There is nothing Albanian-built that is worthy of UNESCO. The most beautiful, cultural shrines are all Serbian. There are perhaps some Turkish-built mosques - but even they were often built from destroyed Serbian churches and monasteries and are therefore a symbol of theft.
(ida, 29 July 2015 21:14)
For those that are ignorant about what UNESCO stands for they tend to equalize its function with churches or religion. Google what the name means.
Second point. Serbia stole ancient artifacts from Kosova,and Kosova's museums. Pre-Serb arrival artifacts. That is part of the cultural heritage. Hopefully wouldn't happen if UNESCO got involved in it.
Third- When did you get your licence that determines what deserves UNESCO protection? Because if it's as simple as voicing some personal opinion then one could easily feel that there's nothing Serbia built that requires UNESCO protection. Why? Simply because someone feels like it, the same way you feel like it, because of course you have no authority in the field. You just like to talk and take your own opinions for facts.
There is nothing Albanian-built that is worthy of UNESCO. The most beautiful, cultural shrines are all Serbian. There are perhaps some Turkish-built mosques - but even they were often built from destroyed Serbian churches and monasteries and are therefore a symbol of theft.
There is no need for personal attack by resorting to "you and yours." This is simply a civil discussion of differring viewpoints where each side is supposed to make the strongest case it possibly can in an intellctual wxamination of the issue. Is that not the primary purpose of these forums? And that the secondary purpose be the establishment of communication between two peoples who have strained relations?
A few additions and then I will no longer write on this subject matter.
First, you overlook that the main UNESCO sites are curently being protected by foreign military because their safety is threatened. This seems like an Eugene Ionesco absurdist comedy.
Finally, there seems to be a continuing tendency to use the actions of others to justify the actions of self. It is Pristina's record which is under question in this application to UNESCO. The application is asking that Pristina administer the cultural heritage of Kosovo. That is what is being discussed.
Concerning your final comment, yes, it seems that Pristina, in fact, has no interest to protect the world's cultural heritage, but is using this as a vehicle to gain membership to another international organization. This creates the very dynamic/ response in the other party that you criticize in your post.
And finally, the matter at hand is the fitness of Pristina to administer the "world's heritage." This debate has nothing to do with Serbia.
-- Sure it does.
Why does Serbia find itself in this predicament? I'm an atheist but let's play devil's advocate for a second. How is Serbia's track record with the cultural and religious institutions of Albanians in Kosova? Plenty of burned and destroyed buildings of non-orthodox denomination. It has paid 0 cents for the rebuilding of what it destroyed during the war. At very least Kosova's government has payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to rebuild. Yet Serbia even with this poor track record is in UNESCO. So based on this it seems to me that a poor track record doesn't seem to be a condition for membership either.
(factman, 29 July 2015 03:32)
Ok so you say that it has been 16 years since the war, it has also been 11 years since the 2004 riots in which major damage was done, so if you wish to discard one then you also have to discard the other.
Now exactly what damage since 2004 has been done to any historical sites? All the reports that I have seen have been of vandalism mainly to abandoned buildings. You have some instances of graffiti written on walls (of course there is not that issue anywhere in the world especially the 195 countries in UNESCO). Should the police keep guards posted outside of a building that has not been used in 16 years?
Considering it is Serbs in this forum that are so critical of Kosovo, can you honestly say that the actions of Serbs should be removed from consideration on the discussion. After all aren't we talking about what Albanians have done toward Serbs, so you want to remove any discussion of what Serbs have done to Albanians? Makes no sense whatever.
Lets cut to the chase on this issue, it is not about what UNESCO stands for, it boils down to Kosovo joining an international organization it could be the International PETA organization for that matter, you and yours think that it somehow defines Kosovo as a state and you create the argument to prevent that. Nothing more
Agreed. If they get the votes, they are in. I formulated my question poorly. There is no legal obstacle.
However, I counter on the remaining formulations. if one enters UNESCO, one becomes responsible for the well being of those sites. I agree that it is logical that Serbia would want this because failure would lead to interrnational censure.
That said, To date, the track record is poor. How can one be assured that the track record will be reversed? What assurances does one have? To this day, it requires foreign military to defend those sites. Please note that I use the word "defend." There is something perverse about the necessity to even use the word "defend" in this context. This is not war, but 16 years after the war. Clearly the government in charge cant do it for lack of resources (or won't do it). Once a priceless sacred site is demolished, international censure is worthless. its too late after the deed is done.
And finally, the matter at hand is the fitness of Pristina to administer the "world's heritage." This debate has nothing to do with Serbia. Serbia's record is not being assessed. So let us keep the attention right where its supposed to be.
Of course my argument will be met by scorn from others, but I really said nothing inflammatory. These are perfectly normal and acceptable questions.
Is Pristina legally entitled to enter UNESCO, and if they are legally entitled, should they be in charge of sites of historical significance, that under their watch, have been severely damaged (many deliberately) while others are under 24-hour military protection. And has this been an effort to erase existence of a significant Serbian cultural footprint that dates back to 1100 or so?
This is the matter at hand.
(factman, 28 July 2015 02:44)
As far as Kosovo's legal entitlement to join UNESCO, that one is simple, if it can obtain enough votes to join it is legally entitled, if not it is not. There is no international laws that determine that as it is a self controlled entity.
As far as should they be in control of these sites? That is not a question for UNESCO, they have no police powers. They cannot take control of a site away from a government.
Considering that the Serbian goal was the total removal and of not only the Albanian people but any sign of their existence during the 90's makes them ineligible to pass judgement on Albanian reactions to Serb heritage in Kosovo.
In other words once you slap my face, you lose the right to condemn me for slapping yours.
But it only seems logical to me that Serbia would want Kosovo in UNESCO as any action against historical sites would be subject to censure by the international body.
1/2/3/ are rather close to the truth. Those whom we now call the Greeks really brought their capitol of the ancient Rome from Alexandria (now Egypt) to establish New Rome on Bosporus. In 1382 (Gregorian) and in 300 (Julian) Dmitry I Donskoy aka Murad I aka Constantine I some 30 km away from the New Rome on the other side of the Bosporus (Golden Horn) established his new capitol and called it after himself. By that time cannons were widely spread and the new place was much easier to defend.
4/6/7/ those are fake names as Arabs never played any role on this territory and their names nobody cared.
8/9/ In 1453 the Horde seized Constantinople. They army was multinational including people from Caucasus and Tatar speaking from Volga river but their main striking force were people of Balkans. And the whole attack was from the territory of Balkans headed by Ivan III Grozny (Mehmet II). The siege took 53 days and the city was robbed. The new name became STAN BULGAR or STANBUL. STAN is a Russian word for PLACE while BULGARS were people from Volga.
10/11/12/ All true.
13/14/15/16/ Halk-e Don is a Persian name and it has only two possible interpretations : PEOPLE OF DON or PEOPLE OF DONSKOY. In old Russian DON meant RIVER or WATER and one of the rivers in Caucasus still has this name. Halk-e Don was the most important part of Constantinople/Stanbul.
How can be so many nationalist Serbs here , in a country where average salary is more less MINIMUM salary from CROATIA + Serbia is the only country from region who is in recenssion even in the year 2015 ! and with one of the most big unemployment from region .
It is amazing and impressive how many NATIONALISTS are in SERBIA .
At leasts Romanians understood that they are a nothing
"If" indeed they were once Catholic churches, they are not now.
Now they are Serbian Orthodox churches.
it is a well-documented and consistent phenomenon that ancient sacred sites were built on prior ancient sacred sites.
Therefore, if these were once Catholic churches, it is likely that they too were built upon pre-existent pre-Christian sacred sites.
So that argument really means nothing in this discussion, nor is it well formulated.
Nor does it matter who lived on the territory of Kosovo first.
Unless you sprouted from the earth, or you are Adam or Eve, someone came before you too.
It means nothing in this discussion, or the discussion of status.
The matter at hand is as follows:
Is Pristina legally entitled to enter UNESCO, and if they are legally entitled, should they be in charge of sites of historical significance, that under their watch, have been severely damaged (many deliberately) while others are under 24-hour military protection. And has this been an effort to erase existence of a significant Serbian cultural footprint that dates back to 1100 or so?
Maybe you must first do something to clean your own shit first and then say look we are improving so give us a carrot ? Then we can talk about peace and bashkim here. Those are the oldest churches and monasteries on this planet where one the Shqiparet also prayed.
(rote, 27 July 2015 13:42)
You can't talk about cleaning our own shit when you're defending one of those who burned Kosova to the ground. There is no church and no morals that will clean this dudes acts. People come first, buildings come last. When those who wreaked havoc and victimized our children are preaching morality from Serbia and you defend these two faced war criminals then your point is totally lost. You can't request people to clean their house when you have biggest piece of $hit in your own house, on your dining table.
Also the oldest churches and monasteries on the planet were in caves. The rest got built when the church became a financial institution(you know that from the Rolex that the head of the Russian church likes to wear). The same can be said for most religions.
Just when you think that an insane asylum has carried this nutcase away, he resurfaces. How is this possible? Why do the Serbian people keep punishing themselves by allowing unstable people like Vulin to represent them. I know he not an elected official, but they can certainly protest in the streets, and get changes made. But no, the lead sheep herder is tending his his sheep quite well, some compliants now and then, but basically all is quiet. And Vulin haunts another day.
As you must know the capitol of the Ottomans changed name several times. During Byzantine it was called Tsar Grad , then in 1380 Dmitry Donskoy (also known as Constantine the Great and Murad I) moved his capitol here and called it Constantinople.
(rote, 24 July 2015 16:57)
rote,
You must be drinking bad vodka again since you are hallucinating once more. Constantine the Great had been dead for 1,000 years by 1380 when you said he reigned. I guess the Russian educational system is not what it once was, now that Putin is president for life. My hunch is that Czar Vlad has orchestrated the dumbing down of Russian education so as to better control his subjects. Also, it will be news to historians that Constantine and Murad the 1st WERE ONE AND THE SAME PERSON. I hope you are not trying to use reincarnation to support your argument! I realize Putin cannot procure potatoes due to Western sanctions, but you must refrain from drinking vodka made from the only remaining potatoes left in Russia, those which are rotten, or else you'll go blind.
The Serbian people have eliminated all nationalists and nationalist parities from parliament. No radicals, no dss, no dveri. No opponent to eu and kosovo independence can get elected in Serbia. Why can't government follow Serbian people and schedule Kosovo removal referendum.
“Albanians once prayed in those churches, but they were Catholic churches at that time”
Christianity was state religion of the Great Horde. It appeared here as well as it verisons like Islam, Catholicism, Judaism and Buddhism. So initially Shqiptaret could be only Orthodox Christians. Islam was a trend inside the Orthodox Church and we coexisted for at least 300 years praying in our joint churches. The difference we had was only religious while the difference with the Catholics always had political taste. All because of the events inside the Horde. In 1481 the famous Ugra River Standing put an end to the internal conflicts. Ivan III (Mehmet II)remained the head of the White Horde (Albanians) but he gave autonomy to the Golden Horde. Moreover all Horde’s lands in South Europe, Asia and Africa were submitted to the former Golden Horde known as the Ottomans while the rest of Europe, Siberia, Central Russia, Japan, Korea and China remained in direct rule of the Whites. By that time control over Constantinople had been already restored. But some of the children of Dmitry I Donskoy (Constantine I = Murad I) and his Patriarch Nicolas V flew to Vatican and launched anti-Horde campaign. Of course they stole the gold of Constantinople and the famous library. Nicolas V was the first real Pope and he gave life to Catholicism. In 1448 he bought land on the other side of Tibor river and built there his PRIVATE St.Peter Church on a lake where nobody could had been burried ...
“How could it possibly be that the churches and monasteries in Kosova are amongst the oldest … “
It depends on when you think Jesus was born and what were the monasteries built for. Concerning the birthdate I have to remind you that 1582 was the year of the Gregorian Reform when for the first time in history the Catholic Church claimed as if Jesus was born the day we celebrate now. Before that they celebrated other Jubilees … Of course the Orthodox Church denied it but in 1613 after the Prussian (Zaharins-Romanovs) seized power in Moscovian part of the Empire the new Tsar Mikhail appointed his younger brother as the head of the church and the job was done. Other Orthodox churches followed Mother Russia …
I believe that Jesus was born in 1152 in Crimea and executed in 1185 in Jerusalem near Istanbul and we can talk about it. So the Serbian monasteries are very old. Initially they were built only to home retired Cossacks who were too old to make families but were reliable soldiers of the Great Horde. Monasteries were free of taxes and some monks became very rich using labor of the local peoples. Of course they also prayed for their souls plus in case of emergencies monasteries became castles where local people found shelter. Because of the permanent wars on all the continent too many widows appeared so rather soon women monasteries were also established.
My love and admiration for the long-suffering citizens of Serbia demand that I urge Serbia's leadership to embrace the reality of Kosovo independence and to help, rather than hinder, Kosovo and Serbia's full integration into Europe and the responsible community of democratic nations.
The church is one of the autocephalous Orthodox Christian churches, ranking sixth in order of seniority after Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Russia.[citation needed] It is the second oldest Slavic Orthodox Church in the world (after the Bulgarian Orthodox Church)
Serbia has lost too many battles against her neighbors. I don't see her making a comeback anytime soon.
(Guest, 27 July 2015 15:33)
Have you been hibernating? Srebrenica resolution failed, NATO allies refused to celebrate ethnic cleansing with Croatia..this all in the last few weeks. And besides, Serbia has never lost anything against its neighbors, only against much stronger empires.
Why why, the man in black Vulin back from his long hibernation?
What did you expect Vulin? After your police & military hit squads authorized directly from radical Serbia itself in cold blood killed 1000s of innocent Albanians from 1981 thru 1999, for the simple reason of being Albanian! And as many as 150,000 from 1912 thru 1981!
If looked at with a precentage scale, Serbia only received maybe a 5-10% payback, nothing in comparison to the cruelty Albanians suffered at the hands of barbaric Serb radicals! And the churches you are referring too, the ones truly dating back to the 14th century,
(as many were only put there in recent years by milosevich's propaganda machine)
those churches were in fact built and worshipped in by Christian Albanians! Those churches belong to the people of Kosova (Dardania)!
In 1389 at the battle of Kosova pole yes the Serb king lazar was present, along with many if not the majority of Albanian Christian warriors, as Islam had not made a impact in the Balkans region before that point! Those churches will always belong to Kosova's majority,Albanians, as they have been paid for by our Albanian ancestors, paid for in Albanian blood!!!
https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/v/vickers-serb.html
http://www.balkanhistory.com/kosovo_1389.htm
Those are the oldest churches and monasteries on this planet where one the Shqiparet also prayed.
(rote, 27 July 2015 13:42)
rote,
Once again you've been caught in a lie. How could it possibly be that the churches and monasteries in Kosova are amongst the oldest on the planet when the Serbs were amongst the last to embrace Christianity. You are, inadvertently, correct however, in that the Albanians did once prayed in those churches, but they were Catholic churches at that time before being converted to Orthodox ones. Please note, in those early, once Catholic churches the congregation did not face East as they would if they had been Orthodox houses of worship. But, then again, your revisionist history, does not take that fact into account. Now then, don't you think you have discredited yourself quite enough and it is now time, again, for you to change your identity so that you may regain a following from amongst the ignorant Serb masses.
Oh Vucic's minion is out talking again. But instead of employment in Serbia (is that what the Ministry of Labor is about?) he is talking about UNESCO and Kosovo.
You know, UNESCO is not only about orthodox churches. It is about a lot of other things.
Of course we know this is nothing but tough talk for the Serb people, doubt any are really impressed except the very uneducated, though.
As the world powers know about the brutality that Serbia unleashed on the Albanian people in Kosovo, as well as the Croats and Bosnians. They also know of the role of the Orthodox Church and its leaders in their heinous crimes. Kosovo declared independence in 2008 and all the countries and organizations that have recognized it, this is long after the 2004 riots and Vulin is not telling the world anything these people do not already know. If the US and EU want Kosovo in UNESCO, it will be. It will take more than Serbia and its recent history to convince anyone that could make a difference to vote against Kosovo.
Doubtful China will speak up and should Russia do so, their voice will go into the same category as their veto of the Srebrenica Resolution and their adversity to a tribunal for the shooting down of the Malaysian flight by pro Russian terrorists.
Vulin has selective thinking; by his logic Serbia should then be kicked from UNESCO as they burned homes, mosques, schools and library in 1998 to 1999.
When Serbian politicians say that they have changed we need to believe them but they always try to teach others how to behave,
Dacic was there with Milosevic and now its ok he has changes must have had some gulas special for clensing.
Vucic and Nicolic where sworn cetniks and one is duke, Vucic said we kill 100 muslims for each Serb by this acount we should do the same But special gulash has helped him changed.
All others can not change interesting.
UNESCO will accept Kosovo and if Albanians wanted to burn them they can and admision in UNESCO or not wont make it different.
And this ugly man want to stop Kosovo for being part of unesco :) your ugly propaganda has expired ones and for all. Respect for Balkan (Bashkim, 27 July 2015 12:02)
How dare you to seek for UNESCO membership after what you have done to the treasure cultural monuments in Kosovo ? Who is the ugly after that ? Is it a kinda blackmail : either you accept us or we’ll keep on destroying the monuments and terrorizing the people here ? Maybe you must first do something to clean your own shit first and then say look we are improving so give us a carrot ? Then we can talk about peace and bashkim here. Those are the oldest churches and monasteries on this planet where one the Shqiparet also prayed.
This man shouldn't represent Serbs. Serbs always will suffer for as long they keep this ruthless uneducated man in government!! Kosovo has suffered for century's. And this ugly man want to stop Kosovo for being part of unesco :) your ugly propaganda has expired ones and for all. Respect for Balkan
Those are the oldest churches and monasteries on this planet where one the Shqiparet also prayed.
(rote, 27 July 2015 13:42)
rote,
Once again you've been caught in a lie. How could it possibly be that the churches and monasteries in Kosova are amongst the oldest on the planet when the Serbs were amongst the last to embrace Christianity. You are, inadvertently, correct however, in that the Albanians did once prayed in those churches, but they were Catholic churches at that time before being converted to Orthodox ones. Please note, in those early, once Catholic churches the congregation did not face East as they would if they had been Orthodox houses of worship. But, then again, your revisionist history, does not take that fact into account. Now then, don't you think you have discredited yourself quite enough and it is now time, again, for you to change your identity so that you may regain a following from amongst the ignorant Serb masses.
This man shouldn't represent Serbs. Serbs always will suffer for as long they keep this ruthless uneducated man in government!! Kosovo has suffered for century's. And this ugly man want to stop Kosovo for being part of unesco :) your ugly propaganda has expired ones and for all. Respect for Balkan
Of course we know this is nothing but tough talk for the Serb people, doubt any are really impressed except the very uneducated, though.
As the world powers know about the brutality that Serbia unleashed on the Albanian people in Kosovo, as well as the Croats and Bosnians. They also know of the role of the Orthodox Church and its leaders in their heinous crimes. Kosovo declared independence in 2008 and all the countries and organizations that have recognized it, this is long after the 2004 riots and Vulin is not telling the world anything these people do not already know. If the US and EU want Kosovo in UNESCO, it will be. It will take more than Serbia and its recent history to convince anyone that could make a difference to vote against Kosovo.
Doubtful China will speak up and should Russia do so, their voice will go into the same category as their veto of the Srebrenica Resolution and their adversity to a tribunal for the shooting down of the Malaysian flight by pro Russian terrorists.
Vulin has selective thinking; by his logic Serbia should then be kicked from UNESCO as they burned homes, mosques, schools and library in 1998 to 1999.
When Serbian politicians say that they have changed we need to believe them but they always try to teach others how to behave,
Dacic was there with Milosevic and now its ok he has changes must have had some gulas special for clensing.
Vucic and Nicolic where sworn cetniks and one is duke, Vucic said we kill 100 muslims for each Serb by this acount we should do the same But special gulash has helped him changed.
All others can not change interesting.
UNESCO will accept Kosovo and if Albanians wanted to burn them they can and admision in UNESCO or not wont make it different.
Oh Vucic's minion is out talking again. But instead of employment in Serbia (is that what the Ministry of Labor is about?) he is talking about UNESCO and Kosovo.
You know, UNESCO is not only about orthodox churches. It is about a lot of other things.
Why why, the man in black Vulin back from his long hibernation?
What did you expect Vulin? After your police & military hit squads authorized directly from radical Serbia itself in cold blood killed 1000s of innocent Albanians from 1981 thru 1999, for the simple reason of being Albanian! And as many as 150,000 from 1912 thru 1981!
If looked at with a precentage scale, Serbia only received maybe a 5-10% payback, nothing in comparison to the cruelty Albanians suffered at the hands of barbaric Serb radicals! And the churches you are referring too, the ones truly dating back to the 14th century,
(as many were only put there in recent years by milosevich's propaganda machine)
those churches were in fact built and worshipped in by Christian Albanians! Those churches belong to the people of Kosova (Dardania)!
In 1389 at the battle of Kosova pole yes the Serb king lazar was present, along with many if not the majority of Albanian Christian warriors, as Islam had not made a impact in the Balkans region before that point! Those churches will always belong to Kosova's majority,Albanians, as they have been paid for by our Albanian ancestors, paid for in Albanian blood!!!
https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/v/vickers-serb.html
http://www.balkanhistory.com/kosovo_1389.htm
And this ugly man want to stop Kosovo for being part of unesco :) your ugly propaganda has expired ones and for all. Respect for Balkan (Bashkim, 27 July 2015 12:02)
How dare you to seek for UNESCO membership after what you have done to the treasure cultural monuments in Kosovo ? Who is the ugly after that ? Is it a kinda blackmail : either you accept us or we’ll keep on destroying the monuments and terrorizing the people here ? Maybe you must first do something to clean your own shit first and then say look we are improving so give us a carrot ? Then we can talk about peace and bashkim here. Those are the oldest churches and monasteries on this planet where one the Shqiparet also prayed.
My love and admiration for the long-suffering citizens of Serbia demand that I urge Serbia's leadership to embrace the reality of Kosovo independence and to help, rather than hinder, Kosovo and Serbia's full integration into Europe and the responsible community of democratic nations.
Serbia has lost too many battles against her neighbors. I don't see her making a comeback anytime soon.
(Guest, 27 July 2015 15:33)
Have you been hibernating? Srebrenica resolution failed, NATO allies refused to celebrate ethnic cleansing with Croatia..this all in the last few weeks. And besides, Serbia has never lost anything against its neighbors, only against much stronger empires.
As you must know the capitol of the Ottomans changed name several times. During Byzantine it was called Tsar Grad , then in 1380 Dmitry Donskoy (also known as Constantine the Great and Murad I) moved his capitol here and called it Constantinople.
(rote, 24 July 2015 16:57)
rote,
You must be drinking bad vodka again since you are hallucinating once more. Constantine the Great had been dead for 1,000 years by 1380 when you said he reigned. I guess the Russian educational system is not what it once was, now that Putin is president for life. My hunch is that Czar Vlad has orchestrated the dumbing down of Russian education so as to better control his subjects. Also, it will be news to historians that Constantine and Murad the 1st WERE ONE AND THE SAME PERSON. I hope you are not trying to use reincarnation to support your argument! I realize Putin cannot procure potatoes due to Western sanctions, but you must refrain from drinking vodka made from the only remaining potatoes left in Russia, those which are rotten, or else you'll go blind.
Maybe you must first do something to clean your own shit first and then say look we are improving so give us a carrot ? Then we can talk about peace and bashkim here. Those are the oldest churches and monasteries on this planet where one the Shqiparet also prayed.
(rote, 27 July 2015 13:42)
You can't talk about cleaning our own shit when you're defending one of those who burned Kosova to the ground. There is no church and no morals that will clean this dudes acts. People come first, buildings come last. When those who wreaked havoc and victimized our children are preaching morality from Serbia and you defend these two faced war criminals then your point is totally lost. You can't request people to clean their house when you have biggest piece of $hit in your own house, on your dining table.
Also the oldest churches and monasteries on the planet were in caves. The rest got built when the church became a financial institution(you know that from the Rolex that the head of the Russian church likes to wear). The same can be said for most religions.
The Serbian people have eliminated all nationalists and nationalist parities from parliament. No radicals, no dss, no dveri. No opponent to eu and kosovo independence can get elected in Serbia. Why can't government follow Serbian people and schedule Kosovo removal referendum.
"If" indeed they were once Catholic churches, they are not now.
Now they are Serbian Orthodox churches.
it is a well-documented and consistent phenomenon that ancient sacred sites were built on prior ancient sacred sites.
Therefore, if these were once Catholic churches, it is likely that they too were built upon pre-existent pre-Christian sacred sites.
So that argument really means nothing in this discussion, nor is it well formulated.
Nor does it matter who lived on the territory of Kosovo first.
Unless you sprouted from the earth, or you are Adam or Eve, someone came before you too.
It means nothing in this discussion, or the discussion of status.
The matter at hand is as follows:
Is Pristina legally entitled to enter UNESCO, and if they are legally entitled, should they be in charge of sites of historical significance, that under their watch, have been severely damaged (many deliberately) while others are under 24-hour military protection. And has this been an effort to erase existence of a significant Serbian cultural footprint that dates back to 1100 or so?
How can be so many nationalist Serbs here , in a country where average salary is more less MINIMUM salary from CROATIA + Serbia is the only country from region who is in recenssion even in the year 2015 ! and with one of the most big unemployment from region .
It is amazing and impressive how many NATIONALISTS are in SERBIA .
At leasts Romanians understood that they are a nothing
The church is one of the autocephalous Orthodox Christian churches, ranking sixth in order of seniority after Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Russia.[citation needed] It is the second oldest Slavic Orthodox Church in the world (after the Bulgarian Orthodox Church)
Just when you think that an insane asylum has carried this nutcase away, he resurfaces. How is this possible? Why do the Serbian people keep punishing themselves by allowing unstable people like Vulin to represent them. I know he not an elected official, but they can certainly protest in the streets, and get changes made. But no, the lead sheep herder is tending his his sheep quite well, some compliants now and then, but basically all is quiet. And Vulin haunts another day.
(factman, 29 July 2015 03:32)
Ok so you say that it has been 16 years since the war, it has also been 11 years since the 2004 riots in which major damage was done, so if you wish to discard one then you also have to discard the other.
Now exactly what damage since 2004 has been done to any historical sites? All the reports that I have seen have been of vandalism mainly to abandoned buildings. You have some instances of graffiti written on walls (of course there is not that issue anywhere in the world especially the 195 countries in UNESCO). Should the police keep guards posted outside of a building that has not been used in 16 years?
Considering it is Serbs in this forum that are so critical of Kosovo, can you honestly say that the actions of Serbs should be removed from consideration on the discussion. After all aren't we talking about what Albanians have done toward Serbs, so you want to remove any discussion of what Serbs have done to Albanians? Makes no sense whatever.
Lets cut to the chase on this issue, it is not about what UNESCO stands for, it boils down to Kosovo joining an international organization it could be the International PETA organization for that matter, you and yours think that it somehow defines Kosovo as a state and you create the argument to prevent that. Nothing more
There is nothing Albanian-built that is worthy of UNESCO. The most beautiful, cultural shrines are all Serbian. There are perhaps some Turkish-built mosques - but even they were often built from destroyed Serbian churches and monasteries and are therefore a symbol of theft.
(ida, 29 July 2015 21:14)
For those that are ignorant about what UNESCO stands for they tend to equalize its function with churches or religion. Google what the name means.
Second point. Serbia stole ancient artifacts from Kosova,and Kosova's museums. Pre-Serb arrival artifacts. That is part of the cultural heritage. Hopefully wouldn't happen if UNESCO got involved in it.
Third- When did you get your licence that determines what deserves UNESCO protection? Because if it's as simple as voicing some personal opinion then one could easily feel that there's nothing Serbia built that requires UNESCO protection. Why? Simply because someone feels like it, the same way you feel like it, because of course you have no authority in the field. You just like to talk and take your own opinions for facts.
“How could it possibly be that the churches and monasteries in Kosova are amongst the oldest … “
It depends on when you think Jesus was born and what were the monasteries built for. Concerning the birthdate I have to remind you that 1582 was the year of the Gregorian Reform when for the first time in history the Catholic Church claimed as if Jesus was born the day we celebrate now. Before that they celebrated other Jubilees … Of course the Orthodox Church denied it but in 1613 after the Prussian (Zaharins-Romanovs) seized power in Moscovian part of the Empire the new Tsar Mikhail appointed his younger brother as the head of the church and the job was done. Other Orthodox churches followed Mother Russia …
I believe that Jesus was born in 1152 in Crimea and executed in 1185 in Jerusalem near Istanbul and we can talk about it. So the Serbian monasteries are very old. Initially they were built only to home retired Cossacks who were too old to make families but were reliable soldiers of the Great Horde. Monasteries were free of taxes and some monks became very rich using labor of the local peoples. Of course they also prayed for their souls plus in case of emergencies monasteries became castles where local people found shelter. Because of the permanent wars on all the continent too many widows appeared so rather soon women monasteries were also established.
And finally, the matter at hand is the fitness of Pristina to administer the "world's heritage." This debate has nothing to do with Serbia.
-- Sure it does.
Why does Serbia find itself in this predicament? I'm an atheist but let's play devil's advocate for a second. How is Serbia's track record with the cultural and religious institutions of Albanians in Kosova? Plenty of burned and destroyed buildings of non-orthodox denomination. It has paid 0 cents for the rebuilding of what it destroyed during the war. At very least Kosova's government has payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to rebuild. Yet Serbia even with this poor track record is in UNESCO. So based on this it seems to me that a poor track record doesn't seem to be a condition for membership either.
Is Pristina legally entitled to enter UNESCO, and if they are legally entitled, should they be in charge of sites of historical significance, that under their watch, have been severely damaged (many deliberately) while others are under 24-hour military protection. And has this been an effort to erase existence of a significant Serbian cultural footprint that dates back to 1100 or so?
This is the matter at hand.
(factman, 28 July 2015 02:44)
As far as Kosovo's legal entitlement to join UNESCO, that one is simple, if it can obtain enough votes to join it is legally entitled, if not it is not. There is no international laws that determine that as it is a self controlled entity.
As far as should they be in control of these sites? That is not a question for UNESCO, they have no police powers. They cannot take control of a site away from a government.
Considering that the Serbian goal was the total removal and of not only the Albanian people but any sign of their existence during the 90's makes them ineligible to pass judgement on Albanian reactions to Serb heritage in Kosovo.
In other words once you slap my face, you lose the right to condemn me for slapping yours.
But it only seems logical to me that Serbia would want Kosovo in UNESCO as any action against historical sites would be subject to censure by the international body.
“Albanians once prayed in those churches, but they were Catholic churches at that time”
Christianity was state religion of the Great Horde. It appeared here as well as it verisons like Islam, Catholicism, Judaism and Buddhism. So initially Shqiptaret could be only Orthodox Christians. Islam was a trend inside the Orthodox Church and we coexisted for at least 300 years praying in our joint churches. The difference we had was only religious while the difference with the Catholics always had political taste. All because of the events inside the Horde. In 1481 the famous Ugra River Standing put an end to the internal conflicts. Ivan III (Mehmet II)remained the head of the White Horde (Albanians) but he gave autonomy to the Golden Horde. Moreover all Horde’s lands in South Europe, Asia and Africa were submitted to the former Golden Horde known as the Ottomans while the rest of Europe, Siberia, Central Russia, Japan, Korea and China remained in direct rule of the Whites. By that time control over Constantinople had been already restored. But some of the children of Dmitry I Donskoy (Constantine I = Murad I) and his Patriarch Nicolas V flew to Vatican and launched anti-Horde campaign. Of course they stole the gold of Constantinople and the famous library. Nicolas V was the first real Pope and he gave life to Catholicism. In 1448 he bought land on the other side of Tibor river and built there his PRIVATE St.Peter Church on a lake where nobody could had been burried ...
Agreed. If they get the votes, they are in. I formulated my question poorly. There is no legal obstacle.
However, I counter on the remaining formulations. if one enters UNESCO, one becomes responsible for the well being of those sites. I agree that it is logical that Serbia would want this because failure would lead to interrnational censure.
That said, To date, the track record is poor. How can one be assured that the track record will be reversed? What assurances does one have? To this day, it requires foreign military to defend those sites. Please note that I use the word "defend." There is something perverse about the necessity to even use the word "defend" in this context. This is not war, but 16 years after the war. Clearly the government in charge cant do it for lack of resources (or won't do it). Once a priceless sacred site is demolished, international censure is worthless. its too late after the deed is done.
And finally, the matter at hand is the fitness of Pristina to administer the "world's heritage." This debate has nothing to do with Serbia. Serbia's record is not being assessed. So let us keep the attention right where its supposed to be.
Of course my argument will be met by scorn from others, but I really said nothing inflammatory. These are perfectly normal and acceptable questions.
There is no need for personal attack by resorting to "you and yours." This is simply a civil discussion of differring viewpoints where each side is supposed to make the strongest case it possibly can in an intellctual wxamination of the issue. Is that not the primary purpose of these forums? And that the secondary purpose be the establishment of communication between two peoples who have strained relations?
A few additions and then I will no longer write on this subject matter.
First, you overlook that the main UNESCO sites are curently being protected by foreign military because their safety is threatened. This seems like an Eugene Ionesco absurdist comedy.
Finally, there seems to be a continuing tendency to use the actions of others to justify the actions of self. It is Pristina's record which is under question in this application to UNESCO. The application is asking that Pristina administer the cultural heritage of Kosovo. That is what is being discussed.
Concerning your final comment, yes, it seems that Pristina, in fact, has no interest to protect the world's cultural heritage, but is using this as a vehicle to gain membership to another international organization. This creates the very dynamic/ response in the other party that you criticize in your post.
1/2/3/ are rather close to the truth. Those whom we now call the Greeks really brought their capitol of the ancient Rome from Alexandria (now Egypt) to establish New Rome on Bosporus. In 1382 (Gregorian) and in 300 (Julian) Dmitry I Donskoy aka Murad I aka Constantine I some 30 km away from the New Rome on the other side of the Bosporus (Golden Horn) established his new capitol and called it after himself. By that time cannons were widely spread and the new place was much easier to defend.
4/6/7/ those are fake names as Arabs never played any role on this territory and their names nobody cared.
8/9/ In 1453 the Horde seized Constantinople. They army was multinational including people from Caucasus and Tatar speaking from Volga river but their main striking force were people of Balkans. And the whole attack was from the territory of Balkans headed by Ivan III Grozny (Mehmet II). The siege took 53 days and the city was robbed. The new name became STAN BULGAR or STANBUL. STAN is a Russian word for PLACE while BULGARS were people from Volga.
10/11/12/ All true.
13/14/15/16/ Halk-e Don is a Persian name and it has only two possible interpretations : PEOPLE OF DON or PEOPLE OF DONSKOY. In old Russian DON meant RIVER or WATER and one of the rivers in Caucasus still has this name. Halk-e Don was the most important part of Constantinople/Stanbul.
There is nothing Albanian-built that is worthy of UNESCO. The most beautiful, cultural shrines are all Serbian. There are perhaps some Turkish-built mosques - but even they were often built from destroyed Serbian churches and monasteries and are therefore a symbol of theft.
And this ugly man want to stop Kosovo for being part of unesco :) your ugly propaganda has expired ones and for all. Respect for Balkan (Bashkim, 27 July 2015 12:02)
How dare you to seek for UNESCO membership after what you have done to the treasure cultural monuments in Kosovo ? Who is the ugly after that ? Is it a kinda blackmail : either you accept us or we’ll keep on destroying the monuments and terrorizing the people here ? Maybe you must first do something to clean your own shit first and then say look we are improving so give us a carrot ? Then we can talk about peace and bashkim here. Those are the oldest churches and monasteries on this planet where one the Shqiparet also prayed.
Serbia has lost too many battles against her neighbors. I don't see her making a comeback anytime soon.
(Guest, 27 July 2015 15:33)
Have you been hibernating? Srebrenica resolution failed, NATO allies refused to celebrate ethnic cleansing with Croatia..this all in the last few weeks. And besides, Serbia has never lost anything against its neighbors, only against much stronger empires.
This man shouldn't represent Serbs. Serbs always will suffer for as long they keep this ruthless uneducated man in government!! Kosovo has suffered for century's. And this ugly man want to stop Kosovo for being part of unesco :) your ugly propaganda has expired ones and for all. Respect for Balkan
Of course we know this is nothing but tough talk for the Serb people, doubt any are really impressed except the very uneducated, though.
As the world powers know about the brutality that Serbia unleashed on the Albanian people in Kosovo, as well as the Croats and Bosnians. They also know of the role of the Orthodox Church and its leaders in their heinous crimes. Kosovo declared independence in 2008 and all the countries and organizations that have recognized it, this is long after the 2004 riots and Vulin is not telling the world anything these people do not already know. If the US and EU want Kosovo in UNESCO, it will be. It will take more than Serbia and its recent history to convince anyone that could make a difference to vote against Kosovo.
Doubtful China will speak up and should Russia do so, their voice will go into the same category as their veto of the Srebrenica Resolution and their adversity to a tribunal for the shooting down of the Malaysian flight by pro Russian terrorists.
“How could it possibly be that the churches and monasteries in Kosova are amongst the oldest … “
It depends on when you think Jesus was born and what were the monasteries built for. Concerning the birthdate I have to remind you that 1582 was the year of the Gregorian Reform when for the first time in history the Catholic Church claimed as if Jesus was born the day we celebrate now. Before that they celebrated other Jubilees … Of course the Orthodox Church denied it but in 1613 after the Prussian (Zaharins-Romanovs) seized power in Moscovian part of the Empire the new Tsar Mikhail appointed his younger brother as the head of the church and the job was done. Other Orthodox churches followed Mother Russia …
I believe that Jesus was born in 1152 in Crimea and executed in 1185 in Jerusalem near Istanbul and we can talk about it. So the Serbian monasteries are very old. Initially they were built only to home retired Cossacks who were too old to make families but were reliable soldiers of the Great Horde. Monasteries were free of taxes and some monks became very rich using labor of the local peoples. Of course they also prayed for their souls plus in case of emergencies monasteries became castles where local people found shelter. Because of the permanent wars on all the continent too many widows appeared so rather soon women monasteries were also established.
“Albanians once prayed in those churches, but they were Catholic churches at that time”
Christianity was state religion of the Great Horde. It appeared here as well as it verisons like Islam, Catholicism, Judaism and Buddhism. So initially Shqiptaret could be only Orthodox Christians. Islam was a trend inside the Orthodox Church and we coexisted for at least 300 years praying in our joint churches. The difference we had was only religious while the difference with the Catholics always had political taste. All because of the events inside the Horde. In 1481 the famous Ugra River Standing put an end to the internal conflicts. Ivan III (Mehmet II)remained the head of the White Horde (Albanians) but he gave autonomy to the Golden Horde. Moreover all Horde’s lands in South Europe, Asia and Africa were submitted to the former Golden Horde known as the Ottomans while the rest of Europe, Siberia, Central Russia, Japan, Korea and China remained in direct rule of the Whites. By that time control over Constantinople had been already restored. But some of the children of Dmitry I Donskoy (Constantine I = Murad I) and his Patriarch Nicolas V flew to Vatican and launched anti-Horde campaign. Of course they stole the gold of Constantinople and the famous library. Nicolas V was the first real Pope and he gave life to Catholicism. In 1448 he bought land on the other side of Tibor river and built there his PRIVATE St.Peter Church on a lake where nobody could had been burried ...
Vulin has selective thinking; by his logic Serbia should then be kicked from UNESCO as they burned homes, mosques, schools and library in 1998 to 1999.
When Serbian politicians say that they have changed we need to believe them but they always try to teach others how to behave,
Dacic was there with Milosevic and now its ok he has changes must have had some gulas special for clensing.
Vucic and Nicolic where sworn cetniks and one is duke, Vucic said we kill 100 muslims for each Serb by this acount we should do the same But special gulash has helped him changed.
All others can not change interesting.
UNESCO will accept Kosovo and if Albanians wanted to burn them they can and admision in UNESCO or not wont make it different.
Why why, the man in black Vulin back from his long hibernation?
What did you expect Vulin? After your police & military hit squads authorized directly from radical Serbia itself in cold blood killed 1000s of innocent Albanians from 1981 thru 1999, for the simple reason of being Albanian! And as many as 150,000 from 1912 thru 1981!
If looked at with a precentage scale, Serbia only received maybe a 5-10% payback, nothing in comparison to the cruelty Albanians suffered at the hands of barbaric Serb radicals! And the churches you are referring too, the ones truly dating back to the 14th century,
(as many were only put there in recent years by milosevich's propaganda machine)
those churches were in fact built and worshipped in by Christian Albanians! Those churches belong to the people of Kosova (Dardania)!
In 1389 at the battle of Kosova pole yes the Serb king lazar was present, along with many if not the majority of Albanian Christian warriors, as Islam had not made a impact in the Balkans region before that point! Those churches will always belong to Kosova's majority,Albanians, as they have been paid for by our Albanian ancestors, paid for in Albanian blood!!!
https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/v/vickers-serb.html
http://www.balkanhistory.com/kosovo_1389.htm
Those are the oldest churches and monasteries on this planet where one the Shqiparet also prayed.
(rote, 27 July 2015 13:42)
rote,
Once again you've been caught in a lie. How could it possibly be that the churches and monasteries in Kosova are amongst the oldest on the planet when the Serbs were amongst the last to embrace Christianity. You are, inadvertently, correct however, in that the Albanians did once prayed in those churches, but they were Catholic churches at that time before being converted to Orthodox ones. Please note, in those early, once Catholic churches the congregation did not face East as they would if they had been Orthodox houses of worship. But, then again, your revisionist history, does not take that fact into account. Now then, don't you think you have discredited yourself quite enough and it is now time, again, for you to change your identity so that you may regain a following from amongst the ignorant Serb masses.
The church is one of the autocephalous Orthodox Christian churches, ranking sixth in order of seniority after Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Russia.[citation needed] It is the second oldest Slavic Orthodox Church in the world (after the Bulgarian Orthodox Church)
My love and admiration for the long-suffering citizens of Serbia demand that I urge Serbia's leadership to embrace the reality of Kosovo independence and to help, rather than hinder, Kosovo and Serbia's full integration into Europe and the responsible community of democratic nations.
Oh Vucic's minion is out talking again. But instead of employment in Serbia (is that what the Ministry of Labor is about?) he is talking about UNESCO and Kosovo.
You know, UNESCO is not only about orthodox churches. It is about a lot of other things.
The Serbian people have eliminated all nationalists and nationalist parities from parliament. No radicals, no dss, no dveri. No opponent to eu and kosovo independence can get elected in Serbia. Why can't government follow Serbian people and schedule Kosovo removal referendum.
There is nothing Albanian-built that is worthy of UNESCO. The most beautiful, cultural shrines are all Serbian. There are perhaps some Turkish-built mosques - but even they were often built from destroyed Serbian churches and monasteries and are therefore a symbol of theft.
Just when you think that an insane asylum has carried this nutcase away, he resurfaces. How is this possible? Why do the Serbian people keep punishing themselves by allowing unstable people like Vulin to represent them. I know he not an elected official, but they can certainly protest in the streets, and get changes made. But no, the lead sheep herder is tending his his sheep quite well, some compliants now and then, but basically all is quiet. And Vulin haunts another day.
How can be so many nationalist Serbs here , in a country where average salary is more less MINIMUM salary from CROATIA + Serbia is the only country from region who is in recenssion even in the year 2015 ! and with one of the most big unemployment from region .
It is amazing and impressive how many NATIONALISTS are in SERBIA .
At leasts Romanians understood that they are a nothing
1/2/3/ are rather close to the truth. Those whom we now call the Greeks really brought their capitol of the ancient Rome from Alexandria (now Egypt) to establish New Rome on Bosporus. In 1382 (Gregorian) and in 300 (Julian) Dmitry I Donskoy aka Murad I aka Constantine I some 30 km away from the New Rome on the other side of the Bosporus (Golden Horn) established his new capitol and called it after himself. By that time cannons were widely spread and the new place was much easier to defend.
4/6/7/ those are fake names as Arabs never played any role on this territory and their names nobody cared.
8/9/ In 1453 the Horde seized Constantinople. They army was multinational including people from Caucasus and Tatar speaking from Volga river but their main striking force were people of Balkans. And the whole attack was from the territory of Balkans headed by Ivan III Grozny (Mehmet II). The siege took 53 days and the city was robbed. The new name became STAN BULGAR or STANBUL. STAN is a Russian word for PLACE while BULGARS were people from Volga.
10/11/12/ All true.
13/14/15/16/ Halk-e Don is a Persian name and it has only two possible interpretations : PEOPLE OF DON or PEOPLE OF DONSKOY. In old Russian DON meant RIVER or WATER and one of the rivers in Caucasus still has this name. Halk-e Don was the most important part of Constantinople/Stanbul.
Maybe you must first do something to clean your own shit first and then say look we are improving so give us a carrot ? Then we can talk about peace and bashkim here. Those are the oldest churches and monasteries on this planet where one the Shqiparet also prayed.
(rote, 27 July 2015 13:42)
You can't talk about cleaning our own shit when you're defending one of those who burned Kosova to the ground. There is no church and no morals that will clean this dudes acts. People come first, buildings come last. When those who wreaked havoc and victimized our children are preaching morality from Serbia and you defend these two faced war criminals then your point is totally lost. You can't request people to clean their house when you have biggest piece of $hit in your own house, on your dining table.
Also the oldest churches and monasteries on the planet were in caves. The rest got built when the church became a financial institution(you know that from the Rolex that the head of the Russian church likes to wear). The same can be said for most religions.
"If" indeed they were once Catholic churches, they are not now.
Now they are Serbian Orthodox churches.
it is a well-documented and consistent phenomenon that ancient sacred sites were built on prior ancient sacred sites.
Therefore, if these were once Catholic churches, it is likely that they too were built upon pre-existent pre-Christian sacred sites.
So that argument really means nothing in this discussion, nor is it well formulated.
Nor does it matter who lived on the territory of Kosovo first.
Unless you sprouted from the earth, or you are Adam or Eve, someone came before you too.
It means nothing in this discussion, or the discussion of status.
The matter at hand is as follows:
Is Pristina legally entitled to enter UNESCO, and if they are legally entitled, should they be in charge of sites of historical significance, that under their watch, have been severely damaged (many deliberately) while others are under 24-hour military protection. And has this been an effort to erase existence of a significant Serbian cultural footprint that dates back to 1100 or so?
There is no need for personal attack by resorting to "you and yours." This is simply a civil discussion of differring viewpoints where each side is supposed to make the strongest case it possibly can in an intellctual wxamination of the issue. Is that not the primary purpose of these forums? And that the secondary purpose be the establishment of communication between two peoples who have strained relations?
A few additions and then I will no longer write on this subject matter.
First, you overlook that the main UNESCO sites are curently being protected by foreign military because their safety is threatened. This seems like an Eugene Ionesco absurdist comedy.
Finally, there seems to be a continuing tendency to use the actions of others to justify the actions of self. It is Pristina's record which is under question in this application to UNESCO. The application is asking that Pristina administer the cultural heritage of Kosovo. That is what is being discussed.
Concerning your final comment, yes, it seems that Pristina, in fact, has no interest to protect the world's cultural heritage, but is using this as a vehicle to gain membership to another international organization. This creates the very dynamic/ response in the other party that you criticize in your post.
Is Pristina legally entitled to enter UNESCO, and if they are legally entitled, should they be in charge of sites of historical significance, that under their watch, have been severely damaged (many deliberately) while others are under 24-hour military protection. And has this been an effort to erase existence of a significant Serbian cultural footprint that dates back to 1100 or so?
This is the matter at hand.
(factman, 28 July 2015 02:44)
As far as Kosovo's legal entitlement to join UNESCO, that one is simple, if it can obtain enough votes to join it is legally entitled, if not it is not. There is no international laws that determine that as it is a self controlled entity.
As far as should they be in control of these sites? That is not a question for UNESCO, they have no police powers. They cannot take control of a site away from a government.
Considering that the Serbian goal was the total removal and of not only the Albanian people but any sign of their existence during the 90's makes them ineligible to pass judgement on Albanian reactions to Serb heritage in Kosovo.
In other words once you slap my face, you lose the right to condemn me for slapping yours.
But it only seems logical to me that Serbia would want Kosovo in UNESCO as any action against historical sites would be subject to censure by the international body.
Agreed. If they get the votes, they are in. I formulated my question poorly. There is no legal obstacle.
However, I counter on the remaining formulations. if one enters UNESCO, one becomes responsible for the well being of those sites. I agree that it is logical that Serbia would want this because failure would lead to interrnational censure.
That said, To date, the track record is poor. How can one be assured that the track record will be reversed? What assurances does one have? To this day, it requires foreign military to defend those sites. Please note that I use the word "defend." There is something perverse about the necessity to even use the word "defend" in this context. This is not war, but 16 years after the war. Clearly the government in charge cant do it for lack of resources (or won't do it). Once a priceless sacred site is demolished, international censure is worthless. its too late after the deed is done.
And finally, the matter at hand is the fitness of Pristina to administer the "world's heritage." This debate has nothing to do with Serbia. Serbia's record is not being assessed. So let us keep the attention right where its supposed to be.
Of course my argument will be met by scorn from others, but I really said nothing inflammatory. These are perfectly normal and acceptable questions.
As you must know the capitol of the Ottomans changed name several times. During Byzantine it was called Tsar Grad , then in 1380 Dmitry Donskoy (also known as Constantine the Great and Murad I) moved his capitol here and called it Constantinople.
(rote, 24 July 2015 16:57)
rote,
You must be drinking bad vodka again since you are hallucinating once more. Constantine the Great had been dead for 1,000 years by 1380 when you said he reigned. I guess the Russian educational system is not what it once was, now that Putin is president for life. My hunch is that Czar Vlad has orchestrated the dumbing down of Russian education so as to better control his subjects. Also, it will be news to historians that Constantine and Murad the 1st WERE ONE AND THE SAME PERSON. I hope you are not trying to use reincarnation to support your argument! I realize Putin cannot procure potatoes due to Western sanctions, but you must refrain from drinking vodka made from the only remaining potatoes left in Russia, those which are rotten, or else you'll go blind.
And finally, the matter at hand is the fitness of Pristina to administer the "world's heritage." This debate has nothing to do with Serbia.
-- Sure it does.
Why does Serbia find itself in this predicament? I'm an atheist but let's play devil's advocate for a second. How is Serbia's track record with the cultural and religious institutions of Albanians in Kosova? Plenty of burned and destroyed buildings of non-orthodox denomination. It has paid 0 cents for the rebuilding of what it destroyed during the war. At very least Kosova's government has payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to rebuild. Yet Serbia even with this poor track record is in UNESCO. So based on this it seems to me that a poor track record doesn't seem to be a condition for membership either.
(factman, 29 July 2015 03:32)
Ok so you say that it has been 16 years since the war, it has also been 11 years since the 2004 riots in which major damage was done, so if you wish to discard one then you also have to discard the other.
Now exactly what damage since 2004 has been done to any historical sites? All the reports that I have seen have been of vandalism mainly to abandoned buildings. You have some instances of graffiti written on walls (of course there is not that issue anywhere in the world especially the 195 countries in UNESCO). Should the police keep guards posted outside of a building that has not been used in 16 years?
Considering it is Serbs in this forum that are so critical of Kosovo, can you honestly say that the actions of Serbs should be removed from consideration on the discussion. After all aren't we talking about what Albanians have done toward Serbs, so you want to remove any discussion of what Serbs have done to Albanians? Makes no sense whatever.
Lets cut to the chase on this issue, it is not about what UNESCO stands for, it boils down to Kosovo joining an international organization it could be the International PETA organization for that matter, you and yours think that it somehow defines Kosovo as a state and you create the argument to prevent that. Nothing more
There is nothing Albanian-built that is worthy of UNESCO. The most beautiful, cultural shrines are all Serbian. There are perhaps some Turkish-built mosques - but even they were often built from destroyed Serbian churches and monasteries and are therefore a symbol of theft.
(ida, 29 July 2015 21:14)
For those that are ignorant about what UNESCO stands for they tend to equalize its function with churches or religion. Google what the name means.
Second point. Serbia stole ancient artifacts from Kosova,and Kosova's museums. Pre-Serb arrival artifacts. That is part of the cultural heritage. Hopefully wouldn't happen if UNESCO got involved in it.
Third- When did you get your licence that determines what deserves UNESCO protection? Because if it's as simple as voicing some personal opinion then one could easily feel that there's nothing Serbia built that requires UNESCO protection. Why? Simply because someone feels like it, the same way you feel like it, because of course you have no authority in the field. You just like to talk and take your own opinions for facts.
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