Vulin: ICTY proved that it is political court

Of course it's a political court and there can be no reconciliation in the Balkans with the continued inquisition of the Serbs who only wanted to stay in a federated Yugoslavia while Croatia,Bosnia and others created a a civil war.

A new "threshold" or "test" has been created by the ICTY prosecution stating that refutable proof is not required in the aid and abetting of para-military groups that committed war crimes in the former Yugoslavia. If so, then Gotovina, Ganic, Siladzic, Thaci, Haradnaj, Oric need to be retried but in reality, have far exceeded guilt compared to Stanisic or Simatovic.

Tito's Communist Prosecutor Milos Minic and the show trials of Yugoslavia after WWII are a model of legality compared to the Hague farce.

Until all countries are signatory to an international legal system including the US, no international court of law can be considered legally binding.

"the Serbs who only wanted to stay in a federated Yugoslavia while Croatia,Bosnia and others created a a civil war."

Is that sarcasm?
The Serbs wanted to keep Croatia in Yugoslavia so they thought the best way to do this was to kill Croats?
The Serbs wanted to keep Bosnia in Yugoslavia so they thought the best way to do this was to kill Bosnians?
The Serbs wanted to keep Kosovo in Serbia so they thought the best way to do this was to start executing civilians?

What scores does Mr Vulin believe that the ICTY has to settle? The Tribunal is a constantly changing group of individuals who would probably much rather be somewhere else than The Hague. I've never believed the tribunal to be particularly effective or competent but that is different from believing that it somehow has a vendetta against Serbs. As Mr Vulin admits, he has never rated the ICTY so no-one should be surprised that he isn't happy now. A written document saying that someone committed a crime, as Vulin refers to in Oric's case, is not irrefutable evidence it is simply a piece of paper that needs to be considered along with all the other evidence. He is simplifying a very complicated process for his own political ends. Personally, I believe Mr Oric, who I have had the misfortune to meet, to be a nasty piece of work but I cannot say is he guilty of the crimes with which he was charged as I was not been party to the proceedings and didn't see or hear all the evidence. The same goes for those now being sent for retrial.

Says Vulin who few days ago received Serb war criminal like a hero at the airport :)

Well, you can believe all this rhetoric, or think about things a bit. For instance, what would be the alternative? For instance, should they have set up a trial for Mladic in Belgrade upon the announcement of his indictment in 1995? Can you imagine how that would have gone?

Milosevic wasn't indicted until 1999, the same year that Tudjman died. We know that an indictment was being prepared against Tudjman, too. Izetbegovic would probably have been indicted also, but like Tudjman, died before the process could be completed.

A lot of lower level cases against all sides were transferred to local courts. Sorry if those haven't panned out well - maybe that's what happens when you leave things to the locals.

The ICTY ain't perfect, but what do Serbs contribute financially to see that it's better? What do the Russians and Chinese contribute to the budget? You want something to be better, invest in an improved system.

Witnesses composed of Simatovic's own troops, the Frankies, have testified against him.
This is enough to retry him. More eye witnesses will step forward before the trial begins.

Is that Idiotic?

The Croats wanted to to leave Yugoslavia so they thought the best way to do this was to kill Serbs?

The Bosnian Muslims wanted to keep Bosnia in Yugoslavia so they thought the best way to do this was to kill Serbs?

The Albanians (No such nationality as "Kosovars" )wanted to leave Serbia so so they thought the best way to do this was to start killing Serb civilians and deporting Kosovo Serbs even since Tito seized power? UCK and KLA started executing Serb civilians in 1997? Is that sarcasm?
(Is that sarcasm, 17 December 2015 19:09)

"What else but political can I call a court which can acquit (Ramus) Haradinaj and Naser Oric, despite having written evidence that these people killed other human beings with their own hands"

Well, according to the UN, there was no such evidence, so this so-called Minister can be ignored on that.
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"quash its own verdict without any legal basis"

Does this so-called Minister come from Moon? Isn't he aware that Serbia's own judicial system rutinely quashes its own verdicts when an appeals court decides that a lower court erred in facts and/or in law. Otherwise, what's the point of having appeals courts?! As for the legal basis, this so-called Minister should read the Appeals Chamber reasoning
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"I have never had a high opinion of the Hague tribunal and now it's even lower"

That's a good thing... I'd be concerned if somebody with the IQ of this so-called Minister had a high opinion of UN's ICTY. No wonder Serbia is a failed state since it's governed by people like this so-called Minister!
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"I cannot understand that the court in the Hague recognized that crimes had been committed in the area of former Yugoslavia without anyone committing a single crime against Serbs - because that's what the verdicts say," Vulin remarked"

That's just a lie... no verdict has ever said that! The astonishing part is that many Serbs just buy what this so-called Minister says without questioning or checking the facts

Isthatsarcasm -
You KNOW thats not true...stop playing that game! Srbs didn't just DECIDE to kill Hrvati & Bosanci just like Bosanci & Hrvati didn't just DECIDE to kill Srbs. If you had just an inkling of logical brain, and if you are FROM Jugoslavia, you KNOW the way things went down...stop playing stupid. Srbija wanted Jugo to stay together as a federation and when Hrvatska & Bosna took the western bait to seperate, the Srbs IN Hrvatska & Bosna did not want to live under a government they believed dangerous to them, Ustash & Muslim! Hrvat & Bosanac had the same fear of living under a government they believed dangerous to them, Chetniks! It was best for ALL Jugoslavs to NOT have been baited, hooked and mounted on a wall as a trophy by western powers and outside influence. Once the door was opened, it was everybody for themselves...Kosovo is another story. Even Hrvatska & Bosna police would have the self respect to try to catch murderer's who were slaughtering innocent people in order to provoke a reaction from the government..once they did, the dogs of war were let loose and then you have what u had. Cut the crap and call it the way it is. I work with "older" people from ALL over Jugoslavia and they tell me the way it was, not to mention I'm from there...so cut your shit out!! You're not THAT ignorant!!!It would be great id the Srbs were at fault for EVERYTHING and you could sleep at night, but reality is others were JUST as guilty! Deal with it and move on!! Best wishes!

But AY, what is the alternative? Any court system is comprised of human beings. I defy you to show me one system on earth that isn't flawed. Everywhere, there are judges with racial, religious and sexual bias. There are judges in any system who are mainly there to collect a paycheck and to be able to call themselves judges. Judges everywhere who are bought by special interests. Where do you think the course of justice would play out any better? You're like an opposition politician who criticizes the work of the majority, but who offers no better proposal.

To the other guy calling me naive, well, I've been called far worse. And perhaps I am, but what do you call any person who buys into these silly Serbian narratives?

The alternative is a system with these minimal requirements:

1. judges who have past experience in criminal law (there is no such requirement at the ICTY)
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

The ICTY statute requires that "the permanent and ad litem judges shall be persons of high moral character, impartiality and integrity who possess the qualifications required in their respective countries for appointment to the highest judicial
offices. In the overall composition of the Chambers and sections of the Trial Chambers, due account shall be taken of the experience of the judges in criminal law, international law, including international humanitarian law and human rights law."

Now, I understand that you accept nothing short of a statute saying what you want and exactly as you said it, but the above sounds good enough to me and to the international community.

Are you requesting a judge with higher qualifications than what's needed (by law or custom) for the highest judicial office in his/her country?! Is there any current or former ICTY judge that you deem unqualified?
-----------

2. an independent prosecutorial branch (not influenced by the ICTY presidency).
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

Of course and according to the ICTY statute "the Prosecutor shall be appointed by the Security Council" and "shall act independently". So the prosecutor's boss is the UNSC, not the ICTY presidency.

3. an independent investigative branch with a directive to investigate crimes against all ethnic groups. (it was ridiculous to listen to testimony from ICTY experts who were instructed by the prosecutor NOT TO investigate crimes against one ethnic group).
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

of course and according to the ICTY statute "the Prosecutor shall be responsible for the investigation and prosecution of persons responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia since 1 January 1991'. So there is no directive NOT TO investigate crimes against any ethnic groups (the only exclusions are temporal or geographic).
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These are simple and straight forward criteria.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

I totally agree and as you can see from the ICTY Statute they have been taken into account already.
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You should be asking why such criteria were not implemented?
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

Well, they were implemented as shown above, so it's really a moot question :)
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Who's most frequently involved in international conflicts and who will benefit most from the establishment of an imbecilic system of international criminal law?
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

I guess Russia, since it was Russia that PROPOSED and APPROVED ICTY and its judges, among others.

(icj1, 21 December 2015 06:55) Is there any current or former ICTY judge that you deem unqualified?
---

Blind ICTY apologists expose the shallowness of their arguments by regurgitating the empty words of the ICTY statute which have been ignored by the UN and the ICTY. The list of unqualified dimwits exceeds the character limitation of this forum. I'll provide a few brief examples: Bakone Moloto's legal background is with land claims in South Africa; he NEVER litigated or judged a criminal trial. György Szénási from hungary was a career diplomat without any practical judicial experience.

A review article in G.J.Intl. Law (2011, 3:1011) accurately detailed the deficiencies:

"The truth is that many of the judges who have sat in the Trial and Appeals Chambers at the ICTY have never had any prior experience as judges. Indeed, many of them have never had any experience as lawyers or prosecutors. Several of the ICTY’s judges, prior to their appointment, had no knowledge of how criminal trials are actually conducted, no experience with criminal law, and no knowledge of the procedural issues associated with any of the phases of a simple criminal trial, let alone an international criminal case of enormous complexity. In other words, many of the judges appointed by the UN (after lobbying, incentive offerings or horse-trading) had no actual experience."

(icj1, 21 December 2015 06:55) Of course and according to the ICTY statute "the Prosecutor shall be appointed by the Security Council" and "shall act independently". So the prosecutor's boss is the UNSC, not the ICTY presidency.

---

If the prosecutor is indeed independent, then why did ICTY president Meron send memos requesting the termination of prosecutor Del Ponte? Certainly such an obvious conflict and scandal from the president should have resulted in his immediate removal. Meron and his manipulations are sufficeint evidence of a politically-, rather than legally-based, farcical institution.

Link: https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/03THEHAGUE1827_a.html

(Icj1) ...according to the ICTY statute "the Prosecutor shall be responsible for the investigation and prosecution of persons responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia since 1 January 1991'. So there is no directive NOT TO investigate crimes against any ethnic groups (the only exclusions are temporal or geographic).
------

Your reference to the statute is irrelevant. The directive was not in the statute but rather originated with the OTP. Evidence of the selective investigation of crimes against one ethnic group and the exclusion of investigation of crimes against other ethnic group is part of the ICTY record and was provided by sworn testimony from the OTP's own investigator.

(Nenad, 17 December 2015 20:36) The ICTY ain't perfect, but what do Serbs contribute financially to see that it's better? What do the Russians and Chinese contribute to the budget? You want something to be better, invest in an improved system.

----

The major current investor does not want the system changed, and vigorously prevents the improvement or establishment of an impartial system of international justice. Please ask the innocent Medecins-Sans-Frontieres Afghan victims how they are fairing in their quest for justice.

As for the composition of the ICTY bench, please note the laughable example of cherry-picked land claims clerks and who NEVER tried, prosecuted or adjudicated a criminal trial that were incredibly assigned as criminal judges to the ICTY. The dimwits impersonating judges at the ICTY have irreversibly damaged international criminal law. There is no quantity of investment from any third party that can change this premeditated assault on justice.

Nenad, you really believe that "kangaroo court" would prosecute Tudjman and Izetbegovic? It's imposibble! everyone knew that they waited them untill they die. You are most naive guy on internet, can't believe someone's so naive.

After reading the comment's, why can't people admit that the Croatian Nazis have been trying to seperate from Yugoslavia since 1960's,and even tried in the 1970's to sent idiot's from Australia to cause a terrorist attack.
The same with the Islamic terrorist the Albanian's, tried as well in the 1970's in Kosovo province to try terrorising Serb's.
I for one believe the Croatian have a right to a country,and the Muslim's in Bosnia be sent home to Turkey where they came from.Bosnia then could be divided by Serb's and Croatian's and NO WAR ,would exist! The Albanian's should be sent back to Turkey where they came from 400 years ago.The land should be returned back to Greek and Serb people. Tirana should be part of Greece .The Balkans would be peaceful place.I too can play ,Naim!

(Nenad, 18 December 2015 14:31) But AY, what is the alternative?

---

The alternative is a system with these minimal requirements:

1. judges who have past experience in criminal law (there is no such requirement at the ICTY)
2. an independent prosecutorial branch (not influenced by the ICTY presidency).
3. an independent investigative branch with a directive to investigate crimes against all ethnic groups. (it was ridiculous to listen to testimony from ICTY experts who were instructed by the prosecutor NOT TO investigate crimes against one ethnic group).

These are simple and straight forward criteria.

You should be asking why such criteria were not implemented? Who's most frequently involved in international conflicts and who will benefit most from the establishment of an imbecilic system of international criminal law?

(icj1, 23 December 2015 03:44) Ok, so reference to your requirements is irrelevant too then, because you're saying that regardless of requirements somebody can do whatever he or she wants lol So what you are requesting is utopia :)
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If you wish to continue this exchange, collect your thoughts and rephrase a response with coherent text.


(icj1, 23 December 2015 03:44) Evidence please that the above is a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt. Just because you say so, does not make it a fact beyond reasonable doubt.
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I didn't say so. It's the OTP's own investigator that said so. If you have issues with this fact and conclusion, please send your complaints to the OTP.


(icj1, 23 December 2015 03:44) So you are proving the point that ICTY's prosecutor is independent from its president! Otherwise ICTY's president would just fire the prosecutor instead of sending memos :)
---

Such writings are an anathema in reputable legal systems. A judge's writings about a prosecutor, whose cases he is hearing, should be restricted to the evaluation of evidence presented by the prosecutor. That ICTY apologists blatantly applaud the many extra-judicial and pre-judicial "memos" sent by the President Judge, reinforce the contempt for Justice by both the ICTY and their blind apologists.

Vulin should thank you for acknowledging that ICTY Judges disseminate "memos" concerning the individuals whose cases they adjudicate.

(icj1, 24 December 2015 03:49) As for the writings being an anathema or whatever for a certain Amnesty Yugoslavia, well... who cares... lol

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Most reputable jurists do. I provided you reference to peer reviewed articles from Internatinal Law Journals, reference to discussion forums with Intl Law experts, testimony from the OTPs own witnesses. Your "lols" are an accurate reflection of the laughable farce that defines both the ICTY and their blind apologists.

Your reference to the statute is irrelevant. The directive was not in the statute but rather originated with the OTP.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 22 December 2015 09:02)

Ok, so reference to your requirements is irrelevant too then, because you're saying that regardless of requirements somebody can do whatever he or she wants lol So what you are requesting is utopia :)
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Evidence of the selective investigation [...] is part of the ICTY record and was provided by sworn testimony from the OTP's own investigator.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 22 December 2015 09:02)

Evidence please that the above is a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt. Just because you say so, does not make it a fact beyond reasonable doubt.
----------

If the prosecutor is indeed independent, then why did ICTY president Meron send memos requesting the termination of prosecutor Del Ponte?
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 22 December 2015 05:30)

So you are proving the point that ICTY's prosecutor is independent from its president! Otherwise ICTY's president would just fire the prosecutor instead of sending memos :)
--------------

the empty words of the ICTY statute which have been ignored by the UN and the ICTY
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 22 December 2015 05:11)

Evidence please that the UN and ICTY have ignored the ICTY statute? Just because you say so does not make it true.

Mate, if somebody has told you that you are God and your words are the Gospel, I think you might have been grossly misled...!

Evidence of the selective investigation [...] is part of the ICTY record and was provided by sworn testimony from the OTP's own investigator.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 22 December 2015 09:02)

(icj1, 23 December 2015 03:44) Evidence please that the above is a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt. Just because you say so, does not make it a fact beyond reasonable doubt.

I didn't say so.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 23 December 2015 12:36)

Ok, so it can be ignored then, since it's not a fact established beyond reasonable doubt
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If you wish to continue this exchange, collect your thoughts and rephrase a response with coherent text.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 23 December 2015 12:36)

Sorry mate, but I was quoting your logic. If you wish to make it more coherent, you are more than welcome to do so!
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Such writings are an anathema and [bla bla bla]
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 23 December 2015 12:36)

You stated that "If the prosecutor is indeed independent, then why did ICTY president Meron send memos requesting the termination of prosecutor Del Ponte? ". Your statement proves that ICTY's prosecutor is independent from ICTY's president, otherwise ICTY's president would just fire the prosecutor instead of sending memos.

As for the writings being an anathema or whatever for a certain Amnesty Yugoslavia, well... who cares... lol

Of course it's a political court and there can be no reconciliation in the Balkans with the continued inquisition of the Serbs who only wanted to stay in a federated Yugoslavia while Croatia,Bosnia and others created a a civil war.

A new "threshold" or "test" has been created by the ICTY prosecution stating that refutable proof is not required in the aid and abetting of para-military groups that committed war crimes in the former Yugoslavia. If so, then Gotovina, Ganic, Siladzic, Thaci, Haradnaj, Oric need to be retried but in reality, have far exceeded guilt compared to Stanisic or Simatovic.

Tito's Communist Prosecutor Milos Minic and the show trials of Yugoslavia after WWII are a model of legality compared to the Hague farce.

Until all countries are signatory to an international legal system including the US, no international court of law can be considered legally binding.

"the Serbs who only wanted to stay in a federated Yugoslavia while Croatia,Bosnia and others created a a civil war."

Is that sarcasm?
The Serbs wanted to keep Croatia in Yugoslavia so they thought the best way to do this was to kill Croats?
The Serbs wanted to keep Bosnia in Yugoslavia so they thought the best way to do this was to kill Bosnians?
The Serbs wanted to keep Kosovo in Serbia so they thought the best way to do this was to start executing civilians?

Is that Idiotic?

The Croats wanted to to leave Yugoslavia so they thought the best way to do this was to kill Serbs?

The Bosnian Muslims wanted to keep Bosnia in Yugoslavia so they thought the best way to do this was to kill Serbs?

The Albanians (No such nationality as "Kosovars" )wanted to leave Serbia so so they thought the best way to do this was to start killing Serb civilians and deporting Kosovo Serbs even since Tito seized power? UCK and KLA started executing Serb civilians in 1997? Is that sarcasm?
(Is that sarcasm, 17 December 2015 19:09)

Isthatsarcasm -
You KNOW thats not true...stop playing that game! Srbs didn't just DECIDE to kill Hrvati & Bosanci just like Bosanci & Hrvati didn't just DECIDE to kill Srbs. If you had just an inkling of logical brain, and if you are FROM Jugoslavia, you KNOW the way things went down...stop playing stupid. Srbija wanted Jugo to stay together as a federation and when Hrvatska & Bosna took the western bait to seperate, the Srbs IN Hrvatska & Bosna did not want to live under a government they believed dangerous to them, Ustash & Muslim! Hrvat & Bosanac had the same fear of living under a government they believed dangerous to them, Chetniks! It was best for ALL Jugoslavs to NOT have been baited, hooked and mounted on a wall as a trophy by western powers and outside influence. Once the door was opened, it was everybody for themselves...Kosovo is another story. Even Hrvatska & Bosna police would have the self respect to try to catch murderer's who were slaughtering innocent people in order to provoke a reaction from the government..once they did, the dogs of war were let loose and then you have what u had. Cut the crap and call it the way it is. I work with "older" people from ALL over Jugoslavia and they tell me the way it was, not to mention I'm from there...so cut your shit out!! You're not THAT ignorant!!!It would be great id the Srbs were at fault for EVERYTHING and you could sleep at night, but reality is others were JUST as guilty! Deal with it and move on!! Best wishes!

Well, you can believe all this rhetoric, or think about things a bit. For instance, what would be the alternative? For instance, should they have set up a trial for Mladic in Belgrade upon the announcement of his indictment in 1995? Can you imagine how that would have gone?

Milosevic wasn't indicted until 1999, the same year that Tudjman died. We know that an indictment was being prepared against Tudjman, too. Izetbegovic would probably have been indicted also, but like Tudjman, died before the process could be completed.

A lot of lower level cases against all sides were transferred to local courts. Sorry if those haven't panned out well - maybe that's what happens when you leave things to the locals.

The ICTY ain't perfect, but what do Serbs contribute financially to see that it's better? What do the Russians and Chinese contribute to the budget? You want something to be better, invest in an improved system.

After reading the comment's, why can't people admit that the Croatian Nazis have been trying to seperate from Yugoslavia since 1960's,and even tried in the 1970's to sent idiot's from Australia to cause a terrorist attack.
The same with the Islamic terrorist the Albanian's, tried as well in the 1970's in Kosovo province to try terrorising Serb's.
I for one believe the Croatian have a right to a country,and the Muslim's in Bosnia be sent home to Turkey where they came from.Bosnia then could be divided by Serb's and Croatian's and NO WAR ,would exist! The Albanian's should be sent back to Turkey where they came from 400 years ago.The land should be returned back to Greek and Serb people. Tirana should be part of Greece .The Balkans would be peaceful place.I too can play ,Naim!

Says Vulin who few days ago received Serb war criminal like a hero at the airport :)

"What else but political can I call a court which can acquit (Ramus) Haradinaj and Naser Oric, despite having written evidence that these people killed other human beings with their own hands"

Well, according to the UN, there was no such evidence, so this so-called Minister can be ignored on that.
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"quash its own verdict without any legal basis"

Does this so-called Minister come from Moon? Isn't he aware that Serbia's own judicial system rutinely quashes its own verdicts when an appeals court decides that a lower court erred in facts and/or in law. Otherwise, what's the point of having appeals courts?! As for the legal basis, this so-called Minister should read the Appeals Chamber reasoning
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"I have never had a high opinion of the Hague tribunal and now it's even lower"

That's a good thing... I'd be concerned if somebody with the IQ of this so-called Minister had a high opinion of UN's ICTY. No wonder Serbia is a failed state since it's governed by people like this so-called Minister!
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"I cannot understand that the court in the Hague recognized that crimes had been committed in the area of former Yugoslavia without anyone committing a single crime against Serbs - because that's what the verdicts say," Vulin remarked"

That's just a lie... no verdict has ever said that! The astonishing part is that many Serbs just buy what this so-called Minister says without questioning or checking the facts

(Nenad, 18 December 2015 14:31) But AY, what is the alternative?

---

The alternative is a system with these minimal requirements:

1. judges who have past experience in criminal law (there is no such requirement at the ICTY)
2. an independent prosecutorial branch (not influenced by the ICTY presidency).
3. an independent investigative branch with a directive to investigate crimes against all ethnic groups. (it was ridiculous to listen to testimony from ICTY experts who were instructed by the prosecutor NOT TO investigate crimes against one ethnic group).

These are simple and straight forward criteria.

You should be asking why such criteria were not implemented? Who's most frequently involved in international conflicts and who will benefit most from the establishment of an imbecilic system of international criminal law?

Witnesses composed of Simatovic's own troops, the Frankies, have testified against him.
This is enough to retry him. More eye witnesses will step forward before the trial begins.

Nenad, you really believe that "kangaroo court" would prosecute Tudjman and Izetbegovic? It's imposibble! everyone knew that they waited them untill they die. You are most naive guy on internet, can't believe someone's so naive.

But AY, what is the alternative? Any court system is comprised of human beings. I defy you to show me one system on earth that isn't flawed. Everywhere, there are judges with racial, religious and sexual bias. There are judges in any system who are mainly there to collect a paycheck and to be able to call themselves judges. Judges everywhere who are bought by special interests. Where do you think the course of justice would play out any better? You're like an opposition politician who criticizes the work of the majority, but who offers no better proposal.

To the other guy calling me naive, well, I've been called far worse. And perhaps I am, but what do you call any person who buys into these silly Serbian narratives?

The alternative is a system with these minimal requirements:

1. judges who have past experience in criminal law (there is no such requirement at the ICTY)
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

The ICTY statute requires that "the permanent and ad litem judges shall be persons of high moral character, impartiality and integrity who possess the qualifications required in their respective countries for appointment to the highest judicial
offices. In the overall composition of the Chambers and sections of the Trial Chambers, due account shall be taken of the experience of the judges in criminal law, international law, including international humanitarian law and human rights law."

Now, I understand that you accept nothing short of a statute saying what you want and exactly as you said it, but the above sounds good enough to me and to the international community.

Are you requesting a judge with higher qualifications than what's needed (by law or custom) for the highest judicial office in his/her country?! Is there any current or former ICTY judge that you deem unqualified?
-----------

2. an independent prosecutorial branch (not influenced by the ICTY presidency).
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

Of course and according to the ICTY statute "the Prosecutor shall be appointed by the Security Council" and "shall act independently". So the prosecutor's boss is the UNSC, not the ICTY presidency.

3. an independent investigative branch with a directive to investigate crimes against all ethnic groups. (it was ridiculous to listen to testimony from ICTY experts who were instructed by the prosecutor NOT TO investigate crimes against one ethnic group).
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

of course and according to the ICTY statute "the Prosecutor shall be responsible for the investigation and prosecution of persons responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia since 1 January 1991'. So there is no directive NOT TO investigate crimes against any ethnic groups (the only exclusions are temporal or geographic).
----------

These are simple and straight forward criteria.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

I totally agree and as you can see from the ICTY Statute they have been taken into account already.
----------

You should be asking why such criteria were not implemented?
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

Well, they were implemented as shown above, so it's really a moot question :)
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Who's most frequently involved in international conflicts and who will benefit most from the establishment of an imbecilic system of international criminal law?
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 19 December 2015 07:00)

I guess Russia, since it was Russia that PROPOSED and APPROVED ICTY and its judges, among others.

What scores does Mr Vulin believe that the ICTY has to settle? The Tribunal is a constantly changing group of individuals who would probably much rather be somewhere else than The Hague. I've never believed the tribunal to be particularly effective or competent but that is different from believing that it somehow has a vendetta against Serbs. As Mr Vulin admits, he has never rated the ICTY so no-one should be surprised that he isn't happy now. A written document saying that someone committed a crime, as Vulin refers to in Oric's case, is not irrefutable evidence it is simply a piece of paper that needs to be considered along with all the other evidence. He is simplifying a very complicated process for his own political ends. Personally, I believe Mr Oric, who I have had the misfortune to meet, to be a nasty piece of work but I cannot say is he guilty of the crimes with which he was charged as I was not been party to the proceedings and didn't see or hear all the evidence. The same goes for those now being sent for retrial.

(Nenad, 17 December 2015 20:36) The ICTY ain't perfect, but what do Serbs contribute financially to see that it's better? What do the Russians and Chinese contribute to the budget? You want something to be better, invest in an improved system.

----

The major current investor does not want the system changed, and vigorously prevents the improvement or establishment of an impartial system of international justice. Please ask the innocent Medecins-Sans-Frontieres Afghan victims how they are fairing in their quest for justice.

As for the composition of the ICTY bench, please note the laughable example of cherry-picked land claims clerks and who NEVER tried, prosecuted or adjudicated a criminal trial that were incredibly assigned as criminal judges to the ICTY. The dimwits impersonating judges at the ICTY have irreversibly damaged international criminal law. There is no quantity of investment from any third party that can change this premeditated assault on justice.

(icj1, 21 December 2015 06:55) Is there any current or former ICTY judge that you deem unqualified?
---

Blind ICTY apologists expose the shallowness of their arguments by regurgitating the empty words of the ICTY statute which have been ignored by the UN and the ICTY. The list of unqualified dimwits exceeds the character limitation of this forum. I'll provide a few brief examples: Bakone Moloto's legal background is with land claims in South Africa; he NEVER litigated or judged a criminal trial. György Szénási from hungary was a career diplomat without any practical judicial experience.

A review article in G.J.Intl. Law (2011, 3:1011) accurately detailed the deficiencies:

"The truth is that many of the judges who have sat in the Trial and Appeals Chambers at the ICTY have never had any prior experience as judges. Indeed, many of them have never had any experience as lawyers or prosecutors. Several of the ICTY’s judges, prior to their appointment, had no knowledge of how criminal trials are actually conducted, no experience with criminal law, and no knowledge of the procedural issues associated with any of the phases of a simple criminal trial, let alone an international criminal case of enormous complexity. In other words, many of the judges appointed by the UN (after lobbying, incentive offerings or horse-trading) had no actual experience."

(icj1, 21 December 2015 06:55) Of course and according to the ICTY statute "the Prosecutor shall be appointed by the Security Council" and "shall act independently". So the prosecutor's boss is the UNSC, not the ICTY presidency.

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If the prosecutor is indeed independent, then why did ICTY president Meron send memos requesting the termination of prosecutor Del Ponte? Certainly such an obvious conflict and scandal from the president should have resulted in his immediate removal. Meron and his manipulations are sufficeint evidence of a politically-, rather than legally-based, farcical institution.

Link: https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/03THEHAGUE1827_a.html

(Icj1) ...according to the ICTY statute "the Prosecutor shall be responsible for the investigation and prosecution of persons responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia since 1 January 1991'. So there is no directive NOT TO investigate crimes against any ethnic groups (the only exclusions are temporal or geographic).
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Your reference to the statute is irrelevant. The directive was not in the statute but rather originated with the OTP. Evidence of the selective investigation of crimes against one ethnic group and the exclusion of investigation of crimes against other ethnic group is part of the ICTY record and was provided by sworn testimony from the OTP's own investigator.

Your reference to the statute is irrelevant. The directive was not in the statute but rather originated with the OTP.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 22 December 2015 09:02)

Ok, so reference to your requirements is irrelevant too then, because you're saying that regardless of requirements somebody can do whatever he or she wants lol So what you are requesting is utopia :)
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Evidence of the selective investigation [...] is part of the ICTY record and was provided by sworn testimony from the OTP's own investigator.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 22 December 2015 09:02)

Evidence please that the above is a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt. Just because you say so, does not make it a fact beyond reasonable doubt.
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If the prosecutor is indeed independent, then why did ICTY president Meron send memos requesting the termination of prosecutor Del Ponte?
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 22 December 2015 05:30)

So you are proving the point that ICTY's prosecutor is independent from its president! Otherwise ICTY's president would just fire the prosecutor instead of sending memos :)
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the empty words of the ICTY statute which have been ignored by the UN and the ICTY
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 22 December 2015 05:11)

Evidence please that the UN and ICTY have ignored the ICTY statute? Just because you say so does not make it true.

Mate, if somebody has told you that you are God and your words are the Gospel, I think you might have been grossly misled...!

(icj1, 23 December 2015 03:44) Ok, so reference to your requirements is irrelevant too then, because you're saying that regardless of requirements somebody can do whatever he or she wants lol So what you are requesting is utopia :)
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If you wish to continue this exchange, collect your thoughts and rephrase a response with coherent text.


(icj1, 23 December 2015 03:44) Evidence please that the above is a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt. Just because you say so, does not make it a fact beyond reasonable doubt.
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I didn't say so. It's the OTP's own investigator that said so. If you have issues with this fact and conclusion, please send your complaints to the OTP.


(icj1, 23 December 2015 03:44) So you are proving the point that ICTY's prosecutor is independent from its president! Otherwise ICTY's president would just fire the prosecutor instead of sending memos :)
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Such writings are an anathema in reputable legal systems. A judge's writings about a prosecutor, whose cases he is hearing, should be restricted to the evaluation of evidence presented by the prosecutor. That ICTY apologists blatantly applaud the many extra-judicial and pre-judicial "memos" sent by the President Judge, reinforce the contempt for Justice by both the ICTY and their blind apologists.

Vulin should thank you for acknowledging that ICTY Judges disseminate "memos" concerning the individuals whose cases they adjudicate.

Evidence of the selective investigation [...] is part of the ICTY record and was provided by sworn testimony from the OTP's own investigator.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 22 December 2015 09:02)

(icj1, 23 December 2015 03:44) Evidence please that the above is a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt. Just because you say so, does not make it a fact beyond reasonable doubt.

I didn't say so.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 23 December 2015 12:36)

Ok, so it can be ignored then, since it's not a fact established beyond reasonable doubt
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If you wish to continue this exchange, collect your thoughts and rephrase a response with coherent text.
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 23 December 2015 12:36)

Sorry mate, but I was quoting your logic. If you wish to make it more coherent, you are more than welcome to do so!
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Such writings are an anathema and [bla bla bla]
(Amnesty Yugoslavia, 23 December 2015 12:36)

You stated that "If the prosecutor is indeed independent, then why did ICTY president Meron send memos requesting the termination of prosecutor Del Ponte? ". Your statement proves that ICTY's prosecutor is independent from ICTY's president, otherwise ICTY's president would just fire the prosecutor instead of sending memos.

As for the writings being an anathema or whatever for a certain Amnesty Yugoslavia, well... who cares... lol

(icj1, 24 December 2015 03:49) As for the writings being an anathema or whatever for a certain Amnesty Yugoslavia, well... who cares... lol

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Most reputable jurists do. I provided you reference to peer reviewed articles from Internatinal Law Journals, reference to discussion forums with Intl Law experts, testimony from the OTPs own witnesses. Your "lols" are an accurate reflection of the laughable farce that defines both the ICTY and their blind apologists.