balkan nationalism is such cancer for the brain from croatia serbia montenegro to macedonia just a bunch of irrational maniac big ego agressive tactics who choose ideology over facts you lot are all basket cases
You know what's cowardly genius, trying to tell a Montenegrin he is not Serb.
(Jugoslavija, 2 December 2015 20:44)
Ok, fine. But then again so is calling other people all kinds of names. You talk in such absolute terms as if you've been living in the Balkans for the past 7 thousand years and you know who had sex with who for all these thousands of years and you witnessed all of this with your own eyes. Nobody knows for sure how we're all mixed together. There were wars, rapes, and peaceful times where people married those geographically close them. Nobody knows with certainty what the f...ck happened. Yet you and many like you not only think you know for sure but you can give exact GPS coordinates.And then you get mad when other people do the same exact thing you're doing but to Montenegrins. Chill out dude.
Jugoslavia, nobody in the Balkans lacks the ability and will to fight. Otherwise we wouldn't have had all these wars. This hotblooded prevalence for violence and war in the Balkans is the real cowardice and that includes all of us. Even yourself, that are so quick to point your finger at others; that is nothing more but verbal violence. That too is an expression of cowardice.
(J, 2 December 2015 01:38)
You know what's cowardly genius, trying to tell a Montenegrin he is not Serb.
Dear Albanians, all of Leonida's comments are full of hate. It's not ignorance, it's purposeful hate. Recognize it for what it is and please do not engage him as that will only encourage his psychotic rants.
(Genti,
Indeed.Anyone challenging Albanian lies,propaganda and fantasies is a hater.You guys are out of a comic book.
"Arvanites have nothing to do with Albanians. They started emigrating into Greece after the Turkish incursions into Balkans."
(Leonidas)
Oh really? So why don't you tell us where did these "mysterious" Arvanites emigrate from? And why do they speak Albanian? Idiot.
And by the way, Arvanites have been documented living as far south as the Peloponnese since at least the 1100s, hundreds of years before the Ottomans invaded Greece.
Dear Albanians, all of Leonida's comments are full of hate. It's not ignorance, it's purposeful hate. Recognize it for what it is and please do not engage him as that will only encourage his psychotic rants.
Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor implied. If you could repeat previously discredited memes or steer the conversation into irrelevant, off topic discussions, it would be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous. I am out of here.
Jugoslavia, nobody in the Balkans lacks the ability and will to fight. Otherwise we wouldn't have had all these wars. This hotblooded prevalence for violence and war in the Balkans is the real cowardice and that includes all of us. Even yourself, that are so quick to point your finger at others; that is nothing more but verbal violence. That too is an expression of cowardice.
I think Albanians came from Caucasus and along the way added more to their group, and then finally mixed with tribes in Balkans. That can be a reason why their language is so screwed up
(mycomment, 1 December 2015 03:03)
AZERBAIJAN and
DĀGESTAN.
There were 26 kins of the Albanian tribal union. Strabon wrote that "they get hardly in contact with each other." Each of these tribes had their own language, but because of the Turkic tribes were leading one, of course, in Caucasian Albania Turkish was the general communication language. http://www.azerbaijans.com/content_353_en.html
(Daghestan). The many-faceted relationship between Dāḡestān (ancient Albania), a region in the eastern Caucasus, and Persia since antiquity has yet to be studied as a whole, though there is considerable historical, linguistic, folkloric, literary, and art-historical evidence bearing on it.
http://www.azerbaijans.com/content_353_en.html
Greeks owe their freedom, existence from blood & flesh to the Albanian stock not to mention their national costumes and Heroes.
(carpe diem, 1 December 2015 17:01) # Comment link
The Greeks don't owe anything to a cowardly Albanian race. The Greek uprising in 1821 was begun by Alexandros Ypsilantis and continued with Theodoros Kolocotronis.
In 1912 Albania was granted a state where the Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians and Romanians did most of the fighting against Turkish Albanian forces. The so called Western nations led by Austro-Hungary ordered the Serbs to retreat from Durrazo and the Greeks to stop the advance towards Istanbul.
leo,
I am not shifting goals, you asked for scholar names I provided. Now, if you think that Cavalli-Sforza proffesors at California Stanford University, considered the authority today in genes and population and other European known scholars are idiots, and you know better, I give up.
Since you've refused to answer my questions and started talking about genetics have a look at the following recent world ancestry link and tell me where do you see any genetic links between Greeks and Albanians.
http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/
BTW It's very insulting to call an arvanite Albanian.The christian orthodox arvanites joined the Greek revolution whereas the Albanian muslims fought on the side of the Ottomans and committed many atrocities.Hence the name Turko-Albanian.
leo,
I am not shifting goals, you asked for scholar names I provided. Now, if you think that Cavalli-Sforza proffesors at California Stanford University, considered the authority today in genes and population and other European known scholars are idiots, and you know better, I give up. I haven't seen anything on your side to substantiate your claims that you are descendants of ancient Greece.
I also provided you some links with your own modern history so you stop living in denial, thinking you are son of Socrates.
How do you explain that at this ethnographic map of Balkans established by French Guillaume Lejean in 1861, Greece was clearly an Albanian populated province ?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Balk.Ethno-1861.jpg
How about Fallermayer findings?
If Albanians- Arvanitas didn't fight for the freedom of Greece there would be no Greece of today - neither the notion of a Greek Nation since Greek is a religious definition not of a Nation. Hellas would have been found only in the history books as city- states interaction.
Albanian blessing for Greece became a curse on the expense of Albanian population and motherland. Greeks owe their freedom, existence from blood & flesh to the Albanian stock not to mention their national costumes and Heroes.
What the Greeks of today don't have is the vitality, resilience and strength of the people they are in debt to and massacred, deported, annihilated with no mercy.
It's pretty obvious from your comments that uou shift the goal posts as you move along.You started with your claim that"(arvanitas) making the bulk of the greek nation" to which i replied by saying that " the Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34 put the figure of arvanites in Greece to 10%" which clearly shows either ignorance or lying.Then you proceed with the work of Malkolm to support your illyrian views.What you're not saying is that Malkolm himself has professed ignorance to "when and where Albanians came from".Ataman raised a very important point in his comment which was the fact that Albanians are not seafarers unlike the Illyrians who made their living through sea piracy.As to your claim " Albanians are the first inhabitants of the Balkans dating 9,000 years, with Greeks showing up some 2,000 years late" I would say is nonsense.What gives the Greeks claim to antiquity is the survival of a continuous literary tradition for three and a half millennia, from the earliest Linear B clay tablets baked on Crete to the modern Greek alphabet that has been in use for thousands of years. This continuity lends credence to Greek claims. A single literate civilization has survived.
In the case of Albania,that language only entered the historical stage at a very late date, in the 14th century.That lack of an ancient literary tradition in the Albania language implies to me a fairly recent Albanian "civilization." Ottoman?
Carpe Diem, There are a lot of writers that disagree with "Ellyrian origin of Albanians". Read: "The Albanian racism towards the neighbours is based on historical falsifications" where Dr. Kpalna Resulli-Burovich, famous albanologist speaks against fabrications of history. "World renown professors and scholars Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Puscariu and many others" also disagree. Here are some Albanian scholars: "Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the illyrian origin of the Albanians. . . Fatos Ljubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others". Do you still believe that those who disagree with you are under influence of Serb-Greek-Macedonian-Russian propaganda?
I am not a scholar, Carpe Diem, but for few largely logistic reasons I am strongly for the Thracian origin. Besides, it's the only what does not raise more questions than answers.
I do not think, this does make the majority of Albanians upset. Today, "Thracian" vs. "Illyrian" is largely just a curiosity. Both groups are there for a while, at least as far as probably 3000 years.
Besides, as far as my imagination, Illyrians were largely coastal, Thracians largely mountain people.
In exchange Albanians should learn a bit more about proto-Slavonic Hittites and some agglutinative-speaking cultures of antiquity. We, too, did not came from a cave out of nowhere (at least not in last 10000 years). Before that everyone came from caves.
I think Albanians came from Caucasus and along the way added more to their group, and then finally mixed with tribes in Balkans. That can be a reason why their language is so screwed up
Everyone here is so sure of their own position about history that has happened more than 2000 years ago. As if you have a time lapse video on your iPhone and all you need to do is hit play and there you have it. The only thing that we know for sure, is that there were many wars, and with that came a lot of rapes. So believe it or not we all have common genes we share. You disect anyone in the Balkans and you'll find a piece from almost all of the current ethnic groups in them. The only thing that changed is that some 200 years ago Western Europe introduced the idea of nationalism in the Balkans and now have nationalities but the Balkans are the laughing stock of the world. Which is a shame because we didn't have a 100 years wars in the Balkans, Western Europe did. Now we can barely live which other. Part of it is also religion. Take religion away and 75 % of the problems are gone. Nobody can threaten eternal damnation if you don't become defender of God and country by not hating on other ethnicities, if religion is not around. Yet people cling to it for some reason.
@leo
Read "Genes, People and Languages" by prominent genetics professor Cavalli-Sforza. Albanians are the first inhabitants of the Balkans dating 9,000 years, with Greeks showing up some 2,000 years later (p 163). On page 164 is the tree of IE languages, Albanian is the first, oldest branch.
Read "The modern Greek language" by E.M. Geldart p 128-137. He says: The notion that exist today in Greece that Albanians are descendants of Pelasgians is not far from the truth. Then explains in details how you can find in Albanian traces of Sanskrit, lost in Greek and Latin.
E. Schneider talks about archaic one syllable words, counting over 700 in Albanian, while other languages have only a few. For American Albanologist, Eric Hamp, there is no doubt about the Illyrian-Albanian link.
Following scholars think all that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians:
Rudolf Virchow, Eugene Pittard, Edwin Pears, Robert D'Angely, Giuseppe Crispi, Edmund Martin Geldart, Enzo Gatti, Leibniz, von Hahn, Edouard Schneider, Louis Beonlew, Ludwig von Thalloczy, Friedrich Max Muller, Edwin Jacques, Ferdinand Schevill, George F. Williams, Edward Gibbon, Stuart Mann, Eric P. Hamp, Gustav Meyer, Maximilian Lambertz, Theodor Mommsen, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, etc. "There is very little dispute among serious (that is, non-Greek, non-Macedonian and non-Serb) scholars that the Albanians are an ancient people, the descendants of the Illyrians or (as a small minority insists) the Thracians. Dr Sam Vaknin.
Well, you don't have to be a genius to understand that there are really two options only:
A. Albanians are aliens that came to Earth from space; or
B. Albanians, like you, me, and every other human alive today, came from people living before them and eventually from the most ancient form of homo sapiens
So, unless you are claiming (A), the only possible explanation is (B)!
(icj1,
Option A, Albanian Idiot from outer space with numerology problems.
"These ideologies of pan-albanianism were created by Enver Hoxha and its main aim was to appropriate Ancient Greek history as Albanian.No wonder few Albanians on this site aired such views as "Greek stole Albanian history" etc."
Absolutely and TITO was the main driver as he created false educational books and curriculum in the former Yugoslavia and creating literally false nations and ideology. FYROM is a prime example where the entire population has latched on the Greek Macedonian identity while diminishing the fact they are either Serbians, Bulgarians and to a lesser extent Greeks. A "Bosnian Muslim" nationality was also carved out. His ultimate goal was to try to expand the Yugoslav federation to include present day Albania and Bulgaria and even Macedonia Greece.
Leonidas: "I've asked a simple question to the poster who claimed that many historians regard modern Albanians as descendants of the ancient ones to name me one such historian who claimed as such."
I never claimed that actually, Leonidas. Genetics-wise there are no differences between Greeks, Italians and Albos, although I do believe that Albos' predecessors were Thracians' closest relatives. And I do have some evidence provided by some studies on comparative linguistics carried out by the only Albanian researcher I recognize as such, the late antifascist Eqerem Cabej :) But please don't ask me about the title of the article, don't have it at hand right now.
"I've said no serious historian would ever claim that modern peoples are direct descendants of ancient peoples, at least in terms of DNA. What really matters is continuation (e.g. culture, language, occasionally religion) which ensures the historical sense of an evolving community through time." Totally agree, dude, golden words, would have said a Greek, an Albanian, an Eskimo or an Indian :)
Well, you don't have to be a genius to understand that there are really two options only:
A. Albanians are aliens that came to Earth from space; or
B. Albanians, like you, me, and every other human alive today, came from people living before them and eventually from the most ancient form of homo sapiens
So, unless you are claiming (A), the only possible explanation is (B)!
(icj1,
Your comment is a textbook example of an idiotic reductio ad absurdum.I've asked a simple question to the poster who claimed that many historians regard modern Albanians as descendants of the ancient ones to name me one such historian who claimed as such.I've always know that it's too difficult for you to understand my postings.
Carpe
1-The Epirotes and Macedonians were, in Strabo’s time ,un-Greek or barbarian
If you want to convince me (and the world) that Macedonians were not Greek because Demosthenes called them barbarian, first you have to convince me (and the world) that:
1. Aristogeiton was not Greek because Demosthenes called him a barbarian
2.Demosthenes was not Greek because Aeschines called him a barbarian
3. The Eleans were not Greek because Stratonicus called them barbarians
4. The Thessalians were not Greek because Hegesander called them barbarians.
5. The Aeoleans were not Greek because Prodicus called them barbarians.
2-Epirotes, Macedonians and Illyrians are kindred races.
3-Illyrian = Pelasgian in a wider sense
These ideologies of pan-albanianism were created by Enver Hoxha and its main aim was to appropriate Ancient Greek history as Albanian.No wonder few Albanians on this site aired such views as "Greek stole Albanian history" etc.
4-The present day division of the Albanians the Tosks and Guegs represent the Epirotes and Illyrians. Pelasgians therefore is regarded by him as convertible with Illyrian and that with Gueg and Tosk of present day Albania.
Where is archaelogical evidence and historiography?
5-In the view of Von Hahn there are strong presumptions that the Illyrian language was Albanian.
The Austrian Scholars Schumacher and Matzinger who researched the theory that the Albanian language has its roots in Ancient Illyria found no evidence at all.
Dimou? I've never heard of him.History is not created by videos,it's created by archaeological relics and historiography and you've got none.Do you really want to know about arvanites? Read what Michael Attaleiates the Greek Byzantine historian has to say on the subject. After all he was writing over 900 years ago he's more credible than any modern one.
If you really want to know about the Albanians I would refer you to a Turkish Ottoman historian(He used the Ottoman archives) - Halil Inalcik “The middle east and the balkans under the ottoman empire essays on economy and society” what he had to say about the Balkans.“Having strategic significance the Vilaeti of Kosovo and the Balkans in general were subjected to a systematic settlement of thousands of Turkic people after the conquest.[..]It is, however, obvious that Ottoman conquests were made to settle there, which were not just temporary adventurous or marauding movements.”He continues “Such places as Serez, Plovdiv, Babadag, Elbasan, Sarajevo, Silistre and Skopje had been rearranged by the uc-begis in such a way to be new Turkish cities“.
I am not going to address the rest of your rant, keep believing you are the son of Socrates.
(carpe diem
Of course you won't it's better to believe some videos than the works of eminent non-Greek historian that I've quoted below.I even gave you the page number.Unlike the Albanians I am the one on record on this site(few times) that I've said no serious historian would ever claim that modern peoples are direct descendants of ancient peoples, at least in terms of DNA. What really matters is continuation (e.g. culture, language, occasionally religion) which ensures the historical sense of an evolving community through time.
@leonidas my greek friend,
I don’t need to Google Von Hahn; looks like you didn’t read him. Let me summarize his main ideas for you:
1-The Epirotes and Macedonians were, in Strabo’s time , un-Greek or barbarian
2-Epirotes, Macedonians and Illyrians are kindred races.
3-Illyrian = Pelasgian in a wider sense
4-The present day division of the Albanians , the Tosks and Guegs represent the Epirotes and Illyrians. Pelasgians therefore is regarded by him as convertible with Illyrian and that with Gueg and Tosk of present day Albania.
5-In the view of Von Hahn there are strong presumptions that the Illyrian language was Albanian
And since we are at scholars, why don’t you look up Fallmerayer, the real authority on Greece. Let see what he wrote in 1830:
“…The race of the Hellenes has been wiped out in Europe. Physical beauty, intellectual brilliance, innate harmony and simplicity, art, competition, city, village, the splendour of column and temple — indeed, even the name has disappeared from the surface of the Greek continent.... Not the slightest drop of undiluted Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of present-day Greece.[7]…”
If there are so many modern historians claiming what you say -which considers that Albanians have any relation to ancient peoples-then show me at least one such.
(Leonidas, 29 November 2015 18:04)
Well, you don't have to be a genius to understand that there are really two options only:
A. Albanians are aliens that came to Earth from space; or
B. Albanians, like you, me, and every other human alive today, came from people living before them and eventually from the most ancient form of homo sapiens
So, unless you are claiming (A), the only possible explanation is (B)!
@ Leonidas, I don't know any not because there aren't any but most probably because this is a topic I'm not even interested in. My history books were all fabricated by quasi-scholars, the same people who are fabricating the texts which are used today in our schools. Both Greek and Turkish governments have recently asked Albo gvt to ammend those text books. Aref is a clown, a drivelling idiot. But hey, I meant what I wrote, no major Serbian scholar has ever denied that Albos are indigenous in the Balkans.
Apologies to the admins, I'm being totally off-topic in my posts. @ Carpe Diem, to the best of my knowledge, the Caucasian thesis of Albos' origins has never been supported by Serbian scholars. It has been supported by Pacolli recently...
@ Carpe Diem, the first Albanian Orthodox bishops were consecrated by Serbian bishops...and you know that without consecrated Albo bishops we would never have had the first synod of bishops who declared the Albo church's autocephaly. I'm pretty sure you're able to understand what it meant for the Albanian nation, the practical implications of such a positive attitude towards Albos. And they are not being good at all towards their bros Macedonians' or Montenegrins re recognition of autocephaly, right bro? Secondly, if it weren't for Yugo communists, Albania would have never built its own antifascist resistance and united front. Since our catholics and 3-4 muslims resolved to collaborate with the fascis and nazis, Albania would have been definitely divided at the end of WWII, if it weren't for our partizan forces who fought alongside yugo partizans. Once again, yugos proved crucial to our victory and if we can today celebrate it's also thanks to that alliance. Atrocities have been committed from both sides during the centuries and atrocities have been committed by Albos as well, alongside Turks and Fascis. Obviously, I'm sure that the Illyrian thesis was fabricated by Austrian and German scholars for mere political goals, the most important being that of setting Albos against their Slavic and Greek neighbors. And they perfectly succeded when they joined forces with Hoxha's academy. Widespread pathological hatred for the Serbs followed Hoxha's split from his former yugo mates. There aren't any Albos who doesn't know when the 'barbaric and cruel slavic hordes' arrived in the Balkans, right? Sure, I wouldn't expect some scientific research being made by Albo scholars during Hoxha's regime. They couldn't even communicate with their colleagues in Belgrade or Rome, or Athens. So what we are talking about here? So how can I comment on Serbian scholars if i'm aware of the professional background of 'my' scholars? And btw, all we know about Serbian scholars is what our scholars have declared. Obviously, I don't trust you when you cite Nikolic. Go figure out why ;)
You are correct, except that the 'our monkey climbed down the tree 10 years earlier than yours' argument is being used by all sides to support serious-looking political claims.
I am extremely disappointed seeing that because these claims are made by politicians in lieu of professionalism. It is very cheap and it's only a pretense. The real goal is of course to hold on power. But masses still seem to be easy to manipulate with all this.
Economic-political mafia is omni-present and it became the establishment.
My opinion is that the root cause of a lot of problems is the disaster called 'public education'. That disaster started in the States somewhere around mid-70s.
They not only not fix that broken system - they even export it. The education problem does trigger that the political establishment is essentially untouchable.
Unfortunately much of this madness is exported under the pretense of 'democratic liberal' ideas. It causes harm not only because it is what it is, but because people see the devastation and many of them as a result became hostile to anything what could have the slightest reference to 'democracy' or 'liberalism'.
It's like comparing the struggle for worker's or human rights with Enver Hoxha.
Of course, E.H. just pretended to act 'in interest of workers'.
By the way: I recall both Margaret Thatcher and China supporting Pol Pot against Vietnamese - just because Soviet Union supported VietNam.
For our friend Leonidas the Greek aka the Arvanitas aka the Albanian.
Nikos Dimou the great Greek writer gave a very interesting interview recently for the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/arts/design/24abroad.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=2&adxnnlx=1436047412-svOKX94RAAGA1d5aS21kpg
“It’s the fault of a German,” Mr. Dimou said about Greek pride in this cause. He was referring to Johann Winckelmann, the 18th-century German art historian whose vision of an ancient Greece “populated by beautiful, tall, blond, wise people, representing perfection,” as Mr. Dimou put it, was in a sense imposed on the country to shape modern Greek identity.
“We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.”
Look at this ethnographic map of Balkans established by French Guillaume Lejean in 1861, Greece was clearly an Albanian populated province by that time.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Balk.Ethno-1861.jpg
Watch also this video from mainstream skainews greek tv, it is a superb documentary about the history of Greece. Greece spoke mainly Albanian in the 18th century.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M99ze151HvA
I am not going to address the rest of your rant, keep believing you are the son of Socrates.
Obviously, Carpe Diem is a little bit lying since there are no serious Serbian scholars who deny that Albos are indigeneous in the Balkans.
(Drymades,
If there are so many modern historians claiming what you say -which considers that Albanians have any relation to ancient peoples-then show me at least one such.A modern one, who is still alive and not Albanian or half-Albanian, like that Mathieu Aref.
The cities of Nis - Rudnica - Pec - Prizren - Veles make roughly a triangle, with much of Kosovo inside. That is the area I was referring to. It is the disputed area, precisely like the Transylvania for Romanians.
There is no trace of Vlach presence in Transylvania before 13th Century and same about Albanian presence in Kosovo before 14th Century. Toponyms included.
More of the problem of Albanian pirates during the early middle ages: where are pirate hideouts, castles, safe havens, support cities south of Kotor?
Only one is there: Ulcinj. It is sufficiently Albanian and sufficiently pirate - but it's relatively new. The Albanian naval commanders of Ottoman Empire started appear around 18th century, correct?
Dalmatinci fit all the Illyrian stereotype very well and in addition the local traditional writing (glagolica) used to be called Illyrian writing.
In any case here is an other side of that Illyrian controversy:
http://tinyurl.com/ht9c3xv
If that's the case, the Illyrian-Albanian relationship is quite wilder thing to imagine than the Magyar-Shumerian, at least I can easily swear in Shumerian.
The Magyar-Shumerian relationship is considered pseudo-science. While Hittite -Slavonic relationship is proven, it is not being exposed: Hattusa is in Turkey.
If you are Illyrians - than we are Shumerians and Hittites. Let's be fair.
Albania has provided the human bulk for successive empires (byzantine, roman, serbian and ottoman), that is why Albanians are today muslims, orthodox and christians. Most of them kept their language, some were assimilated by Greece (arvanitas) making the bulk of the greek nation, (by 1820 in Greece Albanian was more widely spoken than Greek)
(carpe diem
I have no real ambition to emulate your diatribe-long nonsensical comment in the B92 forum, but let me make a couple of comments: There has never been any Albanian national conscience as such a thing emerged just in 1878 with the Prizren (Kosovo) League by all means fabricated by foreign powers and religious propaganda.During the Turkish domination there was no Albanian nation. The inhabitants of today’s Albania were distinguished by their faith.This is why Albanians preferred the Turkish rather than the Albanian conscience, unfamiliar to them. Moreover during the Greek-Ottoman and Balkan wars the Muslims of Albania fought dynamically ranged among the orders of the Ottoman Army.
Arvanites have nothing to do with Albanians.They started emigrating into Greece after the Turkish incursions into Balkans.Arvanites were less 10% of the total population of Greece in 19th century, 200.000 out of a total population of 2.000.000. This is attested by the eminent Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34, search for it on books.google.com.
This is one of the more interesting discussions in a long time but only in the context of scientific curiosity. The Problem is that you guys are using history for politics and whenever history has been mixed up with current politics people have died. As seen in the last few decades in the Balkans.
I mean how do events, that took place 2000+ yrs ago contribute to our life today?! Except of causing confusion and anger. This is utterly nonsense. We have to accept that there was a huge migration of the peoples and that the concept of Borders was introduced late in human history. Just go a 200 yrs back and you will see that borders between Monarchies or Empires where very volatile. Nations and Nationalisms are a very young concept, people used to belong to families, clans, Kings/Queens, Religions but the only constant was Family. Change of Faith, Kings/Queens or clans was normal and only the family bond remained constant.
My Point is, dont interpret too much in history. Focus on the present and how we are going to live together in the future. I dont believe in Titos Yugoslavia but I believe in a strong South-easy Europe with great diversity and prosperity thru cooperations.
@Drymades
…Carpe Diem is a little bit lying since there are no serious Serbian scholars who deny that Albos are indigeneous in the Balkans…
I have yet to find a Serb scholar that admits that. Look how much time the Serb Academy spent trying to make the case that Albanians come from Caucasia which has been totally debunked yet is widely popular in Serbia today. The other part of Serbia who does not believe this tale are convinced that Albanians came to the area with the Turks.
In a recent interview, Serbia's president Nikolic (granted he is not a scholar..) said that “there is no sign in Kosovo that there were any Albanians prior to 50 years ago.” I repeat prior to 50 years ago. That is going back to 1965. So according to Nikolic, sometime after 1965, 2 million Albanian's suddenly entered Kosovo, even though there is not a single mention of such an event. Furthermore, if 2 million Albanians suddenly, entered Kosovo, wouldn't such a huge shift in population reflect on the next census in Albania proper?
I am saying this, because such stupid lies can only be sold to the Serbs who are still living in total denial of the reality.
Georgevitch, prime minister of Serbia tried to convince the world that Albanians have tails and live in the trees literally!. Vaso Cubrilovic had his nazi style “final solution” for the exterminations of albanians that Milosevic tried to put in practice. What on earth have Albanians done to Serbia that Serbian state is hell bent to exterminate them?
There are two unanswered questions to your theory, Carpe Diem
1) The lack of toponyms with Albanian names, same situation what Romanians in Transylvania do face.
Comment - The Romanians in Transylvania is a Mix of Skytians(Gotic Germans) and Sarmatians/Slavs(Serbians of Armenian german descent) from the 4th and 5th Century B.C.
Further -
"Illyrians" could rather fit the Dalmatians. Interestingly, the Glagolitic script was called "Illyrian writing" and it is still quite widely used in Croatia. I did see Glagolitic roadsigns all over Istria.
(Ataman, 28 November 2015 03:41) # Comment link
Comment -
The Istrians is of Keltic ancestry( a german people).
The Romanians/Tiraspolians/Romans/Albanians/Illyrians are all imigrants from Troy.
The center of Montenegrin culture and heritage has always been Shkodra (in the heart of Albanian Malesia) and not Belgrade.
(Genti, 28 November 2015 19:19)
Rubbish again and more Albanian propaganda. Albanians love stealing history from the Italians, Greeks and or Serbians. Lake Skadar is a Serbian name, not Albanian, Kosovo and Metohija is a Serbian name, Kosovo in Serbia proper, parts of Metohija in both Serbia and Montenegro. The founding nations of Serbia are Rascia and Zeta, Serbia and Montenegro. Durres is Durrazo, a famous Italian and Venetian port, zero Albanian history lined to this port city. The examples go on and on, Albanian historical roots are in Dagestan and Azerbaijan and Turkey if you fishing to find yourselves.
In order to create and sustain a nation state one must create national mythologies to differentiate oneself. When you hear Serbian TV all day long, and your sick go to Serbian hospitals, and your kids attend Serbian universities, and then go off to Belgrade to find work, it's pretty obvious you don't really have a separate identity and need to make one up (just like a lot of your neighbors)
(Guest, 28 November 2015 05:26)
Actually, that goes the same for the Croats although the Montenegrins are much closer cousins to the Serbs. Albanians are a completely different race and you can spot them a mile away. It is interesting to note there are a lot of redhead Albanians, that one is a mystery, they mush have raped and pillaged a boat full of Scottish/Irish women in an Adriatic port.
Serbs, Montenegrins, Romanians, Bulgarians, are basically the same people: a mix of thracian, latin, slavs and celtic people, of the same faith. Orthodox. Part of the byzantine empire. The differences were exploited, because otherwise we wouldn't have the nations today, would we? Those ethnic elements are mixed in different ways, but it's enough to see that we basically look the same, have the same way of life, we had the same alphabet until the 19th centuries...I don't mean to offend you, it's just the truth.
@ ataman
On first question, I can give you more than 900 Albanian toponyms and about 300 Serb toponyms in Albania. Serb and Albanian toponyms have been completely eradicated in Greece through state policy which is not the case in Albania. There are/was way more Serb toponyms in Greece than Albania.
On second question, I invite you to read the latest book from Oxford researcher Noel Malcolm “Agents of empire”. He talks about Albania during 13 to 17th century, as researched in the Vatican archives. You would see that all corsairs and cities from Preveza to Budva.
Albania has a fascinating history, her problem is that it is written by her neighbors. Albanian were mostly good fighters and paid only lip service to religion which is the only cultural institution in those times with written heritage.
All Balkan people have lots of Illyrian genes in common, however all peoples in the Balkans speak a common Slavic language which has no connection with Illyrian & their arrival in 6th century is well recorded in history. Albanians are the only ones who speak a different language and there is no record in known history showing their arrival in the Balkans.
Also, during the ottoman occupation the only people in Balkans that truly resisted the Turks were Albanians. Most major and minor battles against Turks were fought by the Albanians, this is a historical fact. But they don’t get much credit as we often wrongly portray them as Muslims and the Hoxha regime did not do them a favor.
“Dalmatian Croats are actually more closely related to Bosnian Serbs than Croats from Zagreb”
(Nenad)
That makes sense, because if you read history, you’ll see that Bosnian Serbs, especially Hercegovinians, were majority Vlachs (Romanized Illyrians) who spoke Vlach (Vulgar Latin) before being assimilated into Slavic Serbs. Vlachs have the same ethnic stock as most Albanians, Croatians, Bosnians, Romanians etc. and their language is similar to Romanian, both adopted during the Roman Empire. Vlachs are still present throughout Illyria, from the Dalmatian coast and Hercegovina, through Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia and Epirus. The “Serbian” part of Montenegro, near Hercegovina is of the same non-Slavic Illyrian-Vlach stock.
“they recently were Albanians”
(Beni)
Beni, you are exactly correct. All Montenegrins know this, eventhough some don’t have the courage to admit it. Most of Old Montenegro spoke Albanian before Serbian spies like Njegos started baptizing them with Serbian names and teaching them Serbian through church. The evidence is all over, from the Illyrian topography all across the country (Ulqin, Tivar, Kotor, Nikshi) to their medieval history (rulers: Balshaj/Balsic, Crnojevic who fought for an independent Albania) to the Montenegrin culture which is exactly the same as the Albanian Malesor culture. The center of Montenegrin culture and heritage has always been Shkodra (in the heart of Albanian Malesia) and not Belgrade.
Thracia is neither fitting inside Enver Hoxha nor Nicolae Ceausescu head because it was a bit south and a bit east than they needed. Illyiria and Dacia was changed for them on purpose. But otherwise no contest.
So there it is, Beni - your text without Hoxha and without Ceausescu.
Half of Slavic population in ex Yugoslavia have Illyrian or Thracian genes this is case with Serbs, Croats, Slovenians and Bosnians. When we talk for Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians and people from sanxhak they have not just Illyrian or Thracian genes, but also about half of Albanians were recently Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians. During Ottoman empire since service in churches was held in Church-Slavonic and Greek language, Orthodox Albanians were (still) assumed to be Serbian, Slavic population from Montenegro and Macedonia and also to Greek speaking population. This was because Albanian population before converting to Islam was treated like biggest enemy in the Ottoman empire. Albanians were encouraged in order to survive either to convert to Slavic or Greek speaking and save religion - or convert to Islam and save national identity. Serbs population, too, was encouraged to convert to Islam. Orthodox Albanians were assumed to be Slavonic or Greek. Catholic Albanians were converted to Islam. Albanians (largely Thracians) fought through the history empires like Hellenic Cities, Romans, Ottomans and to some degree Russians. Thracia lost territory - but the genes are there.
Nenad : “So maybe we can't rely on everything the historians tell us about the ethnic breakdown of the Balkans.”
Not only about ethnical but all the rest of the issues too! Because if you lie once you have to lie all the time and this rule has no exceptions. If you place an event in the ancient times quite a few will care about it. But if the same event is placed in the medieval times things change drastically. As for the happlogroups that you mentioned I wonder what for have they divided the Arian R happlogroup so that it looks like two separate groups now ? Wasn’t it made to further divide peoples and not to let the new technology reveal the truth ? Why R1a and R1b Slavic happlogroups weren’t marked in a way to demonstrate their unity ? Why not have a formula that would not didvide but unite peoples? Technically it has no problems. Another reason why the R1 and R1b has been artificially divided was to avoid questions of how came that most of the western Europe have Slavic routes of R1b branch. Only the New Chronology of Anatoly Fomenko gives well documented explanations to all those strange things in the history.
Thracia is neither fitting inside Enver Hoxha nor Nicolae Ceausescu head because it was a bit south and a bit east than they wanted. So "Illyiria" and "Dacia" was born. But otherwise no contest.
So there it is, Beni - your text without Hoxha and without Ceausescu.
"Half of Slavic population in ex Yugoslavia have Illyrian or Thracian genes this is case with Serbs, Croats, Slovenians and Bosnians. When we talk for Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians and people from sanxhak they have not just Illyrian or Thracian genes, but also about half of Albanians were recently Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians. During Ottoman empire since service in churches was held in Church-Slavonic and Greek language, Orthodox Albanians were (still) assumed to be Serbian, Slavic population from Montenegro and Macedonia and also to Greek speaking population. This was because Albanian population before converting to Islam was treated like biggest enemy in the Ottoman empire. Albanians were encouraged in order to survive either to convert to Slavic or Greek speaking and save religion - or convert to Islam and save national identity. Serbs population, too, was encouraged to convert to Islam. Orthodox Albanians were assumed to be Slavonic or Greek. Catholic Albanians were converted to Islam. Albanians (largely Thracians) fought through the history empires like Hellenic Cities, Romans, Ottomans and to some degree Russians. Thracia lost territory - but the genes are there."
Excellent and concise, Ataman. Albos, stop repeating Hoxha's fairy tales and listen to this man/woman. I would only add that there were hundreds of Serbian, Bulgarian, and Greek schools in the 17th century in Albania, Ataman, so it's not just an issue of 'lack of Albanian toponyms'. The argument goes that there were hundreds of Serbs, Greeks, and Bulgarians living in Albania in the late middle ages. Funny enough, Albania's only Unesco world heritage sites have all been built by either Slavs or Greeks. For who? Who used to worship in those churches besides obviously the indigenous Albanians, assuming that there were any? Obviously, Carpe Diem is a little bit lying since there are no serious Serbian scholars who deny that Albos are indigeneous in the Balkans. Achtung, Albos, please read carefully the above smart remarks, my weekend time is of extreme value and I expect you to be grateful to this Greek here who would typically avoid writing such a long essay. Obviously, Albos became the major demographic factor in Kosovo only during the Ottoman rule. For obvious reasons, would have said Chomsky đŸ˜Š
It is funny with srbs.
On one hand they say when they come to ballkan on illyrian lands ,there were no illyrians .
on the other hand today they without shame ,clame to have illyrian genes too.
then if no illyrian were there when you occupied there land,as you say here everyday,then where did you get there genes ?? on the trees ?
He is in fact quite correct from a genetic perspective. History needs to be re-written.
I look at my genetic history as an Albanian from Montenegro. I was taught to believe that Albanians were descendants of the original people of the Balkans. Illyrians. I have .05% of Paleo Balkanic. Not even 1 percent. No Altaic Turkic either 0% as some Serbs would have you believe. Red Hair and freckles. Not me personally but some of my relations. More red hair and freckles than some Celtic people I know. How?
Serb Nationalist will say Albanians are from Asia and not even European. Bullshit!!!
According to Gedmatch. Here's my Genetic makeup and both my parents are Albanians from Montenegro.
North_Sea 16.45% Southern Norway
East_Med 16.27% Possibly Greek?
Atlantic 15.28% Cornwall UK
Baltic 15.96% Baltic
West_Med 14.38% Italy Spain?
West_Asian 11.78% Georgia
Eastern_Euro 7.81% Perhaps Slavic or Romanian
Red_Sea 1.49% Red Sea
Southeast_Asian 0.58% Who Knows I think it's Balochistan
Then an orthodox Serb from the United States named Vucic writes to me and says Hey I may be your 4-6 cousin.
Monetengrins in the eastern part of the country are hablogroup E-V13. This hablogroup came to southern balkans about 5000yrs ago via todays Libya/Syria. Its the hablogroup that makes up most of albanians at 45%, greeks at 27%, mak slavs at 23% & montenegrins at 27%. So basically, anyones dna who is E, is not of Slavic ancestry. The E-V13 were the illyrians, thracians n greek tribes who spoke latin and became slavs.
Serbs by far in large are hablogroup i2a, at 45%. The I hablogroup began in the balkans 25000yrs ago, spread through parts of europe (especially north, hence why those folks towards norway etc are also tall). Later i2a settlers in todays Czech along wth pure slavic dna R1a, came to bosnia area n mixed wth the old i2a of that area and spread. Other i2a n r1a Slavs came from ukraine and filled bulgaria, northern greece and macedonia. So true serb tribe came from other direction, while those who came from ukraine were not serb slavs although they carried same dna.
Bottom line, if you test and find out youre E-V13, youre not of the original serb stock, instead we are old settlers of the balkans who became Serbs anytime after the 7th century. Vasojevici, Bjelopavlici, Kuca, Piperi are all E-V13, and most trace their roots to Kosovo, which is the epicenter of E-V13 in Europe.
Albanians were converted to Slavic and Greeks and Catholic Albanians were converted to Muslims. Albanians (Illyrians) through the history because of empires like Roman, Russian and Ottoman who destroyed them and favored others they lost territory and population but the genes are there and one day these genes will do their job.
(Beni, 28 November 2015 09:27)
Absolute rubbish with no historical proof and context. For one thing, part of Montenegro were never invaded by the Ottoman empire so Albanians would never had the opportunity to be "converted" to Serbians.
We should be talking about Albanian Islamic Muslim Terrorists who are not Illyrians but descended from Dagestan and Azerbaijan and Turkey, makes much more sense on why they follow Islam.
Azerbaijan
Empire of the Alexander of the Great, which occupied areas of Ahamenids was collapsed in 323 BC after his death. In northern lands of Azerbaijan inhabited by modern Turks, Caucasian Albania was established in the north and Atropotena in the south in IV century BC.
http://azerbaijans.com/content_353_en.html
DĀḠESTĀN
(Daghestan). The many-faceted relationship between Dāḡestān (ancient Albania), a region in the eastern Caucasus, and Persia since antiquity has yet to be studied as a whole, though there is considerable historical, linguistic, folkloric, literary, and art-historical evidence bearing on it.http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/dagestan
Be proud to be Albanian!!! I am!!!!
(Ulqini aka ulcinj, 27 November 2015 19:41)
Be proud there are no Serbians and Montenegrins who are "Albanians"
Pastrovici, one of the largest and oldest clans in Montenegro and has nothing whatsoever to do with Albania So take your stupid propaganda elsewhere.
Anyone interested in the truth has to look at the science. I've seen a little, and the Balkans - like lots of regions - are all mixed up. But there are predominant haplogroups, and if Wikipedia is to be believed, Montenegrins do tend to cluster with Hercegovinians, Dalmatians, Albanians, Macedonians and probably a few other Balkan groups. It's interesting: for example, one can see where Dalmatian Croats are actually more closely related to Bosnian Serbs than Croats from Zagreb. So maybe we can't rely on everything the historians tell us about the ethnic breakdown of the Balkans.
Half of Slavic population in ex Yugoslavia have Illyrian genes this is case with Croats, Slovenians and Bosnians. When we talk for Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians and people from sanxhak they have not just Illyrian genes but also about half of them they recently were Albanians. During ottoman empire since predication in churches was held in Slavic and Greek language orthodox Albanians were assimilated to Serbian, Slavic population from Montenegro and Macedonia and also to Greek speaking population. This was because Albanian population before converting to Islam was treated like biggest enemy in the ottoman empire. Albanians were forced in order to survive either to convert to Slavic or Greek speaking and save religion or convert to Muslims and save national identity. Orthodox Albanians were converted to Slavic and Greeks and Catholic Albanians were converted to Muslims. Albanians (Illyrians) through the history because of empires like Roman, Russian and Ottoman who destroyed them and favored others they lost territory and population but the genes are there and one day these genes will do their job.
My ancestors are from Montenegro. I am a Serb. For every hundred Serbs I know like this, I know maybe 2 people who think what this writer says.
One can be Montenegrin and Serb at the same time. There are numerous references in both literatures to it.
Montenegro's greatest leader, organizer, liberator, national hero and greatest poet Njegos said clearly Montenegrins are Serbs.
Montenegrins speak Serbian with little dialect of significance and use the Cyrillic alphabet
Montenegrins and Serbs share a common mythology which is a significant barometer of resemblance.
Montengrins celebrate Serbian Slava (only Serbs celebrate Slava in the world). They are baptized in Serbian Orthodox churches, attend Sunday school in them, marry in them and are buried in Serbian Orthodox graveyards.
Montenegrins and Serbs look alike. And they understand one another like no two other people in the Balkans. They are brothers and always were and always will be (irregardless of temporary Djukanovic's who come and go)
In order to create and sustain a nation state one must create national mythologies to differentiate oneself. When you hear Serbian TV all day long, and your sick go to Serbian hospitals, and your kids attend Serbian universities, and then go off to Belgrade to find work, it's pretty obvious you don't really have a separate identity and need to make one up (just like a lot of your neighbors)
Why do they speak Serbian then???
(Zoran..Sydney Australia, 27 November 2015 23:31)
====================
They call it Montenegrin these days. Where was this language before?
There are two unanswered questions to your theory, Carpe Diem
1) The lack of toponyms with Albanian names, same situation what Romanians in Transylvania do face.
2) The complete lack of seafarer skills. Before 18th century there wasn't much word about Albanian pirates. On the other hand Illyrians (as they used to be called) were feared pirates of antiquity.
The most plausible answer is that both Romanians and Albanians are related to Thracians mixed with Roman settlers and different ethnic groups during barbaric invasions. This is not a perfect answer but makes some things having more sense.
It could be even that Albanians are composed from different groups who adopted a common language (Hungarians did the same).
"Illyrians" could rather fit the Dalmatians. Interestingly, the Glagolitic script was called "Illyrian writing" and it is still quite widely used in Croatia. I did see Glagolitic roadsigns all over Istria.
Montenegrins are serbs.....their puny population of 500,000 world wide that don't think so then they need help//////these so called Montenegrins are a minority in Montenegro lol with 250,000.....within 10 years their population world wide will go from the 500,000 to 200,000.....then 0.......
(funny, 27 November 2015 22:00)
You start with "Montenegrins are Serbs" and then you go on as if they are a different population from Serbs! Unless you're saying that the number of Serbs worldwide will go to 0, in which case you do have a point :)
The Romans had a nasty habit of naming peoples and territories in order to obscure native peoples and their countries. Consider the name Palestine for the territory where the Jews are indigenous.
Montenegrins are serbs.....their puny population of 500,000 world wide that don't think so then they need help//////these so called Montenegrins are a minority in Montenegro lol with 250,000.....within 10 years their population world wide will go from the 500,000 to 200,000.....then 0.......
was half Serb, half Slovak. He is one of the most celebrated Hungarian poets, so he is ethnic Hungarian.
Балшић family was Albanian. Than while Мара Кастриотић-Црноjевић was of course Serb, her brother was Albanian. And there is a famous brandy bearing his name.
Steve Jobs wasn't Lebanese. He was 100% American. Who cares that his physical ancestors are Lebanese.
Everyone knows the name of the biggest Ethiopian-African poet, arguably the biggest poet on the Planet Earth ever. Don't say that you don't know his name.
I just say: Abraham Hannibal. Who's his great-grandson?
Interestingly at one point the nature does "adjust" even the physical look.
"Mixed" couples of different races after few decades start to look similar.
Two madmen at the end of the list of good guys.
Димитрије Стојаковић
has nothing to do with Serbs. He was a Hungarian madman who made Hungary more nazi than Germany was.
Erdoğan is NOT Georgian.
Erdoğan allegedly said in 2003, I'm a Georgian, my family is a Georgian family which migrated from Batumi to Rize.
However, in a 2014 televised interview on the NTV news network, he said, You wouldn't believe the things they have said about me. They have said I am Georgian even with much uglier things, they have called me Armenian, but I am Turkish.
Who's your daddy, Erdoğan? I hope, the Turkish military.
To make a general statement like that is very difficult to substantiate one way or the other however when looking at someone from Serbia, in many cases they do resemble Russians on the other hand when looking at someone from Montenegro you often see a Mediterranean/Greek look about them. So figure that one out
You don't have to do much research to learn that the Romans named several groups of people in the Balkans as "Illyrians". This was simply the name that they used for all of the people who lived in the Balkans. There isn't a shred of legitimate evidence pointing to one specific nationality over the other as the origin of Illyrians. It's similar to calling a group of people in the Scandanavian regions Northerners. All other theories are approaching Lord of the Rings territory.
The people in Montenegro are Slavs and they are Serbian, there is no doubt about that, history proves it, DNA proves it and our cultures prove it...
(Nikola Novakovic, 27 November 2015 16:04)
Please provide the following proof showing that the people of Montenegro are Serbians:
Finally Montenegrins are starting to realize they are actually Albanians which were assimilated by force hundreds of years ago. All the old time Montenegrins know this is true but for whatever reason they hide it. If they were really Serbs they would of stood together.Be proud to be Albanian!!! I am!!!!
Good boy you learned who the Montenegrin's are. Yes the Montenegrin's are http://www.slovio.com/slavic-gene/Haplogroup_I.png Haplogroup I. Slavs are Haplogroup R1a yes you have relatives but they are not Serbs.
They've proved, ever since their arrival to the Balkans, that they cannot coexist peacefully with other people........
(news reader, 27 November 2015 16:46)
Today's society, unfortunately, is a very fertile ground for quacks and prophets of hatred. Not so long ago, the Cosovic's of this world would never be the news material. Paradoxically, the more insane their blabber is, the more attention it gets. Debating with Cosovic, of course, is pointless. One can only wonder which part of the 620000-strong populus is MiroSLAV referring to.
Instead of ad hominem attacks, one has to look at his arguments and history as written by independent scholars, not Balkan biased academics.
Whether we like it or not, the Adriatic an Ionian coasts from Preveza to Kotor have been mainly populated by people of Albanian stock since immemorial times. Albania has provided the human bulk for successive empires (byzantine, roman, serbian and ottoman), that is why Albanians are today muslims, orthodox and christians. Most of them kept their language, some were assimilated by Greece (arvanitas) making the bulk of the greek nation, (by 1820 in Greece Albanian was more widely spoken than Greek) some were assimilated by Serbia and some by Turkey. Coastal villages of Ulcinj, Bar, Kotor and to some degree Budva were predominantly albanian and modern day montenegrins have way more in common with albanian mountain people than serbs of mainland Serbia.
For nationalistic / traditional reasons Serbia refuses to take into account the existence of albanians as native to the Balkans (probably inferiority complex of the latecomers to the area) and has created a false history and narrative that leads to an aggressive policy of war and false propaganda by denying the right to existence of albanians and ultimately living in denial of reality. Admitting that Albanians are native to the Balkans does not make Serb claims less legitimate in the area, it would rather give them a leading role as mutual trust will be restored.
Actually you are the living proof why no one wants to be affiliated with serbs. Your nationalistic rants are getting old. Always the same BS with you. You are exactly the kind of people that we need to get rid of in all our countries and everyone is ashamed of they have em.
I dont know if I should thank you for always reminding of who the real enemy is or if I should be sad, that people like you really exist. And by enemy I`m not talking about Serbia, I`m talking about primitive warmongering brainwashed nationalistic kids.
You can't blame Montenegrins for not wanting to relate themselves with serbs!
Serbs are a very nationalistic and problematic nation. They've proved, ever since their arrival to the Balkans, that they cannot coexist peacefully with other people.
(news reader, 27 November 2015 16:46)
Wrong on everything. First of all, Montenegro's most recognizable heroes were some of the biggest Serbs in history. I am from Montenegro, and the majority of people there consider themselves to be Serbian. Unfortunately, my people are living oppressed under the Djukanovic tyrannical dictatorship that has tried to force an identity change in Montenegro, but only his cronies and beneficiaries buy into it. The vast majority of the people are Serbs who follow the Serbian Orthodox Church.
Oh and as far as Serbs not being able to live with others, Serbia in the most multi-ethnic country in the region, by far. One day, Montenegro will be part of it!
Oh well, in that case i would have a brand new name for Miroslav Cosovic... Ladies and gentlemen, here is Mr. Agron Kosova from Montenegro!! If you are an Illyrian, I am an eskimo, would have said my best friend :)
Who really cares? Is it so important to either the Montenegrins or the Serbs whether or not the former are really the latter in disguise?Going back 1000 years, my family name (it isn't Taylor by the way) is French, but I'm as British as crap weather.
Ah of course, the Illyrians. Now I'd love to see a bunch of revisionists from Podgorica and Tirana fight over who has the rightful claim to these phantasmic peoples.
To news reader,
Serb's will never want anyone to rule them ever again. Serb's had Ottoman Turks empire rule them for around 600 year's, and then for 50 year's a Croatian TITO,so stop with the BULLSHIT that they are the ruler's. The war of the 1990's is that they didn't want anymore NO Croatian to rule them anymore and NO Muslim to rule them anymore.
650 year's of last 700 odd year's ruled by Muslim's or Croatian (TITO),stop stating Lies.
No more ruled by Catholics, Communists, or Muslim's.Read the history and stop Bullshitting!
You can't blame Montenegrins for not wanting to relate themselves with serbs!
Serbs are a very nationalistic and problematic nation. They've proved, ever since their arrival to the Balkans, that they cannot coexist peacefully with other people. If serbs cannot dominate over other nations, then they take the "dirty way" i.e. genocide and expelling.
Cosovic is strange anti-Serb and anti-Slav schizophrenic maniac...
The people in Montenegro are Slavs and they are Serbian, there is no doubt about that, history proves it, DNA proves it and our cultures prove it...
What's next, the Montenegrin language which is Serbian and the alphabet is illiryan... This goes beyond a joke and begins to sound insane, like a schizophrenic maniac...
Cosovic refers to the Romans calling the people in the Balkans Illyrians... I think the current day Romans (the EU) have brainwashed Cosovic... What is funny about this is that he thinks the Slavs are blood thirsty killers, oh my... What propaganda... The Serbs never went to turkey and ruled over them and killed them making skull towers from dead Turks as the Turks did to the Serbs... The Serbs never killed 6 million Jews... The Serbs never attacked the Kosovo Albanians, the Kosovo Albanians attacked Serbs, they called this a jihad... The Croatians built jasnovac concentration camp murdering Serbian men, women and children, over 700,000 innocent people dies there at the hands of Croatians.... The Bosnian Muslims also attacked the Serbs, they were used by the US and NATO to destroy Yugoslavia, just as the US used the muhajadeen in Afghanistan to do its dirty work...
Cosovic may need to seek professional psychiatric help or maybe some proper education at a good university will help him...
Cosovic is strange anti-Serb and anti-Slav schizophrenic maniac...
The people in Montenegro are Slavs and they are Serbian, there is no doubt about that, history proves it, DNA proves it and our cultures prove it...
What's next, the Montenegrin language which is Serbian and the alphabet is illiryan... This goes beyond a joke and begins to sound insane, like a schizophrenic maniac...
Cosovic refers to the Romans calling the people in the Balkans Illyrians... I think the current day Romans (the EU) have brainwashed Cosovic... What is funny about this is that he thinks the Slavs are blood thirsty killers, oh my... What propaganda... The Serbs never went to turkey and ruled over them and killed them making skull towers from dead Turks as the Turks did to the Serbs... The Serbs never killed 6 million Jews... The Serbs never attacked the Kosovo Albanians, the Kosovo Albanians attacked Serbs, they called this a jihad... The Croatians built jasnovac concentration camp murdering Serbian men, women and children, over 700,000 innocent people dies there at the hands of Croatians.... The Bosnian Muslims also attacked the Serbs, they were used by the US and NATO to destroy Yugoslavia, just as the US used the muhajadeen in Afghanistan to do its dirty work...
Cosovic may need to seek professional psychiatric help or maybe some proper education at a good university will help him...
You can't blame Montenegrins for not wanting to relate themselves with serbs!
Serbs are a very nationalistic and problematic nation. They've proved, ever since their arrival to the Balkans, that they cannot coexist peacefully with other people.
(news reader, 27 November 2015 16:46)
Wrong on everything. First of all, Montenegro's most recognizable heroes were some of the biggest Serbs in history. I am from Montenegro, and the majority of people there consider themselves to be Serbian. Unfortunately, my people are living oppressed under the Djukanovic tyrannical dictatorship that has tried to force an identity change in Montenegro, but only his cronies and beneficiaries buy into it. The vast majority of the people are Serbs who follow the Serbian Orthodox Church.
Oh and as far as Serbs not being able to live with others, Serbia in the most multi-ethnic country in the region, by far. One day, Montenegro will be part of it!
To news reader,
Serb's will never want anyone to rule them ever again. Serb's had Ottoman Turks empire rule them for around 600 year's, and then for 50 year's a Croatian TITO,so stop with the BULLSHIT that they are the ruler's. The war of the 1990's is that they didn't want anymore NO Croatian to rule them anymore and NO Muslim to rule them anymore.
650 year's of last 700 odd year's ruled by Muslim's or Croatian (TITO),stop stating Lies.
No more ruled by Catholics, Communists, or Muslim's.Read the history and stop Bullshitting!
You can't blame Montenegrins for not wanting to relate themselves with serbs!
Serbs are a very nationalistic and problematic nation. They've proved, ever since their arrival to the Balkans, that they cannot coexist peacefully with other people. If serbs cannot dominate over other nations, then they take the "dirty way" i.e. genocide and expelling.
Oh well, in that case i would have a brand new name for Miroslav Cosovic... Ladies and gentlemen, here is Mr. Agron Kosova from Montenegro!! If you are an Illyrian, I am an eskimo, would have said my best friend :)
Actually you are the living proof why no one wants to be affiliated with serbs. Your nationalistic rants are getting old. Always the same BS with you. You are exactly the kind of people that we need to get rid of in all our countries and everyone is ashamed of they have em.
I dont know if I should thank you for always reminding of who the real enemy is or if I should be sad, that people like you really exist. And by enemy I`m not talking about Serbia, I`m talking about primitive warmongering brainwashed nationalistic kids.
My ancestors are from Montenegro. I am a Serb. For every hundred Serbs I know like this, I know maybe 2 people who think what this writer says.
One can be Montenegrin and Serb at the same time. There are numerous references in both literatures to it.
Montenegro's greatest leader, organizer, liberator, national hero and greatest poet Njegos said clearly Montenegrins are Serbs.
Montenegrins speak Serbian with little dialect of significance and use the Cyrillic alphabet
Montenegrins and Serbs share a common mythology which is a significant barometer of resemblance.
Montengrins celebrate Serbian Slava (only Serbs celebrate Slava in the world). They are baptized in Serbian Orthodox churches, attend Sunday school in them, marry in them and are buried in Serbian Orthodox graveyards.
Montenegrins and Serbs look alike. And they understand one another like no two other people in the Balkans. They are brothers and always were and always will be (irregardless of temporary Djukanovic's who come and go)
In order to create and sustain a nation state one must create national mythologies to differentiate oneself. When you hear Serbian TV all day long, and your sick go to Serbian hospitals, and your kids attend Serbian universities, and then go off to Belgrade to find work, it's pretty obvious you don't really have a separate identity and need to make one up (just like a lot of your neighbors)
They've proved, ever since their arrival to the Balkans, that they cannot coexist peacefully with other people........
(news reader, 27 November 2015 16:46)
Ah of course, the Illyrians. Now I'd love to see a bunch of revisionists from Podgorica and Tirana fight over who has the rightful claim to these phantasmic peoples.
Finally Montenegrins are starting to realize they are actually Albanians which were assimilated by force hundreds of years ago. All the old time Montenegrins know this is true but for whatever reason they hide it. If they were really Serbs they would of stood together.Be proud to be Albanian!!! I am!!!!
Who really cares? Is it so important to either the Montenegrins or the Serbs whether or not the former are really the latter in disguise?Going back 1000 years, my family name (it isn't Taylor by the way) is French, but I'm as British as crap weather.
Anyone interested in the truth has to look at the science. I've seen a little, and the Balkans - like lots of regions - are all mixed up. But there are predominant haplogroups, and if Wikipedia is to be believed, Montenegrins do tend to cluster with Hercegovinians, Dalmatians, Albanians, Macedonians and probably a few other Balkan groups. It's interesting: for example, one can see where Dalmatian Croats are actually more closely related to Bosnian Serbs than Croats from Zagreb. So maybe we can't rely on everything the historians tell us about the ethnic breakdown of the Balkans.
Today's society, unfortunately, is a very fertile ground for quacks and prophets of hatred. Not so long ago, the Cosovic's of this world would never be the news material. Paradoxically, the more insane their blabber is, the more attention it gets. Debating with Cosovic, of course, is pointless. One can only wonder which part of the 620000-strong populus is MiroSLAV referring to.
Half of Slavic population in ex Yugoslavia have Illyrian genes this is case with Croats, Slovenians and Bosnians. When we talk for Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians and people from sanxhak they have not just Illyrian genes but also about half of them they recently were Albanians. During ottoman empire since predication in churches was held in Slavic and Greek language orthodox Albanians were assimilated to Serbian, Slavic population from Montenegro and Macedonia and also to Greek speaking population. This was because Albanian population before converting to Islam was treated like biggest enemy in the ottoman empire. Albanians were forced in order to survive either to convert to Slavic or Greek speaking and save religion or convert to Muslims and save national identity. Orthodox Albanians were converted to Slavic and Greeks and Catholic Albanians were converted to Muslims. Albanians (Illyrians) through the history because of empires like Roman, Russian and Ottoman who destroyed them and favored others they lost territory and population but the genes are there and one day these genes will do their job.
Instead of ad hominem attacks, one has to look at his arguments and history as written by independent scholars, not Balkan biased academics.
Whether we like it or not, the Adriatic an Ionian coasts from Preveza to Kotor have been mainly populated by people of Albanian stock since immemorial times. Albania has provided the human bulk for successive empires (byzantine, roman, serbian and ottoman), that is why Albanians are today muslims, orthodox and christians. Most of them kept their language, some were assimilated by Greece (arvanitas) making the bulk of the greek nation, (by 1820 in Greece Albanian was more widely spoken than Greek) some were assimilated by Serbia and some by Turkey. Coastal villages of Ulcinj, Bar, Kotor and to some degree Budva were predominantly albanian and modern day montenegrins have way more in common with albanian mountain people than serbs of mainland Serbia.
For nationalistic / traditional reasons Serbia refuses to take into account the existence of albanians as native to the Balkans (probably inferiority complex of the latecomers to the area) and has created a false history and narrative that leads to an aggressive policy of war and false propaganda by denying the right to existence of albanians and ultimately living in denial of reality. Admitting that Albanians are native to the Balkans does not make Serb claims less legitimate in the area, it would rather give them a leading role as mutual trust will be restored.
The Romans had a nasty habit of naming peoples and territories in order to obscure native peoples and their countries. Consider the name Palestine for the territory where the Jews are indigenous.
You don't have to do much research to learn that the Romans named several groups of people in the Balkans as "Illyrians". This was simply the name that they used for all of the people who lived in the Balkans. There isn't a shred of legitimate evidence pointing to one specific nationality over the other as the origin of Illyrians. It's similar to calling a group of people in the Scandanavian regions Northerners. All other theories are approaching Lord of the Rings territory.
It is funny with srbs.
On one hand they say when they come to ballkan on illyrian lands ,there were no illyrians .
on the other hand today they without shame ,clame to have illyrian genes too.
then if no illyrian were there when you occupied there land,as you say here everyday,then where did you get there genes ?? on the trees ?
@ ataman
On first question, I can give you more than 900 Albanian toponyms and about 300 Serb toponyms in Albania. Serb and Albanian toponyms have been completely eradicated in Greece through state policy which is not the case in Albania. There are/was way more Serb toponyms in Greece than Albania.
On second question, I invite you to read the latest book from Oxford researcher Noel Malcolm “Agents of empire”. He talks about Albania during 13 to 17th century, as researched in the Vatican archives. You would see that all corsairs and cities from Preveza to Budva.
Albania has a fascinating history, her problem is that it is written by her neighbors. Albanian were mostly good fighters and paid only lip service to religion which is the only cultural institution in those times with written heritage.
All Balkan people have lots of Illyrian genes in common, however all peoples in the Balkans speak a common Slavic language which has no connection with Illyrian & their arrival in 6th century is well recorded in history. Albanians are the only ones who speak a different language and there is no record in known history showing their arrival in the Balkans.
Also, during the ottoman occupation the only people in Balkans that truly resisted the Turks were Albanians. Most major and minor battles against Turks were fought by the Albanians, this is a historical fact. But they don’t get much credit as we often wrongly portray them as Muslims and the Hoxha regime did not do them a favor.
Dear Albanians, all of Leonida's comments are full of hate. It's not ignorance, it's purposeful hate. Recognize it for what it is and please do not engage him as that will only encourage his psychotic rants.
(Genti,
Indeed.Anyone challenging Albanian lies,propaganda and fantasies is a hater.You guys are out of a comic book.
Good boy you learned who the Montenegrin's are. Yes the Montenegrin's are http://www.slovio.com/slavic-gene/Haplogroup_I.png Haplogroup I. Slavs are Haplogroup R1a yes you have relatives but they are not Serbs.
The people in Montenegro are Slavs and they are Serbian, there is no doubt about that, history proves it, DNA proves it and our cultures prove it...
(Nikola Novakovic, 27 November 2015 16:04)
Please provide the following proof showing that the people of Montenegro are Serbians:
Greeks owe their freedom, existence from blood & flesh to the Albanian stock not to mention their national costumes and Heroes.
(carpe diem, 1 December 2015 17:01) # Comment link
The Greeks don't owe anything to a cowardly Albanian race. The Greek uprising in 1821 was begun by Alexandros Ypsilantis and continued with Theodoros Kolocotronis.
In 1912 Albania was granted a state where the Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians and Romanians did most of the fighting against Turkish Albanian forces. The so called Western nations led by Austro-Hungary ordered the Serbs to retreat from Durrazo and the Greeks to stop the advance towards Istanbul.
Obviously, Carpe Diem is a little bit lying since there are no serious Serbian scholars who deny that Albos are indigeneous in the Balkans.
(Drymades,
If there are so many modern historians claiming what you say -which considers that Albanians have any relation to ancient peoples-then show me at least one such.A modern one, who is still alive and not Albanian or half-Albanian, like that Mathieu Aref.
Be proud to be Albanian!!! I am!!!!
(Ulqini aka ulcinj, 27 November 2015 19:41)
Be proud there are no Serbians and Montenegrins who are "Albanians"
Pastrovici, one of the largest and oldest clans in Montenegro and has nothing whatsoever to do with Albania So take your stupid propaganda elsewhere.
“Dalmatian Croats are actually more closely related to Bosnian Serbs than Croats from Zagreb”
(Nenad)
That makes sense, because if you read history, you’ll see that Bosnian Serbs, especially Hercegovinians, were majority Vlachs (Romanized Illyrians) who spoke Vlach (Vulgar Latin) before being assimilated into Slavic Serbs. Vlachs have the same ethnic stock as most Albanians, Croatians, Bosnians, Romanians etc. and their language is similar to Romanian, both adopted during the Roman Empire. Vlachs are still present throughout Illyria, from the Dalmatian coast and Hercegovina, through Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia and Epirus. The “Serbian” part of Montenegro, near Hercegovina is of the same non-Slavic Illyrian-Vlach stock.
“they recently were Albanians”
(Beni)
Beni, you are exactly correct. All Montenegrins know this, eventhough some don’t have the courage to admit it. Most of Old Montenegro spoke Albanian before Serbian spies like Njegos started baptizing them with Serbian names and teaching them Serbian through church. The evidence is all over, from the Illyrian topography all across the country (Ulqin, Tivar, Kotor, Nikshi) to their medieval history (rulers: Balshaj/Balsic, Crnojevic who fought for an independent Albania) to the Montenegrin culture which is exactly the same as the Albanian Malesor culture. The center of Montenegrin culture and heritage has always been Shkodra (in the heart of Albanian Malesia) and not Belgrade.
Albania has provided the human bulk for successive empires (byzantine, roman, serbian and ottoman), that is why Albanians are today muslims, orthodox and christians. Most of them kept their language, some were assimilated by Greece (arvanitas) making the bulk of the greek nation, (by 1820 in Greece Albanian was more widely spoken than Greek)
(carpe diem
I have no real ambition to emulate your diatribe-long nonsensical comment in the B92 forum, but let me make a couple of comments: There has never been any Albanian national conscience as such a thing emerged just in 1878 with the Prizren (Kosovo) League by all means fabricated by foreign powers and religious propaganda.During the Turkish domination there was no Albanian nation. The inhabitants of today’s Albania were distinguished by their faith.This is why Albanians preferred the Turkish rather than the Albanian conscience, unfamiliar to them. Moreover during the Greek-Ottoman and Balkan wars the Muslims of Albania fought dynamically ranged among the orders of the Ottoman Army.
Arvanites have nothing to do with Albanians.They started emigrating into Greece after the Turkish incursions into Balkans.Arvanites were less 10% of the total population of Greece in 19th century, 200.000 out of a total population of 2.000.000. This is attested by the eminent Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34, search for it on books.google.com.
To make a general statement like that is very difficult to substantiate one way or the other however when looking at someone from Serbia, in many cases they do resemble Russians on the other hand when looking at someone from Montenegro you often see a Mediterranean/Greek look about them. So figure that one out
Why do they speak Serbian then???
(Zoran..Sydney Australia, 27 November 2015 23:31)
====================
They call it Montenegrin these days. Where was this language before?
There are two unanswered questions to your theory, Carpe Diem
1) The lack of toponyms with Albanian names, same situation what Romanians in Transylvania do face.
2) The complete lack of seafarer skills. Before 18th century there wasn't much word about Albanian pirates. On the other hand Illyrians (as they used to be called) were feared pirates of antiquity.
The most plausible answer is that both Romanians and Albanians are related to Thracians mixed with Roman settlers and different ethnic groups during barbaric invasions. This is not a perfect answer but makes some things having more sense.
It could be even that Albanians are composed from different groups who adopted a common language (Hungarians did the same).
"Illyrians" could rather fit the Dalmatians. Interestingly, the Glagolitic script was called "Illyrian writing" and it is still quite widely used in Croatia. I did see Glagolitic roadsigns all over Istria.
Serbs, Montenegrins, Romanians, Bulgarians, are basically the same people: a mix of thracian, latin, slavs and celtic people, of the same faith. Orthodox. Part of the byzantine empire. The differences were exploited, because otherwise we wouldn't have the nations today, would we? Those ethnic elements are mixed in different ways, but it's enough to see that we basically look the same, have the same way of life, we had the same alphabet until the 19th centuries...I don't mean to offend you, it's just the truth.
If there are so many modern historians claiming what you say -which considers that Albanians have any relation to ancient peoples-then show me at least one such.
(Leonidas, 29 November 2015 18:04)
Well, you don't have to be a genius to understand that there are really two options only:
A. Albanians are aliens that came to Earth from space; or
B. Albanians, like you, me, and every other human alive today, came from people living before them and eventually from the most ancient form of homo sapiens
So, unless you are claiming (A), the only possible explanation is (B)!
"Arvanites have nothing to do with Albanians. They started emigrating into Greece after the Turkish incursions into Balkans."
(Leonidas)
Oh really? So why don't you tell us where did these "mysterious" Arvanites emigrate from? And why do they speak Albanian? Idiot.
And by the way, Arvanites have been documented living as far south as the Peloponnese since at least the 1100s, hundreds of years before the Ottomans invaded Greece.
Dear Albanians, all of Leonida's comments are full of hate. It's not ignorance, it's purposeful hate. Recognize it for what it is and please do not engage him as that will only encourage his psychotic rants.
Montenegrins are serbs.....their puny population of 500,000 world wide that don't think so then they need help//////these so called Montenegrins are a minority in Montenegro lol with 250,000.....within 10 years their population world wide will go from the 500,000 to 200,000.....then 0.......
Montenegrins are serbs.....their puny population of 500,000 world wide that don't think so then they need help//////these so called Montenegrins are a minority in Montenegro lol with 250,000.....within 10 years their population world wide will go from the 500,000 to 200,000.....then 0.......
(funny, 27 November 2015 22:00)
You start with "Montenegrins are Serbs" and then you go on as if they are a different population from Serbs! Unless you're saying that the number of Serbs worldwide will go to 0, in which case you do have a point :)
Albanians were converted to Slavic and Greeks and Catholic Albanians were converted to Muslims. Albanians (Illyrians) through the history because of empires like Roman, Russian and Ottoman who destroyed them and favored others they lost territory and population but the genes are there and one day these genes will do their job.
(Beni, 28 November 2015 09:27)
Absolute rubbish with no historical proof and context. For one thing, part of Montenegro were never invaded by the Ottoman empire so Albanians would never had the opportunity to be "converted" to Serbians.
He is in fact quite correct from a genetic perspective. History needs to be re-written.
I look at my genetic history as an Albanian from Montenegro. I was taught to believe that Albanians were descendants of the original people of the Balkans. Illyrians. I have .05% of Paleo Balkanic. Not even 1 percent. No Altaic Turkic either 0% as some Serbs would have you believe. Red Hair and freckles. Not me personally but some of my relations. More red hair and freckles than some Celtic people I know. How?
Serb Nationalist will say Albanians are from Asia and not even European. Bullshit!!!
According to Gedmatch. Here's my Genetic makeup and both my parents are Albanians from Montenegro.
North_Sea 16.45% Southern Norway
East_Med 16.27% Possibly Greek?
Atlantic 15.28% Cornwall UK
Baltic 15.96% Baltic
West_Med 14.38% Italy Spain?
West_Asian 11.78% Georgia
Eastern_Euro 7.81% Perhaps Slavic or Romanian
Red_Sea 1.49% Red Sea
Southeast_Asian 0.58% Who Knows I think it's Balochistan
Then an orthodox Serb from the United States named Vucic writes to me and says Hey I may be your 4-6 cousin.
It's pretty obvious from your comments that uou shift the goal posts as you move along.You started with your claim that"(arvanitas) making the bulk of the greek nation" to which i replied by saying that " the Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34 put the figure of arvanites in Greece to 10%" which clearly shows either ignorance or lying.Then you proceed with the work of Malkolm to support your illyrian views.What you're not saying is that Malkolm himself has professed ignorance to "when and where Albanians came from".Ataman raised a very important point in his comment which was the fact that Albanians are not seafarers unlike the Illyrians who made their living through sea piracy.As to your claim " Albanians are the first inhabitants of the Balkans dating 9,000 years, with Greeks showing up some 2,000 years late" I would say is nonsense.What gives the Greeks claim to antiquity is the survival of a continuous literary tradition for three and a half millennia, from the earliest Linear B clay tablets baked on Crete to the modern Greek alphabet that has been in use for thousands of years. This continuity lends credence to Greek claims. A single literate civilization has survived.
In the case of Albania,that language only entered the historical stage at a very late date, in the 14th century.That lack of an ancient literary tradition in the Albania language implies to me a fairly recent Albanian "civilization." Ottoman?
This is one of the more interesting discussions in a long time but only in the context of scientific curiosity. The Problem is that you guys are using history for politics and whenever history has been mixed up with current politics people have died. As seen in the last few decades in the Balkans.
I mean how do events, that took place 2000+ yrs ago contribute to our life today?! Except of causing confusion and anger. This is utterly nonsense. We have to accept that there was a huge migration of the peoples and that the concept of Borders was introduced late in human history. Just go a 200 yrs back and you will see that borders between Monarchies or Empires where very volatile. Nations and Nationalisms are a very young concept, people used to belong to families, clans, Kings/Queens, Religions but the only constant was Family. Change of Faith, Kings/Queens or clans was normal and only the family bond remained constant.
My Point is, dont interpret too much in history. Focus on the present and how we are going to live together in the future. I dont believe in Titos Yugoslavia but I believe in a strong South-easy Europe with great diversity and prosperity thru cooperations.
Carpe Diem, There are a lot of writers that disagree with "Ellyrian origin of Albanians". Read: "The Albanian racism towards the neighbours is based on historical falsifications" where Dr. Kpalna Resulli-Burovich, famous albanologist speaks against fabrications of history. "World renown professors and scholars Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Puscariu and many others" also disagree. Here are some Albanian scholars: "Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the illyrian origin of the Albanians. . . Fatos Ljubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others". Do you still believe that those who disagree with you are under influence of Serb-Greek-Macedonian-Russian propaganda?
We should be talking about Albanian Islamic Muslim Terrorists who are not Illyrians but descended from Dagestan and Azerbaijan and Turkey, makes much more sense on why they follow Islam.
Azerbaijan
Empire of the Alexander of the Great, which occupied areas of Ahamenids was collapsed in 323 BC after his death. In northern lands of Azerbaijan inhabited by modern Turks, Caucasian Albania was established in the north and Atropotena in the south in IV century BC.
http://azerbaijans.com/content_353_en.html
DĀḠESTĀN
(Daghestan). The many-faceted relationship between Dāḡestān (ancient Albania), a region in the eastern Caucasus, and Persia since antiquity has yet to be studied as a whole, though there is considerable historical, linguistic, folkloric, literary, and art-historical evidence bearing on it.http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/dagestan
@Drymades
…Carpe Diem is a little bit lying since there are no serious Serbian scholars who deny that Albos are indigeneous in the Balkans…
I have yet to find a Serb scholar that admits that. Look how much time the Serb Academy spent trying to make the case that Albanians come from Caucasia which has been totally debunked yet is widely popular in Serbia today. The other part of Serbia who does not believe this tale are convinced that Albanians came to the area with the Turks.
In a recent interview, Serbia's president Nikolic (granted he is not a scholar..) said that “there is no sign in Kosovo that there were any Albanians prior to 50 years ago.” I repeat prior to 50 years ago. That is going back to 1965. So according to Nikolic, sometime after 1965, 2 million Albanian's suddenly entered Kosovo, even though there is not a single mention of such an event. Furthermore, if 2 million Albanians suddenly, entered Kosovo, wouldn't such a huge shift in population reflect on the next census in Albania proper?
I am saying this, because such stupid lies can only be sold to the Serbs who are still living in total denial of the reality.
Georgevitch, prime minister of Serbia tried to convince the world that Albanians have tails and live in the trees literally!. Vaso Cubrilovic had his nazi style “final solution” for the exterminations of albanians that Milosevic tried to put in practice. What on earth have Albanians done to Serbia that Serbian state is hell bent to exterminate them?
Dimou? I've never heard of him.History is not created by videos,it's created by archaeological relics and historiography and you've got none.Do you really want to know about arvanites? Read what Michael Attaleiates the Greek Byzantine historian has to say on the subject. After all he was writing over 900 years ago he's more credible than any modern one.
If you really want to know about the Albanians I would refer you to a Turkish Ottoman historian(He used the Ottoman archives) - Halil Inalcik “The middle east and the balkans under the ottoman empire essays on economy and society” what he had to say about the Balkans.“Having strategic significance the Vilaeti of Kosovo and the Balkans in general were subjected to a systematic settlement of thousands of Turkic people after the conquest.[..]It is, however, obvious that Ottoman conquests were made to settle there, which were not just temporary adventurous or marauding movements.”He continues “Such places as Serez, Plovdiv, Babadag, Elbasan, Sarajevo, Silistre and Skopje had been rearranged by the uc-begis in such a way to be new Turkish cities“.
I am not going to address the rest of your rant, keep believing you are the son of Socrates.
(carpe diem
Of course you won't it's better to believe some videos than the works of eminent non-Greek historian that I've quoted below.I even gave you the page number.Unlike the Albanians I am the one on record on this site(few times) that I've said no serious historian would ever claim that modern peoples are direct descendants of ancient peoples, at least in terms of DNA. What really matters is continuation (e.g. culture, language, occasionally religion) which ensures the historical sense of an evolving community through time.
"These ideologies of pan-albanianism were created by Enver Hoxha and its main aim was to appropriate Ancient Greek history as Albanian.No wonder few Albanians on this site aired such views as "Greek stole Albanian history" etc."
Absolutely and TITO was the main driver as he created false educational books and curriculum in the former Yugoslavia and creating literally false nations and ideology. FYROM is a prime example where the entire population has latched on the Greek Macedonian identity while diminishing the fact they are either Serbians, Bulgarians and to a lesser extent Greeks. A "Bosnian Muslim" nationality was also carved out. His ultimate goal was to try to expand the Yugoslav federation to include present day Albania and Bulgaria and even Macedonia Greece.
Well, you don't have to be a genius to understand that there are really two options only:
A. Albanians are aliens that came to Earth from space; or
B. Albanians, like you, me, and every other human alive today, came from people living before them and eventually from the most ancient form of homo sapiens
So, unless you are claiming (A), the only possible explanation is (B)!
(icj1,
Option A, Albanian Idiot from outer space with numerology problems.
leo,
I am not shifting goals, you asked for scholar names I provided. Now, if you think that Cavalli-Sforza proffesors at California Stanford University, considered the authority today in genes and population and other European known scholars are idiots, and you know better, I give up. I haven't seen anything on your side to substantiate your claims that you are descendants of ancient Greece.
I also provided you some links with your own modern history so you stop living in denial, thinking you are son of Socrates.
How do you explain that at this ethnographic map of Balkans established by French Guillaume Lejean in 1861, Greece was clearly an Albanian populated province ?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Balk.Ethno-1861.jpg
How about Fallermayer findings?
If Albanians- Arvanitas didn't fight for the freedom of Greece there would be no Greece of today - neither the notion of a Greek Nation since Greek is a religious definition not of a Nation. Hellas would have been found only in the history books as city- states interaction.
Albanian blessing for Greece became a curse on the expense of Albanian population and motherland. Greeks owe their freedom, existence from blood & flesh to the Albanian stock not to mention their national costumes and Heroes.
What the Greeks of today don't have is the vitality, resilience and strength of the people they are in debt to and massacred, deported, annihilated with no mercy.
I think Albanians came from Caucasus and along the way added more to their group, and then finally mixed with tribes in Balkans. That can be a reason why their language is so screwed up
(mycomment, 1 December 2015 03:03)
AZERBAIJAN and
DĀGESTAN.
There were 26 kins of the Albanian tribal union. Strabon wrote that "they get hardly in contact with each other." Each of these tribes had their own language, but because of the Turkic tribes were leading one, of course, in Caucasian Albania Turkish was the general communication language. http://www.azerbaijans.com/content_353_en.html
(Daghestan). The many-faceted relationship between Dāḡestān (ancient Albania), a region in the eastern Caucasus, and Persia since antiquity has yet to be studied as a whole, though there is considerable historical, linguistic, folkloric, literary, and art-historical evidence bearing on it.
http://www.azerbaijans.com/content_353_en.html
balkan nationalism is such cancer for the brain from croatia serbia montenegro to macedonia just a bunch of irrational maniac big ego agressive tactics who choose ideology over facts you lot are all basket cases
was half Serb, half Slovak. He is one of the most celebrated Hungarian poets, so he is ethnic Hungarian.
Балшић family was Albanian. Than while Мара Кастриотић-Црноjевић was of course Serb, her brother was Albanian. And there is a famous brandy bearing his name.
Steve Jobs wasn't Lebanese. He was 100% American. Who cares that his physical ancestors are Lebanese.
Everyone knows the name of the biggest Ethiopian-African poet, arguably the biggest poet on the Planet Earth ever. Don't say that you don't know his name.
I just say: Abraham Hannibal. Who's his great-grandson?
Interestingly at one point the nature does "adjust" even the physical look.
"Mixed" couples of different races after few decades start to look similar.
Two madmen at the end of the list of good guys.
Димитрије Стојаковић
has nothing to do with Serbs. He was a Hungarian madman who made Hungary more nazi than Germany was.
Erdoğan is NOT Georgian.
Erdoğan allegedly said in 2003, I'm a Georgian, my family is a Georgian family which migrated from Batumi to Rize.
However, in a 2014 televised interview on the NTV news network, he said, You wouldn't believe the things they have said about me. They have said I am Georgian even with much uglier things, they have called me Armenian, but I am Turkish.
Who's your daddy, Erdoğan? I hope, the Turkish military.
Monetengrins in the eastern part of the country are hablogroup E-V13. This hablogroup came to southern balkans about 5000yrs ago via todays Libya/Syria. Its the hablogroup that makes up most of albanians at 45%, greeks at 27%, mak slavs at 23% & montenegrins at 27%. So basically, anyones dna who is E, is not of Slavic ancestry. The E-V13 were the illyrians, thracians n greek tribes who spoke latin and became slavs.
Serbs by far in large are hablogroup i2a, at 45%. The I hablogroup began in the balkans 25000yrs ago, spread through parts of europe (especially north, hence why those folks towards norway etc are also tall). Later i2a settlers in todays Czech along wth pure slavic dna R1a, came to bosnia area n mixed wth the old i2a of that area and spread. Other i2a n r1a Slavs came from ukraine and filled bulgaria, northern greece and macedonia. So true serb tribe came from other direction, while those who came from ukraine were not serb slavs although they carried same dna.
Bottom line, if you test and find out youre E-V13, youre not of the original serb stock, instead we are old settlers of the balkans who became Serbs anytime after the 7th century. Vasojevici, Bjelopavlici, Kuca, Piperi are all E-V13, and most trace their roots to Kosovo, which is the epicenter of E-V13 in Europe.
The center of Montenegrin culture and heritage has always been Shkodra (in the heart of Albanian Malesia) and not Belgrade.
(Genti, 28 November 2015 19:19)
Rubbish again and more Albanian propaganda. Albanians love stealing history from the Italians, Greeks and or Serbians. Lake Skadar is a Serbian name, not Albanian, Kosovo and Metohija is a Serbian name, Kosovo in Serbia proper, parts of Metohija in both Serbia and Montenegro. The founding nations of Serbia are Rascia and Zeta, Serbia and Montenegro. Durres is Durrazo, a famous Italian and Venetian port, zero Albanian history lined to this port city. The examples go on and on, Albanian historical roots are in Dagestan and Azerbaijan and Turkey if you fishing to find yourselves.
The cities of Nis - Rudnica - Pec - Prizren - Veles make roughly a triangle, with much of Kosovo inside. That is the area I was referring to. It is the disputed area, precisely like the Transylvania for Romanians.
There is no trace of Vlach presence in Transylvania before 13th Century and same about Albanian presence in Kosovo before 14th Century. Toponyms included.
More of the problem of Albanian pirates during the early middle ages: where are pirate hideouts, castles, safe havens, support cities south of Kotor?
Only one is there: Ulcinj. It is sufficiently Albanian and sufficiently pirate - but it's relatively new. The Albanian naval commanders of Ottoman Empire started appear around 18th century, correct?
Dalmatinci fit all the Illyrian stereotype very well and in addition the local traditional writing (glagolica) used to be called Illyrian writing.
In any case here is an other side of that Illyrian controversy:
http://tinyurl.com/ht9c3xv
If that's the case, the Illyrian-Albanian relationship is quite wilder thing to imagine than the Magyar-Shumerian, at least I can easily swear in Shumerian.
The Magyar-Shumerian relationship is considered pseudo-science. While Hittite -Slavonic relationship is proven, it is not being exposed: Hattusa is in Turkey.
If you are Illyrians - than we are Shumerians and Hittites. Let's be fair.
@leonidas my greek friend,
I don’t need to Google Von Hahn; looks like you didn’t read him. Let me summarize his main ideas for you:
1-The Epirotes and Macedonians were, in Strabo’s time , un-Greek or barbarian
2-Epirotes, Macedonians and Illyrians are kindred races.
3-Illyrian = Pelasgian in a wider sense
4-The present day division of the Albanians , the Tosks and Guegs represent the Epirotes and Illyrians. Pelasgians therefore is regarded by him as convertible with Illyrian and that with Gueg and Tosk of present day Albania.
5-In the view of Von Hahn there are strong presumptions that the Illyrian language was Albanian
And since we are at scholars, why don’t you look up Fallmerayer, the real authority on Greece. Let see what he wrote in 1830:
“…The race of the Hellenes has been wiped out in Europe. Physical beauty, intellectual brilliance, innate harmony and simplicity, art, competition, city, village, the splendour of column and temple — indeed, even the name has disappeared from the surface of the Greek continent.... Not the slightest drop of undiluted Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of present-day Greece.[7]…”
Carpe
1-The Epirotes and Macedonians were, in Strabo’s time ,un-Greek or barbarian
If you want to convince me (and the world) that Macedonians were not Greek because Demosthenes called them barbarian, first you have to convince me (and the world) that:
1. Aristogeiton was not Greek because Demosthenes called him a barbarian
2.Demosthenes was not Greek because Aeschines called him a barbarian
3. The Eleans were not Greek because Stratonicus called them barbarians
4. The Thessalians were not Greek because Hegesander called them barbarians.
5. The Aeoleans were not Greek because Prodicus called them barbarians.
2-Epirotes, Macedonians and Illyrians are kindred races.
3-Illyrian = Pelasgian in a wider sense
These ideologies of pan-albanianism were created by Enver Hoxha and its main aim was to appropriate Ancient Greek history as Albanian.No wonder few Albanians on this site aired such views as "Greek stole Albanian history" etc.
4-The present day division of the Albanians the Tosks and Guegs represent the Epirotes and Illyrians. Pelasgians therefore is regarded by him as convertible with Illyrian and that with Gueg and Tosk of present day Albania.
Where is archaelogical evidence and historiography?
5-In the view of Von Hahn there are strong presumptions that the Illyrian language was Albanian.
The Austrian Scholars Schumacher and Matzinger who researched the theory that the Albanian language has its roots in Ancient Illyria found no evidence at all.
@leo
Read "Genes, People and Languages" by prominent genetics professor Cavalli-Sforza. Albanians are the first inhabitants of the Balkans dating 9,000 years, with Greeks showing up some 2,000 years later (p 163). On page 164 is the tree of IE languages, Albanian is the first, oldest branch.
Read "The modern Greek language" by E.M. Geldart p 128-137. He says: The notion that exist today in Greece that Albanians are descendants of Pelasgians is not far from the truth. Then explains in details how you can find in Albanian traces of Sanskrit, lost in Greek and Latin.
E. Schneider talks about archaic one syllable words, counting over 700 in Albanian, while other languages have only a few. For American Albanologist, Eric Hamp, there is no doubt about the Illyrian-Albanian link.
Following scholars think all that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians:
Rudolf Virchow, Eugene Pittard, Edwin Pears, Robert D'Angely, Giuseppe Crispi, Edmund Martin Geldart, Enzo Gatti, Leibniz, von Hahn, Edouard Schneider, Louis Beonlew, Ludwig von Thalloczy, Friedrich Max Muller, Edwin Jacques, Ferdinand Schevill, George F. Williams, Edward Gibbon, Stuart Mann, Eric P. Hamp, Gustav Meyer, Maximilian Lambertz, Theodor Mommsen, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, etc. "There is very little dispute among serious (that is, non-Greek, non-Macedonian and non-Serb) scholars that the Albanians are an ancient people, the descendants of the Illyrians or (as a small minority insists) the Thracians. Dr Sam Vaknin.
leo,
I am not shifting goals, you asked for scholar names I provided. Now, if you think that Cavalli-Sforza proffesors at California Stanford University, considered the authority today in genes and population and other European known scholars are idiots, and you know better, I give up.
Since you've refused to answer my questions and started talking about genetics have a look at the following recent world ancestry link and tell me where do you see any genetic links between Greeks and Albanians.
http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/
BTW It's very insulting to call an arvanite Albanian.The christian orthodox arvanites joined the Greek revolution whereas the Albanian muslims fought on the side of the Ottomans and committed many atrocities.Hence the name Turko-Albanian.
You know what's cowardly genius, trying to tell a Montenegrin he is not Serb.
(Jugoslavija, 2 December 2015 20:44)
Ok, fine. But then again so is calling other people all kinds of names. You talk in such absolute terms as if you've been living in the Balkans for the past 7 thousand years and you know who had sex with who for all these thousands of years and you witnessed all of this with your own eyes. Nobody knows for sure how we're all mixed together. There were wars, rapes, and peaceful times where people married those geographically close them. Nobody knows with certainty what the f...ck happened. Yet you and many like you not only think you know for sure but you can give exact GPS coordinates.And then you get mad when other people do the same exact thing you're doing but to Montenegrins. Chill out dude.
Thracia is neither fitting inside Enver Hoxha nor Nicolae Ceausescu head because it was a bit south and a bit east than they wanted. So "Illyiria" and "Dacia" was born. But otherwise no contest.
So there it is, Beni - your text without Hoxha and without Ceausescu.
"Half of Slavic population in ex Yugoslavia have Illyrian or Thracian genes this is case with Serbs, Croats, Slovenians and Bosnians. When we talk for Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians and people from sanxhak they have not just Illyrian or Thracian genes, but also about half of Albanians were recently Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians. During Ottoman empire since service in churches was held in Church-Slavonic and Greek language, Orthodox Albanians were (still) assumed to be Serbian, Slavic population from Montenegro and Macedonia and also to Greek speaking population. This was because Albanian population before converting to Islam was treated like biggest enemy in the Ottoman empire. Albanians were encouraged in order to survive either to convert to Slavic or Greek speaking and save religion - or convert to Islam and save national identity. Serbs population, too, was encouraged to convert to Islam. Orthodox Albanians were assumed to be Slavonic or Greek. Catholic Albanians were converted to Islam. Albanians (largely Thracians) fought through the history empires like Hellenic Cities, Romans, Ottomans and to some degree Russians. Thracia lost territory - but the genes are there."
In order to create and sustain a nation state one must create national mythologies to differentiate oneself. When you hear Serbian TV all day long, and your sick go to Serbian hospitals, and your kids attend Serbian universities, and then go off to Belgrade to find work, it's pretty obvious you don't really have a separate identity and need to make one up (just like a lot of your neighbors)
(Guest, 28 November 2015 05:26)
Actually, that goes the same for the Croats although the Montenegrins are much closer cousins to the Serbs. Albanians are a completely different race and you can spot them a mile away. It is interesting to note there are a lot of redhead Albanians, that one is a mystery, they mush have raped and pillaged a boat full of Scottish/Irish women in an Adriatic port.
For our friend Leonidas the Greek aka the Arvanitas aka the Albanian.
Nikos Dimou the great Greek writer gave a very interesting interview recently for the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/arts/design/24abroad.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=2&adxnnlx=1436047412-svOKX94RAAGA1d5aS21kpg
“It’s the fault of a German,” Mr. Dimou said about Greek pride in this cause. He was referring to Johann Winckelmann, the 18th-century German art historian whose vision of an ancient Greece “populated by beautiful, tall, blond, wise people, representing perfection,” as Mr. Dimou put it, was in a sense imposed on the country to shape modern Greek identity.
“We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.”
Look at this ethnographic map of Balkans established by French Guillaume Lejean in 1861, Greece was clearly an Albanian populated province by that time.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Balk.Ethno-1861.jpg
Watch also this video from mainstream skainews greek tv, it is a superb documentary about the history of Greece. Greece spoke mainly Albanian in the 18th century.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M99ze151HvA
I am not going to address the rest of your rant, keep believing you are the son of Socrates.
I think Albanians came from Caucasus and along the way added more to their group, and then finally mixed with tribes in Balkans. That can be a reason why their language is so screwed up
I am not a scholar, Carpe Diem, but for few largely logistic reasons I am strongly for the Thracian origin. Besides, it's the only what does not raise more questions than answers.
I do not think, this does make the majority of Albanians upset. Today, "Thracian" vs. "Illyrian" is largely just a curiosity. Both groups are there for a while, at least as far as probably 3000 years.
Besides, as far as my imagination, Illyrians were largely coastal, Thracians largely mountain people.
In exchange Albanians should learn a bit more about proto-Slavonic Hittites and some agglutinative-speaking cultures of antiquity. We, too, did not came from a cave out of nowhere (at least not in last 10000 years). Before that everyone came from caves.
Jugoslavia, nobody in the Balkans lacks the ability and will to fight. Otherwise we wouldn't have had all these wars. This hotblooded prevalence for violence and war in the Balkans is the real cowardice and that includes all of us. Even yourself, that are so quick to point your finger at others; that is nothing more but verbal violence. That too is an expression of cowardice.
Nenad : “So maybe we can't rely on everything the historians tell us about the ethnic breakdown of the Balkans.”
Not only about ethnical but all the rest of the issues too! Because if you lie once you have to lie all the time and this rule has no exceptions. If you place an event in the ancient times quite a few will care about it. But if the same event is placed in the medieval times things change drastically. As for the happlogroups that you mentioned I wonder what for have they divided the Arian R happlogroup so that it looks like two separate groups now ? Wasn’t it made to further divide peoples and not to let the new technology reveal the truth ? Why R1a and R1b Slavic happlogroups weren’t marked in a way to demonstrate their unity ? Why not have a formula that would not didvide but unite peoples? Technically it has no problems. Another reason why the R1 and R1b has been artificially divided was to avoid questions of how came that most of the western Europe have Slavic routes of R1b branch. Only the New Chronology of Anatoly Fomenko gives well documented explanations to all those strange things in the history.
Excellent and concise, Ataman. Albos, stop repeating Hoxha's fairy tales and listen to this man/woman. I would only add that there were hundreds of Serbian, Bulgarian, and Greek schools in the 17th century in Albania, Ataman, so it's not just an issue of 'lack of Albanian toponyms'. The argument goes that there were hundreds of Serbs, Greeks, and Bulgarians living in Albania in the late middle ages. Funny enough, Albania's only Unesco world heritage sites have all been built by either Slavs or Greeks. For who? Who used to worship in those churches besides obviously the indigenous Albanians, assuming that there were any? Obviously, Carpe Diem is a little bit lying since there are no serious Serbian scholars who deny that Albos are indigeneous in the Balkans. Achtung, Albos, please read carefully the above smart remarks, my weekend time is of extreme value and I expect you to be grateful to this Greek here who would typically avoid writing such a long essay. Obviously, Albos became the major demographic factor in Kosovo only during the Ottoman rule. For obvious reasons, would have said Chomsky đŸ˜Š
You are correct, except that the 'our monkey climbed down the tree 10 years earlier than yours' argument is being used by all sides to support serious-looking political claims.
I am extremely disappointed seeing that because these claims are made by politicians in lieu of professionalism. It is very cheap and it's only a pretense. The real goal is of course to hold on power. But masses still seem to be easy to manipulate with all this.
Economic-political mafia is omni-present and it became the establishment.
My opinion is that the root cause of a lot of problems is the disaster called 'public education'. That disaster started in the States somewhere around mid-70s.
They not only not fix that broken system - they even export it. The education problem does trigger that the political establishment is essentially untouchable.
Unfortunately much of this madness is exported under the pretense of 'democratic liberal' ideas. It causes harm not only because it is what it is, but because people see the devastation and many of them as a result became hostile to anything what could have the slightest reference to 'democracy' or 'liberalism'.
It's like comparing the struggle for worker's or human rights with Enver Hoxha.
Of course, E.H. just pretended to act 'in interest of workers'.
By the way: I recall both Margaret Thatcher and China supporting Pol Pot against Vietnamese - just because Soviet Union supported VietNam.
@ Leonidas, I don't know any not because there aren't any but most probably because this is a topic I'm not even interested in. My history books were all fabricated by quasi-scholars, the same people who are fabricating the texts which are used today in our schools. Both Greek and Turkish governments have recently asked Albo gvt to ammend those text books. Aref is a clown, a drivelling idiot. But hey, I meant what I wrote, no major Serbian scholar has ever denied that Albos are indigenous in the Balkans.
Well, you don't have to be a genius to understand that there are really two options only:
A. Albanians are aliens that came to Earth from space; or
B. Albanians, like you, me, and every other human alive today, came from people living before them and eventually from the most ancient form of homo sapiens
So, unless you are claiming (A), the only possible explanation is (B)!
(icj1,
Your comment is a textbook example of an idiotic reductio ad absurdum.I've asked a simple question to the poster who claimed that many historians regard modern Albanians as descendants of the ancient ones to name me one such historian who claimed as such.I've always know that it's too difficult for you to understand my postings.
Everyone here is so sure of their own position about history that has happened more than 2000 years ago. As if you have a time lapse video on your iPhone and all you need to do is hit play and there you have it. The only thing that we know for sure, is that there were many wars, and with that came a lot of rapes. So believe it or not we all have common genes we share. You disect anyone in the Balkans and you'll find a piece from almost all of the current ethnic groups in them. The only thing that changed is that some 200 years ago Western Europe introduced the idea of nationalism in the Balkans and now have nationalities but the Balkans are the laughing stock of the world. Which is a shame because we didn't have a 100 years wars in the Balkans, Western Europe did. Now we can barely live which other. Part of it is also religion. Take religion away and 75 % of the problems are gone. Nobody can threaten eternal damnation if you don't become defender of God and country by not hating on other ethnicities, if religion is not around. Yet people cling to it for some reason.
Jugoslavia, nobody in the Balkans lacks the ability and will to fight. Otherwise we wouldn't have had all these wars. This hotblooded prevalence for violence and war in the Balkans is the real cowardice and that includes all of us. Even yourself, that are so quick to point your finger at others; that is nothing more but verbal violence. That too is an expression of cowardice.
(J, 2 December 2015 01:38)
You know what's cowardly genius, trying to tell a Montenegrin he is not Serb.
Thracia is neither fitting inside Enver Hoxha nor Nicolae Ceausescu head because it was a bit south and a bit east than they needed. Illyiria and Dacia was changed for them on purpose. But otherwise no contest.
So there it is, Beni - your text without Hoxha and without Ceausescu.
Half of Slavic population in ex Yugoslavia have Illyrian or Thracian genes this is case with Serbs, Croats, Slovenians and Bosnians. When we talk for Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians and people from sanxhak they have not just Illyrian or Thracian genes, but also about half of Albanians were recently Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians. During Ottoman empire since service in churches was held in Church-Slavonic and Greek language, Orthodox Albanians were (still) assumed to be Serbian, Slavic population from Montenegro and Macedonia and also to Greek speaking population. This was because Albanian population before converting to Islam was treated like biggest enemy in the Ottoman empire. Albanians were encouraged in order to survive either to convert to Slavic or Greek speaking and save religion - or convert to Islam and save national identity. Serbs population, too, was encouraged to convert to Islam. Orthodox Albanians were assumed to be Slavonic or Greek. Catholic Albanians were converted to Islam. Albanians (largely Thracians) fought through the history empires like Hellenic Cities, Romans, Ottomans and to some degree Russians. Thracia lost territory - but the genes are there.
Leonidas: "I've asked a simple question to the poster who claimed that many historians regard modern Albanians as descendants of the ancient ones to name me one such historian who claimed as such."
I never claimed that actually, Leonidas. Genetics-wise there are no differences between Greeks, Italians and Albos, although I do believe that Albos' predecessors were Thracians' closest relatives. And I do have some evidence provided by some studies on comparative linguistics carried out by the only Albanian researcher I recognize as such, the late antifascist Eqerem Cabej :) But please don't ask me about the title of the article, don't have it at hand right now.
"I've said no serious historian would ever claim that modern peoples are direct descendants of ancient peoples, at least in terms of DNA. What really matters is continuation (e.g. culture, language, occasionally religion) which ensures the historical sense of an evolving community through time." Totally agree, dude, golden words, would have said a Greek, an Albanian, an Eskimo or an Indian :)
Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor implied. If you could repeat previously discredited memes or steer the conversation into irrelevant, off topic discussions, it would be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous. I am out of here.
There are two unanswered questions to your theory, Carpe Diem
1) The lack of toponyms with Albanian names, same situation what Romanians in Transylvania do face.
Comment - The Romanians in Transylvania is a Mix of Skytians(Gotic Germans) and Sarmatians/Slavs(Serbians of Armenian german descent) from the 4th and 5th Century B.C.
Further -
"Illyrians" could rather fit the Dalmatians. Interestingly, the Glagolitic script was called "Illyrian writing" and it is still quite widely used in Croatia. I did see Glagolitic roadsigns all over Istria.
(Ataman, 28 November 2015 03:41) # Comment link
Comment -
The Istrians is of Keltic ancestry( a german people).
The Romanians/Tiraspolians/Romans/Albanians/Illyrians are all imigrants from Troy.
@ Carpe Diem, the first Albanian Orthodox bishops were consecrated by Serbian bishops...and you know that without consecrated Albo bishops we would never have had the first synod of bishops who declared the Albo church's autocephaly. I'm pretty sure you're able to understand what it meant for the Albanian nation, the practical implications of such a positive attitude towards Albos. And they are not being good at all towards their bros Macedonians' or Montenegrins re recognition of autocephaly, right bro? Secondly, if it weren't for Yugo communists, Albania would have never built its own antifascist resistance and united front. Since our catholics and 3-4 muslims resolved to collaborate with the fascis and nazis, Albania would have been definitely divided at the end of WWII, if it weren't for our partizan forces who fought alongside yugo partizans. Once again, yugos proved crucial to our victory and if we can today celebrate it's also thanks to that alliance. Atrocities have been committed from both sides during the centuries and atrocities have been committed by Albos as well, alongside Turks and Fascis. Obviously, I'm sure that the Illyrian thesis was fabricated by Austrian and German scholars for mere political goals, the most important being that of setting Albos against their Slavic and Greek neighbors. And they perfectly succeded when they joined forces with Hoxha's academy. Widespread pathological hatred for the Serbs followed Hoxha's split from his former yugo mates. There aren't any Albos who doesn't know when the 'barbaric and cruel slavic hordes' arrived in the Balkans, right? Sure, I wouldn't expect some scientific research being made by Albo scholars during Hoxha's regime. They couldn't even communicate with their colleagues in Belgrade or Rome, or Athens. So what we are talking about here? So how can I comment on Serbian scholars if i'm aware of the professional background of 'my' scholars? And btw, all we know about Serbian scholars is what our scholars have declared. Obviously, I don't trust you when you cite Nikolic. Go figure out why ;)
Apologies to the admins, I'm being totally off-topic in my posts. @ Carpe Diem, to the best of my knowledge, the Caucasian thesis of Albos' origins has never been supported by Serbian scholars. It has been supported by Pacolli recently...
You can't blame Montenegrins for not wanting to relate themselves with serbs!
Serbs are a very nationalistic and problematic nation. They've proved, ever since their arrival to the Balkans, that they cannot coexist peacefully with other people. If serbs cannot dominate over other nations, then they take the "dirty way" i.e. genocide and expelling.
Actually you are the living proof why no one wants to be affiliated with serbs. Your nationalistic rants are getting old. Always the same BS with you. You are exactly the kind of people that we need to get rid of in all our countries and everyone is ashamed of they have em.
I dont know if I should thank you for always reminding of who the real enemy is or if I should be sad, that people like you really exist. And by enemy I`m not talking about Serbia, I`m talking about primitive warmongering brainwashed nationalistic kids.
Good boy you learned who the Montenegrin's are. Yes the Montenegrin's are http://www.slovio.com/slavic-gene/Haplogroup_I.png Haplogroup I. Slavs are Haplogroup R1a yes you have relatives but they are not Serbs.
Cosovic is strange anti-Serb and anti-Slav schizophrenic maniac...
The people in Montenegro are Slavs and they are Serbian, there is no doubt about that, history proves it, DNA proves it and our cultures prove it...
What's next, the Montenegrin language which is Serbian and the alphabet is illiryan... This goes beyond a joke and begins to sound insane, like a schizophrenic maniac...
Cosovic refers to the Romans calling the people in the Balkans Illyrians... I think the current day Romans (the EU) have brainwashed Cosovic... What is funny about this is that he thinks the Slavs are blood thirsty killers, oh my... What propaganda... The Serbs never went to turkey and ruled over them and killed them making skull towers from dead Turks as the Turks did to the Serbs... The Serbs never killed 6 million Jews... The Serbs never attacked the Kosovo Albanians, the Kosovo Albanians attacked Serbs, they called this a jihad... The Croatians built jasnovac concentration camp murdering Serbian men, women and children, over 700,000 innocent people dies there at the hands of Croatians.... The Bosnian Muslims also attacked the Serbs, they were used by the US and NATO to destroy Yugoslavia, just as the US used the muhajadeen in Afghanistan to do its dirty work...
Cosovic may need to seek professional psychiatric help or maybe some proper education at a good university will help him...
Finally Montenegrins are starting to realize they are actually Albanians which were assimilated by force hundreds of years ago. All the old time Montenegrins know this is true but for whatever reason they hide it. If they were really Serbs they would of stood together.Be proud to be Albanian!!! I am!!!!
You can't blame Montenegrins for not wanting to relate themselves with serbs!
Serbs are a very nationalistic and problematic nation. They've proved, ever since their arrival to the Balkans, that they cannot coexist peacefully with other people.
(news reader, 27 November 2015 16:46)
Wrong on everything. First of all, Montenegro's most recognizable heroes were some of the biggest Serbs in history. I am from Montenegro, and the majority of people there consider themselves to be Serbian. Unfortunately, my people are living oppressed under the Djukanovic tyrannical dictatorship that has tried to force an identity change in Montenegro, but only his cronies and beneficiaries buy into it. The vast majority of the people are Serbs who follow the Serbian Orthodox Church.
Oh and as far as Serbs not being able to live with others, Serbia in the most multi-ethnic country in the region, by far. One day, Montenegro will be part of it!
To news reader,
Serb's will never want anyone to rule them ever again. Serb's had Ottoman Turks empire rule them for around 600 year's, and then for 50 year's a Croatian TITO,so stop with the BULLSHIT that they are the ruler's. The war of the 1990's is that they didn't want anymore NO Croatian to rule them anymore and NO Muslim to rule them anymore.
650 year's of last 700 odd year's ruled by Muslim's or Croatian (TITO),stop stating Lies.
No more ruled by Catholics, Communists, or Muslim's.Read the history and stop Bullshitting!
Oh well, in that case i would have a brand new name for Miroslav Cosovic... Ladies and gentlemen, here is Mr. Agron Kosova from Montenegro!! If you are an Illyrian, I am an eskimo, would have said my best friend :)
The people in Montenegro are Slavs and they are Serbian, there is no doubt about that, history proves it, DNA proves it and our cultures prove it...
(Nikola Novakovic, 27 November 2015 16:04)
Please provide the following proof showing that the people of Montenegro are Serbians:
Ah of course, the Illyrians. Now I'd love to see a bunch of revisionists from Podgorica and Tirana fight over who has the rightful claim to these phantasmic peoples.
They've proved, ever since their arrival to the Balkans, that they cannot coexist peacefully with other people........
(news reader, 27 November 2015 16:46)
Instead of ad hominem attacks, one has to look at his arguments and history as written by independent scholars, not Balkan biased academics.
Whether we like it or not, the Adriatic an Ionian coasts from Preveza to Kotor have been mainly populated by people of Albanian stock since immemorial times. Albania has provided the human bulk for successive empires (byzantine, roman, serbian and ottoman), that is why Albanians are today muslims, orthodox and christians. Most of them kept their language, some were assimilated by Greece (arvanitas) making the bulk of the greek nation, (by 1820 in Greece Albanian was more widely spoken than Greek) some were assimilated by Serbia and some by Turkey. Coastal villages of Ulcinj, Bar, Kotor and to some degree Budva were predominantly albanian and modern day montenegrins have way more in common with albanian mountain people than serbs of mainland Serbia.
For nationalistic / traditional reasons Serbia refuses to take into account the existence of albanians as native to the Balkans (probably inferiority complex of the latecomers to the area) and has created a false history and narrative that leads to an aggressive policy of war and false propaganda by denying the right to existence of albanians and ultimately living in denial of reality. Admitting that Albanians are native to the Balkans does not make Serb claims less legitimate in the area, it would rather give them a leading role as mutual trust will be restored.
Montenegrins are serbs.....their puny population of 500,000 world wide that don't think so then they need help//////these so called Montenegrins are a minority in Montenegro lol with 250,000.....within 10 years their population world wide will go from the 500,000 to 200,000.....then 0.......
@Drymades
…Carpe Diem is a little bit lying since there are no serious Serbian scholars who deny that Albos are indigeneous in the Balkans…
I have yet to find a Serb scholar that admits that. Look how much time the Serb Academy spent trying to make the case that Albanians come from Caucasia which has been totally debunked yet is widely popular in Serbia today. The other part of Serbia who does not believe this tale are convinced that Albanians came to the area with the Turks.
In a recent interview, Serbia's president Nikolic (granted he is not a scholar..) said that “there is no sign in Kosovo that there were any Albanians prior to 50 years ago.” I repeat prior to 50 years ago. That is going back to 1965. So according to Nikolic, sometime after 1965, 2 million Albanian's suddenly entered Kosovo, even though there is not a single mention of such an event. Furthermore, if 2 million Albanians suddenly, entered Kosovo, wouldn't such a huge shift in population reflect on the next census in Albania proper?
I am saying this, because such stupid lies can only be sold to the Serbs who are still living in total denial of the reality.
Georgevitch, prime minister of Serbia tried to convince the world that Albanians have tails and live in the trees literally!. Vaso Cubrilovic had his nazi style “final solution” for the exterminations of albanians that Milosevic tried to put in practice. What on earth have Albanians done to Serbia that Serbian state is hell bent to exterminate them?
@ ataman
On first question, I can give you more than 900 Albanian toponyms and about 300 Serb toponyms in Albania. Serb and Albanian toponyms have been completely eradicated in Greece through state policy which is not the case in Albania. There are/was way more Serb toponyms in Greece than Albania.
On second question, I invite you to read the latest book from Oxford researcher Noel Malcolm “Agents of empire”. He talks about Albania during 13 to 17th century, as researched in the Vatican archives. You would see that all corsairs and cities from Preveza to Budva.
Albania has a fascinating history, her problem is that it is written by her neighbors. Albanian were mostly good fighters and paid only lip service to religion which is the only cultural institution in those times with written heritage.
All Balkan people have lots of Illyrian genes in common, however all peoples in the Balkans speak a common Slavic language which has no connection with Illyrian & their arrival in 6th century is well recorded in history. Albanians are the only ones who speak a different language and there is no record in known history showing their arrival in the Balkans.
Also, during the ottoman occupation the only people in Balkans that truly resisted the Turks were Albanians. Most major and minor battles against Turks were fought by the Albanians, this is a historical fact. But they don’t get much credit as we often wrongly portray them as Muslims and the Hoxha regime did not do them a favor.
Half of Slavic population in ex Yugoslavia have Illyrian genes this is case with Croats, Slovenians and Bosnians. When we talk for Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians and people from sanxhak they have not just Illyrian genes but also about half of them they recently were Albanians. During ottoman empire since predication in churches was held in Slavic and Greek language orthodox Albanians were assimilated to Serbian, Slavic population from Montenegro and Macedonia and also to Greek speaking population. This was because Albanian population before converting to Islam was treated like biggest enemy in the ottoman empire. Albanians were forced in order to survive either to convert to Slavic or Greek speaking and save religion or convert to Muslims and save national identity. Orthodox Albanians were converted to Slavic and Greeks and Catholic Albanians were converted to Muslims. Albanians (Illyrians) through the history because of empires like Roman, Russian and Ottoman who destroyed them and favored others they lost territory and population but the genes are there and one day these genes will do their job.
Be proud to be Albanian!!! I am!!!!
(Ulqini aka ulcinj, 27 November 2015 19:41)
Be proud there are no Serbians and Montenegrins who are "Albanians"
Pastrovici, one of the largest and oldest clans in Montenegro and has nothing whatsoever to do with Albania So take your stupid propaganda elsewhere.
Albanians were converted to Slavic and Greeks and Catholic Albanians were converted to Muslims. Albanians (Illyrians) through the history because of empires like Roman, Russian and Ottoman who destroyed them and favored others they lost territory and population but the genes are there and one day these genes will do their job.
(Beni, 28 November 2015 09:27)
Absolute rubbish with no historical proof and context. For one thing, part of Montenegro were never invaded by the Ottoman empire so Albanians would never had the opportunity to be "converted" to Serbians.
“Dalmatian Croats are actually more closely related to Bosnian Serbs than Croats from Zagreb”
(Nenad)
That makes sense, because if you read history, you’ll see that Bosnian Serbs, especially Hercegovinians, were majority Vlachs (Romanized Illyrians) who spoke Vlach (Vulgar Latin) before being assimilated into Slavic Serbs. Vlachs have the same ethnic stock as most Albanians, Croatians, Bosnians, Romanians etc. and their language is similar to Romanian, both adopted during the Roman Empire. Vlachs are still present throughout Illyria, from the Dalmatian coast and Hercegovina, through Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia and Epirus. The “Serbian” part of Montenegro, near Hercegovina is of the same non-Slavic Illyrian-Vlach stock.
“they recently were Albanians”
(Beni)
Beni, you are exactly correct. All Montenegrins know this, eventhough some don’t have the courage to admit it. Most of Old Montenegro spoke Albanian before Serbian spies like Njegos started baptizing them with Serbian names and teaching them Serbian through church. The evidence is all over, from the Illyrian topography all across the country (Ulqin, Tivar, Kotor, Nikshi) to their medieval history (rulers: Balshaj/Balsic, Crnojevic who fought for an independent Albania) to the Montenegrin culture which is exactly the same as the Albanian Malesor culture. The center of Montenegrin culture and heritage has always been Shkodra (in the heart of Albanian Malesia) and not Belgrade.
The center of Montenegrin culture and heritage has always been Shkodra (in the heart of Albanian Malesia) and not Belgrade.
(Genti, 28 November 2015 19:19)
Rubbish again and more Albanian propaganda. Albanians love stealing history from the Italians, Greeks and or Serbians. Lake Skadar is a Serbian name, not Albanian, Kosovo and Metohija is a Serbian name, Kosovo in Serbia proper, parts of Metohija in both Serbia and Montenegro. The founding nations of Serbia are Rascia and Zeta, Serbia and Montenegro. Durres is Durrazo, a famous Italian and Venetian port, zero Albanian history lined to this port city. The examples go on and on, Albanian historical roots are in Dagestan and Azerbaijan and Turkey if you fishing to find yourselves.
@leo
Read "Genes, People and Languages" by prominent genetics professor Cavalli-Sforza. Albanians are the first inhabitants of the Balkans dating 9,000 years, with Greeks showing up some 2,000 years later (p 163). On page 164 is the tree of IE languages, Albanian is the first, oldest branch.
Read "The modern Greek language" by E.M. Geldart p 128-137. He says: The notion that exist today in Greece that Albanians are descendants of Pelasgians is not far from the truth. Then explains in details how you can find in Albanian traces of Sanskrit, lost in Greek and Latin.
E. Schneider talks about archaic one syllable words, counting over 700 in Albanian, while other languages have only a few. For American Albanologist, Eric Hamp, there is no doubt about the Illyrian-Albanian link.
Following scholars think all that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians:
Rudolf Virchow, Eugene Pittard, Edwin Pears, Robert D'Angely, Giuseppe Crispi, Edmund Martin Geldart, Enzo Gatti, Leibniz, von Hahn, Edouard Schneider, Louis Beonlew, Ludwig von Thalloczy, Friedrich Max Muller, Edwin Jacques, Ferdinand Schevill, George F. Williams, Edward Gibbon, Stuart Mann, Eric P. Hamp, Gustav Meyer, Maximilian Lambertz, Theodor Mommsen, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, etc. "There is very little dispute among serious (that is, non-Greek, non-Macedonian and non-Serb) scholars that the Albanians are an ancient people, the descendants of the Illyrians or (as a small minority insists) the Thracians. Dr Sam Vaknin.
You don't have to do much research to learn that the Romans named several groups of people in the Balkans as "Illyrians". This was simply the name that they used for all of the people who lived in the Balkans. There isn't a shred of legitimate evidence pointing to one specific nationality over the other as the origin of Illyrians. It's similar to calling a group of people in the Scandanavian regions Northerners. All other theories are approaching Lord of the Rings territory.
There are two unanswered questions to your theory, Carpe Diem
1) The lack of toponyms with Albanian names, same situation what Romanians in Transylvania do face.
2) The complete lack of seafarer skills. Before 18th century there wasn't much word about Albanian pirates. On the other hand Illyrians (as they used to be called) were feared pirates of antiquity.
The most plausible answer is that both Romanians and Albanians are related to Thracians mixed with Roman settlers and different ethnic groups during barbaric invasions. This is not a perfect answer but makes some things having more sense.
It could be even that Albanians are composed from different groups who adopted a common language (Hungarians did the same).
"Illyrians" could rather fit the Dalmatians. Interestingly, the Glagolitic script was called "Illyrian writing" and it is still quite widely used in Croatia. I did see Glagolitic roadsigns all over Istria.
Anyone interested in the truth has to look at the science. I've seen a little, and the Balkans - like lots of regions - are all mixed up. But there are predominant haplogroups, and if Wikipedia is to be believed, Montenegrins do tend to cluster with Hercegovinians, Dalmatians, Albanians, Macedonians and probably a few other Balkan groups. It's interesting: for example, one can see where Dalmatian Croats are actually more closely related to Bosnian Serbs than Croats from Zagreb. So maybe we can't rely on everything the historians tell us about the ethnic breakdown of the Balkans.
We should be talking about Albanian Islamic Muslim Terrorists who are not Illyrians but descended from Dagestan and Azerbaijan and Turkey, makes much more sense on why they follow Islam.
Azerbaijan
Empire of the Alexander of the Great, which occupied areas of Ahamenids was collapsed in 323 BC after his death. In northern lands of Azerbaijan inhabited by modern Turks, Caucasian Albania was established in the north and Atropotena in the south in IV century BC.
http://azerbaijans.com/content_353_en.html
DĀḠESTĀN
(Daghestan). The many-faceted relationship between Dāḡestān (ancient Albania), a region in the eastern Caucasus, and Persia since antiquity has yet to be studied as a whole, though there is considerable historical, linguistic, folkloric, literary, and art-historical evidence bearing on it.http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/dagestan
Nenad : “So maybe we can't rely on everything the historians tell us about the ethnic breakdown of the Balkans.”
Not only about ethnical but all the rest of the issues too! Because if you lie once you have to lie all the time and this rule has no exceptions. If you place an event in the ancient times quite a few will care about it. But if the same event is placed in the medieval times things change drastically. As for the happlogroups that you mentioned I wonder what for have they divided the Arian R happlogroup so that it looks like two separate groups now ? Wasn’t it made to further divide peoples and not to let the new technology reveal the truth ? Why R1a and R1b Slavic happlogroups weren’t marked in a way to demonstrate their unity ? Why not have a formula that would not didvide but unite peoples? Technically it has no problems. Another reason why the R1 and R1b has been artificially divided was to avoid questions of how came that most of the western Europe have Slavic routes of R1b branch. Only the New Chronology of Anatoly Fomenko gives well documented explanations to all those strange things in the history.
Well, you don't have to be a genius to understand that there are really two options only:
A. Albanians are aliens that came to Earth from space; or
B. Albanians, like you, me, and every other human alive today, came from people living before them and eventually from the most ancient form of homo sapiens
So, unless you are claiming (A), the only possible explanation is (B)!
(icj1,
Your comment is a textbook example of an idiotic reductio ad absurdum.I've asked a simple question to the poster who claimed that many historians regard modern Albanians as descendants of the ancient ones to name me one such historian who claimed as such.I've always know that it's too difficult for you to understand my postings.
Carpe
1-The Epirotes and Macedonians were, in Strabo’s time ,un-Greek or barbarian
If you want to convince me (and the world) that Macedonians were not Greek because Demosthenes called them barbarian, first you have to convince me (and the world) that:
1. Aristogeiton was not Greek because Demosthenes called him a barbarian
2.Demosthenes was not Greek because Aeschines called him a barbarian
3. The Eleans were not Greek because Stratonicus called them barbarians
4. The Thessalians were not Greek because Hegesander called them barbarians.
5. The Aeoleans were not Greek because Prodicus called them barbarians.
2-Epirotes, Macedonians and Illyrians are kindred races.
3-Illyrian = Pelasgian in a wider sense
These ideologies of pan-albanianism were created by Enver Hoxha and its main aim was to appropriate Ancient Greek history as Albanian.No wonder few Albanians on this site aired such views as "Greek stole Albanian history" etc.
4-The present day division of the Albanians the Tosks and Guegs represent the Epirotes and Illyrians. Pelasgians therefore is regarded by him as convertible with Illyrian and that with Gueg and Tosk of present day Albania.
Where is archaelogical evidence and historiography?
5-In the view of Von Hahn there are strong presumptions that the Illyrian language was Albanian.
The Austrian Scholars Schumacher and Matzinger who researched the theory that the Albanian language has its roots in Ancient Illyria found no evidence at all.
leo,
I am not shifting goals, you asked for scholar names I provided. Now, if you think that Cavalli-Sforza proffesors at California Stanford University, considered the authority today in genes and population and other European known scholars are idiots, and you know better, I give up. I haven't seen anything on your side to substantiate your claims that you are descendants of ancient Greece.
I also provided you some links with your own modern history so you stop living in denial, thinking you are son of Socrates.
How do you explain that at this ethnographic map of Balkans established by French Guillaume Lejean in 1861, Greece was clearly an Albanian populated province ?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Balk.Ethno-1861.jpg
How about Fallermayer findings?
If Albanians- Arvanitas didn't fight for the freedom of Greece there would be no Greece of today - neither the notion of a Greek Nation since Greek is a religious definition not of a Nation. Hellas would have been found only in the history books as city- states interaction.
Albanian blessing for Greece became a curse on the expense of Albanian population and motherland. Greeks owe their freedom, existence from blood & flesh to the Albanian stock not to mention their national costumes and Heroes.
What the Greeks of today don't have is the vitality, resilience and strength of the people they are in debt to and massacred, deported, annihilated with no mercy.
I think Albanians came from Caucasus and along the way added more to their group, and then finally mixed with tribes in Balkans. That can be a reason why their language is so screwed up
(mycomment, 1 December 2015 03:03)
AZERBAIJAN and
DĀGESTAN.
There were 26 kins of the Albanian tribal union. Strabon wrote that "they get hardly in contact with each other." Each of these tribes had their own language, but because of the Turkic tribes were leading one, of course, in Caucasian Albania Turkish was the general communication language. http://www.azerbaijans.com/content_353_en.html
(Daghestan). The many-faceted relationship between Dāḡestān (ancient Albania), a region in the eastern Caucasus, and Persia since antiquity has yet to be studied as a whole, though there is considerable historical, linguistic, folkloric, literary, and art-historical evidence bearing on it.
http://www.azerbaijans.com/content_353_en.html
Greeks owe their freedom, existence from blood & flesh to the Albanian stock not to mention their national costumes and Heroes.
(carpe diem, 1 December 2015 17:01) # Comment link
The Greeks don't owe anything to a cowardly Albanian race. The Greek uprising in 1821 was begun by Alexandros Ypsilantis and continued with Theodoros Kolocotronis.
In 1912 Albania was granted a state where the Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians and Romanians did most of the fighting against Turkish Albanian forces. The so called Western nations led by Austro-Hungary ordered the Serbs to retreat from Durrazo and the Greeks to stop the advance towards Istanbul.
"Arvanites have nothing to do with Albanians. They started emigrating into Greece after the Turkish incursions into Balkans."
(Leonidas)
Oh really? So why don't you tell us where did these "mysterious" Arvanites emigrate from? And why do they speak Albanian? Idiot.
And by the way, Arvanites have been documented living as far south as the Peloponnese since at least the 1100s, hundreds of years before the Ottomans invaded Greece.
Dear Albanians, all of Leonida's comments are full of hate. It's not ignorance, it's purposeful hate. Recognize it for what it is and please do not engage him as that will only encourage his psychotic rants.
Today's society, unfortunately, is a very fertile ground for quacks and prophets of hatred. Not so long ago, the Cosovic's of this world would never be the news material. Paradoxically, the more insane their blabber is, the more attention it gets. Debating with Cosovic, of course, is pointless. One can only wonder which part of the 620000-strong populus is MiroSLAV referring to.
was half Serb, half Slovak. He is one of the most celebrated Hungarian poets, so he is ethnic Hungarian.
Балшић family was Albanian. Than while Мара Кастриотић-Црноjевић was of course Serb, her brother was Albanian. And there is a famous brandy bearing his name.
Steve Jobs wasn't Lebanese. He was 100% American. Who cares that his physical ancestors are Lebanese.
Everyone knows the name of the biggest Ethiopian-African poet, arguably the biggest poet on the Planet Earth ever. Don't say that you don't know his name.
I just say: Abraham Hannibal. Who's his great-grandson?
Interestingly at one point the nature does "adjust" even the physical look.
"Mixed" couples of different races after few decades start to look similar.
Two madmen at the end of the list of good guys.
Димитрије Стојаковић
has nothing to do with Serbs. He was a Hungarian madman who made Hungary more nazi than Germany was.
Erdoğan is NOT Georgian.
Erdoğan allegedly said in 2003, I'm a Georgian, my family is a Georgian family which migrated from Batumi to Rize.
However, in a 2014 televised interview on the NTV news network, he said, You wouldn't believe the things they have said about me. They have said I am Georgian even with much uglier things, they have called me Armenian, but I am Turkish.
Who's your daddy, Erdoğan? I hope, the Turkish military.
Why do they speak Serbian then???
(Zoran..Sydney Australia, 27 November 2015 23:31)
====================
They call it Montenegrin these days. Where was this language before?
It is funny with srbs.
On one hand they say when they come to ballkan on illyrian lands ,there were no illyrians .
on the other hand today they without shame ,clame to have illyrian genes too.
then if no illyrian were there when you occupied there land,as you say here everyday,then where did you get there genes ?? on the trees ?
Excellent and concise, Ataman. Albos, stop repeating Hoxha's fairy tales and listen to this man/woman. I would only add that there were hundreds of Serbian, Bulgarian, and Greek schools in the 17th century in Albania, Ataman, so it's not just an issue of 'lack of Albanian toponyms'. The argument goes that there were hundreds of Serbs, Greeks, and Bulgarians living in Albania in the late middle ages. Funny enough, Albania's only Unesco world heritage sites have all been built by either Slavs or Greeks. For who? Who used to worship in those churches besides obviously the indigenous Albanians, assuming that there were any? Obviously, Carpe Diem is a little bit lying since there are no serious Serbian scholars who deny that Albos are indigeneous in the Balkans. Achtung, Albos, please read carefully the above smart remarks, my weekend time is of extreme value and I expect you to be grateful to this Greek here who would typically avoid writing such a long essay. Obviously, Albos became the major demographic factor in Kosovo only during the Ottoman rule. For obvious reasons, would have said Chomsky đŸ˜Š
Albania has provided the human bulk for successive empires (byzantine, roman, serbian and ottoman), that is why Albanians are today muslims, orthodox and christians. Most of them kept their language, some were assimilated by Greece (arvanitas) making the bulk of the greek nation, (by 1820 in Greece Albanian was more widely spoken than Greek)
(carpe diem
I have no real ambition to emulate your diatribe-long nonsensical comment in the B92 forum, but let me make a couple of comments: There has never been any Albanian national conscience as such a thing emerged just in 1878 with the Prizren (Kosovo) League by all means fabricated by foreign powers and religious propaganda.During the Turkish domination there was no Albanian nation. The inhabitants of today’s Albania were distinguished by their faith.This is why Albanians preferred the Turkish rather than the Albanian conscience, unfamiliar to them. Moreover during the Greek-Ottoman and Balkan wars the Muslims of Albania fought dynamically ranged among the orders of the Ottoman Army.
Arvanites have nothing to do with Albanians.They started emigrating into Greece after the Turkish incursions into Balkans.Arvanites were less 10% of the total population of Greece in 19th century, 200.000 out of a total population of 2.000.000. This is attested by the eminent Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34, search for it on books.google.com.
Obviously, Carpe Diem is a little bit lying since there are no serious Serbian scholars who deny that Albos are indigeneous in the Balkans.
(Drymades,
If there are so many modern historians claiming what you say -which considers that Albanians have any relation to ancient peoples-then show me at least one such.A modern one, who is still alive and not Albanian or half-Albanian, like that Mathieu Aref.
@leonidas my greek friend,
I don’t need to Google Von Hahn; looks like you didn’t read him. Let me summarize his main ideas for you:
1-The Epirotes and Macedonians were, in Strabo’s time , un-Greek or barbarian
2-Epirotes, Macedonians and Illyrians are kindred races.
3-Illyrian = Pelasgian in a wider sense
4-The present day division of the Albanians , the Tosks and Guegs represent the Epirotes and Illyrians. Pelasgians therefore is regarded by him as convertible with Illyrian and that with Gueg and Tosk of present day Albania.
5-In the view of Von Hahn there are strong presumptions that the Illyrian language was Albanian
And since we are at scholars, why don’t you look up Fallmerayer, the real authority on Greece. Let see what he wrote in 1830:
“…The race of the Hellenes has been wiped out in Europe. Physical beauty, intellectual brilliance, innate harmony and simplicity, art, competition, city, village, the splendour of column and temple — indeed, even the name has disappeared from the surface of the Greek continent.... Not the slightest drop of undiluted Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of present-day Greece.[7]…”
I am not going to address the rest of your rant, keep believing you are the son of Socrates.
(carpe diem
Of course you won't it's better to believe some videos than the works of eminent non-Greek historian that I've quoted below.I even gave you the page number.Unlike the Albanians I am the one on record on this site(few times) that I've said no serious historian would ever claim that modern peoples are direct descendants of ancient peoples, at least in terms of DNA. What really matters is continuation (e.g. culture, language, occasionally religion) which ensures the historical sense of an evolving community through time.
I think Albanians came from Caucasus and along the way added more to their group, and then finally mixed with tribes in Balkans. That can be a reason why their language is so screwed up
leo,
I am not shifting goals, you asked for scholar names I provided. Now, if you think that Cavalli-Sforza proffesors at California Stanford University, considered the authority today in genes and population and other European known scholars are idiots, and you know better, I give up.
Since you've refused to answer my questions and started talking about genetics have a look at the following recent world ancestry link and tell me where do you see any genetic links between Greeks and Albanians.
http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/
BTW It's very insulting to call an arvanite Albanian.The christian orthodox arvanites joined the Greek revolution whereas the Albanian muslims fought on the side of the Ottomans and committed many atrocities.Hence the name Turko-Albanian.
Who really cares? Is it so important to either the Montenegrins or the Serbs whether or not the former are really the latter in disguise?Going back 1000 years, my family name (it isn't Taylor by the way) is French, but I'm as British as crap weather.
The Romans had a nasty habit of naming peoples and territories in order to obscure native peoples and their countries. Consider the name Palestine for the territory where the Jews are indigenous.
Montenegrins are serbs.....their puny population of 500,000 world wide that don't think so then they need help//////these so called Montenegrins are a minority in Montenegro lol with 250,000.....within 10 years their population world wide will go from the 500,000 to 200,000.....then 0.......
(funny, 27 November 2015 22:00)
You start with "Montenegrins are Serbs" and then you go on as if they are a different population from Serbs! Unless you're saying that the number of Serbs worldwide will go to 0, in which case you do have a point :)
Thracia is neither fitting inside Enver Hoxha nor Nicolae Ceausescu head because it was a bit south and a bit east than they needed. Illyiria and Dacia was changed for them on purpose. But otherwise no contest.
So there it is, Beni - your text without Hoxha and without Ceausescu.
Half of Slavic population in ex Yugoslavia have Illyrian or Thracian genes this is case with Serbs, Croats, Slovenians and Bosnians. When we talk for Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians and people from sanxhak they have not just Illyrian or Thracian genes, but also about half of Albanians were recently Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians. During Ottoman empire since service in churches was held in Church-Slavonic and Greek language, Orthodox Albanians were (still) assumed to be Serbian, Slavic population from Montenegro and Macedonia and also to Greek speaking population. This was because Albanian population before converting to Islam was treated like biggest enemy in the Ottoman empire. Albanians were encouraged in order to survive either to convert to Slavic or Greek speaking and save religion - or convert to Islam and save national identity. Serbs population, too, was encouraged to convert to Islam. Orthodox Albanians were assumed to be Slavonic or Greek. Catholic Albanians were converted to Islam. Albanians (largely Thracians) fought through the history empires like Hellenic Cities, Romans, Ottomans and to some degree Russians. Thracia lost territory - but the genes are there.
Serbs, Montenegrins, Romanians, Bulgarians, are basically the same people: a mix of thracian, latin, slavs and celtic people, of the same faith. Orthodox. Part of the byzantine empire. The differences were exploited, because otherwise we wouldn't have the nations today, would we? Those ethnic elements are mixed in different ways, but it's enough to see that we basically look the same, have the same way of life, we had the same alphabet until the 19th centuries...I don't mean to offend you, it's just the truth.
This is one of the more interesting discussions in a long time but only in the context of scientific curiosity. The Problem is that you guys are using history for politics and whenever history has been mixed up with current politics people have died. As seen in the last few decades in the Balkans.
I mean how do events, that took place 2000+ yrs ago contribute to our life today?! Except of causing confusion and anger. This is utterly nonsense. We have to accept that there was a huge migration of the peoples and that the concept of Borders was introduced late in human history. Just go a 200 yrs back and you will see that borders between Monarchies or Empires where very volatile. Nations and Nationalisms are a very young concept, people used to belong to families, clans, Kings/Queens, Religions but the only constant was Family. Change of Faith, Kings/Queens or clans was normal and only the family bond remained constant.
My Point is, dont interpret too much in history. Focus on the present and how we are going to live together in the future. I dont believe in Titos Yugoslavia but I believe in a strong South-easy Europe with great diversity and prosperity thru cooperations.
The cities of Nis - Rudnica - Pec - Prizren - Veles make roughly a triangle, with much of Kosovo inside. That is the area I was referring to. It is the disputed area, precisely like the Transylvania for Romanians.
There is no trace of Vlach presence in Transylvania before 13th Century and same about Albanian presence in Kosovo before 14th Century. Toponyms included.
More of the problem of Albanian pirates during the early middle ages: where are pirate hideouts, castles, safe havens, support cities south of Kotor?
Only one is there: Ulcinj. It is sufficiently Albanian and sufficiently pirate - but it's relatively new. The Albanian naval commanders of Ottoman Empire started appear around 18th century, correct?
Dalmatinci fit all the Illyrian stereotype very well and in addition the local traditional writing (glagolica) used to be called Illyrian writing.
In any case here is an other side of that Illyrian controversy:
http://tinyurl.com/ht9c3xv
If that's the case, the Illyrian-Albanian relationship is quite wilder thing to imagine than the Magyar-Shumerian, at least I can easily swear in Shumerian.
The Magyar-Shumerian relationship is considered pseudo-science. While Hittite -Slavonic relationship is proven, it is not being exposed: Hattusa is in Turkey.
If you are Illyrians - than we are Shumerians and Hittites. Let's be fair.
Dimou? I've never heard of him.History is not created by videos,it's created by archaeological relics and historiography and you've got none.Do you really want to know about arvanites? Read what Michael Attaleiates the Greek Byzantine historian has to say on the subject. After all he was writing over 900 years ago he's more credible than any modern one.
If you really want to know about the Albanians I would refer you to a Turkish Ottoman historian(He used the Ottoman archives) - Halil Inalcik “The middle east and the balkans under the ottoman empire essays on economy and society” what he had to say about the Balkans.“Having strategic significance the Vilaeti of Kosovo and the Balkans in general were subjected to a systematic settlement of thousands of Turkic people after the conquest.[..]It is, however, obvious that Ottoman conquests were made to settle there, which were not just temporary adventurous or marauding movements.”He continues “Such places as Serez, Plovdiv, Babadag, Elbasan, Sarajevo, Silistre and Skopje had been rearranged by the uc-begis in such a way to be new Turkish cities“.
Jugoslavia, nobody in the Balkans lacks the ability and will to fight. Otherwise we wouldn't have had all these wars. This hotblooded prevalence for violence and war in the Balkans is the real cowardice and that includes all of us. Even yourself, that are so quick to point your finger at others; that is nothing more but verbal violence. That too is an expression of cowardice.
Jugoslavia, nobody in the Balkans lacks the ability and will to fight. Otherwise we wouldn't have had all these wars. This hotblooded prevalence for violence and war in the Balkans is the real cowardice and that includes all of us. Even yourself, that are so quick to point your finger at others; that is nothing more but verbal violence. That too is an expression of cowardice.
(J, 2 December 2015 01:38)
You know what's cowardly genius, trying to tell a Montenegrin he is not Serb.
My ancestors are from Montenegro. I am a Serb. For every hundred Serbs I know like this, I know maybe 2 people who think what this writer says.
One can be Montenegrin and Serb at the same time. There are numerous references in both literatures to it.
Montenegro's greatest leader, organizer, liberator, national hero and greatest poet Njegos said clearly Montenegrins are Serbs.
Montenegrins speak Serbian with little dialect of significance and use the Cyrillic alphabet
Montenegrins and Serbs share a common mythology which is a significant barometer of resemblance.
Montengrins celebrate Serbian Slava (only Serbs celebrate Slava in the world). They are baptized in Serbian Orthodox churches, attend Sunday school in them, marry in them and are buried in Serbian Orthodox graveyards.
Montenegrins and Serbs look alike. And they understand one another like no two other people in the Balkans. They are brothers and always were and always will be (irregardless of temporary Djukanovic's who come and go)
In order to create and sustain a nation state one must create national mythologies to differentiate oneself. When you hear Serbian TV all day long, and your sick go to Serbian hospitals, and your kids attend Serbian universities, and then go off to Belgrade to find work, it's pretty obvious you don't really have a separate identity and need to make one up (just like a lot of your neighbors)
Monetengrins in the eastern part of the country are hablogroup E-V13. This hablogroup came to southern balkans about 5000yrs ago via todays Libya/Syria. Its the hablogroup that makes up most of albanians at 45%, greeks at 27%, mak slavs at 23% & montenegrins at 27%. So basically, anyones dna who is E, is not of Slavic ancestry. The E-V13 were the illyrians, thracians n greek tribes who spoke latin and became slavs.
Serbs by far in large are hablogroup i2a, at 45%. The I hablogroup began in the balkans 25000yrs ago, spread through parts of europe (especially north, hence why those folks towards norway etc are also tall). Later i2a settlers in todays Czech along wth pure slavic dna R1a, came to bosnia area n mixed wth the old i2a of that area and spread. Other i2a n r1a Slavs came from ukraine and filled bulgaria, northern greece and macedonia. So true serb tribe came from other direction, while those who came from ukraine were not serb slavs although they carried same dna.
Bottom line, if you test and find out youre E-V13, youre not of the original serb stock, instead we are old settlers of the balkans who became Serbs anytime after the 7th century. Vasojevici, Bjelopavlici, Kuca, Piperi are all E-V13, and most trace their roots to Kosovo, which is the epicenter of E-V13 in Europe.
Thracia is neither fitting inside Enver Hoxha nor Nicolae Ceausescu head because it was a bit south and a bit east than they wanted. So "Illyiria" and "Dacia" was born. But otherwise no contest.
So there it is, Beni - your text without Hoxha and without Ceausescu.
"Half of Slavic population in ex Yugoslavia have Illyrian or Thracian genes this is case with Serbs, Croats, Slovenians and Bosnians. When we talk for Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians and people from sanxhak they have not just Illyrian or Thracian genes, but also about half of Albanians were recently Serbs, Montenegrins, Slavic Macedonians. During Ottoman empire since service in churches was held in Church-Slavonic and Greek language, Orthodox Albanians were (still) assumed to be Serbian, Slavic population from Montenegro and Macedonia and also to Greek speaking population. This was because Albanian population before converting to Islam was treated like biggest enemy in the Ottoman empire. Albanians were encouraged in order to survive either to convert to Slavic or Greek speaking and save religion - or convert to Islam and save national identity. Serbs population, too, was encouraged to convert to Islam. Orthodox Albanians were assumed to be Slavonic or Greek. Catholic Albanians were converted to Islam. Albanians (largely Thracians) fought through the history empires like Hellenic Cities, Romans, Ottomans and to some degree Russians. Thracia lost territory - but the genes are there."
There are two unanswered questions to your theory, Carpe Diem
1) The lack of toponyms with Albanian names, same situation what Romanians in Transylvania do face.
Comment - The Romanians in Transylvania is a Mix of Skytians(Gotic Germans) and Sarmatians/Slavs(Serbians of Armenian german descent) from the 4th and 5th Century B.C.
Further -
"Illyrians" could rather fit the Dalmatians. Interestingly, the Glagolitic script was called "Illyrian writing" and it is still quite widely used in Croatia. I did see Glagolitic roadsigns all over Istria.
(Ataman, 28 November 2015 03:41) # Comment link
Comment -
The Istrians is of Keltic ancestry( a german people).
The Romanians/Tiraspolians/Romans/Albanians/Illyrians are all imigrants from Troy.
Apologies to the admins, I'm being totally off-topic in my posts. @ Carpe Diem, to the best of my knowledge, the Caucasian thesis of Albos' origins has never been supported by Serbian scholars. It has been supported by Pacolli recently...
Well, you don't have to be a genius to understand that there are really two options only:
A. Albanians are aliens that came to Earth from space; or
B. Albanians, like you, me, and every other human alive today, came from people living before them and eventually from the most ancient form of homo sapiens
So, unless you are claiming (A), the only possible explanation is (B)!
(icj1,
Option A, Albanian Idiot from outer space with numerology problems.
Carpe Diem, There are a lot of writers that disagree with "Ellyrian origin of Albanians". Read: "The Albanian racism towards the neighbours is based on historical falsifications" where Dr. Kpalna Resulli-Burovich, famous albanologist speaks against fabrications of history. "World renown professors and scholars Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Puscariu and many others" also disagree. Here are some Albanian scholars: "Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the illyrian origin of the Albanians. . . Fatos Ljubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others". Do you still believe that those who disagree with you are under influence of Serb-Greek-Macedonian-Russian propaganda?
It's pretty obvious from your comments that uou shift the goal posts as you move along.You started with your claim that"(arvanitas) making the bulk of the greek nation" to which i replied by saying that " the Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34 put the figure of arvanites in Greece to 10%" which clearly shows either ignorance or lying.Then you proceed with the work of Malkolm to support your illyrian views.What you're not saying is that Malkolm himself has professed ignorance to "when and where Albanians came from".Ataman raised a very important point in his comment which was the fact that Albanians are not seafarers unlike the Illyrians who made their living through sea piracy.As to your claim " Albanians are the first inhabitants of the Balkans dating 9,000 years, with Greeks showing up some 2,000 years late" I would say is nonsense.What gives the Greeks claim to antiquity is the survival of a continuous literary tradition for three and a half millennia, from the earliest Linear B clay tablets baked on Crete to the modern Greek alphabet that has been in use for thousands of years. This continuity lends credence to Greek claims. A single literate civilization has survived.
In the case of Albania,that language only entered the historical stage at a very late date, in the 14th century.That lack of an ancient literary tradition in the Albania language implies to me a fairly recent Albanian "civilization." Ottoman?
Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor implied. If you could repeat previously discredited memes or steer the conversation into irrelevant, off topic discussions, it would be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous. I am out of here.
balkan nationalism is such cancer for the brain from croatia serbia montenegro to macedonia just a bunch of irrational maniac big ego agressive tactics who choose ideology over facts you lot are all basket cases
In order to create and sustain a nation state one must create national mythologies to differentiate oneself. When you hear Serbian TV all day long, and your sick go to Serbian hospitals, and your kids attend Serbian universities, and then go off to Belgrade to find work, it's pretty obvious you don't really have a separate identity and need to make one up (just like a lot of your neighbors)
(Guest, 28 November 2015 05:26)
Actually, that goes the same for the Croats although the Montenegrins are much closer cousins to the Serbs. Albanians are a completely different race and you can spot them a mile away. It is interesting to note there are a lot of redhead Albanians, that one is a mystery, they mush have raped and pillaged a boat full of Scottish/Irish women in an Adriatic port.
If there are so many modern historians claiming what you say -which considers that Albanians have any relation to ancient peoples-then show me at least one such.
(Leonidas, 29 November 2015 18:04)
Well, you don't have to be a genius to understand that there are really two options only:
A. Albanians are aliens that came to Earth from space; or
B. Albanians, like you, me, and every other human alive today, came from people living before them and eventually from the most ancient form of homo sapiens
So, unless you are claiming (A), the only possible explanation is (B)!
"These ideologies of pan-albanianism were created by Enver Hoxha and its main aim was to appropriate Ancient Greek history as Albanian.No wonder few Albanians on this site aired such views as "Greek stole Albanian history" etc."
Absolutely and TITO was the main driver as he created false educational books and curriculum in the former Yugoslavia and creating literally false nations and ideology. FYROM is a prime example where the entire population has latched on the Greek Macedonian identity while diminishing the fact they are either Serbians, Bulgarians and to a lesser extent Greeks. A "Bosnian Muslim" nationality was also carved out. His ultimate goal was to try to expand the Yugoslav federation to include present day Albania and Bulgaria and even Macedonia Greece.
Dear Albanians, all of Leonida's comments are full of hate. It's not ignorance, it's purposeful hate. Recognize it for what it is and please do not engage him as that will only encourage his psychotic rants.
(Genti,
Indeed.Anyone challenging Albanian lies,propaganda and fantasies is a hater.You guys are out of a comic book.
To make a general statement like that is very difficult to substantiate one way or the other however when looking at someone from Serbia, in many cases they do resemble Russians on the other hand when looking at someone from Montenegro you often see a Mediterranean/Greek look about them. So figure that one out
He is in fact quite correct from a genetic perspective. History needs to be re-written.
I look at my genetic history as an Albanian from Montenegro. I was taught to believe that Albanians were descendants of the original people of the Balkans. Illyrians. I have .05% of Paleo Balkanic. Not even 1 percent. No Altaic Turkic either 0% as some Serbs would have you believe. Red Hair and freckles. Not me personally but some of my relations. More red hair and freckles than some Celtic people I know. How?
Serb Nationalist will say Albanians are from Asia and not even European. Bullshit!!!
According to Gedmatch. Here's my Genetic makeup and both my parents are Albanians from Montenegro.
North_Sea 16.45% Southern Norway
East_Med 16.27% Possibly Greek?
Atlantic 15.28% Cornwall UK
Baltic 15.96% Baltic
West_Med 14.38% Italy Spain?
West_Asian 11.78% Georgia
Eastern_Euro 7.81% Perhaps Slavic or Romanian
Red_Sea 1.49% Red Sea
Southeast_Asian 0.58% Who Knows I think it's Balochistan
Then an orthodox Serb from the United States named Vucic writes to me and says Hey I may be your 4-6 cousin.
For our friend Leonidas the Greek aka the Arvanitas aka the Albanian.
Nikos Dimou the great Greek writer gave a very interesting interview recently for the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/arts/design/24abroad.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=2&adxnnlx=1436047412-svOKX94RAAGA1d5aS21kpg
“It’s the fault of a German,” Mr. Dimou said about Greek pride in this cause. He was referring to Johann Winckelmann, the 18th-century German art historian whose vision of an ancient Greece “populated by beautiful, tall, blond, wise people, representing perfection,” as Mr. Dimou put it, was in a sense imposed on the country to shape modern Greek identity.
“We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.”
Look at this ethnographic map of Balkans established by French Guillaume Lejean in 1861, Greece was clearly an Albanian populated province by that time.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Balk.Ethno-1861.jpg
Watch also this video from mainstream skainews greek tv, it is a superb documentary about the history of Greece. Greece spoke mainly Albanian in the 18th century.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M99ze151HvA
I am not going to address the rest of your rant, keep believing you are the son of Socrates.
You know what's cowardly genius, trying to tell a Montenegrin he is not Serb.
(Jugoslavija, 2 December 2015 20:44)
Ok, fine. But then again so is calling other people all kinds of names. You talk in such absolute terms as if you've been living in the Balkans for the past 7 thousand years and you know who had sex with who for all these thousands of years and you witnessed all of this with your own eyes. Nobody knows for sure how we're all mixed together. There were wars, rapes, and peaceful times where people married those geographically close them. Nobody knows with certainty what the f...ck happened. Yet you and many like you not only think you know for sure but you can give exact GPS coordinates.And then you get mad when other people do the same exact thing you're doing but to Montenegrins. Chill out dude.
You are correct, except that the 'our monkey climbed down the tree 10 years earlier than yours' argument is being used by all sides to support serious-looking political claims.
I am extremely disappointed seeing that because these claims are made by politicians in lieu of professionalism. It is very cheap and it's only a pretense. The real goal is of course to hold on power. But masses still seem to be easy to manipulate with all this.
Economic-political mafia is omni-present and it became the establishment.
My opinion is that the root cause of a lot of problems is the disaster called 'public education'. That disaster started in the States somewhere around mid-70s.
They not only not fix that broken system - they even export it. The education problem does trigger that the political establishment is essentially untouchable.
Unfortunately much of this madness is exported under the pretense of 'democratic liberal' ideas. It causes harm not only because it is what it is, but because people see the devastation and many of them as a result became hostile to anything what could have the slightest reference to 'democracy' or 'liberalism'.
It's like comparing the struggle for worker's or human rights with Enver Hoxha.
Of course, E.H. just pretended to act 'in interest of workers'.
By the way: I recall both Margaret Thatcher and China supporting Pol Pot against Vietnamese - just because Soviet Union supported VietNam.
@ Carpe Diem, the first Albanian Orthodox bishops were consecrated by Serbian bishops...and you know that without consecrated Albo bishops we would never have had the first synod of bishops who declared the Albo church's autocephaly. I'm pretty sure you're able to understand what it meant for the Albanian nation, the practical implications of such a positive attitude towards Albos. And they are not being good at all towards their bros Macedonians' or Montenegrins re recognition of autocephaly, right bro? Secondly, if it weren't for Yugo communists, Albania would have never built its own antifascist resistance and united front. Since our catholics and 3-4 muslims resolved to collaborate with the fascis and nazis, Albania would have been definitely divided at the end of WWII, if it weren't for our partizan forces who fought alongside yugo partizans. Once again, yugos proved crucial to our victory and if we can today celebrate it's also thanks to that alliance. Atrocities have been committed from both sides during the centuries and atrocities have been committed by Albos as well, alongside Turks and Fascis. Obviously, I'm sure that the Illyrian thesis was fabricated by Austrian and German scholars for mere political goals, the most important being that of setting Albos against their Slavic and Greek neighbors. And they perfectly succeded when they joined forces with Hoxha's academy. Widespread pathological hatred for the Serbs followed Hoxha's split from his former yugo mates. There aren't any Albos who doesn't know when the 'barbaric and cruel slavic hordes' arrived in the Balkans, right? Sure, I wouldn't expect some scientific research being made by Albo scholars during Hoxha's regime. They couldn't even communicate with their colleagues in Belgrade or Rome, or Athens. So what we are talking about here? So how can I comment on Serbian scholars if i'm aware of the professional background of 'my' scholars? And btw, all we know about Serbian scholars is what our scholars have declared. Obviously, I don't trust you when you cite Nikolic. Go figure out why ;)
Leonidas: "I've asked a simple question to the poster who claimed that many historians regard modern Albanians as descendants of the ancient ones to name me one such historian who claimed as such."
I never claimed that actually, Leonidas. Genetics-wise there are no differences between Greeks, Italians and Albos, although I do believe that Albos' predecessors were Thracians' closest relatives. And I do have some evidence provided by some studies on comparative linguistics carried out by the only Albanian researcher I recognize as such, the late antifascist Eqerem Cabej :) But please don't ask me about the title of the article, don't have it at hand right now.
"I've said no serious historian would ever claim that modern peoples are direct descendants of ancient peoples, at least in terms of DNA. What really matters is continuation (e.g. culture, language, occasionally religion) which ensures the historical sense of an evolving community through time." Totally agree, dude, golden words, would have said a Greek, an Albanian, an Eskimo or an Indian :)
Everyone here is so sure of their own position about history that has happened more than 2000 years ago. As if you have a time lapse video on your iPhone and all you need to do is hit play and there you have it. The only thing that we know for sure, is that there were many wars, and with that came a lot of rapes. So believe it or not we all have common genes we share. You disect anyone in the Balkans and you'll find a piece from almost all of the current ethnic groups in them. The only thing that changed is that some 200 years ago Western Europe introduced the idea of nationalism in the Balkans and now have nationalities but the Balkans are the laughing stock of the world. Which is a shame because we didn't have a 100 years wars in the Balkans, Western Europe did. Now we can barely live which other. Part of it is also religion. Take religion away and 75 % of the problems are gone. Nobody can threaten eternal damnation if you don't become defender of God and country by not hating on other ethnicities, if religion is not around. Yet people cling to it for some reason.
I am not a scholar, Carpe Diem, but for few largely logistic reasons I am strongly for the Thracian origin. Besides, it's the only what does not raise more questions than answers.
I do not think, this does make the majority of Albanians upset. Today, "Thracian" vs. "Illyrian" is largely just a curiosity. Both groups are there for a while, at least as far as probably 3000 years.
Besides, as far as my imagination, Illyrians were largely coastal, Thracians largely mountain people.
In exchange Albanians should learn a bit more about proto-Slavonic Hittites and some agglutinative-speaking cultures of antiquity. We, too, did not came from a cave out of nowhere (at least not in last 10000 years). Before that everyone came from caves.
@ Leonidas, I don't know any not because there aren't any but most probably because this is a topic I'm not even interested in. My history books were all fabricated by quasi-scholars, the same people who are fabricating the texts which are used today in our schools. Both Greek and Turkish governments have recently asked Albo gvt to ammend those text books. Aref is a clown, a drivelling idiot. But hey, I meant what I wrote, no major Serbian scholar has ever denied that Albos are indigenous in the Balkans.
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