persecutions and Massacres", author Edmond Paris, a Frenchman with Roman Catholic background, claims 750,000 Serbs and 60,000 Jews were killed in Jasenovac. His book is available online for anyone interested."

Zoran - I'm afraid Dwight will dismiss credible sources like Edmond Paris, Avo Manhattan, Michael Lees, etc. because they are not part of the revisionist authors that he and Kolinda are relying on to rewrite history. Shameful.

Here is a site where they list names of people killed in Jasenovac.
The site has other areas to explore and people associated with it.

There are non Serbs involved just in case people start screaming how it's all Serbian propaganda.

http://www.jasenovac.org/index.php

Since Dwight refuses to answer the question about his relatives' role in WWII, one can only assume that they were Ustashe. Therefore, it is not surprising that he continually tries to minimize Croatia's brutal extermination attempt against Serbs during WWII. Shameful indeed Dwight! How do you live with yourself?

In his book "Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945: A Record of Racial and Religious Persecutions and Massacres", author Edmond Paris, a Frenchman with Roman Catholic background, claims 750,000 Serbs and 60,000 Jews were killed in Jasenovac. His book is available online for anyone interested.

From Dwight: "All old research that says 700,000 Serbs were killed at Jasenovac has turned out to be wrong, the latest information says 100,000-120,000 people were killed with about half of those being Serbs."

Let's see, according to Dwight, if research is old, it must not be accurate. Old research concluded that 6 million Jews were killed during the Holocaust. So, according to Dwight, this must be wrong. What is the accurate number Dwight according to your 'new and reliable' research? Franjo Tudjman's more recent research claims that the number of Serbs killed at Jasenovac was somewhere around 20,000 and that Jews ran the camp. You're in good company Dwight!!

Just as Serb nationalists trawl the internet to find the biggest number possible , there are Croats who do the same to find the smallest number of victims.
I have no doubt that there is some Croat version of @njegos arguing about how Jasenovac was a holiday camp because some Nazi said so.

The best estimate today of the number of victims at Jasenovac was approximately 120,000 of which half were Serbs.

What stood out most about Jasenovac is the cruelty, most of the victims were killed individually or in small groups by hand.
Perversely, this lack of ovens and automated killing prevented the number of victims from being higher.

There is no need for a new inquiry to get to the "truth". It is well known what happened. There will always be a few ignorant Serbs talking of 700,000 Serb victims and there will always be a few ignorant Croats who say it is a hoax. No matter how many inquiries or commissions happen or evidence exists, you will not convince these people.

@njegos claims that 700,000 Serbs were killed in Jasenovac camp, not in nearby camps, not in all camps, not in all of Croatia.
This is clearly not true. Even if you count all camps you will not get that number.

"Croat authorities murdered between 320,000 and 340,000 ethnic Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia during the period of Ustaša rule."
Thank you for agreeing with me

Truth is that many Serbs seem to have no clue how many Serbs were killed or where and pick the largest number they heard or just pull numbers out of their asses.
Those same Serbs that know the least seem to be the ones that talk the most.
Serbia government rightly wants Croatia to be admit the truth and stop revisionism, perhaps Serbia could lead by example.

From Dwight: "You didn't need evidence to invent victim counts for concentration camps so I am not surprised that you invent stories about my family."

First of all, I didn't invent anything. I provided verifiable evidence from credible sources who were German, Jewish, British and American although you incorrectly state I cited only one source which was German. And secondly, I didn't invent anything about your family. For some reason you refuse to answer my question about your family's role during WWII which, based on your revisionist comments lead me to make a logical assumption that they were Ustashe. Feel free to set the record straight and answer the question Dwight.

@Peggy,
I have already been through this with njegos on another thread and published a list of links but he insists that all research is wrong and that we must take one sentence spoken by a Nazi in 1945 as real truth.
Why does he want to use this number? Becasue it is the biggest number that, that is all, no other reason. It is called being willfully ignorant.
Even the Serbian government realised these numbers were impossible 30 years ago.

The Jasenovac Research Institute is a Serb nationalist website. It uses the words Institute and Research to make it sound official, scientific and trustworthy but it is not.
I am sure the 40,000 victims listed are real but I wonder if the list is so short because they decided not to list non-Serb victims.

I suggest you spend time on the Jasenovac Memorial Site. The recent boycotts are because of Croatian government attitude and have nothing to do with the quality research associated with this organisation.It is in no way a Croatian nationalist site.
http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx

Edmond Paris' book is 50 years old. I have not read it but as I said these numbers were belived at the time but subsequently found to be wrong.
njegos, dont pretend to know anything about Edmond Paris, the first time you heard about him was in Zorans message.

Ptolemy has a book that says the Sun revolves around the Earth. It was extremely credible at the time and for many years afterwards, would you believe it or later better research?

Dwight,

I have impression, you just write here to give Zhukov / Zoran / Njegos / Betsy hard time.
I.e. it is trolling.

I am not particularly interested to talk to you, but you may free to explain your goals to the above (provided, they have some interest).

I do not have any to talk or argue with you, just my observation.

@njegos
"other side of his position"

There is no position or other side, there is just facts.

You claim to despise Nazis but you will ignore 70 years of research and instead take the word of one Nazi trying to impress his boss and claim that anyone that disagrees with you is linked with Ustashe .
Are all the scientists, reearchers and Jewish organisations also Ustashe?

When civil war comensed in the 1990ies there where 600.000 Serbs in Croatia.
How man where they in the 1940ties ?

400.000. ?

A Church book from the 1932s Yugoslavia,
which i have read,
listed 1.500.000 ortodoxes in Croatioa in that time,
in an Population of 4.500.000 inhabitants.

SO - ! -

More than ONE MILLION ORTODOXES ARE MISSING.

Arn.Sweden.

@njegos
You didn't need evidence to invent victim counts for concentration camps so I am not surprised that you invent stories about my family.
/no further comment from me/

@Zhukov
"Then why did they only provide “hrvatski” and English versions of the content?"

Are you taking the piss? "hrvatski" means Croatian, Jasenovac is in Croatia. This is the official memorial site. Serbian and Croatian are practically the same language so any Serbian speaker would be able to read it. I presume that you can read English since you are asking the question in English.

It is in no way a Croatian nationalist site.
[link]
(Dwight, 27 April 2018 16:04)

Then why did they only provide “hrvatski” and English versions of the content? Why not Serbian? Perhaps you or other Ustasha apologists may provide an explanation for the warped content on this site?

You claim to despise Nazis but you will ignore 70 years of research and instead take the word of one Nazi trying to impress his boss and claim that anyone that disagrees with you is linked with Ustashe .
Are all the scientists, reearchers and Jewish organisations also Ustashe?
(Dwight, 26 April 2018 19:10)
============================
Can you provide a reference to that research?

@Ataman
Zoran / Njegos deserve a hard time.
All old research that says 700,000 Serbs were killed at Jasenovac has turned out to be wrong, the latest information says 100,000-120,000 people were killed with about half of those being Serbs.
For pointing this out I am called a Ustashe apologist and a Serb hater who must have family in the Ustasha.
I know that I probably will ever change their minds, but it is wrong that people are allowed to spread these lies unchallenged.
If you leave lies unchallenged, others readers may not realize that they are lies.

If you leave lies unchallenged, others readers may not realize that they are lies.
(Dwight, 29 April 2018 17:20)
====================
And what makes you think that you have the truth?

Even the Serbian government realised these numbers were impossible 30 years ago.
========================
Dwight, there was no Serbian government 30 years ago.
It was still a Yugoslav government and a Communist regime which didn't allow anything except the official version to be spoken about.

I suggest you spend time on the Jasenovac Memorial Site. The recent boycotts are because of Croatian government attitude and have nothing to do with the quality research associated with this organisation.It is in no way a Croatian nationalist site.
[link]
(Dwight, 27 April 2018 16:04)
=======================
Wow, hypocritical much?
So a Serbia site is all BS while a Croatian site is to be taken as Gospel.
The first line tells you who established it.
It's not politically motivated at all but any Serbian site is.
Please don't take me for a fool.

I suggest you spend time on the Jasenovac Memorial Site. The recent boycotts are because of Croatian government attitude and have nothing to do with the quality research associated with this organisation.It is in no way a Croatian nationalist site.
[link]
(Dwight, 27 April 2018 16:04)
=========================
I absolutely love your double standards, hypocrisy or bias. Call it whatever you want. This site is developed by Croatia. So anything on a Serbia site is BS but a Croatian site is to be taken like Gospel.
Nice try saying how Croatian is the same as Serbian so we should be able to understand it. That's not the problem and you know it.
Tell me, why should be trust a Croatian site? Because Jasenovac happens to be there so Serbs can't possibly know what happened there?

It is in no way a Croatian nationalist site.
[link]
(Dwight, 27 April 2018 16:04)
========================
The first sentence tells you it is. So if not, please let us know who writes for this site?

Are you taking the piss?
(Dwight, 28 April 2018 17:56)
—-

I’m not “taking” anything. I am reading Dwight’s comments. If you wish to characterize Dwight’s comments as “piss”, or other forms of human excrement, who am I to argue?


Serbian and Croatian are practically the same language so any Serbian speaker would be able to read it. I presume that you can read English since you are asking the question in English.
(Dwight, 28 April 2018 17:56)

——

If Serbian and Croatian are the same language then why not call it Serbian, or the nationalistically neutral Serbo-Croatian? As a blind Ustasha apologist, we know it is difficult for Dwight to even recognize a Croat “nationalist site” or its discriminatory symbols.

I do read English. I don’t call it “American”, or “Australian”, both of which are “practically the same language” as English.

From icji: "It appears that B92 is really impressed by your "Ustashe" analysis..."

What analysis? I asked a simple question, that's all. It's the same question that you continue to dodge also icji. Wonder why? You know what they say, 'birds of a feather...'

Croatia Declaration of war against USA-December 14, 1941

Poglavnik-Pavelic
Independent state of Croatia declares war against the US and Great Britain[link]
(Jugoslavija, 26 April 2018 23:05

Jug, Pretty sure Albania did as well....

@Zhukov
It is a Croatian website, that is why they have articles in Croatian.
If you read English and also refer to the language as Serbian instead of Serbo-Croatian, why do you want a Croatian website to write articles in Serbian?

And BTW, you still haven't answered my repeated question of how many of your relatives were Ustashe during WWII?
(njegos, 26 April 2018 14:44)

It appears that B92 is really impressed by your "Ustashe" analysis since B92 has appointed you as the only authority in B92 forums for determining who is Ustashe lol Congratulations to you and good job B92 for the fine choice !!!

@Ataman
Zoran / Njegos deserve a hard time.
(Dwight, 29 April 2018 17:20)

Is it an axiom, theorem or lemma?

I may 100% agree with you - if you either prove it or explain, why it is an axiom.

Beware, the same time I may firmly state ex-cathedra that the sky is green, with yellow polka dots.


BTW: Zoran - like myself - lived a long time in the West, than he decided to return to (Eastern) Europe. So we essentially eat our own soup we cooked.

For pointing this out I am called a Ustashe apologist and a Serb hater who must have family in the Ustasha.
I know that I probably will ever change their minds, but it is wrong that people are allowed to spread these lies unchallenged.
If you leave lies unchallenged, others readers may not realize that they are lies.
(Dwight, 29 April 2018 17:20)

By the way.

1) Since Rote complained about a million times, a Jew can't be ataman, indeed, OK, I am a "honcho" than.

2) Since I am from Zhukovski area, the word "honcho" fits 100%. Google why! (Hint: where were the MiG-s built and who is a "honcho").

3) "honcho" = "ataman" in Japanese, but a Jew can be a "honcho"... not something very pleasant to пиндосы - америкосы.

4) Back to the topic. If I would just hick up and mention briefly that the number of victims in Srebrenica is not what your boss-pindoss-amerikoss Clintoss (and @sshole-broke) does make up - I am a bad boy.

5) If I would mention that Racak is a hoax, for you I am an Albanian-hater dirty Ruskie (even that I am a "pindoss", too!)

6) But you are free to make up any numbers of Serbian and Jewish victims at Jasenovac and we have to respect and bow to your wisdom!

7) Bad or not, but see, there is a Serbian guy from Canada who plays here on B92 the biggest Albanian. He even posts under the nick of "Aqif Blyta", an Albanian nazi commander from Novi Pazar who successfully did exterminate all Jews from that area. Aren't you that imbecile by a chance?

Well done Grabar-Kitarovic - as long as the right people from both sides are involved in investigating it, then it's a good idea.

To talk about Auschwitz is ridiculous. No one (including the Germans) dispute the numbers involved there. Where Jasenovac is concerned, the figures on both sides are massively far apart.

Just as Serb nationalists trawl the internet to find the biggest number possible , there are Croats who do the same to find the smallest number of victims.
I have no doubt that there is some Croat version of @njegos arguing about how Jasenovac was a holiday camp because some Nazi said so.

The best estimate today of the number of victims at Jasenovac was approximately 120,000 of which half were Serbs.

What stood out most about Jasenovac is the cruelty, most of the victims were killed individually or in small groups by hand.
Perversely, this lack of ovens and automated killing prevented the number of victims from being higher.

There is no need for a new inquiry to get to the "truth". It is well known what happened. There will always be a few ignorant Serbs talking of 700,000 Serb victims and there will always be a few ignorant Croats who say it is a hoax. No matter how many inquiries or commissions happen or evidence exists, you will not convince these people.

@njegos
"other side of his position"

There is no position or other side, there is just facts.

You claim to despise Nazis but you will ignore 70 years of research and instead take the word of one Nazi trying to impress his boss and claim that anyone that disagrees with you is linked with Ustashe .
Are all the scientists, reearchers and Jewish organisations also Ustashe?

Dear Kolinda,

Here's the "truth" about Jasenovac:

It served as the NDH's equivalent to Auschwitz, only without the industrialized mechanisms of mass killing, so everything had to be done by hand. Ustaše took turns competing with each other over how many inmates could be killed in one hour. Waffen SS commanders wrote back to their superiors in Germany horrified by the brutality and conditions in this and other death camps in the NDH, one of which was devoted entirely for children.

You wanting to establish "truth" about what happened smacks of the same revisionism and denialism the Turkish government engages in when it wants "truth" over the Armenian Genocide. When you have multiple commemorations at Jasenovac because no one with any common decency wants to stand in the same company as Croatia's state-sponsored revisionists and Ustaša apologists like Hasanbegovic, any state official who has the gall to condemn the Simon Wiesenthal Center for pointing out facts you don't like, or even you who goes to Bleiburg along with a bunch of neo-nazis to salute a bunch of dead fascists, it's pretty obvious the "truth" already exists. You just don't want to accept it because your country is awash in nonsensical BS brought on by your mentor "Doctor" Franjo Tudman.

All of you deserve to be punched for the Nazi swine you are.

Smrt fašizmu.

Balkan politics, talk so much about what the others did bad in the past, so that people will forget about the bad work of politicians.
I really dislike the fascist that called people to war in the 90s in Belgrad at power but this woman is really trying to put this game to a new level.
Bratstvo i jedinstvo
Smrt fasizmu

@Peggy,
I have already been through this with njegos on another thread and published a list of links but he insists that all research is wrong and that we must take one sentence spoken by a Nazi in 1945 as real truth.
Why does he want to use this number? Becasue it is the biggest number that, that is all, no other reason. It is called being willfully ignorant.
Even the Serbian government realised these numbers were impossible 30 years ago.

The Jasenovac Research Institute is a Serb nationalist website. It uses the words Institute and Research to make it sound official, scientific and trustworthy but it is not.
I am sure the 40,000 victims listed are real but I wonder if the list is so short because they decided not to list non-Serb victims.

I suggest you spend time on the Jasenovac Memorial Site. The recent boycotts are because of Croatian government attitude and have nothing to do with the quality research associated with this organisation.It is in no way a Croatian nationalist site.
http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx

You can’t handle the truth colander. The truth is going to blow your tiny little mind. Beyond horror.

Kolinda, who travels to Bleiburg to honor fallen Ustasha there wants an investigation into the number of people killed by the Ustasha using modern methods. Now that Croatia is a member of the EU and their clergy is trying to get Stepanic canonized, Croatia's leaders are suddenly trying to whitewash their horrific crimes during WWII and rewrite history. As a member of the EU, Croatia is becoming increasingly uncomfortable because the rest of the world is learning of their past crimes. No longer can Croatia hide behind the Yugoslav gag order of Bratsvo I Jedinstvo. Croatia is being exposed for all to see and they don't like it, so now they're trying to rewrite the history books. Too late Kolinda. Dwight, what do you think about this feeble effort?

Pavle Durisic was awarded the Iron Cross by Hitler. Belgrade was the first capital city in Europe declared Juden Rein(Free of Jews) by the Nazis.

Funny how those who always want to establish the "truth" about something are the ones most in denial of it.

Kolinda, you talk about establishing facts now as if what happened was a thousand years ago.
Nobody else is wanting to investigate WW2 again because the records and photos that were kept are still in good condition and there is no need for guess work. Evidence we have is not flawed or dependent on carbon dating and guess work. Do you hope that Tito had all the evidence of this horror destroyed during his time at the top so now not much can be proven?
Have you perhaps destroyed evidence Croatia had so can ask for this knowing there won't be much to find?

In other words if the rest of the world is satisfied with evidence they have from WW2 why aren't you?
Do you want to go for two out of three?

From Dwight: "The best estimate today of the number of victims at Jasenovac was approximately 120,000 of which half were Serbs."

I love the way Dwight tries to masquerade himself as some sort of reasonable and humane individual when discussing this topic. He makes sure to condemn the Croats for what they did at Jasenovac so as to disarm those on the other side of his position. Then he proceeds to minimize the number of those killed, particularly Serbs, as he did with his above statement. Nice try Dwight, but anyone who has conducted any truthful research can see through your revisionist tactics. And BTW, you still haven't answered my repeated question of how many of your relatives were Ustashe during WWII? with revisionist statements like the one you made above, it's no surprise.

@Zhukov
"Then why did they only provide “hrvatski” and English versions of the content?"

Are you taking the piss? "hrvatski" means Croatian, Jasenovac is in Croatia. This is the official memorial site. Serbian and Croatian are practically the same language so any Serbian speaker would be able to read it. I presume that you can read English since you are asking the question in English.

Kolinda is a disgrace as a human being and not at all intelligent. Unfortunately she was elected by people who think as she does. It is also unfortunate and disgraceful that Croatia seems to never face reality but only their own propaganda. Sorry, but the world will never forget. Nor will we come to your homeland, buy your products or support you in any way. The only beautiful thing you have (stolen) is Dalmatia, which by history should rule itself and be free from Zagreb. You tried to destroy every Serb, Jew, Roma or righteous Croat. You failed. You will always fail, because your hearts are dark.

You claim to despise Nazis but you will ignore 70 years of research and instead take the word of one Nazi trying to impress his boss and claim that anyone that disagrees with you is linked with Ustashe .
Are all the scientists, reearchers and Jewish organisations also Ustashe?
(Dwight, 26 April 2018 19:10)
============================
Can you provide a reference to that research?

Since Dwight refuses to answer the question about his relatives' role in WWII, one can only assume that they were Ustashe. Therefore, it is not surprising that he continually tries to minimize Croatia's brutal extermination attempt against Serbs during WWII. Shameful indeed Dwight! How do you live with yourself?

When civil war comensed in the 1990ies there where 600.000 Serbs in Croatia.
How man where they in the 1940ties ?

400.000. ?

A Church book from the 1932s Yugoslavia,
which i have read,
listed 1.500.000 ortodoxes in Croatioa in that time,
in an Population of 4.500.000 inhabitants.

SO - ! -

More than ONE MILLION ORTODOXES ARE MISSING.

Arn.Sweden.

@njegos
You didn't need evidence to invent victim counts for concentration camps so I am not surprised that you invent stories about my family.
/no further comment from me/

From Dwight: "You didn't need evidence to invent victim counts for concentration camps so I am not surprised that you invent stories about my family."

First of all, I didn't invent anything. I provided verifiable evidence from credible sources who were German, Jewish, British and American although you incorrectly state I cited only one source which was German. And secondly, I didn't invent anything about your family. For some reason you refuse to answer my question about your family's role during WWII which, based on your revisionist comments lead me to make a logical assumption that they were Ustashe. Feel free to set the record straight and answer the question Dwight.

Edmond Paris' book is 50 years old. I have not read it but as I said these numbers were belived at the time but subsequently found to be wrong.
njegos, dont pretend to know anything about Edmond Paris, the first time you heard about him was in Zorans message.

Ptolemy has a book that says the Sun revolves around the Earth. It was extremely credible at the time and for many years afterwards, would you believe it or later better research?

Dwight,

I have impression, you just write here to give Zhukov / Zoran / Njegos / Betsy hard time.
I.e. it is trolling.

I am not particularly interested to talk to you, but you may free to explain your goals to the above (provided, they have some interest).

I do not have any to talk or argue with you, just my observation.

@Ataman
Zoran / Njegos deserve a hard time.
All old research that says 700,000 Serbs were killed at Jasenovac has turned out to be wrong, the latest information says 100,000-120,000 people were killed with about half of those being Serbs.
For pointing this out I am called a Ustashe apologist and a Serb hater who must have family in the Ustasha.
I know that I probably will ever change their minds, but it is wrong that people are allowed to spread these lies unchallenged.
If you leave lies unchallenged, others readers may not realize that they are lies.

@Zhukov
It is a Croatian website, that is why they have articles in Croatian.
If you read English and also refer to the language as Serbian instead of Serbo-Croatian, why do you want a Croatian website to write articles in Serbian?

Croatia acts as if this happened 500 years ago. Up until now and maybe even now there were people who witnessed this. Its well known that even the germans found the camp to be excessively savage. As bad as aushwitz was the killing methods were known to be the most brutal in the ustasha run camp. They croatians still use nationalistic fascist terms from the ww2 period. They have very fond memories of that period. This is why they have always tried to shut down anything to do with the truth about jasenovac.

Pavle Durisic was awarded the Iron Cross by Hitler. Belgrade was the first capital city in Europe declared Juden Rein(Free of Jews) by the Nazis.
(mark, 26 April 2018 01:02

Serbia was under the German high command who committed the mass atrocities against the Yugoslav Serbian and Jewish populations. Nedic had no command or control other than Gendermie. On the contrary, the NDH or independent state of Croatia was not occupied but part of the Axis and its troops committed the holocaust on Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and Croatians opposed to them. https://www.open.ac.uk/socialsciences/semlin/en/holocaust-in-serbia.php

Croatia was an ally to the German Nazi's , had full control of its troops sending divisions to the Russian front. If you want further proof, Croatia declared war on the US, Serbia never did. Your propaganda fails the test against historical facts.

Durisic was fighting a two front war against the NDH and the Communist Partisans and was tricked and executed by the Ustasa.

To the dude below who says 120k.

Get your facts straight

Jasenovac was but one camp. There were 3 others.

Jasenovac is a catch word for all those killed at all the camps.

The USA Museum of the Holocaust says:

"Croat authorities murdered between 320,000 and 340,000 ethnic Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia during the period of Ustaša rule."

Look it up. Open source. Freely available.

Then come back and lets start counting the the hundreds of thousands who were killed in the countryside (as "open season" was declared on Serbs and the "land grab" was put into effect)

The 600k stands because it is legit.

If you don't believe that, then look at the census records?

Why so many fewer Serbs?

Answer please.

@njegos claims that 700,000 Serbs were killed in Jasenovac camp, not in nearby camps, not in all camps, not in all of Croatia.
This is clearly not true. Even if you count all camps you will not get that number.

"Croat authorities murdered between 320,000 and 340,000 ethnic Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia during the period of Ustaša rule."
Thank you for agreeing with me

Truth is that many Serbs seem to have no clue how many Serbs were killed or where and pick the largest number they heard or just pull numbers out of their asses.
Those same Serbs that know the least seem to be the ones that talk the most.
Serbia government rightly wants Croatia to be admit the truth and stop revisionism, perhaps Serbia could lead by example.

In his book "Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945: A Record of Racial and Religious Persecutions and Massacres", author Edmond Paris, a Frenchman with Roman Catholic background, claims 750,000 Serbs and 60,000 Jews were killed in Jasenovac. His book is available online for anyone interested.

It is in no way a Croatian nationalist site.
[link]
(Dwight, 27 April 2018 16:04)

Then why did they only provide “hrvatski” and English versions of the content? Why not Serbian? Perhaps you or other Ustasha apologists may provide an explanation for the warped content on this site?

From Zoran : "In his book "Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945: A Record of Racial and Religious Persecutions and Massacres", author Edmond Paris, a Frenchman with Roman Catholic background, claims 750,000 Serbs and 60,000 Jews were killed in Jasenovac. His book is available online for anyone interested."

Zoran - I'm afraid Dwight will dismiss credible sources like Edmond Paris, Avo Manhattan, Michael Lees, etc. because they are not part of the revisionist authors that he and Kolinda are relying on to rewrite history. Shameful.

Get real.

The full truth would sicken most humans.

Grotesque.

What you resist persists.

Here is a site where they list names of people killed in Jasenovac.
The site has other areas to explore and people associated with it.

There are non Serbs involved just in case people start screaming how it's all Serbian propaganda.

http://www.jasenovac.org/index.php

For pointing this out I am called a Ustashe apologist and a Serb hater who must have family in the Ustasha.
I know that I probably will ever change their minds, but it is wrong that people are allowed to spread these lies unchallenged.
If you leave lies unchallenged, others readers may not realize that they are lies.
(Dwight, 29 April 2018 17:20)

By the way.

1) Since Rote complained about a million times, a Jew can't be ataman, indeed, OK, I am a "honcho" than.

2) Since I am from Zhukovski area, the word "honcho" fits 100%. Google why! (Hint: where were the MiG-s built and who is a "honcho").

3) "honcho" = "ataman" in Japanese, but a Jew can be a "honcho"... not something very pleasant to пиндосы - америкосы.

4) Back to the topic. If I would just hick up and mention briefly that the number of victims in Srebrenica is not what your boss-pindoss-amerikoss Clintoss (and @sshole-broke) does make up - I am a bad boy.

5) If I would mention that Racak is a hoax, for you I am an Albanian-hater dirty Ruskie (even that I am a "pindoss", too!)

6) But you are free to make up any numbers of Serbian and Jewish victims at Jasenovac and we have to respect and bow to your wisdom!

7) Bad or not, but see, there is a Serbian guy from Canada who plays here on B92 the biggest Albanian. He even posts under the nick of "Aqif Blyta", an Albanian nazi commander from Novi Pazar who successfully did exterminate all Jews from that area. Aren't you that imbecile by a chance?

And BTW, you still haven't answered my repeated question of how many of your relatives were Ustashe during WWII?
(njegos, 26 April 2018 14:44)

It appears that B92 is really impressed by your "Ustashe" analysis since B92 has appointed you as the only authority in B92 forums for determining who is Ustashe lol Congratulations to you and good job B92 for the fine choice !!!

Well, Mrs. Kolinda, My grand uncle, the Orthodox priest could testify if he was still there and not murdered in the camp of Jasenovac in 1942. My cousin who was assassinated in Jasenovac, just because her name was Sarah, would most probably like to be here and also testify what was happening in what the Croats call "recreation camp".There is one thing I agree with, and that is that the truth must be brought by the Jewish community, by the Serbian but above all by the Croatian archives, if they exist. The communist regime was hiding the truth for decades in the name of "unity and fraternity", and the Croat Tito, preferred Croats to the Serbs. KGK does not know the truth because in Croatia they never learned the real history. On YouTube when you see the documentary " What the citizen of Zagreb know about Jasenovac", most of the answers are, "nothing", or " I do not care".

More bodies are in the earth in the Kraijana region of Croatia than walk the land.

Jadovno concentration camp, the forerunner of Jasenovac, was near the town of Gospic. In Saravnova Pit, a ravine near the Jadovno camp, and some 30 surrounding pits, thousands were thrown to their deaths by the Croatian authorities.

Stara Gradiška Camp the prefered location for families, downstream from Jasenovac, where mothers and their children were starved and tortured.

Mehino stanje, and the regions of Kordun and Lika where thousands and thousands of men, women and their children were brutally murdered and thrown into pits.

http://www.jadovno.com/arhiva/eng-lat-493/articles/masovna-grobnica-mehino-stanje-9189.html

These victims have no voice, they never had a proper burial and have no headstones to be remembered. Their bones lie in karst caves. These victims need to be remembered, as well.

Croatia Declaration of war against USA-December 14, 1941

Poglavnik-Pavelic
Independent state of Croatia declares war against the US and Great Britainhttps://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=video+kosovo+1941&qpvt=video+kosovo+1941&view=detail&mid=4A3E643B7631FD11558D4A3E643B7631FD11558D&&FORM=VRDGAR

If you leave lies unchallenged, others readers may not realize that they are lies.
(Dwight, 29 April 2018 17:20)
====================
And what makes you think that you have the truth?

Well done Grabar-Kitarovic - as long as the right people from both sides are involved in investigating it, then it's a good idea.

To talk about Auschwitz is ridiculous. No one (including the Germans) dispute the numbers involved there. Where Jasenovac is concerned, the figures on both sides are massively far apart.
(Andy UK, 25 April 2018 14:21)

@ andy - of course they are, andy...the people who tell you the numbers are so low...they have to believe it because that's the only way they can go to sleep!
For me as a Christian, I know EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN HISTORY will face God, our book of life will be opened and "accounting" WILL take place!
Oh, if only ONE of these "monsters" could come back and tell their story.....but alas, we live by faith!

Croatia Declaration of war against USA-December 14, 1941

Poglavnik-Pavelic
Independent state of Croatia declares war against the US and Great Britain[link]
(Jugoslavija, 26 April 2018 23:05

Jug, Pretty sure Albania did as well....

@Ataman
Zoran / Njegos deserve a hard time.
(Dwight, 29 April 2018 17:20)

Is it an axiom, theorem or lemma?

I may 100% agree with you - if you either prove it or explain, why it is an axiom.

Beware, the same time I may firmly state ex-cathedra that the sky is green, with yellow polka dots.


BTW: Zoran - like myself - lived a long time in the West, than he decided to return to (Eastern) Europe. So we essentially eat our own soup we cooked.

I suggest you spend time on the Jasenovac Memorial Site. The recent boycotts are because of Croatian government attitude and have nothing to do with the quality research associated with this organisation.It is in no way a Croatian nationalist site.
[link]
(Dwight, 27 April 2018 16:04)
=========================
I absolutely love your double standards, hypocrisy or bias. Call it whatever you want. This site is developed by Croatia. So anything on a Serbia site is BS but a Croatian site is to be taken like Gospel.
Nice try saying how Croatian is the same as Serbian so we should be able to understand it. That's not the problem and you know it.
Tell me, why should be trust a Croatian site? Because Jasenovac happens to be there so Serbs can't possibly know what happened there?

Are you taking the piss?
(Dwight, 28 April 2018 17:56)
—-

I’m not “taking” anything. I am reading Dwight’s comments. If you wish to characterize Dwight’s comments as “piss”, or other forms of human excrement, who am I to argue?


Serbian and Croatian are practically the same language so any Serbian speaker would be able to read it. I presume that you can read English since you are asking the question in English.
(Dwight, 28 April 2018 17:56)

——

If Serbian and Croatian are the same language then why not call it Serbian, or the nationalistically neutral Serbo-Croatian? As a blind Ustasha apologist, we know it is difficult for Dwight to even recognize a Croat “nationalist site” or its discriminatory symbols.

I do read English. I don’t call it “American”, or “Australian”, both of which are “practically the same language” as English.

Even the Serbian government realised these numbers were impossible 30 years ago.
========================
Dwight, there was no Serbian government 30 years ago.
It was still a Yugoslav government and a Communist regime which didn't allow anything except the official version to be spoken about.

I suggest you spend time on the Jasenovac Memorial Site. The recent boycotts are because of Croatian government attitude and have nothing to do with the quality research associated with this organisation.It is in no way a Croatian nationalist site.
[link]
(Dwight, 27 April 2018 16:04)
=======================
Wow, hypocritical much?
So a Serbia site is all BS while a Croatian site is to be taken as Gospel.
The first line tells you who established it.
It's not politically motivated at all but any Serbian site is.
Please don't take me for a fool.

It is in no way a Croatian nationalist site.
[link]
(Dwight, 27 April 2018 16:04)
========================
The first sentence tells you it is. So if not, please let us know who writes for this site?

From icji: "It appears that B92 is really impressed by your "Ustashe" analysis..."

What analysis? I asked a simple question, that's all. It's the same question that you continue to dodge also icji. Wonder why? You know what they say, 'birds of a feather...'

From Dwight: "All old research that says 700,000 Serbs were killed at Jasenovac has turned out to be wrong, the latest information says 100,000-120,000 people were killed with about half of those being Serbs."

Let's see, according to Dwight, if research is old, it must not be accurate. Old research concluded that 6 million Jews were killed during the Holocaust. So, according to Dwight, this must be wrong. What is the accurate number Dwight according to your 'new and reliable' research? Franjo Tudjman's more recent research claims that the number of Serbs killed at Jasenovac was somewhere around 20,000 and that Jews ran the camp. You're in good company Dwight!!