Mustafa says "Kosovo never belonged to Serbia"

All for local consumption. What is Kosovo? Its a prison for Albanians with no future prospects and no hope. At the first opportunity the Albanians shoot out of their paradise for greener pastures never to return. The west has abandoned them with no investment whatsoever and depleted uranium that has not been cleaned up where farmers plough fields and plant crops in soil that is so contaminated it causes cancer rates to spike beyond belief.

Then there is the Brussels Agreement. Mustapha et al signed it which means a sell out where the Serb minority can veto anything Pristina proposes and Serbs can vote for the elections in Serbia proper which is so strange since Kosova is independent LOL. I have never heard of this before, but to paste over this, out comes this nonsense about Kosovo was never Serbian etc.
You have to hand it to the Albanian pollies, they certain can lead a horse to water and make it drink; that is an Albanian horse.

There's more than 85 years of paperwork that says otherwise. Albanians seem to still be living in their own Hoxha North Korean type reality.

Kosovo never belonged to Albanians.

mustafa looks like a vampire

Pristina will never be part of the solution for serbs. People who are allowing warcriminals to become decisionmakers and undermining the desecration of hundreds of churches and monasteries in Kosovo should not be trusted. The only thing albanians can do for everyone else is create problems.

As Erdogan said, "Kosova is Turkey" and I think he may have a point. Kosovo i Metohija (KiM) is and will always be Serbia. The occupation will be defeated and our Albanians can all go home to "Kosova". Erdogan will be waiting to welcome you all.

Mustafa's brain has been scrambled from too many Kurti eggs hitting his brain. How is the visa application going for his "dead" brother.

That's a bold statement form a guy named Mustafack,

I will permit to you to show to me all the documents you want to convince to us that Kosovo was part of Serbia!
(Joni, 19 April 2016 16:32)

Check history from 1912 and the international peace agreements after the First Balkan War that brokered territorial acquisitions for Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria and work your way from there.

I know educational standards in Albania are and have been some of the lowest in Europe for decades, but empirical evidence trumps whatever delusions you're using in your reply.

A land deed sits in a file cabinet somewhere in Belgrade that was signed by the League of Nations.

It says otherwise.

The dude in this article wasn't even born at that time.

Therret Prizreni: Kosova was part of Serbia as much as Iraq was part of USA.

I wonder if there’s a meningitis epidemic in Kosovo? Or maybe denying the evident is a new trend in this land … Looks like politicians on both sides became provocateurs to keep up the fire. But what makes you to do the above silly statement? What is your personal interest? Is it a kind of a hypnosis or self-hypnosis?

If Kosovo was ever a part of the (new) State of Serbia is disputed. Maybe that's what he meant?
(Questioner, 19 April 2016 14:25)

No because Kosovo was a part of Serbia as early as 1912 and the Republic of Serbia is the legal heir and inheritor of Yugoslavia.

Never was, never will.

Thats it Zoran, keep flattering yourself. Do you mean you will do to Albabnians what Croats did you you in Krajina? Where are those izbeglicas now?
(Nikolle, 19 April 2016 15:51)
--
Haha, you always take the bait Nikolle. I don't think Serbs will do to Albanians what Croats did to Serbs. It is not in our nature. Maybe we can catch up for a rakija in Kosovska Mitrovica some time? But I suppose that is a long way to travel from the US? :)

"Milosevic removed autonomy, them Kosovo was part of (the Federal Repubulic) of Serbian within YU."

Milosevic removed autonomy with a military regime, the proper term for it is occupation. Kosova was part of Serbia as much as Iraq was part of USA.

There's more than 85 years of paperwork that says otherwise. Albanians seem to still be living in their own Hoxha North Korean type reality.
(the actual truth, 19 April 2016 14:59)

I will permit to you to show to me all the documents you want to convince to us that Kosovo was part of Serbia!
Those documents will make you "down" - for that i'm sure you will not show to us!
And if you show to me the Battle of Kosovo!
Let me show to you the Battle of Belgrade (1456) - in which HUNGARY fought against Turks!
If Kosovo belong to you just from a battle then Belgrade belong to Hungary!

I'm curious about Albanian claims to Kosovo that stretch back millions of years. Those cultures and peoples who possessed these lands left their mark. The Greeks built temples and theatres. The Romans amphitheatres, arenas, and villas. The Serbs medieval monasteries and churches. The Turks bridges and mosques. But what have the so-called 'oldest inhabitants' left for cultural posterity? Petrol stations perhaps?

Therret Prizreni : Kosova was part of Serbia as much as Iraq was part of USA.

I wonder if there’s a meningitis epidemic in Kosovo? Or maybe denying the evident is a new trend in this land … Looks like politicians on both sides became provocateurs to keep up the fire. But what makes you to do the above silly statement? What is your personal interest? Is it a kind of a hypnosis or self-hypnosis?

I will permit to you to show to me all the documents you want to convince to us that Kosovo was part of Serbia!
(Joni, 19 April 2016 16:32)

Check history from 1912 and the international peace agreements after the First Balkan War that brokered territorial acquisitions for Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria and work your way from there.
(the actual truth, 19 April 2016 17:05)

Joni, so what our dear friend "the actual truth" is saying, is that it is your job (Joni's) to find the evidence supporting the arguments of "the actual truth".

That's how the quest for the actual truth works for our dear friend "the actual truth" :)

Serbs can lie and go mad as much as they want. Case closed.
(Avni, 19 April 2016 22:40)
If the case is closed why are you wasting your time making such statements on B92? It closed and no case to answer so there should be no further comment on your part or is it more of a case that you are trying to convince yourself rather than the Serbs?

\

All of the Balkan people have mixed roots; from the ancient inhabitants to various peoples/armies that came through and mixed with the locals (all one needs to see is the recent genetic testing done in the region). But the facts are simple; the word "Albanian" was first ever used or mentioned in the 12th century in the Balkan region (just Google "origins of the Albanians"). That is long after the Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks had their own states as one can see from this map of Europe in 814; http://www.emersonkent.com/images/maps/europe_814.jpg
funny how there is not a trace of "Albanians or Bosnians" anywhere to be found. The question I have for the Albanians (which I have been asking them in person and on these sort of forums for over 10 years and still I can not get an answer to) is; Can you show me 1 Albanian source from prior to the 18th century that claims you are "descendants" of the Illyrians?

Kosovo never belonged to X, therefore it should not belong to X. That's a dangerous argument. Kosovo never belonged to the U.N., Kosovo never belonged to ... (you name it).

(Therret Prizreni, 20 April 2016 06:10)

You want to see poverty then go to Kosova http://www.unicef.org/kosovoprogramme/Child_Poverty_ENG(2).pdf or Albania http://www.wvi.org/albania/article/poverty-albania-imagine-world-which-olsi-6-was-born%E2%80%A6
I have been to both. If that is not convincing for you the US has 60 million people on food stamps and out of a population of 320 million 100 million are affected by the GFC of 2008. Parts of the US look like Nigeria. They have 23% unemployment. Detroit alone looks like a ghost town.
What is the point of having a young population when they have no hope or future? Muslims think that numbers matter; no its not quantity but quality.

Therret Prizreni : “ stupid to find out that your fearless leader is nothing but a petty thief, stashing his billions in Panama, while poverty and hunger keeps growing in Russia? … but Albanians have been here from the beginning of time and will be here till the end of time. You can bark from over there in Russia ”

1/ «презренный» (prezreni) is the Russian for “the despised”.
2/ In Panama Papers Russia is lest mentioned to say nothing of Putin.
3/ Please explain why would a man like Putin keep his money where his enemies control everything?
4/ Where is that state where Putin could waste USD 1 Bln.?
5/ Don’t worry about those whom you openly hate. Russians do not calculate everything in money. In the old Soviet song there are good words ( жила бы страна родная и нету других забот) that explain our mentality best. …. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzSOXKwnvh0 So don’t worry about poverty in Russia but worry about the poor Shqips around you.
6/ How do you know that Shqips lived there always? Please give me a single artefact or an ancient document or any other evidence! If not kindly shut up.

"As Erdogan said, "Kosova is Turkey" and I think he may have a point. Kosovo i Metohija (KiM) is and will always be Serbia. The occupation will be defeated and our Albanians can all go home to "Kosova". Erdogan will be waiting to welcome you all."

Thats it Zoran, keep flattering yourself. Do you mean you will do to Albabnians what Croats did you you in Krajina? Where are those izbeglicas now?

Serbs can lie and go mad as much as they want. Case closed.

What a stupid idiot.

Further to my post below:

There are also land deeds for Serb monasteries in Kosovo which were granted by successive generations of the Nemanja Dynasty (beginning with the Great Stefan Nemanja) who granted them to the SOC (hence the name "Metojia which means "church Lands").

Some of the lands which were granted by the Nemanja's were later confiscated by Communist Authorities led by the bloodsucker Josip Broz Tito (who, by the way, should be shipped back to Croatia from where he came).

Those lands should be returned to their rightful owner by initiating court cases proving chain of title.

##

Prior Post:

A land deed sits in a file cabinet somewhere in Belgrade that was signed by the League of Nations.

It says otherwise.

The dude in this article wasn't even born at that time.

@prizreni
Can you show me 1 Albanian source from prior to the 18th century that claims you are "descendants" of the Illyrians?

It's point of no return. Cost us a lot. Future I see Kosova in EU or join Albania. Simply evolution its called. And border with Serbia Berlin Wall best is for either of us

Yet another example of lying to further a jihadi cause. Who did kosovo "declare" independence from if it was "never part of serbia"??

@ the actual truth

This is the most ‘stupid’ answer for a patriotic Serb, who claim that Kosovo was always Serbian.
You just embarrassing yourself and your own with this comment. Because you just confirm what Albanians always “shout loud” Kosovo in an unprecedented way was given to Serbia after the Balkan wars, no?? Never was part of Serbia!
I’m sorry to broke you again, and force you to CHECK back by yourself - even after 1913 ( not 1912 ). Oh, sugar – tell us about Kosovo status after 1913? When KOSOVO was added in Serbian constitution? Just saying... eee , as much as you told to me to check ….
Regarding to education standards – well Albanian IQ, is bigger than Serbian one, so imagine yourself how ignorant you are even with those standards.

To (sj, 19 April 2016 13:31), they have the independence from Serbia, for them that is the most important thing. They can not eat independence neither independence pays their rents. Same as in Serbia, those politicians on the top they have money but ordinary people hardly surviving.

Keeping up the fire is important. Or I would say: "important".

I would like to say something probably most of you do not know.
It is important because to a large degree this kind of statements are being fueled by the hope of mighty USA backing Kosovo.

There no more dishonest country on the planet than USA. The longer you live in that country, the more you realize: they (Americans) expect YOU to be honest. However, they are habitual liars.

Just an example. It is a long-standing tradition in America that perjury is NOT being actively punished and in no case someone is liable for the damages he caused by a perjury. Check it out, it is a shocking truth.

Try that (perjury) in Germany, Mongolia, Cameroon, any other first, second or third-world country...

With such mentality and habitual liars being raised in America on a daily basis... do you (Serbs, Albanians, Russians, Croats, Greeks here) expect any honesty from American politics? You are naive.

The best policy towards America is take whatever you can, never trust a single word - and run. It sounds very cynical, sorry about that - but unless they change their law, their education and their habits - they are the worst third-world country, worth of nothing, except as above: take any benefit and run.

As in the old (American) joke:

- papa (so the baby shark) - I ate a lawyer and a politician today!
- good job, my son, but how do you know?
- Lawyer had no skin of face, the politician had no backbone

A land deed sits in a file cabinet somewhere in Belgrade that was signed by the League of Nations.

It says otherwise.
(factman, 19 April 2016 15:51)

What a shame that nobody is able to find that file cabinet in Belgrade where that land deed sits lol

Rote:
It's been called a gas station in the middle of nowhere, but mental disease is a more appropriate name for Russia.

Don't you all feel stupid to find out that your fearless leader is nothing but a petty thief, stashing his billions in Panama, while poverty and hunger keeps growing in Russia?
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3746841-155/poverty-in-russia-rising-at-fastest

Somehow I fail to imagine that 20 million Russians who can't put food on the table for their starving children, worry about to whom does Kosova belong.

How about this: Kosova belongs to it's people. It belongs to the people that live and breathe here everyday, and to no one else. Who's people is 95% Albanian. Invaders have come and gone, Serbs, Turks, even Romans, but Albanians have been here from the beginning of time and will be here till the end of time. You can bark from over there in Russia, it's of no consequence to us.
How about this other one: The average age among Albanians in Kosova is 26, while the average age of Serbians is 65. What conversation are we going to have in 10 years time? A conversation with the cemetery.

And if you're itching for another beating, here's another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2Pv_-XHmD0

(icj1, 19 April 2016 20:38)
In between your ears must be a fascinating place where witty statements are extremely witty and funny, but out here in the world its sounds like garbled nonsense. You have to stop listening to those voices that are telling you lies about ability to outplay you opponents.
Now back to the foetal position and rock backwards and forwards and start babbling about PS CE= Chief Economist, sj commands/orders and so non LOL.

To the contrary, your Highness, Count of Kosova.
The most communist country which claims to be 'Western' is precisely the United States of America.

Of course, I know, this sounds shocking. But just for starters: a broken justice system, a corrupt healthcare system and a dysfunctional education system is not something typical for a capitalist country. I live in a VERY capitalist country and have only minor complains, even less, than my neighbors.

A small example of communism. In the U.S. the food price is two-tiered: the low tire is for poor. You do not want to eat that crap, but it is twice cheaper than what your money buys in Kosova. Than is the food for the rest of us. It is 3 times to 10 times more than in Kosova. We 'support' the poor Americans the communist way: paying unreasonable price for healthy food because we are expected to afford it.

This is just a little example. As I did mention before a justice system which does not intent to serve justice or an education system which creates dumb and dumbest - all this is well-known.

Back to the topic: you should trust in Kosova these dishonest imbeciles as you should trust a dishonest imbecile.

For the sake of argument, let us entertain the un-proven notion that Albanians are Illyrian.

Serbs have been in the Balkans since the 7th Century (1,300 years or maybe 40 lifetimes)

Is someone actually going to build an argument and say they are: "visitors"?

Ridiculous.

Some history lesson: Kosovo once was an autonomous province in YU, within (the Federal Republic of) Serbia within YU. Milosevic removed autonomy, them Kosovo was part of (the Federal Repubulic) of Serbian within YU.

If Kosovo was ever a part of the (new) State of Serbia is disputed. Maybe that's what he meant?

Your Highness, Count - continuing from my previous rant with more details.
As I said, the poor, lopsided education system and a wasteful, inefficient healthcare is not something typical for a capitalist country. If I add "kangaroo court system" you will think of North Korea. Unfortunately, not just that. United States has the most ridiculous kangaroo court system.

Example.

I will claim (in Kosovo, Hungary, Russia, Germany, Serbia) in the local civil court (they call it 'Superior Court' in California - but there is nothing superior there) that you stole my Mercedes and you ow me $40000 in damages.
I will produce two-three witnesses who under oath will claim, they did see you stealing my Mercedes. I will create fake DMV paperwork proving that I had a Mercedes.

So the judge will make you lose and me win. Than you will find out the truth and will prove beyond any doubt that the judgement was a result of perjury and forgery.

Unless you can prove that this was an 'abuse of process' (that is, my goal was far more than just scam you out of $40000) than you are out of luck, even if your paperwork is 100%. The American justice system does not know about civil liability of perjury or forgery and everything they even f@rt is about 'res judicata'.

All is done to 'reduce the work of courts and litigation'. Wrong completely. You do not believe? Neither did I. But that's the truth. USA = the land of habitual liars.

What motivates the serbs to distort the history is not historical fact, but colonialist propaganda. Alexandar Stipcevic, the distinguished illyrologist, knew well the ins and outs of the Serbian Academic World. Here's how he describes it:
http://blog.chinadaily.com.cn/thread-1259248-1-1.html

--------------------
The Serbian archaeologist Milutin Garasanin represents a special case. In 1955, he wrote an article in the Prishtina periodical "Përparimi", in which he asserted that the Albanians are the direct descendants of the Illyrians. In the years that followed, Garasanin increasingly fell into line with other Serbian researchers who denied any such descent. This shift became still more evident in connection with the problem of the ethnic allegiance of the Dardanians, who inhabited the Kosova region. This problem became one of the most disputed in archaeology and history, assuming apolitical character after 1981. The Serbs vigorously attacked the idea that the Dardanians were ethnically Illyrian. Not because they were led to this conclusion by scientific evidence, but purely because Kosova was "the cradle of Serbian history" and "holy soil" for the Serbs, and as such could not have been inhabited by a people that were of Illyrian stock and hence claimed by their descendants, the Albanians.

This opposition increased especially after the great Albanian revolt in Kosova in 1981. It was therefore a consequence of a political event rather than of new scientific data.

Funny , I didn't realize that Islam allows its followers to booze themselves into a drunken stupor and out of their minds.

Did I miss something in my Islam education?

Continuing from my previous rant.

There are three pillars of society where America is way behind most countries.

-The education system
-The legal system
-The healthcare

They need to fix all of them - and not by some Obama-patchwork, but for real.
I do not see any chance for that in the future. So they will go down at one point and take a good part of the world with them.

I do not think it will happen in our lifetime, but for sure in the lifetime of our kids.
Unless someone can fix these three problems. The current establishment won't.

The early roman and greek loaned words in Albanian, indicate when these words first entered Albanian, and have been identified as before the roman conquest, which places proto-Albanians in a well defined geography. That geography is further defined by the large number of words with a common root with Romanian (Dacian).

There's no dispute among serious historians that proto-Albanians have been in the Balkans long before the slavic migrations. There are various theories as to the exact origins: Illyrian proprie dictii, or a mixture of Illyrian-Thracian-Dacian, but the basic facts remain the same: Serbs found us here. You are the newcomers, we are the original inhabitants.

Albanians were mentioned for the first time in recorded history not in the 12th century, but in the 2nd century BC, in the "History of the World" by Polybius, as the Albanoi tribe with their center at Albanopolis. Later the same name was applied to a much larger group of people, as it was a case with poles, rus, sorbi, franks etc.

Continuing from my previous rant.

There are three pillars of society where America is way behind most countries.

1) The education system
2) The legal system
3) The healthcare

They need to fix all of them - and not by some Obama-patchwork, but for real.
I do not see any chance for that in the future. So they will go down at one point and take a good part of the world with them.

I do not think it will happen in our lifetime, but for sure in the lifetime of our kids.
Unless someone can fix these three problems. The current establishment won't.

Albanians and Greeks are the oldest inhabitantss in the Balkans. We both have over 4000 years history in Balkans..serbs, turks are newcomers

icj1,the actual truth is making available the source of the facts Joni is seeking. Joni's desperate for the truth from the actual truth and thus the actual truth has given him what he seeks and is not asking for anything in return. He certainly isn't asking for Joni's fanciful version of historical revisionism because he's well aware of what hyperbole will confront him. Incidentally our arrogant,agent provocateur,friend Mustafa will get his trousers wet if he keeps urinating against the prevailing wind and that's the truth!!

Joni, so what our dear friend "the actual truth" is saying, is that it is your job (Joni's) to find the evidence supporting the arguments of "the actual truth".
(icj1, 19 April 2016 20:38)

Yes.

He/She questioned self-evident facts and asked for proof. I simply recommended finding out for his/herself. Seeing as how he/she's on the Internet all the time, it shouldn't be too hard. It's one thing to be ignorant. Don't be lazy in addition.

rote: "How do you know that Shqips lived there always? Please give me a single artefact or an ancient document or any other evidence! If not kindly shut up."

Ignorance is not an argument, Rote. I'm not here to lecture you and open your eyes when you want to keep them shut. There is a whole field of Illyrian and Proto-Albanian studies, archaeological, anthropological, ethnological, linguistic evidence that I can't bring to you in a blog post, but you can start from here:

http://issuu.com/haemus/docs/archeokosovo/109?e=0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnLbqqZmF2E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn0Ssffhfzg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZW4rl6smfk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLVZWExsryo
http://www.tauresium.info/english/

Or start from some books:
https://books.google.com/books?id=NLcWAQAAIAAJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=lG8VAQAAIAAJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=4Nv6SPRKqs8C

Or go visit any of the dozen archaeological museums or sites in both Albania and Kosova.

The few known words from Illyrian can only be explained from Albanian: sika-thika(knife),aspetos-shpejtë(fast),bilia-bijë,bilë(daughter),aran-arëfield),delme-dele(sheep),ulkin-ulk,ujk(wolf) etc, etc. The earliest known Illyrian king was Hyllus, which in Albanian means Star(Yll). Bardhylus was the White Star, a king who fought on horseback up until he was 90 years old.

There are three pillars of society where America is way behind most countries.

1) The education system
2) The legal system
3) The healthcare

They need to fix all of them - and not by some Obama-patchwork, but for real.
I do not see any chance for that in the future. So they will go down at one point and take a good part of the world with them.

I do not think it will happen in our lifetime, but for sure in the lifetime of our kids.
Unless someone can fix these three problems. The current establishment won't.
(Ataman, 19 April 2016 19:39)


If it is Socialism/Communism/Marxism you are looking for, you won't find it in the U.S. For that you should have remained in Hungary, where you were thought of as an undesirable.

@Ataman

There are no DIRECTproofs about the fact that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians.

There are only INDIRECT facts:
1. There are NO evidence, NOT a single one for any kind of "Albanian emigration", like we all know about Slaves, Nomads, Huns, Celts, Goths etc etc.
2. There are many Latin words in Albanian language.
3. There are several Illyrian names and words that are explained by Albanian language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages#Cognates_with_Albanian\
4. So, it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it swims like a duck, it quackes like a duck, then it`s probably a duck.


There are ONLY two problems that are the origin of "Albanian mystery":

First, the nationality in the Byzantine Empire was as important as lets say "favourite colour". Even today the historians can`t really be sure about the nationality of many of the Emperors or other personalities.

Second, is that the most of European languages are first written in Monasteries by the priest and the real foundation of States and Empires was the Church.

Well, Albanians never cared too much about religion, so they were not very fond of Monasteries or creating their own Church. Hence the lack of Albanian writings (or Albanian Church and so on).

We are the only people in the World to have had ATHEISM in CONSTITUTION!

But the lack of strong religion affiliations are not proof of the lack of existence.

(icj1, 19 April 2016 20:38)
You have to stop listening to those voices that are telling you lies
(sj, 20 April 2016 08:25)

Well, I often listen to what the CE of B92 forums sj has to say and refer to his/her arguments and analysis. So, it comes as a shock to me that you think that the CE of B92 forums sj is lying. B92 must ban you from these website for writing such heretic statement and offending the CE of B92 forums sj ;)

P.S. CE = Chief Economist

@Bishop
"Can you show me 1 Albanian source from prior to the 18th century that claims you are "descendants" of the Illyrians?"

How is that of any consequence? I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. Why does 1 Albanian source prior to the 18th century, have any more weight scientifically than thousands of studies, books, research, archaeological excavations from Albanian and non-Albanian scholars, at any given time. Why is the 18th century such a marker?

But, I'll give you sources:
- Marin Barleti, in both his books, "The Siege of Shkodra" (1504) and "History of Scanderbeg"(1508) mentions the illyrian lineage of Albanians.
- Frang Bardhi does the same in biography of George Skanderbeg in 1636.
- Both he, Pjeter Budi and Pjeter Bogdani, were educated at the "Illyrian College of Loretto". The latter one, from Prizren, was Archbishop of Skopje, and one of the leading local figures in Kosova in the Great Austrian-Turkish War of 1683-1699. He recruited a force of 6000 Albanian solders in Kosova under the Austrian army, and after Prishtina, went with them to capture Prizren. There he caught the plague and returned to Prishtina, where he died.

@factman
Nobody said that the Serbs are "visitors". But neither are Albanians visitors. Whether you accept or not the Illyrian lineage of Albanians, there's no credible historian that can deny that Albanians have been in the Balkans prior to roman conquest. In fact, had this argument not been politicized, would have been simply a matter of academic discussion.

But it was the Serbian argument, that Albanians were brought in the Balkans by the Turks in the 16th century, therefore must be exterminated, that has brought to the genocidal policies of Serbian state against the Albanians, not the other way around.

@Factman

No, of course that is nonsense. But the reason why Albanians say "Go back to your Russian steppes" is only because the Serbs say "Albanians came in the Balkans with Turkish Hordes".

So, this mutual stupidity. This is te reason why the Balkan is the poorest region in Europe.
We spend much more energy on obstructing our neighbour`s path, than paving our own.

Prizreni,

You wrote: Serbs found us here. You are the newcomers, we are the original inhabitants.

My ancestors came to America in 1893.

Am I less American than the Irish guy down the road from me who says his ancestors came in 1841?

Is it even a good question? What is the intention of even discussing this? To show some antecedent claim to land? Some superiority?

What if I answered, OK, yes, you came before, but I can piss farther than you can?

My house sits on land that likely belonged to Native American Indians living nearby. What? This is not my house? Not my land? I have a legal title and legal deed in my hand that says it is.

@RighteousBilly: "Prizren, there are a lot of historian who doubt Albanian origin. Ellyrians were mentioned last time in 3rd century and Albanians for the 1st time in 11th century. There is no evidence that links this huge gap of 800 years. Kaplan Resuli Burovic, albanologist, has a different theory who are Albanians."

There's also a reference from Stephanus of Byzantium in the 6th century AD. But these are dark ages, where there's not much documentation anyway, where Byzantium Empire lost control over and again of these territories, that were ruled for 3 centuries by the Bulgarian empire, and wave after wave of migrations: after Goths came the Gepids, followed by the Huns, followed by the Avars, followed by the Slavs, Bulgars, Magyars and Cumans and Pechenegs and Mongols, etc. etc. There's not much references of what happened to other ethnic groups as well. So the gap is not just with Albanians, but with every other Balkan people. There's also disputes of the origins of the Romanians.

As for Kaplan Resuli, he is an Albanologist, as much as I am astronaut. Not only he doesn't have any education, or worked in area remotely related to Albanology, all he did is write a few articles with outlandish claims but no scientific substance.

@bishop: "Albanians invented this myth only after they saw the Croat/Serb Illyrian Movement; [link]
If anything there was never a mention of the Albanian-Illyrian myth before the Austrians invented it (just like they invented the country of Albania) to undermine Serbia;"

Bishop, in one sentence you say that Albanians invented the myth, in the next you say that Austrians invented it. You're confused. Maybe next, you'll say that evolution isn't true, because nobody spoke about it before Charles Darwin in the 19th century.

And if Bogdani, Skenderbeg and Barleti were Serbs, why didn't they say so, but said instead that they are Albanians?

@ prizreni
ahhh yes the Austrians invented the myth and the Albanians jumped on the bandwagon right away...ahhh is this all you have in your rebuttal? weak...simply ignoring my questions? show us the specific books and pages on which these old "albanian historians" (from before the 19th century) made the claim that the "ancient illyrians were albanians"...they do NOT exist...

@prizreni
hahaha you post a number of pictures that say "illyria" in it and links to two books which neither have a SINGLE word saying "the ancient illyrians are albanians"! this is your "proof"? hahahaha just see my posts below again and let me know when you invent a new "source". funny how you just ignore my comment about skenderbegs father and brother being buried in a serbian church! these serbs were the ancestors he was referring to in your letter! haha... too easy

That why nonserbs are here in B92 because like here now for PM Mustafa Serbs calling him every kind names idiot vampire mustafack... O Serbians numpty tubes here we are debating find facts and tell us your reasons simply as that

I will permit to you to show to me all the documents you want to convince to us that Kosovo was part of Serbia!
(Joni, 19 April 2016 16:32)

Check history from 1912 and the international peace agreements after the First Balkan War that brokered territorial acquisitions for Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria and work your way from there.
(the actual truth, 19 April 2016 17:05)

Joni, so what our dear friend "the actual truth" is saying, is that it is your job (Joni's) to find the evidence supporting the arguments of "the actual truth".

That's how the quest for the actual truth works for our dear friend "the actual truth" :)
(icj1, 19 April 2016 20:38)

icj1,the actual truth is making available the source of the facts Joni is seeking.
(Sacre Bleu, 19 April 2016 23:33)

Oh, Ok! I'm then similarly making available the source of the fact that Kosovo was not part of Serbia:

Check history from 1912 and the international peace agreements after the First Balkan War that brokered territorial acquisitions for Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria and work your way from there

:)

1. «презренный» (prezreni) is the Russian for “the despised”.
I'm glad, because we despise you even more than you despise us. You lot are the dictionary definition of a primitive, cattle-like attitude that needs a strongman at the top, small mindedness and religious fanaticism. You will never be a great power because you don't operate on principle but on petty interest.

2. Please explain why would a man like Putin keep his money where his enemies control everything?
You poor things, Putin has put you in a world where you feel surrounded by enemies. It's a classical mind control strategy, and a populace with a cattle-like attitude is prone to be manipulated like that. Have you seen the movie Underground of Kusturica? You are in the basement, heroically toiling for the fatherland in a war made up by your leader, who reaps the fruit of your labor.

Can you explain, how does exactly his best friend, a violoncellist, is able to have 2 billion in an offshore account? Are you really that indoctrinated?


3. "So don’t worry about poverty in Russia but worry about the poor Shqips around you."
Alright, you do the same then. I have said it before on this board: Stop talking about Albanians, and Albanians will stop coming here to correct you. That's all.

Prizren stands for Roman city named Prisdriana,as Pec stands for Pescium,Lipjan for Ulpiana.Novobordo.These names were Slavized when occupied Kosovo,first Bulgarians,after Serbs with Nemanja.

Prizren, there are a lot of historian who doubt Albanian origin. Ellyrians were mentioned last time in 3rd century and Albanians for the 1st time in 11th century. There is no evidence that links this huge gap of 800 years. Kaplan Resuli Burovic, albanologist, has a different theory who are Albanians. Many other historians claim different from Albanian national ideology that was started by Austria-Hungary empire in order to make Serbs have enemy. This painting of Paja Jovanovic what does it proove? That Paja Jovanovic was painting Albanains in Kosovo battle, that he tought that Albanians fought there? He never said that. Maybe he was possed by some ghost so he painted that without even knowing. When he woke up he saw, but it was too late. :)

@prizreni
Still waiting for the specific books and pages (from prior to the 19th century) by those "famous" albanian historians that made the claims (back then) that the albanians are descendants of the illyrians....

you ask why didn't skenderbeg say he was a serb? well Skenderbeg’s father and brother did as they were buried in the Serbian monastery of Hilandar! Also take a look at the Skenderbeg coat of arms - it is from the imperial SERB house!

@prizren
take a good look at Europe in 814http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/europe_charlemagne_814.htm
take a good look at where todays Azerbaijan is for your background...enough said...

while you were in asia this is what was going on in kosovo; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#Exonym_of_Serbs

@bishop: " well Skenderbeg’s father and brother did as they were buried in the Serbian monastery of Hilandar!"

Not really. The monasteries at the time were both Serbian and Albanian. Gjon Kastrioti, donated a large sum of money and purchased adelphates and property in the monastery. In his honor St George tower was known as the Albanian Tower (Arbanaški pirg). That fact alone tells that they were not Serbian, but Albanian. Gjon's son Reposhi, after being taken as a hostage with his other brothers to Sultan's court and seeing his first two brothers poisoned, decided to become a monk and spend his life at the monastery, where he died.

@prizren
you prove my point! the Kastrioti family was SERBIAN! that is why they gave money for the serbian church! the theft just never ends for Albanians; Kosovo, Serb churches (which are at the same time Albanian for you and which you also destroy, over 150 since 99'), now milios obilic is albanian, alexander the great, plato, aristotle etc unreal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism#Myths_of_autochthony_and_primacy

also there are no albanian toponyms in Kosovo; http://www.kosovo.net/history/kosovo_origins/ko_chapter13.html

on the illyrian claim;
Most of what is known about the Illyrian language comes from Greek and Roman sources which mostly relate to personal and oronime names. Yet even this is insufficient to provide a firm basis for an uninterrupted link between the Illyrians and contemporary Albanians.

@icj
go and solve the isreali and palestinian problem first and then poke your nose in the balkans...the illyrian myth is at the core of albanian myth since invented in the 19th century, this is what justifies their theft of land (deeds) and history as i just outlined in my previous post...

There are so many Illyrian artefacts in Kosova and Albania. Premier Mustafa's office has a painting featuring two small dardan statues who were found in Kosova. Great linguist and archeologist Stipcevic is Albanian and he wrote that the word Kosovo derives from the word "Kos" yogurt in Albanian. At the beginning of his career he thought that Croats were Illyrians but then he changed his mind and said that Albanians were the real Illyrians. So he wrote many articles and published them in many foreign magazines even in China.

@Bishop

This is how Scanderbeg refers to his race in a letter to the Prince of Taranto, in 1461:
"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom addressed us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely be held by the Romans. This Pirro, who held Taranto and many other places of Italy with his armies.

I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania was part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things has not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"

Free, Thanks for the comment. I agree.

Prizreni: Next time you encounter an ignorant Serb like that tell them to look at their most famous painting and ask them what they see at the bottom left of the painting?
http://www.varvar.ru/en/serbian-art/predic/images/uros-predic-1-kosovka_devojka.jpg

While I agree with the spirit and tone of your reply, and am sorry to say that there are many Serbs like the ones you describe, I'd ask you to go a few steps further and ask yourself:

What created the Serbia of the 90's? Did they just wake up one day and set out on a "murderous land grab" as we are led to believe?

C'mon. Those are fairy tales for kids.

It's convenient to have a "bad guy"

Here are some articles from the 80's before Milosevic even came to power.

http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/benworks/1980news.html

@factman
"Is it even a good question? What is the intention of even discussing this? To show some antecedent claim to land? Some superiority?"

Well, this is a very politicized issue, and yes for someone that grew in America, it's pointless. In any normal environment this should have only been debated by historians, linguists etc. But in Yugoslavia, it became part of the toxic mix, and stood right next to the argument that the state should deport all the Albanians from Yugoslavia. That's why it hits home to a lot of people. In a normal democratic country, all citizens should have the right to decide what their future should be like, not just those that came before or after a certain date.

As for what caused the '90: There were many factors, and there was a continuum of history that led to the '90. What started the destruction of Yugoslavia was a single cockroach. But there is perhaps a discussion for another day.

@bishop
I showed you a reference, scroll below and you'll see the letter that Scanderbeg sent to the Prince of Taranto, reminding him how his ancestors protected Taranto from Rome 2000 years prior. You choose to ignore it. The letter was written in 10 October 1460, and is stored in the State Archives of Milano.
[http://tinyurl.com/scand1] [http://tinyurl.com/Scand2]
Marin Barleti, titles his main book as "Historia de Vita et Gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarvm Pricipis"; [http://tinyurl.com/barleti]
He uses Albanian and Epirotan interchangeably through the book. Epirus Nova or Illyris proper was the province of the Roman Empire established by Dioclecian, corresponding more or less to the current country of Albania. [http://tinyurl.com/EpirusNova]
Austrians didn't invent anything because it was a common knowledge throughout the ages that Albanians, and Illyrians were the same people. For example "Illyrici Sacri" of Daniele Farlato, published in 1751, makes the case abundantly clear [http://tinyurl.com/illyricum-sacrum]
Or this [http://tinyurl.com/whincop], by Thomas Whincop, 1747.
I can be here all day giving you references, but you have to do your own research, if you really want to learn. But I will end up with these:
http://tinyurl.com/zungnlq
http://tinyurl.com/j5akagd
http://tinyurl.com/zyaxxr5
http://tinyurl.com/zzs4oyx

@bishop & @Therret Prizreni

guys/gals, I'm not sure what is the point of your debate. For once, I agree with factman that regardless of whom of you is right and regardless of who came first in the Balkans, every property owner today has a legal title and legal deed in their hand that says their house is theirs (if there is any property conflicts, there are courts for that). Who lived in their parcel of land 1000 or 1500 years ago is totally irrelevant.

So, unless you're debating who came first in the the Balkans for academic purposes, you're probably wasting your time :)

@bishop
"the illyrian myth is at the core of albanian myth since invented in the 19th century, this is what justifies their theft of land (deeds)"

First of all, the Albanian claim on Kosova is not based on whether the Albanians descend from Illyrians or not. It is based first and foremost, on the fact that Albanians make 95% of the population on Kosova, that they have the universal right to statehood, that they have rejected the Serb rule imposed on them in 1912 through bloodshed, genocide and state terror, and the subsequent persecution that they have suffered collectively.

Serbia invaded Kosova and held it by right of conquest, until a bigger power beat up Serbia and forced it to give it up. The Kumanovo agreement effectively cancelled Serbia's right of conquest of 1912. This bigger power (NATO) recognized Kosova's right to self-determination, therefore the Kosova's declaration of Independence. End of story. None of this has anything to do with Illyrians, or non Illyrians.

Get it through your heads, there is no deed for a country, such a thing does not exist. It might serve as a poetic expression in a nationalist rally, but in reality a deed for a country is an oxymoron.

@factman:
The difference between an invader and a liberator is the support of the people. So, no Serbia didn't liberate Kosova in 1912, but invaded it.

Surprised that you link to Magna Carta as your "deed" over Kosova. Might as well have pointed me a driver's manual, that's how much relevance it has in the case. So clearly you have no "deed"!


"This frozen conflict can only become unfrozen through dialogue & compromise"

And it doesn't seem like Serbia is willing to compromise in recognizing Kosova, so I guess we'll have to wait for the conflict to disappear when the Serbs of Kosova die of old age.

The difference between an invader and a liberator is the support of the people. So, no Serbia didn't liberate Kosova in 1912, but invaded it.

** Interesting. To those once forcibly evicted by an agressor, it was indeed liberation. And by the way, Europe applauded.



Surprised that you link to Magna Carta as your "deed" over Kosova. Might as well have pointed me a driver's manual, that's how much relevance it has in the case. So clearly you have no "deed"!

** The link was to remind you that "Property Rights" began with the Magna Carta 800 years ago (since you developed some concept to nullify them). Civilized Europe honors chain of title & legal deed. Uncontestable. Period. There are many such commercial deeds.



"This frozen conflict can only become unfrozen through dialogue & compromise"

And it doesn't seem like Serbia is willing to compromise in recognizing Kosova, so I guess we'll have to wait for the conflict to disappear when the Serbs of Kosova die of old age

** Funny. I enjoyed your posts & I thought you interesting, but to you "compromise" means the other guy must "recognize." If so, what will you compromise? Do you really think they will ever recognize? Not likely.

** Serbs did not die out in 500 years of Ottoman bloodsuckers. Why would they die out now? As Serbia continues its economic ascent at the center of CEFTA, it's pretty predictable that they will ensure that K Serbs thrive.

What Mustafa meant was that since the Albanians have been at least for centuries (i emphasize: at least) the majority in Kosovo, and since the guys who decided the international borders in Berlin, Paris, London etc never cared about the wish of the people of Kosovo, that means that Kosovo was never part of Serbia by its people wish but was forced.

Anyway that doesn`t mean that Mustafa isn`t a piece of sh... just like Nikolic, Ivanov etc.

The politicians in the Balkan use nationalist rhetoric for smoke and mirrors. The only way fpr the people in the Balkan to have a decent life and a decent future is to learn to coexist and to understand that we are all mutually dependent. We like it or not we`re on the same boat. We will sail together or we all sink together.

@prizreni
the "importance" of having NO mention of ANY Albanian source from prior to the 19th century shows ZERO continuity for a culture. Albanians invented this myth only after they saw the Croat/Serb Illyrian Movement; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement
If anything there was never a mention of the Albanian-Illyrian myth before the Austrians invented it (just like they invented the country of Albania) to undermine Serbia;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism#Myths_of_autochthony_and_primacy
Prior to Johann Georg von Hahn, there were no lies about Pelasgians, Illyrians and Albanians...
Bogdani, Skenderbeg, Kastrioit and even Barleti were all of Serb heritage...nowhere is anything mentioned about "albanians being illyrian" in "the siege of shkodra" and if anything historians know what type of typical liar come from this region;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Siege_of_Shkodra_(book)#Criticism_and_Defense

Show us any specific books and pages from this time where it states; "the 19th century Albanians are descendants of the ancient illyrians", do it...YOU WILL NEVER FIND ONE!

@bishop: "hahaha you post a number of pictures that say "illyria" in it and links to two books which neither have a SINGLE word saying "the ancient illyrians are albanians"! this is your "proof"? "

You asked me to show you 1 Albanian source prior 18th cent. that claims that Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians. I gave you evidence that Scanderbeg made that claim in the 15th century.
Than you claimed that there was an "Albanian-Illyrian myth" that was invented by the Austrians in the 19th century, "to undermine Serbia" of all things. I showed you evidence that even before the 19th century in European literature Albanians were routinely considered as descendants of Illyrians.

I never said that this was "the proof". You have to still answer my question from previous post:
"How is that of any consequence? I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. Why does 1 Albanian source prior to the 18th century, have any more weight scientifically than thousands of studies, books, research, archaeological excavations from Albanian and non-Albanian scholars, at any given time. Why is the 18th century such a marker?"

@bishop: "you prove my point! the Kastrioti family was SERBIAN! that is why they gave money for the serbian church!"

According to the Russian pilgrim Isaiah, the monasteries in the area were both Albanian and Serb. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilandar
So, the tower is known in their honor as the Albanian Tower and that proves that they were Serbian? You make absolutely no sense!

"also there are no albanian toponyms in Kosovo;"

Today's Lipjan comes from ancient Ulpiana. Skopje comes from Scupi. Nish comes from Naissus. You are proven wrong again.


"Most of what is known about the Illyrian language comes from Greek and Roman sources which mostly relate to personal and oronime names."
And some of those relate to modern Albanian: Bardylis-Bardh Ylli (white star); sika-thika(knife), aspetos-shpejtë(fast),bilia-bijë,bilë(daughter),aran-arë(field),delme-dele(sheep),ulkin-ulk,ujk(wolf) etc, etc.

@prizren
-the theft in kosovo was done through the ONLY genocide that ever happened there and that was the long term genocide of the serbs who were the VAST majority for over 1,000 years before the late 1800s when the albanians ethnically cleansed 500,000 serbs from kosovo (just look at teh domographic history of the place!);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo

-because of the above the illyrian myth becomes a major factor for albo nationalism as they were hardly ever IN kosovo...a lie needed to invented to justify attempt to steal the land (when nato leaves it will open a whole new chapter in the serb-albo relations)

-your "letters" or "books" have proven NOTHING at all...there is not a single word in any of them by "albanian historians" from the 19th century that claimed the ancient illyrians were albos....

Most of what is known about the Illyrian language comes from Greek and Roman sources which mostly relate to personal and oronime names. Yet even this is insufficient to provide a firm basis for an uninterrupted link between the Illyrians and contemporary Albanians.
This unique and indisputable fact that there are no Albanian toponyms in Kosovo and Metohia evidently does not fit in with the numerous demands, statements and wishes of the secessionist parties and chauvinistic Shiptars and Albanians because they have always constantly avoided this theme.

http://www.kosovo.net/history/kosovo_origins/ko_chapter13.html

@prizren
-i showed you the map below from 814...not only kosovo but all of Albania was serbia...it was serbian before and after the turks were kicked back to Asia, so there was no "invasion" but a liberation
-again show or post a specific document or book and say "on such and such page in this book" do the Albanian historians in the 15th 16th 17th or 18th century claim illyrians are albanian...you claim to have shown this proof but you have not and it does not exist

Prizreni,

You overstretch.

The Nemanja Dynasty controlled K as early as 1166. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Nemanja

That land & others of the Serb state were forcibly taken by Ottomans beginning 1389

500 years later the Serb state re-conquered those lands. K was not a state; nor self-governing; nor autonomous.

S was justified in re-conquering lands from an Empire who subjected citizens to extreme hardship (if not genocide); stole toddlers to create Jannisaries to serve the Sultan; and practiced Cultural Genocide (erasing pre-existing culture)

To the UN, the “bigger power” had no legal standing to do what it did, nor recognize. The world is not run by military alliances, but rather “Rule of Law” agreed upon & practiced by each nation-state and UN Security Council

S did not sign-away K at Kumanovo. If it did, explain the persistent effort to get S to recognize K (thereby legalizing the crime of the “bigger power”) by all manner of threat, coercion, deceit, manipulation, trickery, and diplomacy?

There most certainly is “legal deed” & “chain of title” for all real-estate in this world and it was first established in the Magna Carta. See: http://www.propertyrightsalliance.org/magna-carta-rule-law-property-rights-a3082

Property can only be taken away by suspending law (one definition of a pariah government)

This frozen conflict can only become unfrozen through dialogue & compromise

10 NATO’s cannot change that fact.

@bishop,
Oh so Trotcky is a communist propagandist when it doesn't suit you, not a Russian war correspondent following your troops. And the International Commission on the Balkan Wars? http://tinyurl.com/h4fc4pg

- New York Times? http://tinyurl.com/zsllydn
"Servian army left a trail of blood. Thousands of Men, Women and Children massacred in March To Sea. Executions a daily sport. Terrible Atrocities the Result of Deliberate Policy to Exterminate Moslems"

Those men, women and children and infants at the breast were the Ottoman foot solders that oppressed you for 500 years? The typical genocide apologist's excuse!

- Leo Freundlich? http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1913_1.html
"The thousand and thousands of men, women, children and old people who have been slain or tortured to death, the villages marauded and burnt to the ground, the women and young girls who have been raped, and the countryside plundered, ravaged and swimming in blood can give no answer to this question.
The Serbs came to Albania not as liberators but as exterminators of the Albanian people."

- Dimitrije Tucovic (The Serbian army captain)
"We have carried out the attempted premeditated murder of an entire nation. We were caught in that criminal act and have been obstructed."

@bishop
"I don't deny revenge acts took place after the Serbs freed themselves but you were Ottoman foot soldiers who oppressed them for 500 years."

- Lev Bronstein, Kievskaya Mysl: http://tinyurl.com/hrfqf5k
"The Serbs in order to correct data in the ethnographical statistics not quite favorable to them, are engaged quite simply in the systematic extermination of the Muslim population"

- Kosta Novakovic http://www.kosova.com/arkivi1997/expuls/dok5.htm
"In 1912 and 1913, 120,000 Albanians were exterminated - men, women, boys, old men and women, children - hundreds of villages were shot by heavy guns, a large number of them were burned down, more in Kosova and less in Macedonia."

Kosovo is much better off under Serbia.
This will become a third world country if it continues like this.
The EU is smart. They do not want Muslim countries in the European Union.
All you need to do is see the circle of people who make these decisions.
They talk unity, think money and act in racism. No Muslim run country will ever be in the EU. EVER!!!!!!! They cannot afford it, and will not allow the threat to be posed. Serbia can have no ties to Kosovo going into the EU. Vucic knowing this will plan his recognition, not before making a mini Serbia in Kosovo to which money and power will later control the Serbian interest through corrupt Albanians. This guy is a thinker. He will exert influence through certain channels once in the EU. Forget about these media reports of independence. The Albanian people are going to get taken for a really long ride here. From London most of us cannot even believe how stupid these people are not to realize their so called liberation is a economic death sentence. John McCain goes no where and was in Serbia recently. He also sits on the senate sub committee for defense appropriations. Nato and EU are on the cards for Serbia. Vucic is doing what Tito done, playing both sides on paper. Reality is, USA will own Serbia and Serbia will own Kosovo, All indirectly of course. CIA's biggest station network and intelligence front is Belgrade. Russia as an ally is gone, all Serbia's money and aid now is from USA and EU.

Putin and Dacic have their money in off the shore companies. These are tiny shell companies founded by dictators to hide their millions and avoid paying taxes in their countries. Putin is smart because he uses his close friends names and give them money. Asad and Ahmedinejad are also in the same list of people who won these tiny shell companies.

>>>There are no DIRECTproofs about the fact that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians.

This time I wasn't talking about that. I was just saying that if Albanians trust American "real politics" - that's a mistake and the reason is simply that the people who are in American establishment cannot be different than their being. And their being is to serve their interests no matter the truth or even America's own interests.

And in addition to that most are after legal education - and American legal system is completely broken.

The picture does resemble the Soviet Union.

And I also wrote about my non-existing Mercedes, which - I can claim in America - Count of Kosova did steal. I can pay Rote a bribe an he will tell that in the court as a fake witness. Than, Count of Kosova is out of luck because he can't sue both of us back for forgery and perjury (in America).

In Kosovo (or in Russia or in Hungary or in Germany) for such thing I am not only going to pay Count of Kosova all the $40000 back, I will pay for all his damages and get a good 2-3 years in jail.

By allowing such dishonesty and such abuses of the justice, American court system de-facto encourages lying under oath, lawyers being dishonest and guess, what is the background of most politicians? Lawyer, of course.

This is why many Americans do not understand, how come some politicians with lawyer education like Mandela, Gandhi, etc. have backbone. The answer is: they are not American lawyers.

"And I also wrote about my non-existing Mercedes, which - I can claim in America - Count of Kosova did steal. I can pay Rote a bribe an he will tell that in the court as a fake witness. Than, Count of Kosova is out of luck because he can't sue both of us back for forgery and perjury (in America"

SJ stay with what you know. In the description above you would be charged with felonies, to include forgery and theft. Your friend would also be charged as an accomplice. Your worrying about perjury is mute as perjury is a midemeanor. Most of your negative US comments are also based on false analogies and misconceptions.

@icj
go and solve the isreali and palestinian problem first and then poke your nose in the balkans...the illyrian myth is at the core of albanian myth since invented in the 19th century, this is what justifies their theft of land (deeds) and history as i just outlined in my previous post...
(bishop, 24 April 2016 16:55)

Not sure what the illyrian myth is; I said nothing about "illyrian". Is that something you came up with?

If somebody stole your parcel of land and/or got a deed on your parcel of land by fraud, feel free to notify the police and/or sue them in court. Bloggers here are not going to be able to help you on that so it's a pointless discussion.

Just a piece of advice when you go to court; you are likely to loose if your only "evidence" is the one you are presenting here about who lived on your parcel of land 1500 years ago lol

@icj
I agree and according to the majority of the world and the UN Kosovo is still part of Serbia (just like it was in 814, 1389 and after it was liberated from the genocidal Turks in the early 1900s)...

just for the record; the "Illyrian" myth is not something that I invented but rather this theory was developed by the Austrian linguist Johann Georg von Hahn in his work Albanesiche Studien in 1854 (it was something the Albaniacs quickly gravitated to as in their "minds" it gave them a historic "right" to Kosovo as they could not justify stealing another nations land in any other way);

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism#Myths_of_autochthony_and_primacy

Bishop, you set up a straw-man's argument, and even that argument you lost. You conveniently choose to ignore my question.


@bishop: "Illyrian" myth is not something that I invented but rather this theory was developed by the Austrian linguist Johann Georg von Hahn in his work Albanesiche Studien in 1854 (it was something the Albaniacs quickly gravitated to as in their "minds" it gave them a historic "right" to Kosovo as they could not justify stealing another nations land in any other way"

Ok, explain to me this one: Illyrians inhabited the entire western Balkans. Why did Albanians used this "Illyrian myth", to claim just Kosova and not Dubrovnik for example or Dalmatia or any other territories previously inhabited by Illyrians? If they could not justify stealing Kosova in any other way, why not use the same way/myth to steal a few more prosperous lands? Why not steal those more prosperous lands to begin with? If I was to steal a bank, I would not go for the pennies, I would go for the gold bars. Can you explain that to me?


@bishop: "i showed you the map below from 814" ... and I can show you a map from 2016, which obviously has more relevance that 814. And in my map, Kosova is independent.

@bishop, this is how Serbia's "liberation" of Kosova looked like in 1912:

"Houses and whole villages reduced to ashes, unarmed and innocent populations massacred en masse, incredible acts of violence, pillage and brutality of every kind — such were the means which were employed and are still being employed by the Serbo-Montenegrin soldiery, with a view to the entire transformation of the ethnic character of regions inhabited exclusively by Albanians." — Report of the International Commission on the Balkan Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Albanians_in_the_Balkan_Wars


Or this, by Leo Trotsky:

"Burning was going on all around us. Entire Albanian villages had been turned into pillars of fire... In all its fiery monotony this picture was repeated the whole way to Skopje... For two days before my arrival in Skopje the inhabitants had woken up in the morning to the sight, under the principal bridge over the Vardar- that is, in the very centre of the town- of heaps of Albanian corpses with severed heads. Some said that these were local Albanians, killed by the cjetniks, others that the corpses were brought down to the bridge by the waters of the Vardar. What was clear was that these headless men had not been killed in battle."
http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1912_2.html

or this:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/26/kosovo.serbia

@prizren
All this went on and the population of Albanians just kept skyrocketing right? Give me a break! You quote a communist propagandist like Trotsky?

As if the Serbs did anything even close to what your Turk brothers did when they forced out and then killed millions of Armenians and Greeks when they formed modern turkey! I don't deny revenge acts took place after the Serbs freed themselves but you were Ottoman foot soldiers who oppressed them for 500 years.

1912 shows that the Serbs did NOT take revenge against the Albanians once liberating Kosovo. Albanians lived there even after occupying it the late 1800s by killing off and ethnically cleansing 400,000 Serbs;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo#19th_century
Albanians even sided with Hitler and killed 10,000 Serbs and forced out 100,000 in ww2 and still were ok to live in Serbia;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg

the wealthiest group of albanians in balkan history lived in serbia post ww2 (while their brothers were in bondage in Albania)! Your own parents emigrated from Yugoslavia and NOT Albania! this is why you have a computer and was born in the West...you are welcome...

@icj
I agree and according to the majority of the world and the UN Kosovo is still part of Serbia
(bishop, 25 April 2016 15:17)

Well, Kosovo declared independence and the whole world accepted it.

As far as UN is concerned, UN bodies decided that Kosovo should become independent of Serbia.
----------

(just like it was in 814, 1389 and after it was liberated from the genocidal Turks in the early 1900s)...
(bishop, 25 April 2016 15:17)

Ok, as it was part of the Byzantium and Roman Empires before then. So not sure what point you are trying to make!
----------

just for the record; the "Illyrian" myth is not something that I invented but rather this theory was developed by the Austrian linguist Johann Georg von Hahn in his work Albanesiche Studien in 1854 (it was something the Albaniacs quickly gravitated to as in their "minds" it gave them a historic "right" to Kosovo as they could not justify stealing another nations land in any other way);
(bishop, 25 April 2016 15:17)

Well, again, I did not refer to any illyrian stuff, so since you brought it up you must believe in it, not me :)

But, it appears you have a problem with some land that keeps you sleepless at night! What parcel of land are you referring to? Who was(were) the person(s) that stole it? Did you sue them in court and do you have a deed on that parcel of land to prove your claims, if any?

serbs who were the VAST majority for over 1,000 years before the late 1800s when the albanians ethnically cleansed 500,000 serbs from kosovo (just look at teh domographic history of the place!);
[link]
(bishop, 25 April 2016 02:43)

Did you actually look at the "domographic" history of the place in the link YOU provided?! In that link, the max number of Serbs ever living in Kosovo was 318000 in 1871. So, how can 500000 Serbs be ethnically cleansed from Kosovo if there were never 500000 Serbs in Kosovo to start with?!

You don't need to humiliate yourself like that, mate :)

@bishop: "what a weak attempt to try an continue a "debate" you were crushed in:
Yeah right, you couldn't scratch your own straw-man:
bishop: "show me 1 Albanian source prior 18th cent. that claims that Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians" - Scanderbeg in the 15th century. (gave you evidence too)
Then you switched to the Albanian historians from the 19th century, but you couldn't answer why the Albanian historians from the 19th century are more relevant that the Albanian historians from the 20th century.
Then you couldn't answer why the Albanians used this "Illyrian myth" to just steal Kosova when they could have stolen some more prosperous lands once inhabited by Illyrians.
Then you couldn't answer how did naming a tower as the "Albanian Tower" in honor Gjon Kastrioti, made him a Serb not Albanian.
I know that delusion is the most prominent Serbian trait and you're giving a pretty entertaining example of that. With a crush like this, who would need a tickle.
Is your name Milos by the way, because you sound just like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUaMzsNKR7Q

@bishop
"As if the Serbs did anything even close to what your Turk brothers did when they forced out and then killed millions of Armenians and Greeks when they formed modern turkey!"

Is this your justification of the genocide? That you didn't do it as much as the Turks?
In the morbid toplist of the European genocide perpetrators, you rank up high at the top together with the Turks, and the examples that you follow are quite telling. Or as Vasa Cubrilovic, reasoned at "The Expulsion of the Albanians": "At a time when Germany can expel tens of thousands of Jews and Russia can shift millions of people from one part of the continent to another, the expulsion of the Albanians will not lead to the outbreak of a world war"

@prizren
what a weak attempt to try an continue a "debate" you were crushed in...still waiting for the books and specific PAGES in which the great albanian historians form the 19th century made the illyrian claim...your lack of response and proof shows what type of pathetic points you are trying to make...

"Milosevic removed autonomy, them Kosovo was part of (the Federal Repubulic) of Serbian within YU."

Milosevic removed autonomy with a military regime, the proper term for it is occupation. Kosova was part of Serbia as much as Iraq was part of USA.

Never was, never will.

There's more than 85 years of paperwork that says otherwise. Albanians seem to still be living in their own Hoxha North Korean type reality.
(the actual truth, 19 April 2016 14:59)

I will permit to you to show to me all the documents you want to convince to us that Kosovo was part of Serbia!
Those documents will make you "down" - for that i'm sure you will not show to us!
And if you show to me the Battle of Kosovo!
Let me show to you the Battle of Belgrade (1456) - in which HUNGARY fought against Turks!
If Kosovo belong to you just from a battle then Belgrade belong to Hungary!

Serbs can lie and go mad as much as they want. Case closed.

It's point of no return. Cost us a lot. Future I see Kosova in EU or join Albania. Simply evolution its called. And border with Serbia Berlin Wall best is for either of us

"As Erdogan said, "Kosova is Turkey" and I think he may have a point. Kosovo i Metohija (KiM) is and will always be Serbia. The occupation will be defeated and our Albanians can all go home to "Kosova". Erdogan will be waiting to welcome you all."

Thats it Zoran, keep flattering yourself. Do you mean you will do to Albabnians what Croats did you you in Krajina? Where are those izbeglicas now?

I will permit to you to show to me all the documents you want to convince to us that Kosovo was part of Serbia!
(Joni, 19 April 2016 16:32)

Check history from 1912 and the international peace agreements after the First Balkan War that brokered territorial acquisitions for Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria and work your way from there.
(the actual truth, 19 April 2016 17:05)

Joni, so what our dear friend "the actual truth" is saying, is that it is your job (Joni's) to find the evidence supporting the arguments of "the actual truth".

That's how the quest for the actual truth works for our dear friend "the actual truth" :)

Kosovo never belonged to Albanians.

Therret Prizreni : Kosova was part of Serbia as much as Iraq was part of USA.

I wonder if there’s a meningitis epidemic in Kosovo? Or maybe denying the evident is a new trend in this land … Looks like politicians on both sides became provocateurs to keep up the fire. But what makes you to do the above silly statement? What is your personal interest? Is it a kind of a hypnosis or self-hypnosis?

A land deed sits in a file cabinet somewhere in Belgrade that was signed by the League of Nations.

It says otherwise.
(factman, 19 April 2016 15:51)

What a shame that nobody is able to find that file cabinet in Belgrade where that land deed sits lol

All for local consumption. What is Kosovo? Its a prison for Albanians with no future prospects and no hope. At the first opportunity the Albanians shoot out of their paradise for greener pastures never to return. The west has abandoned them with no investment whatsoever and depleted uranium that has not been cleaned up where farmers plough fields and plant crops in soil that is so contaminated it causes cancer rates to spike beyond belief.

Then there is the Brussels Agreement. Mustapha et al signed it which means a sell out where the Serb minority can veto anything Pristina proposes and Serbs can vote for the elections in Serbia proper which is so strange since Kosova is independent LOL. I have never heard of this before, but to paste over this, out comes this nonsense about Kosovo was never Serbian etc.
You have to hand it to the Albanian pollies, they certain can lead a horse to water and make it drink; that is an Albanian horse.

Pristina will never be part of the solution for serbs. People who are allowing warcriminals to become decisionmakers and undermining the desecration of hundreds of churches and monasteries in Kosovo should not be trusted. The only thing albanians can do for everyone else is create problems.

Therret Prizreni: Kosova was part of Serbia as much as Iraq was part of USA.

I wonder if there’s a meningitis epidemic in Kosovo? Or maybe denying the evident is a new trend in this land … Looks like politicians on both sides became provocateurs to keep up the fire. But what makes you to do the above silly statement? What is your personal interest? Is it a kind of a hypnosis or self-hypnosis?

I will permit to you to show to me all the documents you want to convince to us that Kosovo was part of Serbia!
(Joni, 19 April 2016 16:32)

Check history from 1912 and the international peace agreements after the First Balkan War that brokered territorial acquisitions for Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria and work your way from there.

I know educational standards in Albania are and have been some of the lowest in Europe for decades, but empirical evidence trumps whatever delusions you're using in your reply.

mustafa looks like a vampire

That's a bold statement form a guy named Mustafack,

rote: "How do you know that Shqips lived there always? Please give me a single artefact or an ancient document or any other evidence! If not kindly shut up."

Ignorance is not an argument, Rote. I'm not here to lecture you and open your eyes when you want to keep them shut. There is a whole field of Illyrian and Proto-Albanian studies, archaeological, anthropological, ethnological, linguistic evidence that I can't bring to you in a blog post, but you can start from here:

http://issuu.com/haemus/docs/archeokosovo/109?e=0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnLbqqZmF2E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn0Ssffhfzg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZW4rl6smfk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLVZWExsryo
http://www.tauresium.info/english/

Or start from some books:
https://books.google.com/books?id=NLcWAQAAIAAJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=lG8VAQAAIAAJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=4Nv6SPRKqs8C

Or go visit any of the dozen archaeological museums or sites in both Albania and Kosova.

The few known words from Illyrian can only be explained from Albanian: sika-thika(knife),aspetos-shpejtë(fast),bilia-bijë,bilë(daughter),aran-arëfield),delme-dele(sheep),ulkin-ulk,ujk(wolf) etc, etc. The earliest known Illyrian king was Hyllus, which in Albanian means Star(Yll). Bardhylus was the White Star, a king who fought on horseback up until he was 90 years old.

As Erdogan said, "Kosova is Turkey" and I think he may have a point. Kosovo i Metohija (KiM) is and will always be Serbia. The occupation will be defeated and our Albanians can all go home to "Kosova". Erdogan will be waiting to welcome you all.

There's more than 85 years of paperwork that says otherwise. Albanians seem to still be living in their own Hoxha North Korean type reality.

Mustafa's brain has been scrambled from too many Kurti eggs hitting his brain. How is the visa application going for his "dead" brother.

@ the actual truth

This is the most ‘stupid’ answer for a patriotic Serb, who claim that Kosovo was always Serbian.
You just embarrassing yourself and your own with this comment. Because you just confirm what Albanians always “shout loud” Kosovo in an unprecedented way was given to Serbia after the Balkan wars, no?? Never was part of Serbia!
I’m sorry to broke you again, and force you to CHECK back by yourself - even after 1913 ( not 1912 ). Oh, sugar – tell us about Kosovo status after 1913? When KOSOVO was added in Serbian constitution? Just saying... eee , as much as you told to me to check ….
Regarding to education standards – well Albanian IQ, is bigger than Serbian one, so imagine yourself how ignorant you are even with those standards.

@Ataman

There are no DIRECTproofs about the fact that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians.

There are only INDIRECT facts:
1. There are NO evidence, NOT a single one for any kind of "Albanian emigration", like we all know about Slaves, Nomads, Huns, Celts, Goths etc etc.
2. There are many Latin words in Albanian language.
3. There are several Illyrian names and words that are explained by Albanian language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages#Cognates_with_Albanian\
4. So, it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it swims like a duck, it quackes like a duck, then it`s probably a duck.


There are ONLY two problems that are the origin of "Albanian mystery":

First, the nationality in the Byzantine Empire was as important as lets say "favourite colour". Even today the historians can`t really be sure about the nationality of many of the Emperors or other personalities.

Second, is that the most of European languages are first written in Monasteries by the priest and the real foundation of States and Empires was the Church.

Well, Albanians never cared too much about religion, so they were not very fond of Monasteries or creating their own Church. Hence the lack of Albanian writings (or Albanian Church and so on).

We are the only people in the World to have had ATHEISM in CONSTITUTION!

But the lack of strong religion affiliations are not proof of the lack of existence.

I will permit to you to show to me all the documents you want to convince to us that Kosovo was part of Serbia!
(Joni, 19 April 2016 16:32)

Check history from 1912 and the international peace agreements after the First Balkan War that brokered territorial acquisitions for Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria and work your way from there.
(the actual truth, 19 April 2016 17:05)

Joni, so what our dear friend "the actual truth" is saying, is that it is your job (Joni's) to find the evidence supporting the arguments of "the actual truth".

That's how the quest for the actual truth works for our dear friend "the actual truth" :)
(icj1, 19 April 2016 20:38)

icj1,the actual truth is making available the source of the facts Joni is seeking.
(Sacre Bleu, 19 April 2016 23:33)

Oh, Ok! I'm then similarly making available the source of the fact that Kosovo was not part of Serbia:

Check history from 1912 and the international peace agreements after the First Balkan War that brokered territorial acquisitions for Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria and work your way from there

:)

(icj1, 19 April 2016 20:38)
You have to stop listening to those voices that are telling you lies
(sj, 20 April 2016 08:25)

Well, I often listen to what the CE of B92 forums sj has to say and refer to his/her arguments and analysis. So, it comes as a shock to me that you think that the CE of B92 forums sj is lying. B92 must ban you from these website for writing such heretic statement and offending the CE of B92 forums sj ;)

P.S. CE = Chief Economist

The early roman and greek loaned words in Albanian, indicate when these words first entered Albanian, and have been identified as before the roman conquest, which places proto-Albanians in a well defined geography. That geography is further defined by the large number of words with a common root with Romanian (Dacian).

There's no dispute among serious historians that proto-Albanians have been in the Balkans long before the slavic migrations. There are various theories as to the exact origins: Illyrian proprie dictii, or a mixture of Illyrian-Thracian-Dacian, but the basic facts remain the same: Serbs found us here. You are the newcomers, we are the original inhabitants.

Albanians were mentioned for the first time in recorded history not in the 12th century, but in the 2nd century BC, in the "History of the World" by Polybius, as the Albanoi tribe with their center at Albanopolis. Later the same name was applied to a much larger group of people, as it was a case with poles, rus, sorbi, franks etc.

What motivates the serbs to distort the history is not historical fact, but colonialist propaganda. Alexandar Stipcevic, the distinguished illyrologist, knew well the ins and outs of the Serbian Academic World. Here's how he describes it:
http://blog.chinadaily.com.cn/thread-1259248-1-1.html

--------------------
The Serbian archaeologist Milutin Garasanin represents a special case. In 1955, he wrote an article in the Prishtina periodical "Përparimi", in which he asserted that the Albanians are the direct descendants of the Illyrians. In the years that followed, Garasanin increasingly fell into line with other Serbian researchers who denied any such descent. This shift became still more evident in connection with the problem of the ethnic allegiance of the Dardanians, who inhabited the Kosova region. This problem became one of the most disputed in archaeology and history, assuming apolitical character after 1981. The Serbs vigorously attacked the idea that the Dardanians were ethnically Illyrian. Not because they were led to this conclusion by scientific evidence, but purely because Kosova was "the cradle of Serbian history" and "holy soil" for the Serbs, and as such could not have been inhabited by a people that were of Illyrian stock and hence claimed by their descendants, the Albanians.

This opposition increased especially after the great Albanian revolt in Kosova in 1981. It was therefore a consequence of a political event rather than of new scientific data.

Some history lesson: Kosovo once was an autonomous province in YU, within (the Federal Republic of) Serbia within YU. Milosevic removed autonomy, them Kosovo was part of (the Federal Repubulic) of Serbian within YU.

If Kosovo was ever a part of the (new) State of Serbia is disputed. Maybe that's what he meant?

A land deed sits in a file cabinet somewhere in Belgrade that was signed by the League of Nations.

It says otherwise.

The dude in this article wasn't even born at that time.

Albanians and Greeks are the oldest inhabitantss in the Balkans. We both have over 4000 years history in Balkans..serbs, turks are newcomers

If Kosovo was ever a part of the (new) State of Serbia is disputed. Maybe that's what he meant?
(Questioner, 19 April 2016 14:25)

No because Kosovo was a part of Serbia as early as 1912 and the Republic of Serbia is the legal heir and inheritor of Yugoslavia.

Thats it Zoran, keep flattering yourself. Do you mean you will do to Albabnians what Croats did you you in Krajina? Where are those izbeglicas now?
(Nikolle, 19 April 2016 15:51)
--
Haha, you always take the bait Nikolle. I don't think Serbs will do to Albanians what Croats did to Serbs. It is not in our nature. Maybe we can catch up for a rakija in Kosovska Mitrovica some time? But I suppose that is a long way to travel from the US? :)

1. «презренный» (prezreni) is the Russian for “the despised”.
I'm glad, because we despise you even more than you despise us. You lot are the dictionary definition of a primitive, cattle-like attitude that needs a strongman at the top, small mindedness and religious fanaticism. You will never be a great power because you don't operate on principle but on petty interest.

2. Please explain why would a man like Putin keep his money where his enemies control everything?
You poor things, Putin has put you in a world where you feel surrounded by enemies. It's a classical mind control strategy, and a populace with a cattle-like attitude is prone to be manipulated like that. Have you seen the movie Underground of Kusturica? You are in the basement, heroically toiling for the fatherland in a war made up by your leader, who reaps the fruit of your labor.

Can you explain, how does exactly his best friend, a violoncellist, is able to have 2 billion in an offshore account? Are you really that indoctrinated?


3. "So don’t worry about poverty in Russia but worry about the poor Shqips around you."
Alright, you do the same then. I have said it before on this board: Stop talking about Albanians, and Albanians will stop coming here to correct you. That's all.

Keeping up the fire is important. Or I would say: "important".

I would like to say something probably most of you do not know.
It is important because to a large degree this kind of statements are being fueled by the hope of mighty USA backing Kosovo.

There no more dishonest country on the planet than USA. The longer you live in that country, the more you realize: they (Americans) expect YOU to be honest. However, they are habitual liars.

Just an example. It is a long-standing tradition in America that perjury is NOT being actively punished and in no case someone is liable for the damages he caused by a perjury. Check it out, it is a shocking truth.

Try that (perjury) in Germany, Mongolia, Cameroon, any other first, second or third-world country...

With such mentality and habitual liars being raised in America on a daily basis... do you (Serbs, Albanians, Russians, Croats, Greeks here) expect any honesty from American politics? You are naive.

The best policy towards America is take whatever you can, never trust a single word - and run. It sounds very cynical, sorry about that - but unless they change their law, their education and their habits - they are the worst third-world country, worth of nothing, except as above: take any benefit and run.

As in the old (American) joke:

- papa (so the baby shark) - I ate a lawyer and a politician today!
- good job, my son, but how do you know?
- Lawyer had no skin of face, the politician had no backbone

What a stupid idiot.

Therret Prizreni : “ stupid to find out that your fearless leader is nothing but a petty thief, stashing his billions in Panama, while poverty and hunger keeps growing in Russia? … but Albanians have been here from the beginning of time and will be here till the end of time. You can bark from over there in Russia ”

1/ «презренный» (prezreni) is the Russian for “the despised”.
2/ In Panama Papers Russia is lest mentioned to say nothing of Putin.
3/ Please explain why would a man like Putin keep his money where his enemies control everything?
4/ Where is that state where Putin could waste USD 1 Bln.?
5/ Don’t worry about those whom you openly hate. Russians do not calculate everything in money. In the old Soviet song there are good words ( жила бы страна родная и нету других забот) that explain our mentality best. …. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzSOXKwnvh0 So don’t worry about poverty in Russia but worry about the poor Shqips around you.
6/ How do you know that Shqips lived there always? Please give me a single artefact or an ancient document or any other evidence! If not kindly shut up.

Kosovo never belonged to X, therefore it should not belong to X. That's a dangerous argument. Kosovo never belonged to the U.N., Kosovo never belonged to ... (you name it).

Kosovo is much better off under Serbia.
This will become a third world country if it continues like this.
The EU is smart. They do not want Muslim countries in the European Union.
All you need to do is see the circle of people who make these decisions.
They talk unity, think money and act in racism. No Muslim run country will ever be in the EU. EVER!!!!!!! They cannot afford it, and will not allow the threat to be posed. Serbia can have no ties to Kosovo going into the EU. Vucic knowing this will plan his recognition, not before making a mini Serbia in Kosovo to which money and power will later control the Serbian interest through corrupt Albanians. This guy is a thinker. He will exert influence through certain channels once in the EU. Forget about these media reports of independence. The Albanian people are going to get taken for a really long ride here. From London most of us cannot even believe how stupid these people are not to realize their so called liberation is a economic death sentence. John McCain goes no where and was in Serbia recently. He also sits on the senate sub committee for defense appropriations. Nato and EU are on the cards for Serbia. Vucic is doing what Tito done, playing both sides on paper. Reality is, USA will own Serbia and Serbia will own Kosovo, All indirectly of course. CIA's biggest station network and intelligence front is Belgrade. Russia as an ally is gone, all Serbia's money and aid now is from USA and EU.

Rote:
It's been called a gas station in the middle of nowhere, but mental disease is a more appropriate name for Russia.

Don't you all feel stupid to find out that your fearless leader is nothing but a petty thief, stashing his billions in Panama, while poverty and hunger keeps growing in Russia?
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3746841-155/poverty-in-russia-rising-at-fastest

Somehow I fail to imagine that 20 million Russians who can't put food on the table for their starving children, worry about to whom does Kosova belong.

How about this: Kosova belongs to it's people. It belongs to the people that live and breathe here everyday, and to no one else. Who's people is 95% Albanian. Invaders have come and gone, Serbs, Turks, even Romans, but Albanians have been here from the beginning of time and will be here till the end of time. You can bark from over there in Russia, it's of no consequence to us.
How about this other one: The average age among Albanians in Kosova is 26, while the average age of Serbians is 65. What conversation are we going to have in 10 years time? A conversation with the cemetery.

And if you're itching for another beating, here's another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2Pv_-XHmD0

Serbs can lie and go mad as much as they want. Case closed.
(Avni, 19 April 2016 22:40)
If the case is closed why are you wasting your time making such statements on B92? It closed and no case to answer so there should be no further comment on your part or is it more of a case that you are trying to convince yourself rather than the Serbs?

\

(icj1, 19 April 2016 20:38)
In between your ears must be a fascinating place where witty statements are extremely witty and funny, but out here in the world its sounds like garbled nonsense. You have to stop listening to those voices that are telling you lies about ability to outplay you opponents.
Now back to the foetal position and rock backwards and forwards and start babbling about PS CE= Chief Economist, sj commands/orders and so non LOL.

(Therret Prizreni, 20 April 2016 06:10)

You want to see poverty then go to Kosova http://www.unicef.org/kosovoprogramme/Child_Poverty_ENG(2).pdf or Albania http://www.wvi.org/albania/article/poverty-albania-imagine-world-which-olsi-6-was-born%E2%80%A6
I have been to both. If that is not convincing for you the US has 60 million people on food stamps and out of a population of 320 million 100 million are affected by the GFC of 2008. Parts of the US look like Nigeria. They have 23% unemployment. Detroit alone looks like a ghost town.
What is the point of having a young population when they have no hope or future? Muslims think that numbers matter; no its not quantity but quality.

@factman
Nobody said that the Serbs are "visitors". But neither are Albanians visitors. Whether you accept or not the Illyrian lineage of Albanians, there's no credible historian that can deny that Albanians have been in the Balkans prior to roman conquest. In fact, had this argument not been politicized, would have been simply a matter of academic discussion.

But it was the Serbian argument, that Albanians were brought in the Balkans by the Turks in the 16th century, therefore must be exterminated, that has brought to the genocidal policies of Serbian state against the Albanians, not the other way around.

To (sj, 19 April 2016 13:31), they have the independence from Serbia, for them that is the most important thing. They can not eat independence neither independence pays their rents. Same as in Serbia, those politicians on the top they have money but ordinary people hardly surviving.

Continuing from my previous rant.

There are three pillars of society where America is way behind most countries.

1) The education system
2) The legal system
3) The healthcare

They need to fix all of them - and not by some Obama-patchwork, but for real.
I do not see any chance for that in the future. So they will go down at one point and take a good part of the world with them.

I do not think it will happen in our lifetime, but for sure in the lifetime of our kids.
Unless someone can fix these three problems. The current establishment won't.

That why nonserbs are here in B92 because like here now for PM Mustafa Serbs calling him every kind names idiot vampire mustafack... O Serbians numpty tubes here we are debating find facts and tell us your reasons simply as that

All of the Balkan people have mixed roots; from the ancient inhabitants to various peoples/armies that came through and mixed with the locals (all one needs to see is the recent genetic testing done in the region). But the facts are simple; the word "Albanian" was first ever used or mentioned in the 12th century in the Balkan region (just Google "origins of the Albanians"). That is long after the Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks had their own states as one can see from this map of Europe in 814; http://www.emersonkent.com/images/maps/europe_814.jpg
funny how there is not a trace of "Albanians or Bosnians" anywhere to be found. The question I have for the Albanians (which I have been asking them in person and on these sort of forums for over 10 years and still I can not get an answer to) is; Can you show me 1 Albanian source from prior to the 18th century that claims you are "descendants" of the Illyrians?

Putin and Dacic have their money in off the shore companies. These are tiny shell companies founded by dictators to hide their millions and avoid paying taxes in their countries. Putin is smart because he uses his close friends names and give them money. Asad and Ahmedinejad are also in the same list of people who won these tiny shell companies.

There are so many Illyrian artefacts in Kosova and Albania. Premier Mustafa's office has a painting featuring two small dardan statues who were found in Kosova. Great linguist and archeologist Stipcevic is Albanian and he wrote that the word Kosovo derives from the word "Kos" yogurt in Albanian. At the beginning of his career he thought that Croats were Illyrians but then he changed his mind and said that Albanians were the real Illyrians. So he wrote many articles and published them in many foreign magazines even in China.

@Bishop
"Can you show me 1 Albanian source from prior to the 18th century that claims you are "descendants" of the Illyrians?"

How is that of any consequence? I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. Why does 1 Albanian source prior to the 18th century, have any more weight scientifically than thousands of studies, books, research, archaeological excavations from Albanian and non-Albanian scholars, at any given time. Why is the 18th century such a marker?

But, I'll give you sources:
- Marin Barleti, in both his books, "The Siege of Shkodra" (1504) and "History of Scanderbeg"(1508) mentions the illyrian lineage of Albanians.
- Frang Bardhi does the same in biography of George Skanderbeg in 1636.
- Both he, Pjeter Budi and Pjeter Bogdani, were educated at the "Illyrian College of Loretto". The latter one, from Prizren, was Archbishop of Skopje, and one of the leading local figures in Kosova in the Great Austrian-Turkish War of 1683-1699. He recruited a force of 6000 Albanian solders in Kosova under the Austrian army, and after Prishtina, went with them to capture Prizren. There he caught the plague and returned to Prishtina, where he died.

Continuing from my previous rant.

There are three pillars of society where America is way behind most countries.

-The education system
-The legal system
-The healthcare

They need to fix all of them - and not by some Obama-patchwork, but for real.
I do not see any chance for that in the future. So they will go down at one point and take a good part of the world with them.

I do not think it will happen in our lifetime, but for sure in the lifetime of our kids.
Unless someone can fix these three problems. The current establishment won't.

Joni, so what our dear friend "the actual truth" is saying, is that it is your job (Joni's) to find the evidence supporting the arguments of "the actual truth".
(icj1, 19 April 2016 20:38)

Yes.

He/She questioned self-evident facts and asked for proof. I simply recommended finding out for his/herself. Seeing as how he/she's on the Internet all the time, it shouldn't be too hard. It's one thing to be ignorant. Don't be lazy in addition.

I'm curious about Albanian claims to Kosovo that stretch back millions of years. Those cultures and peoples who possessed these lands left their mark. The Greeks built temples and theatres. The Romans amphitheatres, arenas, and villas. The Serbs medieval monasteries and churches. The Turks bridges and mosques. But what have the so-called 'oldest inhabitants' left for cultural posterity? Petrol stations perhaps?

For the sake of argument, let us entertain the un-proven notion that Albanians are Illyrian.

Serbs have been in the Balkans since the 7th Century (1,300 years or maybe 40 lifetimes)

Is someone actually going to build an argument and say they are: "visitors"?

Ridiculous.

Funny , I didn't realize that Islam allows its followers to booze themselves into a drunken stupor and out of their minds.

Did I miss something in my Islam education?

@Bishop

This is how Scanderbeg refers to his race in a letter to the Prince of Taranto, in 1461:
"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom addressed us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely be held by the Romans. This Pirro, who held Taranto and many other places of Italy with his armies.

I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania was part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things has not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"

Yet another example of lying to further a jihadi cause. Who did kosovo "declare" independence from if it was "never part of serbia"??

There are three pillars of society where America is way behind most countries.

1) The education system
2) The legal system
3) The healthcare

They need to fix all of them - and not by some Obama-patchwork, but for real.
I do not see any chance for that in the future. So they will go down at one point and take a good part of the world with them.

I do not think it will happen in our lifetime, but for sure in the lifetime of our kids.
Unless someone can fix these three problems. The current establishment won't.
(Ataman, 19 April 2016 19:39)


If it is Socialism/Communism/Marxism you are looking for, you won't find it in the U.S. For that you should have remained in Hungary, where you were thought of as an undesirable.

Further to my post below:

There are also land deeds for Serb monasteries in Kosovo which were granted by successive generations of the Nemanja Dynasty (beginning with the Great Stefan Nemanja) who granted them to the SOC (hence the name "Metojia which means "church Lands").

Some of the lands which were granted by the Nemanja's were later confiscated by Communist Authorities led by the bloodsucker Josip Broz Tito (who, by the way, should be shipped back to Croatia from where he came).

Those lands should be returned to their rightful owner by initiating court cases proving chain of title.

##

Prior Post:

A land deed sits in a file cabinet somewhere in Belgrade that was signed by the League of Nations.

It says otherwise.

The dude in this article wasn't even born at that time.

@prizreni
Can you show me 1 Albanian source from prior to the 18th century that claims you are "descendants" of the Illyrians?

Prizren, there are a lot of historian who doubt Albanian origin. Ellyrians were mentioned last time in 3rd century and Albanians for the 1st time in 11th century. There is no evidence that links this huge gap of 800 years. Kaplan Resuli Burovic, albanologist, has a different theory who are Albanians. Many other historians claim different from Albanian national ideology that was started by Austria-Hungary empire in order to make Serbs have enemy. This painting of Paja Jovanovic what does it proove? That Paja Jovanovic was painting Albanains in Kosovo battle, that he tought that Albanians fought there? He never said that. Maybe he was possed by some ghost so he painted that without even knowing. When he woke up he saw, but it was too late. :)

@prizreni
the "importance" of having NO mention of ANY Albanian source from prior to the 19th century shows ZERO continuity for a culture. Albanians invented this myth only after they saw the Croat/Serb Illyrian Movement; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement
If anything there was never a mention of the Albanian-Illyrian myth before the Austrians invented it (just like they invented the country of Albania) to undermine Serbia;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism#Myths_of_autochthony_and_primacy
Prior to Johann Georg von Hahn, there were no lies about Pelasgians, Illyrians and Albanians...
Bogdani, Skenderbeg, Kastrioit and even Barleti were all of Serb heritage...nowhere is anything mentioned about "albanians being illyrian" in "the siege of shkodra" and if anything historians know what type of typical liar come from this region;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Siege_of_Shkodra_(book)#Criticism_and_Defense

Show us any specific books and pages from this time where it states; "the 19th century Albanians are descendants of the ancient illyrians", do it...YOU WILL NEVER FIND ONE!

@ prizreni
ahhh yes the Austrians invented the myth and the Albanians jumped on the bandwagon right away...ahhh is this all you have in your rebuttal? weak...simply ignoring my questions? show us the specific books and pages on which these old "albanian historians" (from before the 19th century) made the claim that the "ancient illyrians were albanians"...they do NOT exist...

@prizren
take a good look at Europe in 814http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/europe_charlemagne_814.htm
take a good look at where todays Azerbaijan is for your background...enough said...

while you were in asia this is what was going on in kosovo; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi#Exonym_of_Serbs

@bishop: " well Skenderbeg’s father and brother did as they were buried in the Serbian monastery of Hilandar!"

Not really. The monasteries at the time were both Serbian and Albanian. Gjon Kastrioti, donated a large sum of money and purchased adelphates and property in the monastery. In his honor St George tower was known as the Albanian Tower (Arbanaški pirg). That fact alone tells that they were not Serbian, but Albanian. Gjon's son Reposhi, after being taken as a hostage with his other brothers to Sultan's court and seeing his first two brothers poisoned, decided to become a monk and spend his life at the monastery, where he died.

To the contrary, your Highness, Count of Kosova.
The most communist country which claims to be 'Western' is precisely the United States of America.

Of course, I know, this sounds shocking. But just for starters: a broken justice system, a corrupt healthcare system and a dysfunctional education system is not something typical for a capitalist country. I live in a VERY capitalist country and have only minor complains, even less, than my neighbors.

A small example of communism. In the U.S. the food price is two-tiered: the low tire is for poor. You do not want to eat that crap, but it is twice cheaper than what your money buys in Kosova. Than is the food for the rest of us. It is 3 times to 10 times more than in Kosova. We 'support' the poor Americans the communist way: paying unreasonable price for healthy food because we are expected to afford it.

This is just a little example. As I did mention before a justice system which does not intent to serve justice or an education system which creates dumb and dumbest - all this is well-known.

Back to the topic: you should trust in Kosova these dishonest imbeciles as you should trust a dishonest imbecile.

Your Highness, Count - continuing from my previous rant with more details.
As I said, the poor, lopsided education system and a wasteful, inefficient healthcare is not something typical for a capitalist country. If I add "kangaroo court system" you will think of North Korea. Unfortunately, not just that. United States has the most ridiculous kangaroo court system.

Example.

I will claim (in Kosovo, Hungary, Russia, Germany, Serbia) in the local civil court (they call it 'Superior Court' in California - but there is nothing superior there) that you stole my Mercedes and you ow me $40000 in damages.
I will produce two-three witnesses who under oath will claim, they did see you stealing my Mercedes. I will create fake DMV paperwork proving that I had a Mercedes.

So the judge will make you lose and me win. Than you will find out the truth and will prove beyond any doubt that the judgement was a result of perjury and forgery.

Unless you can prove that this was an 'abuse of process' (that is, my goal was far more than just scam you out of $40000) than you are out of luck, even if your paperwork is 100%. The American justice system does not know about civil liability of perjury or forgery and everything they even f@rt is about 'res judicata'.

All is done to 'reduce the work of courts and litigation'. Wrong completely. You do not believe? Neither did I. But that's the truth. USA = the land of habitual liars.

@Factman

No, of course that is nonsense. But the reason why Albanians say "Go back to your Russian steppes" is only because the Serbs say "Albanians came in the Balkans with Turkish Hordes".

So, this mutual stupidity. This is te reason why the Balkan is the poorest region in Europe.
We spend much more energy on obstructing our neighbour`s path, than paving our own.

Prizren stands for Roman city named Prisdriana,as Pec stands for Pescium,Lipjan for Ulpiana.Novobordo.These names were Slavized when occupied Kosovo,first Bulgarians,after Serbs with Nemanja.

Free, Thanks for the comment. I agree.

Prizreni: Next time you encounter an ignorant Serb like that tell them to look at their most famous painting and ask them what they see at the bottom left of the painting?
http://www.varvar.ru/en/serbian-art/predic/images/uros-predic-1-kosovka_devojka.jpg

While I agree with the spirit and tone of your reply, and am sorry to say that there are many Serbs like the ones you describe, I'd ask you to go a few steps further and ask yourself:

What created the Serbia of the 90's? Did they just wake up one day and set out on a "murderous land grab" as we are led to believe?

C'mon. Those are fairy tales for kids.

It's convenient to have a "bad guy"

Here are some articles from the 80's before Milosevic even came to power.

http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/benworks/1980news.html

Prizreni,

You wrote: Serbs found us here. You are the newcomers, we are the original inhabitants.

My ancestors came to America in 1893.

Am I less American than the Irish guy down the road from me who says his ancestors came in 1841?

Is it even a good question? What is the intention of even discussing this? To show some antecedent claim to land? Some superiority?

What if I answered, OK, yes, you came before, but I can piss farther than you can?

My house sits on land that likely belonged to Native American Indians living nearby. What? This is not my house? Not my land? I have a legal title and legal deed in my hand that says it is.

@RighteousBilly: "Prizren, there are a lot of historian who doubt Albanian origin. Ellyrians were mentioned last time in 3rd century and Albanians for the 1st time in 11th century. There is no evidence that links this huge gap of 800 years. Kaplan Resuli Burovic, albanologist, has a different theory who are Albanians."

There's also a reference from Stephanus of Byzantium in the 6th century AD. But these are dark ages, where there's not much documentation anyway, where Byzantium Empire lost control over and again of these territories, that were ruled for 3 centuries by the Bulgarian empire, and wave after wave of migrations: after Goths came the Gepids, followed by the Huns, followed by the Avars, followed by the Slavs, Bulgars, Magyars and Cumans and Pechenegs and Mongols, etc. etc. There's not much references of what happened to other ethnic groups as well. So the gap is not just with Albanians, but with every other Balkan people. There's also disputes of the origins of the Romanians.

As for Kaplan Resuli, he is an Albanologist, as much as I am astronaut. Not only he doesn't have any education, or worked in area remotely related to Albanology, all he did is write a few articles with outlandish claims but no scientific substance.

@bishop: "Albanians invented this myth only after they saw the Croat/Serb Illyrian Movement; [link]
If anything there was never a mention of the Albanian-Illyrian myth before the Austrians invented it (just like they invented the country of Albania) to undermine Serbia;"

Bishop, in one sentence you say that Albanians invented the myth, in the next you say that Austrians invented it. You're confused. Maybe next, you'll say that evolution isn't true, because nobody spoke about it before Charles Darwin in the 19th century.

And if Bogdani, Skenderbeg and Barleti were Serbs, why didn't they say so, but said instead that they are Albanians?

@bishop
I showed you a reference, scroll below and you'll see the letter that Scanderbeg sent to the Prince of Taranto, reminding him how his ancestors protected Taranto from Rome 2000 years prior. You choose to ignore it. The letter was written in 10 October 1460, and is stored in the State Archives of Milano.
[http://tinyurl.com/scand1] [http://tinyurl.com/Scand2]
Marin Barleti, titles his main book as "Historia de Vita et Gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarvm Pricipis"; [http://tinyurl.com/barleti]
He uses Albanian and Epirotan interchangeably through the book. Epirus Nova or Illyris proper was the province of the Roman Empire established by Dioclecian, corresponding more or less to the current country of Albania. [http://tinyurl.com/EpirusNova]
Austrians didn't invent anything because it was a common knowledge throughout the ages that Albanians, and Illyrians were the same people. For example "Illyrici Sacri" of Daniele Farlato, published in 1751, makes the case abundantly clear [http://tinyurl.com/illyricum-sacrum]
Or this [http://tinyurl.com/whincop], by Thomas Whincop, 1747.
I can be here all day giving you references, but you have to do your own research, if you really want to learn. But I will end up with these:
http://tinyurl.com/zungnlq
http://tinyurl.com/j5akagd
http://tinyurl.com/zyaxxr5
http://tinyurl.com/zzs4oyx

@prizreni
hahaha you post a number of pictures that say "illyria" in it and links to two books which neither have a SINGLE word saying "the ancient illyrians are albanians"! this is your "proof"? hahahaha just see my posts below again and let me know when you invent a new "source". funny how you just ignore my comment about skenderbegs father and brother being buried in a serbian church! these serbs were the ancestors he was referring to in your letter! haha... too easy

@bishop: "hahaha you post a number of pictures that say "illyria" in it and links to two books which neither have a SINGLE word saying "the ancient illyrians are albanians"! this is your "proof"? "

You asked me to show you 1 Albanian source prior 18th cent. that claims that Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians. I gave you evidence that Scanderbeg made that claim in the 15th century.
Than you claimed that there was an "Albanian-Illyrian myth" that was invented by the Austrians in the 19th century, "to undermine Serbia" of all things. I showed you evidence that even before the 19th century in European literature Albanians were routinely considered as descendants of Illyrians.

I never said that this was "the proof". You have to still answer my question from previous post:
"How is that of any consequence? I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. Why does 1 Albanian source prior to the 18th century, have any more weight scientifically than thousands of studies, books, research, archaeological excavations from Albanian and non-Albanian scholars, at any given time. Why is the 18th century such a marker?"

@bishop: "you prove my point! the Kastrioti family was SERBIAN! that is why they gave money for the serbian church!"

According to the Russian pilgrim Isaiah, the monasteries in the area were both Albanian and Serb. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilandar
So, the tower is known in their honor as the Albanian Tower and that proves that they were Serbian? You make absolutely no sense!

"also there are no albanian toponyms in Kosovo;"

Today's Lipjan comes from ancient Ulpiana. Skopje comes from Scupi. Nish comes from Naissus. You are proven wrong again.


"Most of what is known about the Illyrian language comes from Greek and Roman sources which mostly relate to personal and oronime names."
And some of those relate to modern Albanian: Bardylis-Bardh Ylli (white star); sika-thika(knife), aspetos-shpejtë(fast),bilia-bijë,bilë(daughter),aran-arë(field),delme-dele(sheep),ulkin-ulk,ujk(wolf) etc, etc.

@bishop
"the illyrian myth is at the core of albanian myth since invented in the 19th century, this is what justifies their theft of land (deeds)"

First of all, the Albanian claim on Kosova is not based on whether the Albanians descend from Illyrians or not. It is based first and foremost, on the fact that Albanians make 95% of the population on Kosova, that they have the universal right to statehood, that they have rejected the Serb rule imposed on them in 1912 through bloodshed, genocide and state terror, and the subsequent persecution that they have suffered collectively.

Serbia invaded Kosova and held it by right of conquest, until a bigger power beat up Serbia and forced it to give it up. The Kumanovo agreement effectively cancelled Serbia's right of conquest of 1912. This bigger power (NATO) recognized Kosova's right to self-determination, therefore the Kosova's declaration of Independence. End of story. None of this has anything to do with Illyrians, or non Illyrians.

Get it through your heads, there is no deed for a country, such a thing does not exist. It might serve as a poetic expression in a nationalist rally, but in reality a deed for a country is an oxymoron.

icj1,the actual truth is making available the source of the facts Joni is seeking. Joni's desperate for the truth from the actual truth and thus the actual truth has given him what he seeks and is not asking for anything in return. He certainly isn't asking for Joni's fanciful version of historical revisionism because he's well aware of what hyperbole will confront him. Incidentally our arrogant,agent provocateur,friend Mustafa will get his trousers wet if he keeps urinating against the prevailing wind and that's the truth!!

>>>There are no DIRECTproofs about the fact that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians.

This time I wasn't talking about that. I was just saying that if Albanians trust American "real politics" - that's a mistake and the reason is simply that the people who are in American establishment cannot be different than their being. And their being is to serve their interests no matter the truth or even America's own interests.

And in addition to that most are after legal education - and American legal system is completely broken.

The picture does resemble the Soviet Union.

And I also wrote about my non-existing Mercedes, which - I can claim in America - Count of Kosova did steal. I can pay Rote a bribe an he will tell that in the court as a fake witness. Than, Count of Kosova is out of luck because he can't sue both of us back for forgery and perjury (in America).

In Kosovo (or in Russia or in Hungary or in Germany) for such thing I am not only going to pay Count of Kosova all the $40000 back, I will pay for all his damages and get a good 2-3 years in jail.

By allowing such dishonesty and such abuses of the justice, American court system de-facto encourages lying under oath, lawyers being dishonest and guess, what is the background of most politicians? Lawyer, of course.

This is why many Americans do not understand, how come some politicians with lawyer education like Mandela, Gandhi, etc. have backbone. The answer is: they are not American lawyers.

"And I also wrote about my non-existing Mercedes, which - I can claim in America - Count of Kosova did steal. I can pay Rote a bribe an he will tell that in the court as a fake witness. Than, Count of Kosova is out of luck because he can't sue both of us back for forgery and perjury (in America"

SJ stay with what you know. In the description above you would be charged with felonies, to include forgery and theft. Your friend would also be charged as an accomplice. Your worrying about perjury is mute as perjury is a midemeanor. Most of your negative US comments are also based on false analogies and misconceptions.

@prizreni
Still waiting for the specific books and pages (from prior to the 19th century) by those "famous" albanian historians that made the claims (back then) that the albanians are descendants of the illyrians....

you ask why didn't skenderbeg say he was a serb? well Skenderbeg’s father and brother did as they were buried in the Serbian monastery of Hilandar! Also take a look at the Skenderbeg coat of arms - it is from the imperial SERB house!

@prizren
you prove my point! the Kastrioti family was SERBIAN! that is why they gave money for the serbian church! the theft just never ends for Albanians; Kosovo, Serb churches (which are at the same time Albanian for you and which you also destroy, over 150 since 99'), now milios obilic is albanian, alexander the great, plato, aristotle etc unreal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism#Myths_of_autochthony_and_primacy

also there are no albanian toponyms in Kosovo; http://www.kosovo.net/history/kosovo_origins/ko_chapter13.html

on the illyrian claim;
Most of what is known about the Illyrian language comes from Greek and Roman sources which mostly relate to personal and oronime names. Yet even this is insufficient to provide a firm basis for an uninterrupted link between the Illyrians and contemporary Albanians.

@icj
go and solve the isreali and palestinian problem first and then poke your nose in the balkans...the illyrian myth is at the core of albanian myth since invented in the 19th century, this is what justifies their theft of land (deeds) and history as i just outlined in my previous post...

@prizren
-the theft in kosovo was done through the ONLY genocide that ever happened there and that was the long term genocide of the serbs who were the VAST majority for over 1,000 years before the late 1800s when the albanians ethnically cleansed 500,000 serbs from kosovo (just look at teh domographic history of the place!);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo

-because of the above the illyrian myth becomes a major factor for albo nationalism as they were hardly ever IN kosovo...a lie needed to invented to justify attempt to steal the land (when nato leaves it will open a whole new chapter in the serb-albo relations)

-your "letters" or "books" have proven NOTHING at all...there is not a single word in any of them by "albanian historians" from the 19th century that claimed the ancient illyrians were albos....

Most of what is known about the Illyrian language comes from Greek and Roman sources which mostly relate to personal and oronime names. Yet even this is insufficient to provide a firm basis for an uninterrupted link between the Illyrians and contemporary Albanians.
This unique and indisputable fact that there are no Albanian toponyms in Kosovo and Metohia evidently does not fit in with the numerous demands, statements and wishes of the secessionist parties and chauvinistic Shiptars and Albanians because they have always constantly avoided this theme.

http://www.kosovo.net/history/kosovo_origins/ko_chapter13.html

@prizren
-i showed you the map below from 814...not only kosovo but all of Albania was serbia...it was serbian before and after the turks were kicked back to Asia, so there was no "invasion" but a liberation
-again show or post a specific document or book and say "on such and such page in this book" do the Albanian historians in the 15th 16th 17th or 18th century claim illyrians are albanian...you claim to have shown this proof but you have not and it does not exist

@icj
go and solve the isreali and palestinian problem first and then poke your nose in the balkans...the illyrian myth is at the core of albanian myth since invented in the 19th century, this is what justifies their theft of land (deeds) and history as i just outlined in my previous post...
(bishop, 24 April 2016 16:55)

Not sure what the illyrian myth is; I said nothing about "illyrian". Is that something you came up with?

If somebody stole your parcel of land and/or got a deed on your parcel of land by fraud, feel free to notify the police and/or sue them in court. Bloggers here are not going to be able to help you on that so it's a pointless discussion.

Just a piece of advice when you go to court; you are likely to loose if your only "evidence" is the one you are presenting here about who lived on your parcel of land 1500 years ago lol

@icj
I agree and according to the majority of the world and the UN Kosovo is still part of Serbia (just like it was in 814, 1389 and after it was liberated from the genocidal Turks in the early 1900s)...

just for the record; the "Illyrian" myth is not something that I invented but rather this theory was developed by the Austrian linguist Johann Georg von Hahn in his work Albanesiche Studien in 1854 (it was something the Albaniacs quickly gravitated to as in their "minds" it gave them a historic "right" to Kosovo as they could not justify stealing another nations land in any other way);

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism#Myths_of_autochthony_and_primacy

@factman:
The difference between an invader and a liberator is the support of the people. So, no Serbia didn't liberate Kosova in 1912, but invaded it.

Surprised that you link to Magna Carta as your "deed" over Kosova. Might as well have pointed me a driver's manual, that's how much relevance it has in the case. So clearly you have no "deed"!


"This frozen conflict can only become unfrozen through dialogue & compromise"

And it doesn't seem like Serbia is willing to compromise in recognizing Kosova, so I guess we'll have to wait for the conflict to disappear when the Serbs of Kosova die of old age.

The difference between an invader and a liberator is the support of the people. So, no Serbia didn't liberate Kosova in 1912, but invaded it.

** Interesting. To those once forcibly evicted by an agressor, it was indeed liberation. And by the way, Europe applauded.



Surprised that you link to Magna Carta as your "deed" over Kosova. Might as well have pointed me a driver's manual, that's how much relevance it has in the case. So clearly you have no "deed"!

** The link was to remind you that "Property Rights" began with the Magna Carta 800 years ago (since you developed some concept to nullify them). Civilized Europe honors chain of title & legal deed. Uncontestable. Period. There are many such commercial deeds.



"This frozen conflict can only become unfrozen through dialogue & compromise"

And it doesn't seem like Serbia is willing to compromise in recognizing Kosova, so I guess we'll have to wait for the conflict to disappear when the Serbs of Kosova die of old age

** Funny. I enjoyed your posts & I thought you interesting, but to you "compromise" means the other guy must "recognize." If so, what will you compromise? Do you really think they will ever recognize? Not likely.

** Serbs did not die out in 500 years of Ottoman bloodsuckers. Why would they die out now? As Serbia continues its economic ascent at the center of CEFTA, it's pretty predictable that they will ensure that K Serbs thrive.

What Mustafa meant was that since the Albanians have been at least for centuries (i emphasize: at least) the majority in Kosovo, and since the guys who decided the international borders in Berlin, Paris, London etc never cared about the wish of the people of Kosovo, that means that Kosovo was never part of Serbia by its people wish but was forced.

Anyway that doesn`t mean that Mustafa isn`t a piece of sh... just like Nikolic, Ivanov etc.

The politicians in the Balkan use nationalist rhetoric for smoke and mirrors. The only way fpr the people in the Balkan to have a decent life and a decent future is to learn to coexist and to understand that we are all mutually dependent. We like it or not we`re on the same boat. We will sail together or we all sink together.

@factman
"Is it even a good question? What is the intention of even discussing this? To show some antecedent claim to land? Some superiority?"

Well, this is a very politicized issue, and yes for someone that grew in America, it's pointless. In any normal environment this should have only been debated by historians, linguists etc. But in Yugoslavia, it became part of the toxic mix, and stood right next to the argument that the state should deport all the Albanians from Yugoslavia. That's why it hits home to a lot of people. In a normal democratic country, all citizens should have the right to decide what their future should be like, not just those that came before or after a certain date.

As for what caused the '90: There were many factors, and there was a continuum of history that led to the '90. What started the destruction of Yugoslavia was a single cockroach. But there is perhaps a discussion for another day.

@bishop & @Therret Prizreni

guys/gals, I'm not sure what is the point of your debate. For once, I agree with factman that regardless of whom of you is right and regardless of who came first in the Balkans, every property owner today has a legal title and legal deed in their hand that says their house is theirs (if there is any property conflicts, there are courts for that). Who lived in their parcel of land 1000 or 1500 years ago is totally irrelevant.

So, unless you're debating who came first in the the Balkans for academic purposes, you're probably wasting your time :)

Bishop, you set up a straw-man's argument, and even that argument you lost. You conveniently choose to ignore my question.


@bishop: "Illyrian" myth is not something that I invented but rather this theory was developed by the Austrian linguist Johann Georg von Hahn in his work Albanesiche Studien in 1854 (it was something the Albaniacs quickly gravitated to as in their "minds" it gave them a historic "right" to Kosovo as they could not justify stealing another nations land in any other way"

Ok, explain to me this one: Illyrians inhabited the entire western Balkans. Why did Albanians used this "Illyrian myth", to claim just Kosova and not Dubrovnik for example or Dalmatia or any other territories previously inhabited by Illyrians? If they could not justify stealing Kosova in any other way, why not use the same way/myth to steal a few more prosperous lands? Why not steal those more prosperous lands to begin with? If I was to steal a bank, I would not go for the pennies, I would go for the gold bars. Can you explain that to me?


@bishop: "i showed you the map below from 814" ... and I can show you a map from 2016, which obviously has more relevance that 814. And in my map, Kosova is independent.

@bishop, this is how Serbia's "liberation" of Kosova looked like in 1912:

"Houses and whole villages reduced to ashes, unarmed and innocent populations massacred en masse, incredible acts of violence, pillage and brutality of every kind — such were the means which were employed and are still being employed by the Serbo-Montenegrin soldiery, with a view to the entire transformation of the ethnic character of regions inhabited exclusively by Albanians." — Report of the International Commission on the Balkan Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Albanians_in_the_Balkan_Wars


Or this, by Leo Trotsky:

"Burning was going on all around us. Entire Albanian villages had been turned into pillars of fire... In all its fiery monotony this picture was repeated the whole way to Skopje... For two days before my arrival in Skopje the inhabitants had woken up in the morning to the sight, under the principal bridge over the Vardar- that is, in the very centre of the town- of heaps of Albanian corpses with severed heads. Some said that these were local Albanians, killed by the cjetniks, others that the corpses were brought down to the bridge by the waters of the Vardar. What was clear was that these headless men had not been killed in battle."
http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1912_2.html

or this:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/26/kosovo.serbia

@prizren
All this went on and the population of Albanians just kept skyrocketing right? Give me a break! You quote a communist propagandist like Trotsky?

As if the Serbs did anything even close to what your Turk brothers did when they forced out and then killed millions of Armenians and Greeks when they formed modern turkey! I don't deny revenge acts took place after the Serbs freed themselves but you were Ottoman foot soldiers who oppressed them for 500 years.

1912 shows that the Serbs did NOT take revenge against the Albanians once liberating Kosovo. Albanians lived there even after occupying it the late 1800s by killing off and ethnically cleansing 400,000 Serbs;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo#19th_century
Albanians even sided with Hitler and killed 10,000 Serbs and forced out 100,000 in ww2 and still were ok to live in Serbia;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg

the wealthiest group of albanians in balkan history lived in serbia post ww2 (while their brothers were in bondage in Albania)! Your own parents emigrated from Yugoslavia and NOT Albania! this is why you have a computer and was born in the West...you are welcome...

@icj
I agree and according to the majority of the world and the UN Kosovo is still part of Serbia
(bishop, 25 April 2016 15:17)

Well, Kosovo declared independence and the whole world accepted it.

As far as UN is concerned, UN bodies decided that Kosovo should become independent of Serbia.
----------

(just like it was in 814, 1389 and after it was liberated from the genocidal Turks in the early 1900s)...
(bishop, 25 April 2016 15:17)

Ok, as it was part of the Byzantium and Roman Empires before then. So not sure what point you are trying to make!
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just for the record; the "Illyrian" myth is not something that I invented but rather this theory was developed by the Austrian linguist Johann Georg von Hahn in his work Albanesiche Studien in 1854 (it was something the Albaniacs quickly gravitated to as in their "minds" it gave them a historic "right" to Kosovo as they could not justify stealing another nations land in any other way);
(bishop, 25 April 2016 15:17)

Well, again, I did not refer to any illyrian stuff, so since you brought it up you must believe in it, not me :)

But, it appears you have a problem with some land that keeps you sleepless at night! What parcel of land are you referring to? Who was(were) the person(s) that stole it? Did you sue them in court and do you have a deed on that parcel of land to prove your claims, if any?

serbs who were the VAST majority for over 1,000 years before the late 1800s when the albanians ethnically cleansed 500,000 serbs from kosovo (just look at teh domographic history of the place!);
[link]
(bishop, 25 April 2016 02:43)

Did you actually look at the "domographic" history of the place in the link YOU provided?! In that link, the max number of Serbs ever living in Kosovo was 318000 in 1871. So, how can 500000 Serbs be ethnically cleansed from Kosovo if there were never 500000 Serbs in Kosovo to start with?!

You don't need to humiliate yourself like that, mate :)

@bishop: "what a weak attempt to try an continue a "debate" you were crushed in:
Yeah right, you couldn't scratch your own straw-man:
bishop: "show me 1 Albanian source prior 18th cent. that claims that Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians" - Scanderbeg in the 15th century. (gave you evidence too)
Then you switched to the Albanian historians from the 19th century, but you couldn't answer why the Albanian historians from the 19th century are more relevant that the Albanian historians from the 20th century.
Then you couldn't answer why the Albanians used this "Illyrian myth" to just steal Kosova when they could have stolen some more prosperous lands once inhabited by Illyrians.
Then you couldn't answer how did naming a tower as the "Albanian Tower" in honor Gjon Kastrioti, made him a Serb not Albanian.
I know that delusion is the most prominent Serbian trait and you're giving a pretty entertaining example of that. With a crush like this, who would need a tickle.
Is your name Milos by the way, because you sound just like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUaMzsNKR7Q

Prizreni,

You overstretch.

The Nemanja Dynasty controlled K as early as 1166. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Nemanja

That land & others of the Serb state were forcibly taken by Ottomans beginning 1389

500 years later the Serb state re-conquered those lands. K was not a state; nor self-governing; nor autonomous.

S was justified in re-conquering lands from an Empire who subjected citizens to extreme hardship (if not genocide); stole toddlers to create Jannisaries to serve the Sultan; and practiced Cultural Genocide (erasing pre-existing culture)

To the UN, the “bigger power” had no legal standing to do what it did, nor recognize. The world is not run by military alliances, but rather “Rule of Law” agreed upon & practiced by each nation-state and UN Security Council

S did not sign-away K at Kumanovo. If it did, explain the persistent effort to get S to recognize K (thereby legalizing the crime of the “bigger power”) by all manner of threat, coercion, deceit, manipulation, trickery, and diplomacy?

There most certainly is “legal deed” & “chain of title” for all real-estate in this world and it was first established in the Magna Carta. See: http://www.propertyrightsalliance.org/magna-carta-rule-law-property-rights-a3082

Property can only be taken away by suspending law (one definition of a pariah government)

This frozen conflict can only become unfrozen through dialogue & compromise

10 NATO’s cannot change that fact.

@bishop,
Oh so Trotcky is a communist propagandist when it doesn't suit you, not a Russian war correspondent following your troops. And the International Commission on the Balkan Wars? http://tinyurl.com/h4fc4pg

- New York Times? http://tinyurl.com/zsllydn
"Servian army left a trail of blood. Thousands of Men, Women and Children massacred in March To Sea. Executions a daily sport. Terrible Atrocities the Result of Deliberate Policy to Exterminate Moslems"

Those men, women and children and infants at the breast were the Ottoman foot solders that oppressed you for 500 years? The typical genocide apologist's excuse!

- Leo Freundlich? http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1913_1.html
"The thousand and thousands of men, women, children and old people who have been slain or tortured to death, the villages marauded and burnt to the ground, the women and young girls who have been raped, and the countryside plundered, ravaged and swimming in blood can give no answer to this question.
The Serbs came to Albania not as liberators but as exterminators of the Albanian people."

- Dimitrije Tucovic (The Serbian army captain)
"We have carried out the attempted premeditated murder of an entire nation. We were caught in that criminal act and have been obstructed."

@bishop
"I don't deny revenge acts took place after the Serbs freed themselves but you were Ottoman foot soldiers who oppressed them for 500 years."

- Lev Bronstein, Kievskaya Mysl: http://tinyurl.com/hrfqf5k
"The Serbs in order to correct data in the ethnographical statistics not quite favorable to them, are engaged quite simply in the systematic extermination of the Muslim population"

- Kosta Novakovic http://www.kosova.com/arkivi1997/expuls/dok5.htm
"In 1912 and 1913, 120,000 Albanians were exterminated - men, women, boys, old men and women, children - hundreds of villages were shot by heavy guns, a large number of them were burned down, more in Kosova and less in Macedonia."

@bishop
"As if the Serbs did anything even close to what your Turk brothers did when they forced out and then killed millions of Armenians and Greeks when they formed modern turkey!"

Is this your justification of the genocide? That you didn't do it as much as the Turks?
In the morbid toplist of the European genocide perpetrators, you rank up high at the top together with the Turks, and the examples that you follow are quite telling. Or as Vasa Cubrilovic, reasoned at "The Expulsion of the Albanians": "At a time when Germany can expel tens of thousands of Jews and Russia can shift millions of people from one part of the continent to another, the expulsion of the Albanians will not lead to the outbreak of a world war"

@prizren
what a weak attempt to try an continue a "debate" you were crushed in...still waiting for the books and specific PAGES in which the great albanian historians form the 19th century made the illyrian claim...your lack of response and proof shows what type of pathetic points you are trying to make...