I didn't say the Serb People ...I said in the Bosnian War the Serbs ,as in the Serb faction committed Genocide in Srebrinica .
I hope there would be some good serbs but where were the Anti Genocide Protests in Serbia?????
(Azir, 13 July 2015 13:39)
Whether Serbs are good or not for you has nothing to do with them being guilty or not guilty of genocide.
The "Serb faction" did not committ genocide. Genocide is a crime for which there is individual criminal responsibility; there is not such a thing of a "faction" of whatever ethinicity being guilty of genocide. Otherwise you are no better than people like Peggy who advocate the extermination of all 14 year old boys because the faction of "Fourteen year old boys are known to fight in a Muslim army".
It is you who write the "legalistic" trash intended to split hairs on what counts as genocide.
You are correct that the word genocide may have only been "coined" as a word in 1948 -- but the "act" of genocide is as old as mankind and pre-dates the invention of the word.
Electricity was not invented, it was discovered (It always existed)
Therefore:
Gencocide was not invented in 1948, it was only discovered (it always existed).
(factman, 13 July 2015 18:21)
Well, you did not provide any argument to show that I'm wrong - so even in mentioning the word "trash" you still write trash lol. That "splitting hairs" makes the difference between somebody walking free or spending the rest of his/her life in jail.
We are not discussing dictionaries here; we're discussing crimes perpetrated by criminals. On dictionaries, everybody can write his/her own about how to define genocide. If you want to define something as genocide, by all means go ahead; it's as irrelevant as I were to define it - it's not going to send anybody to jail. 1 million people are going to have as many different opinions of what's genocide.
But on the crime of genocide there are some determinations made beyond reasonable doubt by the international community (not me, you or a dictionary) and the determination is that the crime of genocide has been committed (so far) twice in history: 1. Rwanda 1994 and 2. Srebrenica 1995 and the perpetrators have ended up in jail. End of the story...
It is you who write the "legalistic" trash intended to split hairs on what counts as genocide.
You are correct that the word genocide may have only been "coined" as a word in 1948 -- but the "act" of genocide is as old as mankind and pre-dates the invention of the word.
For example:
Electricity was not invented, it was discovered (It always existed)
Therefore:
Gencocide was not invented in 1948, it was only discovered (it always existed).
But please don't minimize what the NDH did in WW2.
(factman, 11 July 2015 16:15)
Now, the stories that are told of the horrors at Jasenovac are some of the cruelest I have ever read. And if it were reported by your camp that 50,000 Serbs suffered these tragic ends, I would be on board to condemn it to the highest level. My issue is that on here I have read there were 500,000, 700,000 or a million Serbs who died at Jasenovac. I know of NO reason why any of the sources would have to diminish those numbers. But your idea of credible source and mine differ. So I have to wonder what is the motivation to inflate those numbers.
And the very same people who inflate those numbers are the ones who want to diminish the legitimacy of Srebrenica.
I do not wish to argue numbers with you any further and I will concede that the tragedy of Jasenovac was an unforgivable crime against the Serbian people.
But it also does nothing to absolve the Serbs of the crimes they committed in Bosnia nor Kosovo.
Most nearly all perpetrators of crimes in WW2 are dead should any still be alive they should still be prosecuted and punished as anyone who can be proven to commit crimes in Bosnia and Kosovo. Whether it be by their hand or an extension of their hand.
Please first admit the genocide in Bosnia's Jasenovac concentration camp that took place during WW2 where 600,000 perished (mostly Serbs).
(factman, 10 July 2015 18:01)
You are in the wrong forum, dear. You are not in a Court here and we are not judges to determine whether the crime genocide was committed or not during the events that you describe. For that matter the crime of genocide did not even exist at that time.
No doubt that the event you describe was terrible, but if you want that event to be declared genocide by the International Community, you should go to the UNSC and ask it to establish a Court for prosecution of those responsible for the crimes committed at Jasenovac durin WW2. During the trial, the Court will establish whether the crime of genocide was committed and if those indicted are responsible for it. Once the Court delivers the verdict, you can come back here and ask us to admit the genocide, depending on what that verdict is.
Yes, i agree. It is ironic -- but also sad -- and despicable many of the Serb actions during the civil wars. I agree. Horrible. With many disgusting acts. And all of it should be punished and remembered (so it never happens again). Let all the Serb perpetrators go to jail. I'll drive the bus.
But please don't minimize what the NDH did in WW2.
1. The first link is Croatian. By even offering the link of people who deny what was done, you say a lot about your motivations and intentions.
2. Yes, we are aware of the USHMM. So what? And that organization is the sole arbitrator? Because they are American, they know best? You quote them like God has spoken. Remember that the US at that time was an active party in the Civil Wars. One must raise the issue of possible interference in order to acheive a political goal.
3. You do not address that every single one of my sources are non-partizan. The US is more authoratative than first hand accounts (simply because it is the US)? Are you saying Jews are misrepresenting the amount killed? That they are exagerrating? Please do answer this. And what of the German and Austrian field Marshalls who wrote what they wrote? What about Tito himself?
4. You place most all your emphasis on a Museum section devoted to Jasenovac which originated during the Yugoslav civil wars (where none existed for many years before), where Croatia had most all input and not Serbia (because Serbia was not even invited).To this day they refuse to take into account Serbia's view. It reminds of when a Byzantine Icon collection came to tour major US museums in USA during the war and no mention was made of Serbia and its icons!
5. USHMM say right there on the web page that more research needs to be done.
You must be kidding me by presenting this blunt little piece of Holocaust denying drivel.
"Between its establishment in 1941 and its evacuation in April 1945, Croat authorities murdered thousands of people at Jasenovac. Among the victims were: between 45,000 and 52,000 Serb residents of the so-called Independent State of Croatia; between 12,000 and 20,000 Jews; between 15,000 and 20,000 Roma (Gypsies); and between 5,000 and 12,000 ethnic Croats and Muslims, who were political and religious opponents of the regime."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Jasenovac.html
"Due to differing views and lack of documentation, estimates for the number of Serbian victims in Croatia range widely, from 25,000 to more than one million. The most reliable figures place the number of Serbs killed by the Ustaša between 330,000 and 390,000, with 45,000 to 52,000 Serbs murdered in Jasenovac."
"It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945."
Never said that Jasenovac was not one of the worst humanitarian crimes in modern history, only that you inflate the numbers to make it worse.
Ironic though with the tragedy of the Serbian people they turn around and commit the very same crimes on others 50 years later.
Freely available on Wikipedia (and a million other places).
It would appear that you are withholding facts when discussing this matter and are attempting to influence readers with disinformation and propaganda.
Killed at Jasenovac
- Josip Broz Tito - 500,000–600,000 (perhaps the most damning of all estimates!)
- Encyclopedia of the Holocaust 600,000
- Simon Wiesenthal's Museum of Tolerance 600,000
- Yad Vashem Center 500k killed, 250k exiled, 200k converted to Catholocism
Killed at Jasenovac according to German military commanders
- 400,000 Serbs (Alexander Löhr)
- 350,000 Serbs (Lothar Rendulic)
- 300,000 (Edmund Glaise von Horstenau)
- 600–700,000 (Ernst Fick)
- 700,000 (Massenbach)
- 750,000 (Hermann Neubacher)
The FULL quote from the US Holocaust Museum:
"As of 2009, USHMM has estimated the Ustaše regime murdered between 66,000 and 99,000 people (mostly Serbs) in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945...... during the period of Ustaše rule, a total of between 330,000 and 390,000 ethnic Serbs and more than 30,000 Croatian Jews were killed either in Croatia or at Auschwitz-Birkenau."
"Determining the number of victims is highly problematic.... As more documents become accessible and more research is conducted into the records of the Ustaša regime, historians and demographers may be able to determine more precise figures than are now available.
Please first admit the genocide in Bosnia's Jasenovac concentration camp that took place during WW2 where 600,000 perished (mostly Serbs).
(factman, 10 July 2015 18:01)
The good thing about this forum is it allows all the Serbs to post all their exaggerations and claims and high five each other and then lay down and cry the cry of the eternal victim. It is the perfect forum for impotents who want to blame everyone else without taking responsibility for their crimes.
The US Holocaust Museum puts the number of deaths at Jasenovic at between 77 and 99 thousand.
I guess it is up to individuals as to which source they believe. Knowing the many other posts of misinformation "factman" claims I think it will not be him.
(Bob, 10 July 2015 08:42)
You have proven yourself to be a true serb, no other ethnic group in the world can go in as the aggressor and come out playing the victim card so well. I have said many times Serbia should change their national anthem to "Why is everyone picking on me"
Face up to your crimes and the whole thing will be history and we can move on.
I’m one of the three I am not a Serb and I start t love this Bobbing game. But I agree that Serbs committed multiple crimes including those in Srebrenica. Besides they now that at least Uastashas are as legal as LGBT I believe we must have one more international court to show the real faces of the Serbs. They also failed to save the Jews during Holocaust. So Serbs must be deported to where they came from i.e. their “mother Russia”. All tools are good for that including having many good Bobs here.
(the actual truth, 10 July 2015 05:32
Not that your discussion is worth venturing into, but I will. YOu claim he misread your post, but you did the same thing. He said the wormen were not set free they were raped, he did not say all women were raped nor do I think any reasonable person would think he meant every one of them was raped. But the rape of these women is well documented so it did happen and you DID try to trivialize it.
You and Peggy speak of time, soldiers were not killing 24 hours a day so there was down time and thousands of soldiers at probably a maximum 3 minutes a pop for Serbs, they could have covered a lot of women.
“the ICJ and ICTY. The European Parliament, which your leaders dream to be part of some day also adopted the resolution. No matter what you say and how you justify it you will not convince anyone that there was no genocide.“
I agree that Cartagena must be destroyed and Serbs dematerialized. But mentioning those pocket organizations does not help us getting rid of the serbs. So I think deportation is the only way out. It was good that Finland barred the Russians to the EP Session but how are we going to persuade Mongolia to do so ? meanwhile the truth is a very subjective thing. I would say that it’s the dominating idea. Otherwise if every 8000 victims were called genocide all the history of the mankind would be history of genocides. But we need here and now to oppress the serbs not letting them raise their heads in the future by imposing them guilt syndrome. The way it was with the Germans after WW2. That’s what unites Muslims and Catholics today.
Let me add this you were justifying RAPE how disgusting of you!!!
(Bilbao, 9 July 2015 21:23)
Dude, are you purposefully being stupid or are you just that dense by design? You're the one who made an outrageous comment before about all the women of Srebrenica being raped, which has absolutely no proof to it. I replied with a comment that is fitting your inappropriate statement which points out how unlikely that scenario could have been. Then you get offended in thinking I'm trivializing the whole thing and call ME disgusting?
Do I have to spell out how hypocritical you are?? Do I have to walk you through the counterargument or are you just going to change the subject and accuse me of trivializing rape because you have no other come back? You don't even know me dude, and you don't even know what I may or may not experienced. You want to make an outlandish statement and then get upset someone threw the accusation back in your face, then YOU'RE the disgusting one, especially if you accuse me of dismissing something that happened to ALL women in that f*cking war by ALL sides by misreading my post.
You either better brush up on your English or you better get your facts checked the next time you make an asinine statement. As if Serbs were the only people who employed rape as a weapon of terror in the 1990s or before. Yeah, real original. You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? It makes that sh!tstorm of a war all the easier for you to comprehend.
We all know who the real savages, rapist and terrorist are in the Balkans are.
(UnikKatil, 9 July 2015 22:26)
No you don't. You're just shouting through your keyboard like a whiny little racist bitch who doesn't know jack about the wars in the 1990s. Nice username. Never seen it before but you're addressing people like you know them. What other aliases do you normally use around here, or are you just one of those angry trolls passing through?
So how long after, if this resolution was adopted, would the US and Western Europe claim to be stopping genocide early in other countries of interest. Syria is the first cab of the ranks and no need for sec council resolutions because all you need to claim is the moral responsibility and voila your corporatist democracy can run rampant. Russia and co ain't that stupid.
Wow, all of them? That's a lot of raping in such a short period of time. And to think all that happened while men and boys were being killed. Such efficient and industrious people these Serbs are. How many thousands of women and young children were released? And all of them were raped? If Serbs were that efficient in their killing and raping, they'd have taken over the entire Balkans.
(the actual truth, 9 July 2015 15:56)
====================================
If Serbs raped that many women when did they have time to actually participate in the war? They must've been too tired to fight.
I think that rape is a monsterous tool of war and all sides have participated in it but Muslims and Croats only call Serbs monsters for doing it. Hypocrites. Anyone who engaged in this should be tried for war crimes and I am all for Serbs being answereable for it but the other sides must also acknowledge their part in it and hunt down theirs as well.
I won't hold my breath.
We all know who the real savages, rapist and terrorist are in the Balkans are
==============================
Yes we do. Take a look at who is terrorizing the world right now, Raping, burning alive, beheading and all that for minor 'crimes' such as eating or drinking during the day on Ramadam or not being Muslim or even the wrong kind of Muslim.
I know that it's not the Serbs doing all that. Yes, it's the Muslims.
Here are your savages who are leaving Bosnia and Kosovo to join ISIL and join in the "festivities".
Why you Serbs justify your crimes others did it so its ok? I did not change my tune you Killed men and Boys and you raped woman and no its not consequence of war, but of your nationalist identity.
And Serbs did use Rape as a tool of fear and intimidation
=====================================
Nobody said it was ok for Serbs to do becaue it was done to them. All we are saying is that justice is being denied to Serb victims who went through the same thing.
Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians have all raped and killed during that war but I haven't seen on from those side condemn them and call them all sorts of names. It is YOU who obviously thinks that it's ok when your side does it but when Serbs do they are monsters.
Anyone doing it is a monster and I certainly do not think it was ok but I really would love to hear you say the same thing. By not saying it you are the one who's condoning your own side doing it.
No matter what you say and whatever your government comes up with to undermine what happened in Srebrenica you are never going to succeed, most people who know some history know that it was the worst massacre after WWII. It was labelled a genocide by the ICJ and ICTY. The European Parliament, which your leaders dream to be part of some day also adopted the resolution.
No matter what you say and how you justify it you will not convince anyone that there was no genocide.
(UnikKatil, 9 July 2015 22:26)
People* like MikeC, Peggy, Ari and the rest believe that they have the same power to control the truth as the power that the monsters of the Serb Bosnian army had in 1995 to slaughter helpless 14 year old boys. That's how delusional they are!
The international community has established beyond reasonable doubt that what happened in Srebrenica was genocide. The ravings of people like MikeC, Peggy, Ari and the rest trying to justify the slaughter of 14 year old boys only serve to shed more light into the depraved thinking of those who are going to spend the rest of their lives in jail for committing that genocide.
* I apologize for calling "people" something which tries to justify the slaughtering of 14 year old boys blindfolded and with hands tied behind their back, but I have to be mindful of the B92 forums rules for the language used.
“to show how alone Russia and Serbia are, in case anybody had doubts!”
****** Outside NATO lonely hearts club band we are not alone. Follow the events from Ufa city.
(rote, 9 July 2015 10:30)
Hey mate, Russia being alone was captured on video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2idKu3A9U at 41:35 in front of the world community. Just because you refuse to open your eyes to see the facts, it's not going to change those facts! Facts have this habit of being very stubborn...
No matter what you say and whatever your government comes up with to undermine what happened in Srebrenica you are never going to succeed, most people who know some history know that it was the worst massacre after WWII. It was labelled a genocide by the ICJ and ICTY. The European Parliament, which your leaders dream to be part of some day also adopted the resolution.
No matter what you say and how you justify it you will not convince anyone that there was no genocide.
I totally agree with you that whoever committed crimes against Serbs or any other ethnic group for that matter should be held accountable and brought before justice, no exceptions, but just by saying many atrocities against Serbs went unpunished does not change what happened in Srebrenica, or minimize what happened there.
Russia might veto the UNSC resolution, whatever but don't fool yourselves believing that most of Europe including every single one of your neighbors, will just forget what happened there. Playing the victim card won't help anymore, forget about it.
We all know who the real savages, rapist and terrorist are in the Balkans are. No matter what you do and regardless of the Russian veto and support the Srebrenica genocide will be of the front page of your colorful criminal resume. It will never stop haunting you.
Ah so now even if it's 1 it's bad. Before, you made it sound like all of them were raped. Once I pointed out your silly argument you change your tune. News flash: rape is a horrible consequence of war. Serbs did it as well as others. You made it sound as if it were a part of the whole Srebrenica crime.
When in my post did I not say around 8000 people were killed? Stay focused if you're going to argue with me, especially if you're going to accuse someone else of having no shame.
(the actual truth, 9 July 2015 19:44)
Why you Serbs justify your crimes others did it so its ok? I did not change my tune you Killed men and Boys and you raped woman and no its not consequence of war, but of your nationalist identity.
And Serbs did use Rape as a tool of fear and intimidation.
Sebrenica will be a something all your future generations have to live with that Serbian cowards killed and raped in Sebrenica for all world to see worst crime since WW2 not a good thing to be measured with.
Naser Oric and his men killed thousands of serbs In a couple of months which is why it went unnoticed. In othe words if you want to get away with mass murder don't kill them in a short period of time as the case was with Srebrenica. Also interesting that neither the murder of 1 million armenisns or Jasenovac is not considered to be genocide. I wonder what qualifies as genocide and who is deciding on the matter.
They did try and they did Rape a lot of woman even Raping 1 woman and there were 1000 of them its enough.
Do you say they did not kill 8000 men and Boys?
Man how you dont feel shame....!
(Bilbao, 9 July 2015 17:38)
Ah so now even if it's 1 it's bad. Before, you made it sound like all of them were raped. Once I pointed out your silly argument you change your tune. News flash: rape is a horrible consequence of war. Serbs did it as well as others. You made it sound as if it were a part of the whole Srebrenica crime.
When in my post did I not say around 8000 people were killed? Stay focused if you're going to argue with me, especially if you're going to accuse someone else of having no shame.
And all of them were raped? If Serbs were that efficient in their killing and raping, they'd have taken over the entire Balkans.
(the actual truth, 9 July 2015 15:56)
They did try and they did Rape a lot of woman even Raping 1 woman and there were 1000 of them its enough.
"Wow, all of them? That's a lot of raping in such a short period of time." You actually relativize this? do you know what is approximate number for rapes carried out by Serb forces? you really need your head screwed on
Serbs disagree with the fabricated narrative of Srebrenica.
The fabricated part which seeks to:
1. cover-up the complicity of other nations
2. cover-up the despicable acts of Bosnian soldiers against Serb civilians
3. Overlook the fact that many were armed combatants seeking to flee (and were ambushed)
(factman, 9 July 2015 14:01)
Sounds like you have become a master in the subject of fabrication!!!
Women were not set free they were RAPED that is worst than death my friend. Boys as litlle as 14 where killed.
(Bilbao, 9 July 2015 14:47)
Wow, all of them? That's a lot of raping in such a short period of time. And to think all that happened while men and boys were being killed. Such efficient and industrious people these Serbs are. How many thousands of women and young children were released? And all of them were raped? If Serbs were that efficient in their killing and raping, they'd have taken over the entire Balkans.
It's strange to criticise China for abstaining, especially as they would have been told that Russia was going to use a veto. Two vetoes is overkill.
(ned taylor, 8 July 2015 22:20)
You can play it that way if you want, but abstaining means they do not want to go on record as supporting it, but do not have strong enough feelings to block it either so they will let the majority decide. Such as with Resolution 1244, in which case China abstained and Russia voted yes so it was carried.
A veto would have sent the message that no we are against it not that we just do not support it.
Big difference, huge difference.
Serbs neutralized a battalion of extremist militants in order to prevent a massacre of human life.
(anode, 9 July 2015 04:03)
A person is neutralised when they are unarmed, face down in the back of a truck with their hands tied behind their backs. They don't need a bullet in the head also. Nor do they need to be thrown in a pit with dozens of other bodies. Nor do they need to be dug up again a few months later and moved to a a new pit. Are you for real?
Bad things happen during wars, horrible things, Naser Oric etc are scum, but what happened in Srebrenica is a whole new level of sick.
If thats the case then tell me why were the women and children set free? You don't even know the definition of the word genocide. Jasenovac and Jadovno, now those were genocide and yet I don't see you nor anyone else say that the croats should be punished for it.
(Daniel, 9 July 2015 14:13)
Women were not set free they were RAPED that is worst than death my friend. Boys as litlle as 14 where killed.
y cleansing an entire town of its population, that is all that it was. The resolution was a resolution on Srebrenica, it was not a resolution the Bosnian war, in the same way the Holocaust deals with only with Nazi crimes against the Jews population of Europe, it does not deal with W2. who knows however, maybe that story is more complicated as well
(Nikolle, 8 July 2015 22:34)
If thats the case then tell me why were the women and children set free? You don't even know the definition of the word genocide. Jasenovac and Jadovno, now those were genocide and yet I don't see you nor anyone else say that the croats should be punished for it.
Serbs disagree with the fabricated narrative of Srebrenica.
The fabricated part which seeks to:
1. cover-up the complicity of other nations
2. cover-up the despicable acts of Bosnian soldiers against Serb civilians
3. Overlook the fact that many were armed combatants seeking to flee (and were ambushed)
There is not a need to hold the discussion any longer of whether Srebrenica was a genocide or a massacre. It is well established the seriousness of the crime and it is labelled as the worst crime committed on European soil since WW2.
It is a time to enact a resolution on shaming the international community for allowing it to happen and then once it did allowing Serbia to move on to Kosovo to begin the same campaign. The western powers and NATO think they have absolved themselves since they orchestrated a 78 bombing campaign. Following Bosnia and then Kosovo, bombing should have ONLY stopped with full and unconditional surrender of Serbia with international forces occupying Belgrade and the rebuilding of Serbia not Kosovo. It should have demilitarized Serbia and placed it under total UN control and spent the last 15 years building a ethnically protected Serbia. That is the only way peace could be assured for the future.
You have a cancer that is overtaking the body, you get rid of the cancer, you don't just let it grow and say you are trying to heal the body.
EVERYONE knew the war criminals were hiding in Serbia under the protection of the Serb govt and forces for almost two decades and yet there was and still is no punishment for those actions.
So the resolutions should be on the shame of the international community not to pat ourselves on the back and say look at us we are condemning them for THEIR actions!
This is the stupidest account of what happened yet. Prevent a massacre by carrying out a massacre itself?
(Nikolle, 9 July 2015 11:14)
You clearly missed the fact that I was lampooning the rhetoric that Serbia was up against. However, the fact that Serbia was also up against terrorism is not disputable. I was unhappy with your crass insensitivity, and was suggesting that you take a better tone.
Now Serbia is begging to join NATO
The Count of Kosovo
Seriously, where do you albanians get all your crap from? Serbia begging to join NATO! Serbia could join HATO tomorrow if it wanted, which I hope it won't. Seems like most albanians at this forum got their history lessons and news from albanian coffeyshops in Tirana and Pristina.
How is the Serb crimes in battle of Srebrenica any worse than what eg. Israel did in Gaza 2014 ? In both events a few thousands were killed, percentage-wise much more in Gaza. In Gaza they were mostly civilians living under a blockade.
The draft was politically motivated, as was Russia's veto. Nothing happens genuinely in the Security Counsel. I am happy that it was vetoed, as there is this putrid fairy tale that Serbs were responsible for everything in the Balkans. Let's not forget first that Tito was a Croat, not a Serb, and he was the dictator that ruled long. Let's not also forget that it was the Croats and the Slovenes who broke away first. Let's not forget all the crimes committed. Well, if you choose to believe in fairly tales, I feel sorry for you.
I wonder why the BBC almost always refers to what happened in Srebrenica as a massacre and not "genocide"? "Srebrenica genocide" is pretty much always quoted. Many prominent people have disputed genocide including Jewish NAZI hunters. Eventually the truth will prevail because through manipulation, "genocide" is mainly accepted in the West, who were heavily involved in the Bosnian war on the side of the Muslims and need justification for their crimes.
Here are some instances of BBC articles referring to the Srebrenica massacre.
"The Serbs neutralized a battalion of extremist militants in order to prevent a massacre of human life. Serbia should be praised for its bravery."
This is the stupidest account of what happened yet. Prevent a massacre by carrying out a massacre itself? ....and, applauded for bravery? What bravery? They murdered 8000+ captured people and then tried to hide their remains in mass graves. what is brave about that? dear me, go see a doctor, tell him/her that you have a conscience missing and see if he/she can prescribe anything for it
(rote, 9 July 2015 10:30)
You don't convince even your self...
Are you convinced that Srebrenica was not a Genocide? The truth!!
( i know that you will not tell the truth, but by the way... )
I will understand if the victims were Albanians ( as much as we are not slavs ) - but Bosnians are slavs...
This is not good for the reconciliation, and i must tell you as much as we have more than 100 -150 years of hate with serbs.
They did the same in the WW1 with Albanians - and Russia 'covered" them...
They did the same thing with Bosnians...
You did the same thing...
To bad...., now it will never end...
But as much as you have your interests...
Are you considering g this Victory??? Shame on you.. This is Russia against the West.. Serbia is been used as weak weapon.
Genocide has happened accept it and move on-or stay where you are and you will be on this position for an other century.
If this is a veto over something more interest such as related to make sense which is geopolitical the Serbia should declare victory saying the veto power has helped the justice win. But not on this please. People been massacred and you declare victory - shame shame shame. You will see the consequences now.you think British will stay as is nothing happen? You think twice.
Good job Russia.
You complete your horrible "creation'. Again!
Now, you made more enemies than before.
And congratulations to Serbia.
Now you are more "guilty" than before.
As much as you live in EU, is not important what Russia think, is important what the Eu country think.
The representatives of EU think unanimously that you did Genocide.
This is important..
Because the rest of the world think that Russia vetoed it because you are the last 'bastion" of Russia in EU.
This does not relieve Serbia from accusations for Genocide.
End of the discussion!
Should we focus on a single event in the Bosnian war to draw a conclusion or see the whole picture? Never mind the thousands of serbs killed leading up to this tragedy. The most important thing is to highlight Serbian warcrimes to justify certain political actions in the balkans and a continuation of an anti Serb agenda. The west and the balkans apparently need to have a scapegoat and someone to blame for everything. Everyone is a heroe against the evil witch.
The UN has been irrelevant since NATO bombed Serbia in 1999. Now Serbia is begging to join NATO. There would be no Russian veto if the British resolution was voted on by NATO countries. It is obvious Serbia is being fitted with training wheels for NATO. All it means is Serbia is no longer required to wear short pants but, is a long way from being given BB's for its toy rifle. However, the Serbian army will be allowed to march at the back end of all NATO parades, provided they have presentable uniforms, and not the ragged and smelly animal skins of the Chetniks.
oh dear certain reading certain comments here, one gets the impression that what some people really mean, is that Srebrencia is a more complicated story than has been portrayed. there nothing complicated about it, approx. 8000+ men, having been captured, were then murdered in 4 days in cold blood by people who really did not have to do it.
(Nikolle, 8 July 2015 22:34)
Sorry that we did not simplify it to the level of NATO rhetoric. Here, let me try: "The Serbs neutralized a battalion of extremist militants in order to prevent a massacre of human life. Serbia should be praised for its bravery." So please forgive us if we aren't all jerks enough to express ourselves that way. And please excuse those of us who, without condoning lethal acts on the part of others, are sickened by NATO's routine practice of backing terrorism in order to further the destruction of innocent life.
"The British draft resolution on Srebrenica has not been adopted by the United Nations Security Council, because Russia vetoed it."
This was needed to show how alone Russia and Serbia are, in case anybody had doubts!
Obviously it does not change the fact the Srebrenica was a genocide; that has already been established beyond reasonable doubt by the international community and unfortunatey for Russia the truth can't be vetoed (except within Russia).
I spit on the representatives of Putin-Russia, Serbia and so-called RS, and hope and expect that good and normal ppl inside serbia and RS will raise their voices against fascism and genocide denial.
Vucic, don't travel to Srebrenica - I spit on you!
(roberto, 8 July 2015 22:13)
==============================
I am sure a lot of people would like to spit on you too.
So if someone doesn't agree with you and your hatred for the Serbs they deserve to be spat on. You are so mature and wise (Sarcasm off).
BTW I am so happy to see you all bent out of shape over this. Suffer.
It would have been better if my country had been persuaded to withdraw the resolution, but they cannot be surprised that Russia vetoed it,
===========================================
Exactly, so why did they go ahead with it? Political reason, that's why. They want history to show that justice "was not done" because of big bad Russia. This is all political games by the west and silly Albanians and Muslims think that this is being done to honour their dead.
That's precisely why it was right to veto this ridiculous resolution. Justice was not going to be done because only one side is being portrayed as victim in this war. Just as many Serbs were killed around that area but because it wasn't done in one day it's not importnat. The fact that they were civilians who were butchered over some time is irrelevant and being Serbs just makes it even more irrelevant. We have to have good guys and bad guys to show the world how the US is always on the side of "good guys".
Thank God Serbia is not alone in this one.
In a way Serbia is making the same mistake Turkey has made. Even after 100 years Armenian Genocide is still remembered. The hammer of justice will come back from time to time to hit Serbs on the head and remind them of crimes they committed.
(Avni, 8 July 2015 20:13)
==============================
There is absolutely no comparrison between the two. Stop being a drama queen.
Perhaps B92 could consider registering names so duplications can't happen?
(Bob, 8 July 2015 21:10
Silly boy, you choose a screen name as common as Bob and you want exclusitivity? That would be like the one named sam, which is my actual name, but I do not use it. I like to use a variety of monikers to support my statements which I feel are more important than who says them.
These are all anonymous posts so you can be the new King of Europe for what it matters.
Serbia did not win in this case. I wonder how many groups and parliaments will rush to create a Srebrenica Resolution as a reaction to today's events. I agree though that there is no difference to Russia's veto and the US, blind support for Israel.
But today's action has not and will not change anyone's perception of what Serbia's role was in not only Srebrenica but the entire break up of Yugoslavia and the many many senseless deaths of innocent people.
China's abstain was not surprising, and is not a support for Serbia, as the only support came from Russia. If you remember one of the famous resolutions (1244) was passed with a China abstain, when Russia voted yes instead of no.
Vucic's attendance at Srebrenica will be a disaster I am afraid, as with his speeches, I do not think he will be received well.
What I am curious about is how this will play out should Russia propose a special court to be set up by the UNSC over the KLA war crimes. A line has been drawn in the sand and there is not a way the US, Britain and France cannot support a Russian resolution on the matter. It would be more beneficial for the EU to proceed with its own court and keep it out of the UNSC.
To Edwin and Roberto,you have never lived in a war zone of Bosnia,let alone been on holidays over their.When you live and talk to people that have lost family in Bosnian war like ,Serbs,Croats,Bosnian Muslims,Bosnian Jews,Or 7 day ventests( subotari).You will see that 8000 dead are all side people killed over 4 year's. I am talking about Bosnian Muslim's, Bosnian Serb's, Bosnian Subotari.
Shame that 20+ years have gone by and the circus still continues.It is not a game ,it was a dark decade the 90s to live in Yugoslavia. Unless you idiot's live in the country and mixed with different race of people .You won't talk sh-t and remember all people that died in Bosnia.
@ ??? who said: "Assuming you are a white, straight boy, would you be cool if that court recognized you as a black lesbian girl? Are you just gonna sit there and take it knowing it is not true? "
let me tell you smth as I have lived a long life in the Balkans and am still standing. The only justice balkan people will recognize, is a decision in their favor. Until then, justice is never done.
Russia does not do things for free, I wonder what our politicians promised for the veto vote....
What's to rejoice here? The fact that "genocide" is even being discussed would be enough to put anyone to shame. Leave the past behind, build bridges, foster new friendships, and treat them just as such: friendships. Srebrenica is a stain in the history of Serbia, and should be looked upon as a reminder of what should never happen again.
I'm so glad and proud that our Samantha Power, who was actually in the midst of the Bosnian genocide during the war, stood strong and didn't cave in to the fascists. Better to have the resolution vetoed by Putin-Russia than to water it down. I spit on the representatives of Putin-Russia, Serbia and so-called RS, and hope and expect that good and normal ppl inside serbia and RS will raise their voices against fascism and genocide denial.
Vucic, don't travel to Srebrenica - I spit on you!
where are these fascists you speak of? are you seeing things again? the doctor told you to stay on your medication otherwise you'd risk hallucination and start hitting ppl.
It would have been better if my country had been persuaded to withdraw the resolution, but they cannot be surprised that Russia vetoed it, any more than I am when the US vetoes any resolution that is critical of Israel. Five members hold a veto and from time to time they will use it, often to support a political ally or to stick two fingers up at non-friendly countries, which for Russia is currently a long list. It's rare that the content of the resolution makes much difference in these cases. It's strange to criticise China for abstaining, especially as they would have been told that Russia was going to use a veto. Two vetoes is overkill.
We all can agree that UN is a big joke regardless of what they decided. Dutch tulips had weapons to shoot, why aren't muslims blaming them. We all know that all those people there and Vukovar were sacrificed to make serbs look like bad guys and to get international support for anti-serbian crusade. Media of course failed to mention attacks against Serbian vilians prior to this events. There were plenty of muslims and croats who were on the nazi dide, many were still alive in those days. Serbia behaved like an abused child, uusually people understand those who are traumatized.
Srebrenica is a lie built by West. Around the town horrible actions happened, from both sides, but this is the war. Srebrenica looks like Racak, a false flag.
Russia did was what right: Russia didn't allow the lie to win.
oh dear certain reading certain comments here, one gets the impression that what some people really mean, is that Srebrencia is a more complicated story than has been portrayed. there nothing complicated about it, approx. 8000+ men, having been captured, were then murdered in 4 days in cold blood by people who really did not have to do it. it is a war crime, it is an attempt at gonocide, by cleansing an entire town of its population, that is all that it was. The resolution was a resolution on Srebrenica, it was not a resolution the Bosnian war, in the same way the Holocaust deals with only with Nazi crimes against the Jews population of Europe, it does not deal with W2. who knows however, maybe that story is more complicated as well
I wonder if the dead from Srebrenica even care about this political debate and I also wonder why the living choose to focus on the past when their present life is the only they thing they have the power to change for the better. This is another example of politicians focusing the attention away from the things that are important.
In a way Serbia is making the same mistake Turkey has made. Even after 100 years Armenian Genocide is still remembered. The hammer of justice will come back from time to time to hit Serbs on the head and remind them of crimes they committed.
I dont understand either how some of you think this option will be better for reconcile? This will grow Bosnia and Serbia away from each other further apart. This has nothing to do with reconcaliaton but about pure denial. You think bosniaks will celebrate this beacuse now you guys can reconcile, right? Ive heard alot of retard talls from politicians from around the world but serbian politician takes the prize.
China? They didnt even veto it. Theh knew majority would vote yes and yet they abstained. That says alot of what China thinks. Russia only veto it beacuse Serbia is only ally in Europe and Russia need allies at this point.
I wonder if the dead from Srebrenica even care about this political debate and I also wonder why the living choose to focus on the past when their present life is the only they thing they have the power to change for the better. This is another example of politicians focusing the attention away from the things that are important.
Muslim forces? There were no muslim forces im Bosnia except mujahideen. There was bosnian forces tho which had christians and muslims in it unlike VRS or HVO.
It is funny how you guys talk like bosnian forces commit same crimes as serbian one but think about this. If they did commit same crimes why were all catholics and mosques burned down in serbian controlled territory? If bosnian forces again did commit same crimes why are catholic and orthodoxs churches still standing without even being touched? Why cant serbs present factual evidence of a planned massacere against serbs? Why cant they show where those 3500 serb bodies who allegedly were massacered? Who snipered those kids in Sarajevo which serb kids were also killed by bullets from the mountains? Who created the Foca rape camp? Or those concentration camps in north Bosnia? Lets not bullshit here, we both know who did it.
Now come with actual evidence of bosnian forces as a group committing atrocities against serbs. I can acknowledge that there might have been some atrocities during operation oluja but that was individuals and some have been sentenced in Haag.
The evidence are overwhelming when it comes to who was most agressive towards civilians. It is like you tried to outshine Hitler himself.
It saddens me to see my government (I'm English) involving itself with matters that do not concern it, presumably to kowtow to the British Muslim community. The general attitude of the West (Serbia bad, Croatia, Bosnia, Albania good) shows sickening manipulation.
Horrible comparison. Do you think they were like "lets just call it genocide"...no they collected evidence and proof which concluded that a genocide did take place.
Srebrenica massacre has been recognized as genocide by the court, move on.
(boom, 8 July 2015 18:21)
Assuming you are a white, straight boy, would you be cool if that court recognized you as a black lesbian girl? Are you just gonna sit there and take it knowing it is not true?
I am not a Russophile. Especially when I compare myself to many Serbs I know. But that said, I know a friend when I see one. And Russia is a friend of Serbia's. Doesn't ask for much in return-don't join NATO, don't join the sanctions etc. And in return, Russia gives Serbia international support in times of political aggression such as this.
Today lines have been drawn once again between the civilized world and genocidal, tyrannical, human rights violators. We have the dark example of the Serbs to thank for. It was not important at all wether the resolution passed or not - to expect Russia to vote on an issue of human dignity was as asking the bear to turn vegetarian. The importance of the vote lay in the message of remembrance to never again allow genocide and ethnic cleansing on European soil.
Yet, Serbia and Serbs in general failed to win the day. They failed to show the civilized world that they have changed, learned from their past mistakes. 20 years after Srebrenica they are lead by the same lunatics, paramilitaries, war-mongers, with a psychotic grave digger as the head of state! Shame, shame, shame. You have lost what little dignity you had left and forsaken your longterm national interest for self-satisfying pride and inat. You have killed those victims once again. Shame, shame, shame!
Serbia is currently the only state from the ex Yugoslav territories which has open issues with Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro.
(XD, 8 July 2015 17:25)
Oh yea? List all these open issues with all these countries (and Serbias southern province)
Thank you Russia. Without a level playing field, laying down condemnations is meaningless. A token line about atrocities on all sides doesn't help much when the discussion is being framed in a particular direction, and the countries known for creating and inflaming conflicts are being let off the hook.
All of this will be forgotten in two weeks and reconciliation can continue slowly. If the resolution had passed, reconciliation would be set back 10 years. Thank God this irresponsible act was stopped. Britain still thinks it has the same power as the 90s.
Russia does not give a dam about us, it has no friends , only interests.
It remains to be seen what they got in exchange form our corrupt government to use their veto. Our government is stuck in ideological fights instead of being pragmatic and moving on to the economic front. Srebrenica massacre has been recognized as genocide by the court, move on.
During the debate, the British representative said that the draft "does not accuse the Serb people, because crimes were committed by all sides and there have been victims on all sides."
Yes but the resolution fixates on one event of the entire civil war, pushes for a particular way of labeling the event, makes denying what said event was labelled as as a crime, and has been clumsily pushed through by one country in time to commemorate an anniversary in a way that makes it look more like a marketing gimmick than an actual call for peace and reconciliation. This entire circus, played by a cast of fools from numerous countries and territories, did nothing beyond demonstrating how politicians seek personal gain off the misery of others. That Russia and China appeared to be the most sane actors in this mess is absolutely nothing to feel good about.
And the gap is getting wider between Russia and the West. On the other hand Serbia has nothing to pride itself. It still remains a nation in denial about its past and extremely delusional about its future. Serbia is currently the only state from the ex Yugoslav territories which has open issues with Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro. Tremendous amount of work remains to be done by Serbia to correct the past wrong doings and establish a clear peaceful path. Unfortunately, Serbia with its current delusional leadership is unwilling to set goals which will enable her to make amends with its immediate neighbors and set a peaceful path for the future generations. It was said countless of times that one cannot be part of the European family with unresolved conflicts. Then why is Serbia trying to join EU when it has open issues with practically all of its members.
This is no surprise. Another dark day in the Balkans. And as always, Russia again shows it doesn't belong in the Security Council or on any other relevant international governing body.
I never thought that I would say this, but well done Russia! The British draft resulotion was wrong and out of place. The tragedy of Sebrenica cannot be considered in isolation and must be put in context with the preceeding atrocities carried out against the Serb population by the muslim forces. The draft resolution failed to acknowledge this and was a thinly veiled attack against the Serbs. It was also probably submitted on behalf of Germany in line with the latter's hate campaign against Serbia.
During the debate, the British representative said that the draft "does not accuse the Serb people, because crimes were committed by all sides and there have been victims on all sides."
Yes but the resolution fixates on one event of the entire civil war, pushes for a particular way of labeling the event, makes denying what said event was labelled as as a crime, and has been clumsily pushed through by one country in time to commemorate an anniversary in a way that makes it look more like a marketing gimmick than an actual call for peace and reconciliation. This entire circus, played by a cast of fools from numerous countries and territories, did nothing beyond demonstrating how politicians seek personal gain off the misery of others. That Russia and China appeared to be the most sane actors in this mess is absolutely nothing to feel good about.
I never thought that I would say this, but well done Russia! The British draft resulotion was wrong and out of place. The tragedy of Sebrenica cannot be considered in isolation and must be put in context with the preceeding atrocities carried out against the Serb population by the muslim forces. The draft resolution failed to acknowledge this and was a thinly veiled attack against the Serbs. It was also probably submitted on behalf of Germany in line with the latter's hate campaign against Serbia.
I am not a Russophile. Especially when I compare myself to many Serbs I know. But that said, I know a friend when I see one. And Russia is a friend of Serbia's. Doesn't ask for much in return-don't join NATO, don't join the sanctions etc. And in return, Russia gives Serbia international support in times of political aggression such as this.
In a way Serbia is making the same mistake Turkey has made. Even after 100 years Armenian Genocide is still remembered. The hammer of justice will come back from time to time to hit Serbs on the head and remind them of crimes they committed.
Today lines have been drawn once again between the civilized world and genocidal, tyrannical, human rights violators. We have the dark example of the Serbs to thank for. It was not important at all wether the resolution passed or not - to expect Russia to vote on an issue of human dignity was as asking the bear to turn vegetarian. The importance of the vote lay in the message of remembrance to never again allow genocide and ethnic cleansing on European soil.
Yet, Serbia and Serbs in general failed to win the day. They failed to show the civilized world that they have changed, learned from their past mistakes. 20 years after Srebrenica they are lead by the same lunatics, paramilitaries, war-mongers, with a psychotic grave digger as the head of state! Shame, shame, shame. You have lost what little dignity you had left and forsaken your longterm national interest for self-satisfying pride and inat. You have killed those victims once again. Shame, shame, shame!
And the gap is getting wider between Russia and the West. On the other hand Serbia has nothing to pride itself. It still remains a nation in denial about its past and extremely delusional about its future. Serbia is currently the only state from the ex Yugoslav territories which has open issues with Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro. Tremendous amount of work remains to be done by Serbia to correct the past wrong doings and establish a clear peaceful path. Unfortunately, Serbia with its current delusional leadership is unwilling to set goals which will enable her to make amends with its immediate neighbors and set a peaceful path for the future generations. It was said countless of times that one cannot be part of the European family with unresolved conflicts. Then why is Serbia trying to join EU when it has open issues with practically all of its members.
Thank you Russia. Without a level playing field, laying down condemnations is meaningless. A token line about atrocities on all sides doesn't help much when the discussion is being framed in a particular direction, and the countries known for creating and inflaming conflicts are being let off the hook.
This is no surprise. Another dark day in the Balkans. And as always, Russia again shows it doesn't belong in the Security Council or on any other relevant international governing body.
It saddens me to see my government (I'm English) involving itself with matters that do not concern it, presumably to kowtow to the British Muslim community. The general attitude of the West (Serbia bad, Croatia, Bosnia, Albania good) shows sickening manipulation.
Srebrenica is a lie built by West. Around the town horrible actions happened, from both sides, but this is the war. Srebrenica looks like Racak, a false flag.
Russia did was what right: Russia didn't allow the lie to win.
All of this will be forgotten in two weeks and reconciliation can continue slowly. If the resolution had passed, reconciliation would be set back 10 years. Thank God this irresponsible act was stopped. Britain still thinks it has the same power as the 90s.
Russia does not give a dam about us, it has no friends , only interests.
It remains to be seen what they got in exchange form our corrupt government to use their veto. Our government is stuck in ideological fights instead of being pragmatic and moving on to the economic front. Srebrenica massacre has been recognized as genocide by the court, move on.
Muslim forces? There were no muslim forces im Bosnia except mujahideen. There was bosnian forces tho which had christians and muslims in it unlike VRS or HVO.
It is funny how you guys talk like bosnian forces commit same crimes as serbian one but think about this. If they did commit same crimes why were all catholics and mosques burned down in serbian controlled territory? If bosnian forces again did commit same crimes why are catholic and orthodoxs churches still standing without even being touched? Why cant serbs present factual evidence of a planned massacere against serbs? Why cant they show where those 3500 serb bodies who allegedly were massacered? Who snipered those kids in Sarajevo which serb kids were also killed by bullets from the mountains? Who created the Foca rape camp? Or those concentration camps in north Bosnia? Lets not bullshit here, we both know who did it.
Now come with actual evidence of bosnian forces as a group committing atrocities against serbs. I can acknowledge that there might have been some atrocities during operation oluja but that was individuals and some have been sentenced in Haag.
The evidence are overwhelming when it comes to who was most agressive towards civilians. It is like you tried to outshine Hitler himself.
It would have been better if my country had been persuaded to withdraw the resolution, but they cannot be surprised that Russia vetoed it, any more than I am when the US vetoes any resolution that is critical of Israel. Five members hold a veto and from time to time they will use it, often to support a political ally or to stick two fingers up at non-friendly countries, which for Russia is currently a long list. It's rare that the content of the resolution makes much difference in these cases. It's strange to criticise China for abstaining, especially as they would have been told that Russia was going to use a veto. Two vetoes is overkill.
Serbia is currently the only state from the ex Yugoslav territories which has open issues with Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro.
(XD, 8 July 2015 17:25)
Oh yea? List all these open issues with all these countries (and Serbias southern province)
Srebrenica massacre has been recognized as genocide by the court, move on.
(boom, 8 July 2015 18:21)
Assuming you are a white, straight boy, would you be cool if that court recognized you as a black lesbian girl? Are you just gonna sit there and take it knowing it is not true?
China? They didnt even veto it. Theh knew majority would vote yes and yet they abstained. That says alot of what China thinks. Russia only veto it beacuse Serbia is only ally in Europe and Russia need allies at this point.
I dont understand either how some of you think this option will be better for reconcile? This will grow Bosnia and Serbia away from each other further apart. This has nothing to do with reconcaliaton but about pure denial. You think bosniaks will celebrate this beacuse now you guys can reconcile, right? Ive heard alot of retard talls from politicians from around the world but serbian politician takes the prize.
oh dear certain reading certain comments here, one gets the impression that what some people really mean, is that Srebrencia is a more complicated story than has been portrayed. there nothing complicated about it, approx. 8000+ men, having been captured, were then murdered in 4 days in cold blood by people who really did not have to do it. it is a war crime, it is an attempt at gonocide, by cleansing an entire town of its population, that is all that it was. The resolution was a resolution on Srebrenica, it was not a resolution the Bosnian war, in the same way the Holocaust deals with only with Nazi crimes against the Jews population of Europe, it does not deal with W2. who knows however, maybe that story is more complicated as well
Horrible comparison. Do you think they were like "lets just call it genocide"...no they collected evidence and proof which concluded that a genocide did take place.
We all can agree that UN is a big joke regardless of what they decided. Dutch tulips had weapons to shoot, why aren't muslims blaming them. We all know that all those people there and Vukovar were sacrificed to make serbs look like bad guys and to get international support for anti-serbian crusade. Media of course failed to mention attacks against Serbian vilians prior to this events. There were plenty of muslims and croats who were on the nazi dide, many were still alive in those days. Serbia behaved like an abused child, uusually people understand those who are traumatized.
What's to rejoice here? The fact that "genocide" is even being discussed would be enough to put anyone to shame. Leave the past behind, build bridges, foster new friendships, and treat them just as such: friendships. Srebrenica is a stain in the history of Serbia, and should be looked upon as a reminder of what should never happen again.
I'm so glad and proud that our Samantha Power, who was actually in the midst of the Bosnian genocide during the war, stood strong and didn't cave in to the fascists. Better to have the resolution vetoed by Putin-Russia than to water it down. I spit on the representatives of Putin-Russia, Serbia and so-called RS, and hope and expect that good and normal ppl inside serbia and RS will raise their voices against fascism and genocide denial.
Vucic, don't travel to Srebrenica - I spit on you!
where are these fascists you speak of? are you seeing things again? the doctor told you to stay on your medication otherwise you'd risk hallucination and start hitting ppl.
Good job Russia.
You complete your horrible "creation'. Again!
Now, you made more enemies than before.
And congratulations to Serbia.
Now you are more "guilty" than before.
As much as you live in EU, is not important what Russia think, is important what the Eu country think.
The representatives of EU think unanimously that you did Genocide.
This is important..
Because the rest of the world think that Russia vetoed it because you are the last 'bastion" of Russia in EU.
This does not relieve Serbia from accusations for Genocide.
End of the discussion!
I spit on the representatives of Putin-Russia, Serbia and so-called RS, and hope and expect that good and normal ppl inside serbia and RS will raise their voices against fascism and genocide denial.
Vucic, don't travel to Srebrenica - I spit on you!
(roberto, 8 July 2015 22:13)
==============================
I am sure a lot of people would like to spit on you too.
So if someone doesn't agree with you and your hatred for the Serbs they deserve to be spat on. You are so mature and wise (Sarcasm off).
BTW I am so happy to see you all bent out of shape over this. Suffer.
I wonder why the BBC almost always refers to what happened in Srebrenica as a massacre and not "genocide"? "Srebrenica genocide" is pretty much always quoted. Many prominent people have disputed genocide including Jewish NAZI hunters. Eventually the truth will prevail because through manipulation, "genocide" is mainly accepted in the West, who were heavily involved in the Bosnian war on the side of the Muslims and need justification for their crimes.
Here are some instances of BBC articles referring to the Srebrenica massacre.
I wonder if the dead from Srebrenica even care about this political debate and I also wonder why the living choose to focus on the past when their present life is the only they thing they have the power to change for the better. This is another example of politicians focusing the attention away from the things that are important.
It would have been better if my country had been persuaded to withdraw the resolution, but they cannot be surprised that Russia vetoed it,
===========================================
Exactly, so why did they go ahead with it? Political reason, that's why. They want history to show that justice "was not done" because of big bad Russia. This is all political games by the west and silly Albanians and Muslims think that this is being done to honour their dead.
That's precisely why it was right to veto this ridiculous resolution. Justice was not going to be done because only one side is being portrayed as victim in this war. Just as many Serbs were killed around that area but because it wasn't done in one day it's not importnat. The fact that they were civilians who were butchered over some time is irrelevant and being Serbs just makes it even more irrelevant. We have to have good guys and bad guys to show the world how the US is always on the side of "good guys".
Thank God Serbia is not alone in this one.
Should we focus on a single event in the Bosnian war to draw a conclusion or see the whole picture? Never mind the thousands of serbs killed leading up to this tragedy. The most important thing is to highlight Serbian warcrimes to justify certain political actions in the balkans and a continuation of an anti Serb agenda. The west and the balkans apparently need to have a scapegoat and someone to blame for everything. Everyone is a heroe against the evil witch.
(rote, 9 July 2015 10:30)
You don't convince even your self...
Are you convinced that Srebrenica was not a Genocide? The truth!!
( i know that you will not tell the truth, but by the way... )
I will understand if the victims were Albanians ( as much as we are not slavs ) - but Bosnians are slavs...
This is not good for the reconciliation, and i must tell you as much as we have more than 100 -150 years of hate with serbs.
They did the same in the WW1 with Albanians - and Russia 'covered" them...
They did the same thing with Bosnians...
You did the same thing...
To bad...., now it will never end...
But as much as you have your interests...
I wonder if the dead from Srebrenica even care about this political debate and I also wonder why the living choose to focus on the past when their present life is the only they thing they have the power to change for the better. This is another example of politicians focusing the attention away from the things that are important.
In a way Serbia is making the same mistake Turkey has made. Even after 100 years Armenian Genocide is still remembered. The hammer of justice will come back from time to time to hit Serbs on the head and remind them of crimes they committed.
(Avni, 8 July 2015 20:13)
==============================
There is absolutely no comparrison between the two. Stop being a drama queen.
oh dear certain reading certain comments here, one gets the impression that what some people really mean, is that Srebrencia is a more complicated story than has been portrayed. there nothing complicated about it, approx. 8000+ men, having been captured, were then murdered in 4 days in cold blood by people who really did not have to do it.
(Nikolle, 8 July 2015 22:34)
Sorry that we did not simplify it to the level of NATO rhetoric. Here, let me try: "The Serbs neutralized a battalion of extremist militants in order to prevent a massacre of human life. Serbia should be praised for its bravery." So please forgive us if we aren't all jerks enough to express ourselves that way. And please excuse those of us who, without condoning lethal acts on the part of others, are sickened by NATO's routine practice of backing terrorism in order to further the destruction of innocent life.
"The Serbs neutralized a battalion of extremist militants in order to prevent a massacre of human life. Serbia should be praised for its bravery."
This is the stupidest account of what happened yet. Prevent a massacre by carrying out a massacre itself? ....and, applauded for bravery? What bravery? They murdered 8000+ captured people and then tried to hide their remains in mass graves. what is brave about that? dear me, go see a doctor, tell him/her that you have a conscience missing and see if he/she can prescribe anything for it
Now Serbia is begging to join NATO
The Count of Kosovo
Seriously, where do you albanians get all your crap from? Serbia begging to join NATO! Serbia could join HATO tomorrow if it wanted, which I hope it won't. Seems like most albanians at this forum got their history lessons and news from albanian coffeyshops in Tirana and Pristina.
No matter what you say and whatever your government comes up with to undermine what happened in Srebrenica you are never going to succeed, most people who know some history know that it was the worst massacre after WWII. It was labelled a genocide by the ICJ and ICTY. The European Parliament, which your leaders dream to be part of some day also adopted the resolution.
No matter what you say and how you justify it you will not convince anyone that there was no genocide.
I totally agree with you that whoever committed crimes against Serbs or any other ethnic group for that matter should be held accountable and brought before justice, no exceptions, but just by saying many atrocities against Serbs went unpunished does not change what happened in Srebrenica, or minimize what happened there.
Russia might veto the UNSC resolution, whatever but don't fool yourselves believing that most of Europe including every single one of your neighbors, will just forget what happened there. Playing the victim card won't help anymore, forget about it.
We all know who the real savages, rapist and terrorist are in the Balkans are. No matter what you do and regardless of the Russian veto and support the Srebrenica genocide will be of the front page of your colorful criminal resume. It will never stop haunting you.
To Edwin and Roberto,you have never lived in a war zone of Bosnia,let alone been on holidays over their.When you live and talk to people that have lost family in Bosnian war like ,Serbs,Croats,Bosnian Muslims,Bosnian Jews,Or 7 day ventests( subotari).You will see that 8000 dead are all side people killed over 4 year's. I am talking about Bosnian Muslim's, Bosnian Serb's, Bosnian Subotari.
Shame that 20+ years have gone by and the circus still continues.It is not a game ,it was a dark decade the 90s to live in Yugoslavia. Unless you idiot's live in the country and mixed with different race of people .You won't talk sh-t and remember all people that died in Bosnia.
Are you considering g this Victory??? Shame on you.. This is Russia against the West.. Serbia is been used as weak weapon.
Genocide has happened accept it and move on-or stay where you are and you will be on this position for an other century.
If this is a veto over something more interest such as related to make sense which is geopolitical the Serbia should declare victory saying the veto power has helped the justice win. But not on this please. People been massacred and you declare victory - shame shame shame. You will see the consequences now.you think British will stay as is nothing happen? You think twice.
Serbs disagree with the fabricated narrative of Srebrenica.
The fabricated part which seeks to:
1. cover-up the complicity of other nations
2. cover-up the despicable acts of Bosnian soldiers against Serb civilians
3. Overlook the fact that many were armed combatants seeking to flee (and were ambushed)
(Bob, 10 July 2015 08:42)
You have proven yourself to be a true serb, no other ethnic group in the world can go in as the aggressor and come out playing the victim card so well. I have said many times Serbia should change their national anthem to "Why is everyone picking on me"
Face up to your crimes and the whole thing will be history and we can move on.
Perhaps B92 could consider registering names so duplications can't happen?
(Bob, 8 July 2015 21:10
Silly boy, you choose a screen name as common as Bob and you want exclusitivity? That would be like the one named sam, which is my actual name, but I do not use it. I like to use a variety of monikers to support my statements which I feel are more important than who says them.
These are all anonymous posts so you can be the new King of Europe for what it matters.
"The British draft resolution on Srebrenica has not been adopted by the United Nations Security Council, because Russia vetoed it."
This was needed to show how alone Russia and Serbia are, in case anybody had doubts!
Obviously it does not change the fact the Srebrenica was a genocide; that has already been established beyond reasonable doubt by the international community and unfortunatey for Russia the truth can't be vetoed (except within Russia).
The draft was politically motivated, as was Russia's veto. Nothing happens genuinely in the Security Counsel. I am happy that it was vetoed, as there is this putrid fairy tale that Serbs were responsible for everything in the Balkans. Let's not forget first that Tito was a Croat, not a Serb, and he was the dictator that ruled long. Let's not also forget that it was the Croats and the Slovenes who broke away first. Let's not forget all the crimes committed. Well, if you choose to believe in fairly tales, I feel sorry for you.
How is the Serb crimes in battle of Srebrenica any worse than what eg. Israel did in Gaza 2014 ? In both events a few thousands were killed, percentage-wise much more in Gaza. In Gaza they were mostly civilians living under a blockade.
This is the stupidest account of what happened yet. Prevent a massacre by carrying out a massacre itself?
(Nikolle, 9 July 2015 11:14)
You clearly missed the fact that I was lampooning the rhetoric that Serbia was up against. However, the fact that Serbia was also up against terrorism is not disputable. I was unhappy with your crass insensitivity, and was suggesting that you take a better tone.
y cleansing an entire town of its population, that is all that it was. The resolution was a resolution on Srebrenica, it was not a resolution the Bosnian war, in the same way the Holocaust deals with only with Nazi crimes against the Jews population of Europe, it does not deal with W2. who knows however, maybe that story is more complicated as well
(Nikolle, 8 July 2015 22:34)
If thats the case then tell me why were the women and children set free? You don't even know the definition of the word genocide. Jasenovac and Jadovno, now those were genocide and yet I don't see you nor anyone else say that the croats should be punished for it.
Serbs disagree with the fabricated narrative of Srebrenica.
The fabricated part which seeks to:
1. cover-up the complicity of other nations
2. cover-up the despicable acts of Bosnian soldiers against Serb civilians
3. Overlook the fact that many were armed combatants seeking to flee (and were ambushed)
(factman, 9 July 2015 14:01)
Sounds like you have become a master in the subject of fabrication!!!
And all of them were raped? If Serbs were that efficient in their killing and raping, they'd have taken over the entire Balkans.
(the actual truth, 9 July 2015 15:56)
They did try and they did Rape a lot of woman even Raping 1 woman and there were 1000 of them its enough.
No matter what you say and whatever your government comes up with to undermine what happened in Srebrenica you are never going to succeed, most people who know some history know that it was the worst massacre after WWII. It was labelled a genocide by the ICJ and ICTY. The European Parliament, which your leaders dream to be part of some day also adopted the resolution.
No matter what you say and how you justify it you will not convince anyone that there was no genocide.
(UnikKatil, 9 July 2015 22:26)
People* like MikeC, Peggy, Ari and the rest believe that they have the same power to control the truth as the power that the monsters of the Serb Bosnian army had in 1995 to slaughter helpless 14 year old boys. That's how delusional they are!
The international community has established beyond reasonable doubt that what happened in Srebrenica was genocide. The ravings of people like MikeC, Peggy, Ari and the rest trying to justify the slaughter of 14 year old boys only serve to shed more light into the depraved thinking of those who are going to spend the rest of their lives in jail for committing that genocide.
* I apologize for calling "people" something which tries to justify the slaughtering of 14 year old boys blindfolded and with hands tied behind their back, but I have to be mindful of the B92 forums rules for the language used.
Serbia did not win in this case. I wonder how many groups and parliaments will rush to create a Srebrenica Resolution as a reaction to today's events. I agree though that there is no difference to Russia's veto and the US, blind support for Israel.
But today's action has not and will not change anyone's perception of what Serbia's role was in not only Srebrenica but the entire break up of Yugoslavia and the many many senseless deaths of innocent people.
China's abstain was not surprising, and is not a support for Serbia, as the only support came from Russia. If you remember one of the famous resolutions (1244) was passed with a China abstain, when Russia voted yes instead of no.
Vucic's attendance at Srebrenica will be a disaster I am afraid, as with his speeches, I do not think he will be received well.
What I am curious about is how this will play out should Russia propose a special court to be set up by the UNSC over the KLA war crimes. A line has been drawn in the sand and there is not a way the US, Britain and France cannot support a Russian resolution on the matter. It would be more beneficial for the EU to proceed with its own court and keep it out of the UNSC.
If thats the case then tell me why were the women and children set free? You don't even know the definition of the word genocide. Jasenovac and Jadovno, now those were genocide and yet I don't see you nor anyone else say that the croats should be punished for it.
(Daniel, 9 July 2015 14:13)
Women were not set free they were RAPED that is worst than death my friend. Boys as litlle as 14 where killed.
Women were not set free they were RAPED that is worst than death my friend. Boys as litlle as 14 where killed.
(Bilbao, 9 July 2015 14:47)
Wow, all of them? That's a lot of raping in such a short period of time. And to think all that happened while men and boys were being killed. Such efficient and industrious people these Serbs are. How many thousands of women and young children were released? And all of them were raped? If Serbs were that efficient in their killing and raping, they'd have taken over the entire Balkans.
Naser Oric and his men killed thousands of serbs In a couple of months which is why it went unnoticed. In othe words if you want to get away with mass murder don't kill them in a short period of time as the case was with Srebrenica. Also interesting that neither the murder of 1 million armenisns or Jasenovac is not considered to be genocide. I wonder what qualifies as genocide and who is deciding on the matter.
“to show how alone Russia and Serbia are, in case anybody had doubts!”
****** Outside NATO lonely hearts club band we are not alone. Follow the events from Ufa city.
(rote, 9 July 2015 10:30)
Hey mate, Russia being alone was captured on video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2idKu3A9U at 41:35 in front of the world community. Just because you refuse to open your eyes to see the facts, it's not going to change those facts! Facts have this habit of being very stubborn...
Serbs neutralized a battalion of extremist militants in order to prevent a massacre of human life.
(anode, 9 July 2015 04:03)
A person is neutralised when they are unarmed, face down in the back of a truck with their hands tied behind their backs. They don't need a bullet in the head also. Nor do they need to be thrown in a pit with dozens of other bodies. Nor do they need to be dug up again a few months later and moved to a a new pit. Are you for real?
Bad things happen during wars, horrible things, Naser Oric etc are scum, but what happened in Srebrenica is a whole new level of sick.
It's strange to criticise China for abstaining, especially as they would have been told that Russia was going to use a veto. Two vetoes is overkill.
(ned taylor, 8 July 2015 22:20)
You can play it that way if you want, but abstaining means they do not want to go on record as supporting it, but do not have strong enough feelings to block it either so they will let the majority decide. Such as with Resolution 1244, in which case China abstained and Russia voted yes so it was carried.
A veto would have sent the message that no we are against it not that we just do not support it.
Big difference, huge difference.
"Wow, all of them? That's a lot of raping in such a short period of time." You actually relativize this? do you know what is approximate number for rapes carried out by Serb forces? you really need your head screwed on
Ah so now even if it's 1 it's bad. Before, you made it sound like all of them were raped. Once I pointed out your silly argument you change your tune. News flash: rape is a horrible consequence of war. Serbs did it as well as others. You made it sound as if it were a part of the whole Srebrenica crime.
When in my post did I not say around 8000 people were killed? Stay focused if you're going to argue with me, especially if you're going to accuse someone else of having no shame.
(the actual truth, 9 July 2015 19:44)
Why you Serbs justify your crimes others did it so its ok? I did not change my tune you Killed men and Boys and you raped woman and no its not consequence of war, but of your nationalist identity.
And Serbs did use Rape as a tool of fear and intimidation.
Sebrenica will be a something all your future generations have to live with that Serbian cowards killed and raped in Sebrenica for all world to see worst crime since WW2 not a good thing to be measured with.
Why you Serbs justify your crimes others did it so its ok? I did not change my tune you Killed men and Boys and you raped woman and no its not consequence of war, but of your nationalist identity.
And Serbs did use Rape as a tool of fear and intimidation
=====================================
Nobody said it was ok for Serbs to do becaue it was done to them. All we are saying is that justice is being denied to Serb victims who went through the same thing.
Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians have all raped and killed during that war but I haven't seen on from those side condemn them and call them all sorts of names. It is YOU who obviously thinks that it's ok when your side does it but when Serbs do they are monsters.
Anyone doing it is a monster and I certainly do not think it was ok but I really would love to hear you say the same thing. By not saying it you are the one who's condoning your own side doing it.
Wow, all of them? That's a lot of raping in such a short period of time. And to think all that happened while men and boys were being killed. Such efficient and industrious people these Serbs are. How many thousands of women and young children were released? And all of them were raped? If Serbs were that efficient in their killing and raping, they'd have taken over the entire Balkans.
(the actual truth, 9 July 2015 15:56)
====================================
If Serbs raped that many women when did they have time to actually participate in the war? They must've been too tired to fight.
I think that rape is a monsterous tool of war and all sides have participated in it but Muslims and Croats only call Serbs monsters for doing it. Hypocrites. Anyone who engaged in this should be tried for war crimes and I am all for Serbs being answereable for it but the other sides must also acknowledge their part in it and hunt down theirs as well.
I won't hold my breath.
Please first admit the genocide in Bosnia's Jasenovac concentration camp that took place during WW2 where 600,000 perished (mostly Serbs).
(factman, 10 July 2015 18:01)
The good thing about this forum is it allows all the Serbs to post all their exaggerations and claims and high five each other and then lay down and cry the cry of the eternal victim. It is the perfect forum for impotents who want to blame everyone else without taking responsibility for their crimes.
The US Holocaust Museum puts the number of deaths at Jasenovic at between 77 and 99 thousand.
I guess it is up to individuals as to which source they believe. Knowing the many other posts of misinformation "factman" claims I think it will not be him.
"Between its establishment in 1941 and its evacuation in April 1945, Croat authorities murdered thousands of people at Jasenovac. Among the victims were: between 45,000 and 52,000 Serb residents of the so-called Independent State of Croatia; between 12,000 and 20,000 Jews; between 15,000 and 20,000 Roma (Gypsies); and between 5,000 and 12,000 ethnic Croats and Muslims, who were political and religious opponents of the regime."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Jasenovac.html
"Due to differing views and lack of documentation, estimates for the number of Serbian victims in Croatia range widely, from 25,000 to more than one million. The most reliable figures place the number of Serbs killed by the Ustaša between 330,000 and 390,000, with 45,000 to 52,000 Serbs murdered in Jasenovac."
"It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945."
Never said that Jasenovac was not one of the worst humanitarian crimes in modern history, only that you inflate the numbers to make it worse.
Ironic though with the tragedy of the Serbian people they turn around and commit the very same crimes on others 50 years later.
The UN has been irrelevant since NATO bombed Serbia in 1999. Now Serbia is begging to join NATO. There would be no Russian veto if the British resolution was voted on by NATO countries. It is obvious Serbia is being fitted with training wheels for NATO. All it means is Serbia is no longer required to wear short pants but, is a long way from being given BB's for its toy rifle. However, the Serbian army will be allowed to march at the back end of all NATO parades, provided they have presentable uniforms, and not the ragged and smelly animal skins of the Chetniks.
We all know who the real savages, rapist and terrorist are in the Balkans are
==============================
Yes we do. Take a look at who is terrorizing the world right now, Raping, burning alive, beheading and all that for minor 'crimes' such as eating or drinking during the day on Ramadam or not being Muslim or even the wrong kind of Muslim.
I know that it's not the Serbs doing all that. Yes, it's the Muslims.
Here are your savages who are leaving Bosnia and Kosovo to join ISIL and join in the "festivities".
Please first admit the genocide in Bosnia's Jasenovac concentration camp that took place during WW2 where 600,000 perished (mostly Serbs).
(factman, 10 July 2015 18:01)
You are in the wrong forum, dear. You are not in a Court here and we are not judges to determine whether the crime genocide was committed or not during the events that you describe. For that matter the crime of genocide did not even exist at that time.
No doubt that the event you describe was terrible, but if you want that event to be declared genocide by the International Community, you should go to the UNSC and ask it to establish a Court for prosecution of those responsible for the crimes committed at Jasenovac durin WW2. During the trial, the Court will establish whether the crime of genocide was committed and if those indicted are responsible for it. Once the Court delivers the verdict, you can come back here and ask us to admit the genocide, depending on what that verdict is.
@ ??? who said: "Assuming you are a white, straight boy, would you be cool if that court recognized you as a black lesbian girl? Are you just gonna sit there and take it knowing it is not true? "
let me tell you smth as I have lived a long life in the Balkans and am still standing. The only justice balkan people will recognize, is a decision in their favor. Until then, justice is never done.
Russia does not do things for free, I wonder what our politicians promised for the veto vote....
There is not a need to hold the discussion any longer of whether Srebrenica was a genocide or a massacre. It is well established the seriousness of the crime and it is labelled as the worst crime committed on European soil since WW2.
It is a time to enact a resolution on shaming the international community for allowing it to happen and then once it did allowing Serbia to move on to Kosovo to begin the same campaign. The western powers and NATO think they have absolved themselves since they orchestrated a 78 bombing campaign. Following Bosnia and then Kosovo, bombing should have ONLY stopped with full and unconditional surrender of Serbia with international forces occupying Belgrade and the rebuilding of Serbia not Kosovo. It should have demilitarized Serbia and placed it under total UN control and spent the last 15 years building a ethnically protected Serbia. That is the only way peace could be assured for the future.
You have a cancer that is overtaking the body, you get rid of the cancer, you don't just let it grow and say you are trying to heal the body.
EVERYONE knew the war criminals were hiding in Serbia under the protection of the Serb govt and forces for almost two decades and yet there was and still is no punishment for those actions.
So the resolutions should be on the shame of the international community not to pat ourselves on the back and say look at us we are condemning them for THEIR actions!
Yes, i agree. It is ironic -- but also sad -- and despicable many of the Serb actions during the civil wars. I agree. Horrible. With many disgusting acts. And all of it should be punished and remembered (so it never happens again). Let all the Serb perpetrators go to jail. I'll drive the bus.
But please don't minimize what the NDH did in WW2.
But please don't minimize what the NDH did in WW2.
(factman, 11 July 2015 16:15)
Now, the stories that are told of the horrors at Jasenovac are some of the cruelest I have ever read. And if it were reported by your camp that 50,000 Serbs suffered these tragic ends, I would be on board to condemn it to the highest level. My issue is that on here I have read there were 500,000, 700,000 or a million Serbs who died at Jasenovac. I know of NO reason why any of the sources would have to diminish those numbers. But your idea of credible source and mine differ. So I have to wonder what is the motivation to inflate those numbers.
And the very same people who inflate those numbers are the ones who want to diminish the legitimacy of Srebrenica.
I do not wish to argue numbers with you any further and I will concede that the tragedy of Jasenovac was an unforgivable crime against the Serbian people.
But it also does nothing to absolve the Serbs of the crimes they committed in Bosnia nor Kosovo.
Most nearly all perpetrators of crimes in WW2 are dead should any still be alive they should still be prosecuted and punished as anyone who can be proven to commit crimes in Bosnia and Kosovo. Whether it be by their hand or an extension of their hand.
They did try and they did Rape a lot of woman even Raping 1 woman and there were 1000 of them its enough.
Do you say they did not kill 8000 men and Boys?
Man how you dont feel shame....!
(Bilbao, 9 July 2015 17:38)
Ah so now even if it's 1 it's bad. Before, you made it sound like all of them were raped. Once I pointed out your silly argument you change your tune. News flash: rape is a horrible consequence of war. Serbs did it as well as others. You made it sound as if it were a part of the whole Srebrenica crime.
When in my post did I not say around 8000 people were killed? Stay focused if you're going to argue with me, especially if you're going to accuse someone else of having no shame.
Let me add this you were justifying RAPE how disgusting of you!!!
(Bilbao, 9 July 2015 21:23)
Dude, are you purposefully being stupid or are you just that dense by design? You're the one who made an outrageous comment before about all the women of Srebrenica being raped, which has absolutely no proof to it. I replied with a comment that is fitting your inappropriate statement which points out how unlikely that scenario could have been. Then you get offended in thinking I'm trivializing the whole thing and call ME disgusting?
Do I have to spell out how hypocritical you are?? Do I have to walk you through the counterargument or are you just going to change the subject and accuse me of trivializing rape because you have no other come back? You don't even know me dude, and you don't even know what I may or may not experienced. You want to make an outlandish statement and then get upset someone threw the accusation back in your face, then YOU'RE the disgusting one, especially if you accuse me of dismissing something that happened to ALL women in that f*cking war by ALL sides by misreading my post.
You either better brush up on your English or you better get your facts checked the next time you make an asinine statement. As if Serbs were the only people who employed rape as a weapon of terror in the 1990s or before. Yeah, real original. You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? It makes that sh!tstorm of a war all the easier for you to comprehend.
So how long after, if this resolution was adopted, would the US and Western Europe claim to be stopping genocide early in other countries of interest. Syria is the first cab of the ranks and no need for sec council resolutions because all you need to claim is the moral responsibility and voila your corporatist democracy can run rampant. Russia and co ain't that stupid.
We all know who the real savages, rapist and terrorist are in the Balkans are.
(UnikKatil, 9 July 2015 22:26)
No you don't. You're just shouting through your keyboard like a whiny little racist bitch who doesn't know jack about the wars in the 1990s. Nice username. Never seen it before but you're addressing people like you know them. What other aliases do you normally use around here, or are you just one of those angry trolls passing through?
I’m one of the three I am not a Serb and I start t love this Bobbing game. But I agree that Serbs committed multiple crimes including those in Srebrenica. Besides they now that at least Uastashas are as legal as LGBT I believe we must have one more international court to show the real faces of the Serbs. They also failed to save the Jews during Holocaust. So Serbs must be deported to where they came from i.e. their “mother Russia”. All tools are good for that including having many good Bobs here.
Freely available on Wikipedia (and a million other places).
It would appear that you are withholding facts when discussing this matter and are attempting to influence readers with disinformation and propaganda.
Killed at Jasenovac
- Josip Broz Tito - 500,000–600,000 (perhaps the most damning of all estimates!)
- Encyclopedia of the Holocaust 600,000
- Simon Wiesenthal's Museum of Tolerance 600,000
- Yad Vashem Center 500k killed, 250k exiled, 200k converted to Catholocism
Killed at Jasenovac according to German military commanders
- 400,000 Serbs (Alexander Löhr)
- 350,000 Serbs (Lothar Rendulic)
- 300,000 (Edmund Glaise von Horstenau)
- 600–700,000 (Ernst Fick)
- 700,000 (Massenbach)
- 750,000 (Hermann Neubacher)
The FULL quote from the US Holocaust Museum:
"As of 2009, USHMM has estimated the Ustaše regime murdered between 66,000 and 99,000 people (mostly Serbs) in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945...... during the period of Ustaše rule, a total of between 330,000 and 390,000 ethnic Serbs and more than 30,000 Croatian Jews were killed either in Croatia or at Auschwitz-Birkenau."
"Determining the number of victims is highly problematic.... As more documents become accessible and more research is conducted into the records of the Ustaša regime, historians and demographers may be able to determine more precise figures than are now available.
1. The first link is Croatian. By even offering the link of people who deny what was done, you say a lot about your motivations and intentions.
2. Yes, we are aware of the USHMM. So what? And that organization is the sole arbitrator? Because they are American, they know best? You quote them like God has spoken. Remember that the US at that time was an active party in the Civil Wars. One must raise the issue of possible interference in order to acheive a political goal.
3. You do not address that every single one of my sources are non-partizan. The US is more authoratative than first hand accounts (simply because it is the US)? Are you saying Jews are misrepresenting the amount killed? That they are exagerrating? Please do answer this. And what of the German and Austrian field Marshalls who wrote what they wrote? What about Tito himself?
4. You place most all your emphasis on a Museum section devoted to Jasenovac which originated during the Yugoslav civil wars (where none existed for many years before), where Croatia had most all input and not Serbia (because Serbia was not even invited).To this day they refuse to take into account Serbia's view. It reminds of when a Byzantine Icon collection came to tour major US museums in USA during the war and no mention was made of Serbia and its icons!
5. USHMM say right there on the web page that more research needs to be done.
You must be kidding me by presenting this blunt little piece of Holocaust denying drivel.
“the ICJ and ICTY. The European Parliament, which your leaders dream to be part of some day also adopted the resolution. No matter what you say and how you justify it you will not convince anyone that there was no genocide.“
I agree that Cartagena must be destroyed and Serbs dematerialized. But mentioning those pocket organizations does not help us getting rid of the serbs. So I think deportation is the only way out. It was good that Finland barred the Russians to the EP Session but how are we going to persuade Mongolia to do so ? meanwhile the truth is a very subjective thing. I would say that it’s the dominating idea. Otherwise if every 8000 victims were called genocide all the history of the mankind would be history of genocides. But we need here and now to oppress the serbs not letting them raise their heads in the future by imposing them guilt syndrome. The way it was with the Germans after WW2. That’s what unites Muslims and Catholics today.
(the actual truth, 10 July 2015 05:32
Not that your discussion is worth venturing into, but I will. YOu claim he misread your post, but you did the same thing. He said the wormen were not set free they were raped, he did not say all women were raped nor do I think any reasonable person would think he meant every one of them was raped. But the rape of these women is well documented so it did happen and you DID try to trivialize it.
You and Peggy speak of time, soldiers were not killing 24 hours a day so there was down time and thousands of soldiers at probably a maximum 3 minutes a pop for Serbs, they could have covered a lot of women.
It is you who write the "legalistic" trash intended to split hairs on what counts as genocide.
You are correct that the word genocide may have only been "coined" as a word in 1948 -- but the "act" of genocide is as old as mankind and pre-dates the invention of the word.
For example:
Electricity was not invented, it was discovered (It always existed)
Therefore:
Gencocide was not invented in 1948, it was only discovered (it always existed).
It is you who write the "legalistic" trash intended to split hairs on what counts as genocide.
You are correct that the word genocide may have only been "coined" as a word in 1948 -- but the "act" of genocide is as old as mankind and pre-dates the invention of the word.
Electricity was not invented, it was discovered (It always existed)
Therefore:
Gencocide was not invented in 1948, it was only discovered (it always existed).
(factman, 13 July 2015 18:21)
Well, you did not provide any argument to show that I'm wrong - so even in mentioning the word "trash" you still write trash lol. That "splitting hairs" makes the difference between somebody walking free or spending the rest of his/her life in jail.
We are not discussing dictionaries here; we're discussing crimes perpetrated by criminals. On dictionaries, everybody can write his/her own about how to define genocide. If you want to define something as genocide, by all means go ahead; it's as irrelevant as I were to define it - it's not going to send anybody to jail. 1 million people are going to have as many different opinions of what's genocide.
But on the crime of genocide there are some determinations made beyond reasonable doubt by the international community (not me, you or a dictionary) and the determination is that the crime of genocide has been committed (so far) twice in history: 1. Rwanda 1994 and 2. Srebrenica 1995 and the perpetrators have ended up in jail. End of the story...
I didn't say the Serb People ...I said in the Bosnian War the Serbs ,as in the Serb faction committed Genocide in Srebrinica .
I hope there would be some good serbs but where were the Anti Genocide Protests in Serbia?????
(Azir, 13 July 2015 13:39)
Whether Serbs are good or not for you has nothing to do with them being guilty or not guilty of genocide.
The "Serb faction" did not committ genocide. Genocide is a crime for which there is individual criminal responsibility; there is not such a thing of a "faction" of whatever ethinicity being guilty of genocide. Otherwise you are no better than people like Peggy who advocate the extermination of all 14 year old boys because the faction of "Fourteen year old boys are known to fight in a Muslim army".
And the gap is getting wider between Russia and the West. On the other hand Serbia has nothing to pride itself. It still remains a nation in denial about its past and extremely delusional about its future. Serbia is currently the only state from the ex Yugoslav territories which has open issues with Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro. Tremendous amount of work remains to be done by Serbia to correct the past wrong doings and establish a clear peaceful path. Unfortunately, Serbia with its current delusional leadership is unwilling to set goals which will enable her to make amends with its immediate neighbors and set a peaceful path for the future generations. It was said countless of times that one cannot be part of the European family with unresolved conflicts. Then why is Serbia trying to join EU when it has open issues with practically all of its members.
This is no surprise. Another dark day in the Balkans. And as always, Russia again shows it doesn't belong in the Security Council or on any other relevant international governing body.
Today lines have been drawn once again between the civilized world and genocidal, tyrannical, human rights violators. We have the dark example of the Serbs to thank for. It was not important at all wether the resolution passed or not - to expect Russia to vote on an issue of human dignity was as asking the bear to turn vegetarian. The importance of the vote lay in the message of remembrance to never again allow genocide and ethnic cleansing on European soil.
Yet, Serbia and Serbs in general failed to win the day. They failed to show the civilized world that they have changed, learned from their past mistakes. 20 years after Srebrenica they are lead by the same lunatics, paramilitaries, war-mongers, with a psychotic grave digger as the head of state! Shame, shame, shame. You have lost what little dignity you had left and forsaken your longterm national interest for self-satisfying pride and inat. You have killed those victims once again. Shame, shame, shame!
Russia does not give a dam about us, it has no friends , only interests.
It remains to be seen what they got in exchange form our corrupt government to use their veto. Our government is stuck in ideological fights instead of being pragmatic and moving on to the economic front. Srebrenica massacre has been recognized as genocide by the court, move on.
I'm so glad and proud that our Samantha Power, who was actually in the midst of the Bosnian genocide during the war, stood strong and didn't cave in to the fascists. Better to have the resolution vetoed by Putin-Russia than to water it down. I spit on the representatives of Putin-Russia, Serbia and so-called RS, and hope and expect that good and normal ppl inside serbia and RS will raise their voices against fascism and genocide denial.
Vucic, don't travel to Srebrenica - I spit on you!
In a way Serbia is making the same mistake Turkey has made. Even after 100 years Armenian Genocide is still remembered. The hammer of justice will come back from time to time to hit Serbs on the head and remind them of crimes they committed.
Srebrenica is a lie built by West. Around the town horrible actions happened, from both sides, but this is the war. Srebrenica looks like Racak, a false flag.
Russia did was what right: Russia didn't allow the lie to win.
I never thought that I would say this, but well done Russia! The British draft resulotion was wrong and out of place. The tragedy of Sebrenica cannot be considered in isolation and must be put in context with the preceeding atrocities carried out against the Serb population by the muslim forces. The draft resolution failed to acknowledge this and was a thinly veiled attack against the Serbs. It was also probably submitted on behalf of Germany in line with the latter's hate campaign against Serbia.
All of this will be forgotten in two weeks and reconciliation can continue slowly. If the resolution had passed, reconciliation would be set back 10 years. Thank God this irresponsible act was stopped. Britain still thinks it has the same power as the 90s.
It saddens me to see my government (I'm English) involving itself with matters that do not concern it, presumably to kowtow to the British Muslim community. The general attitude of the West (Serbia bad, Croatia, Bosnia, Albania good) shows sickening manipulation.
I am not a Russophile. Especially when I compare myself to many Serbs I know. But that said, I know a friend when I see one. And Russia is a friend of Serbia's. Doesn't ask for much in return-don't join NATO, don't join the sanctions etc. And in return, Russia gives Serbia international support in times of political aggression such as this.
Srebrenica massacre has been recognized as genocide by the court, move on.
(boom, 8 July 2015 18:21)
Assuming you are a white, straight boy, would you be cool if that court recognized you as a black lesbian girl? Are you just gonna sit there and take it knowing it is not true?
Muslim forces? There were no muslim forces im Bosnia except mujahideen. There was bosnian forces tho which had christians and muslims in it unlike VRS or HVO.
It is funny how you guys talk like bosnian forces commit same crimes as serbian one but think about this. If they did commit same crimes why were all catholics and mosques burned down in serbian controlled territory? If bosnian forces again did commit same crimes why are catholic and orthodoxs churches still standing without even being touched? Why cant serbs present factual evidence of a planned massacere against serbs? Why cant they show where those 3500 serb bodies who allegedly were massacered? Who snipered those kids in Sarajevo which serb kids were also killed by bullets from the mountains? Who created the Foca rape camp? Or those concentration camps in north Bosnia? Lets not bullshit here, we both know who did it.
Now come with actual evidence of bosnian forces as a group committing atrocities against serbs. I can acknowledge that there might have been some atrocities during operation oluja but that was individuals and some have been sentenced in Haag.
The evidence are overwhelming when it comes to who was most agressive towards civilians. It is like you tried to outshine Hitler himself.
During the debate, the British representative said that the draft "does not accuse the Serb people, because crimes were committed by all sides and there have been victims on all sides."
Yes but the resolution fixates on one event of the entire civil war, pushes for a particular way of labeling the event, makes denying what said event was labelled as as a crime, and has been clumsily pushed through by one country in time to commemorate an anniversary in a way that makes it look more like a marketing gimmick than an actual call for peace and reconciliation. This entire circus, played by a cast of fools from numerous countries and territories, did nothing beyond demonstrating how politicians seek personal gain off the misery of others. That Russia and China appeared to be the most sane actors in this mess is absolutely nothing to feel good about.
We all can agree that UN is a big joke regardless of what they decided. Dutch tulips had weapons to shoot, why aren't muslims blaming them. We all know that all those people there and Vukovar were sacrificed to make serbs look like bad guys and to get international support for anti-serbian crusade. Media of course failed to mention attacks against Serbian vilians prior to this events. There were plenty of muslims and croats who were on the nazi dide, many were still alive in those days. Serbia behaved like an abused child, uusually people understand those who are traumatized.
China? They didnt even veto it. Theh knew majority would vote yes and yet they abstained. That says alot of what China thinks. Russia only veto it beacuse Serbia is only ally in Europe and Russia need allies at this point.
Serbia is currently the only state from the ex Yugoslav territories which has open issues with Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro.
(XD, 8 July 2015 17:25)
Oh yea? List all these open issues with all these countries (and Serbias southern province)
I dont understand either how some of you think this option will be better for reconcile? This will grow Bosnia and Serbia away from each other further apart. This has nothing to do with reconcaliaton but about pure denial. You think bosniaks will celebrate this beacuse now you guys can reconcile, right? Ive heard alot of retard talls from politicians from around the world but serbian politician takes the prize.
oh dear certain reading certain comments here, one gets the impression that what some people really mean, is that Srebrencia is a more complicated story than has been portrayed. there nothing complicated about it, approx. 8000+ men, having been captured, were then murdered in 4 days in cold blood by people who really did not have to do it. it is a war crime, it is an attempt at gonocide, by cleansing an entire town of its population, that is all that it was. The resolution was a resolution on Srebrenica, it was not a resolution the Bosnian war, in the same way the Holocaust deals with only with Nazi crimes against the Jews population of Europe, it does not deal with W2. who knows however, maybe that story is more complicated as well
Thank you Russia. Without a level playing field, laying down condemnations is meaningless. A token line about atrocities on all sides doesn't help much when the discussion is being framed in a particular direction, and the countries known for creating and inflaming conflicts are being let off the hook.
Horrible comparison. Do you think they were like "lets just call it genocide"...no they collected evidence and proof which concluded that a genocide did take place.
What's to rejoice here? The fact that "genocide" is even being discussed would be enough to put anyone to shame. Leave the past behind, build bridges, foster new friendships, and treat them just as such: friendships. Srebrenica is a stain in the history of Serbia, and should be looked upon as a reminder of what should never happen again.
"The Serbs neutralized a battalion of extremist militants in order to prevent a massacre of human life. Serbia should be praised for its bravery."
This is the stupidest account of what happened yet. Prevent a massacre by carrying out a massacre itself? ....and, applauded for bravery? What bravery? They murdered 8000+ captured people and then tried to hide their remains in mass graves. what is brave about that? dear me, go see a doctor, tell him/her that you have a conscience missing and see if he/she can prescribe anything for it
Now Serbia is begging to join NATO
The Count of Kosovo
Seriously, where do you albanians get all your crap from? Serbia begging to join NATO! Serbia could join HATO tomorrow if it wanted, which I hope it won't. Seems like most albanians at this forum got their history lessons and news from albanian coffeyshops in Tirana and Pristina.
Good job Russia.
You complete your horrible "creation'. Again!
Now, you made more enemies than before.
And congratulations to Serbia.
Now you are more "guilty" than before.
As much as you live in EU, is not important what Russia think, is important what the Eu country think.
The representatives of EU think unanimously that you did Genocide.
This is important..
Because the rest of the world think that Russia vetoed it because you are the last 'bastion" of Russia in EU.
This does not relieve Serbia from accusations for Genocide.
End of the discussion!
where are these fascists you speak of? are you seeing things again? the doctor told you to stay on your medication otherwise you'd risk hallucination and start hitting ppl.
In a way Serbia is making the same mistake Turkey has made. Even after 100 years Armenian Genocide is still remembered. The hammer of justice will come back from time to time to hit Serbs on the head and remind them of crimes they committed.
(Avni, 8 July 2015 20:13)
==============================
There is absolutely no comparrison between the two. Stop being a drama queen.
(rote, 9 July 2015 10:30)
You don't convince even your self...
Are you convinced that Srebrenica was not a Genocide? The truth!!
( i know that you will not tell the truth, but by the way... )
I will understand if the victims were Albanians ( as much as we are not slavs ) - but Bosnians are slavs...
This is not good for the reconciliation, and i must tell you as much as we have more than 100 -150 years of hate with serbs.
They did the same in the WW1 with Albanians - and Russia 'covered" them...
They did the same thing with Bosnians...
You did the same thing...
To bad...., now it will never end...
But as much as you have your interests...
We all know who the real savages, rapist and terrorist are in the Balkans are
==============================
Yes we do. Take a look at who is terrorizing the world right now, Raping, burning alive, beheading and all that for minor 'crimes' such as eating or drinking during the day on Ramadam or not being Muslim or even the wrong kind of Muslim.
I know that it's not the Serbs doing all that. Yes, it's the Muslims.
Here are your savages who are leaving Bosnia and Kosovo to join ISIL and join in the "festivities".
"The British draft resolution on Srebrenica has not been adopted by the United Nations Security Council, because Russia vetoed it."
This was needed to show how alone Russia and Serbia are, in case anybody had doubts!
Obviously it does not change the fact the Srebrenica was a genocide; that has already been established beyond reasonable doubt by the international community and unfortunatey for Russia the truth can't be vetoed (except within Russia).
The UN has been irrelevant since NATO bombed Serbia in 1999. Now Serbia is begging to join NATO. There would be no Russian veto if the British resolution was voted on by NATO countries. It is obvious Serbia is being fitted with training wheels for NATO. All it means is Serbia is no longer required to wear short pants but, is a long way from being given BB's for its toy rifle. However, the Serbian army will be allowed to march at the back end of all NATO parades, provided they have presentable uniforms, and not the ragged and smelly animal skins of the Chetniks.
Should we focus on a single event in the Bosnian war to draw a conclusion or see the whole picture? Never mind the thousands of serbs killed leading up to this tragedy. The most important thing is to highlight Serbian warcrimes to justify certain political actions in the balkans and a continuation of an anti Serb agenda. The west and the balkans apparently need to have a scapegoat and someone to blame for everything. Everyone is a heroe against the evil witch.
It would have been better if my country had been persuaded to withdraw the resolution, but they cannot be surprised that Russia vetoed it,
===========================================
Exactly, so why did they go ahead with it? Political reason, that's why. They want history to show that justice "was not done" because of big bad Russia. This is all political games by the west and silly Albanians and Muslims think that this is being done to honour their dead.
That's precisely why it was right to veto this ridiculous resolution. Justice was not going to be done because only one side is being portrayed as victim in this war. Just as many Serbs were killed around that area but because it wasn't done in one day it's not importnat. The fact that they were civilians who were butchered over some time is irrelevant and being Serbs just makes it even more irrelevant. We have to have good guys and bad guys to show the world how the US is always on the side of "good guys".
Thank God Serbia is not alone in this one.
Are you considering g this Victory??? Shame on you.. This is Russia against the West.. Serbia is been used as weak weapon.
Genocide has happened accept it and move on-or stay where you are and you will be on this position for an other century.
If this is a veto over something more interest such as related to make sense which is geopolitical the Serbia should declare victory saying the veto power has helped the justice win. But not on this please. People been massacred and you declare victory - shame shame shame. You will see the consequences now.you think British will stay as is nothing happen? You think twice.
The draft was politically motivated, as was Russia's veto. Nothing happens genuinely in the Security Counsel. I am happy that it was vetoed, as there is this putrid fairy tale that Serbs were responsible for everything in the Balkans. Let's not forget first that Tito was a Croat, not a Serb, and he was the dictator that ruled long. Let's not also forget that it was the Croats and the Slovenes who broke away first. Let's not forget all the crimes committed. Well, if you choose to believe in fairly tales, I feel sorry for you.
y cleansing an entire town of its population, that is all that it was. The resolution was a resolution on Srebrenica, it was not a resolution the Bosnian war, in the same way the Holocaust deals with only with Nazi crimes against the Jews population of Europe, it does not deal with W2. who knows however, maybe that story is more complicated as well
(Nikolle, 8 July 2015 22:34)
If thats the case then tell me why were the women and children set free? You don't even know the definition of the word genocide. Jasenovac and Jadovno, now those were genocide and yet I don't see you nor anyone else say that the croats should be punished for it.
I wonder if the dead from Srebrenica even care about this political debate and I also wonder why the living choose to focus on the past when their present life is the only they thing they have the power to change for the better. This is another example of politicians focusing the attention away from the things that are important.
oh dear certain reading certain comments here, one gets the impression that what some people really mean, is that Srebrencia is a more complicated story than has been portrayed. there nothing complicated about it, approx. 8000+ men, having been captured, were then murdered in 4 days in cold blood by people who really did not have to do it.
(Nikolle, 8 July 2015 22:34)
Sorry that we did not simplify it to the level of NATO rhetoric. Here, let me try: "The Serbs neutralized a battalion of extremist militants in order to prevent a massacre of human life. Serbia should be praised for its bravery." So please forgive us if we aren't all jerks enough to express ourselves that way. And please excuse those of us who, without condoning lethal acts on the part of others, are sickened by NATO's routine practice of backing terrorism in order to further the destruction of innocent life.
Naser Oric and his men killed thousands of serbs In a couple of months which is why it went unnoticed. In othe words if you want to get away with mass murder don't kill them in a short period of time as the case was with Srebrenica. Also interesting that neither the murder of 1 million armenisns or Jasenovac is not considered to be genocide. I wonder what qualifies as genocide and who is deciding on the matter.
No matter what you say and whatever your government comes up with to undermine what happened in Srebrenica you are never going to succeed, most people who know some history know that it was the worst massacre after WWII. It was labelled a genocide by the ICJ and ICTY. The European Parliament, which your leaders dream to be part of some day also adopted the resolution.
No matter what you say and how you justify it you will not convince anyone that there was no genocide.
I totally agree with you that whoever committed crimes against Serbs or any other ethnic group for that matter should be held accountable and brought before justice, no exceptions, but just by saying many atrocities against Serbs went unpunished does not change what happened in Srebrenica, or minimize what happened there.
Russia might veto the UNSC resolution, whatever but don't fool yourselves believing that most of Europe including every single one of your neighbors, will just forget what happened there. Playing the victim card won't help anymore, forget about it.
We all know who the real savages, rapist and terrorist are in the Balkans are. No matter what you do and regardless of the Russian veto and support the Srebrenica genocide will be of the front page of your colorful criminal resume. It will never stop haunting you.
Why you Serbs justify your crimes others did it so its ok? I did not change my tune you Killed men and Boys and you raped woman and no its not consequence of war, but of your nationalist identity.
And Serbs did use Rape as a tool of fear and intimidation
=====================================
Nobody said it was ok for Serbs to do becaue it was done to them. All we are saying is that justice is being denied to Serb victims who went through the same thing.
Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians have all raped and killed during that war but I haven't seen on from those side condemn them and call them all sorts of names. It is YOU who obviously thinks that it's ok when your side does it but when Serbs do they are monsters.
Anyone doing it is a monster and I certainly do not think it was ok but I really would love to hear you say the same thing. By not saying it you are the one who's condoning your own side doing it.
I wonder why the BBC almost always refers to what happened in Srebrenica as a massacre and not "genocide"? "Srebrenica genocide" is pretty much always quoted. Many prominent people have disputed genocide including Jewish NAZI hunters. Eventually the truth will prevail because through manipulation, "genocide" is mainly accepted in the West, who were heavily involved in the Bosnian war on the side of the Muslims and need justification for their crimes.
Here are some instances of BBC articles referring to the Srebrenica massacre.
There is not a need to hold the discussion any longer of whether Srebrenica was a genocide or a massacre. It is well established the seriousness of the crime and it is labelled as the worst crime committed on European soil since WW2.
It is a time to enact a resolution on shaming the international community for allowing it to happen and then once it did allowing Serbia to move on to Kosovo to begin the same campaign. The western powers and NATO think they have absolved themselves since they orchestrated a 78 bombing campaign. Following Bosnia and then Kosovo, bombing should have ONLY stopped with full and unconditional surrender of Serbia with international forces occupying Belgrade and the rebuilding of Serbia not Kosovo. It should have demilitarized Serbia and placed it under total UN control and spent the last 15 years building a ethnically protected Serbia. That is the only way peace could be assured for the future.
You have a cancer that is overtaking the body, you get rid of the cancer, you don't just let it grow and say you are trying to heal the body.
EVERYONE knew the war criminals were hiding in Serbia under the protection of the Serb govt and forces for almost two decades and yet there was and still is no punishment for those actions.
So the resolutions should be on the shame of the international community not to pat ourselves on the back and say look at us we are condemning them for THEIR actions!
Serbs disagree with the fabricated narrative of Srebrenica.
The fabricated part which seeks to:
1. cover-up the complicity of other nations
2. cover-up the despicable acts of Bosnian soldiers against Serb civilians
3. Overlook the fact that many were armed combatants seeking to flee (and were ambushed)
Women were not set free they were RAPED that is worst than death my friend. Boys as litlle as 14 where killed.
(Bilbao, 9 July 2015 14:47)
Wow, all of them? That's a lot of raping in such a short period of time. And to think all that happened while men and boys were being killed. Such efficient and industrious people these Serbs are. How many thousands of women and young children were released? And all of them were raped? If Serbs were that efficient in their killing and raping, they'd have taken over the entire Balkans.
Wow, all of them? That's a lot of raping in such a short period of time. And to think all that happened while men and boys were being killed. Such efficient and industrious people these Serbs are. How many thousands of women and young children were released? And all of them were raped? If Serbs were that efficient in their killing and raping, they'd have taken over the entire Balkans.
(the actual truth, 9 July 2015 15:56)
====================================
If Serbs raped that many women when did they have time to actually participate in the war? They must've been too tired to fight.
I think that rape is a monsterous tool of war and all sides have participated in it but Muslims and Croats only call Serbs monsters for doing it. Hypocrites. Anyone who engaged in this should be tried for war crimes and I am all for Serbs being answereable for it but the other sides must also acknowledge their part in it and hunt down theirs as well.
I won't hold my breath.
“the ICJ and ICTY. The European Parliament, which your leaders dream to be part of some day also adopted the resolution. No matter what you say and how you justify it you will not convince anyone that there was no genocide.“
I agree that Cartagena must be destroyed and Serbs dematerialized. But mentioning those pocket organizations does not help us getting rid of the serbs. So I think deportation is the only way out. It was good that Finland barred the Russians to the EP Session but how are we going to persuade Mongolia to do so ? meanwhile the truth is a very subjective thing. I would say that it’s the dominating idea. Otherwise if every 8000 victims were called genocide all the history of the mankind would be history of genocides. But we need here and now to oppress the serbs not letting them raise their heads in the future by imposing them guilt syndrome. The way it was with the Germans after WW2. That’s what unites Muslims and Catholics today.
@ ??? who said: "Assuming you are a white, straight boy, would you be cool if that court recognized you as a black lesbian girl? Are you just gonna sit there and take it knowing it is not true? "
let me tell you smth as I have lived a long life in the Balkans and am still standing. The only justice balkan people will recognize, is a decision in their favor. Until then, justice is never done.
Russia does not do things for free, I wonder what our politicians promised for the veto vote....
I spit on the representatives of Putin-Russia, Serbia and so-called RS, and hope and expect that good and normal ppl inside serbia and RS will raise their voices against fascism and genocide denial.
Vucic, don't travel to Srebrenica - I spit on you!
(roberto, 8 July 2015 22:13)
==============================
I am sure a lot of people would like to spit on you too.
So if someone doesn't agree with you and your hatred for the Serbs they deserve to be spat on. You are so mature and wise (Sarcasm off).
BTW I am so happy to see you all bent out of shape over this. Suffer.
If thats the case then tell me why were the women and children set free? You don't even know the definition of the word genocide. Jasenovac and Jadovno, now those were genocide and yet I don't see you nor anyone else say that the croats should be punished for it.
(Daniel, 9 July 2015 14:13)
Women were not set free they were RAPED that is worst than death my friend. Boys as litlle as 14 where killed.
Serbs disagree with the fabricated narrative of Srebrenica.
The fabricated part which seeks to:
1. cover-up the complicity of other nations
2. cover-up the despicable acts of Bosnian soldiers against Serb civilians
3. Overlook the fact that many were armed combatants seeking to flee (and were ambushed)
(factman, 9 July 2015 14:01)
Sounds like you have become a master in the subject of fabrication!!!
They did try and they did Rape a lot of woman even Raping 1 woman and there were 1000 of them its enough.
Do you say they did not kill 8000 men and Boys?
Man how you dont feel shame....!
(Bilbao, 9 July 2015 17:38)
Ah so now even if it's 1 it's bad. Before, you made it sound like all of them were raped. Once I pointed out your silly argument you change your tune. News flash: rape is a horrible consequence of war. Serbs did it as well as others. You made it sound as if it were a part of the whole Srebrenica crime.
When in my post did I not say around 8000 people were killed? Stay focused if you're going to argue with me, especially if you're going to accuse someone else of having no shame.
We all know who the real savages, rapist and terrorist are in the Balkans are.
(UnikKatil, 9 July 2015 22:26)
No you don't. You're just shouting through your keyboard like a whiny little racist bitch who doesn't know jack about the wars in the 1990s. Nice username. Never seen it before but you're addressing people like you know them. What other aliases do you normally use around here, or are you just one of those angry trolls passing through?
I’m one of the three I am not a Serb and I start t love this Bobbing game. But I agree that Serbs committed multiple crimes including those in Srebrenica. Besides they now that at least Uastashas are as legal as LGBT I believe we must have one more international court to show the real faces of the Serbs. They also failed to save the Jews during Holocaust. So Serbs must be deported to where they came from i.e. their “mother Russia”. All tools are good for that including having many good Bobs here.
I wonder if the dead from Srebrenica even care about this political debate and I also wonder why the living choose to focus on the past when their present life is the only they thing they have the power to change for the better. This is another example of politicians focusing the attention away from the things that are important.
To Edwin and Roberto,you have never lived in a war zone of Bosnia,let alone been on holidays over their.When you live and talk to people that have lost family in Bosnian war like ,Serbs,Croats,Bosnian Muslims,Bosnian Jews,Or 7 day ventests( subotari).You will see that 8000 dead are all side people killed over 4 year's. I am talking about Bosnian Muslim's, Bosnian Serb's, Bosnian Subotari.
Shame that 20+ years have gone by and the circus still continues.It is not a game ,it was a dark decade the 90s to live in Yugoslavia. Unless you idiot's live in the country and mixed with different race of people .You won't talk sh-t and remember all people that died in Bosnia.
And all of them were raped? If Serbs were that efficient in their killing and raping, they'd have taken over the entire Balkans.
(the actual truth, 9 July 2015 15:56)
They did try and they did Rape a lot of woman even Raping 1 woman and there were 1000 of them its enough.
Ah so now even if it's 1 it's bad. Before, you made it sound like all of them were raped. Once I pointed out your silly argument you change your tune. News flash: rape is a horrible consequence of war. Serbs did it as well as others. You made it sound as if it were a part of the whole Srebrenica crime.
When in my post did I not say around 8000 people were killed? Stay focused if you're going to argue with me, especially if you're going to accuse someone else of having no shame.
(the actual truth, 9 July 2015 19:44)
Why you Serbs justify your crimes others did it so its ok? I did not change my tune you Killed men and Boys and you raped woman and no its not consequence of war, but of your nationalist identity.
And Serbs did use Rape as a tool of fear and intimidation.
Sebrenica will be a something all your future generations have to live with that Serbian cowards killed and raped in Sebrenica for all world to see worst crime since WW2 not a good thing to be measured with.
(Bob, 10 July 2015 08:42)
You have proven yourself to be a true serb, no other ethnic group in the world can go in as the aggressor and come out playing the victim card so well. I have said many times Serbia should change their national anthem to "Why is everyone picking on me"
Face up to your crimes and the whole thing will be history and we can move on.
1. The first link is Croatian. By even offering the link of people who deny what was done, you say a lot about your motivations and intentions.
2. Yes, we are aware of the USHMM. So what? And that organization is the sole arbitrator? Because they are American, they know best? You quote them like God has spoken. Remember that the US at that time was an active party in the Civil Wars. One must raise the issue of possible interference in order to acheive a political goal.
3. You do not address that every single one of my sources are non-partizan. The US is more authoratative than first hand accounts (simply because it is the US)? Are you saying Jews are misrepresenting the amount killed? That they are exagerrating? Please do answer this. And what of the German and Austrian field Marshalls who wrote what they wrote? What about Tito himself?
4. You place most all your emphasis on a Museum section devoted to Jasenovac which originated during the Yugoslav civil wars (where none existed for many years before), where Croatia had most all input and not Serbia (because Serbia was not even invited).To this day they refuse to take into account Serbia's view. It reminds of when a Byzantine Icon collection came to tour major US museums in USA during the war and no mention was made of Serbia and its icons!
5. USHMM say right there on the web page that more research needs to be done.
You must be kidding me by presenting this blunt little piece of Holocaust denying drivel.
Serbia did not win in this case. I wonder how many groups and parliaments will rush to create a Srebrenica Resolution as a reaction to today's events. I agree though that there is no difference to Russia's veto and the US, blind support for Israel.
But today's action has not and will not change anyone's perception of what Serbia's role was in not only Srebrenica but the entire break up of Yugoslavia and the many many senseless deaths of innocent people.
China's abstain was not surprising, and is not a support for Serbia, as the only support came from Russia. If you remember one of the famous resolutions (1244) was passed with a China abstain, when Russia voted yes instead of no.
Vucic's attendance at Srebrenica will be a disaster I am afraid, as with his speeches, I do not think he will be received well.
What I am curious about is how this will play out should Russia propose a special court to be set up by the UNSC over the KLA war crimes. A line has been drawn in the sand and there is not a way the US, Britain and France cannot support a Russian resolution on the matter. It would be more beneficial for the EU to proceed with its own court and keep it out of the UNSC.
How is the Serb crimes in battle of Srebrenica any worse than what eg. Israel did in Gaza 2014 ? In both events a few thousands were killed, percentage-wise much more in Gaza. In Gaza they were mostly civilians living under a blockade.
Serbs neutralized a battalion of extremist militants in order to prevent a massacre of human life.
(anode, 9 July 2015 04:03)
A person is neutralised when they are unarmed, face down in the back of a truck with their hands tied behind their backs. They don't need a bullet in the head also. Nor do they need to be thrown in a pit with dozens of other bodies. Nor do they need to be dug up again a few months later and moved to a a new pit. Are you for real?
Bad things happen during wars, horrible things, Naser Oric etc are scum, but what happened in Srebrenica is a whole new level of sick.
"Wow, all of them? That's a lot of raping in such a short period of time." You actually relativize this? do you know what is approximate number for rapes carried out by Serb forces? you really need your head screwed on
No matter what you say and whatever your government comes up with to undermine what happened in Srebrenica you are never going to succeed, most people who know some history know that it was the worst massacre after WWII. It was labelled a genocide by the ICJ and ICTY. The European Parliament, which your leaders dream to be part of some day also adopted the resolution.
No matter what you say and how you justify it you will not convince anyone that there was no genocide.
(UnikKatil, 9 July 2015 22:26)
People* like MikeC, Peggy, Ari and the rest believe that they have the same power to control the truth as the power that the monsters of the Serb Bosnian army had in 1995 to slaughter helpless 14 year old boys. That's how delusional they are!
The international community has established beyond reasonable doubt that what happened in Srebrenica was genocide. The ravings of people like MikeC, Peggy, Ari and the rest trying to justify the slaughter of 14 year old boys only serve to shed more light into the depraved thinking of those who are going to spend the rest of their lives in jail for committing that genocide.
* I apologize for calling "people" something which tries to justify the slaughtering of 14 year old boys blindfolded and with hands tied behind their back, but I have to be mindful of the B92 forums rules for the language used.
Yes, i agree. It is ironic -- but also sad -- and despicable many of the Serb actions during the civil wars. I agree. Horrible. With many disgusting acts. And all of it should be punished and remembered (so it never happens again). Let all the Serb perpetrators go to jail. I'll drive the bus.
But please don't minimize what the NDH did in WW2.
Perhaps B92 could consider registering names so duplications can't happen?
(Bob, 8 July 2015 21:10
Silly boy, you choose a screen name as common as Bob and you want exclusitivity? That would be like the one named sam, which is my actual name, but I do not use it. I like to use a variety of monikers to support my statements which I feel are more important than who says them.
These are all anonymous posts so you can be the new King of Europe for what it matters.
This is the stupidest account of what happened yet. Prevent a massacre by carrying out a massacre itself?
(Nikolle, 9 July 2015 11:14)
You clearly missed the fact that I was lampooning the rhetoric that Serbia was up against. However, the fact that Serbia was also up against terrorism is not disputable. I was unhappy with your crass insensitivity, and was suggesting that you take a better tone.
Please first admit the genocide in Bosnia's Jasenovac concentration camp that took place during WW2 where 600,000 perished (mostly Serbs).
(factman, 10 July 2015 18:01)
The good thing about this forum is it allows all the Serbs to post all their exaggerations and claims and high five each other and then lay down and cry the cry of the eternal victim. It is the perfect forum for impotents who want to blame everyone else without taking responsibility for their crimes.
The US Holocaust Museum puts the number of deaths at Jasenovic at between 77 and 99 thousand.
I guess it is up to individuals as to which source they believe. Knowing the many other posts of misinformation "factman" claims I think it will not be him.
Freely available on Wikipedia (and a million other places).
It would appear that you are withholding facts when discussing this matter and are attempting to influence readers with disinformation and propaganda.
Killed at Jasenovac
- Josip Broz Tito - 500,000–600,000 (perhaps the most damning of all estimates!)
- Encyclopedia of the Holocaust 600,000
- Simon Wiesenthal's Museum of Tolerance 600,000
- Yad Vashem Center 500k killed, 250k exiled, 200k converted to Catholocism
Killed at Jasenovac according to German military commanders
- 400,000 Serbs (Alexander Löhr)
- 350,000 Serbs (Lothar Rendulic)
- 300,000 (Edmund Glaise von Horstenau)
- 600–700,000 (Ernst Fick)
- 700,000 (Massenbach)
- 750,000 (Hermann Neubacher)
The FULL quote from the US Holocaust Museum:
"As of 2009, USHMM has estimated the Ustaše regime murdered between 66,000 and 99,000 people (mostly Serbs) in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945...... during the period of Ustaše rule, a total of between 330,000 and 390,000 ethnic Serbs and more than 30,000 Croatian Jews were killed either in Croatia or at Auschwitz-Birkenau."
"Determining the number of victims is highly problematic.... As more documents become accessible and more research is conducted into the records of the Ustaša regime, historians and demographers may be able to determine more precise figures than are now available.
Please first admit the genocide in Bosnia's Jasenovac concentration camp that took place during WW2 where 600,000 perished (mostly Serbs).
(factman, 10 July 2015 18:01)
You are in the wrong forum, dear. You are not in a Court here and we are not judges to determine whether the crime genocide was committed or not during the events that you describe. For that matter the crime of genocide did not even exist at that time.
No doubt that the event you describe was terrible, but if you want that event to be declared genocide by the International Community, you should go to the UNSC and ask it to establish a Court for prosecution of those responsible for the crimes committed at Jasenovac durin WW2. During the trial, the Court will establish whether the crime of genocide was committed and if those indicted are responsible for it. Once the Court delivers the verdict, you can come back here and ask us to admit the genocide, depending on what that verdict is.
It would have been better if my country had been persuaded to withdraw the resolution, but they cannot be surprised that Russia vetoed it, any more than I am when the US vetoes any resolution that is critical of Israel. Five members hold a veto and from time to time they will use it, often to support a political ally or to stick two fingers up at non-friendly countries, which for Russia is currently a long list. It's rare that the content of the resolution makes much difference in these cases. It's strange to criticise China for abstaining, especially as they would have been told that Russia was going to use a veto. Two vetoes is overkill.
“to show how alone Russia and Serbia are, in case anybody had doubts!”
****** Outside NATO lonely hearts club band we are not alone. Follow the events from Ufa city.
(rote, 9 July 2015 10:30)
Hey mate, Russia being alone was captured on video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2idKu3A9U at 41:35 in front of the world community. Just because you refuse to open your eyes to see the facts, it's not going to change those facts! Facts have this habit of being very stubborn...
Let me add this you were justifying RAPE how disgusting of you!!!
(Bilbao, 9 July 2015 21:23)
Dude, are you purposefully being stupid or are you just that dense by design? You're the one who made an outrageous comment before about all the women of Srebrenica being raped, which has absolutely no proof to it. I replied with a comment that is fitting your inappropriate statement which points out how unlikely that scenario could have been. Then you get offended in thinking I'm trivializing the whole thing and call ME disgusting?
Do I have to spell out how hypocritical you are?? Do I have to walk you through the counterargument or are you just going to change the subject and accuse me of trivializing rape because you have no other come back? You don't even know me dude, and you don't even know what I may or may not experienced. You want to make an outlandish statement and then get upset someone threw the accusation back in your face, then YOU'RE the disgusting one, especially if you accuse me of dismissing something that happened to ALL women in that f*cking war by ALL sides by misreading my post.
You either better brush up on your English or you better get your facts checked the next time you make an asinine statement. As if Serbs were the only people who employed rape as a weapon of terror in the 1990s or before. Yeah, real original. You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? It makes that sh!tstorm of a war all the easier for you to comprehend.
(the actual truth, 10 July 2015 05:32
Not that your discussion is worth venturing into, but I will. YOu claim he misread your post, but you did the same thing. He said the wormen were not set free they were raped, he did not say all women were raped nor do I think any reasonable person would think he meant every one of them was raped. But the rape of these women is well documented so it did happen and you DID try to trivialize it.
You and Peggy speak of time, soldiers were not killing 24 hours a day so there was down time and thousands of soldiers at probably a maximum 3 minutes a pop for Serbs, they could have covered a lot of women.
It is you who write the "legalistic" trash intended to split hairs on what counts as genocide.
You are correct that the word genocide may have only been "coined" as a word in 1948 -- but the "act" of genocide is as old as mankind and pre-dates the invention of the word.
For example:
Electricity was not invented, it was discovered (It always existed)
Therefore:
Gencocide was not invented in 1948, it was only discovered (it always existed).
It's strange to criticise China for abstaining, especially as they would have been told that Russia was going to use a veto. Two vetoes is overkill.
(ned taylor, 8 July 2015 22:20)
You can play it that way if you want, but abstaining means they do not want to go on record as supporting it, but do not have strong enough feelings to block it either so they will let the majority decide. Such as with Resolution 1244, in which case China abstained and Russia voted yes so it was carried.
A veto would have sent the message that no we are against it not that we just do not support it.
Big difference, huge difference.
So how long after, if this resolution was adopted, would the US and Western Europe claim to be stopping genocide early in other countries of interest. Syria is the first cab of the ranks and no need for sec council resolutions because all you need to claim is the moral responsibility and voila your corporatist democracy can run rampant. Russia and co ain't that stupid.
"Between its establishment in 1941 and its evacuation in April 1945, Croat authorities murdered thousands of people at Jasenovac. Among the victims were: between 45,000 and 52,000 Serb residents of the so-called Independent State of Croatia; between 12,000 and 20,000 Jews; between 15,000 and 20,000 Roma (Gypsies); and between 5,000 and 12,000 ethnic Croats and Muslims, who were political and religious opponents of the regime."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Jasenovac.html
"Due to differing views and lack of documentation, estimates for the number of Serbian victims in Croatia range widely, from 25,000 to more than one million. The most reliable figures place the number of Serbs killed by the Ustaša between 330,000 and 390,000, with 45,000 to 52,000 Serbs murdered in Jasenovac."
"It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945."
Never said that Jasenovac was not one of the worst humanitarian crimes in modern history, only that you inflate the numbers to make it worse.
Ironic though with the tragedy of the Serbian people they turn around and commit the very same crimes on others 50 years later.
But please don't minimize what the NDH did in WW2.
(factman, 11 July 2015 16:15)
Now, the stories that are told of the horrors at Jasenovac are some of the cruelest I have ever read. And if it were reported by your camp that 50,000 Serbs suffered these tragic ends, I would be on board to condemn it to the highest level. My issue is that on here I have read there were 500,000, 700,000 or a million Serbs who died at Jasenovac. I know of NO reason why any of the sources would have to diminish those numbers. But your idea of credible source and mine differ. So I have to wonder what is the motivation to inflate those numbers.
And the very same people who inflate those numbers are the ones who want to diminish the legitimacy of Srebrenica.
I do not wish to argue numbers with you any further and I will concede that the tragedy of Jasenovac was an unforgivable crime against the Serbian people.
But it also does nothing to absolve the Serbs of the crimes they committed in Bosnia nor Kosovo.
Most nearly all perpetrators of crimes in WW2 are dead should any still be alive they should still be prosecuted and punished as anyone who can be proven to commit crimes in Bosnia and Kosovo. Whether it be by their hand or an extension of their hand.
It is you who write the "legalistic" trash intended to split hairs on what counts as genocide.
You are correct that the word genocide may have only been "coined" as a word in 1948 -- but the "act" of genocide is as old as mankind and pre-dates the invention of the word.
Electricity was not invented, it was discovered (It always existed)
Therefore:
Gencocide was not invented in 1948, it was only discovered (it always existed).
(factman, 13 July 2015 18:21)
Well, you did not provide any argument to show that I'm wrong - so even in mentioning the word "trash" you still write trash lol. That "splitting hairs" makes the difference between somebody walking free or spending the rest of his/her life in jail.
We are not discussing dictionaries here; we're discussing crimes perpetrated by criminals. On dictionaries, everybody can write his/her own about how to define genocide. If you want to define something as genocide, by all means go ahead; it's as irrelevant as I were to define it - it's not going to send anybody to jail. 1 million people are going to have as many different opinions of what's genocide.
But on the crime of genocide there are some determinations made beyond reasonable doubt by the international community (not me, you or a dictionary) and the determination is that the crime of genocide has been committed (so far) twice in history: 1. Rwanda 1994 and 2. Srebrenica 1995 and the perpetrators have ended up in jail. End of the story...
I didn't say the Serb People ...I said in the Bosnian War the Serbs ,as in the Serb faction committed Genocide in Srebrinica .
I hope there would be some good serbs but where were the Anti Genocide Protests in Serbia?????
(Azir, 13 July 2015 13:39)
Whether Serbs are good or not for you has nothing to do with them being guilty or not guilty of genocide.
The "Serb faction" did not committ genocide. Genocide is a crime for which there is individual criminal responsibility; there is not such a thing of a "faction" of whatever ethinicity being guilty of genocide. Otherwise you are no better than people like Peggy who advocate the extermination of all 14 year old boys because the faction of "Fourteen year old boys are known to fight in a Muslim army".
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