In your role as CP of the B92 forums, you never really tell the entire story, but only that little portion which supports your position.
Bill Clinton was deliberately not convicted. That would have been difficult on the nation. Instead he was "run over the coals."
Innocent? Not guilty? Wrongfully accused?
April 1999: 2 months after being acquitted, Clinton was cited by Federal District Judge Susan Webber Wright for civil contempt of court for his "willful failure" to obey her repeated orders to testify truthfully in the Paula Jones sexual harassment lawsuit. For this citation, Clinton was assessed a $90,000 fine, and the matter was referred to the Arkansas Supreme Court to see if disciplinary action would be appropriate.Clinton entered into an out-of-court settlement by agreeing to pay Jones $850,000.
January 2001: On the day before leaving office, Clinton agreed to a 5-year suspension of his Arkansas law license as part of an agreement with the independent counsel to end the investigation. Based on this state bar suspension, Clinton was automatically suspended from the U.S. Supreme Court bar and allowed 40 days to appeal an otherwise-automatic disbarment; Clinton chose to resign during the appeals period.
You are morally bankrupt in continuing to say he was rightfully found innocent of PERJURY by "winning" a 50-50 vote.
You are clearly confusd and morally bankrupt.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Hahaha... why?! If that's because you say so, who cares lol
----------
Clinton as not cleared of impeachment. Impeachment stays with you forever.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
As even yourself wrote, Clinton was found not guilty of the crimes he was accused of in the impeachment. So, if you define "not cleared" as "found not guilty" of course, you are correct. It's all a matter of how you define something :)
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You are also morally bankrupt. You continue to say he was improperly impeached.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
I did not say that "he was improperly impeached". 5th false statement that you've made so far... lol
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Yet on the count of PERJURY the vote was 50 for and 50 against.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Yup, and that means that he was not guilty of that count. Thanks for providing the evidence :)
----------
Finally, Impeachment is a perogative of the US House of Reps, not the Senate. So to them your statement is laughable. But they probably understand tht due to your role as B92 CP.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
I did not say that the impeachment is a prerogative of the Senate. But trying the impeachment charges and adjudging if they are correct or not, IS a prerogative of the Senate seating as a Court of Impeachment because the US Constitution says so, whether you like it or not.
Clinton was not found innocent of impeachment. Show me some legal record that says that. Again, we wait with bated breath.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Again, I am very sorry for you waiting with bated breath for a second time; hopefully you did not have to go to the hospital for doing that for a couple of days lol
However, before I show you the legal records of Clinton being found innocent of impeachment, you have to first show the legal records of impeachment :)
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Maybe you were absent that day in school?
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Yup, thanks God, I was certainly absent to listen to your teachings hehehe
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Clinton's record will always say he was impeached. Period. Full Stop,
CP = Chief Propagandist
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Of course, as it will also say that the allegations made in the impeachment were not proven. Just because incorrect allegations are made against a person, does not make that person a worse person.
But, if you want to feel a worse person just because somebody may make incorrect allegations against you, please feel free to do so! I totally understand that not everybody has the same self-respect standards.
Many people are incorrectly accused of crimes they did not commit and are then found not guilty. So, not sure what is the point you are trying to make. A person accused of something and found not guilty of that charge is no worse than a person never accused of something.
==================
You are wrong. Clinton was impeached. Full stop. That fact never changes.
You are correct when you say he was found not guilty of the crimes he was accused of.
However, the impeachment remains. It does not go away (as you falsely write in order to deceive the forum participants in your role as CP.
The Congress of the USA impeached President Clinton (although, yes, you are correct, I should have written "House").
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Ok, good you have started to make some progress. That means that the other thing you wrote that "everything [I] say is rubbish" is also incorrect, because, at least, one thing I said was not rubbish.
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this doesn't change the fact that Clinton was impeached. Past tense. Accomplished fact. Done deal. Cannot be reversed.
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Ok, and I said the same thing. I quote again what I already wrote (also in past tense): "The US House of Representatives impeached President Clinton".
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You are confused or deliberately muddy the water by saying the lack of conviction removes the impeachment (Clinton was found not guilty of the impeachment charges that the House raised). It does not.
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Nope, you are writing a false statement, again. I did not say "the lack of conviction removes the impeachement". You said that.
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Clinton was indeed impeached. Done deal. Accomplished fact. Cannot be reversed. As such, his presidency was dis-reputed
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Many people are incorrectly accused of crimes they did not commit and are then found not guilty. So, not sure what is the point you are trying to make. A person accused of something and found not guilty of that charge is no worse than a person never accused of something.
Clinton as not cleared of impeachment. Impeachment stays with you forever.
You are also morally bankrupt. You continue to say he was improperly impeached. Yet on the count of PERJURY the vote was 50 for and 50 against.
Finally, Impeachment is a perogative of the US House of Reps, not the Senate. So to them your statement is laughable. But they probably understand tht due to your role as B92 CP.
Clinton was not found innocent of impeachment. Show me some legal record that says that. Again, we wait with bated breath.
Maybe you were absent that day in school?
Clinton's record will always say he was impeached. Period. Full Stop,
Factman wrote: The Congress of the USA impeached President Clinton (although, yes, you are correct, I should have written "House").
Nevertheless, this doesn't change the fact that Clinton was impeached. Past tense. Accomplished fact. Done deal. Cannot be reversed.
You are confused or deliberately muddy the water by saying the lack of conviction removes the impeachment (Clinton was found not guilty of the impeachment charges that the House raised). It does not.
Clinton was indeed impeached. Done deal. Accomplished fact. Cannot be reversed. As such, his presidency was dis-reputed, and his biography will always say so now and forever.
Definiton of impeachment:
Impeachment is a formal process in which an official is accused of unlawful activity, the outcome of which, may include the removal of that official from office as well as criminal or civil punishment.
The House must first pass articles of impeachment, which constitute the formal allegation or allegations. Upon passage, the defendant has been "impeached".
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment
PS: The vote on PERJURY was 50-50 (not exactly a glowing endorsement of his morality). To categorize that as "incorrectly impeached" is a morally bankrupt statement by you.
You of course will muddy the central point by making fun of the Wikipedia source. How slippery of you :)
Loser. Go tell your story to non-Americans.
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Mate, there is no need to lose it - just do some research before writing. You wrote something that is incorrect and that's OK, all humans make errors sometime, but not all of them act like children when caught stating something that is incorrect. You screaming "rubbish", "loser" and yadda, yadda, yadda is not going to change the fact that what you wrote was factually incorrect as proven even by your own evidence!
Everything you say is rubbish
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Haha that's what children say when they lose an argument :) But anyway I'm more than open for you to take one of the things I said and explain why it is rubbish. Entertain us a bit...
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You are clearly confused
President Clinton was impeached. Period.
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Yes, and that's what I said, I quote my prior post "The US House of Representatives impeached President Clinton". So not sure what confusion you are talking about!
---------'
See NY Times (writing in the past tense as an accomplished fact).
[link].
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Yes and thanks for providing the link that supports MY point that "Clinton was impeached on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice by a divided HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES" not by CONGRESS as you incorrectly stated. That's what your own link says :)
---------
He was acquitted by the Senate. But the Senate has no bearing on the US House. Two different legislative bodies.
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
It does, because according to the US consitution, the House makes the impeachment charges (similarly to what a prosecutor does with an indictement) but it is the Senate that acts as a Court to conduct a trial for those impeachment charges to determine if the President is guilty of those charges, and the Senate (the Court in this case) ruled that Clinton was not guilty of the impeachment charges that the House raised.
Well, some Serb, not all of them (always according to the same sources you provided)... Similarly to some Albanian who were Nazi's and fascists... similarly to some French who were Nazi's and fascists and so on. Unfortunately, few countries in Europe, if any, were free of any Nazi's and fascists during WW2.
(icj1, 7 January 2016 03:08)
Not "some", most Albanians were fascists as were Italians.
One big difference, Serbia and France did not declare war on the US, Albanian, Croatia, Romania and others did.
If Serbs were Nazi's and fascists during WW2 (as some below say)
(factman, 6 January 2016 04:00)
Well, some Serb, not all of them (always according to the same sources you provided)... Similarly to some Albanian who were Nazi's and fascists... similarly to some French who were Nazi's and fascists and so on. Unfortunately, few countries in Europe, if any, were free of any Nazi's and fascists during WW2.
The establishment of the ICTY is one thing but the running of that organisation is totally another.
Once the ICTY was established it can go on forever provided someone funds it. Russia, China or Serbia cannot stop it.
(sj, 6 January 2016 12:02)
Well, according to the UN, Theodor Meron (so much hated by the most patriotic of Serbs) who run that organization from 2003 to 2005 and from 2011 to 2015 has been approved by Russia, not once, but several times, the last of which was in 2010 when Russia approved the extension of his term as an ICTY judge. Meron would not be there today if Russia did not want it. The same goes for the rest of the judges.
But, obviously the CE of the B92 forums is totally correct that Serbia cannot stop it because Serbia does not have a veto power in the UNSC.
Yup, that great country righted the wrong and declared Clinton not guilty for the alleged crimes he was incorrectly impeached for :)
*****
You are an ignorant person.
Stick to what you know.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
That's really entertaining considering what you write next :)
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The Congress of the USA impeached President Clinton.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
The above is an ignorant comment. The US House of Representatives impeached President Clinton, NOT the Congress. For your information, the Congress in the US is composed of the House of Representatives and the Senate.
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Who exactly found him not guilty? Where? What date? What court? Why was it incorrect? The Congress of thew USA says it was not incorrect.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
The US Senate, which is empowered by the US Constitution to try impeachment charges raised by the House, found President Clinton not guilty of the impeachment charges in Washington D.C., on 12th February 1999.
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Please enlighten us. Please. We all wait with bated breath.
Loser.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
I hope now that you are enlightened and I'm really sorry that you had to wait with bated breath - I hope you did not have any health complications because of that. I'm sure though few other members of these forums, if any, were as ignorant as you to wait with bated breath the revealing of such easily verifiable facts :)
The establishment of the ICTY is one thing but the running of that organisation is totally another. It’s the “judicial” component that has made it a three ring circus not the UN, Serbia or Russia.
The ICTY is the laughing stock in most countries as its judiciary are incapable of running a traffic court in their own countries and some are barely qualified as legal practitioners. The Nuremberg trials were something totally different to the ITCY.
Russia was incapable of vetoing anything at the time the ICTY was established. It was do what you’re told or no loans from the IMF. Russia was broke.
Once the ICTY was established it can go on forever provided someone funds it. Russia, China or Serbia cannot stop it.
If the ICTY is “legit” then I suggest that we replace your court system with the ICTY and see if you like to have hearsay and rumour used as legitimate means of conviction. Now that’s fair.
Your comment is irrelevant. ICTY has an UN mandat. Established after UN Security Council, Resolution 827 (1993). http://www.refworld.org/docid/3b00f21b1c.html
Serbia is UN Member, they could try to fight ICTY if it was unjust. They wont.
Russia has a Veto right, therfore they could have prevented and can still stop ICTY. They wont.
The reason why neither Russia nor your Government fights ICTY iiiiiiiiiiis.... Hold your panties.... wait... almost there... its legit. Badum tss.
Lenny you have to take something for that problem otherwise those voices will not go away.
Kroatia has to stop counting people that only pass through that country as tourists. I have to remind you Lenny that Krovatia has sanctions on Russia and Russians no come to Ustashaland.
Wrong again. The international community did not rely on just the Serbian government’s information. They have their intelligence services and it’s from these sources that UQK were declared a terrorist group. In fact Thaci was on Interpol’s most wanted list until the US converted him to freedom and democracy.
Serbs don’t care about any reconciliation with Albanians. The west does not care about you so why should we? Have they removed all that depleted uranium in southern Kosovo? NO.
The ICTY is a JOKE. The entire world knows it and laughs at them. Especially after Seselj who was held for years with no charges then let go all of a sudden LOL. Then we have two that were investigated and no charges brought against them and now they want to prosecute them.
You have no idea what they have done to the international justice system.
You know Serbs will not sleep well because Albanians will not forget. Please grow up and stop writing such drivel.
Germany and its Axis allies invaded and dismembered Yugoslavia in April 1941 and endorsed the so-called Independent State of Croatia by the fanatically nationalist, fascist, separatist, and terrorist Ustaša organization on April 10, 1941.
Ustaša authorities erected numerous concentration camps in Croatia between 1941 and 1945.
The largest was the Jasenovac complex where the Ustaša murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 - 1945.
The Croat authorities also murdered between 320,000 and 340,000 ethnic Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia during the period of Ustaša rule; more than 30,000 Croatian Jews were killed either in Croatia or at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Between 1941 - 1943, Croat authorities deported Jews to Jasenovac and shot many at the nearby killing sites of Granik and Gradina
Croat authorities permitted Germans to transfer most of Croatia's surviving Jews (about 7,000), to Auschwitz.
***** The research mentions that 5 camps existed, but only gives estimates for one: Jasenovac
***** So I guess since Serbs were Nazi's they supported these acts. How preposterous!
America will eventually clear up the policy diasasters of the pathetic, undignified, immoral, and impeached Clinton Presidency because it is a great country and all great countries eventually right past wrongs.
(factman, 5 January 2016 15:26)
Yup, that great country righted the wrong and declared Clinton not guilty for the alleged crimes he was incorrectly impeached for :)
you falsly wish to paint every serb as being schizo, but here you are, trying to argue the early 90s documentation from interpol, post 90s analysis by top military brass, and larger policing organizations, like a serb would argue the hauge tribunals level of fairness
(slapchop, 5 January 2016 17:40)
Well, the difference is that facts established BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT by a UN Court on behalf of the international community as a whole are much stronger than "facts" established by, say, analysis of some top military brass.
Otherwise I don't see a reason why to not use, say, CIA's Factbook to establish facts. But, I'm afraid, that would be a heresy for the most patriotic of Serbs.
To Leonard,
You will find that Russian's are buying up house ,Apartments and will be holidaying in Greece.
P's I know that for a fact because ,I seen them with my own eyes.
You make good points but I disagree on some topics. UQK was declared by Serb Government a terrorist group, Int. community reacted based on that, until the truth was revealed. Political shifts happen for a reason.
I dont wish to paint every serb a schizo, because I know for a fact that not all serbs agree with the government point of view when it comes to Kosovo. Serbia made a lot of mistakes in the past but the biggest mistake was to deny and continue to deny the commited crimes. Serbia should have got rid of the nationalist like Germany after WWII. Accept defeat, full admission of guilt and reparation. Thats how real reconciliation works.
ICTY is Serbias Nürnberg Prozess. No matter what changes, that wont change. Of corse Serbia wants to forget, I dont blame you for that. Most citizens of Serbia had no or less impact on the events since the 90ies. I get that. The problem is that Croats, Bosniaks and Kosovars were all affected by that terror regime. We cant nor do we want to forget because there are many people who died. Forgetting would mean we would have to forget about them too. Thats just not possible.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Priests, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
==========================
He was talking about your lot not the Orthodox. We have never had priests and nuns killing innocent children in our churches and concentration camps set up especially for children with their own hands.
So think that it applies to us if it makes you sleep easier at night.
The article relates to Stepinac and reasons why SPC has sought an inquiry about this man’s activities during WW2 and then Draza Mihajlovic was raised by someone posting as Vojvodina,
(sj, 5 January 2016 10:57) SJ your Orthodox greater Serb garb religion is no better. It is the usual the pretentious spiritually dead garb. Leading the people in to hell as usual http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1059192.html by pulling the wool over their eyes. Like Jesus said of them Mat 23:15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Priests, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. On a brighter note Croatia's tourism http://www.total-croatia-news.com/travel/2009-germans-top-visitors-as-central-dalmatia-records-bumper-2015 is is on a ever bigger upward trajectory. This year our dear Russian friends will be coming in huge droves to very beautiful peaceful Croatia. With the Middle East, North Africa and Turkey off to Russians.
@gjon, sure it is not the only article favouring my point, but all one needs is to show one counter example to your premise: you're welcome. the larger point is that the organizations leading kosova were formerly identified as terrorist organizations, with links to larger more internationally recognized ones.
your stance is that since the opinions and political tides have shifted that that alone is enough to absolve the terrorists as what they are. these political shifts happen at a geologic pace, but when they do, they are earth shattering for those on the fault line.
as the serbs about how political allies are easily washed away. a mere 70 years ago it was serbia and serbia alone that was allied with the western world. it was croatia, bosnia and albania (with their kosovo attachment) that were the enemies of the west.
times changed, and times will continue to change.
you falsly wish to paint every serb as being schizo, but here you are, trying to argue the early 90s documentation from interpol, post 90s analysis by top military brass, and larger policing organizations, like a serb would argue the hauge tribunals level of fairness.
hey, serbs made their beds. but don't pretend that because today someone wants to forget a past, that tomorrow it won't be remembered.
Sounds very strange when peoples who mudded themselves in cooperation with the NAZI try to accuse Serbs as the only enemy NAZY on the Balkans of the sins of those collaborationist peoples. We all know that Serbs/Montenegrins made 90% of the partisan forces in the region and that they were almost the only ones who resisted the Nazi in Europe for long 4 years while he rest joined them only in 1944-45. Of course not Shqiptars sucked the Nazi and not all the Croats were buried near Stalingrad but those were only exclusions from the rule. Meanwhile the Serbs conducted a total and national war. Next active were the Greeks. But what do we have here today ? Some shameless trolls born thanks to the Serbian partisans now bark at their saviors. You will never admit that your ancestors were as dirty cowards as you are because it's a genetic disease. But please do not try to persuade us that black was white because we know the truth. You may glorify your bastards because you have no one else to glorify. And possibly Vatican will support you because you were brothers in arms with Vatican and with your Hitler.
Oh, these catholic Albos, no matter how soundly people kick their asses, they are always there, stuck in the Serbian websites. Gjon you entertainer, how do you dare to leave a comment on this topic? And you know how soundly the ortho-communists kicked your predecessors' asses in Yugoslavia, Albania and Kosovo, right? Ideally, we have never quit and will never quit. Got it Gjon? Ashtu de, bravo, the peace be with you, cathos. And go entertain cathos in catho websites once in a while for God's sake!
The URL's provided were from an America I grew up in that is markedly different from the undignified ClintonIan America who's list of policy disasters is to great to list in 1500 characters.
(factman, 5 January 2016 15:26)
I checked your sources. The oldest is from 2008. What exactely are you talking about? Because I`m almost certain you didnt live during WWII. FAIL!
@marku, what's really funny, funnier than serbian schizophrenia is albanian. almost as a consensus most of our albanian brethren on this site support every thing that the west says, except that they disagree with the original, and still valid western assessment of the kla (uck - as you may know them), as being a terrorist organization, one that is funded by al quaeda.
funny how nato and western allies conveniently are not being honest in those cases, but are in others...
there is no point in discussions when people choose to close their minds to things. you've pointed that out about serbs (and you aren't very wrong), but you didn't have it in you to reflect upon yourself and your own.
Nope. It seems you choose to pick only the news favouring you. Let me give you a little context. Ushtria Çlirimtare e Kosovës was seen in the beginning of the war as Terrorist organisation because of its guerilla tactic (Like ETA or IRA). Later Ushtria Çlirimtare e Kosovës sat at the negotiation table in Rambouillet and was recognised as official Militia(Nato) or Army(Government of Kosovo) and Nato Partner during the War.
At the end of the day it doesnt even matter anymore because as their name says, they fought for the liberation of Kosovo and appearently they succeded. No Serb police, NO serb army, No serb officials. Mission accomplished I would say.
If you really want to talk about events, you cannot pick one single article, you need to look at the developement. My point is, if you use a source as credible then you have to accept this source even if it doesnt fit your believes anymore. You cannot flip flop the whole time. Thats called integrity.
The URL's I provided were from an America that I grew up in that is markedly different from the one that took place from the very undignified President Clinton who's list of policy disasters is to great to list in 1500 characters.
Is that too difficult for you to understand?
America will be great again as soon as it clears up the policy diasasters of the pathetic and impeached Clinton Presidency.
The URL's provided were from an America I grew up in that is markedly different from the undignified ClintonIan America who's list of policy disasters is to great to list in 1500 characters.
America will eventually clear up the policy diasasters of the pathetic, undignified, immoral, and impeached Clinton Presidency because it is a great country and all great countries eventually right past wrongs.
I'll make sure to send those URL's at that time too.
@ gesi (or should i say guessy)...
croatia: 495
serbia: 578
seems maths aren't your strongest point. or perhaps its reading, or perhaps its research, but in reality it is laziness... 15 seconds and the magic of the interwebs... easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy... if you're going to make stuff up, don't make up tripe that can oh, so ever easily be dug up and presented to you.
Let's forget the massacre in Srebrenica all because an American fighter jet went down in Prijedor and the American soldier wasn't killed in 1994. It's the same with convicted war criminal Draza just because you save a few yanks it doesn't excuse the fact that his forces slaughtered non Serbs. Why is there more Jews in today's Croatia than Serbia ?.
Let's forget the massacre in Srebrenica all because an American fighter jet went down in Prijedor and the American soldier wasn't killed in 1994. It's the same with convicted war criminal Draza just because you save a few yanks it doesn't excuse the fact that his forces slaughtered non Serbs. Why is there more Jews in today's Croatia than Serbia ?.
(Gesi, 5 January 2016 11:17)
And here I thought Muslims don’t drink. Well I’m proven wrong.
Then why dont you believe the same sources when it comes to everything that happened since 1981? Double-Standards or ignorance?
(Gjon Marku, 5 January 2016 10:18)
The article relates to Stepinac and reasons why SPC has sought an inquiry about this man’s activities during WW2 and then Draza Mihajlovic was raised by someone posting as Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49 and that is how discussion evolved.
All documentation regarding either men is prior to 1981. It’s not a choice it’s a fact.
Its not a matter of not believing as there are plenty of truthful events documented after 1981. The real problem is 1990 onwards. A well-known example is the “weapons of mass destruction in Iraq”.
A quick lesson on hate in the Balkans
Ustasha hates Serbs,always will, we are regarded as cancer in there veins. My Croatian friends do not hate me nor I them, but I don't have ustasha as friends.
To clarify the 90's...did both sides commit indecent murderous acts, yes, did the Serbs go one step further,no , both sides were equally disgusting. Did the Serbs get justice after WW2 from jasenovac and kragujevac, no the kids are dead and not coming back.
As for Kosovo, the current majority should be thankful that Serbs never deeply hate Albanians or else the outcome would have been alot worse.
I recall the sentiment, as sad as it was at the time, people were sad it wasn't finished properly, what that means is, take it by force, or prepare to be expelled out of our country.
As for the Roman Catholics, there faith will fail exactly when they change there calendar the next time, when this happens they will be twice removed form orthodox Julien.
Very easy. These are western documents that prove the point and since your lot only believes in western sources we use them.
I’ve seen Albanians use non-western sources to substantiate their argument.
The head of the Orthodox Church forgot to mention that before Chetnik soldiers went to slaughter Muslims in Srebrenica in 1995 they were all blessed by Orthodox priests and given the green light to kill. You Serbs have no shame !
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
(Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49)
What context is that? Will it ever get into Albano/Ustashi heads that Mihajlovic was on the side of the allies against the Nazis and their Ustahi brotherhood in WW2?
The question put forward to the High Court of Serbia asked if Mihajlovic was given a fair trial after his capture and the obvious answer was NO. It was a stitch up from the start by Tito and his band of semi-literate thugs.
I am glad there is a commission of inquiry into Stepinac and if they find there is no case to answer and he is clear, then the Catholic Church can canonise Stepinac and his pets if they like, but if not then it would be very embarrassing to make him a saint then turn around and demote him.
Operation Halyard
513 US Airmen who were downed by German Nazi’s were rescued and protected by Draza Mihailovich personally and his men. If Draza and his Chetniks were Nazi’s or fascists, then why did they save these men from the real Nazi’s?
CBS Evening News Bronze Star
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/bronze-star-awarded-to-unsung-wwii-hero/
Great Rescues of WW2
https://books.google.com/books?id=6WRN-SoDTBgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Craughwell,+Thomas+J.+Great+Rescues+of+World+War+II&source=bl&ots=DzmMT5w76-&sig=xJa0ZKJ2E6k09TFGi6npMdVAsPA&hl=sr&ei=KAS-TL32CoOYOvzYxB4&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false
I like how Serbs on this thread use American sources to prove their point at the same time refuse and demonize the exact same sources when it comes to everything that happend in the 90ies. An uninvolved person would call this schizophrenic but who am I to judge, right.
Pathetic! At least have some Dignity. Already looking forward to someone trying to explain this to me.
"The Croatian daily further writes that the letter proposed to the pope, via Cardinal Kurt Koch who is in charge of relations with other Christians, that the result of the Commission's work should include, among other things, 'an act of purification of historical memory.'"
"An act of purification of historical memory."
What could he mean by this? I would hope that it is a suggestion that the Catholic Church might go on the record as apologizing for its believers who committed atrocities in its name. And certainly rejecting esteeming its own spiritual authority there who instigated these atrocities as a Catholic saint.
That might patch up history, but what would it do to alter the course of history at the present moment?
Pres Truman gave Mihailovich the Legion of Merit (highest award given to a foreign national) upon recommendation of Gen Dwight Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the American Allied Forces (and future American Pres)
See links below
Pres Truman Medal
http://kingdom-of-yugoslavia-in-ww2.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/0032-Trumanov-orden-Drazi2.jpg
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
(Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49)
=========================
Stop listening to your ustasha relatives and try looking at facts for a change.
The very concept of the Roman church giving the title of 'Saint' is an invention and a bit of a stupidity. It is not a biblical concept and the whole administrative structure of popes, bishops and priests is just an invention of man.
So let's get this in perspective.
Silly hats, silly jobs and silly titles.
Even the concept of faith seems to be a bit of a silliness. God was a brilliant invention of the ancients to try to explain the universe. What amazes me is that brains are so slow to move on and adjust to the inevitable conclusion that that 'guess' is no longer a necessary explanation.
Stepanic was associated with the bloody birth of a fascist state - why the Roman church might want to associate with that seems to have something in common with the church's evil (and non-biblical) historical praising of witch burning or justifying the tortures of the inquisition.
Perhaps they have realised that (at last) and are looking for a way out.
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
(Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49)
In Washington DC there are military archives that still exist to this day about Americans participating in WWII. There they mention Draza being a honorable leader who believed in Western values. In these archieves they highlight how Draza helped civilians of all nationalities escape Belgrade which the Germans occupied, and kept them safe in the mountains where the Chetniks operated.
Draza Mihailovich is an honorable man who was posthumous decorated by Harry Truman and Charles de Gaulle. Stepinac is none of those things. He was a Nazi Ustasha rat.
TIME Magazine had Chica Draza Mihailovich as their "Man of the Year" and people around the world hailed the leader and his heroic resistance fighters in 1941, the FIRST to stand up to Hitler's Germany, you still wish to make your stand, on those wicker legs?
i no not for certain, as i was not there, but if america, and the west, and the world agreed with time magazine's depiction, who are we to disagree. kinda like all of the event of the 90s. some people disagree with the western assessment of the yugo slaughters, they are considered wrong. like you, you are considered wrong by the rest of the world. so, like a tiny nationalist in your own bubble you can declare all you wish, but when the world has spoken, no on is listening to you.
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
(Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49)
In Washington DC there are military archives that still exist to this day about Americans participating in WWII. There they mention Draza being a honorable leader who believed in Western values. In these archieves they highlight how Draza helped civilians of all nationalities escape Belgrade which the Germans occupied, and kept them safe in the mountains where the Chetniks operated.
Draza Mihailovich is an honorable man who was posthumous decorated by Harry Truman and Charles de Gaulle. Stepinac is none of those things. He was a Nazi Ustasha rat.
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
(Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49)
=========================
Stop listening to your ustasha relatives and try looking at facts for a change.
TIME Magazine had Chica Draza Mihailovich as their "Man of the Year" and people around the world hailed the leader and his heroic resistance fighters in 1941, the FIRST to stand up to Hitler's Germany, you still wish to make your stand, on those wicker legs?
i no not for certain, as i was not there, but if america, and the west, and the world agreed with time magazine's depiction, who are we to disagree. kinda like all of the event of the 90s. some people disagree with the western assessment of the yugo slaughters, they are considered wrong. like you, you are considered wrong by the rest of the world. so, like a tiny nationalist in your own bubble you can declare all you wish, but when the world has spoken, no on is listening to you.
Pres Truman gave Mihailovich the Legion of Merit (highest award given to a foreign national) upon recommendation of Gen Dwight Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the American Allied Forces (and future American Pres)
See links below
Pres Truman Medal
http://kingdom-of-yugoslavia-in-ww2.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/0032-Trumanov-orden-Drazi2.jpg
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
The very concept of the Roman church giving the title of 'Saint' is an invention and a bit of a stupidity. It is not a biblical concept and the whole administrative structure of popes, bishops and priests is just an invention of man.
So let's get this in perspective.
Silly hats, silly jobs and silly titles.
Even the concept of faith seems to be a bit of a silliness. God was a brilliant invention of the ancients to try to explain the universe. What amazes me is that brains are so slow to move on and adjust to the inevitable conclusion that that 'guess' is no longer a necessary explanation.
Stepanic was associated with the bloody birth of a fascist state - why the Roman church might want to associate with that seems to have something in common with the church's evil (and non-biblical) historical praising of witch burning or justifying the tortures of the inquisition.
Perhaps they have realised that (at last) and are looking for a way out.
The head of the Orthodox Church forgot to mention that before Chetnik soldiers went to slaughter Muslims in Srebrenica in 1995 they were all blessed by Orthodox priests and given the green light to kill. You Serbs have no shame !
I like how Serbs on this thread use American sources to prove their point at the same time refuse and demonize the exact same sources when it comes to everything that happend in the 90ies. An uninvolved person would call this schizophrenic but who am I to judge, right.
Pathetic! At least have some Dignity. Already looking forward to someone trying to explain this to me.
A quick lesson on hate in the Balkans
Ustasha hates Serbs,always will, we are regarded as cancer in there veins. My Croatian friends do not hate me nor I them, but I don't have ustasha as friends.
To clarify the 90's...did both sides commit indecent murderous acts, yes, did the Serbs go one step further,no , both sides were equally disgusting. Did the Serbs get justice after WW2 from jasenovac and kragujevac, no the kids are dead and not coming back.
As for Kosovo, the current majority should be thankful that Serbs never deeply hate Albanians or else the outcome would have been alot worse.
I recall the sentiment, as sad as it was at the time, people were sad it wasn't finished properly, what that means is, take it by force, or prepare to be expelled out of our country.
As for the Roman Catholics, there faith will fail exactly when they change there calendar the next time, when this happens they will be twice removed form orthodox Julien.
Oh, these catholic Albos, no matter how soundly people kick their asses, they are always there, stuck in the Serbian websites. Gjon you entertainer, how do you dare to leave a comment on this topic? And you know how soundly the ortho-communists kicked your predecessors' asses in Yugoslavia, Albania and Kosovo, right? Ideally, we have never quit and will never quit. Got it Gjon? Ashtu de, bravo, the peace be with you, cathos. And go entertain cathos in catho websites once in a while for God's sake!
Let's forget the massacre in Srebrenica all because an American fighter jet went down in Prijedor and the American soldier wasn't killed in 1994. It's the same with convicted war criminal Draza just because you save a few yanks it doesn't excuse the fact that his forces slaughtered non Serbs. Why is there more Jews in today's Croatia than Serbia ?.
Let's forget the massacre in Srebrenica all because an American fighter jet went down in Prijedor and the American soldier wasn't killed in 1994. It's the same with convicted war criminal Draza just because you save a few yanks it doesn't excuse the fact that his forces slaughtered non Serbs. Why is there more Jews in today's Croatia than Serbia ?.
(Gesi, 5 January 2016 11:17)
And here I thought Muslims don’t drink. Well I’m proven wrong.
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
(Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49)
What context is that? Will it ever get into Albano/Ustashi heads that Mihajlovic was on the side of the allies against the Nazis and their Ustahi brotherhood in WW2?
The question put forward to the High Court of Serbia asked if Mihajlovic was given a fair trial after his capture and the obvious answer was NO. It was a stitch up from the start by Tito and his band of semi-literate thugs.
I am glad there is a commission of inquiry into Stepinac and if they find there is no case to answer and he is clear, then the Catholic Church can canonise Stepinac and his pets if they like, but if not then it would be very embarrassing to make him a saint then turn around and demote him.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Priests, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
==========================
He was talking about your lot not the Orthodox. We have never had priests and nuns killing innocent children in our churches and concentration camps set up especially for children with their own hands.
So think that it applies to us if it makes you sleep easier at night.
Then why dont you believe the same sources when it comes to everything that happened since 1981? Double-Standards or ignorance?
(Gjon Marku, 5 January 2016 10:18)
The article relates to Stepinac and reasons why SPC has sought an inquiry about this man’s activities during WW2 and then Draza Mihajlovic was raised by someone posting as Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49 and that is how discussion evolved.
All documentation regarding either men is prior to 1981. It’s not a choice it’s a fact.
Its not a matter of not believing as there are plenty of truthful events documented after 1981. The real problem is 1990 onwards. A well-known example is the “weapons of mass destruction in Iraq”.
Sounds very strange when peoples who mudded themselves in cooperation with the NAZI try to accuse Serbs as the only enemy NAZY on the Balkans of the sins of those collaborationist peoples. We all know that Serbs/Montenegrins made 90% of the partisan forces in the region and that they were almost the only ones who resisted the Nazi in Europe for long 4 years while he rest joined them only in 1944-45. Of course not Shqiptars sucked the Nazi and not all the Croats were buried near Stalingrad but those were only exclusions from the rule. Meanwhile the Serbs conducted a total and national war. Next active were the Greeks. But what do we have here today ? Some shameless trolls born thanks to the Serbian partisans now bark at their saviors. You will never admit that your ancestors were as dirty cowards as you are because it's a genetic disease. But please do not try to persuade us that black was white because we know the truth. You may glorify your bastards because you have no one else to glorify. And possibly Vatican will support you because you were brothers in arms with Vatican and with your Hitler.
Very easy. These are western documents that prove the point and since your lot only believes in western sources we use them.
I’ve seen Albanians use non-western sources to substantiate their argument.
The URL's provided were from an America I grew up in that is markedly different from the undignified ClintonIan America who's list of policy disasters is to great to list in 1500 characters.
(factman, 5 January 2016 15:26)
I checked your sources. The oldest is from 2008. What exactely are you talking about? Because I`m almost certain you didnt live during WWII. FAIL!
"The Croatian daily further writes that the letter proposed to the pope, via Cardinal Kurt Koch who is in charge of relations with other Christians, that the result of the Commission's work should include, among other things, 'an act of purification of historical memory.'"
"An act of purification of historical memory."
What could he mean by this? I would hope that it is a suggestion that the Catholic Church might go on the record as apologizing for its believers who committed atrocities in its name. And certainly rejecting esteeming its own spiritual authority there who instigated these atrocities as a Catholic saint.
That might patch up history, but what would it do to alter the course of history at the present moment?
Operation Halyard
513 US Airmen who were downed by German Nazi’s were rescued and protected by Draza Mihailovich personally and his men. If Draza and his Chetniks were Nazi’s or fascists, then why did they save these men from the real Nazi’s?
CBS Evening News Bronze Star
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/bronze-star-awarded-to-unsung-wwii-hero/
Great Rescues of WW2
https://books.google.com/books?id=6WRN-SoDTBgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Craughwell,+Thomas+J.+Great+Rescues+of+World+War+II&source=bl&ots=DzmMT5w76-&sig=xJa0ZKJ2E6k09TFGi6npMdVAsPA&hl=sr&ei=KAS-TL32CoOYOvzYxB4&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false
The URL's provided were from an America I grew up in that is markedly different from the undignified ClintonIan America who's list of policy disasters is to great to list in 1500 characters.
America will eventually clear up the policy diasasters of the pathetic, undignified, immoral, and impeached Clinton Presidency because it is a great country and all great countries eventually right past wrongs.
I'll make sure to send those URL's at that time too.
Nope. It seems you choose to pick only the news favouring you. Let me give you a little context. Ushtria Çlirimtare e Kosovës was seen in the beginning of the war as Terrorist organisation because of its guerilla tactic (Like ETA or IRA). Later Ushtria Çlirimtare e Kosovës sat at the negotiation table in Rambouillet and was recognised as official Militia(Nato) or Army(Government of Kosovo) and Nato Partner during the War.
At the end of the day it doesnt even matter anymore because as their name says, they fought for the liberation of Kosovo and appearently they succeded. No Serb police, NO serb army, No serb officials. Mission accomplished I would say.
If you really want to talk about events, you cannot pick one single article, you need to look at the developement. My point is, if you use a source as credible then you have to accept this source even if it doesnt fit your believes anymore. You cannot flip flop the whole time. Thats called integrity.
Your comment is irrelevant. ICTY has an UN mandat. Established after UN Security Council, Resolution 827 (1993). http://www.refworld.org/docid/3b00f21b1c.html
Serbia is UN Member, they could try to fight ICTY if it was unjust. They wont.
Russia has a Veto right, therfore they could have prevented and can still stop ICTY. They wont.
The reason why neither Russia nor your Government fights ICTY iiiiiiiiiiis.... Hold your panties.... wait... almost there... its legit. Badum tss.
@marku, what's really funny, funnier than serbian schizophrenia is albanian. almost as a consensus most of our albanian brethren on this site support every thing that the west says, except that they disagree with the original, and still valid western assessment of the kla (uck - as you may know them), as being a terrorist organization, one that is funded by al quaeda.
funny how nato and western allies conveniently are not being honest in those cases, but are in others...
there is no point in discussions when people choose to close their minds to things. you've pointed that out about serbs (and you aren't very wrong), but you didn't have it in you to reflect upon yourself and your own.
@gjon, sure it is not the only article favouring my point, but all one needs is to show one counter example to your premise: you're welcome. the larger point is that the organizations leading kosova were formerly identified as terrorist organizations, with links to larger more internationally recognized ones.
your stance is that since the opinions and political tides have shifted that that alone is enough to absolve the terrorists as what they are. these political shifts happen at a geologic pace, but when they do, they are earth shattering for those on the fault line.
as the serbs about how political allies are easily washed away. a mere 70 years ago it was serbia and serbia alone that was allied with the western world. it was croatia, bosnia and albania (with their kosovo attachment) that were the enemies of the west.
times changed, and times will continue to change.
you falsly wish to paint every serb as being schizo, but here you are, trying to argue the early 90s documentation from interpol, post 90s analysis by top military brass, and larger policing organizations, like a serb would argue the hauge tribunals level of fairness.
hey, serbs made their beds. but don't pretend that because today someone wants to forget a past, that tomorrow it won't be remembered.
The article relates to Stepinac and reasons why SPC has sought an inquiry about this man’s activities during WW2 and then Draza Mihajlovic was raised by someone posting as Vojvodina,
(sj, 5 January 2016 10:57) SJ your Orthodox greater Serb garb religion is no better. It is the usual the pretentious spiritually dead garb. Leading the people in to hell as usual http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1059192.html by pulling the wool over their eyes. Like Jesus said of them Mat 23:15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Priests, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. On a brighter note Croatia's tourism http://www.total-croatia-news.com/travel/2009-germans-top-visitors-as-central-dalmatia-records-bumper-2015 is is on a ever bigger upward trajectory. This year our dear Russian friends will be coming in huge droves to very beautiful peaceful Croatia. With the Middle East, North Africa and Turkey off to Russians.
Germany and its Axis allies invaded and dismembered Yugoslavia in April 1941 and endorsed the so-called Independent State of Croatia by the fanatically nationalist, fascist, separatist, and terrorist Ustaša organization on April 10, 1941.
Ustaša authorities erected numerous concentration camps in Croatia between 1941 and 1945.
The largest was the Jasenovac complex where the Ustaša murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 - 1945.
The Croat authorities also murdered between 320,000 and 340,000 ethnic Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia during the period of Ustaša rule; more than 30,000 Croatian Jews were killed either in Croatia or at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Between 1941 - 1943, Croat authorities deported Jews to Jasenovac and shot many at the nearby killing sites of Granik and Gradina
Croat authorities permitted Germans to transfer most of Croatia's surviving Jews (about 7,000), to Auschwitz.
***** The research mentions that 5 camps existed, but only gives estimates for one: Jasenovac
***** So I guess since Serbs were Nazi's they supported these acts. How preposterous!
Lenny you have to take something for that problem otherwise those voices will not go away.
Kroatia has to stop counting people that only pass through that country as tourists. I have to remind you Lenny that Krovatia has sanctions on Russia and Russians no come to Ustashaland.
The establishment of the ICTY is one thing but the running of that organisation is totally another. It’s the “judicial” component that has made it a three ring circus not the UN, Serbia or Russia.
The ICTY is the laughing stock in most countries as its judiciary are incapable of running a traffic court in their own countries and some are barely qualified as legal practitioners. The Nuremberg trials were something totally different to the ITCY.
Russia was incapable of vetoing anything at the time the ICTY was established. It was do what you’re told or no loans from the IMF. Russia was broke.
Once the ICTY was established it can go on forever provided someone funds it. Russia, China or Serbia cannot stop it.
If the ICTY is “legit” then I suggest that we replace your court system with the ICTY and see if you like to have hearsay and rumour used as legitimate means of conviction. Now that’s fair.
@ gesi (or should i say guessy)...
croatia: 495
serbia: 578
seems maths aren't your strongest point. or perhaps its reading, or perhaps its research, but in reality it is laziness... 15 seconds and the magic of the interwebs... easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy... if you're going to make stuff up, don't make up tripe that can oh, so ever easily be dug up and presented to you.
You make good points but I disagree on some topics. UQK was declared by Serb Government a terrorist group, Int. community reacted based on that, until the truth was revealed. Political shifts happen for a reason.
I dont wish to paint every serb a schizo, because I know for a fact that not all serbs agree with the government point of view when it comes to Kosovo. Serbia made a lot of mistakes in the past but the biggest mistake was to deny and continue to deny the commited crimes. Serbia should have got rid of the nationalist like Germany after WWII. Accept defeat, full admission of guilt and reparation. Thats how real reconciliation works.
ICTY is Serbias Nürnberg Prozess. No matter what changes, that wont change. Of corse Serbia wants to forget, I dont blame you for that. Most citizens of Serbia had no or less impact on the events since the 90ies. I get that. The problem is that Croats, Bosniaks and Kosovars were all affected by that terror regime. We cant nor do we want to forget because there are many people who died. Forgetting would mean we would have to forget about them too. Thats just not possible.
To Leonard,
You will find that Russian's are buying up house ,Apartments and will be holidaying in Greece.
P's I know that for a fact because ,I seen them with my own eyes.
you falsly wish to paint every serb as being schizo, but here you are, trying to argue the early 90s documentation from interpol, post 90s analysis by top military brass, and larger policing organizations, like a serb would argue the hauge tribunals level of fairness
(slapchop, 5 January 2016 17:40)
Well, the difference is that facts established BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT by a UN Court on behalf of the international community as a whole are much stronger than "facts" established by, say, analysis of some top military brass.
Otherwise I don't see a reason why to not use, say, CIA's Factbook to establish facts. But, I'm afraid, that would be a heresy for the most patriotic of Serbs.
Wrong again. The international community did not rely on just the Serbian government’s information. They have their intelligence services and it’s from these sources that UQK were declared a terrorist group. In fact Thaci was on Interpol’s most wanted list until the US converted him to freedom and democracy.
Serbs don’t care about any reconciliation with Albanians. The west does not care about you so why should we? Have they removed all that depleted uranium in southern Kosovo? NO.
The ICTY is a JOKE. The entire world knows it and laughs at them. Especially after Seselj who was held for years with no charges then let go all of a sudden LOL. Then we have two that were investigated and no charges brought against them and now they want to prosecute them.
You have no idea what they have done to the international justice system.
You know Serbs will not sleep well because Albanians will not forget. Please grow up and stop writing such drivel.
If Serbs were Nazi's and fascists during WW2 (as some below say)
(factman, 6 January 2016 04:00)
Well, some Serb, not all of them (always according to the same sources you provided)... Similarly to some Albanian who were Nazi's and fascists... similarly to some French who were Nazi's and fascists and so on. Unfortunately, few countries in Europe, if any, were free of any Nazi's and fascists during WW2.
Loser. Go tell your story to non-Americans.
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Mate, there is no need to lose it - just do some research before writing. You wrote something that is incorrect and that's OK, all humans make errors sometime, but not all of them act like children when caught stating something that is incorrect. You screaming "rubbish", "loser" and yadda, yadda, yadda is not going to change the fact that what you wrote was factually incorrect as proven even by your own evidence!
The Congress of the USA impeached President Clinton (although, yes, you are correct, I should have written "House").
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Ok, good you have started to make some progress. That means that the other thing you wrote that "everything [I] say is rubbish" is also incorrect, because, at least, one thing I said was not rubbish.
----------
this doesn't change the fact that Clinton was impeached. Past tense. Accomplished fact. Done deal. Cannot be reversed.
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Ok, and I said the same thing. I quote again what I already wrote (also in past tense): "The US House of Representatives impeached President Clinton".
----------
You are confused or deliberately muddy the water by saying the lack of conviction removes the impeachment (Clinton was found not guilty of the impeachment charges that the House raised). It does not.
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Nope, you are writing a false statement, again. I did not say "the lack of conviction removes the impeachement". You said that.
----------
Clinton was indeed impeached. Done deal. Accomplished fact. Cannot be reversed. As such, his presidency was dis-reputed
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Many people are incorrectly accused of crimes they did not commit and are then found not guilty. So, not sure what is the point you are trying to make. A person accused of something and found not guilty of that charge is no worse than a person never accused of something.
The URL's I provided were from an America that I grew up in that is markedly different from the one that took place from the very undignified President Clinton who's list of policy disasters is to great to list in 1500 characters.
Is that too difficult for you to understand?
America will be great again as soon as it clears up the policy diasasters of the pathetic and impeached Clinton Presidency.
America will eventually clear up the policy diasasters of the pathetic, undignified, immoral, and impeached Clinton Presidency because it is a great country and all great countries eventually right past wrongs.
(factman, 5 January 2016 15:26)
Yup, that great country righted the wrong and declared Clinton not guilty for the alleged crimes he was incorrectly impeached for :)
Yup, that great country righted the wrong and declared Clinton not guilty for the alleged crimes he was incorrectly impeached for :)
*****
You are an ignorant person.
Stick to what you know.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
That's really entertaining considering what you write next :)
----------
The Congress of the USA impeached President Clinton.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
The above is an ignorant comment. The US House of Representatives impeached President Clinton, NOT the Congress. For your information, the Congress in the US is composed of the House of Representatives and the Senate.
----------
Who exactly found him not guilty? Where? What date? What court? Why was it incorrect? The Congress of thew USA says it was not incorrect.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
The US Senate, which is empowered by the US Constitution to try impeachment charges raised by the House, found President Clinton not guilty of the impeachment charges in Washington D.C., on 12th February 1999.
----------
Please enlighten us. Please. We all wait with bated breath.
Loser.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
I hope now that you are enlightened and I'm really sorry that you had to wait with bated breath - I hope you did not have any health complications because of that. I'm sure though few other members of these forums, if any, were as ignorant as you to wait with bated breath the revealing of such easily verifiable facts :)
The establishment of the ICTY is one thing but the running of that organisation is totally another.
Once the ICTY was established it can go on forever provided someone funds it. Russia, China or Serbia cannot stop it.
(sj, 6 January 2016 12:02)
Well, according to the UN, Theodor Meron (so much hated by the most patriotic of Serbs) who run that organization from 2003 to 2005 and from 2011 to 2015 has been approved by Russia, not once, but several times, the last of which was in 2010 when Russia approved the extension of his term as an ICTY judge. Meron would not be there today if Russia did not want it. The same goes for the rest of the judges.
But, obviously the CE of the B92 forums is totally correct that Serbia cannot stop it because Serbia does not have a veto power in the UNSC.
Everything you say is rubbish
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Haha that's what children say when they lose an argument :) But anyway I'm more than open for you to take one of the things I said and explain why it is rubbish. Entertain us a bit...
----------
You are clearly confused
President Clinton was impeached. Period.
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Yes, and that's what I said, I quote my prior post "The US House of Representatives impeached President Clinton". So not sure what confusion you are talking about!
---------'
See NY Times (writing in the past tense as an accomplished fact).
[link].
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Yes and thanks for providing the link that supports MY point that "Clinton was impeached on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice by a divided HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES" not by CONGRESS as you incorrectly stated. That's what your own link says :)
---------
He was acquitted by the Senate. But the Senate has no bearing on the US House. Two different legislative bodies.
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
It does, because according to the US consitution, the House makes the impeachment charges (similarly to what a prosecutor does with an indictement) but it is the Senate that acts as a Court to conduct a trial for those impeachment charges to determine if the President is guilty of those charges, and the Senate (the Court in this case) ruled that Clinton was not guilty of the impeachment charges that the House raised.
Factman wrote: The Congress of the USA impeached President Clinton (although, yes, you are correct, I should have written "House").
Nevertheless, this doesn't change the fact that Clinton was impeached. Past tense. Accomplished fact. Done deal. Cannot be reversed.
You are confused or deliberately muddy the water by saying the lack of conviction removes the impeachment (Clinton was found not guilty of the impeachment charges that the House raised). It does not.
Clinton was indeed impeached. Done deal. Accomplished fact. Cannot be reversed. As such, his presidency was dis-reputed, and his biography will always say so now and forever.
Definiton of impeachment:
Impeachment is a formal process in which an official is accused of unlawful activity, the outcome of which, may include the removal of that official from office as well as criminal or civil punishment.
The House must first pass articles of impeachment, which constitute the formal allegation or allegations. Upon passage, the defendant has been "impeached".
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment
PS: The vote on PERJURY was 50-50 (not exactly a glowing endorsement of his morality). To categorize that as "incorrectly impeached" is a morally bankrupt statement by you.
You of course will muddy the central point by making fun of the Wikipedia source. How slippery of you :)
Clinton as not cleared of impeachment. Impeachment stays with you forever.
You are also morally bankrupt. You continue to say he was improperly impeached. Yet on the count of PERJURY the vote was 50 for and 50 against.
Finally, Impeachment is a perogative of the US House of Reps, not the Senate. So to them your statement is laughable. But they probably understand tht due to your role as B92 CP.
Clinton was not found innocent of impeachment. Show me some legal record that says that. Again, we wait with bated breath.
Maybe you were absent that day in school?
Clinton's record will always say he was impeached. Period. Full Stop,
Many people are incorrectly accused of crimes they did not commit and are then found not guilty. So, not sure what is the point you are trying to make. A person accused of something and found not guilty of that charge is no worse than a person never accused of something.
==================
You are wrong. Clinton was impeached. Full stop. That fact never changes.
You are correct when you say he was found not guilty of the crimes he was accused of.
However, the impeachment remains. It does not go away (as you falsely write in order to deceive the forum participants in your role as CP.
Well, some Serb, not all of them (always according to the same sources you provided)... Similarly to some Albanian who were Nazi's and fascists... similarly to some French who were Nazi's and fascists and so on. Unfortunately, few countries in Europe, if any, were free of any Nazi's and fascists during WW2.
(icj1, 7 January 2016 03:08)
Not "some", most Albanians were fascists as were Italians.
One big difference, Serbia and France did not declare war on the US, Albanian, Croatia, Romania and others did.
You are clearly confusd and morally bankrupt.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Hahaha... why?! If that's because you say so, who cares lol
----------
Clinton as not cleared of impeachment. Impeachment stays with you forever.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
As even yourself wrote, Clinton was found not guilty of the crimes he was accused of in the impeachment. So, if you define "not cleared" as "found not guilty" of course, you are correct. It's all a matter of how you define something :)
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You are also morally bankrupt. You continue to say he was improperly impeached.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
I did not say that "he was improperly impeached". 5th false statement that you've made so far... lol
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Yet on the count of PERJURY the vote was 50 for and 50 against.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Yup, and that means that he was not guilty of that count. Thanks for providing the evidence :)
----------
Finally, Impeachment is a perogative of the US House of Reps, not the Senate. So to them your statement is laughable. But they probably understand tht due to your role as B92 CP.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
I did not say that the impeachment is a prerogative of the Senate. But trying the impeachment charges and adjudging if they are correct or not, IS a prerogative of the Senate seating as a Court of Impeachment because the US Constitution says so, whether you like it or not.
Clinton was not found innocent of impeachment. Show me some legal record that says that. Again, we wait with bated breath.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Again, I am very sorry for you waiting with bated breath for a second time; hopefully you did not have to go to the hospital for doing that for a couple of days lol
However, before I show you the legal records of Clinton being found innocent of impeachment, you have to first show the legal records of impeachment :)
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Maybe you were absent that day in school?
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Yup, thanks God, I was certainly absent to listen to your teachings hehehe
----------
Clinton's record will always say he was impeached. Period. Full Stop,
CP = Chief Propagandist
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Of course, as it will also say that the allegations made in the impeachment were not proven. Just because incorrect allegations are made against a person, does not make that person a worse person.
But, if you want to feel a worse person just because somebody may make incorrect allegations against you, please feel free to do so! I totally understand that not everybody has the same self-respect standards.
In your role as CP of the B92 forums, you never really tell the entire story, but only that little portion which supports your position.
Bill Clinton was deliberately not convicted. That would have been difficult on the nation. Instead he was "run over the coals."
Innocent? Not guilty? Wrongfully accused?
April 1999: 2 months after being acquitted, Clinton was cited by Federal District Judge Susan Webber Wright for civil contempt of court for his "willful failure" to obey her repeated orders to testify truthfully in the Paula Jones sexual harassment lawsuit. For this citation, Clinton was assessed a $90,000 fine, and the matter was referred to the Arkansas Supreme Court to see if disciplinary action would be appropriate.Clinton entered into an out-of-court settlement by agreeing to pay Jones $850,000.
January 2001: On the day before leaving office, Clinton agreed to a 5-year suspension of his Arkansas law license as part of an agreement with the independent counsel to end the investigation. Based on this state bar suspension, Clinton was automatically suspended from the U.S. Supreme Court bar and allowed 40 days to appeal an otherwise-automatic disbarment; Clinton chose to resign during the appeals period.
You are morally bankrupt in continuing to say he was rightfully found innocent of PERJURY by "winning" a 50-50 vote.
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
TIME Magazine had Chica Draza Mihailovich as their "Man of the Year" and people around the world hailed the leader and his heroic resistance fighters in 1941, the FIRST to stand up to Hitler's Germany, you still wish to make your stand, on those wicker legs?
i no not for certain, as i was not there, but if america, and the west, and the world agreed with time magazine's depiction, who are we to disagree. kinda like all of the event of the 90s. some people disagree with the western assessment of the yugo slaughters, they are considered wrong. like you, you are considered wrong by the rest of the world. so, like a tiny nationalist in your own bubble you can declare all you wish, but when the world has spoken, no on is listening to you.
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
(Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49)
In Washington DC there are military archives that still exist to this day about Americans participating in WWII. There they mention Draza being a honorable leader who believed in Western values. In these archieves they highlight how Draza helped civilians of all nationalities escape Belgrade which the Germans occupied, and kept them safe in the mountains where the Chetniks operated.
Draza Mihailovich is an honorable man who was posthumous decorated by Harry Truman and Charles de Gaulle. Stepinac is none of those things. He was a Nazi Ustasha rat.
The head of the Orthodox Church forgot to mention that before Chetnik soldiers went to slaughter Muslims in Srebrenica in 1995 they were all blessed by Orthodox priests and given the green light to kill. You Serbs have no shame !
Let's forget the massacre in Srebrenica all because an American fighter jet went down in Prijedor and the American soldier wasn't killed in 1994. It's the same with convicted war criminal Draza just because you save a few yanks it doesn't excuse the fact that his forces slaughtered non Serbs. Why is there more Jews in today's Croatia than Serbia ?.
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
(Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49)
=========================
Stop listening to your ustasha relatives and try looking at facts for a change.
A quick lesson on hate in the Balkans
Ustasha hates Serbs,always will, we are regarded as cancer in there veins. My Croatian friends do not hate me nor I them, but I don't have ustasha as friends.
To clarify the 90's...did both sides commit indecent murderous acts, yes, did the Serbs go one step further,no , both sides were equally disgusting. Did the Serbs get justice after WW2 from jasenovac and kragujevac, no the kids are dead and not coming back.
As for Kosovo, the current majority should be thankful that Serbs never deeply hate Albanians or else the outcome would have been alot worse.
I recall the sentiment, as sad as it was at the time, people were sad it wasn't finished properly, what that means is, take it by force, or prepare to be expelled out of our country.
As for the Roman Catholics, there faith will fail exactly when they change there calendar the next time, when this happens they will be twice removed form orthodox Julien.
Let's forget the massacre in Srebrenica all because an American fighter jet went down in Prijedor and the American soldier wasn't killed in 1994. It's the same with convicted war criminal Draza just because you save a few yanks it doesn't excuse the fact that his forces slaughtered non Serbs. Why is there more Jews in today's Croatia than Serbia ?.
(Gesi, 5 January 2016 11:17)
And here I thought Muslims don’t drink. Well I’m proven wrong.
Nope. It seems you choose to pick only the news favouring you. Let me give you a little context. Ushtria Çlirimtare e Kosovës was seen in the beginning of the war as Terrorist organisation because of its guerilla tactic (Like ETA or IRA). Later Ushtria Çlirimtare e Kosovës sat at the negotiation table in Rambouillet and was recognised as official Militia(Nato) or Army(Government of Kosovo) and Nato Partner during the War.
At the end of the day it doesnt even matter anymore because as their name says, they fought for the liberation of Kosovo and appearently they succeded. No Serb police, NO serb army, No serb officials. Mission accomplished I would say.
If you really want to talk about events, you cannot pick one single article, you need to look at the developement. My point is, if you use a source as credible then you have to accept this source even if it doesnt fit your believes anymore. You cannot flip flop the whole time. Thats called integrity.
I like how Serbs on this thread use American sources to prove their point at the same time refuse and demonize the exact same sources when it comes to everything that happend in the 90ies. An uninvolved person would call this schizophrenic but who am I to judge, right.
Pathetic! At least have some Dignity. Already looking forward to someone trying to explain this to me.
Very easy. These are western documents that prove the point and since your lot only believes in western sources we use them.
I’ve seen Albanians use non-western sources to substantiate their argument.
Then why dont you believe the same sources when it comes to everything that happened since 1981? Double-Standards or ignorance?
(Gjon Marku, 5 January 2016 10:18)
The article relates to Stepinac and reasons why SPC has sought an inquiry about this man’s activities during WW2 and then Draza Mihajlovic was raised by someone posting as Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49 and that is how discussion evolved.
All documentation regarding either men is prior to 1981. It’s not a choice it’s a fact.
Its not a matter of not believing as there are plenty of truthful events documented after 1981. The real problem is 1990 onwards. A well-known example is the “weapons of mass destruction in Iraq”.
Sounds very strange when peoples who mudded themselves in cooperation with the NAZI try to accuse Serbs as the only enemy NAZY on the Balkans of the sins of those collaborationist peoples. We all know that Serbs/Montenegrins made 90% of the partisan forces in the region and that they were almost the only ones who resisted the Nazi in Europe for long 4 years while he rest joined them only in 1944-45. Of course not Shqiptars sucked the Nazi and not all the Croats were buried near Stalingrad but those were only exclusions from the rule. Meanwhile the Serbs conducted a total and national war. Next active were the Greeks. But what do we have here today ? Some shameless trolls born thanks to the Serbian partisans now bark at their saviors. You will never admit that your ancestors were as dirty cowards as you are because it's a genetic disease. But please do not try to persuade us that black was white because we know the truth. You may glorify your bastards because you have no one else to glorify. And possibly Vatican will support you because you were brothers in arms with Vatican and with your Hitler.
The article relates to Stepinac and reasons why SPC has sought an inquiry about this man’s activities during WW2 and then Draza Mihajlovic was raised by someone posting as Vojvodina,
(sj, 5 January 2016 10:57) SJ your Orthodox greater Serb garb religion is no better. It is the usual the pretentious spiritually dead garb. Leading the people in to hell as usual http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1059192.html by pulling the wool over their eyes. Like Jesus said of them Mat 23:15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Priests, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. On a brighter note Croatia's tourism http://www.total-croatia-news.com/travel/2009-germans-top-visitors-as-central-dalmatia-records-bumper-2015 is is on a ever bigger upward trajectory. This year our dear Russian friends will be coming in huge droves to very beautiful peaceful Croatia. With the Middle East, North Africa and Turkey off to Russians.
You make good points but I disagree on some topics. UQK was declared by Serb Government a terrorist group, Int. community reacted based on that, until the truth was revealed. Political shifts happen for a reason.
I dont wish to paint every serb a schizo, because I know for a fact that not all serbs agree with the government point of view when it comes to Kosovo. Serbia made a lot of mistakes in the past but the biggest mistake was to deny and continue to deny the commited crimes. Serbia should have got rid of the nationalist like Germany after WWII. Accept defeat, full admission of guilt and reparation. Thats how real reconciliation works.
ICTY is Serbias Nürnberg Prozess. No matter what changes, that wont change. Of corse Serbia wants to forget, I dont blame you for that. Most citizens of Serbia had no or less impact on the events since the 90ies. I get that. The problem is that Croats, Bosniaks and Kosovars were all affected by that terror regime. We cant nor do we want to forget because there are many people who died. Forgetting would mean we would have to forget about them too. Thats just not possible.
The very concept of the Roman church giving the title of 'Saint' is an invention and a bit of a stupidity. It is not a biblical concept and the whole administrative structure of popes, bishops and priests is just an invention of man.
So let's get this in perspective.
Silly hats, silly jobs and silly titles.
Even the concept of faith seems to be a bit of a silliness. God was a brilliant invention of the ancients to try to explain the universe. What amazes me is that brains are so slow to move on and adjust to the inevitable conclusion that that 'guess' is no longer a necessary explanation.
Stepanic was associated with the bloody birth of a fascist state - why the Roman church might want to associate with that seems to have something in common with the church's evil (and non-biblical) historical praising of witch burning or justifying the tortures of the inquisition.
Perhaps they have realised that (at last) and are looking for a way out.
Pres Truman gave Mihailovich the Legion of Merit (highest award given to a foreign national) upon recommendation of Gen Dwight Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the American Allied Forces (and future American Pres)
See links below
Pres Truman Medal
http://kingdom-of-yugoslavia-in-ww2.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/0032-Trumanov-orden-Drazi2.jpg
Did the patriarch also mention how he supported the rehabilitation of Serbian war criminals, such as Draza Mihajlovic? I think that would really put the letter into context :)
(Vojvodina, 4 January 2016 14:49)
What context is that? Will it ever get into Albano/Ustashi heads that Mihajlovic was on the side of the allies against the Nazis and their Ustahi brotherhood in WW2?
The question put forward to the High Court of Serbia asked if Mihajlovic was given a fair trial after his capture and the obvious answer was NO. It was a stitch up from the start by Tito and his band of semi-literate thugs.
I am glad there is a commission of inquiry into Stepinac and if they find there is no case to answer and he is clear, then the Catholic Church can canonise Stepinac and his pets if they like, but if not then it would be very embarrassing to make him a saint then turn around and demote him.
The URL's I provided were from an America that I grew up in that is markedly different from the one that took place from the very undignified President Clinton who's list of policy disasters is to great to list in 1500 characters.
Is that too difficult for you to understand?
America will be great again as soon as it clears up the policy diasasters of the pathetic and impeached Clinton Presidency.
The URL's provided were from an America I grew up in that is markedly different from the undignified ClintonIan America who's list of policy disasters is to great to list in 1500 characters.
(factman, 5 January 2016 15:26)
I checked your sources. The oldest is from 2008. What exactely are you talking about? Because I`m almost certain you didnt live during WWII. FAIL!
Oh, these catholic Albos, no matter how soundly people kick their asses, they are always there, stuck in the Serbian websites. Gjon you entertainer, how do you dare to leave a comment on this topic? And you know how soundly the ortho-communists kicked your predecessors' asses in Yugoslavia, Albania and Kosovo, right? Ideally, we have never quit and will never quit. Got it Gjon? Ashtu de, bravo, the peace be with you, cathos. And go entertain cathos in catho websites once in a while for God's sake!
@gjon, sure it is not the only article favouring my point, but all one needs is to show one counter example to your premise: you're welcome. the larger point is that the organizations leading kosova were formerly identified as terrorist organizations, with links to larger more internationally recognized ones.
your stance is that since the opinions and political tides have shifted that that alone is enough to absolve the terrorists as what they are. these political shifts happen at a geologic pace, but when they do, they are earth shattering for those on the fault line.
as the serbs about how political allies are easily washed away. a mere 70 years ago it was serbia and serbia alone that was allied with the western world. it was croatia, bosnia and albania (with their kosovo attachment) that were the enemies of the west.
times changed, and times will continue to change.
you falsly wish to paint every serb as being schizo, but here you are, trying to argue the early 90s documentation from interpol, post 90s analysis by top military brass, and larger policing organizations, like a serb would argue the hauge tribunals level of fairness.
hey, serbs made their beds. but don't pretend that because today someone wants to forget a past, that tomorrow it won't be remembered.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Priests, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
==========================
He was talking about your lot not the Orthodox. We have never had priests and nuns killing innocent children in our churches and concentration camps set up especially for children with their own hands.
So think that it applies to us if it makes you sleep easier at night.
To Leonard,
You will find that Russian's are buying up house ,Apartments and will be holidaying in Greece.
P's I know that for a fact because ,I seen them with my own eyes.
Wrong again. The international community did not rely on just the Serbian government’s information. They have their intelligence services and it’s from these sources that UQK were declared a terrorist group. In fact Thaci was on Interpol’s most wanted list until the US converted him to freedom and democracy.
Serbs don’t care about any reconciliation with Albanians. The west does not care about you so why should we? Have they removed all that depleted uranium in southern Kosovo? NO.
The ICTY is a JOKE. The entire world knows it and laughs at them. Especially after Seselj who was held for years with no charges then let go all of a sudden LOL. Then we have two that were investigated and no charges brought against them and now they want to prosecute them.
You have no idea what they have done to the international justice system.
You know Serbs will not sleep well because Albanians will not forget. Please grow up and stop writing such drivel.
The establishment of the ICTY is one thing but the running of that organisation is totally another. It’s the “judicial” component that has made it a three ring circus not the UN, Serbia or Russia.
The ICTY is the laughing stock in most countries as its judiciary are incapable of running a traffic court in their own countries and some are barely qualified as legal practitioners. The Nuremberg trials were something totally different to the ITCY.
Russia was incapable of vetoing anything at the time the ICTY was established. It was do what you’re told or no loans from the IMF. Russia was broke.
Once the ICTY was established it can go on forever provided someone funds it. Russia, China or Serbia cannot stop it.
If the ICTY is “legit” then I suggest that we replace your court system with the ICTY and see if you like to have hearsay and rumour used as legitimate means of conviction. Now that’s fair.
Operation Halyard
513 US Airmen who were downed by German Nazi’s were rescued and protected by Draza Mihailovich personally and his men. If Draza and his Chetniks were Nazi’s or fascists, then why did they save these men from the real Nazi’s?
CBS Evening News Bronze Star
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/bronze-star-awarded-to-unsung-wwii-hero/
Great Rescues of WW2
https://books.google.com/books?id=6WRN-SoDTBgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Craughwell,+Thomas+J.+Great+Rescues+of+World+War+II&source=bl&ots=DzmMT5w76-&sig=xJa0ZKJ2E6k09TFGi6npMdVAsPA&hl=sr&ei=KAS-TL32CoOYOvzYxB4&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false
@marku, what's really funny, funnier than serbian schizophrenia is albanian. almost as a consensus most of our albanian brethren on this site support every thing that the west says, except that they disagree with the original, and still valid western assessment of the kla (uck - as you may know them), as being a terrorist organization, one that is funded by al quaeda.
funny how nato and western allies conveniently are not being honest in those cases, but are in others...
there is no point in discussions when people choose to close their minds to things. you've pointed that out about serbs (and you aren't very wrong), but you didn't have it in you to reflect upon yourself and your own.
The URL's provided were from an America I grew up in that is markedly different from the undignified ClintonIan America who's list of policy disasters is to great to list in 1500 characters.
America will eventually clear up the policy diasasters of the pathetic, undignified, immoral, and impeached Clinton Presidency because it is a great country and all great countries eventually right past wrongs.
I'll make sure to send those URL's at that time too.
America will eventually clear up the policy diasasters of the pathetic, undignified, immoral, and impeached Clinton Presidency because it is a great country and all great countries eventually right past wrongs.
(factman, 5 January 2016 15:26)
Yup, that great country righted the wrong and declared Clinton not guilty for the alleged crimes he was incorrectly impeached for :)
Germany and its Axis allies invaded and dismembered Yugoslavia in April 1941 and endorsed the so-called Independent State of Croatia by the fanatically nationalist, fascist, separatist, and terrorist Ustaša organization on April 10, 1941.
Ustaša authorities erected numerous concentration camps in Croatia between 1941 and 1945.
The largest was the Jasenovac complex where the Ustaša murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 - 1945.
The Croat authorities also murdered between 320,000 and 340,000 ethnic Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia during the period of Ustaša rule; more than 30,000 Croatian Jews were killed either in Croatia or at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Between 1941 - 1943, Croat authorities deported Jews to Jasenovac and shot many at the nearby killing sites of Granik and Gradina
Croat authorities permitted Germans to transfer most of Croatia's surviving Jews (about 7,000), to Auschwitz.
***** The research mentions that 5 camps existed, but only gives estimates for one: Jasenovac
***** So I guess since Serbs were Nazi's they supported these acts. How preposterous!
Lenny you have to take something for that problem otherwise those voices will not go away.
Kroatia has to stop counting people that only pass through that country as tourists. I have to remind you Lenny that Krovatia has sanctions on Russia and Russians no come to Ustashaland.
If Serbs were Nazi's and fascists during WW2 (as some below say)
(factman, 6 January 2016 04:00)
Well, some Serb, not all of them (always according to the same sources you provided)... Similarly to some Albanian who were Nazi's and fascists... similarly to some French who were Nazi's and fascists and so on. Unfortunately, few countries in Europe, if any, were free of any Nazi's and fascists during WW2.
@ gesi (or should i say guessy)...
croatia: 495
serbia: 578
seems maths aren't your strongest point. or perhaps its reading, or perhaps its research, but in reality it is laziness... 15 seconds and the magic of the interwebs... easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy... if you're going to make stuff up, don't make up tripe that can oh, so ever easily be dug up and presented to you.
you falsly wish to paint every serb as being schizo, but here you are, trying to argue the early 90s documentation from interpol, post 90s analysis by top military brass, and larger policing organizations, like a serb would argue the hauge tribunals level of fairness
(slapchop, 5 January 2016 17:40)
Well, the difference is that facts established BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT by a UN Court on behalf of the international community as a whole are much stronger than "facts" established by, say, analysis of some top military brass.
Otherwise I don't see a reason why to not use, say, CIA's Factbook to establish facts. But, I'm afraid, that would be a heresy for the most patriotic of Serbs.
Yup, that great country righted the wrong and declared Clinton not guilty for the alleged crimes he was incorrectly impeached for :)
*****
You are an ignorant person.
Stick to what you know.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
That's really entertaining considering what you write next :)
----------
The Congress of the USA impeached President Clinton.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
The above is an ignorant comment. The US House of Representatives impeached President Clinton, NOT the Congress. For your information, the Congress in the US is composed of the House of Representatives and the Senate.
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Who exactly found him not guilty? Where? What date? What court? Why was it incorrect? The Congress of thew USA says it was not incorrect.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
The US Senate, which is empowered by the US Constitution to try impeachment charges raised by the House, found President Clinton not guilty of the impeachment charges in Washington D.C., on 12th February 1999.
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Please enlighten us. Please. We all wait with bated breath.
Loser.
(factman, 6 January 2016 16:07)
I hope now that you are enlightened and I'm really sorry that you had to wait with bated breath - I hope you did not have any health complications because of that. I'm sure though few other members of these forums, if any, were as ignorant as you to wait with bated breath the revealing of such easily verifiable facts :)
The establishment of the ICTY is one thing but the running of that organisation is totally another.
Once the ICTY was established it can go on forever provided someone funds it. Russia, China or Serbia cannot stop it.
(sj, 6 January 2016 12:02)
Well, according to the UN, Theodor Meron (so much hated by the most patriotic of Serbs) who run that organization from 2003 to 2005 and from 2011 to 2015 has been approved by Russia, not once, but several times, the last of which was in 2010 when Russia approved the extension of his term as an ICTY judge. Meron would not be there today if Russia did not want it. The same goes for the rest of the judges.
But, obviously the CE of the B92 forums is totally correct that Serbia cannot stop it because Serbia does not have a veto power in the UNSC.
Well, some Serb, not all of them (always according to the same sources you provided)... Similarly to some Albanian who were Nazi's and fascists... similarly to some French who were Nazi's and fascists and so on. Unfortunately, few countries in Europe, if any, were free of any Nazi's and fascists during WW2.
(icj1, 7 January 2016 03:08)
Not "some", most Albanians were fascists as were Italians.
One big difference, Serbia and France did not declare war on the US, Albanian, Croatia, Romania and others did.
Clinton as not cleared of impeachment. Impeachment stays with you forever.
You are also morally bankrupt. You continue to say he was improperly impeached. Yet on the count of PERJURY the vote was 50 for and 50 against.
Finally, Impeachment is a perogative of the US House of Reps, not the Senate. So to them your statement is laughable. But they probably understand tht due to your role as B92 CP.
Clinton was not found innocent of impeachment. Show me some legal record that says that. Again, we wait with bated breath.
Maybe you were absent that day in school?
Clinton's record will always say he was impeached. Period. Full Stop,
Many people are incorrectly accused of crimes they did not commit and are then found not guilty. So, not sure what is the point you are trying to make. A person accused of something and found not guilty of that charge is no worse than a person never accused of something.
==================
You are wrong. Clinton was impeached. Full stop. That fact never changes.
You are correct when you say he was found not guilty of the crimes he was accused of.
However, the impeachment remains. It does not go away (as you falsely write in order to deceive the forum participants in your role as CP.
Your comment is irrelevant. ICTY has an UN mandat. Established after UN Security Council, Resolution 827 (1993). http://www.refworld.org/docid/3b00f21b1c.html
Serbia is UN Member, they could try to fight ICTY if it was unjust. They wont.
Russia has a Veto right, therfore they could have prevented and can still stop ICTY. They wont.
The reason why neither Russia nor your Government fights ICTY iiiiiiiiiiis.... Hold your panties.... wait... almost there... its legit. Badum tss.
The Congress of the USA impeached President Clinton (although, yes, you are correct, I should have written "House").
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Ok, good you have started to make some progress. That means that the other thing you wrote that "everything [I] say is rubbish" is also incorrect, because, at least, one thing I said was not rubbish.
----------
this doesn't change the fact that Clinton was impeached. Past tense. Accomplished fact. Done deal. Cannot be reversed.
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Ok, and I said the same thing. I quote again what I already wrote (also in past tense): "The US House of Representatives impeached President Clinton".
----------
You are confused or deliberately muddy the water by saying the lack of conviction removes the impeachment (Clinton was found not guilty of the impeachment charges that the House raised). It does not.
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Nope, you are writing a false statement, again. I did not say "the lack of conviction removes the impeachement". You said that.
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Clinton was indeed impeached. Done deal. Accomplished fact. Cannot be reversed. As such, his presidency was dis-reputed
(factman, 8 January 2016 05:52)
Many people are incorrectly accused of crimes they did not commit and are then found not guilty. So, not sure what is the point you are trying to make. A person accused of something and found not guilty of that charge is no worse than a person never accused of something.
In your role as CP of the B92 forums, you never really tell the entire story, but only that little portion which supports your position.
Bill Clinton was deliberately not convicted. That would have been difficult on the nation. Instead he was "run over the coals."
Innocent? Not guilty? Wrongfully accused?
April 1999: 2 months after being acquitted, Clinton was cited by Federal District Judge Susan Webber Wright for civil contempt of court for his "willful failure" to obey her repeated orders to testify truthfully in the Paula Jones sexual harassment lawsuit. For this citation, Clinton was assessed a $90,000 fine, and the matter was referred to the Arkansas Supreme Court to see if disciplinary action would be appropriate.Clinton entered into an out-of-court settlement by agreeing to pay Jones $850,000.
January 2001: On the day before leaving office, Clinton agreed to a 5-year suspension of his Arkansas law license as part of an agreement with the independent counsel to end the investigation. Based on this state bar suspension, Clinton was automatically suspended from the U.S. Supreme Court bar and allowed 40 days to appeal an otherwise-automatic disbarment; Clinton chose to resign during the appeals period.
You are morally bankrupt in continuing to say he was rightfully found innocent of PERJURY by "winning" a 50-50 vote.
"The Croatian daily further writes that the letter proposed to the pope, via Cardinal Kurt Koch who is in charge of relations with other Christians, that the result of the Commission's work should include, among other things, 'an act of purification of historical memory.'"
"An act of purification of historical memory."
What could he mean by this? I would hope that it is a suggestion that the Catholic Church might go on the record as apologizing for its believers who committed atrocities in its name. And certainly rejecting esteeming its own spiritual authority there who instigated these atrocities as a Catholic saint.
That might patch up history, but what would it do to alter the course of history at the present moment?
Everything you say is rubbish
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Haha that's what children say when they lose an argument :) But anyway I'm more than open for you to take one of the things I said and explain why it is rubbish. Entertain us a bit...
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You are clearly confused
President Clinton was impeached. Period.
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Yes, and that's what I said, I quote my prior post "The US House of Representatives impeached President Clinton". So not sure what confusion you are talking about!
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See NY Times (writing in the past tense as an accomplished fact).
[link].
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Yes and thanks for providing the link that supports MY point that "Clinton was impeached on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice by a divided HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES" not by CONGRESS as you incorrectly stated. That's what your own link says :)
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He was acquitted by the Senate. But the Senate has no bearing on the US House. Two different legislative bodies.
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
It does, because according to the US consitution, the House makes the impeachment charges (similarly to what a prosecutor does with an indictement) but it is the Senate that acts as a Court to conduct a trial for those impeachment charges to determine if the President is guilty of those charges, and the Senate (the Court in this case) ruled that Clinton was not guilty of the impeachment charges that the House raised.
Loser. Go tell your story to non-Americans.
(factman, 7 January 2016 17:02)
Mate, there is no need to lose it - just do some research before writing. You wrote something that is incorrect and that's OK, all humans make errors sometime, but not all of them act like children when caught stating something that is incorrect. You screaming "rubbish", "loser" and yadda, yadda, yadda is not going to change the fact that what you wrote was factually incorrect as proven even by your own evidence!
Factman wrote: The Congress of the USA impeached President Clinton (although, yes, you are correct, I should have written "House").
Nevertheless, this doesn't change the fact that Clinton was impeached. Past tense. Accomplished fact. Done deal. Cannot be reversed.
You are confused or deliberately muddy the water by saying the lack of conviction removes the impeachment (Clinton was found not guilty of the impeachment charges that the House raised). It does not.
Clinton was indeed impeached. Done deal. Accomplished fact. Cannot be reversed. As such, his presidency was dis-reputed, and his biography will always say so now and forever.
Definiton of impeachment:
Impeachment is a formal process in which an official is accused of unlawful activity, the outcome of which, may include the removal of that official from office as well as criminal or civil punishment.
The House must first pass articles of impeachment, which constitute the formal allegation or allegations. Upon passage, the defendant has been "impeached".
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment
PS: The vote on PERJURY was 50-50 (not exactly a glowing endorsement of his morality). To categorize that as "incorrectly impeached" is a morally bankrupt statement by you.
You of course will muddy the central point by making fun of the Wikipedia source. How slippery of you :)
You are clearly confusd and morally bankrupt.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Hahaha... why?! If that's because you say so, who cares lol
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Clinton as not cleared of impeachment. Impeachment stays with you forever.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
As even yourself wrote, Clinton was found not guilty of the crimes he was accused of in the impeachment. So, if you define "not cleared" as "found not guilty" of course, you are correct. It's all a matter of how you define something :)
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You are also morally bankrupt. You continue to say he was improperly impeached.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
I did not say that "he was improperly impeached". 5th false statement that you've made so far... lol
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Yet on the count of PERJURY the vote was 50 for and 50 against.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Yup, and that means that he was not guilty of that count. Thanks for providing the evidence :)
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Finally, Impeachment is a perogative of the US House of Reps, not the Senate. So to them your statement is laughable. But they probably understand tht due to your role as B92 CP.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
I did not say that the impeachment is a prerogative of the Senate. But trying the impeachment charges and adjudging if they are correct or not, IS a prerogative of the Senate seating as a Court of Impeachment because the US Constitution says so, whether you like it or not.
Clinton was not found innocent of impeachment. Show me some legal record that says that. Again, we wait with bated breath.
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Again, I am very sorry for you waiting with bated breath for a second time; hopefully you did not have to go to the hospital for doing that for a couple of days lol
However, before I show you the legal records of Clinton being found innocent of impeachment, you have to first show the legal records of impeachment :)
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Maybe you were absent that day in school?
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Yup, thanks God, I was certainly absent to listen to your teachings hehehe
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Clinton's record will always say he was impeached. Period. Full Stop,
CP = Chief Propagandist
(factman, 8 January 2016 14:46)
Of course, as it will also say that the allegations made in the impeachment were not proven. Just because incorrect allegations are made against a person, does not make that person a worse person.
But, if you want to feel a worse person just because somebody may make incorrect allegations against you, please feel free to do so! I totally understand that not everybody has the same self-respect standards.
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