Croatian town's removal of Serbian Cyrillic "clear message"

Un-repentent Nazi's to the end.

Serious inferiority complex.

There could be 0 Serbs left in Croatia and they would still have a inferiority complex and paranoia when it comes to Serbs. What you have to understand is that while Serbia has a long and storied history much of which has nothing to do with Croats, Croatia's entire existence revolves around their unhealthy obsessive hatred towards Serbia.

And to think the Karadjordjevich Dynasty gave them their first state. Yugoslavism is the single greatest detriment in Serbia's history. Dare I say more than the Ottoman Empire was.

The sad fact is that while Croatia is experiencing fever-pitch Nazism, many Serbs still believe in "brotherhood and unity" and even Vucic Ghandi talks about "reconciliation".

I don't really blame the ustasa. They only do what they are able to get away with. It is a direct result of a the demonisation policy of western media and governments of the past that allows this illegal and immature denial of serbian minority rights in Croatia today.
If only we could have the rights the Albanians had in Kosovo before they started provoking trouble. If only.

In true Croat form, these unrelaible fascist-leaning liars have gone back on their word. They made the commitment to allow any ethnic group whose population constitutes 30% or more of a municipality, to use their own alphabet. The untrustworthy Croats agreed to this because it was a pre-condition to being accepted into the EU.

Reneging on their promise should come as no surprise though. They never really had any intentions of allowing Cyrillic to be used. Just as they backstabbed their former allies, the Muslims of B-H during the war.

The world is now seeing the true character of the EU's newest member.

(Croatian Canadian, 17 August 2015 18:34)

Actually, it is EU regulation that says if a community makes up at least 1/3 of the population of a given municipality, there has to be street signs in their language available. Serbia has it for Hungarians, Albanians and has the Latin alphabet where Croats and Bosniaks live. And it is not even a member of the EU. Why is it so hard for EU member Croatia to act so civilized?

Between the swastika's to the tens of thousands that Ustasha Thompson draws in on a weekly basis, to this... can you deny that there is a clear sickness within the Croat national psyche that has not gone away from the very moment you opened your first concentration camp?

It is time for Serbia to own up to its crimes. We massacred thousands of innocent people and that is a fact. It's no wonder they don't want our language.
Admitting to crimes we committed throughout the region while attempting to carve out a Greater Serbia would be our best move.
That way we could finally move on and concentrate on what's important.
A real man admits when he's wrong. It's time for Serbia to start acting like a real man instead of trying to win the propaganda war and playing the victim.
We all know the truth and we all know that Serbia was not the victim in any of the wars, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia or Kosovo.
Let's take a good look in the mirror.

This has nothing to do with Ustase or Nazi's. The fact of the matter is that Serb's who live there and who have lived there have not embraced Croatia or the Croatian culture while they often burn Croatian flags or utilize banners that state, Vukovar is Serbia...why would anyone allow that in their country?

The difference between Croats in Vojvodina vs Serbs in Vukovar is that the Croats don't live under the hope that Croatia will ever take over that region or town within that region while on the other hand, we've seen what Serbs have done in Vukovar and Krajina. We know Serbs are serving time in the Hague, In Croatia in Serbia and other parts of Europe because of the atrocities they've orchestrated and performed and for this reason, we just do not trust them...which is completely understandable.

I find it provocative that any Serb believe's we forgot what they did and that we are stupid enough to allow it to happen again. Croatia's policy for Croats within Serbia is to not comment or get involved while Serbia's policies for Serbs in Croatia is to constantly meddle into our affairs...too bad, soo sad...you reap what you sew!

I'm really tired of watching Serbs from all parts and from Vukovar discretely and not so discretely claim Vukovar is theirs...all these provocations and then you are surprised when Croatia decides they refuse to use your language...haha...assimilate or get lost!

2 things that must be never be forgotten..
(1) in occupied VUKOVAR in 1992-1998 irregulars lead by Seselj & Vucic ( SRS ) wiped out anything that was based on the Latin script. Every sign, every store was in Cirilica.

(2) Vucic quoted as saying ' For every Serb death 100 Bosniaks will perish' . and this man has the balls to question what is happening in today's Croatia....! Vucic I suggest you fix the poverty in Serbia and stop worrying about others.

PS:

You guys suck at basketball.

You also suck at Tennis.

You are only average at Soccer

You have never produced a great scientist.

Nor a great piece of literature.

You've never made an automobile.

Come to think of it, even your wine sucks.

One might ask what exactly have you achieved in these past 1200 years?

It took you 1180 years to even get a state.

You suffer from a serious inferiority complex.

PS: never forget that we use the same language (try as you may to differentiate it)

PSS: You flag is ugly too.

Loser.

hey canuck... hows that french thing going for you over there in arrogant canadistan? do not the french minority have the use of their own language, written and spoken? do they not get to use their alphabet (same alphabet with additional accents which do not exist whatsoever in english, nor the rest of canada). don't the anglo-canadians have a significant distrust and dislike of the special treatment the french minority have in canada?
so, while you lounge in your canadian high living standard, one where you openly accept and offer a duality of canadianism, an open and honest acceptance of two very distinct cultures and peoples, you suggest that croatia and its serbian minority specifically should not be allowed what it is that you offer to the rest of your country men and women in canada?
and don't pretend for one moment that the french/english history has any less blood or violence that the croat/serb history.
is it because you can't get passed some deep seeded hatred? or do you have a non-emotional reason to treat minorities like second-class citizens?

From Croatian Canadian: "This has nothing to do with Ustase or Nazi's."

When the Deputy Mayor and City Council President of Vukovar are seen on tape singing Ustasha songs, it has everything to do with Nazi's & Ustasha. Once again, you miss the point as you have so often in the past.

More from CC: "...why would anyone allow that in their country?"

For starters, you signed an agreement promising that you would. Your gov't. also promised to prosecute crimes against Serbs, repatriate Serb refugees, reinstate pensions, etc. All of which have been ignored after your entrance into the EU. Your word is worth nothing. Serbs have known this for centuries, now the rest of the world sees the true character, or lack thereof, of the Croat nation.

P.S. I see you're still obsessed with this Serbian website. Too funny.

Free and open countries are not threatened by ethnic minorities using their script.

The US has it, so does Canada.

There is no obligation to assimilate in a free society. And this quote only shows your fascist under-pinning

Nor is it not against the law to not assimilate.

Inferiority complex and probably penis envy too.

Therefore your comment

@ (skyrezo, 18 August 2015 04:57)

I agree completely. We should take up a collection to finance the fence. I'm sure you could get complete foreign funding, from Croatia.

@ (factman, 18 August 2015 03:48)

Are you suggesting you made an automobile. Don't tell me you think the Yugo is actually a car. Haha.

"One might ask what exactly have you achieved in these past 1200 years?"

Well... at least we kicked your asses.

From factman: "PS: never forget that we use the same language (try as you may to differentiate it)"

Factman, I too used to think Serbian and Croatian were the same language. However, the words 'trust, honor, character and integrity' do not exist in the Croatian vocabulary. Therefore, they must be different languages.

To me this is funny because even Serbs in Serbia don't care about Cyrillic. I read stories about intellectuals in Serbia saying Cyrillic is being forgotten and what not.

Croatian trolls on this site really are something else. From historical revisionism to overt holocaust denial there's absolutely nothing positive that can be said about you, your sad country and your total lack of any morality. Spare us the platitudes from Canada a great country sadly infiltrated by keyboard fascists who found Croatia so wonderful,they left.

Croatian inferiority complex: we are talking about a history-less nation that was born as a branch of the Serbian nation, meeting catholic religion and becoming "croatian".
There's not croatian heritage, as there's a serbian one. Their cities may be beautiful when they have been built by Italians (Venetians).
They have a pretty meaningless history, that become strongly connected to nazism in the last 80 years. Without having a soul, you find your soul in someone else. Pointless and useless nation, a bunch of nazis without any background.
And pointless nation in basketball too: "we are the number one", they were saying. After the "podiumgate" in Athens they have never been able to see podium, even with binocular. And they never will be.

I just can't understand the obsession in Serbia with what is happening in an another country. Croatia is an independent country, Serbia is another and yet still everyday the obsession in Serbia with what is going on in Croatia us remarkable.

Mind your own business, let the citizens of Croatia mind their own business and create their own future, life and country as they want.

Serbs should be putting more efforts in what is going on in Serbia, Serbian economics, education system, work places and so on.

We can all play that game: Remove all the signs - the Latin script ones too.

Every pompous little fascist Croat thinks of himself as being an Austro-Hungarian aristocrat, whereas, in fact, he is a Slav, no different from the Serbs who he fondly remembers were slaughtered by Croats in ww2.

Brotherhood and unity? Croats were never brothers, just opportunistic.

Croatia is founded on dishonour.

Yugoslavism is the single greatest detriment in Serbia's history.
(Ari Gold, 17 August 2015 17:11)

Yup... It's a shame it's too late. Serbia wanted Yugoslavia to subjugate that other Slav nations and satisfy Serbs' dreams of grandeur of greater Serbia, but ended up shooting itself in the foot! I hope it learned the lesson...

(Mr.X in Belgrade, 18 August 2015 08:54)

Europe's Nazi state on Serbia's borders are persecuting Serbs on a daily basis and being concerned with this mistreatment is an example of "obsession"? If you really are in Belgrade, you are most certainly just repeating what your NGO director tells you too. The NGO's in Belgrade are ALL about human rights, as long as those in question don't happen to be Serbs. They are fueled by millions of dollars from both the Serb state and the EU to spew auto-chauvinism. Of course that's even if you live in Belgrade at all.

(Sveti Sava, 18 August 2015 10:47)

You, there's no way you're from Serbia. It's a common trend on B92, use "we" to somehow validate your racist argument. Any time the fascist Croat regime strip Serbs of basic rights or the KLA organ traffickers attack civilian returnees, simply add "Greater Serbia" with "we", "us" etc. and that excuses treatment towards people that no other group in Europe has to endure.

The point both of you clowns try to make is liberties enjoyed by others should not be afforded to Serbs and everyone including Serbia should just look the other way while fascists continue with their decades-long policy of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

oh, my canadian friend

what is interesting is that some-odd 70 years ago croatians tried to kill every-single serb, yet in vojvodina the croatian-serbian citizens enjoy croatian as an officially recognized language with all the rights and privileges that come with it.
you seem to also have forgotten the october crisis, canada's extremely heavy-handed response and the 7 year lead up to the terrorism quebecois brought on to the rest of canada. yet, the english majority have grown past the past, much like the serb majority in vojvodina, and has accepted their troublesum-murderous minority as part of the package and treats them with full respect (perhaps not all deserved-but given nonetheless).

So many of these comments are laughable and also very revealing. Ari and njegos are truly ill-minded individuals filled with hatred and such delusional propaganda, its pointless to try and discuss anything with them...I'm convinced Peggy is a man, it doesn't have an ounce of feminism in it.

The point of contention here, is the fact that Vukovar has removed cirilica...regardless of if the Mayor sang a questionable song or if Serbs think Croats are Fascists/Nazi's, thats irrelevant to us and we can go on and on about who burned a flag or who is the bigger aggressor, at the end of the day, we Croatians feel that Serbs attacked us, murdered our people in our towns and villages, you shelled our historical cities and there was much more...

The issue in this entire scenario is this... Serbia and Serbians have yet to accept any responsibility and...they want to assume this was equally everyone's fault...which is why your leaders would like to share a memorial day with the victims...Croats and Bosnians...we, on the other hand know that you were the aggressor, why share a common day with the people that attacked and murdered our people?

Cirilica isn't really a big deal...you know it and so do we. the problem here is that Serbs insist on having their rights and the people of Vukovar have yet to get their right of JUSTICE...so as long as Serbia behaves like this, Croats will always resent them.

the healing process starts once Serbia acknowledges and repairs their own faults!

They are in the EU now. It is EU law to have minority rights respected. They are also obligated to allow refugees to return and return their property.

Well Slavonia should have never been given to Croatia in the first place. Croatia was on the losing side after WWI, yet somehow they gained Slavonia by united with the Serbs and Slovenes.
Slavonia wasn't an historical part of Croatia.
And the Serb history of Vukovar goes way way back for many hundreds of years.

The only way you'd see the "international community" react is if Serbia did something corresponding to reduce the ethnic Croat minority rights: then they'd be screaming about it.

Why Serbia wants to be in the EU which allows all this oppression against Serbs - and if Serbs think that joining the EU will enable Serbs to be able to return to any of their homes and property in the other ex-Yu areas, then they are fools who have not been paying attention and correctly interpreting the "international community's" moves and non-moves.

Jasenovac alone requires Serbs to have their own protected culture and identity in Croatia. These Croats calling for assimilation are no different from the Ustasha and need to be put into the ground.

The headline reads:
Croatian town's removal of Serbian Cyrillic "clear message"

I must admit that this headline surprised me. I didn't realize that the Serb people have made such progress.
Finally you recognize that it is a CROATIAN town.
At least it's a start. You still have a long way to go.

Y'all seen them two ugly Nazi worshipers with black ties? I like to hogtie'm with them black ties and ship'em to Bubba's kinfolk in Arkansas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj4LnfkdJDM

P.S. Y'all Nazis are as passe as Hillary Clinton!

This reeks of human rights violations, prejudice and discrimination.

For how long is Serbian government going to take this abuse!!!What a surprise,removing,bilingual,signs,why don't Serbia, close all the borders with Croatian fascist,Nazi,,Puppet state of Croatia,build the wall and electric wire ,so we can rid off this evil nation once for all!!!!There is no peace with this Savages!!!!! They can all go to Hell,is this a member of EU!!??The hell with EU,too!!!!!!No peace!!!!

jobe,

If French Quebec ever initiated, then bombarded and attempted to murder all living creatures in any one single Canadian town...you'd never see another French written piece anywhere...you are plain and simply too ignorant to see the forest from the trees!

Of course peace and love are much better than wars and hatred but in the circumstances when the US watches strictly so that no reconciliation is possible on the Balkans news that disappoints Serbs in fact is rather good for them. After 20 years of being demonized they must enjoy it when their local rivals stop to be human beings. Otherwise when the Croats remind the whole world of their Nazi past or the Bosniaks join the ISIL it mustn’t disappoint the Serbs. Same with the Shqiptars whose worldwide mafia and local nationalists will never let them be part of that is called “the civilized world”. So pragmatic Serbs must be happy if Haradinai and Thaci win the next elections in KIM and Oric comes to power in the ugly union in BIH or an Ustasha’s son of a bitch replaces their current American daughter of a bitch. On such a background Serbs will always look as morality etalon in the region.

singing a song....BURNING A CROATIAN FLAG IN FRONT OF PALACE OF JUSTICE...nothing happens to him...what do you want me to say...even steven!?!?

Croatians in Vukovar have never received reparations from Serbs, Croatians in Vukovar have never received an acknowledgement that Serbia was the aggressor...you use the fact that we are part of the EU but you cannot forget, the people of Vukovar are living amongst some of those that walk freely and are criminals!

I do not condone anyone singing the songs...they are songs I sing, but I'm not a politician!

you people should self reflect and ask yourselves...what if Vukovar happened in Serbia?

You might as well rename this website Nobodycares.com or 50yearsbehindtherestofEurope.com

Serbs were the aggressors and they lost. Not only did they lose, but they were humiliated militarily by the Croats (I guess they only know how to fight civilians) and their reputation destroyed in the international community. Right now Serbia is one of the few European nations in no man's land - not in the EU and not under Russian influence. You have no purpose, no vision and no future. You will never join the EU because you are useless and Russia will help you to the extent they did during the war. You are like the school kid that sits alone during lunch, that is, if that school kid was also a sadistic mass-murderer. Just accept your defeat, know your role, and maybe you can beg at the door of the EU for the breadcrumbs that your economy so desperately needs.

If all the municipalities have the same regulation regarding non-use of Cyrillic, why does the article focus on Vukovar, the one place that might be forgiven for bearing a large grudge? What about the other 22 offenders, what's their excuse and where are B92's attempts to get a quote from anyone involved so we can hear what they have to say? This is half an article and leaves the uninitiated at the mercy of those who, with the greatest will in the world, could not be described as impartial.

The Croatians are Catholics and in the New World Order, Catholics can do anything they want, followed closely by their spiritual cousins, the Muslims.

Hey, jobe, here is a clue. The Canadian French are Catholic the Anglo French are -- mostly -- not Catholic.

If all the municipalities have the same regulation regarding non-use of Cyrillic, why does the article focus on Vukovar, the one place that might be forgiven for bearing a large grudge? What about the other 22 offenders, what's their excuse and where are B92's attempts to get a quote from anyone involved so we can hear what they have to say? This is half an article and leaves the uninitiated at the mercy of those who, with the greatest will in the world, could not be described as impartial.
(ned taylor, 17 August 2015 18:41)
====================================
There is always an excuse and you find it.
If Croatia could really play that and be excused from doing the right thing then why didn't they?

Well... at least we kicked your asses.
(Truthlover, 18 August 2015 10:44)

If you count shooting at fleeing civilians in the 1990s, slaughtering innocent and unarmed civilians in the 1940s, and smashing signs that can hit back, then yes, you are the biggest ass kickers in Europe. It's amazing more people aren't impressed and enamored with you Slavic-speaking Aryan wannabes.

Same with the Shqiptars whose worldwide mafia and local nationalists will never let them be part of that is called “the civilized world”.
(rote, 18 August 2015 14:45)

Russian mafia is the nr. 1 in world...
Albanian never did something against the so called "civilized world", while the "civilized world" destroy our nation dear rote...
If you want to think that : Albanians, Croats, Bosnians, Slovens - are all " bad guys" while the serbs are "angels" according to you, continue like this and you and Russian will lose more credibility.

@factman

"1. Resurrected the same flag as the Ustasha"

No he didn't, the flag is older than the Ustasha movement and there is no U on the Croatian flag today like there was in the Independant State of Croatia during ww2.

"2. Rehabilitated the Ustasha in general as a movement"

No he didn't. It's still illegal, their symbols are illegal and glorifying them is also against the law. Something Serbia should consider for the Chetnik movement.

"3. Resurrected the same anthem as the Ustasha"

The anthem dates back to well before WW2, in fact he introduced the original text. The Ustasha mentioned the river Drina in their version. Today Croatia does not mention the Drina in the national anthem.

"4. Began to release Serbs from civil positions without right of recourse."

Serbs that were attempting to undermine democracy and Croatia's right to secede from Yugoslavia under the instruction of Milosevic.

"5. Presided over a cultural sentiment that brought fear and pressure to bear on the ethnic Serb ethnic minority"

That was in fact done by the Serb community itself that refused to accept the fact that Croatia could break away from the former Yugoslavia. They were obviously worried that the Greater Serbia plan was going to suffer if this happened.

factman...you've utilized several myths to support your argument, I'm not even sure where to begin?

I will quickly start by saying that it is pretty ignorant and also an uninformed comment for you to make when you say Croatia adopted an Ustasa anthem, an Ustasa flag, brought fear...and once again, you are clearly avoiding any responsibility from Serbia's and Serbian people's side...this is exactly why today, we just cannot see eye to eye.

The flag and anthem are far older than Ustastvo...and although a portion of those in WW11 were monsters, the majority did not sign up to murder innocent people...but I won't spend time trying to convince you.

on the other hand, Milosevic started Serb Nationalism, he also organized the Novi Sad demonstrations, he even blacked out this media B92 because people protested him, part of The Hague indictment was that starting in 1987, Milosevic "endorsed a Serbian nationalist agenda" and "exploited a growing wave of Serbian nationalism...this is all documented...Milosevic was a beast...Serbs followed him!

regarding you claim Serbs were scared and lost jobs...there's not enough space to discuss this but ask yourself...what ethnic group dominated the JNA? in Croatia, what minority held the most government jobs? why would a Serb be a mayor or chief of police in a Croatian town if it was more than 85% Croatian?

Serbs have always been the aggressors...tell me where the wars have been fought? in Serbia or in Croatia, BiH, Slovenia...???

Croatian Canadian:

In your prior post to me you said I based my post on "myths"

I have provided examples form the NY Times that show it is not myth.

Here is one more: Fascists Reborn as Croatia's Founding Fathers

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/04/12/world/fascists-reborn-as-croatia-s-founding-fathers.html

##

Regarding your post that Serbs are paranoid about RS, the ambassador says these words:

"Under Dayton BiH is a country of two entities, and with the UK and our partners as guarantors of the peace agreement, that's how it will stay"


Now, lets just change a few words:

"Under the Treaty of Versailles, Yugoslavia is a country of 6 republics, and with international powers as guarantors of this treaty, that's how it will stay"

##

Dayton is threatened each day because Bosnia cannot succeed as an economic entity under the current makeup - hence the desire to federalize

From Croatian Canadian: "The issue in this entire scenario is this... Serbia and Serbians have yet to accept any responsibility and...they want to assume this was equally everyone's fault..."

Wrong again Ustasha Boy. The issue here is that although Croatia promised to respect their Serb minority so that their EU masters would accept them into their club, they never really had any intention of living up to their commitments. As soon as Croatia entered the EU there was a drastic increase in Croats embracing their fascist Ustasha past culminating with the election of Kolinda who is quickly becoming the joke of Europe. Repatriation of Serb refugees, reinstatement of pensions, prosecuting those who committed crimes against Serbs all have fallen by the wayside. And you say Serbs should just shut up and assimilate.

More from our Ustasha-taught friend: "the healing process starts once Serbia acknowledges and repairs their own faults!"

Can you really say that with a straight face? On this forum you have stated Croat superiority over Serbs, degraded Jews, minimized the number of Jews and Serbs killed in WWII and stated your pride in the Ustasha regime. Tell me, when do you start acknowledging the faults of your Ustasha relatives and countrymen. As much as you would like to forget that ugly chapter in history, Serb never will.

@Factman

"6. Wrote literature stating that Jasenovac did not happen or minimized it away"

No he didn't. Jasenovac happened. It's a disgrace to humanity. However, pumping the numbers to support a Serbian myth is wrong. I've even heard claims of 700,000!! If so many were killed how can you explain census numbers that show a slight increase in Serb population immediately after WW2? You'd think that killing 700,000 would put a dent in the number of serbs.

"7. Publicly wrote that he thanked God his wife was neither a Jew nor a Serb"

I've never seen that, prove it.

Croatia's allegations against Serbia:

426. "The Court addresses the findings of the ICTY. It notes that, according to the latter, the political objective being pursued by the leadership of the Serb Autonomous Region (SAO) of Krajina and then the RSK, and shared with the leaderships in Serbia and in the Republika Srpska in Bosnia and Herzegovina, was to unite Serb areas in Croatia and in Bosnia and Herzegovina with Serbia in order to establish a unified territory, and to establish an ethnically Serb territory through the displacement of the Croat and other non-Serb population through a campaign of persecutions. The Court further notes that, according to the conclusions of the ICTY, the acts that constitute the actus reus of genocide within the meaning of Article II (a) and (b) of the Convention were not committed with intent to destroy the Croats, BUT rather with that of forcing them to leave the regions concerned so that an ethnically homogeneous Serb State could be created. The Court agrees with this conclusion."

duhhhhh....we all know what you people just do not care to admit!

the dream of velika Srbija is dead!

revealing!!! Serbs are satisfied they didn't get a judgement of genocide against them...although its exactly what happened BUT when you read further, an international court saw that Serbs were forcing them (Croats) to leave the regions concerned so that an ethnically homogeneous Serb State could be created. The Court agrees with this conclusion."

In the appeals case therefore, the only question was whether Judge Orie’s Chamber had properly concluded that Serbs had been ethnically cleansed from the four towns of Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac and Gracac,even though Judge Orie’s Chamber concluded that they had not been deported from any other part of the “Krajina.” The majority of the Appeals Chamber concluded that Serbs from these four towns were not expelled by Croatian forces.

The conclusions from these two ICTY judgments in the Gotovina case are undeniable: the Croatian leadership did not have any intent to murder or expel Croatian Serbs, and it did not intend to destroy and loot their property. It did not expel the Serb population. Concretely: the Croatian leadership did not have a criminal political policy towards the Serb minority in Croatia.

One of the goals of the establishment of the ICTY in 1993 was that a record of history of the events of the 1990s could be created by an independent, international body, freeing the people of southeast Europe from mythical histories created by elites. the findings: On the Serbian side was a criminal political agenda and resulted in deaths of tens of thousands Croatia/Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the expulsion of hundreds of thousands. On the Croatian side: no criminal plan directed at the Serbian minority, although crimes were committed on the Croatian side as well. Croatia launched a legitimate military operation which it was entitled to do under international law.

Truthlover, you are changing the topic.

You countered my post and ridiculed it.

When I provide proof (point by point), you change the subject.

You asked for proof that Tudjman said: "Thank God my wife is neither Serb nor Jew". Well, provided it for you.

You miss the point on the Swastika. The point is as follows:

The swastika is actually a scared symbol and ancient. However due to its misuse, it cannot be used today. The Croatian coat of arms however can be used -- yet it too was misused. That's the point.

*** The Croatian people are a good people ***

Their leaders suck and they infect their people with bad ideology

Finally you recognize that it is a CROATIAN town.
(Truthlover, 18 August 2015 15:12)

If by CROATIAN town you mean poor, isolated, emptying of people, and full of inbred nationalists with a humongous inferiority complex, then yes. It is indeed a CROATIAN town.

If you count shooting at fleeing civilians in the 1990s, slaughtering innocent and unarmed civilians in the 1940s...
(Factchecker, 18 August 2015 21:07)

Oh please save your lies for someone else. The ICTY found that 44 people lost their lives during operation Storm. Pumping the numbers may seem like it's helping serbia play the victim, but everybody knows the truth including serbia.
Of those 44, 26 perpetrators were criminally prosecuted by the Croatian state. How many were killed in the twisted Krajina region before it finally saw freedom in August 95? How many of those murders were prosecuted by the self-proclaimed Krajina state? None!
You used murder and persecution for 5 years, driving everything non-serb out, and then when Croatia liberated the land you start screaming about being victims.
Not to mention that serbian general Novaković was in such a rush to leave that he ran over his own people with his tanks at Dvor.
Such a shame that serbia is creating new myths to feed off of.

Serbia's allegations against Croatia:

472. "The Court concludes from the foregoing that it is unable to find that
there was any indiscriminate shelling of the Krajina towns
deliberately intended to cause civilian casualties. It would only be
in exceptional circumstances that it would depart from the findings
reached by the ICTY on an issue of this kind. Serbia has indeed drawn
the Court’s attention to the controversy aroused by the Appeals
Chamber’s Judgment. However, no evidence, whether prior or subsequent
to that Judgment, has been put before the Court which would
incontrovertibly show that the Croatian authorities deliberately
intended to shell the civilian areas of towns inhabited by Serbs. In
particular, no such intent is apparent from the Brioni Transcript. Nor
can such intent be regarded as incontrovertibly established on the
basis of the statements by persons having testified before the ICTY
Trial Chamber in the Gotovina case, and cited as witnesses by Serbia
in the present case."

also...please note what Milosevic said:

Milosevic: "Tamo je palo naređenje da svi izađu iz Krajine istog dana, čak bez stvorenog kontakta sa hrvatskom vojskom na najvećem delu fronta. Da smo istog tog dana napravili idiotsku glupost da im pomognemo, ko bi to stigao do Knina do večeri da im pomogne?! Pa, tamo ne bi moglo da se stigne od njihovih kolona kojima su zakrčili sve putove u bežaniji zajedno sa stanovništvom."

Serbs ran like rabbits...Milosevic knows that!

On 4 and 5 August, Croatia commemorated its own victory over another criminal politics: the liberation of one-third of Croatian territory from the so-called “Republika Srpska Krajina,” which the Hague Tribunal in the case of Milan Martic has already declared beyond reasonable doubt was a Joint Criminal Enterprise on Croatian territory. According to the tribunal’s judgment, the RSK was a criminal enterprise controlled from Belgrade which had as its purpose the creation of an ethnically-pure greater Serbia through the persecution and deportation of all non-Serbs from occupied Croatian territories. The International Court of Justice confirmed this conclusion in its judgment in the Croatia v. Serbia genocide case.

The Hague Tribunal has concluded that there was no criminal intent on the part of the Croatian leadership towards the Croatian Serbs. Even in the first instance trial judgment in which General Gotovina was falsely convicted, Judge Orie’s Trial Chamber unanimously concluded that President Tudjman and the Croatian leadership had no intention to allow Serbs to be murdered, or their homes to be destroyed or property stolen. This is now the unanimous conclusion of every judge at the ICTY, both at the trial and appeal levels. Although Judge Orie’s Trial Chamber (falsely) concluded that Serbs had been ethnically cleansed from Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac and Gracac, it concluded that Serbs had not been ethnically cleansed from any other part of the “Krajina.”

Truthlover - I'm not sure where you're getting your census data, but if you're relying on Tito-era communist-run Yugoslavia's numbers you're more naieve than I thought. Tito, a Croat himself, did everything he could to cover up the crimes of the Ustasha to promote his Brotherhood & Unity ideology. It was taboo to speak of crimes committed against Serbs post WWII. It is a well know fact that Tito supressed Ustasha crimes.

Regarding your revisionism of Serbs killed during Storm, the international organization of Veritas puts the number of Serbs killed at 1,853, 1,202 of which were civilians and 75% of them over the age of 60. Among those killed were 545 women, again most over 60 years of age.

And there were many Serbs who were too old and / or too sick to leave. In the aftermath of Storm, many were found with their throats slit.

This is what you and your proud countrymen celebrate as the greatest military victory in Croatia's history. Croatia, with the help of the US and the NATO alliance, outnumbered the Serbs 7:1. I guess when you've spent over 900 years as vassals of the A-H Empire, butchering civilians is considered a military victory to you guys.

PS:

*** I also think the Albanian people are a good people ***

*** And I don't think you are a bad fellow either ***

I just feel like the ENTIRE story needs to be told, not just selected portions.

And I am the first to say that Serbs can be arrogant, hot-headed, chavaunistic, and difficult. And that many unspeakable acts of violence were committed by Serbs against many innocents in the 90's (and to some degree in WW2 and the Balkan Wars). And that Milosevic and his policies were a great stain to the nation's history. And that it is necessary for Serbs to admit these things.

Truthlover - Here's a quote from a Canadian officer who was there during Operation Storm. What was his motivation to say this if it wasn't true? And to date, no one has been prosecuted for these crimes.

According to the CBC, Canadian officers documented numerous Croat atrocities during Operation Storm and find it entirely baffling that not one person of those who committed vicious war crimes has been arrested and brought before the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

“Just amazing. You can see the holes in the back of the head,” said Capt. Gerry Carron, showing pictures he took to document the killings.

“We found people in wells,” he said. “There was an old lady we found head-first in a well. Why did they do that?”

I could go on and on. Please don't tell me that the Hague was unbaised. Several legal scholars have questioned the validity and fairness of a court that was funded by the NATO alligned countries, the same alliance that bombed the Serbs. Please, for the Hague to find Croats guilty of war crimes would equate to the US, Germany, Britain, et al to admit that they made a mistake during the wars of the 90s.

Interestingly, these same Croat allies didn't attend the celebrations for Storm. Seems that your friends are discovering your true colors.

CC:

I am sorry you lost a cousin.

There is much truth in what you say, Serbs are guilty of much for 1991-95

There is also much that needs to be cleaned up from WW2. What you resist persists. It's not going to go away.

Peace.

I won't write on this topic anymore.

Well... at least we kicked your asses.
(Truthlover, 18 August 2015 10:44)

Who's we?
As Bill O'Reilly said the other night to one of his guests: "We! what is this 'we' I keep hearing? You got a mouse in your pocket?"
If you're trying to say "we" the Croats, then you're wishfully thinking, speaking, and celebrating.

We = "Howard McBane" aka NATO and your sorry little blood-thirsty Ustasha Cockroaches. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnk7RRA0pXs

truthlover: Your revisionism is shameful. Your attempt to minimize Nazi Croatian Ustasha crimes is appalling. Here's what German General Hermann Neubacher had to say about the number of Serbs butchered by your countrymen: "...When prominent Ustase leaders claimed that they slaughtered a million Serbs (including babies, children, women and old men), that is, in my opinion, a boastful exaggeration. On the basis of the reports submitted to me, I believe that the number of defensless victims slaughtered to be three-quarters of a million."

The Simon Wiesenthal Center, the foremost authority on Nazi crimes, lists similar numbers.

Now, I ask you truthlove, Should we believe this very credible German source who was aligned with your savage brethren and the other, renowned for hunting down Nazi war criminals, or you, an anonymous apologist for the Croatian cause? Please tell us your credentials and your educational and professional background. Until then, you're just another revisionist liar. Hit the road punk.

@Factman
Completely contaminated facts.
The Chicago Tribune?
Chicago is the American city with the largest Serb community. How are we to know that the Tribune is not biased? Or that the author of the article is not Serbian?
Not a very reliable source.

Isn't Chicago where Rod Blagojevich is from?
You know the American-Serb politician that was governor of Illinois and tried to sell Obama's vacant seat in the senate and got impeached and sentenced to 12 years in prison?
I believe his Federal Bureau of Prisons number is 40892-424.

@factman

It never ceases to amaze me how much serbs can lie.
Where did you see the swastika rehabilitated?
Do you just make things up and then accuse people of them?
You people really need to stop lying to yourselves, that's the main thing here. The rest of the world is obviously not blinking to your claims (and only your claims) that Croatia is a revival of a Nazi state.
Forget about SANU II. Start working for yourselves. Playing the victim just in an attempt to equate guilt in a war that you lost doesn't help anyone. Least of all yourselves.
It's as if you think you'll run into the UN assembly chamber and scream "NAZI !!!" while pointing a finger at Croatia and suddenly every other country will take your side. Either that or you think that claiming Croatia is a revived Nazi state will cover up all the atrocities serbs committed in Croatia during the war.
You people are pathetic. It's really a shame. You have so much potential but you just keep digging the hole under yourselves deeper and deeper.
Slipping back into wartime rhetoric only digs the hole deeper.

You seem to be a historical revisionist and a holocaust denier.

The entire agenda of you guys is to pin all blame ror start of the Civil Wars on Serbia, but the NY yi es has a more nuanced view of the matter.

One purpose of journalism is that it mainatains a historical record of what happened each day in history.

The items below and in my prior posts are all facts and they clearly show a policy and strategy to force an outcome for indepenedence that threatened Serbs who only 50 years before were to be "33% exterminated; 33% converted; 33% exiled"

You however have only propvided propaganda and historical revisionism or you need to go back to school

Here are some more gems from perhaps this most embarrasing obituary at the NY Times that I have read in quite some time.

See NY Times Dec 11, 1992 - Tudjman is Dead; Led Country Out of Yugoslavia

Contributed heavily to the collapse of the Yugoslav Federation of and the defeat of the whole concept of South Slav brotherhood

Accomplished his goal of driving ethnic Serbs from what he viewed as purely Croatian land

"A Jew is still a Jew. Even in camps they retained their bad characteristics: selfishness, perfidy, meanness, slyness and treachery"

In 1967, he signed petition demanding the linguistic separation of Serbo-Croatian language, which had also been a project of the Ustase.

Heavily financed by members of the Croatian diaspora, especially by remnants of the Ustase movement

I've been reading through some of these comments and have noticed how much Serbian people are not just misinformed, they also are very paranoid.

yesterday I came across an article, it was written by Edward Ferguson, British Ambassador to BiH...and before any of you start claiming Brits are friends of Croats, please...gimme a darn break...that couldn't be further from the truth!

this is a snippet of what he said:

REPUBLIKA SRPSKA. IT’S HERE TO STAY. SO CAN WE MOVE ON NOW?
During my first year here, I have been struck by just how much political energy in the RS is spent on worrying about imagined threats to its continued existence. Political speeches have little to say about the really serious problems facing ordinary people in Republika Srpska, and across BiH, with a struggling economy, high unemployment and rampant corruption. Instead, a picture is painted of an RS beset by enemies, domestic or foreign. This is the politics of insecurity, not of hope. But this insecurity is at least excessive and, in my view, needless.

The reality is that there is no threat to the continued existence of the RS. Yes, there are occasional calls by Bosniaks, Croats or others for its abolition. But these are just as unacceptable as Serb attempts to undermine the State judicial institutions or to promote secession. Under Dayton, BiH is a country of two Entities and, with the UK and our partners as guarantors of the Peace Agreement, that’s how it will stay....

factman...Za Dom...Spremni is very old and has been known throughout the whole of the Croatian history, from the times of Nikola Subic Zrinski (1556 – 1566), and as such it does not signify any so called “Ustashe attribute” with which it is most likely burdened.The Ustashas of WWII Croatia had adopted the salutation and it has thus been wickedly portrayed solely as a Nazi salutation. But not all Croatia was Ustashi run. The same stigma to Croatian history has throughout past two decades been put by some western media through the Croatian Currency “Kuna” and to the Croatian flag with red-white check-board, which also have roots in deep proud history, long before WWII.

This salutation was used in historical times including times of Nikola Subic Zrinski in battles against the Turks/Ottoman (1556 – 1566.) and hundreds of years later in times of Ban Josip Jelacic (1850’s) during times of Austrian Empire when Croatia wanted autonomy and harsh battles fought.

you said: "Now, lets just change a few words:

"Under the Treaty of Versailles, Yugoslavia is a country of 6 republics, and with international powers as guarantors of this treaty, that's how it will stay"

Milosevic was and is responsible for this mess, not Croatia. I explained some of his actions in my comment below...everything he did was well documented and many Serbs today agree that he did instigate, create Nationalism, made it clear to Croatia that his plan of a greater Serbia started in the late 80's.

Hey Truthlover - If Serbs are such liars, why then did the Croat gov't. spend millions of dollars to US PR firms to influence the western media? John Harff, a high ranking executive from Ruder Finn stated that their objective was to create an image of the Serbs to equate them with the Nazis. If the truth was on your side, why the need to 'create images' and slant the truth. I suggest you pick up the book, Media Cleansing by Peter Brock, an award-winning journalist with the NY Times. Then you will see who employed propaganda to win the war of lies. And believe me it wasn't the Serbs. But then again, you guys have been trying to cleanse your image since before WWII when you were the real Nazis. No surprise.

factman - You're somewhat new to this forum. Allow me to enlighten you bout Croatian Canadian. He pops in every now and again to make his anti-Serb comments, then disappears when his comments are challenged. His favorite rebuttal is to reprint Milosevic's words over and over again. His tactic is to begin his arguments well after Tudjman was elected and began firing Serbs from their jobs, their property vandalized and many killed. As we know, this all happened well before any JNA troops rolled into Croatia. He refuses to acknowledge that Croatia broke international law and the Yugoslav constitution with their premature secession. Because Germany & US supported it, that makes it right. Not surprisingly, he puts all the blame on Serbs and shamelessly begins his arguments well after Croatia stoked the embers of civil war. Serbs should just assimilate or leave according to him.

He claims that because no one has been prosecuted for war crimes during Operation Storm, no crimes were committed. This is the shallow mentality that you are dealing with here. Keep in mind that he comes from an Ustasha family and he has stated that Croats are superior to Serbs, he has degraded Jews, minimized the number of Serbs and Jews killed during WWII and proudly sings Ustasha songs. To engage him in an intellectual discussion or debate is futile. Just a little background on the forum's Ustasha-taught participant.

Truthlover,

You still have not addressed the points in those damning articles. Or that terribly embarrasing obituary for your founding father.

Serbs influenced what was written by the NY times? That's funny. Tudjman's obituary came 5 years after the war ended! You are silly.

To paraphrade your friend CC: OnThe purpose of newspaers is to publish a historical record that can be shown to future generations. The NY times is the newspaper of record in the entire world.

Your nation's mythologies are pathetic.

You are of the same blood group as me according to DNA tests.

You have the same language as me, try as you may to differentiate it.

If we ever met, we'd probably look very much alike.

You live in one of the most ethnically homogenous state in Europe. Karma is a boomerang. What goes around, comes around. You'll see.

Its not your fault. Tribal mythologies are very strong. And it is hard to stand up to your tribe. I have stood up to my tribe and tell them where they are wrong. Even in this forum. That is the mark of manhood. You are just a boy.

truthlover,

Ummmm...... everything you say is wrong.

I believe Cosic was speaking not just if Serbs, but of the human condition. The human vulnerabilities which tempt people to lie.

it is actually a remarkable and humanistic perception. I guess thats whupy he's a celebrated author in the world, because he can understand the human predicament and then write about it.

You may not understand this because your mythologies say you are of a great Aryan people who are strong! Hehe.

factman, regarding the NY Times article.

an article is most often written by a person that has an opinion, we see it everyday. does this make the article factual or just an opinion? I can present you with tons of articles from an anti Serbian perspective, does this make it true?

the reason I used direct quotes from the ICTY is because those quotes are the most accurate, whether we agree or not, the investigations performed are neither Serbian nor Croatian...they don't include your spin or mine, they have no skin in this.

you quoted "kill Serbs", are you going to say you've never heard Serbs say "kill Hrvati"? come on man, this is elementary...tell me you've never seen the videos of Serbs singing "Bit će mesa, klat ćemo Hrvate"!?!? tell me you've never seen Serbs burning Croatian flags during a soccer game or in front of a government building in Beograd...there are ignorant people everywhere!

"Why did they arm themselves?" - this is really quite simple. there is absolutely no question that Serbs and Serbia were aggressors and this war was caused by them, its a true finding in the case at the Hague, end of story.

njegos likes to use the "illegal" theory, that Croatia "broke International law" while he forgets that the Serbs claimed Krajina..."illegally" and they were never recognized. also, njegos goes on and on about PR Firms...and yet, video footage and factual documentaries are there for him and he believes Hollywood made those...Cosic was right!

when I look through these comments, its obvious why there is hatred and wars. neither of us, Croats or Serbs will back off on what we believe to be true. Croatians certainly feel and believe we were attacked and devastated, Serbs feel and believe we started this...one side (Serbia) had the luxury of weapons, the other (Croatia) used whatever they could get their hands on which was for the majority of the war...far less sophisticated!

people didn't just get killed, many were tortured, mutilated, raped and towns weren't just overtaken...many were burned to the ground...ask yourself, where did this happen? who was left to deal with the atrocities and aftermath?

we will never forget what happened from 1991-1995, I lost a cousin defending Vukovar. in many cases, justice was not served to the families of Vukovar. several criminals, killers, aggressors that murdered innocent people, walk the streets of Vukovar today. Many that left, still claim residency although they live elsewhere...cirilica is not above justice, justice has to prevail in order for people to move on.

I don't hate Serbs, but I hate those, like njegos, that aren't fair or humane but believe they are. we are talking about people that lived through hell and shouldn't have to re-live history. I doubt Russia, Serbia, USA or any other country would accept cirilica after all what happened.

I saw an example the other day, Brownsville, TX 90% Mexican and yet everything is written in English!

factman,

over the past several years, I've read several articles from the NY Times that have been been very pro Croatian. with that said, at times I've actually read articles where I knew what was written was skewed in Croatia's favor and in some other cases, I knew there were articles in favor of Kosovo and that they were inaccurate.

sorry but you're wrong! there are no teams of attorneys fact checking or approving articles before they hit the press, I assure you this is an incorrect statement. many articles are written incorrectly and biased, depending on the writers views and not facts.

WW11 is a whole nother story. there was backstabbing after backstabbing...atrocious crimes to humanity, unspeakable and unimaginable atrocities committed by Ustase...and others. I recognize some committed more atrocities than others, targeting people is unjust, insane, irresponsible and unforgivable but thankfully, I had nothing to do with that part of history.

the one part in particular that I feel is really ignorant on our side is the fact that we argue the numbers of deaths...and its also baffling when people inflate the numbers as well. at the end of the day, we committed crimes and sins, its undeniable.

with that said, I think its really telling that we discuss Vukovar, the atrocities Serbs committed from '91-'95 only to then get Serbian people bringing up something from 70 years ago, as if its now relevant?

its called avoiding and admitting fault!

factman,
over the past several years, I've read several articles from the NY Times that have been been very pro Croatian. with that said, at times I've actually read articles where I knew what was written was skewed in Croatia's favor and in some other cases, I knew there were articles in favor of Kosovo and that they were inaccurate.

sorry but you're wrong! there are no teams of attorneys fact checking or approving articles before they hit the press, I assure you this is an incorrect statement. many articles are written incorrectly and biased, depending on the writers views and not facts.

WW11 is a whole nother story. there was backstabbing after backstabbing...atrocious crimes to humanity, unspeakable and unimaginable atrocities committed by Ustase...and others. I recognize some committed more atrocities than others, targeting people is unjust, insane, irresponsible and unforgivable but thankfully, I had nothing to do with that part of history.

the one part in particular that I feel is really ignorant on our side is the fact that we argue the numbers of deaths...and its also baffling when people inflate the numbers as well. at the end of the day, we committed crimes and sins, its undeniable.

with that said, I think its really telling that we discuss Vukovar, the atrocities Serbs committed from '91-'95 only to then get Serbian people bringing up something from 70 years ago, as if its now relevant?

avoiding and admitting fault!

njegos...say something new and factual for once, you're so predictable and dishonest...I can't make it through a paragraph of what you write...same crap, different day. even the Serbs on here don't respect you!

now this is even funnier than the last comment you made!

first, you said "PR firms were hired to create an image of Serbs that was to be equated with the Nazis"...well njegos, Nazi's did exactly what Serbs did, nobody needed any help to get that message across to anyone!

you then said: "Your Croat gov't. spent millions to distort the truth and slant the western media"

here's my answer...distort what? the fact that you Serbs had concentration camps and that you committed mass atrocities and massacre's..and worse?

you are saying we tried to portray you incorrectly and yet, your people did exactly what I commented on...they put innocent civilians in concentration camps and massacred towns and villages...what do you expect the media to report? nobody needs a PR Team to demonstrate the monstrous behaviors!

I'm shocked you would think a PR Team would distort the severity of massacre's and "CONCENTRATION CAMPS"...HAHAHA...thats hilarious!

who in their right mind thinks a PR Team is gonna do a better job of playing out facts...nobody needs more evidence, your crimes are some of the worse in history!

Croatian Canadian,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

You might ask yourself what prompted those Krajina/ Knin Serbs to gather arms to defend themselves?

You and others have painted a picture of armed Serbs rampaging for more territory.

However, you forget some inconvenient truths which pre-dated that call to arms.

Instead of calming an ethnic minority who only 50 years before was sent to Concentration camps not far from there, your President:

1. Resurrected the same flag as the Ustasha
2. Rehabilitated the Ustasha in general as a movement
3. Resurrected the same anthem as the Ustasha
4. Began to release Serbs from civil positions without right of recourse.
5. Presided over a cultural sentiment that brought fear and pressure to bear on the ethnic Serb ethnic minority
6. Wrote literature stating that Jasenovac did not happen or minimized it away
7. Publicly wrote that he thanked God his wife was neither a Jew nor a Serb

etc,etc,etc

The first thing he should have done was welcome his ethnic minorities and make them feel safe, but he did the opposite.

No Serb in his right mind will just sit there and wait for 1942 to repeat itself, especially since many had witnessed or even survived WW2 in those same killing fields.

@ njegos

Just look up the numbers in the last census taken before WW2 and the first taken after WW2. If so many were killed why is it that the numbers don't add up. Seems to me that somebody has been pumping for years to make it seem more atrocious.
I don't condone the killing of a single person, but I also refuse to support false truths.
You can call it revisionism, perhaps a revision of lies that have been pumped up for more than 50 years is necessary.
You're trying to do the same with operation Storm. Claiming that Croatia killed 600 (or is it already 6,000 now?). Claiming that Croatia expelled so many. They all left on their own accord, refusing to accept Croatia's internationally recognized borders. Leaving under threat of being killed by their own people if they chose to stay.

More gems for Historical Revisionists

All of this done BEFORE Serbs went to arms (not after)

One purpose of Journalism is to document what happens so revisionism cannot take place and can be called out.


According to Chicago Tribune
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-02-15/news/9201150025_1_serbs-croatian-president-franjo-tudjman-peacekeepers-arrival

Tudjman has been problematic for some time and seemed to go out of their way to alienate the territory`s 600,000 Serbs.

They changed the constitution to render Serbs virtual non-citizens, for example, and banned the Cyrillic alphabet, used by Serbs but not Croats.

To many Serbs, these new manifestations of Croatian nationalism were disturbingly reminiscent of Nazi-inspired atrocities of the 1940s, when Croatia was an Axis puppet state and hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews and Gypsies were slaughtered.

Many Serbs fear that attitudes of that period have yet to be expunged from Croatian society and the government in Zagreb.

Tudjman`s repugnant comments (``Thank god my wife is neither a Serb nor a Jew”).....

You are not only seem to be a historical revisionist, but also a holocaust denier

The. entir agenda is to make it seem Serbs began the Civil War, but it appears the NYT has a more nuanced view of the matter

Here are some more gems from perhaps this most embarrasing obituary.

See NY Times Dec 11, 1992 - Tudjman is Dead; Led Country Out of Yugoslavia

Contributed heavily to the collapse of the Yugoslav Federation of and the defeat of the whole concept of South Slav brotherhood

Accomplished his goal of driving ethnic Serbs from what he viewed as purely Croatian land

In 1967, he signed petition demanding the linguistic separation of Serbo-Croatian language, which had also been a project of the Ustase.

Heavily financed by members of the Croatian diaspora, especially by remnants of the Ustase movement

@fatman

So much effort to portray Croats as Nazis.
Let's talk about what the serbs did in their self proclaimed krajina region between 91-95.
Interesting how this little part of recent history get's avoided by serbs so often.
They concentrate on a 70 year old history then skip 91-95 and go right to 95 and whine how they were expelled.
When in reality their leaders lead them out in an organized manner.
Expect for those poor civilians that serb general Mile Novaković ran over with his tanks in Dvor because he was in such a rush to get away.
There's a war crime serbia should investigate. Half of the equation is acceptable: serbs are the victims. Sorry if the bloodthirsty Nazi Croats aren't to blame for that one.

You seem to be a historical revisionist and a holocaust denier.

The entire agenda of you guys is to pin all blame ror start of the Civil Wars on Serbia, but the NY yi es has a more nuanced view of the matter.

One purpose of journalism is that it mainatains a historical record of what happened each day in history.

The items below and in my prior posts are all facts and they clearly show a policy and strategy to force an outcome for indepenedence that threatened Serbs who only 50 years before were to be "33% exterminated; 33% converted; 33% exiled"

You however have only propvided propaganda and historical revisionism or you need to go back to school

Here are some more gems from perhaps this most embarrasing obituary at the NY Times that I have read in quite some time.

See NY Times Dec 11, 1992 - Tudjman is Dead; Led Country Out of Yugoslavia

Contributed heavily to the collapse of the Yugoslav Federation of and the defeat of the whole concept of South Slav brotherhood

Accomplished his goal of driving ethnic Serbs from what he viewed as purely Croatian land

"A Jew is still a Jew. Even in camps they retained their bad characteristics: selfishness, perfidy, meanness, slyness and treachery"

In 1967, he signed petition demanding the linguistic separation of Serbo-Croatian language, which had also been a project of the Ustase.

Heavily financed by members of the Croatian diaspora, especially by remnants of the Ustase movement

CC,

it appears you are not reading my posts (10-12 posts down) which were written to Truthlover or you are ignoring them

In those posts, i addressed both your main issues

Re: Kuna, checkerboard, Za dom spremni, etc...... I provided an example of how the Swastika is an ancient and sacred symbol to many peoples. but due to its misuse, it can no longer be used. Several generations would need to pass until it could be re-used or rehabilitated. but Croats continue to use their "synonyms" for Swastika. You ignore comment on this thesis

Next, you paint a benign picture of your symbols. But the "spirit" of its use is not benign as you paint it. It is aggressive, appealing to base human instincts. And many times it is followed by: "Kill Serbs." The most recent link from NY Times illustrates this well. So you seem to be disingenuous or sheltered

Additionally, you and Truthlover have yet to respond to various NY Times articles and US Holocaust Museum pages.

Instead, you state your thesis: Serbs were agressors. And then provided excerpts from Milosevic's trial to support (even though this was not my original question to you)

My thesis asked a deeper question: Why did they arm themselves?

I stated my case and provided numerous excerpts to support. Those articles provide a historical record that is hard to refute.

i responded to your posts. You choose to ignore mine

We have nothing more to talk about

You peddle myth

Truthlover,

Your methodolgy is as follows:

1. Counter the offense of the other guy by saying his sources are "disreputable."
-- Ok, i will say your source is disreputable too.
-- Your court is financed by the same countries that sided with you in the Yugoslav Civil Wars

2. Change the subject to something else (In this case the trials of Milosevic)
-- OK, we can have that discussion next (after we finish this discussion)
-- You are clearly changing the subject

Post Note:
The NY Times is the newspaper of record in the world. The NY Times says that Serbs took up arms because they saw the same mentalities forming against them as in 1941. See the obituary of your founding father Tudjman.

To praphrase CC: "One purpose of journalism is to create a historical record of what happens each day in the world."

PS: You suck at tennis, soccer, and basketball

Thanks Njegos.

Spot on analysis.

Truthlover:

You wrote:

Just look up the numbers in the last census taken before WW2 and the first taken after WW2. If so many were killed why is it that the numbers don't add up. Seems to me that somebody has been pumping for years to make it seem more atrocious.

Prove it.

Show the numbers.

Make your case.

Lets see what you are made of.

I dare you.

Do it.

My numbers show something else.

CC:

Of course they did.

I have stated that below.

You read only selectively.

CC:

Very “slippery” of you.

Yes, it is written by a human, but:

1. Teams of Editors of prestigious organizations (like the NY Times -- the paper of record around the world -- with more than a hundred years of experience and track record) must approve them.

2. Obituaries go thru even more checks and balances because they must stand the test of time – or open themselves up to libel.

3. Therefore teams of attorneys must also sign off. Those attorneys make damn sure that what is said can be supported.

“Your” court is financed by those who sided with you in a civil war.

As they say: “Follow the money”

##

Yes, Serbs are guilty of those things that you say and they should not do it because it is wrong to do so.

CC:

What you resist will only persist.

Paragraph 7

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449

To paraphrase CC: "It is now 70 years later"

When will the hundreds of thousands of forgotten dead get their acknowledgement?

When will they get their day in court?

When will attention be paid?

When will it happen?

From Croatian Canadian: "njegos...say something new and factual for once..."

I challenge you to prove anything that I have said was not true. In the past when I've asked you questions and challenged you on topics, you've run away and disappeared for awhile because you could never support anything you've ever said. Will you run away again, or will you post Milosevic's comments for the 75th time? Talk about being predictable.

More from CC: "...I can't make it through a paragraph of what you write...same crap..."

Seems you make it through all of what I write. Why else would you be responding?

"....even the Serbs on here don't respect you!"

Aww, there you go hurting my feelings again. After you take a course in effective debating, I suggest you enroll in a good sensitivity training class.

I knew this would end up like this. you made some very delusional comments regarding a "PR Team" and that the Croatian government spent money trying to portray Serbs as Nazi's....they acted like Nazi's, nobody had to portray them in any other way. I didn't want to get into this very silly debate because I knew you'd do exactly what you did...you changed the topic, as usual and brought up 70 year old history...which you need a lesson on.

I answered you. When the media presented Vukovar to the world, they didn't need a PR team as you suggested they did. when the media presented the concentration camps to the world, they didn't need anyone to tell them that there haven't been camps since WW11, thanks to you Serbs.

this topic is about cirilica and why Croatians do not accept it in Vukovar, it has nothing to do with WW11...which is why I hardly ever respond to you. you take what happened here and spin it and try to justify rather than to acknowledge, accept and move on.

the Hague is filled with Serb criminals, you should know that!

another funny story you tell is how Croatia "illegally" declared Independence. here's a fact for you...Serbs in Krajina declared independence and nobody recognized them....Croatia declared independence and the world recognized us. do you not see a difference here? are you that delusional to know the difference between right and wrong?

this is why I refuse to debate with you...plain and simply, you are a dummy!

I never loved Serbs but Croats are less civilizated , even in Romania is used Hungaryan language even if there live 1 from 10 Hungaryans !

Everything you say is wrong

1-2-3 SWASTIKA an ancient & sacred symbol not used today bc of recent history
See US Holocaust Museum: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007453

6 -Jasenovac
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449
See US Holocaust Museum parag 7: Croat authorities murdered between 320k - 340k ethnic Serbs of Croatia & Bosnia during Ustasha rule (In addition to 40k at Stara Gradiska)

4 Rlease from civil positions
5 Creating cultural sentiment
6 Numbers killed
7 Thank God my wife neither Serb nor Jew

See NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/11/world/tudjman-is-dead-croat-led-country-out-of-yugoslavia.html

When Croats began wholesale dismissals of Serbs from Civil Service jobs, Serbs began arming themselves

Tudjman published 1989's 505-page "Impasses of Historical Reality" where he questioned generally accepted numbers of WW II genocide by Germans & Ustase. He put Jews killed at 1million instead of 6 million -- and enraged Serbs & Jews by diminishing numbers killed in Croatia's Jasenovac, from more than 500k to 59k

Most historians agree at least 500k civilians died in Ustase camps

"A Jew is still a Jew. Even in camps they retained their bad characteristics: selfishness, perfidy, meanness, slyness and treachery"

In 1990, Tudjman declared Thank God, my wife is neither Serb nor Jew.

He coveted incorporation of most of Bosnia & Herzegovina into a Greater Croatia, as it was under Hitler

@njegos
Just because you call it an international organization it doesn't make it a reliable source of information.
Veritas and Savo Strbac are know to spread Greater Serbian propaganda.
At least find a non-biased source for your lies.
The ICTY said 44. A court whose authority both countries recognized.

@factman
@Factman
To answer your question of why they took up arms… obviously with the intent of preventing Croatia from leaving the former Yugoslavia and creation of a greater Serbia.
In fact the average Serb living in Croatia at the time may never had taken up arms if their politicians, instructed by Milošević didn’t start pumping them with lies.
It’s a well-known recipe… just read what Edward Ferguson, British Ambassador to BiH said, …
”I have been struck by just how much political energy in the RS is spent on worrying about imagined threats to its continued existence. Political speeches have little to say about the really serious problems facing ordinary people in Republika Srpska, and across BiH. Instead, a picture is painted of an RS beset by enemies, domestic or foreign. This is the politics of insecurity, not of hope. But this insecurity is at least excessive and, in my view, needless.”
Exactly the same happened in Croatia, the Serbian politicians pumped the Serbian people with a notion of them being threatened and they bought it, and started needlessly taking up arms.

@ Factman
Furthermore...quoting the New York Times from articles that were tainted by Yugoslav Embassy influence in 91 and 92 where Serbs had the freedom to paint their lies doesn't really seem credible.
What did the New York Times say after the ICTY ruling that found serbs were NOT deported from the Krajina region? Or that only 44 died?
I actually understand you in a way. It's not easy to admit that what you've been told most your life isn't true. But I'm sorry, Serbs lie a lot. And that's not my conclusion that from your own Dobrica Cosic who said in his book Deobe...

“We lie in order to deceive ourselves, to console others; we lie out of mercy, we lie out of shame, to encourage, to hide our misery, we lie because of honesty. We lie for freedom. The lie is a form of Serbian patriotism and confirmation of our inbred intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively.”
“The lie is a Serbian state interest.”
“The lie is in the very being of the Serb:”
“In this country every lie in the end becomes the truth.”
“Serbians have been saved by lies so many times in history…”

What can I say, I guess it's just tradition for you.

From Croatian Canadian: "I don't hate Serbs, but I hate those, like njegos, that aren't fair or humane but believe they are."

Awww, now you hurt my feelings CC. I'm tearing up. Let's see, you say that I am not humane and fair yet you have claimed Croat superiority over Serbs more than once on this forum, called Serbs backward, minimized Serbs & Jewish deaths in WWII. Do your words sound humane and fair? Maybe you should look in the mirror before making hypocritical statements. You're embarrassing yourself...again.

More from CC: "we are talking about people that lived through hell and shouldn't have to re-live history."

I agree. That's what Serbs in Krajina feared: living through the hell they, their parents ad grandparents lived through 50 years earlier when the last Independent State of Croatia tried to wipe them off the face of the earth. Why it is so hard for you to understand? Put yourself in a Serb's position whose family was butchered by Ustasha in WWII, then he gets fired from his job upon Tudjman's election for no other reason than that he is a Serb, Dinko Sakic (Jasenovac commander) is invited back to Croatia by Tudjman, streets are renamed after Ustasha war criminals, your new president makes the statement in a campaign speech that he is glad his wife is neither a Serb or a Jew. And you say Serbs should have embraced Croatia and assimilated. You viewpoint is so myopic and shallow it renders your arguments pathetic.

njegos...debating anything with you is really not even worth a debate, you are as delusional and one-sided as it gets...no chance of any type of relationship with people like you even though I believe there is a good chance of relationship with most Serbian people...even if we disagree on certain topics.

Nobody...and I mean NOBODY has ever beat the "PR Team" drum as loud as you have...BECAUSE its your myth and not a topic people would ever bring up. It really hits home the fact of just how delusional you are. Think about this for a second...you are saying Croatians hired a "PR Team" to create the notion that Croatia was attacked...when everybody all over the world saw it as it happened. This clearly demonstrates how mentally disturbed you are, it also clearly demonstrates that you are extreme, like one of those brainwashed jihadists that nobody can reason with.

In my life, I've argued with Serbian people (several years ago) but for the most part, the Serbs I know are not as mentally challenged as you are. Some are just as misinformed as you are, some are tired of the war discussions and most just want to move on.

I have avoided you like I avoid trying to get the flu, you're not worth any discussions. In life there are all types of people but your kind is the worse. look at how you respond to people...you tend to think you're teaching people, you act as if you are the professor and everyone else is dumber than you are...you're a fool!

From CC: "...NOBODY has ever beat the "PR Team" drum as loud as you have...BECAUSE its your myth and not a topic people would ever bring up."

A myth means it is not true. Are you saying that the Croat gov't. didn't hire US PR firms? This is a fact that cannot be disputed, yet you still try to. You say nobody brings it up? Books have been written about it.

From CC: "...you are saying Croatians hired a "PR Team" to create the notion that Croatia was attacked..."

Wrong! Please reprint when I ever said that. What I said was that PR firms were hired to create an image of Serbs that was to be equated with the Nazis. I quoted John Harff, an executive with Ruder Finn at the time when he said exactly that. Are you denying that an executive from the PR firm your gov't. hired didn't say that? It is easily researchale, which is more than I can say about your outrageous claims.

From CC: "In life there are all types of people but your kind is the worse."

Let's see. You have called Serbs backward, stated Croat dominance over Serbs & Jews and have minimized Serb & Jewish deaths during the darkest days of Croat history. No, my friend, your kind is the worst. You are a racist historical revisionist who runs away when challanged with facts. Considering your cowardly Ustasha bloodlines, this isn't surprising.

njegos, has anyone ever... in the news or elsewhere pointed out Serbs and Serbia (during the 90's) to be equivalent to the Nazi's? You are incredibly childish and also, mentally challenged...there is no other way to describe your irresponsible comments!

This is the first time I've ever hear anyone equate Serbs in the 90's to Nazi's...except possibly for the Srebrenica massacre!

when you and Ari Gold inflate and twist history, people respond with their inflations as well...its called banter. you and Ari are the least responsible individuals I've ever seen on this site while Peggy is a close second to the both of you.

when I see your comments repeated over and over and over, I begin to wonder if you forgot to take your meds...you have compulsive behavior and dementia...there is absolutely no doubt you need help!

Serbs on here and everywhere admit to their wrongdoings...its those like Milosevic, Karadzic, Seselj that are extreme and embarass the entire Serb population...just as you do.

seek help, take your medication and look for a hobbie...you should lay off politics...you no longer can separate truth from lies and exaggerations!

From CC: "you are saying we tried to portray you incorrectly and yet, your people did exactly what I commented on...they put innocent civilians in concentration camps and massacred towns and villages...what do you expect the media to report? nobody needs a PR Team to demonstrate the monstrous behaviors!"

Are you denying that Croats & Muslims didn't run camps, commit atrocities, kill civilians, etc? Your own Canadian General Lewis McKenzie has recounted Croat & Muslim atrocities on several occasions. What would be his motivation to say this if they weren't true? He was there, were you? Please answer. You keep repeating that you didn't need any PR firms. Then why did you hire not one, but several several?????? I guess the truth wasn't as one-sided as you would lead us to believe, right Ustasha Boy. Answer the question for once in your miserable life. It's a very simple question for your very simple mind.

From CC "who in their right mind thinks a PR Team is gonna do a better job of playing out facts...nobody needs more evidence, your crimes are some of the worse in history!"

Wrong again. The crimes of your father's and uncle's regime, the Ustasha were the worst in history. They even made their Nazi masters cringe at their bestiality. Such a rich family legacy you have. And this is the regime that you say you're proud of. That says it all right there.

CC, I know your brainwashed little mind doesn't allow you to comprehend crimes committed by your wonderful Croat countrymen, but I thought I'd show you what your Canadian countrymen had to say about Croatian committed atrocities in the Medak Pocket which was only one of countless ares where Croat war crimes took place.

General Jean Cot: "I have found no sign of human or animal life in the several villages we passed today. The destruction is total, systematic and deliberate." UNPROFOR Press Release, September 19, 1993, Zagreb.

Lt. Colonel Jim Kevin (according to Reuters): "UN high officers assessed Croatian soldiers had been ordered by highest command to tear down those villages. This could have been ordered by high ranking generals only."

Ivanka Rajcevic, survivor: "The Ustashi said 'This is a Serbian village, turn it into a slaughterhouse. Slaughter everybody!.'"

Dr. Zeljko Karan, specialist of forensic medicine examines mutilated bodies and writes a report. "Blood suffusions and contusions were caused by strokes of a dull mechanical tool. [The victims] were then thrust into a fire while still alive. Many had stab wounds... It is not necessary to comment how the imprisoned were treated... The UNPROFOR representatives were present at the identification process and forensic treatment, especially at the most illustrative cases."

I thought only Serbs did this kind of stuff. Are your own Canadian peacekeepers liars too?? Please comment Ustasha Boy.

you asked me: WHY DID CROATIA USE PR FIRMS?

communication...to advertise the information and ensure the public could see what the aggressors were doing.

you also mentioned Canadian General Lewis McKenzie ...you think I'm gullible to not realize what you are doing? you chose the one guy that sides with the Serbs over the millions that didn't!

also, GENERAL LEWIS MACKENZIE - PAID SERBIAN LOBBYIST AND OUTSPOKEN SREBRENICA GENOCIDE DENIER....the guy that has never seen Srebrenica?

In December - same year - the chief Bosnian military prosecutor in Sarajevo, Mustafa Bisic, formally charged Gen. Lewis MacKenzie with sexual misconduct against civilians while on duty in Bosnia, and requested that the UN revoke his displomatic immunity. MacKenzie was accused of raping several Bosnian women being held captive in a Serbian rape camp, as a "gift" from Serbian officials. The victims were later executed by Serbian soldiers, allegedly to 'erase evidence'.

so you're asking me to believe a rapist? that's a Serbian speciality...raping innocent people!

More International headlines: Former ambassador Bissett and retired general Mackenzie continue to shamelessly deny Bosnian genocide and the war of aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina!!!

you're a complete dork and low-life!

MacKenzie has had issues all over the world and is considered a disgrace in Canada! He was lucky to have immunity, otherwise he would have been inside a prison cell today!

CC: HaHaHa! I told you not to respond to me unless you have verifiable facts and what do you do, respond with NO facts and only worthless opinions, again.

Where to start? How about that McKenzie is a rapist. Let's see, Gotovina was convicted at the Hague and acquitted in a controversial 3-2 appeals decision. You say he's innocent because he wasn't convicted. But based on only an allegation from a Bosnian prosecutor, hardly an unbiased source, you say McKenzie's guilty of rape! Am I a rapist too because you don't agree with what I write?

McKenzie spoke up after international forensic experts determined Muslims had bombed their own people to gain international sympathy. Because of this he was accused of rape. The allegation was so outrageous it never amounted to anything and diminished Muslim credibility. And YOU believe it. Why isn't McKenzie in jail? PLEASE ANSWER.

Here's your answer to my PR question: "communication...to advertise the information and ensure the public could see what the aggressors were doing."

I thought that was the job of the media! James Harff of Ruder Finn disagrees with you. He was paid to create an image. You can't dispute his words, although you shamelessly try to.

You claim that McKenzie was a paid Serb lobbyist. Laughable! Prove your statement with researchable facts. Who paid McKenzie and how much?

Tell me you don't believe what you write. Nobody's that stupid! Provide facts.

so let's fast forward to today's date, MacKenzie is a shamed ex military guy that Canada rejects for his several controversies, Gotovina is free of all charges, Seselj, Karadzic and Milosevic all guilty....Croatia fought and won for their independence.

who won? who is guilty?

just because you think getting the media attention is somehow wrong or comes across as unfair...Croatia and BiH had an embargo they had to deal with while Serbs massacred and committed war crimes, hence the politicians in jail or rotting in hell!

"Nobody's that stupid! Provide facts"

the facts are that you are stupid, we won the war, you lost!

factman,

2 questions to you:

did Serbs/Serbia have any fault in the war from '91 - '95?

how did it start?

CC: Again, you avoid answering my questions. You make unsubstantiated statements that are just plain false like the Croat gov't. use of PR firms is a myth. Then you avoid any questions that challenge your position. This is the sign of a weak arguement. This is a pattern with you. You haven't answered any of factman's questions either. Let me know when you grow some balls and are ready to answer the repeated questions I have asked you. Then maybe you can get to factman's, but I doubt it. You'd rather sit anonymously behind your computer and spew your Ustasha taught vitriol.

Oh, and I'm sorry that you lost a cousin in the war, I too had a cousin in the war. Thankfully, he survived. If you're looking for someone to blame for your cousin's death, blame your hero Tudjman. He led the Croatian people to civil war and that's what you got. Bad things happen in wars on all sides.

From CC: "njegos, has anyone ever... in the news or elsewhere pointed out Serbs and Serbia (during the 90's) to be equivalent to the Nazi's?"

Here you go CC. Here are excerpts from an interview from Jacques Merlino of TV26 in France with James Harff of Ruder Finn:

"For 18 months, we have been working for the Republics of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as for the opposition in Kosovo... The first statement counts. The retractions have no effect..."

"Nobody understood what was happening in Yugoslavia...We won by targeting Jewish audience...Almost immediately there was a clear change of language in the press, with the use of words with high emotional content, such as “ethnic cleansing”, “concentration camps”, etc., which evoked images of Nazi Germany and the gas chambers of Auschwitz. The emotional charge was so powerful that nobody could go against it."

Marlino: But when you did all of this, you had no proof that what you said was true. You only had the article in “Newsday”!

Harff: "Our work is not to verify information...We are professionals. We had a job to do and we did it. We are not paid to be moral.."

Here it is in b;ack & white CC. But I'm sure you'll find a way to deny it. Your Croat gov't. spent millions to distort the truth and slant the western media. How much money did you contribute to the cause?

hahaha...so let me understand this. what you're saying is that there were no concentration camps in BiH...and that Vukovar wasn't wiped out...as in "cleansed"? Skabrnje wasn't cleansed...Serbs did not massacre Croatian civilians throughout Croatia...people just died of old age?

when you invade towns and villages, when you murder civilians to the point where there are no more people or livestock living, thats called a massacre.

when you contain people and starve them, beat them, murder them and humiliate them...its called a concentration camp...Omarska was one, Manjaca was another (I personally know at least 6 people that were in Manjaca), there were tons...but of course, you won't acknowledge this.

are you going to deny that Serbs had concentration camps in BiH and that they tried to cleanse Muslimane and Hrvati?

you are pathetic!

Again, you run away from the question. Here it is again for perhaps the 75th time: WHY DID CROATIA USE PR FIRMS?

First you said they didn't use them. Then when you were proven wrong, you maintained that they didn't need them. Why then did they use several and spend millions on them if they weren't needed? ANSWER PLEASE!!!! It seems your hero Franjo Tudjman felt they were necessary. The executive from Ruder Finn stated that they were not concerned with the truth, only creating the image. Did you miss that part Ustasha Boy? Selective reading again?

I've tired of proving you wrong with verifiable and researchable facts Ustasha Boy. A discussion with you is pointless. You refuse to answer questions and spew the same hate-filled remarks that have been spoon-fed to you by your Ustasha relatives.

You can continue to think ALL the crimes were committed by Serbs and the war was ALL the fault of the Serbs. That's your prehistoric opinion and that's all it is. As I said, I provided facts that can support my comments, you haven't. Don't worry, I'll let factman know you have no intention of answering his questions either. Good thing you're behind a computer somewhere in Canada. Had this been a face-to-face debate you would have been in tears. This has been too easy. LOL

ps - Please don't respond to any of my posts again if you don't have facts to back up your comments. Your opinions are worthless.

More from CC: " Seselj, Karadzic and Milosevic all guilty....Croatia fought and won for their independence."

HAHAHA! What planet do you live on? Seselj spent 11 years in custody at the Hague and they couldn't find him guilty of anything! Do you know something the rest of the world doesn't? Please provide the date and the exact charges Seselj was found guilty of. The world is dying to know. Karadzic's trial is still ongoing and Milosevic died while in custody before a verdict was ever rendered. BTW, your hero Tudjman also died awaiting his trial as well.

Regardless of what you or I or anyone else thinks of these men, they have not and were not found guilty in an international court of law as you have so incorrectly stated. Does accuracy mean anything to you? I have never come across someone who is so consistently wrong with everything he says. You are a comedy of errors. Each time you post something it outdoes your last one with inaccuracies. What will you write next? I can't wait. LOL

Oh, and BTW, Croatia didn't win anything, NATO did. Croats couldn't fight her way out of a paper bag.

From CC: "hahaha...so let me understand this. what you're saying is that there were no concentration camps in BiH..."

Please prove where I have ever said that. You claimed there were no PR firms used by the Croat gov't. whose objective was to portray Serbs as Nazis, and as usual, I proved you wrong. Now you shamelessly attribute comments to me that I never made. When you are proven wrong, you throw out false comments and attribute them to your opponent. You are the king of back peddling.

Every side ran camps (Croats, Muslims & Serbs). I have never denied that. What I pointed out to you, however, was that it was the Croats and Muslims who employed PR firms to the tune of millions of dollars to distort the truth and portray the Serbs as the only bad guys. If the truth was on your side and the Serbs were the overwhelming bad guys, why did you need to pay all that money to 'create an image' of the Serbs as Nazis?

Remember when you said no crimes were committed during Storm because no one was ever convicted? Yet many Serbs who were too old and sick to leave were found with their throats slit. I've posted comments from Canadian peacekeepers who took pictures of Croat atrocities. But because no one was prosecuted, no crimes occurred according to you. I know you've been poisoned by an Ustasha upbringing, but you are also the product of a Canadian schooling. It is astonishing to read your racist and revisionist comments in 2015. You are a dinosaur.

HAHAHA! I'm still laughing over your crazy allegation that Gen. Lewis McKenzie is a rapist! I thought Azir was the dumbest person on this forum, but you have taken the title away from him. Congratulations.

Tell me, are the other Canadian peacekeepers whom I referenced in a previous post who spoke out against Croatian atrocities in the Medak Pocket also rapists? Am I a rapist because you don't like what I write? Is Ari, factman and Peggy? PLEASE ANSWER.

You are clearly the product of a racist revisionist upbringing. You are a lost cause.

Come back with some facts. Your emotional diatribes as well as your opinions are worthless.

Who says McKenzie is a shamed military guy? You and the Bosniak prosecutor? HAHA! You said he was a rapist. You're great at making sweeping irresponsible statements with nothing to back them up. Where's the proof Ustasha Boy? I'm still waiting.

You also said he was a paid lobbyist for the Serbs. I asked you to prove it and guess what - YOU DIDN'T...again. More lies from you. How do you sleep at night? How many times have I proven you wrong already. I lost count, has it been 20, 30, maybe 40? You are a chump!

It's been fun bantering with you, but you're too easy. I'd say you have the intellect of a 3rd grader, but that would be an insult to 3rd graders everywhere.

This has nothing to do with Ustase or Nazi's. The fact of the matter is that Serb's who live there and who have lived there have not embraced Croatia or the Croatian culture while they often burn Croatian flags or utilize banners that state, Vukovar is Serbia...why would anyone allow that in their country?

The difference between Croats in Vojvodina vs Serbs in Vukovar is that the Croats don't live under the hope that Croatia will ever take over that region or town within that region while on the other hand, we've seen what Serbs have done in Vukovar and Krajina. We know Serbs are serving time in the Hague, In Croatia in Serbia and other parts of Europe because of the atrocities they've orchestrated and performed and for this reason, we just do not trust them...which is completely understandable.

I find it provocative that any Serb believe's we forgot what they did and that we are stupid enough to allow it to happen again. Croatia's policy for Croats within Serbia is to not comment or get involved while Serbia's policies for Serbs in Croatia is to constantly meddle into our affairs...too bad, soo sad...you reap what you sew!

I'm really tired of watching Serbs from all parts and from Vukovar discretely and not so discretely claim Vukovar is theirs...all these provocations and then you are surprised when Croatia decides they refuse to use your language...haha...assimilate or get lost!

There could be 0 Serbs left in Croatia and they would still have a inferiority complex and paranoia when it comes to Serbs. What you have to understand is that while Serbia has a long and storied history much of which has nothing to do with Croats, Croatia's entire existence revolves around their unhealthy obsessive hatred towards Serbia.

And to think the Karadjordjevich Dynasty gave them their first state. Yugoslavism is the single greatest detriment in Serbia's history. Dare I say more than the Ottoman Empire was.

The sad fact is that while Croatia is experiencing fever-pitch Nazism, many Serbs still believe in "brotherhood and unity" and even Vucic Ghandi talks about "reconciliation".

Un-repentent Nazi's to the end.

Serious inferiority complex.

jobe,

If French Quebec ever initiated, then bombarded and attempted to murder all living creatures in any one single Canadian town...you'd never see another French written piece anywhere...you are plain and simply too ignorant to see the forest from the trees!

2 things that must be never be forgotten..
(1) in occupied VUKOVAR in 1992-1998 irregulars lead by Seselj & Vucic ( SRS ) wiped out anything that was based on the Latin script. Every sign, every store was in Cirilica.

(2) Vucic quoted as saying ' For every Serb death 100 Bosniaks will perish' . and this man has the balls to question what is happening in today's Croatia....! Vucic I suggest you fix the poverty in Serbia and stop worrying about others.

It is time for Serbia to own up to its crimes. We massacred thousands of innocent people and that is a fact. It's no wonder they don't want our language.
Admitting to crimes we committed throughout the region while attempting to carve out a Greater Serbia would be our best move.
That way we could finally move on and concentrate on what's important.
A real man admits when he's wrong. It's time for Serbia to start acting like a real man instead of trying to win the propaganda war and playing the victim.
We all know the truth and we all know that Serbia was not the victim in any of the wars, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia or Kosovo.
Let's take a good look in the mirror.

I just can't understand the obsession in Serbia with what is happening in an another country. Croatia is an independent country, Serbia is another and yet still everyday the obsession in Serbia with what is going on in Croatia us remarkable.

Mind your own business, let the citizens of Croatia mind their own business and create their own future, life and country as they want.

Serbs should be putting more efforts in what is going on in Serbia, Serbian economics, education system, work places and so on.

The headline reads:
Croatian town's removal of Serbian Cyrillic "clear message"

I must admit that this headline surprised me. I didn't realize that the Serb people have made such progress.
Finally you recognize that it is a CROATIAN town.
At least it's a start. You still have a long way to go.

I don't really blame the ustasa. They only do what they are able to get away with. It is a direct result of a the demonisation policy of western media and governments of the past that allows this illegal and immature denial of serbian minority rights in Croatia today.
If only we could have the rights the Albanians had in Kosovo before they started provoking trouble. If only.

To me this is funny because even Serbs in Serbia don't care about Cyrillic. I read stories about intellectuals in Serbia saying Cyrillic is being forgotten and what not.

singing a song....BURNING A CROATIAN FLAG IN FRONT OF PALACE OF JUSTICE...nothing happens to him...what do you want me to say...even steven!?!?

Croatians in Vukovar have never received reparations from Serbs, Croatians in Vukovar have never received an acknowledgement that Serbia was the aggressor...you use the fact that we are part of the EU but you cannot forget, the people of Vukovar are living amongst some of those that walk freely and are criminals!

I do not condone anyone singing the songs...they are songs I sing, but I'm not a politician!

you people should self reflect and ask yourselves...what if Vukovar happened in Serbia?

In true Croat form, these unrelaible fascist-leaning liars have gone back on their word. They made the commitment to allow any ethnic group whose population constitutes 30% or more of a municipality, to use their own alphabet. The untrustworthy Croats agreed to this because it was a pre-condition to being accepted into the EU.

Reneging on their promise should come as no surprise though. They never really had any intentions of allowing Cyrillic to be used. Just as they backstabbed their former allies, the Muslims of B-H during the war.

The world is now seeing the true character of the EU's newest member.

I never loved Serbs but Croats are less civilizated , even in Romania is used Hungaryan language even if there live 1 from 10 Hungaryans !

Finally you recognize that it is a CROATIAN town.
(Truthlover, 18 August 2015 15:12)

If by CROATIAN town you mean poor, isolated, emptying of people, and full of inbred nationalists with a humongous inferiority complex, then yes. It is indeed a CROATIAN town.

PS:

You guys suck at basketball.

You also suck at Tennis.

You are only average at Soccer

You have never produced a great scientist.

Nor a great piece of literature.

You've never made an automobile.

Come to think of it, even your wine sucks.

One might ask what exactly have you achieved in these past 1200 years?

It took you 1180 years to even get a state.

You suffer from a serious inferiority complex.

PS: never forget that we use the same language (try as you may to differentiate it)

PSS: You flag is ugly too.

Loser.

Croatian inferiority complex: we are talking about a history-less nation that was born as a branch of the Serbian nation, meeting catholic religion and becoming "croatian".
There's not croatian heritage, as there's a serbian one. Their cities may be beautiful when they have been built by Italians (Venetians).
They have a pretty meaningless history, that become strongly connected to nazism in the last 80 years. Without having a soul, you find your soul in someone else. Pointless and useless nation, a bunch of nazis without any background.
And pointless nation in basketball too: "we are the number one", they were saying. After the "podiumgate" in Athens they have never been able to see podium, even with binocular. And they never will be.

From factman: "PS: never forget that we use the same language (try as you may to differentiate it)"

Factman, I too used to think Serbian and Croatian were the same language. However, the words 'trust, honor, character and integrity' do not exist in the Croatian vocabulary. Therefore, they must be different languages.

Jasenovac alone requires Serbs to have their own protected culture and identity in Croatia. These Croats calling for assimilation are no different from the Ustasha and need to be put into the ground.

hey canuck... hows that french thing going for you over there in arrogant canadistan? do not the french minority have the use of their own language, written and spoken? do they not get to use their alphabet (same alphabet with additional accents which do not exist whatsoever in english, nor the rest of canada). don't the anglo-canadians have a significant distrust and dislike of the special treatment the french minority have in canada?
so, while you lounge in your canadian high living standard, one where you openly accept and offer a duality of canadianism, an open and honest acceptance of two very distinct cultures and peoples, you suggest that croatia and its serbian minority specifically should not be allowed what it is that you offer to the rest of your country men and women in canada?
and don't pretend for one moment that the french/english history has any less blood or violence that the croat/serb history.
is it because you can't get passed some deep seeded hatred? or do you have a non-emotional reason to treat minorities like second-class citizens?

(Croatian Canadian, 17 August 2015 18:34)

Actually, it is EU regulation that says if a community makes up at least 1/3 of the population of a given municipality, there has to be street signs in their language available. Serbia has it for Hungarians, Albanians and has the Latin alphabet where Croats and Bosniaks live. And it is not even a member of the EU. Why is it so hard for EU member Croatia to act so civilized?

Between the swastika's to the tens of thousands that Ustasha Thompson draws in on a weekly basis, to this... can you deny that there is a clear sickness within the Croat national psyche that has not gone away from the very moment you opened your first concentration camp?

We can all play that game: Remove all the signs - the Latin script ones too.

Every pompous little fascist Croat thinks of himself as being an Austro-Hungarian aristocrat, whereas, in fact, he is a Slav, no different from the Serbs who he fondly remembers were slaughtered by Croats in ww2.

Brotherhood and unity? Croats were never brothers, just opportunistic.

Croatia is founded on dishonour.

Of course peace and love are much better than wars and hatred but in the circumstances when the US watches strictly so that no reconciliation is possible on the Balkans news that disappoints Serbs in fact is rather good for them. After 20 years of being demonized they must enjoy it when their local rivals stop to be human beings. Otherwise when the Croats remind the whole world of their Nazi past or the Bosniaks join the ISIL it mustn’t disappoint the Serbs. Same with the Shqiptars whose worldwide mafia and local nationalists will never let them be part of that is called “the civilized world”. So pragmatic Serbs must be happy if Haradinai and Thaci win the next elections in KIM and Oric comes to power in the ugly union in BIH or an Ustasha’s son of a bitch replaces their current American daughter of a bitch. On such a background Serbs will always look as morality etalon in the region.

Well... at least we kicked your asses.
(Truthlover, 18 August 2015 10:44)

If you count shooting at fleeing civilians in the 1990s, slaughtering innocent and unarmed civilians in the 1940s, and smashing signs that can hit back, then yes, you are the biggest ass kickers in Europe. It's amazing more people aren't impressed and enamored with you Slavic-speaking Aryan wannabes.

Yugoslavism is the single greatest detriment in Serbia's history.
(Ari Gold, 17 August 2015 17:11)

Yup... It's a shame it's too late. Serbia wanted Yugoslavia to subjugate that other Slav nations and satisfy Serbs' dreams of grandeur of greater Serbia, but ended up shooting itself in the foot! I hope it learned the lesson...

(Mr.X in Belgrade, 18 August 2015 08:54)

Europe's Nazi state on Serbia's borders are persecuting Serbs on a daily basis and being concerned with this mistreatment is an example of "obsession"? If you really are in Belgrade, you are most certainly just repeating what your NGO director tells you too. The NGO's in Belgrade are ALL about human rights, as long as those in question don't happen to be Serbs. They are fueled by millions of dollars from both the Serb state and the EU to spew auto-chauvinism. Of course that's even if you live in Belgrade at all.

(Sveti Sava, 18 August 2015 10:47)

You, there's no way you're from Serbia. It's a common trend on B92, use "we" to somehow validate your racist argument. Any time the fascist Croat regime strip Serbs of basic rights or the KLA organ traffickers attack civilian returnees, simply add "Greater Serbia" with "we", "us" etc. and that excuses treatment towards people that no other group in Europe has to endure.

The point both of you clowns try to make is liberties enjoyed by others should not be afforded to Serbs and everyone including Serbia should just look the other way while fascists continue with their decades-long policy of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

If all the municipalities have the same regulation regarding non-use of Cyrillic, why does the article focus on Vukovar, the one place that might be forgiven for bearing a large grudge? What about the other 22 offenders, what's their excuse and where are B92's attempts to get a quote from anyone involved so we can hear what they have to say? This is half an article and leaves the uninitiated at the mercy of those who, with the greatest will in the world, could not be described as impartial.

Free and open countries are not threatened by ethnic minorities using their script.

The US has it, so does Canada.

There is no obligation to assimilate in a free society. And this quote only shows your fascist under-pinning

Nor is it not against the law to not assimilate.

Inferiority complex and probably penis envy too.

Therefore your comment

Croatian trolls on this site really are something else. From historical revisionism to overt holocaust denial there's absolutely nothing positive that can be said about you, your sad country and your total lack of any morality. Spare us the platitudes from Canada a great country sadly infiltrated by keyboard fascists who found Croatia so wonderful,they left.

Well Slavonia should have never been given to Croatia in the first place. Croatia was on the losing side after WWI, yet somehow they gained Slavonia by united with the Serbs and Slovenes.
Slavonia wasn't an historical part of Croatia.
And the Serb history of Vukovar goes way way back for many hundreds of years.

The only way you'd see the "international community" react is if Serbia did something corresponding to reduce the ethnic Croat minority rights: then they'd be screaming about it.

Why Serbia wants to be in the EU which allows all this oppression against Serbs - and if Serbs think that joining the EU will enable Serbs to be able to return to any of their homes and property in the other ex-Yu areas, then they are fools who have not been paying attention and correctly interpreting the "international community's" moves and non-moves.

For how long is Serbian government going to take this abuse!!!What a surprise,removing,bilingual,signs,why don't Serbia, close all the borders with Croatian fascist,Nazi,,Puppet state of Croatia,build the wall and electric wire ,so we can rid off this evil nation once for all!!!!There is no peace with this Savages!!!!! They can all go to Hell,is this a member of EU!!??The hell with EU,too!!!!!!No peace!!!!

Well... at least we kicked your asses.
(Truthlover, 18 August 2015 10:44)

Who's we?
As Bill O'Reilly said the other night to one of his guests: "We! what is this 'we' I keep hearing? You got a mouse in your pocket?"
If you're trying to say "we" the Croats, then you're wishfully thinking, speaking, and celebrating.

We = "Howard McBane" aka NATO and your sorry little blood-thirsty Ustasha Cockroaches. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnk7RRA0pXs

So many of these comments are laughable and also very revealing. Ari and njegos are truly ill-minded individuals filled with hatred and such delusional propaganda, its pointless to try and discuss anything with them...I'm convinced Peggy is a man, it doesn't have an ounce of feminism in it.

The point of contention here, is the fact that Vukovar has removed cirilica...regardless of if the Mayor sang a questionable song or if Serbs think Croats are Fascists/Nazi's, thats irrelevant to us and we can go on and on about who burned a flag or who is the bigger aggressor, at the end of the day, we Croatians feel that Serbs attacked us, murdered our people in our towns and villages, you shelled our historical cities and there was much more...

The issue in this entire scenario is this... Serbia and Serbians have yet to accept any responsibility and...they want to assume this was equally everyone's fault...which is why your leaders would like to share a memorial day with the victims...Croats and Bosnians...we, on the other hand know that you were the aggressor, why share a common day with the people that attacked and murdered our people?

Cirilica isn't really a big deal...you know it and so do we. the problem here is that Serbs insist on having their rights and the people of Vukovar have yet to get their right of JUSTICE...so as long as Serbia behaves like this, Croats will always resent them.

the healing process starts once Serbia acknowledges and repairs their own faults!

truthlover: Your revisionism is shameful. Your attempt to minimize Nazi Croatian Ustasha crimes is appalling. Here's what German General Hermann Neubacher had to say about the number of Serbs butchered by your countrymen: "...When prominent Ustase leaders claimed that they slaughtered a million Serbs (including babies, children, women and old men), that is, in my opinion, a boastful exaggeration. On the basis of the reports submitted to me, I believe that the number of defensless victims slaughtered to be three-quarters of a million."

The Simon Wiesenthal Center, the foremost authority on Nazi crimes, lists similar numbers.

Now, I ask you truthlove, Should we believe this very credible German source who was aligned with your savage brethren and the other, renowned for hunting down Nazi war criminals, or you, an anonymous apologist for the Croatian cause? Please tell us your credentials and your educational and professional background. Until then, you're just another revisionist liar. Hit the road punk.

From Croatian Canadian: "This has nothing to do with Ustase or Nazi's."

When the Deputy Mayor and City Council President of Vukovar are seen on tape singing Ustasha songs, it has everything to do with Nazi's & Ustasha. Once again, you miss the point as you have so often in the past.

More from CC: "...why would anyone allow that in their country?"

For starters, you signed an agreement promising that you would. Your gov't. also promised to prosecute crimes against Serbs, repatriate Serb refugees, reinstate pensions, etc. All of which have been ignored after your entrance into the EU. Your word is worth nothing. Serbs have known this for centuries, now the rest of the world sees the true character, or lack thereof, of the Croat nation.

P.S. I see you're still obsessed with this Serbian website. Too funny.

The Croatians are Catholics and in the New World Order, Catholics can do anything they want, followed closely by their spiritual cousins, the Muslims.

Hey, jobe, here is a clue. The Canadian French are Catholic the Anglo French are -- mostly -- not Catholic.

If all the municipalities have the same regulation regarding non-use of Cyrillic, why does the article focus on Vukovar, the one place that might be forgiven for bearing a large grudge? What about the other 22 offenders, what's their excuse and where are B92's attempts to get a quote from anyone involved so we can hear what they have to say? This is half an article and leaves the uninitiated at the mercy of those who, with the greatest will in the world, could not be described as impartial.
(ned taylor, 17 August 2015 18:41)
====================================
There is always an excuse and you find it.
If Croatia could really play that and be excused from doing the right thing then why didn't they?

oh, my canadian friend

what is interesting is that some-odd 70 years ago croatians tried to kill every-single serb, yet in vojvodina the croatian-serbian citizens enjoy croatian as an officially recognized language with all the rights and privileges that come with it.
you seem to also have forgotten the october crisis, canada's extremely heavy-handed response and the 7 year lead up to the terrorism quebecois brought on to the rest of canada. yet, the english majority have grown past the past, much like the serb majority in vojvodina, and has accepted their troublesum-murderous minority as part of the package and treats them with full respect (perhaps not all deserved-but given nonetheless).

You might as well rename this website Nobodycares.com or 50yearsbehindtherestofEurope.com

Serbs were the aggressors and they lost. Not only did they lose, but they were humiliated militarily by the Croats (I guess they only know how to fight civilians) and their reputation destroyed in the international community. Right now Serbia is one of the few European nations in no man's land - not in the EU and not under Russian influence. You have no purpose, no vision and no future. You will never join the EU because you are useless and Russia will help you to the extent they did during the war. You are like the school kid that sits alone during lunch, that is, if that school kid was also a sadistic mass-murderer. Just accept your defeat, know your role, and maybe you can beg at the door of the EU for the breadcrumbs that your economy so desperately needs.

I've been reading through some of these comments and have noticed how much Serbian people are not just misinformed, they also are very paranoid.

yesterday I came across an article, it was written by Edward Ferguson, British Ambassador to BiH...and before any of you start claiming Brits are friends of Croats, please...gimme a darn break...that couldn't be further from the truth!

this is a snippet of what he said:

REPUBLIKA SRPSKA. IT’S HERE TO STAY. SO CAN WE MOVE ON NOW?
During my first year here, I have been struck by just how much political energy in the RS is spent on worrying about imagined threats to its continued existence. Political speeches have little to say about the really serious problems facing ordinary people in Republika Srpska, and across BiH, with a struggling economy, high unemployment and rampant corruption. Instead, a picture is painted of an RS beset by enemies, domestic or foreign. This is the politics of insecurity, not of hope. But this insecurity is at least excessive and, in my view, needless.

The reality is that there is no threat to the continued existence of the RS. Yes, there are occasional calls by Bosniaks, Croats or others for its abolition. But these are just as unacceptable as Serb attempts to undermine the State judicial institutions or to promote secession. Under Dayton, BiH is a country of two Entities and, with the UK and our partners as guarantors of the Peace Agreement, that’s how it will stay....

@ (skyrezo, 18 August 2015 04:57)

I agree completely. We should take up a collection to finance the fence. I'm sure you could get complete foreign funding, from Croatia.

@ (factman, 18 August 2015 03:48)

Are you suggesting you made an automobile. Don't tell me you think the Yugo is actually a car. Haha.

"One might ask what exactly have you achieved in these past 1200 years?"

Well... at least we kicked your asses.

factman...you've utilized several myths to support your argument, I'm not even sure where to begin?

I will quickly start by saying that it is pretty ignorant and also an uninformed comment for you to make when you say Croatia adopted an Ustasa anthem, an Ustasa flag, brought fear...and once again, you are clearly avoiding any responsibility from Serbia's and Serbian people's side...this is exactly why today, we just cannot see eye to eye.

The flag and anthem are far older than Ustastvo...and although a portion of those in WW11 were monsters, the majority did not sign up to murder innocent people...but I won't spend time trying to convince you.

on the other hand, Milosevic started Serb Nationalism, he also organized the Novi Sad demonstrations, he even blacked out this media B92 because people protested him, part of The Hague indictment was that starting in 1987, Milosevic "endorsed a Serbian nationalist agenda" and "exploited a growing wave of Serbian nationalism...this is all documented...Milosevic was a beast...Serbs followed him!

regarding you claim Serbs were scared and lost jobs...there's not enough space to discuss this but ask yourself...what ethnic group dominated the JNA? in Croatia, what minority held the most government jobs? why would a Serb be a mayor or chief of police in a Croatian town if it was more than 85% Croatian?

Serbs have always been the aggressors...tell me where the wars have been fought? in Serbia or in Croatia, BiH, Slovenia...???

factman...Za Dom...Spremni is very old and has been known throughout the whole of the Croatian history, from the times of Nikola Subic Zrinski (1556 – 1566), and as such it does not signify any so called “Ustashe attribute” with which it is most likely burdened.The Ustashas of WWII Croatia had adopted the salutation and it has thus been wickedly portrayed solely as a Nazi salutation. But not all Croatia was Ustashi run. The same stigma to Croatian history has throughout past two decades been put by some western media through the Croatian Currency “Kuna” and to the Croatian flag with red-white check-board, which also have roots in deep proud history, long before WWII.

This salutation was used in historical times including times of Nikola Subic Zrinski in battles against the Turks/Ottoman (1556 – 1566.) and hundreds of years later in times of Ban Josip Jelacic (1850’s) during times of Austrian Empire when Croatia wanted autonomy and harsh battles fought.

you said: "Now, lets just change a few words:

"Under the Treaty of Versailles, Yugoslavia is a country of 6 republics, and with international powers as guarantors of this treaty, that's how it will stay"

Milosevic was and is responsible for this mess, not Croatia. I explained some of his actions in my comment below...everything he did was well documented and many Serbs today agree that he did instigate, create Nationalism, made it clear to Croatia that his plan of a greater Serbia started in the late 80's.

Truthlover - Here's a quote from a Canadian officer who was there during Operation Storm. What was his motivation to say this if it wasn't true? And to date, no one has been prosecuted for these crimes.

According to the CBC, Canadian officers documented numerous Croat atrocities during Operation Storm and find it entirely baffling that not one person of those who committed vicious war crimes has been arrested and brought before the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

“Just amazing. You can see the holes in the back of the head,” said Capt. Gerry Carron, showing pictures he took to document the killings.

“We found people in wells,” he said. “There was an old lady we found head-first in a well. Why did they do that?”

I could go on and on. Please don't tell me that the Hague was unbaised. Several legal scholars have questioned the validity and fairness of a court that was funded by the NATO alligned countries, the same alliance that bombed the Serbs. Please, for the Hague to find Croats guilty of war crimes would equate to the US, Germany, Britain, et al to admit that they made a mistake during the wars of the 90s.

Interestingly, these same Croat allies didn't attend the celebrations for Storm. Seems that your friends are discovering your true colors.

From Croatian Canadian: "I don't hate Serbs, but I hate those, like njegos, that aren't fair or humane but believe they are."

Awww, now you hurt my feelings CC. I'm tearing up. Let's see, you say that I am not humane and fair yet you have claimed Croat superiority over Serbs more than once on this forum, called Serbs backward, minimized Serbs & Jewish deaths in WWII. Do your words sound humane and fair? Maybe you should look in the mirror before making hypocritical statements. You're embarrassing yourself...again.

More from CC: "we are talking about people that lived through hell and shouldn't have to re-live history."

I agree. That's what Serbs in Krajina feared: living through the hell they, their parents ad grandparents lived through 50 years earlier when the last Independent State of Croatia tried to wipe them off the face of the earth. Why it is so hard for you to understand? Put yourself in a Serb's position whose family was butchered by Ustasha in WWII, then he gets fired from his job upon Tudjman's election for no other reason than that he is a Serb, Dinko Sakic (Jasenovac commander) is invited back to Croatia by Tudjman, streets are renamed after Ustasha war criminals, your new president makes the statement in a campaign speech that he is glad his wife is neither a Serb or a Jew. And you say Serbs should have embraced Croatia and assimilated. You viewpoint is so myopic and shallow it renders your arguments pathetic.

They are in the EU now. It is EU law to have minority rights respected. They are also obligated to allow refugees to return and return their property.

If you count shooting at fleeing civilians in the 1990s, slaughtering innocent and unarmed civilians in the 1940s...
(Factchecker, 18 August 2015 21:07)

Oh please save your lies for someone else. The ICTY found that 44 people lost their lives during operation Storm. Pumping the numbers may seem like it's helping serbia play the victim, but everybody knows the truth including serbia.
Of those 44, 26 perpetrators were criminally prosecuted by the Croatian state. How many were killed in the twisted Krajina region before it finally saw freedom in August 95? How many of those murders were prosecuted by the self-proclaimed Krajina state? None!
You used murder and persecution for 5 years, driving everything non-serb out, and then when Croatia liberated the land you start screaming about being victims.
Not to mention that serbian general Novaković was in such a rush to leave that he ran over his own people with his tanks at Dvor.
Such a shame that serbia is creating new myths to feed off of.

@factman

"1. Resurrected the same flag as the Ustasha"

No he didn't, the flag is older than the Ustasha movement and there is no U on the Croatian flag today like there was in the Independant State of Croatia during ww2.

"2. Rehabilitated the Ustasha in general as a movement"

No he didn't. It's still illegal, their symbols are illegal and glorifying them is also against the law. Something Serbia should consider for the Chetnik movement.

"3. Resurrected the same anthem as the Ustasha"

The anthem dates back to well before WW2, in fact he introduced the original text. The Ustasha mentioned the river Drina in their version. Today Croatia does not mention the Drina in the national anthem.

"4. Began to release Serbs from civil positions without right of recourse."

Serbs that were attempting to undermine democracy and Croatia's right to secede from Yugoslavia under the instruction of Milosevic.

"5. Presided over a cultural sentiment that brought fear and pressure to bear on the ethnic Serb ethnic minority"

That was in fact done by the Serb community itself that refused to accept the fact that Croatia could break away from the former Yugoslavia. They were obviously worried that the Greater Serbia plan was going to suffer if this happened.

Same with the Shqiptars whose worldwide mafia and local nationalists will never let them be part of that is called “the civilized world”.
(rote, 18 August 2015 14:45)

Russian mafia is the nr. 1 in world...
Albanian never did something against the so called "civilized world", while the "civilized world" destroy our nation dear rote...
If you want to think that : Albanians, Croats, Bosnians, Slovens - are all " bad guys" while the serbs are "angels" according to you, continue like this and you and Russian will lose more credibility.

Serbia's allegations against Croatia:

472. "The Court concludes from the foregoing that it is unable to find that
there was any indiscriminate shelling of the Krajina towns
deliberately intended to cause civilian casualties. It would only be
in exceptional circumstances that it would depart from the findings
reached by the ICTY on an issue of this kind. Serbia has indeed drawn
the Court’s attention to the controversy aroused by the Appeals
Chamber’s Judgment. However, no evidence, whether prior or subsequent
to that Judgment, has been put before the Court which would
incontrovertibly show that the Croatian authorities deliberately
intended to shell the civilian areas of towns inhabited by Serbs. In
particular, no such intent is apparent from the Brioni Transcript. Nor
can such intent be regarded as incontrovertibly established on the
basis of the statements by persons having testified before the ICTY
Trial Chamber in the Gotovina case, and cited as witnesses by Serbia
in the present case."

also...please note what Milosevic said:

Milosevic: "Tamo je palo naređenje da svi izađu iz Krajine istog dana, čak bez stvorenog kontakta sa hrvatskom vojskom na najvećem delu fronta. Da smo istog tog dana napravili idiotsku glupost da im pomognemo, ko bi to stigao do Knina do večeri da im pomogne?! Pa, tamo ne bi moglo da se stigne od njihovih kolona kojima su zakrčili sve putove u bežaniji zajedno sa stanovništvom."

Serbs ran like rabbits...Milosevic knows that!

In the appeals case therefore, the only question was whether Judge Orie’s Chamber had properly concluded that Serbs had been ethnically cleansed from the four towns of Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac and Gracac,even though Judge Orie’s Chamber concluded that they had not been deported from any other part of the “Krajina.” The majority of the Appeals Chamber concluded that Serbs from these four towns were not expelled by Croatian forces.

The conclusions from these two ICTY judgments in the Gotovina case are undeniable: the Croatian leadership did not have any intent to murder or expel Croatian Serbs, and it did not intend to destroy and loot their property. It did not expel the Serb population. Concretely: the Croatian leadership did not have a criminal political policy towards the Serb minority in Croatia.

One of the goals of the establishment of the ICTY in 1993 was that a record of history of the events of the 1990s could be created by an independent, international body, freeing the people of southeast Europe from mythical histories created by elites. the findings: On the Serbian side was a criminal political agenda and resulted in deaths of tens of thousands Croatia/Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the expulsion of hundreds of thousands. On the Croatian side: no criminal plan directed at the Serbian minority, although crimes were committed on the Croatian side as well. Croatia launched a legitimate military operation which it was entitled to do under international law.

More gems for Historical Revisionists

All of this done BEFORE Serbs went to arms (not after)

One purpose of Journalism is to document what happens so revisionism cannot take place and can be called out.


According to Chicago Tribune
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-02-15/news/9201150025_1_serbs-croatian-president-franjo-tudjman-peacekeepers-arrival

Tudjman has been problematic for some time and seemed to go out of their way to alienate the territory`s 600,000 Serbs.

They changed the constitution to render Serbs virtual non-citizens, for example, and banned the Cyrillic alphabet, used by Serbs but not Croats.

To many Serbs, these new manifestations of Croatian nationalism were disturbingly reminiscent of Nazi-inspired atrocities of the 1940s, when Croatia was an Axis puppet state and hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews and Gypsies were slaughtered.

Many Serbs fear that attitudes of that period have yet to be expunged from Croatian society and the government in Zagreb.

Tudjman`s repugnant comments (``Thank god my wife is neither a Serb nor a Jew”).....

Everything you say is wrong

1-2-3 SWASTIKA an ancient & sacred symbol not used today bc of recent history
See US Holocaust Museum: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007453

6 -Jasenovac
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449
See US Holocaust Museum parag 7: Croat authorities murdered between 320k - 340k ethnic Serbs of Croatia & Bosnia during Ustasha rule (In addition to 40k at Stara Gradiska)

4 Rlease from civil positions
5 Creating cultural sentiment
6 Numbers killed
7 Thank God my wife neither Serb nor Jew

See NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/11/world/tudjman-is-dead-croat-led-country-out-of-yugoslavia.html

When Croats began wholesale dismissals of Serbs from Civil Service jobs, Serbs began arming themselves

Tudjman published 1989's 505-page "Impasses of Historical Reality" where he questioned generally accepted numbers of WW II genocide by Germans & Ustase. He put Jews killed at 1million instead of 6 million -- and enraged Serbs & Jews by diminishing numbers killed in Croatia's Jasenovac, from more than 500k to 59k

Most historians agree at least 500k civilians died in Ustase camps

"A Jew is still a Jew. Even in camps they retained their bad characteristics: selfishness, perfidy, meanness, slyness and treachery"

In 1990, Tudjman declared Thank God, my wife is neither Serb nor Jew.

He coveted incorporation of most of Bosnia & Herzegovina into a Greater Croatia, as it was under Hitler

@factman

It never ceases to amaze me how much serbs can lie.
Where did you see the swastika rehabilitated?
Do you just make things up and then accuse people of them?
You people really need to stop lying to yourselves, that's the main thing here. The rest of the world is obviously not blinking to your claims (and only your claims) that Croatia is a revival of a Nazi state.
Forget about SANU II. Start working for yourselves. Playing the victim just in an attempt to equate guilt in a war that you lost doesn't help anyone. Least of all yourselves.
It's as if you think you'll run into the UN assembly chamber and scream "NAZI !!!" while pointing a finger at Croatia and suddenly every other country will take your side. Either that or you think that claiming Croatia is a revived Nazi state will cover up all the atrocities serbs committed in Croatia during the war.
You people are pathetic. It's really a shame. You have so much potential but you just keep digging the hole under yourselves deeper and deeper.
Slipping back into wartime rhetoric only digs the hole deeper.

You seem to be a historical revisionist and a holocaust denier.

The entire agenda of you guys is to pin all blame ror start of the Civil Wars on Serbia, but the NY yi es has a more nuanced view of the matter.

One purpose of journalism is that it mainatains a historical record of what happened each day in history.

The items below and in my prior posts are all facts and they clearly show a policy and strategy to force an outcome for indepenedence that threatened Serbs who only 50 years before were to be "33% exterminated; 33% converted; 33% exiled"

You however have only propvided propaganda and historical revisionism or you need to go back to school

Here are some more gems from perhaps this most embarrasing obituary at the NY Times that I have read in quite some time.

See NY Times Dec 11, 1992 - Tudjman is Dead; Led Country Out of Yugoslavia

Contributed heavily to the collapse of the Yugoslav Federation of and the defeat of the whole concept of South Slav brotherhood

Accomplished his goal of driving ethnic Serbs from what he viewed as purely Croatian land

"A Jew is still a Jew. Even in camps they retained their bad characteristics: selfishness, perfidy, meanness, slyness and treachery"

In 1967, he signed petition demanding the linguistic separation of Serbo-Croatian language, which had also been a project of the Ustase.

Heavily financed by members of the Croatian diaspora, especially by remnants of the Ustase movement

Truthlover - I'm not sure where you're getting your census data, but if you're relying on Tito-era communist-run Yugoslavia's numbers you're more naieve than I thought. Tito, a Croat himself, did everything he could to cover up the crimes of the Ustasha to promote his Brotherhood & Unity ideology. It was taboo to speak of crimes committed against Serbs post WWII. It is a well know fact that Tito supressed Ustasha crimes.

Regarding your revisionism of Serbs killed during Storm, the international organization of Veritas puts the number of Serbs killed at 1,853, 1,202 of which were civilians and 75% of them over the age of 60. Among those killed were 545 women, again most over 60 years of age.

And there were many Serbs who were too old and / or too sick to leave. In the aftermath of Storm, many were found with their throats slit.

This is what you and your proud countrymen celebrate as the greatest military victory in Croatia's history. Croatia, with the help of the US and the NATO alliance, outnumbered the Serbs 7:1. I guess when you've spent over 900 years as vassals of the A-H Empire, butchering civilians is considered a military victory to you guys.

@fatman

So much effort to portray Croats as Nazis.
Let's talk about what the serbs did in their self proclaimed krajina region between 91-95.
Interesting how this little part of recent history get's avoided by serbs so often.
They concentrate on a 70 year old history then skip 91-95 and go right to 95 and whine how they were expelled.
When in reality their leaders lead them out in an organized manner.
Expect for those poor civilians that serb general Mile Novaković ran over with his tanks in Dvor because he was in such a rush to get away.
There's a war crime serbia should investigate. Half of the equation is acceptable: serbs are the victims. Sorry if the bloodthirsty Nazi Croats aren't to blame for that one.

This reeks of human rights violations, prejudice and discrimination.

From Croatian Canadian: "The issue in this entire scenario is this... Serbia and Serbians have yet to accept any responsibility and...they want to assume this was equally everyone's fault..."

Wrong again Ustasha Boy. The issue here is that although Croatia promised to respect their Serb minority so that their EU masters would accept them into their club, they never really had any intention of living up to their commitments. As soon as Croatia entered the EU there was a drastic increase in Croats embracing their fascist Ustasha past culminating with the election of Kolinda who is quickly becoming the joke of Europe. Repatriation of Serb refugees, reinstatement of pensions, prosecuting those who committed crimes against Serbs all have fallen by the wayside. And you say Serbs should just shut up and assimilate.

More from our Ustasha-taught friend: "the healing process starts once Serbia acknowledges and repairs their own faults!"

Can you really say that with a straight face? On this forum you have stated Croat superiority over Serbs, degraded Jews, minimized the number of Jews and Serbs killed in WWII and stated your pride in the Ustasha regime. Tell me, when do you start acknowledging the faults of your Ustasha relatives and countrymen. As much as you would like to forget that ugly chapter in history, Serb never will.

Croatia's allegations against Serbia:

426. "The Court addresses the findings of the ICTY. It notes that, according to the latter, the political objective being pursued by the leadership of the Serb Autonomous Region (SAO) of Krajina and then the RSK, and shared with the leaderships in Serbia and in the Republika Srpska in Bosnia and Herzegovina, was to unite Serb areas in Croatia and in Bosnia and Herzegovina with Serbia in order to establish a unified territory, and to establish an ethnically Serb territory through the displacement of the Croat and other non-Serb population through a campaign of persecutions. The Court further notes that, according to the conclusions of the ICTY, the acts that constitute the actus reus of genocide within the meaning of Article II (a) and (b) of the Convention were not committed with intent to destroy the Croats, BUT rather with that of forcing them to leave the regions concerned so that an ethnically homogeneous Serb State could be created. The Court agrees with this conclusion."

duhhhhh....we all know what you people just do not care to admit!

the dream of velika Srbija is dead!

revealing!!! Serbs are satisfied they didn't get a judgement of genocide against them...although its exactly what happened BUT when you read further, an international court saw that Serbs were forcing them (Croats) to leave the regions concerned so that an ethnically homogeneous Serb State could be created. The Court agrees with this conclusion."

On 4 and 5 August, Croatia commemorated its own victory over another criminal politics: the liberation of one-third of Croatian territory from the so-called “Republika Srpska Krajina,” which the Hague Tribunal in the case of Milan Martic has already declared beyond reasonable doubt was a Joint Criminal Enterprise on Croatian territory. According to the tribunal’s judgment, the RSK was a criminal enterprise controlled from Belgrade which had as its purpose the creation of an ethnically-pure greater Serbia through the persecution and deportation of all non-Serbs from occupied Croatian territories. The International Court of Justice confirmed this conclusion in its judgment in the Croatia v. Serbia genocide case.

The Hague Tribunal has concluded that there was no criminal intent on the part of the Croatian leadership towards the Croatian Serbs. Even in the first instance trial judgment in which General Gotovina was falsely convicted, Judge Orie’s Trial Chamber unanimously concluded that President Tudjman and the Croatian leadership had no intention to allow Serbs to be murdered, or their homes to be destroyed or property stolen. This is now the unanimous conclusion of every judge at the ICTY, both at the trial and appeal levels. Although Judge Orie’s Trial Chamber (falsely) concluded that Serbs had been ethnically cleansed from Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac and Gracac, it concluded that Serbs had not been ethnically cleansed from any other part of the “Krajina.”

@ njegos

Just look up the numbers in the last census taken before WW2 and the first taken after WW2. If so many were killed why is it that the numbers don't add up. Seems to me that somebody has been pumping for years to make it seem more atrocious.
I don't condone the killing of a single person, but I also refuse to support false truths.
You can call it revisionism, perhaps a revision of lies that have been pumped up for more than 50 years is necessary.
You're trying to do the same with operation Storm. Claiming that Croatia killed 600 (or is it already 6,000 now?). Claiming that Croatia expelled so many. They all left on their own accord, refusing to accept Croatia's internationally recognized borders. Leaving under threat of being killed by their own people if they chose to stay.

@njegos
Just because you call it an international organization it doesn't make it a reliable source of information.
Veritas and Savo Strbac are know to spread Greater Serbian propaganda.
At least find a non-biased source for your lies.
The ICTY said 44. A court whose authority both countries recognized.

Croatian Canadian:

In your prior post to me you said I based my post on "myths"

I have provided examples form the NY Times that show it is not myth.

Here is one more: Fascists Reborn as Croatia's Founding Fathers

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/04/12/world/fascists-reborn-as-croatia-s-founding-fathers.html

##

Regarding your post that Serbs are paranoid about RS, the ambassador says these words:

"Under Dayton BiH is a country of two entities, and with the UK and our partners as guarantors of the peace agreement, that's how it will stay"


Now, lets just change a few words:

"Under the Treaty of Versailles, Yugoslavia is a country of 6 republics, and with international powers as guarantors of this treaty, that's how it will stay"

##

Dayton is threatened each day because Bosnia cannot succeed as an economic entity under the current makeup - hence the desire to federalize

You seem to be a historical revisionist and a holocaust denier.

The entire agenda of you guys is to pin all blame ror start of the Civil Wars on Serbia, but the NY yi es has a more nuanced view of the matter.

One purpose of journalism is that it mainatains a historical record of what happened each day in history.

The items below and in my prior posts are all facts and they clearly show a policy and strategy to force an outcome for indepenedence that threatened Serbs who only 50 years before were to be "33% exterminated; 33% converted; 33% exiled"

You however have only propvided propaganda and historical revisionism or you need to go back to school

Here are some more gems from perhaps this most embarrasing obituary at the NY Times that I have read in quite some time.

See NY Times Dec 11, 1992 - Tudjman is Dead; Led Country Out of Yugoslavia

Contributed heavily to the collapse of the Yugoslav Federation of and the defeat of the whole concept of South Slav brotherhood

Accomplished his goal of driving ethnic Serbs from what he viewed as purely Croatian land

"A Jew is still a Jew. Even in camps they retained their bad characteristics: selfishness, perfidy, meanness, slyness and treachery"

In 1967, he signed petition demanding the linguistic separation of Serbo-Croatian language, which had also been a project of the Ustase.

Heavily financed by members of the Croatian diaspora, especially by remnants of the Ustase movement

@factman
@Factman
To answer your question of why they took up arms… obviously with the intent of preventing Croatia from leaving the former Yugoslavia and creation of a greater Serbia.
In fact the average Serb living in Croatia at the time may never had taken up arms if their politicians, instructed by Milošević didn’t start pumping them with lies.
It’s a well-known recipe… just read what Edward Ferguson, British Ambassador to BiH said, …
”I have been struck by just how much political energy in the RS is spent on worrying about imagined threats to its continued existence. Political speeches have little to say about the really serious problems facing ordinary people in Republika Srpska, and across BiH. Instead, a picture is painted of an RS beset by enemies, domestic or foreign. This is the politics of insecurity, not of hope. But this insecurity is at least excessive and, in my view, needless.”
Exactly the same happened in Croatia, the Serbian politicians pumped the Serbian people with a notion of them being threatened and they bought it, and started needlessly taking up arms.

@ Factman
Furthermore...quoting the New York Times from articles that were tainted by Yugoslav Embassy influence in 91 and 92 where Serbs had the freedom to paint their lies doesn't really seem credible.
What did the New York Times say after the ICTY ruling that found serbs were NOT deported from the Krajina region? Or that only 44 died?
I actually understand you in a way. It's not easy to admit that what you've been told most your life isn't true. But I'm sorry, Serbs lie a lot. And that's not my conclusion that from your own Dobrica Cosic who said in his book Deobe...

“We lie in order to deceive ourselves, to console others; we lie out of mercy, we lie out of shame, to encourage, to hide our misery, we lie because of honesty. We lie for freedom. The lie is a form of Serbian patriotism and confirmation of our inbred intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively.”
“The lie is a Serbian state interest.”
“The lie is in the very being of the Serb:”
“In this country every lie in the end becomes the truth.”
“Serbians have been saved by lies so many times in history…”

What can I say, I guess it's just tradition for you.

factman, regarding the NY Times article.

an article is most often written by a person that has an opinion, we see it everyday. does this make the article factual or just an opinion? I can present you with tons of articles from an anti Serbian perspective, does this make it true?

the reason I used direct quotes from the ICTY is because those quotes are the most accurate, whether we agree or not, the investigations performed are neither Serbian nor Croatian...they don't include your spin or mine, they have no skin in this.

you quoted "kill Serbs", are you going to say you've never heard Serbs say "kill Hrvati"? come on man, this is elementary...tell me you've never seen the videos of Serbs singing "Bit će mesa, klat ćemo Hrvate"!?!? tell me you've never seen Serbs burning Croatian flags during a soccer game or in front of a government building in Beograd...there are ignorant people everywhere!

"Why did they arm themselves?" - this is really quite simple. there is absolutely no question that Serbs and Serbia were aggressors and this war was caused by them, its a true finding in the case at the Hague, end of story.

njegos likes to use the "illegal" theory, that Croatia "broke International law" while he forgets that the Serbs claimed Krajina..."illegally" and they were never recognized. also, njegos goes on and on about PR Firms...and yet, video footage and factual documentaries are there for him and he believes Hollywood made those...Cosic was right!

when I look through these comments, its obvious why there is hatred and wars. neither of us, Croats or Serbs will back off on what we believe to be true. Croatians certainly feel and believe we were attacked and devastated, Serbs feel and believe we started this...one side (Serbia) had the luxury of weapons, the other (Croatia) used whatever they could get their hands on which was for the majority of the war...far less sophisticated!

people didn't just get killed, many were tortured, mutilated, raped and towns weren't just overtaken...many were burned to the ground...ask yourself, where did this happen? who was left to deal with the atrocities and aftermath?

we will never forget what happened from 1991-1995, I lost a cousin defending Vukovar. in many cases, justice was not served to the families of Vukovar. several criminals, killers, aggressors that murdered innocent people, walk the streets of Vukovar today. Many that left, still claim residency although they live elsewhere...cirilica is not above justice, justice has to prevail in order for people to move on.

I don't hate Serbs, but I hate those, like njegos, that aren't fair or humane but believe they are. we are talking about people that lived through hell and shouldn't have to re-live history. I doubt Russia, Serbia, USA or any other country would accept cirilica after all what happened.

I saw an example the other day, Brownsville, TX 90% Mexican and yet everything is written in English!

From Croatian Canadian: "njegos...say something new and factual for once..."

I challenge you to prove anything that I have said was not true. In the past when I've asked you questions and challenged you on topics, you've run away and disappeared for awhile because you could never support anything you've ever said. Will you run away again, or will you post Milosevic's comments for the 75th time? Talk about being predictable.

More from CC: "...I can't make it through a paragraph of what you write...same crap..."

Seems you make it through all of what I write. Why else would you be responding?

"....even the Serbs on here don't respect you!"

Aww, there you go hurting my feelings again. After you take a course in effective debating, I suggest you enroll in a good sensitivity training class.

From CC: "...NOBODY has ever beat the "PR Team" drum as loud as you have...BECAUSE its your myth and not a topic people would ever bring up."

A myth means it is not true. Are you saying that the Croat gov't. didn't hire US PR firms? This is a fact that cannot be disputed, yet you still try to. You say nobody brings it up? Books have been written about it.

From CC: "...you are saying Croatians hired a "PR Team" to create the notion that Croatia was attacked..."

Wrong! Please reprint when I ever said that. What I said was that PR firms were hired to create an image of Serbs that was to be equated with the Nazis. I quoted John Harff, an executive with Ruder Finn at the time when he said exactly that. Are you denying that an executive from the PR firm your gov't. hired didn't say that? It is easily researchale, which is more than I can say about your outrageous claims.

From CC: "In life there are all types of people but your kind is the worse."

Let's see. You have called Serbs backward, stated Croat dominance over Serbs & Jews and have minimized Serb & Jewish deaths during the darkest days of Croat history. No, my friend, your kind is the worst. You are a racist historical revisionist who runs away when challanged with facts. Considering your cowardly Ustasha bloodlines, this isn't surprising.

From CC: "hahaha...so let me understand this. what you're saying is that there were no concentration camps in BiH..."

Please prove where I have ever said that. You claimed there were no PR firms used by the Croat gov't. whose objective was to portray Serbs as Nazis, and as usual, I proved you wrong. Now you shamelessly attribute comments to me that I never made. When you are proven wrong, you throw out false comments and attribute them to your opponent. You are the king of back peddling.

Every side ran camps (Croats, Muslims & Serbs). I have never denied that. What I pointed out to you, however, was that it was the Croats and Muslims who employed PR firms to the tune of millions of dollars to distort the truth and portray the Serbs as the only bad guys. If the truth was on your side and the Serbs were the overwhelming bad guys, why did you need to pay all that money to 'create an image' of the Serbs as Nazis?

Remember when you said no crimes were committed during Storm because no one was ever convicted? Yet many Serbs who were too old and sick to leave were found with their throats slit. I've posted comments from Canadian peacekeepers who took pictures of Croat atrocities. But because no one was prosecuted, no crimes occurred according to you. I know you've been poisoned by an Ustasha upbringing, but you are also the product of a Canadian schooling. It is astonishing to read your racist and revisionist comments in 2015. You are a dinosaur.

More from CC: " Seselj, Karadzic and Milosevic all guilty....Croatia fought and won for their independence."

HAHAHA! What planet do you live on? Seselj spent 11 years in custody at the Hague and they couldn't find him guilty of anything! Do you know something the rest of the world doesn't? Please provide the date and the exact charges Seselj was found guilty of. The world is dying to know. Karadzic's trial is still ongoing and Milosevic died while in custody before a verdict was ever rendered. BTW, your hero Tudjman also died awaiting his trial as well.

Regardless of what you or I or anyone else thinks of these men, they have not and were not found guilty in an international court of law as you have so incorrectly stated. Does accuracy mean anything to you? I have never come across someone who is so consistently wrong with everything he says. You are a comedy of errors. Each time you post something it outdoes your last one with inaccuracies. What will you write next? I can't wait. LOL

Oh, and BTW, Croatia didn't win anything, NATO did. Croats couldn't fight her way out of a paper bag.

Y'all seen them two ugly Nazi worshipers with black ties? I like to hogtie'm with them black ties and ship'em to Bubba's kinfolk in Arkansas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj4LnfkdJDM

P.S. Y'all Nazis are as passe as Hillary Clinton!

Croatian Canadian,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

You might ask yourself what prompted those Krajina/ Knin Serbs to gather arms to defend themselves?

You and others have painted a picture of armed Serbs rampaging for more territory.

However, you forget some inconvenient truths which pre-dated that call to arms.

Instead of calming an ethnic minority who only 50 years before was sent to Concentration camps not far from there, your President:

1. Resurrected the same flag as the Ustasha
2. Rehabilitated the Ustasha in general as a movement
3. Resurrected the same anthem as the Ustasha
4. Began to release Serbs from civil positions without right of recourse.
5. Presided over a cultural sentiment that brought fear and pressure to bear on the ethnic Serb ethnic minority
6. Wrote literature stating that Jasenovac did not happen or minimized it away
7. Publicly wrote that he thanked God his wife was neither a Jew nor a Serb

etc,etc,etc

The first thing he should have done was welcome his ethnic minorities and make them feel safe, but he did the opposite.

No Serb in his right mind will just sit there and wait for 1942 to repeat itself, especially since many had witnessed or even survived WW2 in those same killing fields.

@Factman
Completely contaminated facts.
The Chicago Tribune?
Chicago is the American city with the largest Serb community. How are we to know that the Tribune is not biased? Or that the author of the article is not Serbian?
Not a very reliable source.

Isn't Chicago where Rod Blagojevich is from?
You know the American-Serb politician that was governor of Illinois and tried to sell Obama's vacant seat in the senate and got impeached and sentenced to 12 years in prison?
I believe his Federal Bureau of Prisons number is 40892-424.

You are not only seem to be a historical revisionist, but also a holocaust denier

The. entir agenda is to make it seem Serbs began the Civil War, but it appears the NYT has a more nuanced view of the matter

Here are some more gems from perhaps this most embarrasing obituary.

See NY Times Dec 11, 1992 - Tudjman is Dead; Led Country Out of Yugoslavia

Contributed heavily to the collapse of the Yugoslav Federation of and the defeat of the whole concept of South Slav brotherhood

Accomplished his goal of driving ethnic Serbs from what he viewed as purely Croatian land

In 1967, he signed petition demanding the linguistic separation of Serbo-Croatian language, which had also been a project of the Ustase.

Heavily financed by members of the Croatian diaspora, especially by remnants of the Ustase movement

CC,

it appears you are not reading my posts (10-12 posts down) which were written to Truthlover or you are ignoring them

In those posts, i addressed both your main issues

Re: Kuna, checkerboard, Za dom spremni, etc...... I provided an example of how the Swastika is an ancient and sacred symbol to many peoples. but due to its misuse, it can no longer be used. Several generations would need to pass until it could be re-used or rehabilitated. but Croats continue to use their "synonyms" for Swastika. You ignore comment on this thesis

Next, you paint a benign picture of your symbols. But the "spirit" of its use is not benign as you paint it. It is aggressive, appealing to base human instincts. And many times it is followed by: "Kill Serbs." The most recent link from NY Times illustrates this well. So you seem to be disingenuous or sheltered

Additionally, you and Truthlover have yet to respond to various NY Times articles and US Holocaust Museum pages.

Instead, you state your thesis: Serbs were agressors. And then provided excerpts from Milosevic's trial to support (even though this was not my original question to you)

My thesis asked a deeper question: Why did they arm themselves?

I stated my case and provided numerous excerpts to support. Those articles provide a historical record that is hard to refute.

i responded to your posts. You choose to ignore mine

We have nothing more to talk about

You peddle myth

Hey Truthlover - If Serbs are such liars, why then did the Croat gov't. spend millions of dollars to US PR firms to influence the western media? John Harff, a high ranking executive from Ruder Finn stated that their objective was to create an image of the Serbs to equate them with the Nazis. If the truth was on your side, why the need to 'create images' and slant the truth. I suggest you pick up the book, Media Cleansing by Peter Brock, an award-winning journalist with the NY Times. Then you will see who employed propaganda to win the war of lies. And believe me it wasn't the Serbs. But then again, you guys have been trying to cleanse your image since before WWII when you were the real Nazis. No surprise.