FM Dacic hits back after Croat president's Storm statements
Ivica Dacic on Friday described Croatian president's <a href="http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region.php?yyyy=2016&mm=08&dd=05&nav_id=98830" class="text-link" target= "_blank">statement</a> about <a href="http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes.php?yyyy=2016&mm=08&dd=04&nav_id=98812" class="text-link" target= "_blank">Operation Storm's</a> "ethically clean" nature that had "unburdened Serbs" as "insolence."
Medieval
The Serbs were often called "Triballi" in Byzantine works. The Triballi was an ancient Thracian tribe that inhabited the area of the Morava Valley in southern Serbia. They were last mentioned in the 3rd century. The educated Byzantine authors sought an ancient name for the Serbs, and adopted it as the most likely. It was in use between the 11th and 15th century.
In the Byzantine chronicle Alexiad, covering the 11th century (written in 1148), Anna Komnene mentions the Serbs by the names Sklaveni and Dalmati (Δαλμάται, Dalmatai), with Dalmatia starting from Kosovo and Metohija. John Kinnamos, in his work covering 1118–76, wrote: "the Serbs, a Dalmatic (Dalmatian) tribe" (Σέρβιοι, ε-8-νος Δαλματικών), thus using "Dalmat(ian)s" or "Dalmatic (Dalmatian) people" in the context of the Serbs, and "Dalmatia" in the context of Serbia. There are numerous other, less prominent, instances, poetic for example — Theodore Prodromus, Michael Italicus and the typikon of the Pantokrator monastery, among others.
"Vlachs", referring to pastoralists, was a common exonym for Serbs in the Ottoman Empire and later. The term "Vlachs" was also used for Slavs who shared lifestyle (as shepherds) with Romance peoples (Vlachs); it was used for the Serbs who settled the Military Frontier. Croatian nationalist historiography including Ustashi propaganda claim that the settlers were not Serbs, but Vlachs; that Serbs of Croatia are not Serbs. All South Slavic ethnic groups had some Romance ingredient, although there is no evidence that all or most Serbs in Croatia were of Vlach origin. In Bosnia, Orthodox Christians were called "Vlachs", actually used as a synonym of "Serbs". It was used as a derogatory term, and as a common name for Orthodox Serbs in Catholic lands, and lesser in the Ottoman Empire. Tihomir Đorđević (1868–1944), as did other academics, stressed that the name "Vlach" did not only refer to genuine Vlachs (Romance-speaking people), but also to cattle breeders in general. In a letter of Emperor Ferdinand sent on 6 November 6, 1538 to Croatian ban Petar Keglević, he wrote "Captains and dukes of the Rasians, or the Serbs, or the Vlachs, who are commonly called the Serbs".[13] Serbs that took refuge in the Habsburg Military Frontier were called "Vlachs" by the Croats.
In Dalmatia, terms used for Serbs were: "Morlachs" (Morlaci), "Vlachs" (Vlasi), Rkaći, Arkači, "Greek Dalmatians" (Garčki Dalmatini), or "Greek people".[26] The Catholics used the pejorative word rkać, derived from Venetian, for Orthodox people.[27] The terms Rišćani, Rkaći (Grkaći), Morlaci (crni Vlasi), were used for primitive shepherds, Serbs, who moved in Bukovica, and mountain pastures on the border of Lika (Velebit) and Bosnia (Dinara).
"Schismatics"
Illyri ("Illyrians") and Natio Illyrica ("Illyrian nation"), in official Habsburg documents.[29] The Rescriptum Declaratorium Illyricae Nationis from 1779, declared by Maria Theresa, officially established the position of Serbs and the Serbian Orthodox Church in the Habsburg Monarchy.
The Serb ethnonym is antique. The Serbs are thought to have been first mentioned by Tacitus in 50 AD, Pliny the Elder in 77 AD (Naturalis Historia) and Ptolemy in his Geography 2nd century AD, associated with the Sarmatian tribe of Serboi of the North Caucasus and Lower Volga.[8] One theory is that it is of ultimately Iranian origin.
-Đorđe Branković (1645–1711), in his Chronicles, wrote: "The Serbian name comes from the Savromat name, as Philipp Melanchthon testifies... According to a second version the Serbian name comes from the Sires people who used to live in the Asian part of Scythia. Among the Sires, wool grew in the same way as silk".
Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus (325-391) referred to the Carpathians as "Montes Serrorum" in his works, according to some, connected to the Serbs. In 1878, Henry Hoyle Howorth connected Ptolemy's mention of the town of Serbinum (Σέρβινον), modern Gradiška, Bosnia and Herzegovina, to the Serbs, and also found the Serb ethnonym in the works of Vibius Sequester
Sporoi
In De Bello Gothico Procopius (500-565) uses the name Sporoi as an umbrella term for the Slavic tribes of Antes and Sclaveni, it is however not known whether the Slavs used this designation for themselves or he himself coined the term, it has been theorized however that the name is corruption of the ethnonym Serbs. A large number of linguists agree that 'Sporoi' (Spores) is another name for the Serbs. Sporoi may be identical with 'Sorpi=Serpi=Serbi' and 'Sclavini'
The Serbs have been referred to with several names by other peoples;
“Dalmatians” was another name for Serbs utilized by especially Byzantines, the name clearly predates coming of Slavs.
In the context of referring to the local peoples’ writers describing contemporary events of their time using archaic names, the Byzantine writers most often called the Serbs "Dalmats". This starts with John Kinnamos, when he had wrote in the 12th century in his work "the Serbs, a Dalmatic tribe" (Σέρβιοι, ε-8-νος Δαλματικών), henceforth writing simply "Dalmats" or "Dalmatic people" in the contexts of the Serbs and "Dalmatia" in the context of Serbia. The same practice is continued by Anna Comnena in her "Alexiad" a chronicle of events in the late 11th century.[22] There are numerous other, less prominent, instances, poetic for example - Theodore Prodromus, Michael Italicus and the typikon of the Pantokrator monastery, among others.
22^ Anne Comnene, Alexiade (Regne de L'Empereur Alexis I Comnene 1081-1118) II, pp. l57:3-l6; 1.66: 25-169.
Medieval
The Serbs were often called "Triballi" in Byzantine works. The Triballi was an ancient Thracian tribe that inhabited the area of the Morava Valley in southern Serbia. They were last mentioned in the 3rd century. The educated Byzantine authors sought an ancient name for the Serbs, and adopted it as the most likely. It was in use between the 11th and 15th century.
In the Byzantine chronicle Alexiad, covering the 11th century (written in 1148), Anna Komnene mentions the Serbs by the names Sklaveni and Dalmati (Δαλμάται, Dalmatai), with Dalmatia starting from Kosovo and Metohija. John Kinnamos, in his work covering 1118–76, wrote: "the Serbs, a Dalmatic (Dalmatian) tribe" (Σέρβιοι, ε-8-νος Δαλματικών), thus using "Dalmat(ian)s" or "Dalmatic (Dalmatian) people" in the context of the Serbs, and "Dalmatia" in the context of Serbia. There are numerous other, less prominent, instances, poetic for example — Theodore Prodromus, Michael Italicus and the typikon of the Pantokrator monastery, among others.
@aaa
-On Aug 8th you wrote; Especially since it was orthodox Serbs/Vlachs who migrated. I suppose Statuta Valachorum is a myth?
-I told you earlier that the Serbs were known by a number of names like; Illyrians, Sarmatians, Rasci, Traci, Thracians, Raci, Sloveni. “Triballi”, just like Croats are part of the Serbian nation - the oldest civilization on the planet who which invented writing in Vinca (ancient Hebrew was even written in the first Serbian script)…great book on the topic;
https://www.scribd.com/doc/36592597/Ivo-Vukcevic-Rex-German-or-Um-Populos-Sclavorum
Czechs dont teach their kids this, quite the opposite. Its a folklore chronicle written in rhyming verse, not a serious historical work. All your quote implies is that within 'Serbia' there was another country called 'Croatia' - doesnt state the Croats were descended from Serbs at all. Most scholars and other Czech folklore authors believe that 'white Croatia' and 'white Serbia' (the supposed regions of origin) were located to the east of the Czech Republic, not the south. Nor do they back Dalmil's theory.
De Administrando Imperio which was written several centuries prior proposes different theories of slavs, both Serbs and Croats. Considering it was written before the chronicle of Dalimil and seeing as though the Greeks were in closer proximity to their subjects, I know which one seems more credible. But please tell me, why is your chronicle correct and others are wrong?
gg
Please indicate when I said 'Serbs are a foreign body and Vlachs' - go on, show me where and when
‘ultimate contradiction and stupidity’
You have been basing your ideas on emotion and what you want history to be, rather than fact or how it actually is. You constantly google for examples which match your point of view - and after they have been disproven you try to dig up more, even if it contradicts your previous sources.
‘asking for proof of Serbs being called tribally and I have shown you a number of examples’
I have been asking for proof the Serbs were DESCNEDED from triballi, not what they were called. And you have still not gotten your head around what Im asking.
'19th century Austrian sources 96.18 percent Serb'
Did you actually read your own reference or did you just googl it and read the Krajina Chronicle instead? Take a deep breath and actually read the Austrian census – nice try. 'look at where Dubrovnik is/what kingdom it is part of'
It doesnt say its part of any kingdom - 'Chrobatia' and 'Servia' are just geogrpahic labels, remember? The grey region is listed as slavic inhabited, but doesnt state ethnic groups or ownership. You really look pathetic here - learn how to read a map.
'All Croats who speak Shtovakian are SERBS no question about that'
Wrong. I guess all Serbs who speak the Torlakian dialect are actually Bulgarian.
Keep making your points, I more than happy to minimize them to nothing and make you look more ridiculous than you are :)
The Chronicle alleged that the Slavs originated in the south, the country of Serbs and Croats.[2] It stated that "in the Serbian nation there is a land, known as Croatia; in this country there was a chieftain whose name was Cech."[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_Dalimil
@aaa
-You are taking the nationalist Croat line invented in the 1800s that “the Serbs are a foreign body in Croatia and are Vlachs”…you said it a few times.
-You have shown nothing but the ultimate contradiction and stupidity of Croat nationalists; you have been arguing and asking for proof of Serbs being called “triballi” in ancient times and I have shown you a number of examples and included links to books where it is mentioned. The best example of this is actually you proving my point when all nationalists (like you) Croat/Bosnian Muslim and Albanian call Serbs-Vlachs (indigenous people to the Balkans)! You guys are so stupid that even your insults contradict the point you are trying to make!
-Again take a deep breathe and look at the official census figures; Mid 19th century Austrian sources did not find any Croats in Dalmatia which was listed as 96.18 percent Serb (see Joseph Hain, Handbuch der statistic des osterreichischen Kaiserstaats, vol 2, Vienna 1852).
-Take a good look at where Dubrovnik is here; http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/europe_charlemagne_814.htm and tell me what it says as to what kingdom it is part of? Again a classic case of more typical Croat lies “it doesn’t say Serbia”…you look pathetic here really…
-All Croats who speak Shtovakian are SERBS no question about that
-You have proven only how stupid your point are – all have been minimized to nothing
Its clear you have a serious comprehension problem. I will ask you for the last time:
Prove that Serbs were descended from Triballi.
No-one cares what names they were called. If you provide another source that only refers to whatever other groups called them and nothing that indicates what I am asking you, its proof you have nothing and have been lying or delusional the whole time.
amazing how serbs are both "settlers" and a foreign body in the balkans for nationalist croats and muslims in bosnia but are also "vlachs" who are indigenous people to the balkans! so settlers and indigenous at the same time! sickos!
(gg, 10 August 2016 02:03)
Both Croats and Serbs settled the area - no one is calling them a foregin body or indegenous. Not sure how you came up with that gem
Vlach is a term for either a romance-language speaking person in the Balkans, which later was adopted as a general term for an orthodox person.
Keep on getting frustrated over nothing, no one cares
gg : For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos:
Handle with care chronology by Niketas Choniat especially when it comes to Andronicus I. He hates Andronicus and on one page he writes that people loved him because he was justful while later on he says that the Emperor spoke Scythian and and wore their cloths and had their Barbarian manners. Most likely books by Niketas Choniat are not original and were “adopted” in 17-18 centuries when our history was rewritten.
One more thing. In the times you are mentioning I don’t think that the difference between future Serbs and future Russians was seen. Most likely Serbi and Siabri were the same tribe that lived north-west of Moscow. It included Belorussia, part of Poland, Prussia where Luzitskie Serbi still live ect.
Most likely Mehmed the Conqueror aka Mehmet II Yavuz aka Prophet Mohammad was Russian KLniaz/khan Tverskoy. One out of the 3 crowns on the Russian Coat of Arms belongs to them. Second small – to the Cherkassy Kniazia also known as Mamelukes. Finally the bigger crown symbolizes the Vladimirsko-Suzdal Kniazia to which Murad I killed in Kosovo belonged.
Stefan Dušan 'the Mighty' was Siabr i.e. from the ruling Vladimir-Suzdal Ruricovici Dynasty. Because he was a Njemanici i.e. from the place where the Siabri lived on Neman river. + Because he was Uros i.e. Russian + for many other reasons I am limited to talk about now.
You take quotes out of context and get upset over nothing. Please explain where I have been a nationalist
'typical Croat'
Nationalist and derogatory remark from you, you just keep proving my points for me :)
'show me one thing i have said that is not backed up/prove quotes is posted were wrong'
I have been doing that constantly, go back through the posts and see for yourself.
'I have shown plenty of examples of ancient sources calling serbs 'triballi'
Yes but I asked you to provide proof of Serbs being descedend from Triballi, which you have still failed to do
'historical census in Dalmatia'
I provided you with a demographic map made before your census which proves you have been lying and trying (poorly) to twist data. I think its you that is in denial about facts
'the map show no Croats in Dubrovnik or Split'
Doesn't show Serbs there either
'Serbia was east of the Drina nationalist rhetoric'
But your map clearly shows 'Servia' being east of the Drina in 814.
'you guys are sell outs, speak Serbain, shtokavian'
So know we are not Serbs anymore, rather our 'own kind?' Make up your mind. The shtovakian dialect is one of three Croats speak which form the Serbo-Croatian language
'and you so pathetically try to debate me'
Its not a debate when you are always wrong and I am pointing out your flaws - thats a lecture.
@aaa
amazing how serbs are both "settlers" and a foreign body in the balkans for nationalist croats and muslims in bosnia but are also "vlachs" who are indigenous people to the balkans! so settlers and indigenous at the same time! sickos!
@aaa
I’m the nationalist? Hahaha right you bring up derogatory and racist terms to call serbs vlachs and I am the nationalist? Typical croat. Show me one thing that I said that is not backed up. Yes I have shown you plenty of examples of ancient sources calling serbs “triballi”. Prove the quotes I posted wrong...both about that and also about the historical census in Dalmatia. You cannot as they are facts. Again you are just looking at something and totally lying…the map shows no Croats in Dubrovnik or Split…does it? Just yes or no? The only funny thing here is your original claim that “Serbia was east of the drina”…that is the typical Croat ultra nationalist rhetoric established in the 1800s…you guys are nothing but sell outs towards your own kind…you even speak the SERBIAN language, Stokavian dialect….and you try so pathetically to debate me….prove my posts and sources wrong…you can not…
Please stick to what you know :) lol
(factman, 9 August 2016 16:05)
Absolutely... and this is what I know so far
factman, 8 August 2016 13:54 claims that Croatia's exports to Serbia represent 5% of Croatia's economy
factman, 8 August 2016 20:00 claims that Croatia exports to Serbia are over 700M
So, since the size of Croatia's economy is 48732M, then 700/48732 is about 1%, not 5%. So, based on the math that is taught is most of the world, either (i) you are are a liar or (ii) you did not even attend elementary school. Feel free to choose which of the two options above applies lol.
But don't pick up a fight with facts; they are very stubborn :)
'You have only proven how weak the croat history is with your last post…you were crushed with my arguments… '
Dont think so, if anything its you that has been constantly losing argument after argument. You keep presenting new pieces of information - most of which contradict your previous examples. Its quite clear you go along with nationalist rhetoric without actually understanding or reading things properly for that matter. Youve only got yourself to blame for the whole you've been digging.
No sorry, I asked you to prove how Serbs are descended from Triballi, not copy and paste the wikipedia section which is completely off topic.
'I never disputed that there were a people called “chorobati” that lived in the area outlined in the map. This has nothing to do with the catholic and orthodox serbs living in all of dalmatia, Slavonia and the area you call Krajina'
Exactly, its relating to Croats living in dalmatia, slavonia and krajina. Thanks for proving my point yet again! I guess the 'servians' highlighted in the map have nothing to do with orthodox Croats living in what is now Serbia either :) . But please, explain what the geographic names and 'chorbati' refer to according to your 'sources', this should be good for a laugh
@aaa
You have only proven how weak the croat history is with your last post…you were crushed with my arguments…
-I never disputed that there were a people called “chorobati” that lived in the area outlined in the map. This has nothing to do with the catholic and orthodox serbs living in all of dalmatia, Slavonia and the area you call Krajina.
-first time Pagania was mentioned; In the 10th-century De Administrando Imperio (DAI) of Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (r. 913–959), the tribe is called Paganoi (Greek: Παγανοὶ, Παγανοἰ), and their polity Pagania (Παγανὶα, Παγανἰα), in Greek, while also noting that in Latin they are called Arentanoi (Αρεντανοἰ) and their polity Arenta (Αρεντα).[1] They are described as Serbs, "descended from the unbaptized Serbs ... The Pagani are so called because they did not accept baptism at the time when all the Serbs were baptized."
@aaa
The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs. Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian". For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) .. or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father." or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.
In the 15th century, a coat of arms of "Tribalia", depicting a wild boar with an arrow pierced through the head (see Boars in heraldry), appeared in the supposed Coat of Arms of Emperor Stefan Dušan 'the Mighty' (r. 1331–1355).[26] The motif had, in 1415, been used as the Coat of Arms of the Serbian Despotate and is recalled in one of Stefan Lazarević's personal Seals, according to the paper Сабор у Констанци.[27] Pavao Ritter Vitezović also depicts "Triballia" with the same motif in 1701[28] and Hristofor Zhefarovich again in 1741.[29] With the beginning of the First Serbian Uprising, the Parliament adopted the Serbian Coat of Arms in 1805, their official seal depicted the heraldic emblems of Serbia and Tribalia.
You shouldn't wade into deep waters that you are unfamiliar with :) lol
(factman, 9 August 2016 03:38)
Absolutely, I have no intention to wade into the deep waters of your lies. Few people, if any, are familiar with your "fact" that 5% of Croatia's economy depends on exports to Serbia. Based on the 700M number that YOU provided, that is about 1% of the Croatia's economy. So the 5% that you originally wrote was a pure lie!
----------
Great to see that you are learning. After realising that Serbia boycotting Made in Croatia goods would not have any significant impact on Croatia, you now expanded to Croatian-owned stores. Something you did not clarify though... Should Serbs also boycott Serbia Made goods sold in Croatian-owned stores? What's going to be the impact on Croatia's and Serbia's economy if they do it? Or, as usual, you first state your wishes and then you try (and fail) to find facts supporting what you wrote.
My advice to you if you don't want to be exposed as a lier again and again is that you should check the facts first and them make recommendations, not the other way around :)
Obviously you still havent learned how to read a map and are possibly blind yourself. The map shows chrobati living within charlemagne's area and the bordering areas outside of it.
There is much debate about whether the Narentines are Serb or Croat, your wikipedia link proves nothing. The area they inhabited is outside of Krajina so why did you switch the topic to this?
Triballi were a Thracian tribe that lived in Serbia and Bulgaria - this is from the same wikipedia article. The name was synonomus with Serbs since both groups lived in the area. Please provide evidence that Serbs descended from Triballi.
'the serbs ruled from knin to siberia...'
'Thracians, Triballi, Rasians, Illyrians... All were Serbs who the Vatican has tried to destroy..'
Haha, have you been getting your history lessons from rote?
'The word “Croat” was unknown...'
The rest of the world seems to disagree with you, including Serb scholars.
'The Hungarian census from 1840 listed 504,000 serbs in croatia-slavonia alone'
Which accounts for about 31.4 % of the total population. So you confirmed Serbs were in the minority, thanks.
‘Austrian census and hardly any Serbs in Dalmatia’.
A demographic map of Austria from 1855 can be found on the 'Austiran Empire' wiki page - this is before your census. More Croats than Serbs in the empire and hardly any Serbs in Dalmatia.
The word “Croat” was unknown in many parts of today’s Croatia let alone Bosnia until the “Illyrian awakening”. The Hungarian census from 1840 listed 504,000 serbs in croatia-slavonia alone. There were 1.6 million Serbs “of both orthodox and roman catholic faith” and just under 1.3 million Croats in monarchy as a whole (see Elek Fenyes, Magyarorszag statiszikaibirtokviszonyi es topographiai szempontbol. II 2. Pest 1859).
Mid 19th century Austrian sources did not find any Croats in Dalmatia which was listed as 96.18 percent Serb (see Joseph Hain, Handbuch der statistic des osterreichischen Kaiserstaats, vol 2, Vienna 1852).
The 1857 census counted 1.5 million Serbs and 1.4 miilion croats in the monarchy as a whole and hardly and Croats in Dalmatia which was listed as 88.9 percent Serb.
From icj: "I resort to hard facts. Just because facts don't match your delusional thoughts, that is not my fault. I can't change reality to match what you have in your head, mate!"
But you did try to change reality icj, don't you remember? Allow me to refresh your selective memory. You cut and pasted portions of my post and re-posted them out of context to change the meaning, remember? You also dodged several questions that I asked you over and over again, remember? You were exposed as a deceitful coward then as you are being exposed again with factman. Now, before you get the urge to respond to me with your typical meaningless reply, come back with the answers to my several questions that have been asked of you repeatedly. Failure to do so will render you as another Serb-hating coward who has learned his/her history from the historical revisionist Ustasha handbook. Bye, bye.
@aaa
obviously you are ether blind or just trying to be slick. The map clearly shows the area where chorobati live being part of Charles' empire and not a croat state…also where did I say that orthodox serbs were not encouraged to settle amongst catholic Serbs in what is todays Croatia? I was addressing your point about “Serbia being east of the Drina”.
Of course now the insults like Vlach and Morlachs kick in, typical Croat racist. You prove my point now as the Vlachs/Serbs are part of the indigenous inhabitants of the Balkans who and were known by various names like Thracians, Triballi, Rasians, Illyrians and also by the racist name you mentioned. All were Serbs who the Vatican has tried to destroy for over a thousand years. Croats existed long ago but were pushed into Europe by the Turks and that’s why you have many in Central Europe (just like many Serbs were forced out of Kosovo by the Turks).
@aaa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narentines
The DAI speaks of the Narentines as descended from the "unbaptized Serbs" that settled Dalmatia under the protection of Byzantine Emperor Heraclius (r. 610–641), and that the land of the Narentines had earlier been devastated by the Avars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi
The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs
the serbs ruled from knin to siberia and its great culture spread from the danube region....just google the serb alphabet; Vinca script and compare it to ancient hebrew and etruscan;
http://www.ancientscripts.com/old_hebrew.html
5% of someones economy is significant.
(factman, 8 August 2016 13:54)
Read carefully. Croatia's exports to Serbia represent 5,5% of Croatia's EXPORTS not of Croatia's ECONOMY. Exports and Economy are different things mate.
But if you want to do the math, Croatia's exports are about 23% of Croatia's economy, which means that if Serbia were to follow your advice it could have a negative impact on about 1% of Croatia's economy. I'm sure you'll call that "significant", too. Delusions don't die easily lol
(icj1, 8 August 2016 15:41)
You read carefully since you're not too good at English.
1. Croatia exports to Serbia are over 700M (freely available on the internet).
(factman, 8 August 2016 20:00)
Yup, and that's about 1% of Croatia's economy as I wrote, not 5% as you wrote. In English (that you claim to understand so well), 5% is not the same thing as 1% :)
----------
I have noticed that you are unable to intellectually discuss ideas with resorting to defamation (a trait of Communist era politics).
(factman, 8 August 2016 20:00)
I resort to hard facts. Just because facts don't match your delusional thoughts, that is not my fault. I can't change reality to match what you have in your head, mate!
----------
Now go run back into school
(factman, 8 August 2016 20:00)
The factman's school that has failed to even teach it's sturns how to correctly perform a % calculation?!
Then please provide said 'countless examples' - your map seems to prove otherwise. Especially regarding Knin
Burum was a Roman town, what does that have to do with Serbs? Similarly, I did google triballi and they weren't a Serb tribe :) Pagania and Travunia were inhabited by 'slavs' according to google. Regardless, it still disproves your ideas of Krajina or Knin being Serbian
'yes serb families were encouraged by the austrians to settle'
So you admit that Serbs migrated during Austrian administration, thanks again for proving my point :). Its more like a weak attempt by you to manipulate history. Funny, no mention of Catholic Serbs in Croatian or Austrian records at the time. Must be a conspiracy, right? Especially since it was orthodox Serbs/Vlachs who migrated. I suppose Statuta Valachorum is a myth?
'and there was no such thing as "Croatia" as an empire/state/kingdom or whatever we wish to call it but only the Austro empire there at the time'
But the map you provided proves otherwise :) Fun question, where did Serbs flee to when the Bulgarians invaded?
'so what is your point then?'
Let me break it down for you:
1. you came up with a bogus theory
2. you provided a map which worked against you
3. you attempted to save yourself by providing a fake article.
My point is you are wrong and have only been proving my point the whole time. The real question is, what is YOUR point?
You read carefully since you're not too good at English.
1. Croatia exports to Serbia are over 700M (freely available on the internet).
2. The point is to capture a growing markets before they become saturated with other people's goods. So while $700M may seem small to you.... it is still $700M. And more importantly in a growing economy that $00M will only get bigger and bigger (as people have more disposable income)
You wouldn't knw any of this because you were likely Communist educated well versed in the failed economics of Hegel and Marx and Tito (and free-market capitalism is something that you need to still study up on).
I have noticed that you are unable to intellectually discuss ideas with resorting to defamation (a trait of Communist era politics).
@aaa
there are countless examples of dalmatia and all of bosnia being referred to as serb land and inhabited by serbs since ancient times...just google pagania, travunia or even north of bosnia you find the ancient city of serbinum...the ancient city of Burnum (Knin) was inhabited by the Triballi...google them to see who these people were...
fact is that when we get back to your original post of "the serb migration" to the krajina and that "serbia was east of the drina", it just shows the weak attempt by croats to manipulate history...yes serb families were encouraged by the austrians to settle with catholic serbs in the austrian empire and in return had to fight against the turks...and there was no such thing as "Croatia" as an empire/state/kingdom or whatever we wish to call it but only the Austro empire there at the time...so what is your point then?
The article in the link you forwarded regarding Croats originating from Serbs has been debunked as an April fools joke. Sorry to burst your bubble. Alas, there were several Serb migrations which Serbian scholars and public alike agree on.
I wasnt implying that Serbs or any other Slavic groups were slaves. Take a look at your map again - it clearly says 'slaves' however the assumption is that its referring to 'Slavs' (I thought you understood that, I wasnt trying to cause offense there).
The original map you posted contradicts the newer 'article' you forwarded. Going back to the original map, the geographic titles of 'Chrobatia' and 'Servia' relate to not long after the Croats and Serbs arrived in the area. The only assumptions one can draw from your map (and these are assumptions at best, since we are basing it on a map only - which you provided), is:
1. the names relate to the states formed by the Serbs and Croats, or
2. the names relate to the ethnic/tribal groups living in those regions.
Either way, it only proves my point. Although Im sure you can find a new map which suits your 'philosophy'/political view.
@joni
"Although the Illyrian tribe of the Albanoi and the place Albanopolis could be located near Krujë, nothing proves a relation of this tribe to the Albanians, whose name appears for the first time in the 11th century in Byzantine sources"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#Arguments_against_Illyrian_origin
show me just 1 albanian source from prior to the 19th century that claims this ancient past or that mentions the illyrian connection? there is none as the albanains only started to make this claim AFTER they saw the croats and serbs do so during the illyrian movement;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement
@aaa
it is clear that not only was where todays knin and all of bosnia serbian on the map but it is also clear that the only real migration of serbs happened in the 10th century as you can see here;
http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2013/07/zagreb-in-a-panic-scientifically-proven-that-croats-are-descendants-of-serbs-2687972.html
show me any evidence or study that shows serbs being "Slaves"...this is an umbrella term invented by the anglo saxon (vienna/berlin) axis used to demonize all slavs since medieval times by the germanic tribes...some choose to fight this evil (like the serbs and russians) and some choose (like the croats) to be the foot soldiers and servants the most evil axis the world have ever known...
Encourage the people to Boycott Croatian goods.
They lose a market of 8M they are reliant upon.
Kick their economic ass and you'll see how quick they change their tune.
Made in Croatia = Leave it on the shelf.
(factman, 6 August 2016 19:13)
Only 5,5% of Made in Croatia exports go to Serbia. So it does not appear the 8M market you are talking about is that relevant to Croatia's economy and poor Serbia can't do much to kick Croatia's economic add. I totally understand that it is frustrating for Serbia to be so powerless, but hey, it's Serbia's fault for being such a failed country.
But, by all means, feel free to preach to Serbia your delusions lol I'm sure there are people there who love them!
(icj1, 6 August 2016 23:29)
5% of someones economy is significant.
(factman, 8 August 2016 13:54)
Read carefully. Croatia's exports to Serbia represent 5,5% of Croatia's EXPORTS not of Croatia's ECONOMY. Exports and Economy are different things mate.
But if you want to do the math, Croatia's exports are about 23% of Croatia's economy, which means that if Serbia were to follow your advice it could have a negative impact on about 1% of Croatia's economy. I'm sure you'll call that "significant", too. Delusions don't die easily lol
The only powerless party here is Croatia.
(factman, 8 August 2016 13:54)
Powerless about what?! It is Serbia that is huffing and puffing almost daily instead of actually doing something since it is so "powerful" according to you lol
gg : so did the continent of europe according to you only come into existence in the 1200s which is the first time the word Albanian or Albania was even mention in the Balkans?
Albanians and Europe are two different issues. Strange as it is they are connected though indirectly. All because the main reason why our history was wiped off was to clean memory of the White Horde aka the Great Tartaria. It enabled the Russian governors of the European provinces explain why they became Kings in 17 century. So they took Hordian history and attached it to the events that happened in Britain, France ect. I can tell you how it was if you ask. Thus they tried to wipe off word ALBANIAN/WHITE but many toponymal has survived.
This word had often been used to mark the territories of the White Horde that since late 14 century became the main of the Hordes. It happened during the war against the Golden Horde that lasted since 1370 till 1415. Kosovska Bitka was one of the battles of that war. Anyways word Albanian never had ethnical meaning but showed the military power to which some people belonged. Since 14 century all Balkan peoples were Albanians as it was the strong point of the Whites.
your "point" was that serbia was east of the drink which is a lie...todays bosnia and croatia were serbia before belgrade was
also take a better look at the map...knin is clearly in serb hands centuries before the "military frontier" even existed....
(gg, 7 August 2016 21:30)
My initial point was at the time of Serb migration to the military frontier, Serbia was east of the Drina.
Looking at your map, it shows the grey area in the Balkans corresponding to slavic tribes (actually it says 'slaves'), with the geographic region of 'Serbia' highlighted - the bulk of which is across the Drina. Whereas 'Chrobatia' extends into modern Bosnia. So no, the bulk of today's Croatia and Bosnia appear to be Croatian more than anything.
Knin is not 'clearly' in Serbian hands. On the contrary, it is quite close to the border of Charlemagne's empire and the lands inhabited by Slavic tribes. Furthermore, the map does not give evidence regarding the dominant ethnicity living in Knin, nor that is Serbian administrated.
Putting the Croatian ambassador into a wheelbarrow and getting his charge d'affaires to push quickly in the direction of that village called Zagreb is what could be called "ethically" cleaning up Serbia. Setting fire to that building he/she used to live in would help to get his/her president a feel for their version of morality too. You could call it Operation Asswipe as it would be getting rid of that sh..
Google "most guns per capita" its no surprise USA is number 1, have a look at who is number 2.
All your media is about Croatia, Croatia, Croatia.
Serbia is running training missions with Russia on the boarder, then you want to lecture Croatia on friendly neighborhood actions.
Do you really expect people think Serbias bid to enter the EU is serious?
I hope it is and I hope they get out of this paranoid state they are in.
@rote
"there was no europe in 1814"????? first of all my maps from 814 and it was Europe at the Death of Charlemagne (a map widley available in any university for many years) ....so did the continent of europe according to you only come into existence in the 1200s which is the first time the word Albanian or Albania was even mention in the Balkans?
gg : @azirbaijan //// since the late 1800s due to albanian aggression with support from your ottoman muslim turk occupier brothers. ////////// @aaa take a look at where serbia was in 814
There were many Albanias worldwide and the one in Azerbaijan had nothing to do with the Shqiptars. Those were different Albanias as well as the one in Albany USA. ///// Yes things changed for worse during Tanzimat Period in the Ottomania after the Slavic Mamelukes were massacred in Cairo in 1811 and then the Slavic Yanissary were massacred in 1926. The new Sultan laid in the dog’s position in front of Britain and even changed the traditional cloths of the Sultans. But I found no clashes between Serbs and the Shqiptars when you both were inside the Empire. ////// Finally there was no Europe in 1814 so the map is false. There were no states nor grammar to know something of the time you mentioned.
AgRONio : “you lost the war against Cratia just you need to admit in wars serbia are loosers.”
It was the biggest mistake Slobo has done. Otherwise the Bosnian Serbs’ Army could quite destroy the Croats even without aid from Mainland Serbia. It was a great mistake to make the US a friend. Russia has almost betrayed him so he aggravated the situation to end his life in Hague.
Azir : But not in SerbiSTAN. The Ayatollah Chetniks continue ...
1/ Serbistan is not an insult because it shows how far the great Slavic Empire of 14-17 centuries reached. STAN is a Slavic word meaning PLACE. So Aghanistan was PLACE OF AFGHAN where AFGHAN was the name of the Slavic Cossack ataman/voevoda/khan. This way other hordes were marked worldwide including the USA like Can Orda = Canada, Amer-i Can = America, Calif Orda = Califordia = California, Khan Zas = Kansas ect. Thus Kirgiz (CRKZ =Tsar Cossaks) or Tibetians or Turkmens or Hindu or Uzbeks (Urus-bek) were just names of the Hordes or their commanders. Before 1936 Kazakhstan was called Cossackstan but stalin changed one letter.
2/ Chetniks saved Europe from the Nazi Skanderbes Waffen SS so it’s the pride of the Serbs.
3/ Ayatollah though has nothing to do to the Serbs is also a positive word. Those are Islamic fundamentalists who rebelled against their Shah-in-Shah Mohammad Reza Pehlevi. This man was a US puppet like all the peoples around Serbia are but his father was a Russian Cossack Colonel … Read Russian Wikipedia.
You lose a potential market of 4M that you are not reliant upon.
Serbs are not very smart.
Kick their economic ass and you'll see how quick they change their tune.
Made in Croatia = Leave it on the shelf.
(factman, 6 August 2016 19:13)
Only 5,5% of Made in Croatia exports go to Serbia. So it does not appear the 8M market you are talking about is that relevant to Croatia's economy and poor Serbia can't do much to kick Croatia's economic add. I totally understand that it is frustrating for Serbia to be so powerless, but hey, it's Serbia's fault for being such a failed country.
But, by all means, feel free to preach to Serbia your delusions lol I'm sure there are people there who love them!
@aaa
take a look at where serbia was in 814 before you say "serbia was east of the drina";
http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/europe_charlemagne_814.htm
What is all of this obsession in the Serbian media with Croatia. Of the 7 main stories 5 are about Croatia.
I come here to read about what is happening in Serbia but all I get is this obsession with Croatia.
Look at todays Croatian media, stories about their upcoming elections, number of cruise ships in Zadar, cost of food on the coast, and a car accident, barely a mention about Serbia.
It seems to me that the Serbian politicians want to keep Croatia in the news and want people to forget about the crime , poverty and corruption and general dissatisfaction with life in Serbia today. They want someone to blame and Croatia is an easy target rather than looking in the mirror.
Croatians have moved on and could care less about what is happening in Serbia, while it seems Serbia has an obsession with Croatia. It is about time Serbs start looking inward and fixing their own problems rather then being distracted with all of this hype from the politicians about fear of Croatia.
If you keep living in 1941 or 1995, you standard of living will remain there while the rest of the region and world move on.
Kosovo ,Serbs demolished your terrorists but you cried to the world for help.....Kosovo is serb lands not yours....and yet it was like 10,000 serbs against 300,000 lol........
bonsnia ,Serbs demolished everyone and again there was 400,000+ against 100,000 serbs lol and again they all cried to the world ,.....and thought they won.....but RS is here......
Croatia again the serbs defenders of krajina wiped the croats to the floor and yet it was 60,000 Serbs against over 300,000 lol and again cried to the world ......Serbs never attacked anyone but defended what was theirs
krajina
Kosovo
their part of Bosnia ......
but you know who were the biggest criers but act tough online it was YOU Albanians lol
so no serbs never lost any wars.......just stopped.....so think before you speak.....
(yea right, 5 August 2016 19:26
You are right but if we albanians have the army you serbs have you probably be writing comennts from your mother Russia ok
These idiot Croats are what you expect. But, I hold you idiots - Serbian politians to blame because of you sputidity, nativity, foolishness in not considering your people's wishs and needs and you Andre to you enemies, us , eu, shiptari, hravati, and any anti Serbian being...hold your heads in shame. You're a disgrace.
s
Serbia has lost its power outside Serbia ever since the collapse of YU. Croatia will do what it wants and when it wants. It will not allow a country of a lower class who aren't part of any organisation what to do. Thise that lose wars will always make excuses and attempt to blame others as they can't accept the loss. The Best thing for Serbs to do us join stinking Russia and leave the E.U for those countries with at least half a brain.
no they were not ,krajina is Serb lands ,Croatia was Zagreb and surroundings.....we defended those lands while croats ran to Austria from fear in history.....move along little boy aaa........see yea and go learn some real history and not ustasa ones.....
(aaa is a joker, 5 August 2016 19:18)
No sorry mate, I can see you are confused. They are Croat lands which Serbs that were fleeing from the Turks were allowed to settle. Serbia was east of the Drina.
There were as many Serbs as Croats within the military frontier. However, most, if not all, of the battles against the Turks happened before the Serb migration - by the time Serbia had capitulated and your population was beginning to move. It was Croats that kept the Ottoman empire at bay, the Serbs arrived after all the heavy fighting had been done.
I suggest you learn some real history and not the chetnik variety. Move along troll.
azir can not debate me...he runs from my posts like albanians typically do...he is calling nato to fight for him...pathetic really as all you albaniacs can do is pimp out your sisters around europe so you can pay nato back your debt;
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=131011
https://euobserver.com/investigations/131964
no sorry, i forgot to say you are also great at selling drugs; https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/mar/13/balkans
Word SLOVENIA was mentioned on the maps of 14-15 centuries. Lands north of Veliki Novgorod (now Yaroslavl) were marked so. We have two stances on how word Slavs (Славяне) appeared. Some derive it from word СЛОВО i.e. PEOPLE OF THE WORD ( «В начале было Слово и Cлово было Бог») while the others explain it from word СЛАВА i.e. “people who praise God”.
I personally can’t make my choice. Partly because not only СЛОВЕНЕ & СЛАВЯНЕ were used in old documents but also other compromise versions like СЛОВЯНЕ. Sometimes one author (Radishev) could use 2 versions of the name in the same text.
Anyways when we talk about the period of 13-17 centuries I believe that using this word is correct for all Slavic peoples. Just because none of the nations was not formed yet. First nations started to form in the 17-18 centuries but most of them were really formed in 19-20 only.
Word Russian was first used in the current meaning only since Peter I (the German) while during the killed Peter I (Russian) people here were called either as Rusici or the Tartars.
Toponymal Serb/Serbians was used much earlier but it can also be a reflection of the Russian word СЯБРЫ/SJABRI used in the north-west Russian regions like Litva (Byelorussia) , Pskov (Prussia and Baltic), Novgorod.
So many things remain unclear ! Say we all know that in 19 century the Oldenbugs ruled Europe but we also know that the mediaeval name of Oldenburg town was Старгород!
Its called Slovenia, not Slovania! If you leave your goat herding duties in Kosovo and actually travel to Slovenia you'll realize there are more serbs than you could count. In a 2002 census, 38,964 people of Slovenia declared Serb ethnicity, corresponding to 1.98% of the total population, making them the largest ethnic minority in the country. By the way, why didn't you albanians get rid of all the serbs? Don't demand others to do what you don't have the ability to do. You may dream of a serb-free balkans but soon we'll be all over the place.
Ignorant Dacic once was Milosevic's student of evil must understand in a civilized work normal people make mistakes, admit guilt ,receive justice , pay their dues to society and MOVE ON.
But not in SerbiSTAN.
The Ayatollah Chetniks continue to insists on destabilizing the Balkans with a master plan of the world .
Slovania is at peace because close to zero serb cancer infection.
The International Community must develop a De-Nazification National Program to make delusional serb society understand normal people don't act like that.
Serbian inat is the greatest threat to regional if not global peace and stability.
Serbia must be isolated, held acccountable of her criminality and be liberated of all non serbs currently occupied.
Serbs were only unburdened by not having to live in a fascist state after 1995, and by not having to be submitted to official Croatian racism and apartheid. While 200,000 Serbs left in three days, more than 200,000 Croats have left that failing state since.
Azir,
your thinking maybe would be acceptable if Serbs were allowed to protect integrity of Serbia against "unruly minority" and expel them all. Why would anybody be sympathetic to them?
Is that what you are advocating?
Well, when the HDZ is already the butt of jokes and stands to get clobbered in the Fall elections to the SDS, you might as well make the best of what time is left in your lame duck session by saying the dumbest things possible to be remembered by.
No. They were Croatian lands where Serbs happened to be living.
(aaa, 5 August 2016 18:04) no they were not ,krajina is Serb lands ,Croatia was Zagreb and surroundings.....we defended those lands while croats ran to Austria from fear in history.....move along little boy aaa........see yea and go learn some real history and not ustasa ones.....
@azirbaijan
also your lie of milosevic trying to create a "greater serbia" has been debunked long ago! http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/01/the-exoneration-of-milosevic-the-ictys-surprise-ruling/
the world is sick of muslim albanianc lies! this is not 1999 anymore! cekamo....
When will you learn? Enough is enough. You can't even do anything right with the country you have, but you want to go stealing other peoples lands.
(Captain Kosova, 5 August 2016 18:33) what wars did Serbia lose ? we won all even wiped out your Turkish daddy ........
Kosovo ,Serbs demolished your terrorists but you cried to the world for help.....Kosovo is serb lands not yours....and yet it was like 10,000 serbs against 300,000 lol........
bonsnia ,Serbs demolished everyone and again there was 400,000+ against 100,000 serbs lol and again they all cried to the world ,.....and thought they won.....but RS is here......
Croatia again the serbs defenders of krajina wiped the croats to the floor and yet it was 60,000 Serbs against over 300,000 lol and again cried to the world ......Serbs never attacked anyone but defended what was theirs
krajina
Kosovo
their part of Bosnia ......
but you know who were the biggest criers but act tough online it was YOU Albanians lol
so no serbs never lost any wars.......just stopped.....so think before you speak.....
@azirbaijan
"After World War 2 the Germans having failed in their aggression were rightfully relocated out of all the victim's countries"
look up the "demographic history of kosovo" and you will see a systematic expulsion of the serbs since the late 1800s due to albanian aggression with support from your ottoman muslim turk occupier brothers. with your logic albanians should be relocated back to asia/azerbaijan which is where you came to europe from...
to compare the yugoslav civil war to your ally hitlers quest for world dominance is truly shocking...for anyone interested in finding out more about the worlds worst killers ever just google; SS Skenderbeg or SS Handzar divisions...Muslim Nazi SS divisions....
its time for krajina to come back and have full autonomy and join RS in Bosnia and all connect to Serbia......everyone are fed up with these little ustasas.....feel bad for the normal croats.....serbs should rebuild krajina back....croats cried for the serbs to come and defend them in history in krajina because croats are reality weak.......those are serb lands not Croatian......this should be on the table......
(krajina is serb lands, 5 August 2016 17:38)
You forgot to claim piece of Ohio state and part of Chicago.
These statements are useless. Hit them where it hurts. Ban Croatian exports and nationalize Меrkаtоr, Аgrоkоr, Rоdа, Аtlаntik grupа, Frikоm, Sоkо Štаrk, Diјаmаnt and more. There's nothing they can do about it. There is very little Serbian business in Croatia and all Serbian property has been stolen already.
You can try to hit as much as you want mr. dacic.. but this will Not help you.... the balkan today is bad just because of his past , all the wars you made and your mentallity that how it seems : you never wanna change it.. you can not sit on two chairs mister ... if you want us not to block your way to Eu.. you have to change your milloshevic mentallity toward balkan countries like croatia bosnia kosovo and other west balkan . or you keep doing like now.. and stay where you are..
Statements like that is precisely why the international community is fed up with Serbia. Serbia gets destroyed left and right in every war that they start in their "Greater Serbia Project" and STILL Serbs talk about taking their neighbors land and "connecting" it to Serbia.
When will you learn? Enough is enough. You can't even do anything right with the country you have, but you want to go stealing other peoples lands.
Serbs returned to, fled to or expelled to Serbia proper after 500 years because of Milosevic's politics and greater Serbian ideals by Serb nationalists and crazies in the 80s and 90s. Now you have a great serbia. Stop crying Dacic.
its time for krajina to come back and have full autonomy and join RS in Bosnia and all connect to Serbia......everyone are fed up with these little ustasas.....feel bad for the normal croats.....serbs should rebuild krajina back....croats cried for the serbs to come and defend them in history in krajina because croats are reality weak.......those are serb lands not Croatian......this should be on the table......
Statements like that is precisely why the international community is fed up with Serbia. Serbia gets destroyed left and right in every war that they start in their "Greater Serbia Project" and STILL Serbs talk about taking their neighbors land and "connecting" it to Serbia.
When will you learn? Enough is enough. You can't even do anything right with the country you have, but you want to go stealing other peoples lands.
its time for krajina to come back and have full autonomy and join RS in Bosnia and all connect to Serbia......everyone are fed up with these little ustasas.....feel bad for the normal croats.....serbs should rebuild krajina back....croats cried for the serbs to come and defend them in history in krajina because croats are reality weak.......those are serb lands not Croatian......this should be on the table......
Serbs returned to, fled to or expelled to Serbia proper after 500 years because of Milosevic's politics and greater Serbian ideals by Serb nationalists and crazies in the 80s and 90s. Now you have a great serbia. Stop crying Dacic.
its time for krajina to come back and have full autonomy and join RS in Bosnia and all connect to Serbia......everyone are fed up with these little ustasas.....feel bad for the normal croats.....serbs should rebuild krajina back....croats cried for the serbs to come and defend them in history in krajina because croats are reality weak.......those are serb lands not Croatian......this should be on the table......
(krajina is serb lands, 5 August 2016 17:38)
You forgot to claim piece of Ohio state and part of Chicago.
You can try to hit as much as you want mr. dacic.. but this will Not help you.... the balkan today is bad just because of his past , all the wars you made and your mentallity that how it seems : you never wanna change it.. you can not sit on two chairs mister ... if you want us not to block your way to Eu.. you have to change your milloshevic mentallity toward balkan countries like croatia bosnia kosovo and other west balkan . or you keep doing like now.. and stay where you are..
no they were not ,krajina is Serb lands ,Croatia was Zagreb and surroundings.....we defended those lands while croats ran to Austria from fear in history.....move along little boy aaa........see yea and go learn some real history and not ustasa ones.....
(aaa is a joker, 5 August 2016 19:18)
No sorry mate, I can see you are confused. They are Croat lands which Serbs that were fleeing from the Turks were allowed to settle. Serbia was east of the Drina.
There were as many Serbs as Croats within the military frontier. However, most, if not all, of the battles against the Turks happened before the Serb migration - by the time Serbia had capitulated and your population was beginning to move. It was Croats that kept the Ottoman empire at bay, the Serbs arrived after all the heavy fighting had been done.
I suggest you learn some real history and not the chetnik variety. Move along troll.
These statements are useless. Hit them where it hurts. Ban Croatian exports and nationalize Меrkаtоr, Аgrоkоr, Rоdа, Аtlаntik grupа, Frikоm, Sоkо Štаrk, Diјаmаnt and more. There's nothing they can do about it. There is very little Serbian business in Croatia and all Serbian property has been stolen already.
Serbia has lost its power outside Serbia ever since the collapse of YU. Croatia will do what it wants and when it wants. It will not allow a country of a lower class who aren't part of any organisation what to do. Thise that lose wars will always make excuses and attempt to blame others as they can't accept the loss. The Best thing for Serbs to do us join stinking Russia and leave the E.U for those countries with at least half a brain.
@azirbaijan
"After World War 2 the Germans having failed in their aggression were rightfully relocated out of all the victim's countries"
look up the "demographic history of kosovo" and you will see a systematic expulsion of the serbs since the late 1800s due to albanian aggression with support from your ottoman muslim turk occupier brothers. with your logic albanians should be relocated back to asia/azerbaijan which is where you came to europe from...
to compare the yugoslav civil war to your ally hitlers quest for world dominance is truly shocking...for anyone interested in finding out more about the worlds worst killers ever just google; SS Skenderbeg or SS Handzar divisions...Muslim Nazi SS divisions....
What is all of this obsession in the Serbian media with Croatia. Of the 7 main stories 5 are about Croatia.
I come here to read about what is happening in Serbia but all I get is this obsession with Croatia.
Look at todays Croatian media, stories about their upcoming elections, number of cruise ships in Zadar, cost of food on the coast, and a car accident, barely a mention about Serbia.
It seems to me that the Serbian politicians want to keep Croatia in the news and want people to forget about the crime , poverty and corruption and general dissatisfaction with life in Serbia today. They want someone to blame and Croatia is an easy target rather than looking in the mirror.
Croatians have moved on and could care less about what is happening in Serbia, while it seems Serbia has an obsession with Croatia. It is about time Serbs start looking inward and fixing their own problems rather then being distracted with all of this hype from the politicians about fear of Croatia.
If you keep living in 1941 or 1995, you standard of living will remain there while the rest of the region and world move on.
Its called Slovenia, not Slovania! If you leave your goat herding duties in Kosovo and actually travel to Slovenia you'll realize there are more serbs than you could count. In a 2002 census, 38,964 people of Slovenia declared Serb ethnicity, corresponding to 1.98% of the total population, making them the largest ethnic minority in the country. By the way, why didn't you albanians get rid of all the serbs? Don't demand others to do what you don't have the ability to do. You may dream of a serb-free balkans but soon we'll be all over the place.
When will you learn? Enough is enough. You can't even do anything right with the country you have, but you want to go stealing other peoples lands.
(Captain Kosova, 5 August 2016 18:33) what wars did Serbia lose ? we won all even wiped out your Turkish daddy ........
Kosovo ,Serbs demolished your terrorists but you cried to the world for help.....Kosovo is serb lands not yours....and yet it was like 10,000 serbs against 300,000 lol........
bonsnia ,Serbs demolished everyone and again there was 400,000+ against 100,000 serbs lol and again they all cried to the world ,.....and thought they won.....but RS is here......
Croatia again the serbs defenders of krajina wiped the croats to the floor and yet it was 60,000 Serbs against over 300,000 lol and again cried to the world ......Serbs never attacked anyone but defended what was theirs
krajina
Kosovo
their part of Bosnia ......
but you know who were the biggest criers but act tough online it was YOU Albanians lol
so no serbs never lost any wars.......just stopped.....so think before you speak.....
Ignorant Dacic once was Milosevic's student of evil must understand in a civilized work normal people make mistakes, admit guilt ,receive justice , pay their dues to society and MOVE ON.
But not in SerbiSTAN.
The Ayatollah Chetniks continue to insists on destabilizing the Balkans with a master plan of the world .
Slovania is at peace because close to zero serb cancer infection.
The International Community must develop a De-Nazification National Program to make delusional serb society understand normal people don't act like that.
Serbian inat is the greatest threat to regional if not global peace and stability.
Serbia must be isolated, held acccountable of her criminality and be liberated of all non serbs currently occupied.
@azirbaijan
also your lie of milosevic trying to create a "greater serbia" has been debunked long ago! http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/01/the-exoneration-of-milosevic-the-ictys-surprise-ruling/
the world is sick of muslim albanianc lies! this is not 1999 anymore! cekamo....
azir can not debate me...he runs from my posts like albanians typically do...he is calling nato to fight for him...pathetic really as all you albaniacs can do is pimp out your sisters around europe so you can pay nato back your debt;
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=131011
https://euobserver.com/investigations/131964
no sorry, i forgot to say you are also great at selling drugs; https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/mar/13/balkans
your "point" was that serbia was east of the drink which is a lie...todays bosnia and croatia were serbia before belgrade was
also take a better look at the map...knin is clearly in serb hands centuries before the "military frontier" even existed....
(gg, 7 August 2016 21:30)
My initial point was at the time of Serb migration to the military frontier, Serbia was east of the Drina.
Looking at your map, it shows the grey area in the Balkans corresponding to slavic tribes (actually it says 'slaves'), with the geographic region of 'Serbia' highlighted - the bulk of which is across the Drina. Whereas 'Chrobatia' extends into modern Bosnia. So no, the bulk of today's Croatia and Bosnia appear to be Croatian more than anything.
Knin is not 'clearly' in Serbian hands. On the contrary, it is quite close to the border of Charlemagne's empire and the lands inhabited by Slavic tribes. Furthermore, the map does not give evidence regarding the dominant ethnicity living in Knin, nor that is Serbian administrated.
You take quotes out of context and get upset over nothing. Please explain where I have been a nationalist
'typical Croat'
Nationalist and derogatory remark from you, you just keep proving my points for me :)
'show me one thing i have said that is not backed up/prove quotes is posted were wrong'
I have been doing that constantly, go back through the posts and see for yourself.
'I have shown plenty of examples of ancient sources calling serbs 'triballi'
Yes but I asked you to provide proof of Serbs being descedend from Triballi, which you have still failed to do
'historical census in Dalmatia'
I provided you with a demographic map made before your census which proves you have been lying and trying (poorly) to twist data. I think its you that is in denial about facts
'the map show no Croats in Dubrovnik or Split'
Doesn't show Serbs there either
'Serbia was east of the Drina nationalist rhetoric'
But your map clearly shows 'Servia' being east of the Drina in 814.
'you guys are sell outs, speak Serbain, shtokavian'
So know we are not Serbs anymore, rather our 'own kind?' Make up your mind. The shtovakian dialect is one of three Croats speak which form the Serbo-Croatian language
'and you so pathetically try to debate me'
Its not a debate when you are always wrong and I am pointing out your flaws - thats a lecture.
Its clear you have a serious comprehension problem. I will ask you for the last time:
Prove that Serbs were descended from Triballi.
No-one cares what names they were called. If you provide another source that only refers to whatever other groups called them and nothing that indicates what I am asking you, its proof you have nothing and have been lying or delusional the whole time.
Azir,
your thinking maybe would be acceptable if Serbs were allowed to protect integrity of Serbia against "unruly minority" and expel them all. Why would anybody be sympathetic to them?
Is that what you are advocating?
Serbs were only unburdened by not having to live in a fascist state after 1995, and by not having to be submitted to official Croatian racism and apartheid. While 200,000 Serbs left in three days, more than 200,000 Croats have left that failing state since.
Obviously you still havent learned how to read a map and are possibly blind yourself. The map shows chrobati living within charlemagne's area and the bordering areas outside of it.
There is much debate about whether the Narentines are Serb or Croat, your wikipedia link proves nothing. The area they inhabited is outside of Krajina so why did you switch the topic to this?
Triballi were a Thracian tribe that lived in Serbia and Bulgaria - this is from the same wikipedia article. The name was synonomus with Serbs since both groups lived in the area. Please provide evidence that Serbs descended from Triballi.
'the serbs ruled from knin to siberia...'
'Thracians, Triballi, Rasians, Illyrians... All were Serbs who the Vatican has tried to destroy..'
Haha, have you been getting your history lessons from rote?
'The word “Croat” was unknown...'
The rest of the world seems to disagree with you, including Serb scholars.
'The Hungarian census from 1840 listed 504,000 serbs in croatia-slavonia alone'
Which accounts for about 31.4 % of the total population. So you confirmed Serbs were in the minority, thanks.
‘Austrian census and hardly any Serbs in Dalmatia’.
A demographic map of Austria from 1855 can be found on the 'Austiran Empire' wiki page - this is before your census. More Croats than Serbs in the empire and hardly any Serbs in Dalmatia.
amazing how serbs are both "settlers" and a foreign body in the balkans for nationalist croats and muslims in bosnia but are also "vlachs" who are indigenous people to the balkans! so settlers and indigenous at the same time! sickos!
(gg, 10 August 2016 02:03)
Both Croats and Serbs settled the area - no one is calling them a foregin body or indegenous. Not sure how you came up with that gem
Vlach is a term for either a romance-language speaking person in the Balkans, which later was adopted as a general term for an orthodox person.
Keep on getting frustrated over nothing, no one cares
No. They were Croatian lands where Serbs happened to be living.
(aaa, 5 August 2016 18:04) no they were not ,krajina is Serb lands ,Croatia was Zagreb and surroundings.....we defended those lands while croats ran to Austria from fear in history.....move along little boy aaa........see yea and go learn some real history and not ustasa ones.....
Well, when the HDZ is already the butt of jokes and stands to get clobbered in the Fall elections to the SDS, you might as well make the best of what time is left in your lame duck session by saying the dumbest things possible to be remembered by.
These idiot Croats are what you expect. But, I hold you idiots - Serbian politians to blame because of you sputidity, nativity, foolishness in not considering your people's wishs and needs and you Andre to you enemies, us , eu, shiptari, hravati, and any anti Serbian being...hold your heads in shame. You're a disgrace.
s
You lose a potential market of 4M that you are not reliant upon.
Serbs are not very smart.
Kick their economic ass and you'll see how quick they change their tune.
Made in Croatia = Leave it on the shelf.
(factman, 6 August 2016 19:13)
Only 5,5% of Made in Croatia exports go to Serbia. So it does not appear the 8M market you are talking about is that relevant to Croatia's economy and poor Serbia can't do much to kick Croatia's economic add. I totally understand that it is frustrating for Serbia to be so powerless, but hey, it's Serbia's fault for being such a failed country.
But, by all means, feel free to preach to Serbia your delusions lol I'm sure there are people there who love them!
The article in the link you forwarded regarding Croats originating from Serbs has been debunked as an April fools joke. Sorry to burst your bubble. Alas, there were several Serb migrations which Serbian scholars and public alike agree on.
I wasnt implying that Serbs or any other Slavic groups were slaves. Take a look at your map again - it clearly says 'slaves' however the assumption is that its referring to 'Slavs' (I thought you understood that, I wasnt trying to cause offense there).
The original map you posted contradicts the newer 'article' you forwarded. Going back to the original map, the geographic titles of 'Chrobatia' and 'Servia' relate to not long after the Croats and Serbs arrived in the area. The only assumptions one can draw from your map (and these are assumptions at best, since we are basing it on a map only - which you provided), is:
1. the names relate to the states formed by the Serbs and Croats, or
2. the names relate to the ethnic/tribal groups living in those regions.
Either way, it only proves my point. Although Im sure you can find a new map which suits your 'philosophy'/political view.
Word SLOVENIA was mentioned on the maps of 14-15 centuries. Lands north of Veliki Novgorod (now Yaroslavl) were marked so. We have two stances on how word Slavs (Славяне) appeared. Some derive it from word СЛОВО i.e. PEOPLE OF THE WORD ( «В начале было Слово и Cлово было Бог») while the others explain it from word СЛАВА i.e. “people who praise God”.
I personally can’t make my choice. Partly because not only СЛОВЕНЕ & СЛАВЯНЕ were used in old documents but also other compromise versions like СЛОВЯНЕ. Sometimes one author (Radishev) could use 2 versions of the name in the same text.
Anyways when we talk about the period of 13-17 centuries I believe that using this word is correct for all Slavic peoples. Just because none of the nations was not formed yet. First nations started to form in the 17-18 centuries but most of them were really formed in 19-20 only.
Word Russian was first used in the current meaning only since Peter I (the German) while during the killed Peter I (Russian) people here were called either as Rusici or the Tartars.
Toponymal Serb/Serbians was used much earlier but it can also be a reflection of the Russian word СЯБРЫ/SJABRI used in the north-west Russian regions like Litva (Byelorussia) , Pskov (Prussia and Baltic), Novgorod.
So many things remain unclear ! Say we all know that in 19 century the Oldenbugs ruled Europe but we also know that the mediaeval name of Oldenburg town was Старгород!
Then please provide said 'countless examples' - your map seems to prove otherwise. Especially regarding Knin
Burum was a Roman town, what does that have to do with Serbs? Similarly, I did google triballi and they weren't a Serb tribe :) Pagania and Travunia were inhabited by 'slavs' according to google. Regardless, it still disproves your ideas of Krajina or Knin being Serbian
'yes serb families were encouraged by the austrians to settle'
So you admit that Serbs migrated during Austrian administration, thanks again for proving my point :). Its more like a weak attempt by you to manipulate history. Funny, no mention of Catholic Serbs in Croatian or Austrian records at the time. Must be a conspiracy, right? Especially since it was orthodox Serbs/Vlachs who migrated. I suppose Statuta Valachorum is a myth?
'and there was no such thing as "Croatia" as an empire/state/kingdom or whatever we wish to call it but only the Austro empire there at the time'
But the map you provided proves otherwise :) Fun question, where did Serbs flee to when the Bulgarians invaded?
'so what is your point then?'
Let me break it down for you:
1. you came up with a bogus theory
2. you provided a map which worked against you
3. you attempted to save yourself by providing a fake article.
My point is you are wrong and have only been proving my point the whole time. The real question is, what is YOUR point?
Azir : But not in SerbiSTAN. The Ayatollah Chetniks continue ...
1/ Serbistan is not an insult because it shows how far the great Slavic Empire of 14-17 centuries reached. STAN is a Slavic word meaning PLACE. So Aghanistan was PLACE OF AFGHAN where AFGHAN was the name of the Slavic Cossack ataman/voevoda/khan. This way other hordes were marked worldwide including the USA like Can Orda = Canada, Amer-i Can = America, Calif Orda = Califordia = California, Khan Zas = Kansas ect. Thus Kirgiz (CRKZ =Tsar Cossaks) or Tibetians or Turkmens or Hindu or Uzbeks (Urus-bek) were just names of the Hordes or their commanders. Before 1936 Kazakhstan was called Cossackstan but stalin changed one letter.
2/ Chetniks saved Europe from the Nazi Skanderbes Waffen SS so it’s the pride of the Serbs.
3/ Ayatollah though has nothing to do to the Serbs is also a positive word. Those are Islamic fundamentalists who rebelled against their Shah-in-Shah Mohammad Reza Pehlevi. This man was a US puppet like all the peoples around Serbia are but his father was a Russian Cossack Colonel … Read Russian Wikipedia.
Kosovo ,Serbs demolished your terrorists but you cried to the world for help.....Kosovo is serb lands not yours....and yet it was like 10,000 serbs against 300,000 lol........
bonsnia ,Serbs demolished everyone and again there was 400,000+ against 100,000 serbs lol and again they all cried to the world ,.....and thought they won.....but RS is here......
Croatia again the serbs defenders of krajina wiped the croats to the floor and yet it was 60,000 Serbs against over 300,000 lol and again cried to the world ......Serbs never attacked anyone but defended what was theirs
krajina
Kosovo
their part of Bosnia ......
but you know who were the biggest criers but act tough online it was YOU Albanians lol
so no serbs never lost any wars.......just stopped.....so think before you speak.....
(yea right, 5 August 2016 19:26
You are right but if we albanians have the army you serbs have you probably be writing comennts from your mother Russia ok
'You have only proven how weak the croat history is with your last post…you were crushed with my arguments… '
Dont think so, if anything its you that has been constantly losing argument after argument. You keep presenting new pieces of information - most of which contradict your previous examples. Its quite clear you go along with nationalist rhetoric without actually understanding or reading things properly for that matter. Youve only got yourself to blame for the whole you've been digging.
No sorry, I asked you to prove how Serbs are descended from Triballi, not copy and paste the wikipedia section which is completely off topic.
'I never disputed that there were a people called “chorobati” that lived in the area outlined in the map. This has nothing to do with the catholic and orthodox serbs living in all of dalmatia, Slavonia and the area you call Krajina'
Exactly, its relating to Croats living in dalmatia, slavonia and krajina. Thanks for proving my point yet again! I guess the 'servians' highlighted in the map have nothing to do with orthodox Croats living in what is now Serbia either :) . But please, explain what the geographic names and 'chorbati' refer to according to your 'sources', this should be good for a laugh
gg
Please indicate when I said 'Serbs are a foreign body and Vlachs' - go on, show me where and when
‘ultimate contradiction and stupidity’
You have been basing your ideas on emotion and what you want history to be, rather than fact or how it actually is. You constantly google for examples which match your point of view - and after they have been disproven you try to dig up more, even if it contradicts your previous sources.
‘asking for proof of Serbs being called tribally and I have shown you a number of examples’
I have been asking for proof the Serbs were DESCNEDED from triballi, not what they were called. And you have still not gotten your head around what Im asking.
'19th century Austrian sources 96.18 percent Serb'
Did you actually read your own reference or did you just googl it and read the Krajina Chronicle instead? Take a deep breath and actually read the Austrian census – nice try. 'look at where Dubrovnik is/what kingdom it is part of'
It doesnt say its part of any kingdom - 'Chrobatia' and 'Servia' are just geogrpahic labels, remember? The grey region is listed as slavic inhabited, but doesnt state ethnic groups or ownership. You really look pathetic here - learn how to read a map.
'All Croats who speak Shtovakian are SERBS no question about that'
Wrong. I guess all Serbs who speak the Torlakian dialect are actually Bulgarian.
Keep making your points, I more than happy to minimize them to nothing and make you look more ridiculous than you are :)
Google "most guns per capita" its no surprise USA is number 1, have a look at who is number 2.
All your media is about Croatia, Croatia, Croatia.
Serbia is running training missions with Russia on the boarder, then you want to lecture Croatia on friendly neighborhood actions.
Do you really expect people think Serbias bid to enter the EU is serious?
I hope it is and I hope they get out of this paranoid state they are in.
Czechs dont teach their kids this, quite the opposite. Its a folklore chronicle written in rhyming verse, not a serious historical work. All your quote implies is that within 'Serbia' there was another country called 'Croatia' - doesnt state the Croats were descended from Serbs at all. Most scholars and other Czech folklore authors believe that 'white Croatia' and 'white Serbia' (the supposed regions of origin) were located to the east of the Czech Republic, not the south. Nor do they back Dalmil's theory.
De Administrando Imperio which was written several centuries prior proposes different theories of slavs, both Serbs and Croats. Considering it was written before the chronicle of Dalimil and seeing as though the Greeks were in closer proximity to their subjects, I know which one seems more credible. But please tell me, why is your chronicle correct and others are wrong?
@aaa
take a look at where serbia was in 814 before you say "serbia was east of the drina";
http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/europe_charlemagne_814.htm
gg : @azirbaijan //// since the late 1800s due to albanian aggression with support from your ottoman muslim turk occupier brothers. ////////// @aaa take a look at where serbia was in 814
There were many Albanias worldwide and the one in Azerbaijan had nothing to do with the Shqiptars. Those were different Albanias as well as the one in Albany USA. ///// Yes things changed for worse during Tanzimat Period in the Ottomania after the Slavic Mamelukes were massacred in Cairo in 1811 and then the Slavic Yanissary were massacred in 1926. The new Sultan laid in the dog’s position in front of Britain and even changed the traditional cloths of the Sultans. But I found no clashes between Serbs and the Shqiptars when you both were inside the Empire. ////// Finally there was no Europe in 1814 so the map is false. There were no states nor grammar to know something of the time you mentioned.
AgRONio : “you lost the war against Cratia just you need to admit in wars serbia are loosers.”
It was the biggest mistake Slobo has done. Otherwise the Bosnian Serbs’ Army could quite destroy the Croats even without aid from Mainland Serbia. It was a great mistake to make the US a friend. Russia has almost betrayed him so he aggravated the situation to end his life in Hague.
@rote
"there was no europe in 1814"????? first of all my maps from 814 and it was Europe at the Death of Charlemagne (a map widley available in any university for many years) ....so did the continent of europe according to you only come into existence in the 1200s which is the first time the word Albanian or Albania was even mention in the Balkans?
Encourage the people to Boycott Croatian goods.
They lose a market of 8M they are reliant upon.
Kick their economic ass and you'll see how quick they change their tune.
Made in Croatia = Leave it on the shelf.
(factman, 6 August 2016 19:13)
Only 5,5% of Made in Croatia exports go to Serbia. So it does not appear the 8M market you are talking about is that relevant to Croatia's economy and poor Serbia can't do much to kick Croatia's economic add. I totally understand that it is frustrating for Serbia to be so powerless, but hey, it's Serbia's fault for being such a failed country.
But, by all means, feel free to preach to Serbia your delusions lol I'm sure there are people there who love them!
(icj1, 6 August 2016 23:29)
5% of someones economy is significant.
(factman, 8 August 2016 13:54)
Read carefully. Croatia's exports to Serbia represent 5,5% of Croatia's EXPORTS not of Croatia's ECONOMY. Exports and Economy are different things mate.
But if you want to do the math, Croatia's exports are about 23% of Croatia's economy, which means that if Serbia were to follow your advice it could have a negative impact on about 1% of Croatia's economy. I'm sure you'll call that "significant", too. Delusions don't die easily lol
The only powerless party here is Croatia.
(factman, 8 August 2016 13:54)
Powerless about what?! It is Serbia that is huffing and puffing almost daily instead of actually doing something since it is so "powerful" according to you lol
@joni
"Although the Illyrian tribe of the Albanoi and the place Albanopolis could be located near Krujë, nothing proves a relation of this tribe to the Albanians, whose name appears for the first time in the 11th century in Byzantine sources"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#Arguments_against_Illyrian_origin
show me just 1 albanian source from prior to the 19th century that claims this ancient past or that mentions the illyrian connection? there is none as the albanains only started to make this claim AFTER they saw the croats and serbs do so during the illyrian movement;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement
From icj: "I resort to hard facts. Just because facts don't match your delusional thoughts, that is not my fault. I can't change reality to match what you have in your head, mate!"
But you did try to change reality icj, don't you remember? Allow me to refresh your selective memory. You cut and pasted portions of my post and re-posted them out of context to change the meaning, remember? You also dodged several questions that I asked you over and over again, remember? You were exposed as a deceitful coward then as you are being exposed again with factman. Now, before you get the urge to respond to me with your typical meaningless reply, come back with the answers to my several questions that have been asked of you repeatedly. Failure to do so will render you as another Serb-hating coward who has learned his/her history from the historical revisionist Ustasha handbook. Bye, bye.
Putting the Croatian ambassador into a wheelbarrow and getting his charge d'affaires to push quickly in the direction of that village called Zagreb is what could be called "ethically" cleaning up Serbia. Setting fire to that building he/she used to live in would help to get his/her president a feel for their version of morality too. You could call it Operation Asswipe as it would be getting rid of that sh..
gg : so did the continent of europe according to you only come into existence in the 1200s which is the first time the word Albanian or Albania was even mention in the Balkans?
Albanians and Europe are two different issues. Strange as it is they are connected though indirectly. All because the main reason why our history was wiped off was to clean memory of the White Horde aka the Great Tartaria. It enabled the Russian governors of the European provinces explain why they became Kings in 17 century. So they took Hordian history and attached it to the events that happened in Britain, France ect. I can tell you how it was if you ask. Thus they tried to wipe off word ALBANIAN/WHITE but many toponymal has survived.
This word had often been used to mark the territories of the White Horde that since late 14 century became the main of the Hordes. It happened during the war against the Golden Horde that lasted since 1370 till 1415. Kosovska Bitka was one of the battles of that war. Anyways word Albanian never had ethnical meaning but showed the military power to which some people belonged. Since 14 century all Balkan peoples were Albanians as it was the strong point of the Whites.
You read carefully since you're not too good at English.
1. Croatia exports to Serbia are over 700M (freely available on the internet).
2. The point is to capture a growing markets before they become saturated with other people's goods. So while $700M may seem small to you.... it is still $700M. And more importantly in a growing economy that $00M will only get bigger and bigger (as people have more disposable income)
You wouldn't knw any of this because you were likely Communist educated well versed in the failed economics of Hegel and Marx and Tito (and free-market capitalism is something that you need to still study up on).
I have noticed that you are unable to intellectually discuss ideas with resorting to defamation (a trait of Communist era politics).
5% of someones economy is significant.
(factman, 8 August 2016 13:54)
Read carefully. Croatia's exports to Serbia represent 5,5% of Croatia's EXPORTS not of Croatia's ECONOMY. Exports and Economy are different things mate.
But if you want to do the math, Croatia's exports are about 23% of Croatia's economy, which means that if Serbia were to follow your advice it could have a negative impact on about 1% of Croatia's economy. I'm sure you'll call that "significant", too. Delusions don't die easily lol
(icj1, 8 August 2016 15:41)
You read carefully since you're not too good at English.
1. Croatia exports to Serbia are over 700M (freely available on the internet).
(factman, 8 August 2016 20:00)
Yup, and that's about 1% of Croatia's economy as I wrote, not 5% as you wrote. In English (that you claim to understand so well), 5% is not the same thing as 1% :)
----------
I have noticed that you are unable to intellectually discuss ideas with resorting to defamation (a trait of Communist era politics).
(factman, 8 August 2016 20:00)
I resort to hard facts. Just because facts don't match your delusional thoughts, that is not my fault. I can't change reality to match what you have in your head, mate!
----------
Now go run back into school
(factman, 8 August 2016 20:00)
The factman's school that has failed to even teach it's sturns how to correctly perform a % calculation?!
You shouldn't wade into deep waters that you are unfamiliar with :) lol
(factman, 9 August 2016 03:38)
Absolutely, I have no intention to wade into the deep waters of your lies. Few people, if any, are familiar with your "fact" that 5% of Croatia's economy depends on exports to Serbia. Based on the 700M number that YOU provided, that is about 1% of the Croatia's economy. So the 5% that you originally wrote was a pure lie!
----------
Great to see that you are learning. After realising that Serbia boycotting Made in Croatia goods would not have any significant impact on Croatia, you now expanded to Croatian-owned stores. Something you did not clarify though... Should Serbs also boycott Serbia Made goods sold in Croatian-owned stores? What's going to be the impact on Croatia's and Serbia's economy if they do it? Or, as usual, you first state your wishes and then you try (and fail) to find facts supporting what you wrote.
My advice to you if you don't want to be exposed as a lier again and again is that you should check the facts first and them make recommendations, not the other way around :)
@aaa
The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs. Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian". For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) .. or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father." or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.
In the 15th century, a coat of arms of "Tribalia", depicting a wild boar with an arrow pierced through the head (see Boars in heraldry), appeared in the supposed Coat of Arms of Emperor Stefan Dušan 'the Mighty' (r. 1331–1355).[26] The motif had, in 1415, been used as the Coat of Arms of the Serbian Despotate and is recalled in one of Stefan Lazarević's personal Seals, according to the paper Сабор у Констанци.[27] Pavao Ritter Vitezović also depicts "Triballia" with the same motif in 1701[28] and Hristofor Zhefarovich again in 1741.[29] With the beginning of the First Serbian Uprising, the Parliament adopted the Serbian Coat of Arms in 1805, their official seal depicted the heraldic emblems of Serbia and Tribalia.
Please stick to what you know :) lol
(factman, 9 August 2016 16:05)
Absolutely... and this is what I know so far
factman, 8 August 2016 13:54 claims that Croatia's exports to Serbia represent 5% of Croatia's economy
factman, 8 August 2016 20:00 claims that Croatia exports to Serbia are over 700M
So, since the size of Croatia's economy is 48732M, then 700/48732 is about 1%, not 5%. So, based on the math that is taught is most of the world, either (i) you are are a liar or (ii) you did not even attend elementary school. Feel free to choose which of the two options above applies lol.
But don't pick up a fight with facts; they are very stubborn :)
@aaa
I’m the nationalist? Hahaha right you bring up derogatory and racist terms to call serbs vlachs and I am the nationalist? Typical croat. Show me one thing that I said that is not backed up. Yes I have shown you plenty of examples of ancient sources calling serbs “triballi”. Prove the quotes I posted wrong...both about that and also about the historical census in Dalmatia. You cannot as they are facts. Again you are just looking at something and totally lying…the map shows no Croats in Dubrovnik or Split…does it? Just yes or no? The only funny thing here is your original claim that “Serbia was east of the drina”…that is the typical Croat ultra nationalist rhetoric established in the 1800s…you guys are nothing but sell outs towards your own kind…you even speak the SERBIAN language, Stokavian dialect….and you try so pathetically to debate me….prove my posts and sources wrong…you can not…
@aaa
-On Aug 8th you wrote; Especially since it was orthodox Serbs/Vlachs who migrated. I suppose Statuta Valachorum is a myth?
-I told you earlier that the Serbs were known by a number of names like; Illyrians, Sarmatians, Rasci, Traci, Thracians, Raci, Sloveni. “Triballi”, just like Croats are part of the Serbian nation - the oldest civilization on the planet who which invented writing in Vinca (ancient Hebrew was even written in the first Serbian script)…great book on the topic;
https://www.scribd.com/doc/36592597/Ivo-Vukcevic-Rex-German-or-Um-Populos-Sclavorum
@aaa
it is clear that not only was where todays knin and all of bosnia serbian on the map but it is also clear that the only real migration of serbs happened in the 10th century as you can see here;
http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2013/07/zagreb-in-a-panic-scientifically-proven-that-croats-are-descendants-of-serbs-2687972.html
show me any evidence or study that shows serbs being "Slaves"...this is an umbrella term invented by the anglo saxon (vienna/berlin) axis used to demonize all slavs since medieval times by the germanic tribes...some choose to fight this evil (like the serbs and russians) and some choose (like the croats) to be the foot soldiers and servants the most evil axis the world have ever known...
@aaa
there are countless examples of dalmatia and all of bosnia being referred to as serb land and inhabited by serbs since ancient times...just google pagania, travunia or even north of bosnia you find the ancient city of serbinum...the ancient city of Burnum (Knin) was inhabited by the Triballi...google them to see who these people were...
fact is that when we get back to your original post of "the serb migration" to the krajina and that "serbia was east of the drina", it just shows the weak attempt by croats to manipulate history...yes serb families were encouraged by the austrians to settle with catholic serbs in the austrian empire and in return had to fight against the turks...and there was no such thing as "Croatia" as an empire/state/kingdom or whatever we wish to call it but only the Austro empire there at the time...so what is your point then?
@aaa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narentines
The DAI speaks of the Narentines as descended from the "unbaptized Serbs" that settled Dalmatia under the protection of Byzantine Emperor Heraclius (r. 610–641), and that the land of the Narentines had earlier been devastated by the Avars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi
The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs
the serbs ruled from knin to siberia and its great culture spread from the danube region....just google the serb alphabet; Vinca script and compare it to ancient hebrew and etruscan;
http://www.ancientscripts.com/old_hebrew.html
@aaa
obviously you are ether blind or just trying to be slick. The map clearly shows the area where chorobati live being part of Charles' empire and not a croat state…also where did I say that orthodox serbs were not encouraged to settle amongst catholic Serbs in what is todays Croatia? I was addressing your point about “Serbia being east of the Drina”.
Of course now the insults like Vlach and Morlachs kick in, typical Croat racist. You prove my point now as the Vlachs/Serbs are part of the indigenous inhabitants of the Balkans who and were known by various names like Thracians, Triballi, Rasians, Illyrians and also by the racist name you mentioned. All were Serbs who the Vatican has tried to destroy for over a thousand years. Croats existed long ago but were pushed into Europe by the Turks and that’s why you have many in Central Europe (just like many Serbs were forced out of Kosovo by the Turks).
The word “Croat” was unknown in many parts of today’s Croatia let alone Bosnia until the “Illyrian awakening”. The Hungarian census from 1840 listed 504,000 serbs in croatia-slavonia alone. There were 1.6 million Serbs “of both orthodox and roman catholic faith” and just under 1.3 million Croats in monarchy as a whole (see Elek Fenyes, Magyarorszag statiszikaibirtokviszonyi es topographiai szempontbol. II 2. Pest 1859).
Mid 19th century Austrian sources did not find any Croats in Dalmatia which was listed as 96.18 percent Serb (see Joseph Hain, Handbuch der statistic des osterreichischen Kaiserstaats, vol 2, Vienna 1852).
The 1857 census counted 1.5 million Serbs and 1.4 miilion croats in the monarchy as a whole and hardly and Croats in Dalmatia which was listed as 88.9 percent Serb.
@aaa
You have only proven how weak the croat history is with your last post…you were crushed with my arguments…
-I never disputed that there were a people called “chorobati” that lived in the area outlined in the map. This has nothing to do with the catholic and orthodox serbs living in all of dalmatia, Slavonia and the area you call Krajina.
-first time Pagania was mentioned; In the 10th-century De Administrando Imperio (DAI) of Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (r. 913–959), the tribe is called Paganoi (Greek: Παγανοὶ, Παγανοἰ), and their polity Pagania (Παγανὶα, Παγανἰα), in Greek, while also noting that in Latin they are called Arentanoi (Αρεντανοἰ) and their polity Arenta (Αρεντα).[1] They are described as Serbs, "descended from the unbaptized Serbs ... The Pagani are so called because they did not accept baptism at the time when all the Serbs were baptized."
@aaa
amazing how serbs are both "settlers" and a foreign body in the balkans for nationalist croats and muslims in bosnia but are also "vlachs" who are indigenous people to the balkans! so settlers and indigenous at the same time! sickos!
gg : For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos:
Handle with care chronology by Niketas Choniat especially when it comes to Andronicus I. He hates Andronicus and on one page he writes that people loved him because he was justful while later on he says that the Emperor spoke Scythian and and wore their cloths and had their Barbarian manners. Most likely books by Niketas Choniat are not original and were “adopted” in 17-18 centuries when our history was rewritten.
One more thing. In the times you are mentioning I don’t think that the difference between future Serbs and future Russians was seen. Most likely Serbi and Siabri were the same tribe that lived north-west of Moscow. It included Belorussia, part of Poland, Prussia where Luzitskie Serbi still live ect.
Most likely Mehmed the Conqueror aka Mehmet II Yavuz aka Prophet Mohammad was Russian KLniaz/khan Tverskoy. One out of the 3 crowns on the Russian Coat of Arms belongs to them. Second small – to the Cherkassy Kniazia also known as Mamelukes. Finally the bigger crown symbolizes the Vladimirsko-Suzdal Kniazia to which Murad I killed in Kosovo belonged.
Stefan Dušan 'the Mighty' was Siabr i.e. from the ruling Vladimir-Suzdal Ruricovici Dynasty. Because he was a Njemanici i.e. from the place where the Siabri lived on Neman river. + Because he was Uros i.e. Russian + for many other reasons I am limited to talk about now.
@aaa
-You are taking the nationalist Croat line invented in the 1800s that “the Serbs are a foreign body in Croatia and are Vlachs”…you said it a few times.
-You have shown nothing but the ultimate contradiction and stupidity of Croat nationalists; you have been arguing and asking for proof of Serbs being called “triballi” in ancient times and I have shown you a number of examples and included links to books where it is mentioned. The best example of this is actually you proving my point when all nationalists (like you) Croat/Bosnian Muslim and Albanian call Serbs-Vlachs (indigenous people to the Balkans)! You guys are so stupid that even your insults contradict the point you are trying to make!
-Again take a deep breathe and look at the official census figures; Mid 19th century Austrian sources did not find any Croats in Dalmatia which was listed as 96.18 percent Serb (see Joseph Hain, Handbuch der statistic des osterreichischen Kaiserstaats, vol 2, Vienna 1852).
-Take a good look at where Dubrovnik is here; http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/europe_charlemagne_814.htm and tell me what it says as to what kingdom it is part of? Again a classic case of more typical Croat lies “it doesn’t say Serbia”…you look pathetic here really…
-All Croats who speak Shtovakian are SERBS no question about that
-You have proven only how stupid your point are – all have been minimized to nothing
The Chronicle alleged that the Slavs originated in the south, the country of Serbs and Croats.[2] It stated that "in the Serbian nation there is a land, known as Croatia; in this country there was a chieftain whose name was Cech."[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_Dalimil
The Serbs have been referred to with several names by other peoples;
“Dalmatians” was another name for Serbs utilized by especially Byzantines, the name clearly predates coming of Slavs.
In the context of referring to the local peoples’ writers describing contemporary events of their time using archaic names, the Byzantine writers most often called the Serbs "Dalmats". This starts with John Kinnamos, when he had wrote in the 12th century in his work "the Serbs, a Dalmatic tribe" (Σέρβιοι, ε-8-νος Δαλματικών), henceforth writing simply "Dalmats" or "Dalmatic people" in the contexts of the Serbs and "Dalmatia" in the context of Serbia. The same practice is continued by Anna Comnena in her "Alexiad" a chronicle of events in the late 11th century.[22] There are numerous other, less prominent, instances, poetic for example - Theodore Prodromus, Michael Italicus and the typikon of the Pantokrator monastery, among others.
22^ Anne Comnene, Alexiade (Regne de L'Empereur Alexis I Comnene 1081-1118) II, pp. l57:3-l6; 1.66: 25-169.
The Serb ethnonym is antique. The Serbs are thought to have been first mentioned by Tacitus in 50 AD, Pliny the Elder in 77 AD (Naturalis Historia) and Ptolemy in his Geography 2nd century AD, associated with the Sarmatian tribe of Serboi of the North Caucasus and Lower Volga.[8] One theory is that it is of ultimately Iranian origin.
-Đorđe Branković (1645–1711), in his Chronicles, wrote: "The Serbian name comes from the Savromat name, as Philipp Melanchthon testifies... According to a second version the Serbian name comes from the Sires people who used to live in the Asian part of Scythia. Among the Sires, wool grew in the same way as silk".
Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus (325-391) referred to the Carpathians as "Montes Serrorum" in his works, according to some, connected to the Serbs. In 1878, Henry Hoyle Howorth connected Ptolemy's mention of the town of Serbinum (Σέρβινον), modern Gradiška, Bosnia and Herzegovina, to the Serbs, and also found the Serb ethnonym in the works of Vibius Sequester
Sporoi
In De Bello Gothico Procopius (500-565) uses the name Sporoi as an umbrella term for the Slavic tribes of Antes and Sclaveni, it is however not known whether the Slavs used this designation for themselves or he himself coined the term, it has been theorized however that the name is corruption of the ethnonym Serbs. A large number of linguists agree that 'Sporoi' (Spores) is another name for the Serbs. Sporoi may be identical with 'Sorpi=Serpi=Serbi' and 'Sclavini'
Medieval
The Serbs were often called "Triballi" in Byzantine works. The Triballi was an ancient Thracian tribe that inhabited the area of the Morava Valley in southern Serbia. They were last mentioned in the 3rd century. The educated Byzantine authors sought an ancient name for the Serbs, and adopted it as the most likely. It was in use between the 11th and 15th century.
In the Byzantine chronicle Alexiad, covering the 11th century (written in 1148), Anna Komnene mentions the Serbs by the names Sklaveni and Dalmati (Δαλμάται, Dalmatai), with Dalmatia starting from Kosovo and Metohija. John Kinnamos, in his work covering 1118–76, wrote: "the Serbs, a Dalmatic (Dalmatian) tribe" (Σέρβιοι, ε-8-νος Δαλματικών), thus using "Dalmat(ian)s" or "Dalmatic (Dalmatian) people" in the context of the Serbs, and "Dalmatia" in the context of Serbia. There are numerous other, less prominent, instances, poetic for example — Theodore Prodromus, Michael Italicus and the typikon of the Pantokrator monastery, among others.
Medieval
The Serbs were often called "Triballi" in Byzantine works. The Triballi was an ancient Thracian tribe that inhabited the area of the Morava Valley in southern Serbia. They were last mentioned in the 3rd century. The educated Byzantine authors sought an ancient name for the Serbs, and adopted it as the most likely. It was in use between the 11th and 15th century.
In the Byzantine chronicle Alexiad, covering the 11th century (written in 1148), Anna Komnene mentions the Serbs by the names Sklaveni and Dalmati (Δαλμάται, Dalmatai), with Dalmatia starting from Kosovo and Metohija. John Kinnamos, in his work covering 1118–76, wrote: "the Serbs, a Dalmatic (Dalmatian) tribe" (Σέρβιοι, ε-8-νος Δαλματικών), thus using "Dalmat(ian)s" or "Dalmatic (Dalmatian) people" in the context of the Serbs, and "Dalmatia" in the context of Serbia. There are numerous other, less prominent, instances, poetic for example — Theodore Prodromus, Michael Italicus and the typikon of the Pantokrator monastery, among others.
"Vlachs", referring to pastoralists, was a common exonym for Serbs in the Ottoman Empire and later. The term "Vlachs" was also used for Slavs who shared lifestyle (as shepherds) with Romance peoples (Vlachs); it was used for the Serbs who settled the Military Frontier. Croatian nationalist historiography including Ustashi propaganda claim that the settlers were not Serbs, but Vlachs; that Serbs of Croatia are not Serbs. All South Slavic ethnic groups had some Romance ingredient, although there is no evidence that all or most Serbs in Croatia were of Vlach origin. In Bosnia, Orthodox Christians were called "Vlachs", actually used as a synonym of "Serbs". It was used as a derogatory term, and as a common name for Orthodox Serbs in Catholic lands, and lesser in the Ottoman Empire. Tihomir Đorđević (1868–1944), as did other academics, stressed that the name "Vlach" did not only refer to genuine Vlachs (Romance-speaking people), but also to cattle breeders in general. In a letter of Emperor Ferdinand sent on 6 November 6, 1538 to Croatian ban Petar Keglević, he wrote "Captains and dukes of the Rasians, or the Serbs, or the Vlachs, who are commonly called the Serbs".[13] Serbs that took refuge in the Habsburg Military Frontier were called "Vlachs" by the Croats.
In Dalmatia, terms used for Serbs were: "Morlachs" (Morlaci), "Vlachs" (Vlasi), Rkaći, Arkači, "Greek Dalmatians" (Garčki Dalmatini), or "Greek people".[26] The Catholics used the pejorative word rkać, derived from Venetian, for Orthodox people.[27] The terms Rišćani, Rkaći (Grkaći), Morlaci (crni Vlasi), were used for primitive shepherds, Serbs, who moved in Bukovica, and mountain pastures on the border of Lika (Velebit) and Bosnia (Dinara).
"Schismatics"
Illyri ("Illyrians") and Natio Illyrica ("Illyrian nation"), in official Habsburg documents.[29] The Rescriptum Declaratorium Illyricae Nationis from 1779, declared by Maria Theresa, officially established the position of Serbs and the Serbian Orthodox Church in the Habsburg Monarchy.
its time for krajina to come back and have full autonomy and join RS in Bosnia and all connect to Serbia......everyone are fed up with these little ustasas.....feel bad for the normal croats.....serbs should rebuild krajina back....croats cried for the serbs to come and defend them in history in krajina because croats are reality weak.......those are serb lands not Croatian......this should be on the table......
These statements are useless. Hit them where it hurts. Ban Croatian exports and nationalize Меrkаtоr, Аgrоkоr, Rоdа, Аtlаntik grupа, Frikоm, Sоkо Štаrk, Diјаmаnt and more. There's nothing they can do about it. There is very little Serbian business in Croatia and all Serbian property has been stolen already.
When will you learn? Enough is enough. You can't even do anything right with the country you have, but you want to go stealing other peoples lands.
(Captain Kosova, 5 August 2016 18:33) what wars did Serbia lose ? we won all even wiped out your Turkish daddy ........
Kosovo ,Serbs demolished your terrorists but you cried to the world for help.....Kosovo is serb lands not yours....and yet it was like 10,000 serbs against 300,000 lol........
bonsnia ,Serbs demolished everyone and again there was 400,000+ against 100,000 serbs lol and again they all cried to the world ,.....and thought they won.....but RS is here......
Croatia again the serbs defenders of krajina wiped the croats to the floor and yet it was 60,000 Serbs against over 300,000 lol and again cried to the world ......Serbs never attacked anyone but defended what was theirs
krajina
Kosovo
their part of Bosnia ......
but you know who were the biggest criers but act tough online it was YOU Albanians lol
so no serbs never lost any wars.......just stopped.....so think before you speak.....
No. They were Croatian lands where Serbs happened to be living.
(aaa, 5 August 2016 18:04) no they were not ,krajina is Serb lands ,Croatia was Zagreb and surroundings.....we defended those lands while croats ran to Austria from fear in history.....move along little boy aaa........see yea and go learn some real history and not ustasa ones.....
@azirbaijan
also your lie of milosevic trying to create a "greater serbia" has been debunked long ago! http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/01/the-exoneration-of-milosevic-the-ictys-surprise-ruling/
the world is sick of muslim albanianc lies! this is not 1999 anymore! cekamo....
Ignorant Dacic once was Milosevic's student of evil must understand in a civilized work normal people make mistakes, admit guilt ,receive justice , pay their dues to society and MOVE ON.
But not in SerbiSTAN.
The Ayatollah Chetniks continue to insists on destabilizing the Balkans with a master plan of the world .
Slovania is at peace because close to zero serb cancer infection.
The International Community must develop a De-Nazification National Program to make delusional serb society understand normal people don't act like that.
Serbian inat is the greatest threat to regional if not global peace and stability.
Serbia must be isolated, held acccountable of her criminality and be liberated of all non serbs currently occupied.
Statements like that is precisely why the international community is fed up with Serbia. Serbia gets destroyed left and right in every war that they start in their "Greater Serbia Project" and STILL Serbs talk about taking their neighbors land and "connecting" it to Serbia.
When will you learn? Enough is enough. You can't even do anything right with the country you have, but you want to go stealing other peoples lands.
@azirbaijan
"After World War 2 the Germans having failed in their aggression were rightfully relocated out of all the victim's countries"
look up the "demographic history of kosovo" and you will see a systematic expulsion of the serbs since the late 1800s due to albanian aggression with support from your ottoman muslim turk occupier brothers. with your logic albanians should be relocated back to asia/azerbaijan which is where you came to europe from...
to compare the yugoslav civil war to your ally hitlers quest for world dominance is truly shocking...for anyone interested in finding out more about the worlds worst killers ever just google; SS Skenderbeg or SS Handzar divisions...Muslim Nazi SS divisions....
Its called Slovenia, not Slovania! If you leave your goat herding duties in Kosovo and actually travel to Slovenia you'll realize there are more serbs than you could count. In a 2002 census, 38,964 people of Slovenia declared Serb ethnicity, corresponding to 1.98% of the total population, making them the largest ethnic minority in the country. By the way, why didn't you albanians get rid of all the serbs? Don't demand others to do what you don't have the ability to do. You may dream of a serb-free balkans but soon we'll be all over the place.
its time for krajina to come back and have full autonomy and join RS in Bosnia and all connect to Serbia......everyone are fed up with these little ustasas.....feel bad for the normal croats.....serbs should rebuild krajina back....croats cried for the serbs to come and defend them in history in krajina because croats are reality weak.......those are serb lands not Croatian......this should be on the table......
(krajina is serb lands, 5 August 2016 17:38)
You forgot to claim piece of Ohio state and part of Chicago.
no they were not ,krajina is Serb lands ,Croatia was Zagreb and surroundings.....we defended those lands while croats ran to Austria from fear in history.....move along little boy aaa........see yea and go learn some real history and not ustasa ones.....
(aaa is a joker, 5 August 2016 19:18)
No sorry mate, I can see you are confused. They are Croat lands which Serbs that were fleeing from the Turks were allowed to settle. Serbia was east of the Drina.
There were as many Serbs as Croats within the military frontier. However, most, if not all, of the battles against the Turks happened before the Serb migration - by the time Serbia had capitulated and your population was beginning to move. It was Croats that kept the Ottoman empire at bay, the Serbs arrived after all the heavy fighting had been done.
I suggest you learn some real history and not the chetnik variety. Move along troll.
@aaa
take a look at where serbia was in 814 before you say "serbia was east of the drina";
http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/europe_charlemagne_814.htm
@aaa
You have only proven how weak the croat history is with your last post…you were crushed with my arguments…
-I never disputed that there were a people called “chorobati” that lived in the area outlined in the map. This has nothing to do with the catholic and orthodox serbs living in all of dalmatia, Slavonia and the area you call Krajina.
-first time Pagania was mentioned; In the 10th-century De Administrando Imperio (DAI) of Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (r. 913–959), the tribe is called Paganoi (Greek: Παγανοὶ, Παγανοἰ), and their polity Pagania (Παγανὶα, Παγανἰα), in Greek, while also noting that in Latin they are called Arentanoi (Αρεντανοἰ) and their polity Arenta (Αρεντα).[1] They are described as Serbs, "descended from the unbaptized Serbs ... The Pagani are so called because they did not accept baptism at the time when all the Serbs were baptized."
You can try to hit as much as you want mr. dacic.. but this will Not help you.... the balkan today is bad just because of his past , all the wars you made and your mentallity that how it seems : you never wanna change it.. you can not sit on two chairs mister ... if you want us not to block your way to Eu.. you have to change your milloshevic mentallity toward balkan countries like croatia bosnia kosovo and other west balkan . or you keep doing like now.. and stay where you are..
Azir,
your thinking maybe would be acceptable if Serbs were allowed to protect integrity of Serbia against "unruly minority" and expel them all. Why would anybody be sympathetic to them?
Is that what you are advocating?
Serbs were only unburdened by not having to live in a fascist state after 1995, and by not having to be submitted to official Croatian racism and apartheid. While 200,000 Serbs left in three days, more than 200,000 Croats have left that failing state since.
azir can not debate me...he runs from my posts like albanians typically do...he is calling nato to fight for him...pathetic really as all you albaniacs can do is pimp out your sisters around europe so you can pay nato back your debt;
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=131011
https://euobserver.com/investigations/131964
no sorry, i forgot to say you are also great at selling drugs; https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/mar/13/balkans
Serbia has lost its power outside Serbia ever since the collapse of YU. Croatia will do what it wants and when it wants. It will not allow a country of a lower class who aren't part of any organisation what to do. Thise that lose wars will always make excuses and attempt to blame others as they can't accept the loss. The Best thing for Serbs to do us join stinking Russia and leave the E.U for those countries with at least half a brain.
Serbs returned to, fled to or expelled to Serbia proper after 500 years because of Milosevic's politics and greater Serbian ideals by Serb nationalists and crazies in the 80s and 90s. Now you have a great serbia. Stop crying Dacic.
@aaa
there are countless examples of dalmatia and all of bosnia being referred to as serb land and inhabited by serbs since ancient times...just google pagania, travunia or even north of bosnia you find the ancient city of serbinum...the ancient city of Burnum (Knin) was inhabited by the Triballi...google them to see who these people were...
fact is that when we get back to your original post of "the serb migration" to the krajina and that "serbia was east of the drina", it just shows the weak attempt by croats to manipulate history...yes serb families were encouraged by the austrians to settle with catholic serbs in the austrian empire and in return had to fight against the turks...and there was no such thing as "Croatia" as an empire/state/kingdom or whatever we wish to call it but only the Austro empire there at the time...so what is your point then?
@aaa
amazing how serbs are both "settlers" and a foreign body in the balkans for nationalist croats and muslims in bosnia but are also "vlachs" who are indigenous people to the balkans! so settlers and indigenous at the same time! sickos!
These idiot Croats are what you expect. But, I hold you idiots - Serbian politians to blame because of you sputidity, nativity, foolishness in not considering your people's wishs and needs and you Andre to you enemies, us , eu, shiptari, hravati, and any anti Serbian being...hold your heads in shame. You're a disgrace.
s
@aaa
obviously you are ether blind or just trying to be slick. The map clearly shows the area where chorobati live being part of Charles' empire and not a croat state…also where did I say that orthodox serbs were not encouraged to settle amongst catholic Serbs in what is todays Croatia? I was addressing your point about “Serbia being east of the Drina”.
Of course now the insults like Vlach and Morlachs kick in, typical Croat racist. You prove my point now as the Vlachs/Serbs are part of the indigenous inhabitants of the Balkans who and were known by various names like Thracians, Triballi, Rasians, Illyrians and also by the racist name you mentioned. All were Serbs who the Vatican has tried to destroy for over a thousand years. Croats existed long ago but were pushed into Europe by the Turks and that’s why you have many in Central Europe (just like many Serbs were forced out of Kosovo by the Turks).
The word “Croat” was unknown in many parts of today’s Croatia let alone Bosnia until the “Illyrian awakening”. The Hungarian census from 1840 listed 504,000 serbs in croatia-slavonia alone. There were 1.6 million Serbs “of both orthodox and roman catholic faith” and just under 1.3 million Croats in monarchy as a whole (see Elek Fenyes, Magyarorszag statiszikaibirtokviszonyi es topographiai szempontbol. II 2. Pest 1859).
Mid 19th century Austrian sources did not find any Croats in Dalmatia which was listed as 96.18 percent Serb (see Joseph Hain, Handbuch der statistic des osterreichischen Kaiserstaats, vol 2, Vienna 1852).
The 1857 census counted 1.5 million Serbs and 1.4 miilion croats in the monarchy as a whole and hardly and Croats in Dalmatia which was listed as 88.9 percent Serb.
@aaa
The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs. Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian". For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) .. or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father." or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.
In the 15th century, a coat of arms of "Tribalia", depicting a wild boar with an arrow pierced through the head (see Boars in heraldry), appeared in the supposed Coat of Arms of Emperor Stefan Dušan 'the Mighty' (r. 1331–1355).[26] The motif had, in 1415, been used as the Coat of Arms of the Serbian Despotate and is recalled in one of Stefan Lazarević's personal Seals, according to the paper Сабор у Констанци.[27] Pavao Ritter Vitezović also depicts "Triballia" with the same motif in 1701[28] and Hristofor Zhefarovich again in 1741.[29] With the beginning of the First Serbian Uprising, the Parliament adopted the Serbian Coat of Arms in 1805, their official seal depicted the heraldic emblems of Serbia and Tribalia.
Well, when the HDZ is already the butt of jokes and stands to get clobbered in the Fall elections to the SDS, you might as well make the best of what time is left in your lame duck session by saying the dumbest things possible to be remembered by.
Word SLOVENIA was mentioned on the maps of 14-15 centuries. Lands north of Veliki Novgorod (now Yaroslavl) were marked so. We have two stances on how word Slavs (Славяне) appeared. Some derive it from word СЛОВО i.e. PEOPLE OF THE WORD ( «В начале было Слово и Cлово было Бог») while the others explain it from word СЛАВА i.e. “people who praise God”.
I personally can’t make my choice. Partly because not only СЛОВЕНЕ & СЛАВЯНЕ were used in old documents but also other compromise versions like СЛОВЯНЕ. Sometimes one author (Radishev) could use 2 versions of the name in the same text.
Anyways when we talk about the period of 13-17 centuries I believe that using this word is correct for all Slavic peoples. Just because none of the nations was not formed yet. First nations started to form in the 17-18 centuries but most of them were really formed in 19-20 only.
Word Russian was first used in the current meaning only since Peter I (the German) while during the killed Peter I (Russian) people here were called either as Rusici or the Tartars.
Toponymal Serb/Serbians was used much earlier but it can also be a reflection of the Russian word СЯБРЫ/SJABRI used in the north-west Russian regions like Litva (Byelorussia) , Pskov (Prussia and Baltic), Novgorod.
So many things remain unclear ! Say we all know that in 19 century the Oldenbugs ruled Europe but we also know that the mediaeval name of Oldenburg town was Старгород!
Kosovo ,Serbs demolished your terrorists but you cried to the world for help.....Kosovo is serb lands not yours....and yet it was like 10,000 serbs against 300,000 lol........
bonsnia ,Serbs demolished everyone and again there was 400,000+ against 100,000 serbs lol and again they all cried to the world ,.....and thought they won.....but RS is here......
Croatia again the serbs defenders of krajina wiped the croats to the floor and yet it was 60,000 Serbs against over 300,000 lol and again cried to the world ......Serbs never attacked anyone but defended what was theirs
krajina
Kosovo
their part of Bosnia ......
but you know who were the biggest criers but act tough online it was YOU Albanians lol
so no serbs never lost any wars.......just stopped.....so think before you speak.....
(yea right, 5 August 2016 19:26
You are right but if we albanians have the army you serbs have you probably be writing comennts from your mother Russia ok
The Chronicle alleged that the Slavs originated in the south, the country of Serbs and Croats.[2] It stated that "in the Serbian nation there is a land, known as Croatia; in this country there was a chieftain whose name was Cech."[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_Dalimil
What is all of this obsession in the Serbian media with Croatia. Of the 7 main stories 5 are about Croatia.
I come here to read about what is happening in Serbia but all I get is this obsession with Croatia.
Look at todays Croatian media, stories about their upcoming elections, number of cruise ships in Zadar, cost of food on the coast, and a car accident, barely a mention about Serbia.
It seems to me that the Serbian politicians want to keep Croatia in the news and want people to forget about the crime , poverty and corruption and general dissatisfaction with life in Serbia today. They want someone to blame and Croatia is an easy target rather than looking in the mirror.
Croatians have moved on and could care less about what is happening in Serbia, while it seems Serbia has an obsession with Croatia. It is about time Serbs start looking inward and fixing their own problems rather then being distracted with all of this hype from the politicians about fear of Croatia.
If you keep living in 1941 or 1995, you standard of living will remain there while the rest of the region and world move on.
Azir : But not in SerbiSTAN. The Ayatollah Chetniks continue ...
1/ Serbistan is not an insult because it shows how far the great Slavic Empire of 14-17 centuries reached. STAN is a Slavic word meaning PLACE. So Aghanistan was PLACE OF AFGHAN where AFGHAN was the name of the Slavic Cossack ataman/voevoda/khan. This way other hordes were marked worldwide including the USA like Can Orda = Canada, Amer-i Can = America, Calif Orda = Califordia = California, Khan Zas = Kansas ect. Thus Kirgiz (CRKZ =Tsar Cossaks) or Tibetians or Turkmens or Hindu or Uzbeks (Urus-bek) were just names of the Hordes or their commanders. Before 1936 Kazakhstan was called Cossackstan but stalin changed one letter.
2/ Chetniks saved Europe from the Nazi Skanderbes Waffen SS so it’s the pride of the Serbs.
3/ Ayatollah though has nothing to do to the Serbs is also a positive word. Those are Islamic fundamentalists who rebelled against their Shah-in-Shah Mohammad Reza Pehlevi. This man was a US puppet like all the peoples around Serbia are but his father was a Russian Cossack Colonel … Read Russian Wikipedia.
@aaa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narentines
The DAI speaks of the Narentines as descended from the "unbaptized Serbs" that settled Dalmatia under the protection of Byzantine Emperor Heraclius (r. 610–641), and that the land of the Narentines had earlier been devastated by the Avars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi
The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs
the serbs ruled from knin to siberia and its great culture spread from the danube region....just google the serb alphabet; Vinca script and compare it to ancient hebrew and etruscan;
http://www.ancientscripts.com/old_hebrew.html
You lose a potential market of 4M that you are not reliant upon.
Serbs are not very smart.
Kick their economic ass and you'll see how quick they change their tune.
Made in Croatia = Leave it on the shelf.
(factman, 6 August 2016 19:13)
Only 5,5% of Made in Croatia exports go to Serbia. So it does not appear the 8M market you are talking about is that relevant to Croatia's economy and poor Serbia can't do much to kick Croatia's economic add. I totally understand that it is frustrating for Serbia to be so powerless, but hey, it's Serbia's fault for being such a failed country.
But, by all means, feel free to preach to Serbia your delusions lol I'm sure there are people there who love them!
gg : @azirbaijan //// since the late 1800s due to albanian aggression with support from your ottoman muslim turk occupier brothers. ////////// @aaa take a look at where serbia was in 814
There were many Albanias worldwide and the one in Azerbaijan had nothing to do with the Shqiptars. Those were different Albanias as well as the one in Albany USA. ///// Yes things changed for worse during Tanzimat Period in the Ottomania after the Slavic Mamelukes were massacred in Cairo in 1811 and then the Slavic Yanissary were massacred in 1926. The new Sultan laid in the dog’s position in front of Britain and even changed the traditional cloths of the Sultans. But I found no clashes between Serbs and the Shqiptars when you both were inside the Empire. ////// Finally there was no Europe in 1814 so the map is false. There were no states nor grammar to know something of the time you mentioned.
AgRONio : “you lost the war against Cratia just you need to admit in wars serbia are loosers.”
It was the biggest mistake Slobo has done. Otherwise the Bosnian Serbs’ Army could quite destroy the Croats even without aid from Mainland Serbia. It was a great mistake to make the US a friend. Russia has almost betrayed him so he aggravated the situation to end his life in Hague.
@joni
"Although the Illyrian tribe of the Albanoi and the place Albanopolis could be located near Krujë, nothing proves a relation of this tribe to the Albanians, whose name appears for the first time in the 11th century in Byzantine sources"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#Arguments_against_Illyrian_origin
show me just 1 albanian source from prior to the 19th century that claims this ancient past or that mentions the illyrian connection? there is none as the albanains only started to make this claim AFTER they saw the croats and serbs do so during the illyrian movement;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement
@aaa
-You are taking the nationalist Croat line invented in the 1800s that “the Serbs are a foreign body in Croatia and are Vlachs”…you said it a few times.
-You have shown nothing but the ultimate contradiction and stupidity of Croat nationalists; you have been arguing and asking for proof of Serbs being called “triballi” in ancient times and I have shown you a number of examples and included links to books where it is mentioned. The best example of this is actually you proving my point when all nationalists (like you) Croat/Bosnian Muslim and Albanian call Serbs-Vlachs (indigenous people to the Balkans)! You guys are so stupid that even your insults contradict the point you are trying to make!
-Again take a deep breathe and look at the official census figures; Mid 19th century Austrian sources did not find any Croats in Dalmatia which was listed as 96.18 percent Serb (see Joseph Hain, Handbuch der statistic des osterreichischen Kaiserstaats, vol 2, Vienna 1852).
-Take a good look at where Dubrovnik is here; http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/europe_charlemagne_814.htm and tell me what it says as to what kingdom it is part of? Again a classic case of more typical Croat lies “it doesn’t say Serbia”…you look pathetic here really…
-All Croats who speak Shtovakian are SERBS no question about that
-You have proven only how stupid your point are – all have been minimized to nothing
@rote
"there was no europe in 1814"????? first of all my maps from 814 and it was Europe at the Death of Charlemagne (a map widley available in any university for many years) ....so did the continent of europe according to you only come into existence in the 1200s which is the first time the word Albanian or Albania was even mention in the Balkans?
@aaa
it is clear that not only was where todays knin and all of bosnia serbian on the map but it is also clear that the only real migration of serbs happened in the 10th century as you can see here;
http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2013/07/zagreb-in-a-panic-scientifically-proven-that-croats-are-descendants-of-serbs-2687972.html
show me any evidence or study that shows serbs being "Slaves"...this is an umbrella term invented by the anglo saxon (vienna/berlin) axis used to demonize all slavs since medieval times by the germanic tribes...some choose to fight this evil (like the serbs and russians) and some choose (like the croats) to be the foot soldiers and servants the most evil axis the world have ever known...
From icj: "I resort to hard facts. Just because facts don't match your delusional thoughts, that is not my fault. I can't change reality to match what you have in your head, mate!"
But you did try to change reality icj, don't you remember? Allow me to refresh your selective memory. You cut and pasted portions of my post and re-posted them out of context to change the meaning, remember? You also dodged several questions that I asked you over and over again, remember? You were exposed as a deceitful coward then as you are being exposed again with factman. Now, before you get the urge to respond to me with your typical meaningless reply, come back with the answers to my several questions that have been asked of you repeatedly. Failure to do so will render you as another Serb-hating coward who has learned his/her history from the historical revisionist Ustasha handbook. Bye, bye.
@aaa
I’m the nationalist? Hahaha right you bring up derogatory and racist terms to call serbs vlachs and I am the nationalist? Typical croat. Show me one thing that I said that is not backed up. Yes I have shown you plenty of examples of ancient sources calling serbs “triballi”. Prove the quotes I posted wrong...both about that and also about the historical census in Dalmatia. You cannot as they are facts. Again you are just looking at something and totally lying…the map shows no Croats in Dubrovnik or Split…does it? Just yes or no? The only funny thing here is your original claim that “Serbia was east of the drina”…that is the typical Croat ultra nationalist rhetoric established in the 1800s…you guys are nothing but sell outs towards your own kind…you even speak the SERBIAN language, Stokavian dialect….and you try so pathetically to debate me….prove my posts and sources wrong…you can not…
@aaa
-On Aug 8th you wrote; Especially since it was orthodox Serbs/Vlachs who migrated. I suppose Statuta Valachorum is a myth?
-I told you earlier that the Serbs were known by a number of names like; Illyrians, Sarmatians, Rasci, Traci, Thracians, Raci, Sloveni. “Triballi”, just like Croats are part of the Serbian nation - the oldest civilization on the planet who which invented writing in Vinca (ancient Hebrew was even written in the first Serbian script)…great book on the topic;
https://www.scribd.com/doc/36592597/Ivo-Vukcevic-Rex-German-or-Um-Populos-Sclavorum
The Serbs have been referred to with several names by other peoples;
“Dalmatians” was another name for Serbs utilized by especially Byzantines, the name clearly predates coming of Slavs.
In the context of referring to the local peoples’ writers describing contemporary events of their time using archaic names, the Byzantine writers most often called the Serbs "Dalmats". This starts with John Kinnamos, when he had wrote in the 12th century in his work "the Serbs, a Dalmatic tribe" (Σέρβιοι, ε-8-νος Δαλματικών), henceforth writing simply "Dalmats" or "Dalmatic people" in the contexts of the Serbs and "Dalmatia" in the context of Serbia. The same practice is continued by Anna Comnena in her "Alexiad" a chronicle of events in the late 11th century.[22] There are numerous other, less prominent, instances, poetic for example - Theodore Prodromus, Michael Italicus and the typikon of the Pantokrator monastery, among others.
22^ Anne Comnene, Alexiade (Regne de L'Empereur Alexis I Comnene 1081-1118) II, pp. l57:3-l6; 1.66: 25-169.
The Serb ethnonym is antique. The Serbs are thought to have been first mentioned by Tacitus in 50 AD, Pliny the Elder in 77 AD (Naturalis Historia) and Ptolemy in his Geography 2nd century AD, associated with the Sarmatian tribe of Serboi of the North Caucasus and Lower Volga.[8] One theory is that it is of ultimately Iranian origin.
-Đorđe Branković (1645–1711), in his Chronicles, wrote: "The Serbian name comes from the Savromat name, as Philipp Melanchthon testifies... According to a second version the Serbian name comes from the Sires people who used to live in the Asian part of Scythia. Among the Sires, wool grew in the same way as silk".
Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus (325-391) referred to the Carpathians as "Montes Serrorum" in his works, according to some, connected to the Serbs. In 1878, Henry Hoyle Howorth connected Ptolemy's mention of the town of Serbinum (Σέρβινον), modern Gradiška, Bosnia and Herzegovina, to the Serbs, and also found the Serb ethnonym in the works of Vibius Sequester
Sporoi
In De Bello Gothico Procopius (500-565) uses the name Sporoi as an umbrella term for the Slavic tribes of Antes and Sclaveni, it is however not known whether the Slavs used this designation for themselves or he himself coined the term, it has been theorized however that the name is corruption of the ethnonym Serbs. A large number of linguists agree that 'Sporoi' (Spores) is another name for the Serbs. Sporoi may be identical with 'Sorpi=Serpi=Serbi' and 'Sclavini'
Medieval
The Serbs were often called "Triballi" in Byzantine works. The Triballi was an ancient Thracian tribe that inhabited the area of the Morava Valley in southern Serbia. They were last mentioned in the 3rd century. The educated Byzantine authors sought an ancient name for the Serbs, and adopted it as the most likely. It was in use between the 11th and 15th century.
In the Byzantine chronicle Alexiad, covering the 11th century (written in 1148), Anna Komnene mentions the Serbs by the names Sklaveni and Dalmati (Δαλμάται, Dalmatai), with Dalmatia starting from Kosovo and Metohija. John Kinnamos, in his work covering 1118–76, wrote: "the Serbs, a Dalmatic (Dalmatian) tribe" (Σέρβιοι, ε-8-νος Δαλματικών), thus using "Dalmat(ian)s" or "Dalmatic (Dalmatian) people" in the context of the Serbs, and "Dalmatia" in the context of Serbia. There are numerous other, less prominent, instances, poetic for example — Theodore Prodromus, Michael Italicus and the typikon of the Pantokrator monastery, among others.
Medieval
The Serbs were often called "Triballi" in Byzantine works. The Triballi was an ancient Thracian tribe that inhabited the area of the Morava Valley in southern Serbia. They were last mentioned in the 3rd century. The educated Byzantine authors sought an ancient name for the Serbs, and adopted it as the most likely. It was in use between the 11th and 15th century.
In the Byzantine chronicle Alexiad, covering the 11th century (written in 1148), Anna Komnene mentions the Serbs by the names Sklaveni and Dalmati (Δαλμάται, Dalmatai), with Dalmatia starting from Kosovo and Metohija. John Kinnamos, in his work covering 1118–76, wrote: "the Serbs, a Dalmatic (Dalmatian) tribe" (Σέρβιοι, ε-8-νος Δαλματικών), thus using "Dalmat(ian)s" or "Dalmatic (Dalmatian) people" in the context of the Serbs, and "Dalmatia" in the context of Serbia. There are numerous other, less prominent, instances, poetic for example — Theodore Prodromus, Michael Italicus and the typikon of the Pantokrator monastery, among others.
"Vlachs", referring to pastoralists, was a common exonym for Serbs in the Ottoman Empire and later. The term "Vlachs" was also used for Slavs who shared lifestyle (as shepherds) with Romance peoples (Vlachs); it was used for the Serbs who settled the Military Frontier. Croatian nationalist historiography including Ustashi propaganda claim that the settlers were not Serbs, but Vlachs; that Serbs of Croatia are not Serbs. All South Slavic ethnic groups had some Romance ingredient, although there is no evidence that all or most Serbs in Croatia were of Vlach origin. In Bosnia, Orthodox Christians were called "Vlachs", actually used as a synonym of "Serbs". It was used as a derogatory term, and as a common name for Orthodox Serbs in Catholic lands, and lesser in the Ottoman Empire. Tihomir Đorđević (1868–1944), as did other academics, stressed that the name "Vlach" did not only refer to genuine Vlachs (Romance-speaking people), but also to cattle breeders in general. In a letter of Emperor Ferdinand sent on 6 November 6, 1538 to Croatian ban Petar Keglević, he wrote "Captains and dukes of the Rasians, or the Serbs, or the Vlachs, who are commonly called the Serbs".[13] Serbs that took refuge in the Habsburg Military Frontier were called "Vlachs" by the Croats.
In Dalmatia, terms used for Serbs were: "Morlachs" (Morlaci), "Vlachs" (Vlasi), Rkaći, Arkači, "Greek Dalmatians" (Garčki Dalmatini), or "Greek people".[26] The Catholics used the pejorative word rkać, derived from Venetian, for Orthodox people.[27] The terms Rišćani, Rkaći (Grkaći), Morlaci (crni Vlasi), were used for primitive shepherds, Serbs, who moved in Bukovica, and mountain pastures on the border of Lika (Velebit) and Bosnia (Dinara).
"Schismatics"
Illyri ("Illyrians") and Natio Illyrica ("Illyrian nation"), in official Habsburg documents.[29] The Rescriptum Declaratorium Illyricae Nationis from 1779, declared by Maria Theresa, officially established the position of Serbs and the Serbian Orthodox Church in the Habsburg Monarchy.
Google "most guns per capita" its no surprise USA is number 1, have a look at who is number 2.
All your media is about Croatia, Croatia, Croatia.
Serbia is running training missions with Russia on the boarder, then you want to lecture Croatia on friendly neighborhood actions.
Do you really expect people think Serbias bid to enter the EU is serious?
I hope it is and I hope they get out of this paranoid state they are in.
Encourage the people to Boycott Croatian goods.
They lose a market of 8M they are reliant upon.
Kick their economic ass and you'll see how quick they change their tune.
Made in Croatia = Leave it on the shelf.
(factman, 6 August 2016 19:13)
Only 5,5% of Made in Croatia exports go to Serbia. So it does not appear the 8M market you are talking about is that relevant to Croatia's economy and poor Serbia can't do much to kick Croatia's economic add. I totally understand that it is frustrating for Serbia to be so powerless, but hey, it's Serbia's fault for being such a failed country.
But, by all means, feel free to preach to Serbia your delusions lol I'm sure there are people there who love them!
(icj1, 6 August 2016 23:29)
5% of someones economy is significant.
(factman, 8 August 2016 13:54)
Read carefully. Croatia's exports to Serbia represent 5,5% of Croatia's EXPORTS not of Croatia's ECONOMY. Exports and Economy are different things mate.
But if you want to do the math, Croatia's exports are about 23% of Croatia's economy, which means that if Serbia were to follow your advice it could have a negative impact on about 1% of Croatia's economy. I'm sure you'll call that "significant", too. Delusions don't die easily lol
The article in the link you forwarded regarding Croats originating from Serbs has been debunked as an April fools joke. Sorry to burst your bubble. Alas, there were several Serb migrations which Serbian scholars and public alike agree on.
I wasnt implying that Serbs or any other Slavic groups were slaves. Take a look at your map again - it clearly says 'slaves' however the assumption is that its referring to 'Slavs' (I thought you understood that, I wasnt trying to cause offense there).
The original map you posted contradicts the newer 'article' you forwarded. Going back to the original map, the geographic titles of 'Chrobatia' and 'Servia' relate to not long after the Croats and Serbs arrived in the area. The only assumptions one can draw from your map (and these are assumptions at best, since we are basing it on a map only - which you provided), is:
1. the names relate to the states formed by the Serbs and Croats, or
2. the names relate to the ethnic/tribal groups living in those regions.
Either way, it only proves my point. Although Im sure you can find a new map which suits your 'philosophy'/political view.
You read carefully since you're not too good at English.
1. Croatia exports to Serbia are over 700M (freely available on the internet).
2. The point is to capture a growing markets before they become saturated with other people's goods. So while $700M may seem small to you.... it is still $700M. And more importantly in a growing economy that $00M will only get bigger and bigger (as people have more disposable income)
You wouldn't knw any of this because you were likely Communist educated well versed in the failed economics of Hegel and Marx and Tito (and free-market capitalism is something that you need to still study up on).
I have noticed that you are unable to intellectually discuss ideas with resorting to defamation (a trait of Communist era politics).
Obviously you still havent learned how to read a map and are possibly blind yourself. The map shows chrobati living within charlemagne's area and the bordering areas outside of it.
There is much debate about whether the Narentines are Serb or Croat, your wikipedia link proves nothing. The area they inhabited is outside of Krajina so why did you switch the topic to this?
Triballi were a Thracian tribe that lived in Serbia and Bulgaria - this is from the same wikipedia article. The name was synonomus with Serbs since both groups lived in the area. Please provide evidence that Serbs descended from Triballi.
'the serbs ruled from knin to siberia...'
'Thracians, Triballi, Rasians, Illyrians... All were Serbs who the Vatican has tried to destroy..'
Haha, have you been getting your history lessons from rote?
'The word “Croat” was unknown...'
The rest of the world seems to disagree with you, including Serb scholars.
'The Hungarian census from 1840 listed 504,000 serbs in croatia-slavonia alone'
Which accounts for about 31.4 % of the total population. So you confirmed Serbs were in the minority, thanks.
‘Austrian census and hardly any Serbs in Dalmatia’.
A demographic map of Austria from 1855 can be found on the 'Austiran Empire' wiki page - this is before your census. More Croats than Serbs in the empire and hardly any Serbs in Dalmatia.
Putting the Croatian ambassador into a wheelbarrow and getting his charge d'affaires to push quickly in the direction of that village called Zagreb is what could be called "ethically" cleaning up Serbia. Setting fire to that building he/she used to live in would help to get his/her president a feel for their version of morality too. You could call it Operation Asswipe as it would be getting rid of that sh..
your "point" was that serbia was east of the drink which is a lie...todays bosnia and croatia were serbia before belgrade was
also take a better look at the map...knin is clearly in serb hands centuries before the "military frontier" even existed....
(gg, 7 August 2016 21:30)
My initial point was at the time of Serb migration to the military frontier, Serbia was east of the Drina.
Looking at your map, it shows the grey area in the Balkans corresponding to slavic tribes (actually it says 'slaves'), with the geographic region of 'Serbia' highlighted - the bulk of which is across the Drina. Whereas 'Chrobatia' extends into modern Bosnia. So no, the bulk of today's Croatia and Bosnia appear to be Croatian more than anything.
Knin is not 'clearly' in Serbian hands. On the contrary, it is quite close to the border of Charlemagne's empire and the lands inhabited by Slavic tribes. Furthermore, the map does not give evidence regarding the dominant ethnicity living in Knin, nor that is Serbian administrated.
gg : so did the continent of europe according to you only come into existence in the 1200s which is the first time the word Albanian or Albania was even mention in the Balkans?
Albanians and Europe are two different issues. Strange as it is they are connected though indirectly. All because the main reason why our history was wiped off was to clean memory of the White Horde aka the Great Tartaria. It enabled the Russian governors of the European provinces explain why they became Kings in 17 century. So they took Hordian history and attached it to the events that happened in Britain, France ect. I can tell you how it was if you ask. Thus they tried to wipe off word ALBANIAN/WHITE but many toponymal has survived.
This word had often been used to mark the territories of the White Horde that since late 14 century became the main of the Hordes. It happened during the war against the Golden Horde that lasted since 1370 till 1415. Kosovska Bitka was one of the battles of that war. Anyways word Albanian never had ethnical meaning but showed the military power to which some people belonged. Since 14 century all Balkan peoples were Albanians as it was the strong point of the Whites.
The only powerless party here is Croatia.
(factman, 8 August 2016 13:54)
Powerless about what?! It is Serbia that is huffing and puffing almost daily instead of actually doing something since it is so "powerful" according to you lol
5% of someones economy is significant.
(factman, 8 August 2016 13:54)
Read carefully. Croatia's exports to Serbia represent 5,5% of Croatia's EXPORTS not of Croatia's ECONOMY. Exports and Economy are different things mate.
But if you want to do the math, Croatia's exports are about 23% of Croatia's economy, which means that if Serbia were to follow your advice it could have a negative impact on about 1% of Croatia's economy. I'm sure you'll call that "significant", too. Delusions don't die easily lol
(icj1, 8 August 2016 15:41)
You read carefully since you're not too good at English.
1. Croatia exports to Serbia are over 700M (freely available on the internet).
(factman, 8 August 2016 20:00)
Yup, and that's about 1% of Croatia's economy as I wrote, not 5% as you wrote. In English (that you claim to understand so well), 5% is not the same thing as 1% :)
----------
I have noticed that you are unable to intellectually discuss ideas with resorting to defamation (a trait of Communist era politics).
(factman, 8 August 2016 20:00)
I resort to hard facts. Just because facts don't match your delusional thoughts, that is not my fault. I can't change reality to match what you have in your head, mate!
----------
Now go run back into school
(factman, 8 August 2016 20:00)
The factman's school that has failed to even teach it's sturns how to correctly perform a % calculation?!
gg : For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos:
Handle with care chronology by Niketas Choniat especially when it comes to Andronicus I. He hates Andronicus and on one page he writes that people loved him because he was justful while later on he says that the Emperor spoke Scythian and and wore their cloths and had their Barbarian manners. Most likely books by Niketas Choniat are not original and were “adopted” in 17-18 centuries when our history was rewritten.
One more thing. In the times you are mentioning I don’t think that the difference between future Serbs and future Russians was seen. Most likely Serbi and Siabri were the same tribe that lived north-west of Moscow. It included Belorussia, part of Poland, Prussia where Luzitskie Serbi still live ect.
Most likely Mehmed the Conqueror aka Mehmet II Yavuz aka Prophet Mohammad was Russian KLniaz/khan Tverskoy. One out of the 3 crowns on the Russian Coat of Arms belongs to them. Second small – to the Cherkassy Kniazia also known as Mamelukes. Finally the bigger crown symbolizes the Vladimirsko-Suzdal Kniazia to which Murad I killed in Kosovo belonged.
Stefan Dušan 'the Mighty' was Siabr i.e. from the ruling Vladimir-Suzdal Ruricovici Dynasty. Because he was a Njemanici i.e. from the place where the Siabri lived on Neman river. + Because he was Uros i.e. Russian + for many other reasons I am limited to talk about now.
Then please provide said 'countless examples' - your map seems to prove otherwise. Especially regarding Knin
Burum was a Roman town, what does that have to do with Serbs? Similarly, I did google triballi and they weren't a Serb tribe :) Pagania and Travunia were inhabited by 'slavs' according to google. Regardless, it still disproves your ideas of Krajina or Knin being Serbian
'yes serb families were encouraged by the austrians to settle'
So you admit that Serbs migrated during Austrian administration, thanks again for proving my point :). Its more like a weak attempt by you to manipulate history. Funny, no mention of Catholic Serbs in Croatian or Austrian records at the time. Must be a conspiracy, right? Especially since it was orthodox Serbs/Vlachs who migrated. I suppose Statuta Valachorum is a myth?
'and there was no such thing as "Croatia" as an empire/state/kingdom or whatever we wish to call it but only the Austro empire there at the time'
But the map you provided proves otherwise :) Fun question, where did Serbs flee to when the Bulgarians invaded?
'so what is your point then?'
Let me break it down for you:
1. you came up with a bogus theory
2. you provided a map which worked against you
3. you attempted to save yourself by providing a fake article.
My point is you are wrong and have only been proving my point the whole time. The real question is, what is YOUR point?
You shouldn't wade into deep waters that you are unfamiliar with :) lol
(factman, 9 August 2016 03:38)
Absolutely, I have no intention to wade into the deep waters of your lies. Few people, if any, are familiar with your "fact" that 5% of Croatia's economy depends on exports to Serbia. Based on the 700M number that YOU provided, that is about 1% of the Croatia's economy. So the 5% that you originally wrote was a pure lie!
----------
Great to see that you are learning. After realising that Serbia boycotting Made in Croatia goods would not have any significant impact on Croatia, you now expanded to Croatian-owned stores. Something you did not clarify though... Should Serbs also boycott Serbia Made goods sold in Croatian-owned stores? What's going to be the impact on Croatia's and Serbia's economy if they do it? Or, as usual, you first state your wishes and then you try (and fail) to find facts supporting what you wrote.
My advice to you if you don't want to be exposed as a lier again and again is that you should check the facts first and them make recommendations, not the other way around :)
'You have only proven how weak the croat history is with your last post…you were crushed with my arguments… '
Dont think so, if anything its you that has been constantly losing argument after argument. You keep presenting new pieces of information - most of which contradict your previous examples. Its quite clear you go along with nationalist rhetoric without actually understanding or reading things properly for that matter. Youve only got yourself to blame for the whole you've been digging.
No sorry, I asked you to prove how Serbs are descended from Triballi, not copy and paste the wikipedia section which is completely off topic.
'I never disputed that there were a people called “chorobati” that lived in the area outlined in the map. This has nothing to do with the catholic and orthodox serbs living in all of dalmatia, Slavonia and the area you call Krajina'
Exactly, its relating to Croats living in dalmatia, slavonia and krajina. Thanks for proving my point yet again! I guess the 'servians' highlighted in the map have nothing to do with orthodox Croats living in what is now Serbia either :) . But please, explain what the geographic names and 'chorbati' refer to according to your 'sources', this should be good for a laugh
Please stick to what you know :) lol
(factman, 9 August 2016 16:05)
Absolutely... and this is what I know so far
factman, 8 August 2016 13:54 claims that Croatia's exports to Serbia represent 5% of Croatia's economy
factman, 8 August 2016 20:00 claims that Croatia exports to Serbia are over 700M
So, since the size of Croatia's economy is 48732M, then 700/48732 is about 1%, not 5%. So, based on the math that is taught is most of the world, either (i) you are are a liar or (ii) you did not even attend elementary school. Feel free to choose which of the two options above applies lol.
But don't pick up a fight with facts; they are very stubborn :)
You take quotes out of context and get upset over nothing. Please explain where I have been a nationalist
'typical Croat'
Nationalist and derogatory remark from you, you just keep proving my points for me :)
'show me one thing i have said that is not backed up/prove quotes is posted were wrong'
I have been doing that constantly, go back through the posts and see for yourself.
'I have shown plenty of examples of ancient sources calling serbs 'triballi'
Yes but I asked you to provide proof of Serbs being descedend from Triballi, which you have still failed to do
'historical census in Dalmatia'
I provided you with a demographic map made before your census which proves you have been lying and trying (poorly) to twist data. I think its you that is in denial about facts
'the map show no Croats in Dubrovnik or Split'
Doesn't show Serbs there either
'Serbia was east of the Drina nationalist rhetoric'
But your map clearly shows 'Servia' being east of the Drina in 814.
'you guys are sell outs, speak Serbain, shtokavian'
So know we are not Serbs anymore, rather our 'own kind?' Make up your mind. The shtovakian dialect is one of three Croats speak which form the Serbo-Croatian language
'and you so pathetically try to debate me'
Its not a debate when you are always wrong and I am pointing out your flaws - thats a lecture.
Its clear you have a serious comprehension problem. I will ask you for the last time:
Prove that Serbs were descended from Triballi.
No-one cares what names they were called. If you provide another source that only refers to whatever other groups called them and nothing that indicates what I am asking you, its proof you have nothing and have been lying or delusional the whole time.
amazing how serbs are both "settlers" and a foreign body in the balkans for nationalist croats and muslims in bosnia but are also "vlachs" who are indigenous people to the balkans! so settlers and indigenous at the same time! sickos!
(gg, 10 August 2016 02:03)
Both Croats and Serbs settled the area - no one is calling them a foregin body or indegenous. Not sure how you came up with that gem
Vlach is a term for either a romance-language speaking person in the Balkans, which later was adopted as a general term for an orthodox person.
Keep on getting frustrated over nothing, no one cares
gg
Please indicate when I said 'Serbs are a foreign body and Vlachs' - go on, show me where and when
‘ultimate contradiction and stupidity’
You have been basing your ideas on emotion and what you want history to be, rather than fact or how it actually is. You constantly google for examples which match your point of view - and after they have been disproven you try to dig up more, even if it contradicts your previous sources.
‘asking for proof of Serbs being called tribally and I have shown you a number of examples’
I have been asking for proof the Serbs were DESCNEDED from triballi, not what they were called. And you have still not gotten your head around what Im asking.
'19th century Austrian sources 96.18 percent Serb'
Did you actually read your own reference or did you just googl it and read the Krajina Chronicle instead? Take a deep breath and actually read the Austrian census – nice try. 'look at where Dubrovnik is/what kingdom it is part of'
It doesnt say its part of any kingdom - 'Chrobatia' and 'Servia' are just geogrpahic labels, remember? The grey region is listed as slavic inhabited, but doesnt state ethnic groups or ownership. You really look pathetic here - learn how to read a map.
'All Croats who speak Shtovakian are SERBS no question about that'
Wrong. I guess all Serbs who speak the Torlakian dialect are actually Bulgarian.
Keep making your points, I more than happy to minimize them to nothing and make you look more ridiculous than you are :)
Czechs dont teach their kids this, quite the opposite. Its a folklore chronicle written in rhyming verse, not a serious historical work. All your quote implies is that within 'Serbia' there was another country called 'Croatia' - doesnt state the Croats were descended from Serbs at all. Most scholars and other Czech folklore authors believe that 'white Croatia' and 'white Serbia' (the supposed regions of origin) were located to the east of the Czech Republic, not the south. Nor do they back Dalmil's theory.
De Administrando Imperio which was written several centuries prior proposes different theories of slavs, both Serbs and Croats. Considering it was written before the chronicle of Dalimil and seeing as though the Greeks were in closer proximity to their subjects, I know which one seems more credible. But please tell me, why is your chronicle correct and others are wrong?
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