Ataman: If Fomenko is right, your question will find a naturally obvious answer. That's the point, this is how logics principles work not the other way around.I think that Prof. Fomenko and Prof. Nosovskij are two outstanding researchers who have conducted a huge, huge interdisciplinary research. Unfortunately we are simply not too qualified to either confirm their theory or find any inconsistencies in their research. We can be fine connoisseurs of the "ancient" art, we can tell a Greek statue from a Roman one but we are talking about the author of 180 scientific publications, 26 monographs and textbooks on mathematics, we are talking about a specialist in geometry, topology and astronomics here. Finding an answer to your question would be the easiest thing in the world if we assume these two outstanding Russian researchers are right. As a professor of mine once said, Italy would have been a far better place to live in if the French needn't send back the Pope to Rome. Then, methinks, they probably needed to seize power throughout the entire old Europe and the rest is "history"...
ataman : "Повѣсть времѧньныхъ лѣтъ" of XIIth century is not the same as "Лицевой летописный свод" of 1568 - 1576. The Russian Kosovo Battle image was painted in second half of 16th century.
You're right but it was a technical mistake that changes nothing. It was writtenunder Ivan Grozny's survey vut it's the first mentioning of the battle nd the picture is the earliest though of 16 century. It changes little in my approach to the battle and the Balkan history as a hole. See the below link to find that I am not the only sceptic about Balkan legends.
"Повѣсть времѧньныхъ лѣтъ" of XIIth century is not the same as "Лицевой летописный свод" of 1568 - 1576. The Russian Kosovo Battle image was painted in second half of 16th century.
400 years were sacrificed to Fomenko's ideas.
Let's assume, Fomenko is right. Than why, on what purpose that (alleged) monumental and mega-expensive conspiracy project altering good 3000 years of history was done? That idea does not answer any unresolved questions - but arises a host of new ones.
Yugoslavja : I hereby have to repeat the link of the single medieval picture of the Kosovo Battle given in the famous Russian ensyclopedia of the 6-th century called ПОВЕСТЬ ВРЕМЕННЫХ ЛЕТ. I think it must be very interesting because it gives quite amazing details of the participants and the surrounding of the battlefield. Kosovo Battle is an important part of the Russian history as it was one of the several great battles of the disaster time (великая смута) of 1370 when the Apostolic Christianity was proclaimed by Dmitry aka Murad and 1415 when the Russians got united to reconquer Europe reflected as Reconquista in the false history. I don't know in which of the two Russian armies Serbs and other peoples of the region fought but I suppose that Serbs fought on Dmitry/Murad's side. Simply because they were a priviledged part of the Horde and it south wing known as the Ottomans. Turkic peoples never played a big role before 1826 when the Yanissaries were massacred. Please have a good look at the details of the below picture. Simpl because the next picture available must have been painted in 19 century when the battle was glorified.
The mummified dead bodies of the Great Kniazes/Khans (pharaohs before 19-th dynasty) and of their family members were transported along the Styx River (Mediterranean Sea) by Aaron/Haroon (Russian- хорон) to Misr now Egypt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Qs8-BkiLw
All graves of the Horde’s Kings of the first 5 Habsburgs (Новгород) are fake with Murat/Dmitry Donskoy's among them. In Russian history his death is never explained and there’s always a short sentence that he died in June 1389. It is very strange because since he headed the Horde in every big battle and was a 39 year old man with no health problems. No details why and where he died or why the burial cervices were led by a low ranking Archbishop of Trabesund but not by his Godfather St. Sergy Radonezhski or at least by the Russian Patriarch also of Greek origin. No one knows what the Trabesund Archbishop was doing in Moscow? The only reasonable explanation is that the Archbishop was part of the “Turkish” army while the burial services are to be led in 3 days.
Anyways in 14-th century there was a zero chance that the Great Kniaz could be buried outside the Imperial Cemetery in Geese Valley. Ships that delivered their bodies were left by the pyramids forever to enable them travel to Osiris aka Jesus Christ.
Jugoslavija : The earliest mentioning of the Kosovo Battle is in the famous Russian Повесть временных лет of Ivan Grozny.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
There you can also find the only medieval picture of the Battle. And if you have a good look t it you will find that the battle could merely be in this place. Too many towns and mountains!
Now tell me please which of the sides is “Serbian” and which is “Turkish” ? What I can tell for sure is that the left side with the red flag with Image of Edessa (Спас нерукотворный) is of Murat-1 aka Dmitry-1 aka Constantine-1.
Jugoslavija : You didn't answer the question, Murad-1 is buried in Kosovo unless that's a counterfeit according to your "history"
READ IT BETTER ! HE WAS BURRIED WHERE HE OUGHT TO BE BURRIED – ON THE IMPERIAL CEMETERY IN GEESE VALLEY. BEFORE IVAN GROZNY ALL TOP RURIKOVICI WERE BURRIED THERE. I AM TIRED TODAY BUT I’LL GIVE YOU LINKS.
Murad-1 aka Dmitry-1 Donskoy aka Constantine-1 the Great was buried together with all his ancestors in the Imperial Cemetery in Geese Valley, Egypt. It was a tradition left from the ancient Rome in Alexandria that passed to the Second Rome in Tsargrad and the Third Rome in Moscow. As I said it before the Russian Tsars had Byzantine roots from Octavian August. So some of the traditions were followed. Dead bodies of the Kniaz/Khans were mummified and transported to Egypt from all over the Earth. Their biographies were written by the Copt (CPT) clergymen who gave name to Egypt (GPT) though initial name of both Egypt and Cairo was Misr. Arabs still use only this word. Word PHRN + NAME was misinterpreted as PHARAOH. In fact it was a Russian word ПОХОРОН (PHRN) = BURRIED + NAME Copts were sent there for burial services only while Cherkassy Mamelukes were sent here to guard the Pyramids, the Cemetery and Hidjaz with Mecca and Medina cities. Cherkassy Horde that guarded Kaaba was called Kaaba Orda. In 1516 near Aleppo they were defeated by Sultan Selim –I. So many of them had to return to Caucasus. Today this people is known here as КАБАРДИНЦЫ= КААБА ОРДЫНЦЫ= KAABA HORDE. Others stayed to guard the sites until 1817 when 800 top Mamelukes were massacred in Cairo by the Brits. It was a sad story because Copts were the next to suffer.
(rote, 20 May 2016 00:11)
You didn't answer the question, Murad-1 is buried in Kosovo unless that's a counterfeit according to your "history"
Accounts of how Murad died are also confusing, just as there are contradictory accounts about the outcome of the battle. Obilic is most likely an invention.
(Nikolle, 20 May 2016 09:06)
Unlikely as Murad-1 did not die of a heart attack and is buried in Kosovo and the name Obelic has been passed down the centuries.
No one by the name of Milos Obilic is mentioned in the earliest sources on the battle. He is mentioned long after anyone who ever took part in was dead. There's no evidence that this person existed. Accounts of how Murad died are also confusing, just as there are contradictory accounts about the outcome of the battle. Obilic is most likely an invention.
I have a strong sympathy towards Croats and v.v.
But I have to admit, this time your Vinjak was not the quality I really like, Skanderbeu is way better. If you do not drink Serbian lozovača - please do yourself a favor and switch to Skanderbeu.
By the way - a while ago I did read several sources and there is indeed no 100% proof that Milos Obilic did ever exist. We do not know, how Tsar Lazar and his counterpart did die, but all sources agree, both rulers were killed during the battle.
We do not even know who won the battle because the Christians did celebrate after the battle.
One is certain: the fate was sealed later in August of the same year because the widow of Lazar asked Turks to help her against invading army of Emperor Sigismund of Luxemburg.
So if Serbs did lose, than they lost the Kosovo Battle against Sigismund, not the Turks.
Probably time to stop celebrate Sigismund as holy anti-Turkish emperor - when in the fact he was responsible for the loss of Serbia and Bosnia (it is undisputed, he killed the entire Bosnian nobility and literally delivered Bosnia to Turks).
Jugoslavija: So tell me ROTE and your alternative history, why would the Ottoman empire being so vast bury Murad in Kosovo and not take him back
Murad-1 aka Dmitry-1 Donskoy aka Constantine-1 the Great was buried together with all his ancestors in the Imperial Cemetery in Geese Valley, Egypt. It was a tradition left from the ancient Rome in Alexandria that passed to the Second Rome in Tsargrad and the Third Rome in Moscow. As I said it before the Russian Tsars had Byzantine roots from Octavian August. So some of the traditions were followed. Dead bodies of the Kniaz/Khans were mummified and transported to Egypt from all over the Earth. Their biographies were written by the Copt (CPT) clergymen who gave name to Egypt (GPT) though initial name of both Egypt and Cairo was Misr. Arabs still use only this word. Word PHRN + NAME was misinterpreted as PHARAOH. In fact it was a Russian word ПОХОРОН (PHRN) = BURRIED + NAME Copts were sent there for burial services only while Cherkassy Mamelukes were sent here to guard the Pyramids, the Cemetery and Hidjaz with Mecca and Medina cities. Cherkassy Horde that guarded Kaaba was called Kaaba Orda. In 1516 near Aleppo they were defeated by Sultan Selim –I. So many of them had to return to Caucasus. Today this people is known here as КАБАРДИНЦЫ= КААБА ОРДЫНЦЫ= KAABA HORDE. Others stayed to guard the sites until 1817 when 800 top Mamelukes were massacred in Cairo by the Brits. It was a sad story because Copts were the next to suffer.
Sj : Sadly they were a people that never put anything on paper and you now claim Albanians are the true Illyrians. … Albanians can now claim they built the Parthenon, Delphi and all that material exhibited in the Archaeological Museum in Athens is actually Albano/Illyrian history.
I don’t think that you sarcasm is good here as we know almost nothing about the histories of the Greeks and the Shqips and our own. "Because I said so" is the main argument used. I saw pictures of the Parthenon after it was liberated in 19 century. It looked different with minarets and private houses around and the Mosque of Mariam (The Virgin) inside. If we change our tune and start to supply one another with old documents and artefacts we would move better. 80% of what we think is our imagination. On old maps I saw word "Greece" only in one place and it was Crete Island while on Greek territory was marked as Latina. Greeks were a sea nation that inhabited all the shores of the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. I don’t know what has happened to those Greeks and I am not sure that all current Greeks were Greeks indeed. Meanwhile we can see that genetically Shqips and the Greeks are close peoples with big Semite component. Have no idea of the Shqiptarian but the Greek language is a composition of different languages as they say. It’s a young language that appeared about 190 years ago while their “medieval Greek” is really old. But they deny it because it will ruin their Oldenburg history.
Free: Skanderbeg was born in an Orthodox family, was raised as a Muslim and died as a Catholic.
Of course his life story has many contradictions and fantastic episodes. Yet it happens to most of the historical persons. Sometimes misunderstanding arises because we measure the old times with our current mentality. In fact the medieval times were different. Geographic places were moved on the map. Peoples and kings had several names. European history took many toponyms from the Ottomans who used Arab and Iranian words. So this Skanderbek can be a reflection of Mehmet II or Tamerlane whose capitol was either in Tiraspol or Tirana. Balkan Peninsula was the mainland Byzantine and of the Ottomans while we are told as if it was a colony of the Byzantine and then the Ottomans. Sometimes we fail to see evident things. Say Skanderbeu means Alexander Bek. But because all believe that Alexander lived long ago nobody even considers such a version. Almost often top leaders had several names. See 9 names of Tamerlane from the Russian Wikipedia: Великий Эмир, Бек, Мирза, Абу Мансур, Абу Фатих, Абу Гази, Сахиб-и Кирани, Хаган, Гете Стани, Султан, Искандар Ул Ахад, Гурган. Iskandar and Bek are two of them. But he was a Russian Cossack from the Urals so he must had a Russian name too. I mean our sarcasm about things that are not quite evident may look funny. All of us are misled by the historians …
There's no credible evidence that Milos Obilic existed, certainly no one by that name, he is only ever mentioned in poetry, so these sort of discussions about a non existent person should be confined to the sphere of literature, not history
(Nikolle, 18 May 2016 12:18)
Yes, but Murad's grave is in Kosovo-Polje so somebody killed him and it would not have been in battle. The story goes Milos Obelic went to pay homage to King Murad and took out a knife and slit open his stomach. Many of you need to have your brains slit open.
So tell me ROTE and your alternative history, why would the Ottoman empire being so vast bury Murad in Kosovo and not take him back for burial in Turkey or Russia where you think that Muslims and Slavs were one of the same.
Lenocka, oh Lenocka, thought you'd moved to greener pastures gorgeous!! What a relief, Lenocka! I think everybody here missed your thoughtful insights. Nasha djevushka Lenocka!!
Yes Illyrian history. Sadly they were a people that never put anything on paper and you now claim Albanians are the true Illyrians. You have lived in Kosovo since life began but left NOTHING to support that claim, not even a cave painting.
As I said before the Albanians can now claim they built the Parthenon, Delphi and all that material exhibited in the Archaeological Museum in Athens is actually Albano/Illyrian history. Once again it’s always the people with little history or culture that make the biggest claims and Croats and Albanians are identical in that.
Let me give you some advice, shutting up is the best form of medicine.
My unbiased theory of Serbs is that they were Serfs that escaped to the deep dark Balkan mountains. As the Roman empire was made of half of slaves. One day some slave traders were looking for escaped Serfs and they went to Serfia aka "Serbia". They asked the head of the Serfs are you the escaped Serfs. Him having a slyest idea said no we are Serbs. So that is how they the Serfs became Serbs what a history.
(Lenard, 19 May 2016 09:38)
Lenny, one problem with your theory. You are stock raving mad.
My unbiased theory of Serbs is that they were Serfs that escaped to the deep dark Balkan mountains. As the Roman empire was made of half of slaves. One day some slave traders were looking for escaped Serfs and they went to Serfia aka "Serbia". They asked the head of the Serfs are you the escaped Serfs. Him having a slyest idea said no we are Serbs. So that is how they the Serfs became Serbs what a history.
Albanians have stolen everything else from serbs and its neighbours so why not Milos identity as well. However in Albania Milos is called Milosi Obilici hahaha!
I have no idea of knowing whether Obilic existed, but one thing is for sure... there were not many Albanians fighting during the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. Not many on the Serb side or Turk side. I think that shows you Albanians were just not very present in Kosovo-Metohija at the time and came during the Ottoman period. That is not hating it's just pointing out a fact like even this Albanian Imam from Prizren did [link]
(Ari Gold, 18 May 2016 16:51)
Ah yes. Another Serb "fact". And it must be true because a D!%&khead of the Muslim persuasion agrees with a D!%&khead of the Orthodox persuasion. We came with the Turks, but Turks allowed Serb public schools but if one dared teach Albanian the death penalty was prompt. Me thinks the Turks by protecting the Serbs were protecting their own kin, you know of the Iranian persuasion.You were good allies. Acting like you were fight, but lose a few "battles", marry the daughters to their princes. Meanwhile the Albanians and the Hungarians are the only ones fighting them off for decades. Serbs enjoy the privileges from their Turkish kinsmen.
Don`t know about Obilic. He maybe was Serbian, or Albanian or perhaps a pissed off Turkish soldier. Does it make any difference?
Skanderbeg was born in an Orthodox family, was raised as a Muslim and died as a Catholic. Come on, can you find a Serbian or a Greek who renounced his religion easier than changing his pants? Only this fact is more than enough to admit he was an Albanian. Lol.
Why such stupidity makes it past an editors desk is the question? I think the person who posted on you tube, Do Dogs Have Brains , was also involved in this article.
The past is real and immutable. You don't just make things up in history to sustain a narrative or uphold national claims. History is the science of exploring, exposing and communicating the past as real. But part of history is myth and beliefs have history. It is real and immutable that in history people hold beliefs that are not true. What is even worse is that as a matter of history, people lie in order to uphold beliefs that are not true.
Anti-semitism is a perfect example. Two popular lies told about the Jewish people are the existence of evidence of a global Jewish conspiracy in a book known as the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and that there is such a thing as Palestinians, a people who are not now, nor have ever been Jewish who are native to the region now known as Israel.
To see abuses to history and young minds similar to what we see here try,
"The Balkans produce more history than they can consume" Churchill.
Writing a common history text book is a great initiative but it would have to be scientific work, independent and without compromise to please this or that nation.
I have hope that it might happen as all the crazy nuts seem to have left Balkans and be living in other countries as evidenced by comments here. There, they can peddle their pet theories while abusing the welfare system of their host country. Please don't come back!
PS: Rote is truly entertaining material, I wish I knew if it is the smoking or the hard vodka that makes him such a nice chap.
Its your Albos that make stupid claims such as being in the Balkans since time began, how they built the churches in Kosovo then we have claims by your lot that Constantine or his mother/grandmother was Albanian and now Milos Obilic.
(sj
Dear sj,
Just the other day I read a piece which reminded me about you. It was about a tribe somewhere on the Pacific Ocean that hasn't had contact with the outside world in decades.
To them, the internet doesn't exist along with many other modern technologies. Just because they're ignorant about certain things it doesn't mean they're untrue.
sj, just because you're ignorant about the Illyrian/Albanian history it doesn't mean others are as well.
O la la, Tirana journalists lecturing on living together… Is this the same Ben Andoni who was wandering around Belgrade a year ago, chatting with Serbs who were studying Albanian in Belgrade, and wondering how the heck 60.000 Albos had already applied for the Serbian citizenship and how come that Kosovo Albanians prefer Serbia’s facilities for cosmetic surgery?
http://www.gazetatema.net/web/2015/07/03/reportazhi-beograd-inati-mbetet-me-kosoven/
"but one thing is for sure"...that thing isn't sure at all, that's just you wishing for certainty. there are only two sure things that are known about the Battle of Kosovo, that Lazar and the Sultan died, that's it. everything else has been embroiled in myth. There's no evidence that Brankovic defected either
We know too little about the ancient times to insist that this one was for real and that one was fake. How do you know that Obilic existed and that he killed Murad-1? How do you know it was a battle between Serbs and Turks? Where did they come from if Constantinople was not seized yet in 1389? We are told that they came to the Balkans from Anatolia where they seized the Beiliks and then Tsargrad in 1453. So I wonder if their army was an airborne ? Also please explain if the “turks” had a Mongol background where was their famous cavalry on the Kosovo Field? Why drozd is a drozd in all Slavic languages but in Serbian it was Kos? Why so many battles as if happened in this place? Why Belgrade is interpreted as White City if it wasn’t made of white stones? Why a village in Russian Bashkortostan also has the name of Balkan ? In old manuscripts these two words were written as BLGRD and BLKN. Are you blind not to see that the beginning of the words is the same Bal/Bel like Balbek in Crimea or Baalbek in Lebanon or Bel Gora and Temple of Bal in Palmira? Hitler has wiped off the map of Germany about 1200 Slavic toponyms but hundreds still survived all over the continent. Yet we refuse to see them fighting one another without any proof on both sides. On the Big Stamp of Ivan Grozny there were 12 main lands that obeyed him with only one of then on Balkans. It was Bulgaria and was painted on all maps where Serbia is while Romania was written where Bulgaria is.
I gave you my like because I think close to what you wrote though without sarcasm. This is how Ainu people of Japan looked in early 20—th century. Also try to read the text.
Another good text with very good portrays of medieval kings of Asia and their wives will disappoint you. Because almost all were Slavs and thus maybe Serbs. Among the portrays you will find Ali (Baba Ali) whom the shia pray, the emperor Seguns = Hoguns/Kaoguns of Japan, Mongol Mamai, Aladin, Khans/Hams of Tartaria, Siam (Thailand), of Chinese Tartaria (Van and Han dynasties) ect.
Please note that most portrays were made by western painters and printed in western books. Let me know and I’ll give you more links with portrays of the Slavic kings of the world. Next time with Hundustan, Indochina and America. Hope you became proud of your neighborhood!
serbs called him Kopilovic in their books of just yesterday Kopil is Turkish word....newly obtained by serb revisionist historian ....The sultan said he would bastardsize all involved in the murder and also one other reason for mostly mass conversion of religions of all that took part in the battle of Kosova ,why are you Brankovic's not Muslim ?
I have no idea of knowing whether Obilic existed, but one thing is for sure... there were not many Albanians fighting during the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. Not many on the Serb side or Turk side. I think that shows you Albanians were just not very present in Kosovo-Metohija at the time and came during the Ottoman period. That is not hating it's just pointing out a fact like even this Albanian Imam from Prizren did http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/kosovo-imam-charged-with-offending-albanian-nation
There's no credible evidence that Milos Obilic existed, certainly no one by that name, he is only ever mentioned in poetry, so these sort of discussions about a non existent person should be confined to the sphere of literature, not history
(Nikolle, 18 May 2016 12:18)
Exactly.
But while it's exposed to the comment section we might as well have some fun.
I hear Obilic was actually a Croatian Muslim who identified as a Hungarian.
Its your Albos that make stupid claims such as being in the Balkans since time began, how they built the churches in Kosovo then we have claims by your lot that Constantine or his mother/grandmother was Albanian and now Milos Obilic. As I said before Albos and Croats are very similar. It’s always the ones who have little to no history of their own they then make it up.
At least Serbs admit that Constantine was born in Nis and nothing else. Now if there was an Albo site I would imagine you would use that but there isn’t one so you come onto a Serb site LOL.
Perhaps the Ming dynasty is also of Albanian background.
(sj, 18 May 2016 12:29)
The Mingovic dynasty was a Serb dynasty. It was created when Serbs were on the way to Tokyo where they eventually owned it for millennia. You know the same way Jesus Kristovic was a Serb with a Serb mother, Marica, and thats how the Serbs became the chosen people. Chosen to do what, nobody knows, but someone chose them for something.
Of course the history books must be unified so that they do not look as if Balkan states live on different planets. Yet I doubt that it’s a good idea because too many conflicts remain frozen while such a work can only worsen the status quo. None of the Balkan states had enjoyed own statehood even a single day before 1877. Everything written in your textbooks is absolute BS scheduled by the Oldenburgs. Nobody bothers of any proof. So we have 8 battles on Kosovo field, we have Skanderbeu and his 300 Spartans challenging Mehmet II himself, Serbs being proud that their Obilic killed the great Russian Kniaz St. Dmitry-1 Donskoy aka Sultan Murat-1 ect. All over the Earth history was not only falsified but fragmented as well. So that one have no general picture of what was happening parallel to an event in the past. But the biggest tool of the falsificators is SILENCE. If there’s something they cannot explain they stop to see it like the pyramids in France, China, Antarctica ect. Turkey is the heart of civilization thanks to the Byzantine and the Great Horde. So there are plenty of castles and forts of the ancient times. They dig something out and say – this is Troy and this is Efes. So do the Balkan peoples like the Viminacium near Belgrade. Where was it written that this is Efes or Viminacium? NOWHERE! Such are the fairy tales we are fed with. Then we cry Allah Akbar and fight one another. Very sad.
There's no credible evidence that Milos Obilic existed, certainly no one by that name, he is only ever mentioned in poetry, so these sort of discussions about a non existent person should be confined to the sphere of literature, not history
Another NGO trying to recreate the old Yugoslavia of brotherhood and unity only this time they include Albania LOL. They broke Humpty Dumpty and now they are trying to glue back again. There is an old saying that a camel is actually a horse designed by a committee so to please all sides they came out with this lumpy animal.
I can imagine being in the room of this NGO and discussions taking place – it would be so funny if it was not sad. And the west actually wonders why it’s disappearing down their own orifice LOL.
“Albanian journalist Ben Andoni, who noted that as a student of history, he was taught that "Milos Obilic was Albanian.
Yeah according to Croats, Sumerian Croats created writing while Egyptian Croats built the pyramids and Croatian Romans built the colosseum. Meanwhile the Albanians who have lived in the region since pre days of the dinosaurs built everything including the Parthenon, Delphi and now Milos Obilic is an Albanian.
Perhaps the Ming dynasty is also of Albanian background.
Another NGO trying to recreate the old Yugoslavia of brotherhood and unity only this time they include Albania LOL. They broke Humpty Dumpty and now they are trying to glue back again. There is an old saying that a camel is actually a horse designed by a committee so to please all sides they came out with this lumpy animal.
I can imagine being in the room of this NGO and discussions taking place – it would be so funny if it was not sad. And the west actually wonders why it’s disappearing down their own orifice LOL.
“Albanian journalist Ben Andoni, who noted that as a student of history, he was taught that "Milos Obilic was Albanian.
Yeah according to Croats, Sumerian Croats created writing while Egyptian Croats built the pyramids and Croatian Romans built the colosseum. Meanwhile the Albanians who have lived in the region since pre days of the dinosaurs built everything including the Parthenon, Delphi and now Milos Obilic is an Albanian.
Perhaps the Ming dynasty is also of Albanian background.
Its your Albos that make stupid claims such as being in the Balkans since time began, how they built the churches in Kosovo then we have claims by your lot that Constantine or his mother/grandmother was Albanian and now Milos Obilic. As I said before Albos and Croats are very similar. It’s always the ones who have little to no history of their own they then make it up.
At least Serbs admit that Constantine was born in Nis and nothing else. Now if there was an Albo site I would imagine you would use that but there isn’t one so you come onto a Serb site LOL.
Perhaps the Ming dynasty is also of Albanian background.
(sj, 18 May 2016 12:29)
The Mingovic dynasty was a Serb dynasty. It was created when Serbs were on the way to Tokyo where they eventually owned it for millennia. You know the same way Jesus Kristovic was a Serb with a Serb mother, Marica, and thats how the Serbs became the chosen people. Chosen to do what, nobody knows, but someone chose them for something.
I have no idea of knowing whether Obilic existed, but one thing is for sure... there were not many Albanians fighting during the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. Not many on the Serb side or Turk side. I think that shows you Albanians were just not very present in Kosovo-Metohija at the time and came during the Ottoman period. That is not hating it's just pointing out a fact like even this Albanian Imam from Prizren did http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/kosovo-imam-charged-with-offending-albanian-nation
serbs called him Kopilovic in their books of just yesterday Kopil is Turkish word....newly obtained by serb revisionist historian ....The sultan said he would bastardsize all involved in the murder and also one other reason for mostly mass conversion of religions of all that took part in the battle of Kosova ,why are you Brankovic's not Muslim ?
There's no credible evidence that Milos Obilic existed, certainly no one by that name, he is only ever mentioned in poetry, so these sort of discussions about a non existent person should be confined to the sphere of literature, not history
"The Balkans produce more history than they can consume" Churchill.
Writing a common history text book is a great initiative but it would have to be scientific work, independent and without compromise to please this or that nation.
I have hope that it might happen as all the crazy nuts seem to have left Balkans and be living in other countries as evidenced by comments here. There, they can peddle their pet theories while abusing the welfare system of their host country. Please don't come back!
PS: Rote is truly entertaining material, I wish I knew if it is the smoking or the hard vodka that makes him such a nice chap.
Albanians have stolen everything else from serbs and its neighbours so why not Milos identity as well. However in Albania Milos is called Milosi Obilici hahaha!
My unbiased theory of Serbs is that they were Serfs that escaped to the deep dark Balkan mountains. As the Roman empire was made of half of slaves. One day some slave traders were looking for escaped Serfs and they went to Serfia aka "Serbia". They asked the head of the Serfs are you the escaped Serfs. Him having a slyest idea said no we are Serbs. So that is how they the Serfs became Serbs what a history.
(Lenard, 19 May 2016 09:38)
Lenny, one problem with your theory. You are stock raving mad.
No one by the name of Milos Obilic is mentioned in the earliest sources on the battle. He is mentioned long after anyone who ever took part in was dead. There's no evidence that this person existed. Accounts of how Murad died are also confusing, just as there are contradictory accounts about the outcome of the battle. Obilic is most likely an invention.
Its your Albos that make stupid claims such as being in the Balkans since time began, how they built the churches in Kosovo then we have claims by your lot that Constantine or his mother/grandmother was Albanian and now Milos Obilic.
(sj
Dear sj,
Just the other day I read a piece which reminded me about you. It was about a tribe somewhere on the Pacific Ocean that hasn't had contact with the outside world in decades.
To them, the internet doesn't exist along with many other modern technologies. Just because they're ignorant about certain things it doesn't mean they're untrue.
sj, just because you're ignorant about the Illyrian/Albanian history it doesn't mean others are as well.
"but one thing is for sure"...that thing isn't sure at all, that's just you wishing for certainty. there are only two sure things that are known about the Battle of Kosovo, that Lazar and the Sultan died, that's it. everything else has been embroiled in myth. There's no evidence that Brankovic defected either
The past is real and immutable. You don't just make things up in history to sustain a narrative or uphold national claims. History is the science of exploring, exposing and communicating the past as real. But part of history is myth and beliefs have history. It is real and immutable that in history people hold beliefs that are not true. What is even worse is that as a matter of history, people lie in order to uphold beliefs that are not true.
Anti-semitism is a perfect example. Two popular lies told about the Jewish people are the existence of evidence of a global Jewish conspiracy in a book known as the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and that there is such a thing as Palestinians, a people who are not now, nor have ever been Jewish who are native to the region now known as Israel.
To see abuses to history and young minds similar to what we see here try,
My unbiased theory of Serbs is that they were Serfs that escaped to the deep dark Balkan mountains. As the Roman empire was made of half of slaves. One day some slave traders were looking for escaped Serfs and they went to Serfia aka "Serbia". They asked the head of the Serfs are you the escaped Serfs. Him having a slyest idea said no we are Serbs. So that is how they the Serfs became Serbs what a history.
There's no credible evidence that Milos Obilic existed, certainly no one by that name, he is only ever mentioned in poetry, so these sort of discussions about a non existent person should be confined to the sphere of literature, not history
(Nikolle, 18 May 2016 12:18)
Exactly.
But while it's exposed to the comment section we might as well have some fun.
I hear Obilic was actually a Croatian Muslim who identified as a Hungarian.
Yes Illyrian history. Sadly they were a people that never put anything on paper and you now claim Albanians are the true Illyrians. You have lived in Kosovo since life began but left NOTHING to support that claim, not even a cave painting.
As I said before the Albanians can now claim they built the Parthenon, Delphi and all that material exhibited in the Archaeological Museum in Athens is actually Albano/Illyrian history. Once again it’s always the people with little history or culture that make the biggest claims and Croats and Albanians are identical in that.
Let me give you some advice, shutting up is the best form of medicine.
"Повѣсть времѧньныхъ лѣтъ" of XIIth century is not the same as "Лицевой летописный свод" of 1568 - 1576. The Russian Kosovo Battle image was painted in second half of 16th century.
400 years were sacrificed to Fomenko's ideas.
Let's assume, Fomenko is right. Than why, on what purpose that (alleged) monumental and mega-expensive conspiracy project altering good 3000 years of history was done? That idea does not answer any unresolved questions - but arises a host of new ones.
Don`t know about Obilic. He maybe was Serbian, or Albanian or perhaps a pissed off Turkish soldier. Does it make any difference?
Skanderbeg was born in an Orthodox family, was raised as a Muslim and died as a Catholic. Come on, can you find a Serbian or a Greek who renounced his religion easier than changing his pants? Only this fact is more than enough to admit he was an Albanian. Lol.
I have no idea of knowing whether Obilic existed, but one thing is for sure... there were not many Albanians fighting during the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. Not many on the Serb side or Turk side. I think that shows you Albanians were just not very present in Kosovo-Metohija at the time and came during the Ottoman period. That is not hating it's just pointing out a fact like even this Albanian Imam from Prizren did [link]
(Ari Gold, 18 May 2016 16:51)
Ah yes. Another Serb "fact". And it must be true because a D!%&khead of the Muslim persuasion agrees with a D!%&khead of the Orthodox persuasion. We came with the Turks, but Turks allowed Serb public schools but if one dared teach Albanian the death penalty was prompt. Me thinks the Turks by protecting the Serbs were protecting their own kin, you know of the Iranian persuasion.You were good allies. Acting like you were fight, but lose a few "battles", marry the daughters to their princes. Meanwhile the Albanians and the Hungarians are the only ones fighting them off for decades. Serbs enjoy the privileges from their Turkish kinsmen.
There's no credible evidence that Milos Obilic existed, certainly no one by that name, he is only ever mentioned in poetry, so these sort of discussions about a non existent person should be confined to the sphere of literature, not history
(Nikolle, 18 May 2016 12:18)
Yes, but Murad's grave is in Kosovo-Polje so somebody killed him and it would not have been in battle. The story goes Milos Obelic went to pay homage to King Murad and took out a knife and slit open his stomach. Many of you need to have your brains slit open.
So tell me ROTE and your alternative history, why would the Ottoman empire being so vast bury Murad in Kosovo and not take him back for burial in Turkey or Russia where you think that Muslims and Slavs were one of the same.
Accounts of how Murad died are also confusing, just as there are contradictory accounts about the outcome of the battle. Obilic is most likely an invention.
(Nikolle, 20 May 2016 09:06)
Unlikely as Murad-1 did not die of a heart attack and is buried in Kosovo and the name Obelic has been passed down the centuries.
We know too little about the ancient times to insist that this one was for real and that one was fake. How do you know that Obilic existed and that he killed Murad-1? How do you know it was a battle between Serbs and Turks? Where did they come from if Constantinople was not seized yet in 1389? We are told that they came to the Balkans from Anatolia where they seized the Beiliks and then Tsargrad in 1453. So I wonder if their army was an airborne ? Also please explain if the “turks” had a Mongol background where was their famous cavalry on the Kosovo Field? Why drozd is a drozd in all Slavic languages but in Serbian it was Kos? Why so many battles as if happened in this place? Why Belgrade is interpreted as White City if it wasn’t made of white stones? Why a village in Russian Bashkortostan also has the name of Balkan ? In old manuscripts these two words were written as BLGRD and BLKN. Are you blind not to see that the beginning of the words is the same Bal/Bel like Balbek in Crimea or Baalbek in Lebanon or Bel Gora and Temple of Bal in Palmira? Hitler has wiped off the map of Germany about 1200 Slavic toponyms but hundreds still survived all over the continent. Yet we refuse to see them fighting one another without any proof on both sides. On the Big Stamp of Ivan Grozny there were 12 main lands that obeyed him with only one of then on Balkans. It was Bulgaria and was painted on all maps where Serbia is while Romania was written where Bulgaria is.
By the way - a while ago I did read several sources and there is indeed no 100% proof that Milos Obilic did ever exist. We do not know, how Tsar Lazar and his counterpart did die, but all sources agree, both rulers were killed during the battle.
We do not even know who won the battle because the Christians did celebrate after the battle.
One is certain: the fate was sealed later in August of the same year because the widow of Lazar asked Turks to help her against invading army of Emperor Sigismund of Luxemburg.
So if Serbs did lose, than they lost the Kosovo Battle against Sigismund, not the Turks.
Probably time to stop celebrate Sigismund as holy anti-Turkish emperor - when in the fact he was responsible for the loss of Serbia and Bosnia (it is undisputed, he killed the entire Bosnian nobility and literally delivered Bosnia to Turks).
Murad-1 aka Dmitry-1 Donskoy aka Constantine-1 the Great was buried together with all his ancestors in the Imperial Cemetery in Geese Valley, Egypt. It was a tradition left from the ancient Rome in Alexandria that passed to the Second Rome in Tsargrad and the Third Rome in Moscow. As I said it before the Russian Tsars had Byzantine roots from Octavian August. So some of the traditions were followed. Dead bodies of the Kniaz/Khans were mummified and transported to Egypt from all over the Earth. Their biographies were written by the Copt (CPT) clergymen who gave name to Egypt (GPT) though initial name of both Egypt and Cairo was Misr. Arabs still use only this word. Word PHRN + NAME was misinterpreted as PHARAOH. In fact it was a Russian word ПОХОРОН (PHRN) = BURRIED + NAME Copts were sent there for burial services only while Cherkassy Mamelukes were sent here to guard the Pyramids, the Cemetery and Hidjaz with Mecca and Medina cities. Cherkassy Horde that guarded Kaaba was called Kaaba Orda. In 1516 near Aleppo they were defeated by Sultan Selim –I. So many of them had to return to Caucasus. Today this people is known here as КАБАРДИНЦЫ= КААБА ОРДЫНЦЫ= KAABA HORDE. Others stayed to guard the sites until 1817 when 800 top Mamelukes were massacred in Cairo by the Brits. It was a sad story because Copts were the next to suffer.
(rote, 20 May 2016 00:11)
You didn't answer the question, Murad-1 is buried in Kosovo unless that's a counterfeit according to your "history"
Of course the history books must be unified so that they do not look as if Balkan states live on different planets. Yet I doubt that it’s a good idea because too many conflicts remain frozen while such a work can only worsen the status quo. None of the Balkan states had enjoyed own statehood even a single day before 1877. Everything written in your textbooks is absolute BS scheduled by the Oldenburgs. Nobody bothers of any proof. So we have 8 battles on Kosovo field, we have Skanderbeu and his 300 Spartans challenging Mehmet II himself, Serbs being proud that their Obilic killed the great Russian Kniaz St. Dmitry-1 Donskoy aka Sultan Murat-1 ect. All over the Earth history was not only falsified but fragmented as well. So that one have no general picture of what was happening parallel to an event in the past. But the biggest tool of the falsificators is SILENCE. If there’s something they cannot explain they stop to see it like the pyramids in France, China, Antarctica ect. Turkey is the heart of civilization thanks to the Byzantine and the Great Horde. So there are plenty of castles and forts of the ancient times. They dig something out and say – this is Troy and this is Efes. So do the Balkan peoples like the Viminacium near Belgrade. Where was it written that this is Efes or Viminacium? NOWHERE! Such are the fairy tales we are fed with. Then we cry Allah Akbar and fight one another. Very sad.
O la la, Tirana journalists lecturing on living together… Is this the same Ben Andoni who was wandering around Belgrade a year ago, chatting with Serbs who were studying Albanian in Belgrade, and wondering how the heck 60.000 Albos had already applied for the Serbian citizenship and how come that Kosovo Albanians prefer Serbia’s facilities for cosmetic surgery?
http://www.gazetatema.net/web/2015/07/03/reportazhi-beograd-inati-mbetet-me-kosoven/
Why such stupidity makes it past an editors desk is the question? I think the person who posted on you tube, Do Dogs Have Brains , was also involved in this article.
I have a strong sympathy towards Croats and v.v.
But I have to admit, this time your Vinjak was not the quality I really like, Skanderbeu is way better. If you do not drink Serbian lozovača - please do yourself a favor and switch to Skanderbeu.
I gave you my like because I think close to what you wrote though without sarcasm. This is how Ainu people of Japan looked in early 20—th century. Also try to read the text.
Another good text with very good portrays of medieval kings of Asia and their wives will disappoint you. Because almost all were Slavs and thus maybe Serbs. Among the portrays you will find Ali (Baba Ali) whom the shia pray, the emperor Seguns = Hoguns/Kaoguns of Japan, Mongol Mamai, Aladin, Khans/Hams of Tartaria, Siam (Thailand), of Chinese Tartaria (Van and Han dynasties) ect.
Please note that most portrays were made by western painters and printed in western books. Let me know and I’ll give you more links with portrays of the Slavic kings of the world. Next time with Hundustan, Indochina and America. Hope you became proud of your neighborhood!
Sj : Sadly they were a people that never put anything on paper and you now claim Albanians are the true Illyrians. … Albanians can now claim they built the Parthenon, Delphi and all that material exhibited in the Archaeological Museum in Athens is actually Albano/Illyrian history.
I don’t think that you sarcasm is good here as we know almost nothing about the histories of the Greeks and the Shqips and our own. "Because I said so" is the main argument used. I saw pictures of the Parthenon after it was liberated in 19 century. It looked different with minarets and private houses around and the Mosque of Mariam (The Virgin) inside. If we change our tune and start to supply one another with old documents and artefacts we would move better. 80% of what we think is our imagination. On old maps I saw word "Greece" only in one place and it was Crete Island while on Greek territory was marked as Latina. Greeks were a sea nation that inhabited all the shores of the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. I don’t know what has happened to those Greeks and I am not sure that all current Greeks were Greeks indeed. Meanwhile we can see that genetically Shqips and the Greeks are close peoples with big Semite component. Have no idea of the Shqiptarian but the Greek language is a composition of different languages as they say. It’s a young language that appeared about 190 years ago while their “medieval Greek” is really old. But they deny it because it will ruin their Oldenburg history.
Ataman: If Fomenko is right, your question will find a naturally obvious answer. That's the point, this is how logics principles work not the other way around.I think that Prof. Fomenko and Prof. Nosovskij are two outstanding researchers who have conducted a huge, huge interdisciplinary research. Unfortunately we are simply not too qualified to either confirm their theory or find any inconsistencies in their research. We can be fine connoisseurs of the "ancient" art, we can tell a Greek statue from a Roman one but we are talking about the author of 180 scientific publications, 26 monographs and textbooks on mathematics, we are talking about a specialist in geometry, topology and astronomics here. Finding an answer to your question would be the easiest thing in the world if we assume these two outstanding Russian researchers are right. As a professor of mine once said, Italy would have been a far better place to live in if the French needn't send back the Pope to Rome. Then, methinks, they probably needed to seize power throughout the entire old Europe and the rest is "history"...
The mummified dead bodies of the Great Kniazes/Khans (pharaohs before 19-th dynasty) and of their family members were transported along the Styx River (Mediterranean Sea) by Aaron/Haroon (Russian- хорон) to Misr now Egypt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Qs8-BkiLw
All graves of the Horde’s Kings of the first 5 Habsburgs (Новгород) are fake with Murat/Dmitry Donskoy's among them. In Russian history his death is never explained and there’s always a short sentence that he died in June 1389. It is very strange because since he headed the Horde in every big battle and was a 39 year old man with no health problems. No details why and where he died or why the burial cervices were led by a low ranking Archbishop of Trabesund but not by his Godfather St. Sergy Radonezhski or at least by the Russian Patriarch also of Greek origin. No one knows what the Trabesund Archbishop was doing in Moscow? The only reasonable explanation is that the Archbishop was part of the “Turkish” army while the burial services are to be led in 3 days.
Anyways in 14-th century there was a zero chance that the Great Kniaz could be buried outside the Imperial Cemetery in Geese Valley. Ships that delivered their bodies were left by the pyramids forever to enable them travel to Osiris aka Jesus Christ.
ataman : "Повѣсть времѧньныхъ лѣтъ" of XIIth century is not the same as "Лицевой летописный свод" of 1568 - 1576. The Russian Kosovo Battle image was painted in second half of 16th century.
You're right but it was a technical mistake that changes nothing. It was writtenunder Ivan Grozny's survey vut it's the first mentioning of the battle nd the picture is the earliest though of 16 century. It changes little in my approach to the battle and the Balkan history as a hole. See the below link to find that I am not the only sceptic about Balkan legends.
Free: Skanderbeg was born in an Orthodox family, was raised as a Muslim and died as a Catholic.
Of course his life story has many contradictions and fantastic episodes. Yet it happens to most of the historical persons. Sometimes misunderstanding arises because we measure the old times with our current mentality. In fact the medieval times were different. Geographic places were moved on the map. Peoples and kings had several names. European history took many toponyms from the Ottomans who used Arab and Iranian words. So this Skanderbek can be a reflection of Mehmet II or Tamerlane whose capitol was either in Tiraspol or Tirana. Balkan Peninsula was the mainland Byzantine and of the Ottomans while we are told as if it was a colony of the Byzantine and then the Ottomans. Sometimes we fail to see evident things. Say Skanderbeu means Alexander Bek. But because all believe that Alexander lived long ago nobody even considers such a version. Almost often top leaders had several names. See 9 names of Tamerlane from the Russian Wikipedia: Великий Эмир, Бек, Мирза, Абу Мансур, Абу Фатих, Абу Гази, Сахиб-и Кирани, Хаган, Гете Стани, Султан, Искандар Ул Ахад, Гурган. Iskandar and Bek are two of them. But he was a Russian Cossack from the Urals so he must had a Russian name too. I mean our sarcasm about things that are not quite evident may look funny. All of us are misled by the historians …
Jugoslavija: So tell me ROTE and your alternative history, why would the Ottoman empire being so vast bury Murad in Kosovo and not take him back
Murad-1 aka Dmitry-1 Donskoy aka Constantine-1 the Great was buried together with all his ancestors in the Imperial Cemetery in Geese Valley, Egypt. It was a tradition left from the ancient Rome in Alexandria that passed to the Second Rome in Tsargrad and the Third Rome in Moscow. As I said it before the Russian Tsars had Byzantine roots from Octavian August. So some of the traditions were followed. Dead bodies of the Kniaz/Khans were mummified and transported to Egypt from all over the Earth. Their biographies were written by the Copt (CPT) clergymen who gave name to Egypt (GPT) though initial name of both Egypt and Cairo was Misr. Arabs still use only this word. Word PHRN + NAME was misinterpreted as PHARAOH. In fact it was a Russian word ПОХОРОН (PHRN) = BURRIED + NAME Copts were sent there for burial services only while Cherkassy Mamelukes were sent here to guard the Pyramids, the Cemetery and Hidjaz with Mecca and Medina cities. Cherkassy Horde that guarded Kaaba was called Kaaba Orda. In 1516 near Aleppo they were defeated by Sultan Selim –I. So many of them had to return to Caucasus. Today this people is known here as КАБАРДИНЦЫ= КААБА ОРДЫНЦЫ= KAABA HORDE. Others stayed to guard the sites until 1817 when 800 top Mamelukes were massacred in Cairo by the Brits. It was a sad story because Copts were the next to suffer.
Jugoslavija : You didn't answer the question, Murad-1 is buried in Kosovo unless that's a counterfeit according to your "history"
READ IT BETTER ! HE WAS BURRIED WHERE HE OUGHT TO BE BURRIED – ON THE IMPERIAL CEMETERY IN GEESE VALLEY. BEFORE IVAN GROZNY ALL TOP RURIKOVICI WERE BURRIED THERE. I AM TIRED TODAY BUT I’LL GIVE YOU LINKS.
Jugoslavija : The earliest mentioning of the Kosovo Battle is in the famous Russian Повесть временных лет of Ivan Grozny.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
There you can also find the only medieval picture of the Battle. And if you have a good look t it you will find that the battle could merely be in this place. Too many towns and mountains!
Now tell me please which of the sides is “Serbian” and which is “Turkish” ? What I can tell for sure is that the left side with the red flag with Image of Edessa (Спас нерукотворный) is of Murat-1 aka Dmitry-1 aka Constantine-1.
Yugoslavja : I hereby have to repeat the link of the single medieval picture of the Kosovo Battle given in the famous Russian ensyclopedia of the 6-th century called ПОВЕСТЬ ВРЕМЕННЫХ ЛЕТ. I think it must be very interesting because it gives quite amazing details of the participants and the surrounding of the battlefield. Kosovo Battle is an important part of the Russian history as it was one of the several great battles of the disaster time (великая смута) of 1370 when the Apostolic Christianity was proclaimed by Dmitry aka Murad and 1415 when the Russians got united to reconquer Europe reflected as Reconquista in the false history. I don't know in which of the two Russian armies Serbs and other peoples of the region fought but I suppose that Serbs fought on Dmitry/Murad's side. Simply because they were a priviledged part of the Horde and it south wing known as the Ottomans. Turkic peoples never played a big role before 1826 when the Yanissaries were massacred. Please have a good look at the details of the below picture. Simpl because the next picture available must have been painted in 19 century when the battle was glorified.
Lenocka, oh Lenocka, thought you'd moved to greener pastures gorgeous!! What a relief, Lenocka! I think everybody here missed your thoughtful insights. Nasha djevushka Lenocka!!
There's no credible evidence that Milos Obilic existed, certainly no one by that name, he is only ever mentioned in poetry, so these sort of discussions about a non existent person should be confined to the sphere of literature, not history
Its your Albos that make stupid claims such as being in the Balkans since time began, how they built the churches in Kosovo then we have claims by your lot that Constantine or his mother/grandmother was Albanian and now Milos Obilic. As I said before Albos and Croats are very similar. It’s always the ones who have little to no history of their own they then make it up.
At least Serbs admit that Constantine was born in Nis and nothing else. Now if there was an Albo site I would imagine you would use that but there isn’t one so you come onto a Serb site LOL.
I have no idea of knowing whether Obilic existed, but one thing is for sure... there were not many Albanians fighting during the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. Not many on the Serb side or Turk side. I think that shows you Albanians were just not very present in Kosovo-Metohija at the time and came during the Ottoman period. That is not hating it's just pointing out a fact like even this Albanian Imam from Prizren did http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/kosovo-imam-charged-with-offending-albanian-nation
Perhaps the Ming dynasty is also of Albanian background.
(sj, 18 May 2016 12:29)
The Mingovic dynasty was a Serb dynasty. It was created when Serbs were on the way to Tokyo where they eventually owned it for millennia. You know the same way Jesus Kristovic was a Serb with a Serb mother, Marica, and thats how the Serbs became the chosen people. Chosen to do what, nobody knows, but someone chose them for something.
Another NGO trying to recreate the old Yugoslavia of brotherhood and unity only this time they include Albania LOL. They broke Humpty Dumpty and now they are trying to glue back again. There is an old saying that a camel is actually a horse designed by a committee so to please all sides they came out with this lumpy animal.
I can imagine being in the room of this NGO and discussions taking place – it would be so funny if it was not sad. And the west actually wonders why it’s disappearing down their own orifice LOL.
“Albanian journalist Ben Andoni, who noted that as a student of history, he was taught that "Milos Obilic was Albanian.
Yeah according to Croats, Sumerian Croats created writing while Egyptian Croats built the pyramids and Croatian Romans built the colosseum. Meanwhile the Albanians who have lived in the region since pre days of the dinosaurs built everything including the Parthenon, Delphi and now Milos Obilic is an Albanian.
Perhaps the Ming dynasty is also of Albanian background.
I gave you my like because I think close to what you wrote though without sarcasm. This is how Ainu people of Japan looked in early 20—th century. Also try to read the text.
Another good text with very good portrays of medieval kings of Asia and their wives will disappoint you. Because almost all were Slavs and thus maybe Serbs. Among the portrays you will find Ali (Baba Ali) whom the shia pray, the emperor Seguns = Hoguns/Kaoguns of Japan, Mongol Mamai, Aladin, Khans/Hams of Tartaria, Siam (Thailand), of Chinese Tartaria (Van and Han dynasties) ect.
Please note that most portrays were made by western painters and printed in western books. Let me know and I’ll give you more links with portrays of the Slavic kings of the world. Next time with Hundustan, Indochina and America. Hope you became proud of your neighborhood!
serbs called him Kopilovic in their books of just yesterday Kopil is Turkish word....newly obtained by serb revisionist historian ....The sultan said he would bastardsize all involved in the murder and also one other reason for mostly mass conversion of religions of all that took part in the battle of Kosova ,why are you Brankovic's not Muslim ?
Of course the history books must be unified so that they do not look as if Balkan states live on different planets. Yet I doubt that it’s a good idea because too many conflicts remain frozen while such a work can only worsen the status quo. None of the Balkan states had enjoyed own statehood even a single day before 1877. Everything written in your textbooks is absolute BS scheduled by the Oldenburgs. Nobody bothers of any proof. So we have 8 battles on Kosovo field, we have Skanderbeu and his 300 Spartans challenging Mehmet II himself, Serbs being proud that their Obilic killed the great Russian Kniaz St. Dmitry-1 Donskoy aka Sultan Murat-1 ect. All over the Earth history was not only falsified but fragmented as well. So that one have no general picture of what was happening parallel to an event in the past. But the biggest tool of the falsificators is SILENCE. If there’s something they cannot explain they stop to see it like the pyramids in France, China, Antarctica ect. Turkey is the heart of civilization thanks to the Byzantine and the Great Horde. So there are plenty of castles and forts of the ancient times. They dig something out and say – this is Troy and this is Efes. So do the Balkan peoples like the Viminacium near Belgrade. Where was it written that this is Efes or Viminacium? NOWHERE! Such are the fairy tales we are fed with. Then we cry Allah Akbar and fight one another. Very sad.
We know too little about the ancient times to insist that this one was for real and that one was fake. How do you know that Obilic existed and that he killed Murad-1? How do you know it was a battle between Serbs and Turks? Where did they come from if Constantinople was not seized yet in 1389? We are told that they came to the Balkans from Anatolia where they seized the Beiliks and then Tsargrad in 1453. So I wonder if their army was an airborne ? Also please explain if the “turks” had a Mongol background where was their famous cavalry on the Kosovo Field? Why drozd is a drozd in all Slavic languages but in Serbian it was Kos? Why so many battles as if happened in this place? Why Belgrade is interpreted as White City if it wasn’t made of white stones? Why a village in Russian Bashkortostan also has the name of Balkan ? In old manuscripts these two words were written as BLGRD and BLKN. Are you blind not to see that the beginning of the words is the same Bal/Bel like Balbek in Crimea or Baalbek in Lebanon or Bel Gora and Temple of Bal in Palmira? Hitler has wiped off the map of Germany about 1200 Slavic toponyms but hundreds still survived all over the continent. Yet we refuse to see them fighting one another without any proof on both sides. On the Big Stamp of Ivan Grozny there were 12 main lands that obeyed him with only one of then on Balkans. It was Bulgaria and was painted on all maps where Serbia is while Romania was written where Bulgaria is.
Lenocka, oh Lenocka, thought you'd moved to greener pastures gorgeous!! What a relief, Lenocka! I think everybody here missed your thoughtful insights. Nasha djevushka Lenocka!!
"but one thing is for sure"...that thing isn't sure at all, that's just you wishing for certainty. there are only two sure things that are known about the Battle of Kosovo, that Lazar and the Sultan died, that's it. everything else has been embroiled in myth. There's no evidence that Brankovic defected either
I have no idea of knowing whether Obilic existed, but one thing is for sure... there were not many Albanians fighting during the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. Not many on the Serb side or Turk side. I think that shows you Albanians were just not very present in Kosovo-Metohija at the time and came during the Ottoman period. That is not hating it's just pointing out a fact like even this Albanian Imam from Prizren did [link]
(Ari Gold, 18 May 2016 16:51)
Ah yes. Another Serb "fact". And it must be true because a D!%&khead of the Muslim persuasion agrees with a D!%&khead of the Orthodox persuasion. We came with the Turks, but Turks allowed Serb public schools but if one dared teach Albanian the death penalty was prompt. Me thinks the Turks by protecting the Serbs were protecting their own kin, you know of the Iranian persuasion.You were good allies. Acting like you were fight, but lose a few "battles", marry the daughters to their princes. Meanwhile the Albanians and the Hungarians are the only ones fighting them off for decades. Serbs enjoy the privileges from their Turkish kinsmen.
My unbiased theory of Serbs is that they were Serfs that escaped to the deep dark Balkan mountains. As the Roman empire was made of half of slaves. One day some slave traders were looking for escaped Serfs and they went to Serfia aka "Serbia". They asked the head of the Serfs are you the escaped Serfs. Him having a slyest idea said no we are Serbs. So that is how they the Serfs became Serbs what a history.
Its your Albos that make stupid claims such as being in the Balkans since time began, how they built the churches in Kosovo then we have claims by your lot that Constantine or his mother/grandmother was Albanian and now Milos Obilic.
(sj
Dear sj,
Just the other day I read a piece which reminded me about you. It was about a tribe somewhere on the Pacific Ocean that hasn't had contact with the outside world in decades.
To them, the internet doesn't exist along with many other modern technologies. Just because they're ignorant about certain things it doesn't mean they're untrue.
sj, just because you're ignorant about the Illyrian/Albanian history it doesn't mean others are as well.
Albanians have stolen everything else from serbs and its neighbours so why not Milos identity as well. However in Albania Milos is called Milosi Obilici hahaha!
Yes Illyrian history. Sadly they were a people that never put anything on paper and you now claim Albanians are the true Illyrians. You have lived in Kosovo since life began but left NOTHING to support that claim, not even a cave painting.
As I said before the Albanians can now claim they built the Parthenon, Delphi and all that material exhibited in the Archaeological Museum in Athens is actually Albano/Illyrian history. Once again it’s always the people with little history or culture that make the biggest claims and Croats and Albanians are identical in that.
Let me give you some advice, shutting up is the best form of medicine.
O la la, Tirana journalists lecturing on living together… Is this the same Ben Andoni who was wandering around Belgrade a year ago, chatting with Serbs who were studying Albanian in Belgrade, and wondering how the heck 60.000 Albos had already applied for the Serbian citizenship and how come that Kosovo Albanians prefer Serbia’s facilities for cosmetic surgery?
http://www.gazetatema.net/web/2015/07/03/reportazhi-beograd-inati-mbetet-me-kosoven/
My unbiased theory of Serbs is that they were Serfs that escaped to the deep dark Balkan mountains. As the Roman empire was made of half of slaves. One day some slave traders were looking for escaped Serfs and they went to Serfia aka "Serbia". They asked the head of the Serfs are you the escaped Serfs. Him having a slyest idea said no we are Serbs. So that is how they the Serfs became Serbs what a history.
(Lenard, 19 May 2016 09:38)
Lenny, one problem with your theory. You are stock raving mad.
Jugoslavija : You didn't answer the question, Murad-1 is buried in Kosovo unless that's a counterfeit according to your "history"
READ IT BETTER ! HE WAS BURRIED WHERE HE OUGHT TO BE BURRIED – ON THE IMPERIAL CEMETERY IN GEESE VALLEY. BEFORE IVAN GROZNY ALL TOP RURIKOVICI WERE BURRIED THERE. I AM TIRED TODAY BUT I’LL GIVE YOU LINKS.
Yugoslavja : I hereby have to repeat the link of the single medieval picture of the Kosovo Battle given in the famous Russian ensyclopedia of the 6-th century called ПОВЕСТЬ ВРЕМЕННЫХ ЛЕТ. I think it must be very interesting because it gives quite amazing details of the participants and the surrounding of the battlefield. Kosovo Battle is an important part of the Russian history as it was one of the several great battles of the disaster time (великая смута) of 1370 when the Apostolic Christianity was proclaimed by Dmitry aka Murad and 1415 when the Russians got united to reconquer Europe reflected as Reconquista in the false history. I don't know in which of the two Russian armies Serbs and other peoples of the region fought but I suppose that Serbs fought on Dmitry/Murad's side. Simply because they were a priviledged part of the Horde and it south wing known as the Ottomans. Turkic peoples never played a big role before 1826 when the Yanissaries were massacred. Please have a good look at the details of the below picture. Simpl because the next picture available must have been painted in 19 century when the battle was glorified.
ataman : "Повѣсть времѧньныхъ лѣтъ" of XIIth century is not the same as "Лицевой летописный свод" of 1568 - 1576. The Russian Kosovo Battle image was painted in second half of 16th century.
You're right but it was a technical mistake that changes nothing. It was writtenunder Ivan Grozny's survey vut it's the first mentioning of the battle nd the picture is the earliest though of 16 century. It changes little in my approach to the battle and the Balkan history as a hole. See the below link to find that I am not the only sceptic about Balkan legends.
Sj : Sadly they were a people that never put anything on paper and you now claim Albanians are the true Illyrians. … Albanians can now claim they built the Parthenon, Delphi and all that material exhibited in the Archaeological Museum in Athens is actually Albano/Illyrian history.
I don’t think that you sarcasm is good here as we know almost nothing about the histories of the Greeks and the Shqips and our own. "Because I said so" is the main argument used. I saw pictures of the Parthenon after it was liberated in 19 century. It looked different with minarets and private houses around and the Mosque of Mariam (The Virgin) inside. If we change our tune and start to supply one another with old documents and artefacts we would move better. 80% of what we think is our imagination. On old maps I saw word "Greece" only in one place and it was Crete Island while on Greek territory was marked as Latina. Greeks were a sea nation that inhabited all the shores of the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. I don’t know what has happened to those Greeks and I am not sure that all current Greeks were Greeks indeed. Meanwhile we can see that genetically Shqips and the Greeks are close peoples with big Semite component. Have no idea of the Shqiptarian but the Greek language is a composition of different languages as they say. It’s a young language that appeared about 190 years ago while their “medieval Greek” is really old. But they deny it because it will ruin their Oldenburg history.
The mummified dead bodies of the Great Kniazes/Khans (pharaohs before 19-th dynasty) and of their family members were transported along the Styx River (Mediterranean Sea) by Aaron/Haroon (Russian- хорон) to Misr now Egypt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Qs8-BkiLw
All graves of the Horde’s Kings of the first 5 Habsburgs (Новгород) are fake with Murat/Dmitry Donskoy's among them. In Russian history his death is never explained and there’s always a short sentence that he died in June 1389. It is very strange because since he headed the Horde in every big battle and was a 39 year old man with no health problems. No details why and where he died or why the burial cervices were led by a low ranking Archbishop of Trabesund but not by his Godfather St. Sergy Radonezhski or at least by the Russian Patriarch also of Greek origin. No one knows what the Trabesund Archbishop was doing in Moscow? The only reasonable explanation is that the Archbishop was part of the “Turkish” army while the burial services are to be led in 3 days.
Anyways in 14-th century there was a zero chance that the Great Kniaz could be buried outside the Imperial Cemetery in Geese Valley. Ships that delivered their bodies were left by the pyramids forever to enable them travel to Osiris aka Jesus Christ.
Free: Skanderbeg was born in an Orthodox family, was raised as a Muslim and died as a Catholic.
Of course his life story has many contradictions and fantastic episodes. Yet it happens to most of the historical persons. Sometimes misunderstanding arises because we measure the old times with our current mentality. In fact the medieval times were different. Geographic places were moved on the map. Peoples and kings had several names. European history took many toponyms from the Ottomans who used Arab and Iranian words. So this Skanderbek can be a reflection of Mehmet II or Tamerlane whose capitol was either in Tiraspol or Tirana. Balkan Peninsula was the mainland Byzantine and of the Ottomans while we are told as if it was a colony of the Byzantine and then the Ottomans. Sometimes we fail to see evident things. Say Skanderbeu means Alexander Bek. But because all believe that Alexander lived long ago nobody even considers such a version. Almost often top leaders had several names. See 9 names of Tamerlane from the Russian Wikipedia: Великий Эмир, Бек, Мирза, Абу Мансур, Абу Фатих, Абу Гази, Сахиб-и Кирани, Хаган, Гете Стани, Султан, Искандар Ул Ахад, Гурган. Iskandar and Bek are two of them. But he was a Russian Cossack from the Urals so he must had a Russian name too. I mean our sarcasm about things that are not quite evident may look funny. All of us are misled by the historians …
Jugoslavija: So tell me ROTE and your alternative history, why would the Ottoman empire being so vast bury Murad in Kosovo and not take him back
Murad-1 aka Dmitry-1 Donskoy aka Constantine-1 the Great was buried together with all his ancestors in the Imperial Cemetery in Geese Valley, Egypt. It was a tradition left from the ancient Rome in Alexandria that passed to the Second Rome in Tsargrad and the Third Rome in Moscow. As I said it before the Russian Tsars had Byzantine roots from Octavian August. So some of the traditions were followed. Dead bodies of the Kniaz/Khans were mummified and transported to Egypt from all over the Earth. Their biographies were written by the Copt (CPT) clergymen who gave name to Egypt (GPT) though initial name of both Egypt and Cairo was Misr. Arabs still use only this word. Word PHRN + NAME was misinterpreted as PHARAOH. In fact it was a Russian word ПОХОРОН (PHRN) = BURRIED + NAME Copts were sent there for burial services only while Cherkassy Mamelukes were sent here to guard the Pyramids, the Cemetery and Hidjaz with Mecca and Medina cities. Cherkassy Horde that guarded Kaaba was called Kaaba Orda. In 1516 near Aleppo they were defeated by Sultan Selim –I. So many of them had to return to Caucasus. Today this people is known here as КАБАРДИНЦЫ= КААБА ОРДЫНЦЫ= KAABA HORDE. Others stayed to guard the sites until 1817 when 800 top Mamelukes were massacred in Cairo by the Brits. It was a sad story because Copts were the next to suffer.
Jugoslavija : The earliest mentioning of the Kosovo Battle is in the famous Russian Повесть временных лет of Ivan Grozny.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
There you can also find the only medieval picture of the Battle. And if you have a good look t it you will find that the battle could merely be in this place. Too many towns and mountains!
Now tell me please which of the sides is “Serbian” and which is “Turkish” ? What I can tell for sure is that the left side with the red flag with Image of Edessa (Спас нерукотворный) is of Murat-1 aka Dmitry-1 aka Constantine-1.
There's no credible evidence that Milos Obilic existed, certainly no one by that name, he is only ever mentioned in poetry, so these sort of discussions about a non existent person should be confined to the sphere of literature, not history
(Nikolle, 18 May 2016 12:18)
Exactly.
But while it's exposed to the comment section we might as well have some fun.
I hear Obilic was actually a Croatian Muslim who identified as a Hungarian.
"The Balkans produce more history than they can consume" Churchill.
Writing a common history text book is a great initiative but it would have to be scientific work, independent and without compromise to please this or that nation.
I have hope that it might happen as all the crazy nuts seem to have left Balkans and be living in other countries as evidenced by comments here. There, they can peddle their pet theories while abusing the welfare system of their host country. Please don't come back!
PS: Rote is truly entertaining material, I wish I knew if it is the smoking or the hard vodka that makes him such a nice chap.
Don`t know about Obilic. He maybe was Serbian, or Albanian or perhaps a pissed off Turkish soldier. Does it make any difference?
Skanderbeg was born in an Orthodox family, was raised as a Muslim and died as a Catholic. Come on, can you find a Serbian or a Greek who renounced his religion easier than changing his pants? Only this fact is more than enough to admit he was an Albanian. Lol.
The past is real and immutable. You don't just make things up in history to sustain a narrative or uphold national claims. History is the science of exploring, exposing and communicating the past as real. But part of history is myth and beliefs have history. It is real and immutable that in history people hold beliefs that are not true. What is even worse is that as a matter of history, people lie in order to uphold beliefs that are not true.
Anti-semitism is a perfect example. Two popular lies told about the Jewish people are the existence of evidence of a global Jewish conspiracy in a book known as the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and that there is such a thing as Palestinians, a people who are not now, nor have ever been Jewish who are native to the region now known as Israel.
To see abuses to history and young minds similar to what we see here try,
By the way - a while ago I did read several sources and there is indeed no 100% proof that Milos Obilic did ever exist. We do not know, how Tsar Lazar and his counterpart did die, but all sources agree, both rulers were killed during the battle.
We do not even know who won the battle because the Christians did celebrate after the battle.
One is certain: the fate was sealed later in August of the same year because the widow of Lazar asked Turks to help her against invading army of Emperor Sigismund of Luxemburg.
So if Serbs did lose, than they lost the Kosovo Battle against Sigismund, not the Turks.
Probably time to stop celebrate Sigismund as holy anti-Turkish emperor - when in the fact he was responsible for the loss of Serbia and Bosnia (it is undisputed, he killed the entire Bosnian nobility and literally delivered Bosnia to Turks).
Accounts of how Murad died are also confusing, just as there are contradictory accounts about the outcome of the battle. Obilic is most likely an invention.
(Nikolle, 20 May 2016 09:06)
Unlikely as Murad-1 did not die of a heart attack and is buried in Kosovo and the name Obelic has been passed down the centuries.
"Повѣсть времѧньныхъ лѣтъ" of XIIth century is not the same as "Лицевой летописный свод" of 1568 - 1576. The Russian Kosovo Battle image was painted in second half of 16th century.
400 years were sacrificed to Fomenko's ideas.
Let's assume, Fomenko is right. Than why, on what purpose that (alleged) monumental and mega-expensive conspiracy project altering good 3000 years of history was done? That idea does not answer any unresolved questions - but arises a host of new ones.
Ataman: If Fomenko is right, your question will find a naturally obvious answer. That's the point, this is how logics principles work not the other way around.I think that Prof. Fomenko and Prof. Nosovskij are two outstanding researchers who have conducted a huge, huge interdisciplinary research. Unfortunately we are simply not too qualified to either confirm their theory or find any inconsistencies in their research. We can be fine connoisseurs of the "ancient" art, we can tell a Greek statue from a Roman one but we are talking about the author of 180 scientific publications, 26 monographs and textbooks on mathematics, we are talking about a specialist in geometry, topology and astronomics here. Finding an answer to your question would be the easiest thing in the world if we assume these two outstanding Russian researchers are right. As a professor of mine once said, Italy would have been a far better place to live in if the French needn't send back the Pope to Rome. Then, methinks, they probably needed to seize power throughout the entire old Europe and the rest is "history"...
There's no credible evidence that Milos Obilic existed, certainly no one by that name, he is only ever mentioned in poetry, so these sort of discussions about a non existent person should be confined to the sphere of literature, not history
(Nikolle, 18 May 2016 12:18)
Yes, but Murad's grave is in Kosovo-Polje so somebody killed him and it would not have been in battle. The story goes Milos Obelic went to pay homage to King Murad and took out a knife and slit open his stomach. Many of you need to have your brains slit open.
So tell me ROTE and your alternative history, why would the Ottoman empire being so vast bury Murad in Kosovo and not take him back for burial in Turkey or Russia where you think that Muslims and Slavs were one of the same.
Murad-1 aka Dmitry-1 Donskoy aka Constantine-1 the Great was buried together with all his ancestors in the Imperial Cemetery in Geese Valley, Egypt. It was a tradition left from the ancient Rome in Alexandria that passed to the Second Rome in Tsargrad and the Third Rome in Moscow. As I said it before the Russian Tsars had Byzantine roots from Octavian August. So some of the traditions were followed. Dead bodies of the Kniaz/Khans were mummified and transported to Egypt from all over the Earth. Their biographies were written by the Copt (CPT) clergymen who gave name to Egypt (GPT) though initial name of both Egypt and Cairo was Misr. Arabs still use only this word. Word PHRN + NAME was misinterpreted as PHARAOH. In fact it was a Russian word ПОХОРОН (PHRN) = BURRIED + NAME Copts were sent there for burial services only while Cherkassy Mamelukes were sent here to guard the Pyramids, the Cemetery and Hidjaz with Mecca and Medina cities. Cherkassy Horde that guarded Kaaba was called Kaaba Orda. In 1516 near Aleppo they were defeated by Sultan Selim –I. So many of them had to return to Caucasus. Today this people is known here as КАБАРДИНЦЫ= КААБА ОРДЫНЦЫ= KAABA HORDE. Others stayed to guard the sites until 1817 when 800 top Mamelukes were massacred in Cairo by the Brits. It was a sad story because Copts were the next to suffer.
(rote, 20 May 2016 00:11)
You didn't answer the question, Murad-1 is buried in Kosovo unless that's a counterfeit according to your "history"
Why such stupidity makes it past an editors desk is the question? I think the person who posted on you tube, Do Dogs Have Brains , was also involved in this article.
No one by the name of Milos Obilic is mentioned in the earliest sources on the battle. He is mentioned long after anyone who ever took part in was dead. There's no evidence that this person existed. Accounts of how Murad died are also confusing, just as there are contradictory accounts about the outcome of the battle. Obilic is most likely an invention.
I have a strong sympathy towards Croats and v.v.
But I have to admit, this time your Vinjak was not the quality I really like, Skanderbeu is way better. If you do not drink Serbian lozovača - please do yourself a favor and switch to Skanderbeu.
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