I think Greece will have a much better chance with Russia and China and default on its debt than with the EU and US and unsustainable debt. The global geopolitical scene is changing every day in favour of the BRICS.
(Zoran, 7 July 2015 02:10)
Not sure what "with Russia and China" means!!! Do you mean that a person in China, who on average have a GDP less than half of Greece's, will sacrifice the food of his children so that a Greek can retire early?!!!! In addition what gurantees that Greece with repay Russia and China back?! Even if the global geopolitical scene changes every day in favour of the BRICS (whatever that means), that does not mean that the BRICS (which are all poorer than Greece) have money to waste so that Greeks can keep their higher standards of living. How do you come up with such trash?!
------------
Watch this space my friends. Greece will show the path to the alternative.
(Zoran, 6 July 2015 15:20)
Yup, it showed it already if you've seen the scenes from the Greek banks & ATM machines in the last few days. I would not wish that path of losing the savings of a lifetime to anybody.
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My friend, the original poster referred to the countries, not the people so I made a point of proving him wrong. Perhaps he wasn't being clear.
(Zoran, 7 July 2015 01:57)
You just proved that you have no clue lol How many more idiotic statements are you going to make today?! So, Monaco is poorer than Kosovo according to your logic!!!
Zoran, and if Greece defaults who would pay salaries and pensions there.
(dinarisanarabcurrency, 7 July 2015 14:16)
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Greece will still have an economy, agriculture, tourism, etc... to pay its bills but it won't have the billions in interest to pay its former creditors. It will have to revert to the Drachma though.
Zoran, and if Greece defaults who would pay salaries and pensions there. USA is down the toilet as well, so it can't work like it did for you guys under Sloba when diaspora sent tons of cash.
Oh I see, you did not mean financial help, that is money to pay pensions and salaries (which is what Greece desperately needs right now). You meant that if Russia builds the pipeline and if China invests in feta cheese and olive oil, Greece will prosper again.
(Reader, 6 July 2015 20:06)
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I think Greece will have a much better chance with Russia and China and default on its debt than with the EU and US and unsustainable debt. The global geopolitical scene is changing every day in favour of the BRICS.
Zoran, GDP is not the same as GDP per capita.
(500billiondinar, 6 July 2015 22:20)
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My friend, the original poster referred to the countries, not the people so I made a point of proving him wrong. Perhaps he wasn't being clear.
Zoran, GDP is not the same as GDP per capita. There are thousands, if not even millions of chinese working in Russia for peanuts. LOL, people from "the oriental giant" have to go and work with uzbeks in a dive like Russia.
(ohdear, 6 July 2015 16:42)
Actually, I am Dutch and their average IQ is 110. Mine was tested twice and ranges between 129 and 131.
And if you don't believe that the financial system is a ponzi scheme than your IQ is that of a worm.
Oh I see, you did not mean financial help, that is money to pay pensions and salaries (which is what Greece desperately needs right now). You meant that if Russia builds the pipeline and if China invests in feta cheese and olive oil, Greece will prosper again.
How is Greece giving a lesson in democracy to Europe?
Asking a debtor if he wants to pay the money back? Do we need to vote to know the answer to that?
I wish I could vote too if I want to pay that loan I took to buy my house, and give the bank some lesson in democracy and show what a proud guy I am.
I could easily predict what is going to happen in the ground in chronological order in Greece, it is fairly clear - it happened in many countries before, most famously Argentina.
- The banks have no more euros and the ECB will not lend them more. So capital controls will stay in place, no matter what they say, for the general public at least.
- The government and all public companies will stop paying everyone except pensioners and public servants, sending even more businesses under, deepening the crisis.
- Food and energy will stop arriving as there is no way to pay for them and so the government will raid the banks for hard currency, and the EU will have to dispatch emergency aid.
- Businesses within the EU will stop all transaction with Greece (and Greek credit cards will stop working abroad).
- The drachma will be back within a month, and will devalue by 50%, which will translate into hyperinflation.
Eventually the situation will stabilise in 2016. Greece will remain in the EU (it will *really* need the aid), but will have a pariah state for the next decade. Ugly.
And all of that for the political ambition of Tsipras. He won't be remembered kindly.
Zoran,
Your theory has a few serious flaws that Serbs tend to ignore.
Out of the BRICS countries the only one that is actually in a financial position to really help Greece is China. Russia to a smaller extent.
But they have different financial policies than the EU very much so, and if you researched the "help" given to Serbia you could recognize this.
Russia wants material possession in exchange for any money input. Like Gazprom owns the energy sector in Serbia, Greece would have to fork over their assets for Russian money. China is different, their loans benefit the Chinese economy. China would lend Greece the much needed money to build infrastructure but instead of creating much needed Greek jobs, it would be tied to paying Chinese contractors to do the work.
What you say is true as far as bankruptcy, but the problem is that Greece does not only need the money for the debts it needs money to stay solvent or continue to pay its daily bills inside Greece. To get any influx in money you either go back to the original lenders or to new ones. Origninal ones may take a chance "with stipulations" in order to regain some of what they lost. New lenders will be leary and money will come at very high prices. It won't be because "we like the Greeks and want to give them free money"
There is no court system that absolves countries of debt when they default similar to bankruptcy laws, it is up to individuals to forgive debt.
LOL well if you're widely known as a village idiot around here, why stop being one today, right? Life in Greece today is still way better than that dump you call Albania. Look at all the Albanians working as cheap labor there. There's probably some among your own tribal clan.
(Albo Troll Wranger, 6 July 2015 17:27)
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that with $450B+ of free money and continuous support from the West, for now over 100 years, of course Greeks will live better, indeed they should have been living much better. But borrowing money was pretty much the only merit they have in the standard of living they enjoy..... times are changing though....
I have visited Greece and several Balkan countries, and the bureaucratic system in Greece, is the same, if not inferior to that of other less developed Balkan countries. Same goes for workforce qualification, work culture, etc.
China is even poorer than Russia.
(dreamon, 6 July 2015 15:45)
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LOL! You are funny, since we are talking about countries here, the CIA is saying China is the richest country in the world, Russia is 7th. Oh, India is 4th and Brazil is 8th.
That's the only language these monsters understand.
(Ari Gold, 6 July 2015 09:42)
I like this one comment of yours but the below Swedish text of 1697 will kill you. To read it you will need some knowledge of the Russian though.
«Placzewnaja recz na pogrebenie togho prez segho welemozneiszago i wysokorozdennagho knjazja i ghossudarja Karolusa odinatsetogho swidskich, gothskich i wandalskich (i proczaja) korola, slavnagho, blaghogowennagho i milostiwagho naszego ghossudaja (!), nynjeze u bogha spasennagho. Kogda jegho korolewskogo weliczestwa ot duszi ostawlennoe tjelo, s podobajuszczjusae korolewskoju scestju, i serserdecznym wsich poddannych rydaniem byst pogrebenno w Stokolnje (!) dwatset-scetwertago nowemrja ljeta ot woploszczenia bogha slowa 1697″.
Arnie it was the funeral service speech after Karl XI written by the Ceremonymeister of the Swedish Court Uhan Gabriel Sparvenfeld. The full text was of 6 pages and all of them in Russian. How can you explain this language ? When you fail to please ask me for help. Also tell me what are the real numbers of the Swedish kings ?
I suppose all the surrounding countries sealing their borders from the expected civil war about to start in bankrupt poor Greece where people have no food to eat.
(Azir, 6 July 2015 11:41)
LOL well if you're widely known as a village idiot around here, why stop being one today, right? Life in Greece today is still way better than that dump you call Albania. Look at all the Albanians working as cheap labor there. There's probably some among your own tribal clan.
FYI Zoran, Russia and China said NO to helping Greece financially.
(Teodor Muzaka 1389, 6 July 2015 15:35)
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Of course they did. They said no to bailing Greece out, which would essentially mean giving their money away to the US and EU. However, now that Greece has defaulted, there is nothing to pay to the EU. The debt is wiped but there will be consequences facing Greece now, so that is where Russia, China and the BRICS come in. Firstly with mutually beneficial investments and secondly with helping Greece fend off another velvet revolution that is most likely planned.
Russia and China would have been stupid to help Greece financially. The debt was unsustainable and they would have lost also. Now only the EU and US lose, mainly the tax payer.
"you bail out the person who owes the debt, not the person who its owed to".
Dear god, you really don't understand what happened now, do you? German, French and Dutch banks and pension funds knowingly took risks in Greece. Risks get rewarded. Hedgefunds take the biggest risk and get the biggest rewards. Everybody knew the Greek cooked their books and had high public spending (so had the Italians). The EU knew it when they allowed Greece into the EU and into the Euro. Then it all came tumbling down. The banks had a problem. Just like Mr. Panos says (google him): "if you lend me small money, I have a problem. If you lend me big money, you have a problem". These banks had the problem that they had outstanding credits that they could not retrieve if Greece would default on their debts. So that is why Van Rompuy, Merkel and Sarkozy came up with the cunning plan to have the EU taxpayer pay for it. So the EU, ECB and IMF gave money to Greece that then paid off the banks. A British NGO calculated that of the bailout only 10% reached Greek society, the rest was used to pay off the debt to the lenders. Now, that bail out was yet another loan for which EU taxpayers stand as guarantees. Greece needs to pay off that loan and there is a debt plan until 2050 I believe.
Again, taxpayers should not bail out banks. That is not true capitalism.
LOL Zoran, you have no clue. Nobody helps somebody famous for not repaying debts back.
(Reader, 6 July 2015 16:17)
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LOL Reader, the debts aren't Russia's and China's. They are essentially debts of the EU tax payer and some nation banks. Now that Greece has essentially abandoned the EU, I don't think Greece is expecting help from them either.
Given the situation they are in, they are more inclined to accept help from the alternative BRICS. That won't come freely so it goes something like telling the US to get lost if it tries to block a Russian pipeline going through Greece, which helps both nations financially.
Hilarious how some Albanians here are against the "No" vote when they've proven to be the worst people with making honest money in Europe, have no economic skills, and have constantly begged others to bail them out of problems they can't solve on their own. Does their hatred for others force them to take such illogical positions? If so, it only proves how brainwashed they are. But if they were the ones who voted no and if their country was a screwed up as Greece (it's more screwed up because Greece actually had international investment - who invests anything where Albanians live?) they'd be proclaiming some "Albanian pride" thing.
"Hilarious how some Albanians here are against the "No""
I am neither for a no or a yes, it matters not one iota to me how they vote, however, there is this perception that Greece is standing up to unfair and bullying demands that I personally find odd. Not one financial institution has asked the Greek gov. to borrow money, not one. it has decided to do that out of its own accord and now the fact that it finds itself uinable to pay it back, seems to be lauded as a courageous act, a blow against oppressors when all it is is seeking to restructure its debt on its own terms. oh, and whatever you have to say for piss poor Albania, it has never defaulted on its debt
Zoran, where would Russia and China get the money for that. Why should russian pensioner have its Pension cut just so greek or a serb can continuous buy in german cars and eva Ding taxes. China is even poorer than Russia.
LOL!! You think Russia and China will bail Greece out of its unsustainable debt? You think they will give money to the corrupt Western system? No my friend, Greece will go bankrupt and the debt will be wiped!
Russia, China and the BRICS will be there to assist Greece in this difficult time. What will result is a newly freed Greece that has escaped the slavery imposed on it by the West. Greece is showing the world the way to the alternative. China's power has been underestimated.
(Zoran, 6 July 2015 13:30)
FYI Zoran, Russia and China said NO to helping Greece financially.
Go to the bank and demand a loan for a house and set your own terms and tell them take it or leave it, and see what happens.
(too funny, 6 July 2015 14:07)
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Greece already got its loans and it is not paying them back, it already defaulted on one repayment and it will continue to do so. In other words, it has essentially declared bankruptcy and the population have supported it. Once bankrupt my friend, you are debt free and there is no point negotiating with the very same institutions that got you there in the first place.
If China and Russia now help Greece through these difficult times then we will all see a viable alternative, Serbia, Spain and the rest included. We have all heard there is no alternative but now is the time to prove otherwise.
I think Greece will revert to the Drachma and it probably has enough strength in its own economy to keep its head above water without having to pay the interest demanded by their previous slave drivers.
Watch this space my friends. Greece will show the path to the alternative. Not to worry though, the EU still has the loyalty of Albanians. LOL!
Boon UK:
"why the Germans never have financial problems?"
Here is a link to world debt:
http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html
Germans played it well. The profited the most from the Euro and their cheap reunifaction plan funded Euro they borrowed to whomever wanted to borrow. They exposed themselves too much. And then they had a problem when TSHF. Even more so if you realize that Deutsche Bank is exposed to 50 trillion Euro worth of derivatives. That and the pensionfunds were at risk because they overexposed themselves.
Simply the Greece people are Lazy so ist the Balkan as a whole Lazy why the Germans never have financial problems?
couz the don't sleep till 10 like the balkans people do.
(Zoran, 6 July 2015 13:19)
You are too funny!
Greece does not have the money to pay its bills, it needs more money from the EU now to stay afloat and not totally collapse. They need money to allow their banks to open and let people withdraw their own money out.
But you think, its ok, they can turn to the BRICS bank whenever it opens in the next 18 months and if it gives ALL its capital to Greece they will be OK, of course that money has to be paid back also.
The Brics bank is not going to open its doors with a 100 billion dollars, the commitment of investments is over a number of years to total 100 billion. Greece will need 15-20 billion initially to stay alive. So without EU money Greece is circling the drain and by the time Brics gets around to helping it will be too late.
You and others think that Greece and Serbia can just demand money from the EU on your terms and that these countries should not have any say about it. It does not work that way.
Go to the bank and demand a loan for a house and set your own terms and tell them take it or leave it, and see what happens. You could get away with it IF you really do not need the money and the association with you would be financially beneficial in the future. But I doubt you can guarantee that for yourself and neither can Greece or Serbia.
As of now Greece does not have a plan B, its going to be interesting to see how they pull this off.
oh dear, I like you how you put irresponsible lenders, as if somehow debt is a one way street. and by the way, you bail out the person who owes the debt, not the person who its owed to. that person will always have an asset, unless it agrees to write it off. scratch your post further and we come across words like zee Germans, which suggests a certain racism on your part. The Greek gov. has been found to have cooked its books before, this is legitimate gov. elected by its own population engaging shoddy deals to shore up its finances. now, it wants a fresh start with no strings attach. when one borrows, it can't assume that the lender will automatically write it off, that ultimately depends on the creditor. if Greece can't pay it off, then it has to sell whatever assets or gold reserves it holds to break clean. this is what balancing is. from what i read, the money that was borrowed was not used to improve its industry or economy, it was used to bloat an already over-bloated public sector. greece wants to be bailed out, but on terms it dictates to those who it has borrowed from, most bizarre
I don't know what will happen now..
The situation is really - really bad, catastrophic.
All i must tell is: I support Greece.
Greece is not is sale.
(6 July 2015 11:41) - i don't know if you are an Albanian, but we have suffered the same in 90, so i think in all the Balkan countries just we must understand better the Greek people and should support them.
Congratulations to Greece and I am happy to see an "Alternative to the EU" developing quite strongly. Greece could have continued to be a slave to the EU and US or as it has now voted, to free itself!
Lets see the alternative develop, shortly, Russia and China will come to help Greece. Not to help service its debt as that debt will be wiped clean... but to help Greece with a fresh clean start, one aligned with Russia, China, it's new world bank and the BRICS.
If the model succeeds, it will show the path to the new and better alternative, one where small countries can succeed instead of being enslaved. Looks like Russia, China and the BRICS are ready to take over where the US and EU have failed.
Serbia will be there soon, it was nearly bankrupted following the Western enslavement system and it will soon look towards Russia and China for a new start also. The cracks and weakness in the failing western system is fairly obvious now.
Further evidence that everything is about to change in the Balkans.
First, this is a likely death blow to all Balkan EU aspirations. After getting shafted for upwards of $200B, The North will never again absorb "primitive" economies into their rich boy's club. From here on, its all about CEFTA and who dominates regional trade. In that equation, its Greece well ahead of everyone with Serbia a distant second.
Second, heavy-handed foreign involvement in the Balkans is over. Russia will soon knock at the door for gas-hungry Balkan economies. In this equation, "the cost" of Serbia's disposition just went way up. Time to be nice to Serbia again.
Third, the big losers are those who placed excessive hope on getting into the EU (at the cost of all else): Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo.
Fourth, the UK will leave next. And if they dont leave, their "involvement" will only be a charade. Portugal will likely follow.
They will financialy bail you out and together you clowns will rule your circus.
(Azir, 6 July 2015 11:41)
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LOL!! You think Russia and China will bail Greece out of its unsustainable debt? You think they will give money to the corrupt Western system? No my friend, Greece will go bankrupt and the debt will be wiped!
Russia, China and the BRICS will be there to assist Greece in this difficult time. What will result is a newly freed Greece that has escaped the slavery imposed on it by the West. Greece is showing the world the way to the alternative. China's power has been underestimated.
Anyone who was dumb enough to loman money to the people who were under turkish rule for hundreds of years desire their losses. Balkanites can forget the illusions of even China building them out. What is the point of givi ng money to countries where half of the population Works for the government and other half for tourist industry, it is a botomless pit.
"Greek were not consulted if they wanted the austerity program in the first place"
Did the Greek gov. consult its people whether they wanted to borrow as much money as they did and cripple their country with debt? What is this, we borrow but we don't want to pay it back?
Nikolle, you don't quote me fully:
"The EU citizens unlike the Greek were not consulted if they wanted the austerity program in the first place".
Previous Greek governments borrowed money (cheap German reunification Euro that functioned as a hidden export subsidy for zee Germans and kept German labour costs down making German products more competitive) in order to keep their election promises. That is what I meant when I said that the Greek are collectively responsible for their mess. BUT...the lenders gave them all they wanted to borrow very well knowing that Greece is a basket case with dubious finances. They took a risk. Lenders get a reward for taking risks ....but they run risks. In the case of Greece it all went wrong. According to pure capitalism, you need to take your losses in such cases. But they were bailed out by the EU tax payers (who did not have anything to say about that). Does anybody bail you out when you make a bad investment? Don't think so.
Is it fair that tax payers bail out irresponsible lenders? Don't think so either.
If Greece should default, then it are the EU tax payers that are on the hook to pay off their debt. Funny thing is -just like in the US after Lehmann brothers- that the money to pay off the debt was probably even borrowed from the same institutions that were bailed out with the Greek bail out. With interest of course. The financial system is pretty f'ed up because it is a system that privatizes profits and socializes losses.
(Dwight, 6 July 2015 11:07)
The thing is, in the EU you can only vote for the candidates of your own country not from another country. Not that I would have voted for him. Anyway, he was selected by the parties in the EP. So I give you credit there. The EC of course was not at all open to election. In some EU countries you can vote who becomes president. In the EU you cannot.
Don't worry Greece your trusted and beloved neighbors the Serbs and Russians that also share with you their cultural,historical,religious and spiteful traits will come to your rescue.
They will financialy bail you out and together you clowns will rule your circus.
I knew Greeks were dumb but I didn't realize how dumb until after the suicide vote on Sunday.
I suppose all the surrounding countries sealing their borders from the expected civil war about to start in bankrupt poor Greece where people have no food to eat.
"He said that the democratic will of the Greek voters must be respected, but also the will of the voters from 18 other Eurozone members to support the austerity program."
Really? In many countries there is no support for it at all. The EU citizens unlike the Greek were not consulted if they wanted the austerity program in the first place. That was simply imposed on them by unelected burocrats such as Schulz.
EU citizens were not consulted if they wanted to bail out banks that made bad investments in Greece cause that is what that bailout was about. The Greek might collectively be responsible for the mess they are in but irresponsible lenders gave them the money to do that. These knew very well they would be bailed out.
The Greek gave the EU a lesson in democracy. Oh, the EU and the ECB will go after them (the IMF already admitted that Greece's debt is unpayable) cause the very undemocratic EU demands submission.
Yes in the EU, democracy is "irresponsible". Stupid Greeks, you are supposed to let the bureaucrats in Brussels dictate your laws to you and shut up about it.
Seriously though, what a bloody nose Greece gave to the EU yesterday. That's the only language these monsters understand.
LOL well if you're widely known as a village idiot around here, why stop being one today, right? Life in Greece today is still way better than that dump you call Albania. Look at all the Albanians working as cheap labor there. There's probably some among your own tribal clan.
(Albo Troll Wranger, 6 July 2015 17:27)
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that with $450B+ of free money and continuous support from the West, for now over 100 years, of course Greeks will live better, indeed they should have been living much better. But borrowing money was pretty much the only merit they have in the standard of living they enjoy..... times are changing though....
I have visited Greece and several Balkan countries, and the bureaucratic system in Greece, is the same, if not inferior to that of other less developed Balkan countries. Same goes for workforce qualification, work culture, etc.
"Greek were not consulted if they wanted the austerity program in the first place"
Did the Greek gov. consult its people whether they wanted to borrow as much money as they did and cripple their country with debt? What is this, we borrow but we don't want to pay it back?
Yes in the EU, democracy is "irresponsible". Stupid Greeks, you are supposed to let the bureaucrats in Brussels dictate your laws to you and shut up about it.
Seriously though, what a bloody nose Greece gave to the EU yesterday. That's the only language these monsters understand.
"He said that the democratic will of the Greek voters must be respected, but also the will of the voters from 18 other Eurozone members to support the austerity program."
Really? In many countries there is no support for it at all. The EU citizens unlike the Greek were not consulted if they wanted the austerity program in the first place. That was simply imposed on them by unelected burocrats such as Schulz.
EU citizens were not consulted if they wanted to bail out banks that made bad investments in Greece cause that is what that bailout was about. The Greek might collectively be responsible for the mess they are in but irresponsible lenders gave them the money to do that. These knew very well they would be bailed out.
The Greek gave the EU a lesson in democracy. Oh, the EU and the ECB will go after them (the IMF already admitted that Greece's debt is unpayable) cause the very undemocratic EU demands submission.
(Zoran, 6 July 2015 13:19)
You are too funny!
Greece does not have the money to pay its bills, it needs more money from the EU now to stay afloat and not totally collapse. They need money to allow their banks to open and let people withdraw their own money out.
But you think, its ok, they can turn to the BRICS bank whenever it opens in the next 18 months and if it gives ALL its capital to Greece they will be OK, of course that money has to be paid back also.
The Brics bank is not going to open its doors with a 100 billion dollars, the commitment of investments is over a number of years to total 100 billion. Greece will need 15-20 billion initially to stay alive. So without EU money Greece is circling the drain and by the time Brics gets around to helping it will be too late.
You and others think that Greece and Serbia can just demand money from the EU on your terms and that these countries should not have any say about it. It does not work that way.
Go to the bank and demand a loan for a house and set your own terms and tell them take it or leave it, and see what happens. You could get away with it IF you really do not need the money and the association with you would be financially beneficial in the future. But I doubt you can guarantee that for yourself and neither can Greece or Serbia.
As of now Greece does not have a plan B, its going to be interesting to see how they pull this off.
"Hilarious how some Albanians here are against the "No""
I am neither for a no or a yes, it matters not one iota to me how they vote, however, there is this perception that Greece is standing up to unfair and bullying demands that I personally find odd. Not one financial institution has asked the Greek gov. to borrow money, not one. it has decided to do that out of its own accord and now the fact that it finds itself uinable to pay it back, seems to be lauded as a courageous act, a blow against oppressors when all it is is seeking to restructure its debt on its own terms. oh, and whatever you have to say for piss poor Albania, it has never defaulted on its debt
I don't know what will happen now..
The situation is really - really bad, catastrophic.
All i must tell is: I support Greece.
Greece is not is sale.
(6 July 2015 11:41) - i don't know if you are an Albanian, but we have suffered the same in 90, so i think in all the Balkan countries just we must understand better the Greek people and should support them.
LOL!! You think Russia and China will bail Greece out of its unsustainable debt? You think they will give money to the corrupt Western system? No my friend, Greece will go bankrupt and the debt will be wiped!
Russia, China and the BRICS will be there to assist Greece in this difficult time. What will result is a newly freed Greece that has escaped the slavery imposed on it by the West. Greece is showing the world the way to the alternative. China's power has been underestimated.
(Zoran, 6 July 2015 13:30)
FYI Zoran, Russia and China said NO to helping Greece financially.
I suppose all the surrounding countries sealing their borders from the expected civil war about to start in bankrupt poor Greece where people have no food to eat.
(Azir, 6 July 2015 11:41)
LOL well if you're widely known as a village idiot around here, why stop being one today, right? Life in Greece today is still way better than that dump you call Albania. Look at all the Albanians working as cheap labor there. There's probably some among your own tribal clan.
Congratulations to Greece and I am happy to see an "Alternative to the EU" developing quite strongly. Greece could have continued to be a slave to the EU and US or as it has now voted, to free itself!
Lets see the alternative develop, shortly, Russia and China will come to help Greece. Not to help service its debt as that debt will be wiped clean... but to help Greece with a fresh clean start, one aligned with Russia, China, it's new world bank and the BRICS.
If the model succeeds, it will show the path to the new and better alternative, one where small countries can succeed instead of being enslaved. Looks like Russia, China and the BRICS are ready to take over where the US and EU have failed.
Serbia will be there soon, it was nearly bankrupted following the Western enslavement system and it will soon look towards Russia and China for a new start also. The cracks and weakness in the failing western system is fairly obvious now.
oh dear, I like you how you put irresponsible lenders, as if somehow debt is a one way street. and by the way, you bail out the person who owes the debt, not the person who its owed to. that person will always have an asset, unless it agrees to write it off. scratch your post further and we come across words like zee Germans, which suggests a certain racism on your part. The Greek gov. has been found to have cooked its books before, this is legitimate gov. elected by its own population engaging shoddy deals to shore up its finances. now, it wants a fresh start with no strings attach. when one borrows, it can't assume that the lender will automatically write it off, that ultimately depends on the creditor. if Greece can't pay it off, then it has to sell whatever assets or gold reserves it holds to break clean. this is what balancing is. from what i read, the money that was borrowed was not used to improve its industry or economy, it was used to bloat an already over-bloated public sector. greece wants to be bailed out, but on terms it dictates to those who it has borrowed from, most bizarre
How is Greece giving a lesson in democracy to Europe?
Asking a debtor if he wants to pay the money back? Do we need to vote to know the answer to that?
I wish I could vote too if I want to pay that loan I took to buy my house, and give the bank some lesson in democracy and show what a proud guy I am.
I could easily predict what is going to happen in the ground in chronological order in Greece, it is fairly clear - it happened in many countries before, most famously Argentina.
- The banks have no more euros and the ECB will not lend them more. So capital controls will stay in place, no matter what they say, for the general public at least.
- The government and all public companies will stop paying everyone except pensioners and public servants, sending even more businesses under, deepening the crisis.
- Food and energy will stop arriving as there is no way to pay for them and so the government will raid the banks for hard currency, and the EU will have to dispatch emergency aid.
- Businesses within the EU will stop all transaction with Greece (and Greek credit cards will stop working abroad).
- The drachma will be back within a month, and will devalue by 50%, which will translate into hyperinflation.
Eventually the situation will stabilise in 2016. Greece will remain in the EU (it will *really* need the aid), but will have a pariah state for the next decade. Ugly.
And all of that for the political ambition of Tsipras. He won't be remembered kindly.
Don't worry Greece your trusted and beloved neighbors the Serbs and Russians that also share with you their cultural,historical,religious and spiteful traits will come to your rescue.
They will financialy bail you out and together you clowns will rule your circus.
I knew Greeks were dumb but I didn't realize how dumb until after the suicide vote on Sunday.
I suppose all the surrounding countries sealing their borders from the expected civil war about to start in bankrupt poor Greece where people have no food to eat.
Further evidence that everything is about to change in the Balkans.
First, this is a likely death blow to all Balkan EU aspirations. After getting shafted for upwards of $200B, The North will never again absorb "primitive" economies into their rich boy's club. From here on, its all about CEFTA and who dominates regional trade. In that equation, its Greece well ahead of everyone with Serbia a distant second.
Second, heavy-handed foreign involvement in the Balkans is over. Russia will soon knock at the door for gas-hungry Balkan economies. In this equation, "the cost" of Serbia's disposition just went way up. Time to be nice to Serbia again.
Third, the big losers are those who placed excessive hope on getting into the EU (at the cost of all else): Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo.
Fourth, the UK will leave next. And if they dont leave, their "involvement" will only be a charade. Portugal will likely follow.
Simply the Greece people are Lazy so ist the Balkan as a whole Lazy why the Germans never have financial problems?
couz the don't sleep till 10 like the balkans people do.
Oh I see, you did not mean financial help, that is money to pay pensions and salaries (which is what Greece desperately needs right now). You meant that if Russia builds the pipeline and if China invests in feta cheese and olive oil, Greece will prosper again.
(Dwight, 6 July 2015 11:07)
The thing is, in the EU you can only vote for the candidates of your own country not from another country. Not that I would have voted for him. Anyway, he was selected by the parties in the EP. So I give you credit there. The EC of course was not at all open to election. In some EU countries you can vote who becomes president. In the EU you cannot.
Anyone who was dumb enough to loman money to the people who were under turkish rule for hundreds of years desire their losses. Balkanites can forget the illusions of even China building them out. What is the point of givi ng money to countries where half of the population Works for the government and other half for tourist industry, it is a botomless pit.
They will financialy bail you out and together you clowns will rule your circus.
(Azir, 6 July 2015 11:41)
--
LOL!! You think Russia and China will bail Greece out of its unsustainable debt? You think they will give money to the corrupt Western system? No my friend, Greece will go bankrupt and the debt will be wiped!
Russia, China and the BRICS will be there to assist Greece in this difficult time. What will result is a newly freed Greece that has escaped the slavery imposed on it by the West. Greece is showing the world the way to the alternative. China's power has been underestimated.
Hilarious how some Albanians here are against the "No" vote when they've proven to be the worst people with making honest money in Europe, have no economic skills, and have constantly begged others to bail them out of problems they can't solve on their own. Does their hatred for others force them to take such illogical positions? If so, it only proves how brainwashed they are. But if they were the ones who voted no and if their country was a screwed up as Greece (it's more screwed up because Greece actually had international investment - who invests anything where Albanians live?) they'd be proclaiming some "Albanian pride" thing.
Go to the bank and demand a loan for a house and set your own terms and tell them take it or leave it, and see what happens.
(too funny, 6 July 2015 14:07)
--
Greece already got its loans and it is not paying them back, it already defaulted on one repayment and it will continue to do so. In other words, it has essentially declared bankruptcy and the population have supported it. Once bankrupt my friend, you are debt free and there is no point negotiating with the very same institutions that got you there in the first place.
If China and Russia now help Greece through these difficult times then we will all see a viable alternative, Serbia, Spain and the rest included. We have all heard there is no alternative but now is the time to prove otherwise.
I think Greece will revert to the Drachma and it probably has enough strength in its own economy to keep its head above water without having to pay the interest demanded by their previous slave drivers.
Watch this space my friends. Greece will show the path to the alternative. Not to worry though, the EU still has the loyalty of Albanians. LOL!
"you bail out the person who owes the debt, not the person who its owed to".
Dear god, you really don't understand what happened now, do you? German, French and Dutch banks and pension funds knowingly took risks in Greece. Risks get rewarded. Hedgefunds take the biggest risk and get the biggest rewards. Everybody knew the Greek cooked their books and had high public spending (so had the Italians). The EU knew it when they allowed Greece into the EU and into the Euro. Then it all came tumbling down. The banks had a problem. Just like Mr. Panos says (google him): "if you lend me small money, I have a problem. If you lend me big money, you have a problem". These banks had the problem that they had outstanding credits that they could not retrieve if Greece would default on their debts. So that is why Van Rompuy, Merkel and Sarkozy came up with the cunning plan to have the EU taxpayer pay for it. So the EU, ECB and IMF gave money to Greece that then paid off the banks. A British NGO calculated that of the bailout only 10% reached Greek society, the rest was used to pay off the debt to the lenders. Now, that bail out was yet another loan for which EU taxpayers stand as guarantees. Greece needs to pay off that loan and there is a debt plan until 2050 I believe.
Again, taxpayers should not bail out banks. That is not true capitalism.
Zoran, where would Russia and China get the money for that. Why should russian pensioner have its Pension cut just so greek or a serb can continuous buy in german cars and eva Ding taxes. China is even poorer than Russia.
Boon UK:
"why the Germans never have financial problems?"
Here is a link to world debt:
http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html
Germans played it well. The profited the most from the Euro and their cheap reunifaction plan funded Euro they borrowed to whomever wanted to borrow. They exposed themselves too much. And then they had a problem when TSHF. Even more so if you realize that Deutsche Bank is exposed to 50 trillion Euro worth of derivatives. That and the pensionfunds were at risk because they overexposed themselves.
LOL Zoran, you have no clue. Nobody helps somebody famous for not repaying debts back.
(Reader, 6 July 2015 16:17)
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LOL Reader, the debts aren't Russia's and China's. They are essentially debts of the EU tax payer and some nation banks. Now that Greece has essentially abandoned the EU, I don't think Greece is expecting help from them either.
Given the situation they are in, they are more inclined to accept help from the alternative BRICS. That won't come freely so it goes something like telling the US to get lost if it tries to block a Russian pipeline going through Greece, which helps both nations financially.
FYI Zoran, Russia and China said NO to helping Greece financially.
(Teodor Muzaka 1389, 6 July 2015 15:35)
--
Of course they did. They said no to bailing Greece out, which would essentially mean giving their money away to the US and EU. However, now that Greece has defaulted, there is nothing to pay to the EU. The debt is wiped but there will be consequences facing Greece now, so that is where Russia, China and the BRICS come in. Firstly with mutually beneficial investments and secondly with helping Greece fend off another velvet revolution that is most likely planned.
Russia and China would have been stupid to help Greece financially. The debt was unsustainable and they would have lost also. Now only the EU and US lose, mainly the tax payer.
Zoran,
Your theory has a few serious flaws that Serbs tend to ignore.
Out of the BRICS countries the only one that is actually in a financial position to really help Greece is China. Russia to a smaller extent.
But they have different financial policies than the EU very much so, and if you researched the "help" given to Serbia you could recognize this.
Russia wants material possession in exchange for any money input. Like Gazprom owns the energy sector in Serbia, Greece would have to fork over their assets for Russian money. China is different, their loans benefit the Chinese economy. China would lend Greece the much needed money to build infrastructure but instead of creating much needed Greek jobs, it would be tied to paying Chinese contractors to do the work.
What you say is true as far as bankruptcy, but the problem is that Greece does not only need the money for the debts it needs money to stay solvent or continue to pay its daily bills inside Greece. To get any influx in money you either go back to the original lenders or to new ones. Origninal ones may take a chance "with stipulations" in order to regain some of what they lost. New lenders will be leary and money will come at very high prices. It won't be because "we like the Greeks and want to give them free money"
There is no court system that absolves countries of debt when they default similar to bankruptcy laws, it is up to individuals to forgive debt.
Nikolle, you don't quote me fully:
"The EU citizens unlike the Greek were not consulted if they wanted the austerity program in the first place".
Previous Greek governments borrowed money (cheap German reunification Euro that functioned as a hidden export subsidy for zee Germans and kept German labour costs down making German products more competitive) in order to keep their election promises. That is what I meant when I said that the Greek are collectively responsible for their mess. BUT...the lenders gave them all they wanted to borrow very well knowing that Greece is a basket case with dubious finances. They took a risk. Lenders get a reward for taking risks ....but they run risks. In the case of Greece it all went wrong. According to pure capitalism, you need to take your losses in such cases. But they were bailed out by the EU tax payers (who did not have anything to say about that). Does anybody bail you out when you make a bad investment? Don't think so.
Is it fair that tax payers bail out irresponsible lenders? Don't think so either.
If Greece should default, then it are the EU tax payers that are on the hook to pay off their debt. Funny thing is -just like in the US after Lehmann brothers- that the money to pay off the debt was probably even borrowed from the same institutions that were bailed out with the Greek bail out. With interest of course. The financial system is pretty f'ed up because it is a system that privatizes profits and socializes losses.
China is even poorer than Russia.
(dreamon, 6 July 2015 15:45)
--
LOL! You are funny, since we are talking about countries here, the CIA is saying China is the richest country in the world, Russia is 7th. Oh, India is 4th and Brazil is 8th.
Oh I see, you did not mean financial help, that is money to pay pensions and salaries (which is what Greece desperately needs right now). You meant that if Russia builds the pipeline and if China invests in feta cheese and olive oil, Greece will prosper again.
(Reader, 6 July 2015 20:06)
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I think Greece will have a much better chance with Russia and China and default on its debt than with the EU and US and unsustainable debt. The global geopolitical scene is changing every day in favour of the BRICS.
(ohdear, 6 July 2015 16:42)
Actually, I am Dutch and their average IQ is 110. Mine was tested twice and ranges between 129 and 131.
And if you don't believe that the financial system is a ponzi scheme than your IQ is that of a worm.
Zoran, GDP is not the same as GDP per capita. There are thousands, if not even millions of chinese working in Russia for peanuts. LOL, people from "the oriental giant" have to go and work with uzbeks in a dive like Russia.
Zoran, GDP is not the same as GDP per capita.
(500billiondinar, 6 July 2015 22:20)
--
My friend, the original poster referred to the countries, not the people so I made a point of proving him wrong. Perhaps he wasn't being clear.
That's the only language these monsters understand.
(Ari Gold, 6 July 2015 09:42)
I like this one comment of yours but the below Swedish text of 1697 will kill you. To read it you will need some knowledge of the Russian though.
«Placzewnaja recz na pogrebenie togho prez segho welemozneiszago i wysokorozdennagho knjazja i ghossudarja Karolusa odinatsetogho swidskich, gothskich i wandalskich (i proczaja) korola, slavnagho, blaghogowennagho i milostiwagho naszego ghossudaja (!), nynjeze u bogha spasennagho. Kogda jegho korolewskogo weliczestwa ot duszi ostawlennoe tjelo, s podobajuszczjusae korolewskoju scestju, i serserdecznym wsich poddannych rydaniem byst pogrebenno w Stokolnje (!) dwatset-scetwertago nowemrja ljeta ot woploszczenia bogha slowa 1697″.
Arnie it was the funeral service speech after Karl XI written by the Ceremonymeister of the Swedish Court Uhan Gabriel Sparvenfeld. The full text was of 6 pages and all of them in Russian. How can you explain this language ? When you fail to please ask me for help. Also tell me what are the real numbers of the Swedish kings ?
Zoran, and if Greece defaults who would pay salaries and pensions there.
(dinarisanarabcurrency, 7 July 2015 14:16)
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Greece will still have an economy, agriculture, tourism, etc... to pay its bills but it won't have the billions in interest to pay its former creditors. It will have to revert to the Drachma though.
I think Greece will have a much better chance with Russia and China and default on its debt than with the EU and US and unsustainable debt. The global geopolitical scene is changing every day in favour of the BRICS.
(Zoran, 7 July 2015 02:10)
Not sure what "with Russia and China" means!!! Do you mean that a person in China, who on average have a GDP less than half of Greece's, will sacrifice the food of his children so that a Greek can retire early?!!!! In addition what gurantees that Greece with repay Russia and China back?! Even if the global geopolitical scene changes every day in favour of the BRICS (whatever that means), that does not mean that the BRICS (which are all poorer than Greece) have money to waste so that Greeks can keep their higher standards of living. How do you come up with such trash?!
------------
Watch this space my friends. Greece will show the path to the alternative.
(Zoran, 6 July 2015 15:20)
Yup, it showed it already if you've seen the scenes from the Greek banks & ATM machines in the last few days. I would not wish that path of losing the savings of a lifetime to anybody.
----------
My friend, the original poster referred to the countries, not the people so I made a point of proving him wrong. Perhaps he wasn't being clear.
(Zoran, 7 July 2015 01:57)
You just proved that you have no clue lol How many more idiotic statements are you going to make today?! So, Monaco is poorer than Kosovo according to your logic!!!
Zoran, and if Greece defaults who would pay salaries and pensions there. USA is down the toilet as well, so it can't work like it did for you guys under Sloba when diaspora sent tons of cash.
Yes in the EU, democracy is "irresponsible". Stupid Greeks, you are supposed to let the bureaucrats in Brussels dictate your laws to you and shut up about it.
Seriously though, what a bloody nose Greece gave to the EU yesterday. That's the only language these monsters understand.
I suppose all the surrounding countries sealing their borders from the expected civil war about to start in bankrupt poor Greece where people have no food to eat.
(Azir, 6 July 2015 11:41)
LOL well if you're widely known as a village idiot around here, why stop being one today, right? Life in Greece today is still way better than that dump you call Albania. Look at all the Albanians working as cheap labor there. There's probably some among your own tribal clan.
Congratulations to Greece and I am happy to see an "Alternative to the EU" developing quite strongly. Greece could have continued to be a slave to the EU and US or as it has now voted, to free itself!
Lets see the alternative develop, shortly, Russia and China will come to help Greece. Not to help service its debt as that debt will be wiped clean... but to help Greece with a fresh clean start, one aligned with Russia, China, it's new world bank and the BRICS.
If the model succeeds, it will show the path to the new and better alternative, one where small countries can succeed instead of being enslaved. Looks like Russia, China and the BRICS are ready to take over where the US and EU have failed.
Serbia will be there soon, it was nearly bankrupted following the Western enslavement system and it will soon look towards Russia and China for a new start also. The cracks and weakness in the failing western system is fairly obvious now.
Hilarious how some Albanians here are against the "No" vote when they've proven to be the worst people with making honest money in Europe, have no economic skills, and have constantly begged others to bail them out of problems they can't solve on their own. Does their hatred for others force them to take such illogical positions? If so, it only proves how brainwashed they are. But if they were the ones who voted no and if their country was a screwed up as Greece (it's more screwed up because Greece actually had international investment - who invests anything where Albanians live?) they'd be proclaiming some "Albanian pride" thing.
Don't worry Greece your trusted and beloved neighbors the Serbs and Russians that also share with you their cultural,historical,religious and spiteful traits will come to your rescue.
They will financialy bail you out and together you clowns will rule your circus.
I knew Greeks were dumb but I didn't realize how dumb until after the suicide vote on Sunday.
I suppose all the surrounding countries sealing their borders from the expected civil war about to start in bankrupt poor Greece where people have no food to eat.
Further evidence that everything is about to change in the Balkans.
First, this is a likely death blow to all Balkan EU aspirations. After getting shafted for upwards of $200B, The North will never again absorb "primitive" economies into their rich boy's club. From here on, its all about CEFTA and who dominates regional trade. In that equation, its Greece well ahead of everyone with Serbia a distant second.
Second, heavy-handed foreign involvement in the Balkans is over. Russia will soon knock at the door for gas-hungry Balkan economies. In this equation, "the cost" of Serbia's disposition just went way up. Time to be nice to Serbia again.
Third, the big losers are those who placed excessive hope on getting into the EU (at the cost of all else): Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo.
Fourth, the UK will leave next. And if they dont leave, their "involvement" will only be a charade. Portugal will likely follow.
Go to the bank and demand a loan for a house and set your own terms and tell them take it or leave it, and see what happens.
(too funny, 6 July 2015 14:07)
--
Greece already got its loans and it is not paying them back, it already defaulted on one repayment and it will continue to do so. In other words, it has essentially declared bankruptcy and the population have supported it. Once bankrupt my friend, you are debt free and there is no point negotiating with the very same institutions that got you there in the first place.
If China and Russia now help Greece through these difficult times then we will all see a viable alternative, Serbia, Spain and the rest included. We have all heard there is no alternative but now is the time to prove otherwise.
I think Greece will revert to the Drachma and it probably has enough strength in its own economy to keep its head above water without having to pay the interest demanded by their previous slave drivers.
Watch this space my friends. Greece will show the path to the alternative. Not to worry though, the EU still has the loyalty of Albanians. LOL!
They will financialy bail you out and together you clowns will rule your circus.
(Azir, 6 July 2015 11:41)
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LOL!! You think Russia and China will bail Greece out of its unsustainable debt? You think they will give money to the corrupt Western system? No my friend, Greece will go bankrupt and the debt will be wiped!
Russia, China and the BRICS will be there to assist Greece in this difficult time. What will result is a newly freed Greece that has escaped the slavery imposed on it by the West. Greece is showing the world the way to the alternative. China's power has been underestimated.
LOL Zoran, you have no clue. Nobody helps somebody famous for not repaying debts back.
(Reader, 6 July 2015 16:17)
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LOL Reader, the debts aren't Russia's and China's. They are essentially debts of the EU tax payer and some nation banks. Now that Greece has essentially abandoned the EU, I don't think Greece is expecting help from them either.
Given the situation they are in, they are more inclined to accept help from the alternative BRICS. That won't come freely so it goes something like telling the US to get lost if it tries to block a Russian pipeline going through Greece, which helps both nations financially.
"He said that the democratic will of the Greek voters must be respected, but also the will of the voters from 18 other Eurozone members to support the austerity program."
Really? In many countries there is no support for it at all. The EU citizens unlike the Greek were not consulted if they wanted the austerity program in the first place. That was simply imposed on them by unelected burocrats such as Schulz.
EU citizens were not consulted if they wanted to bail out banks that made bad investments in Greece cause that is what that bailout was about. The Greek might collectively be responsible for the mess they are in but irresponsible lenders gave them the money to do that. These knew very well they would be bailed out.
The Greek gave the EU a lesson in democracy. Oh, the EU and the ECB will go after them (the IMF already admitted that Greece's debt is unpayable) cause the very undemocratic EU demands submission.
"Greek were not consulted if they wanted the austerity program in the first place"
Did the Greek gov. consult its people whether they wanted to borrow as much money as they did and cripple their country with debt? What is this, we borrow but we don't want to pay it back?
Simply the Greece people are Lazy so ist the Balkan as a whole Lazy why the Germans never have financial problems?
couz the don't sleep till 10 like the balkans people do.
Anyone who was dumb enough to loman money to the people who were under turkish rule for hundreds of years desire their losses. Balkanites can forget the illusions of even China building them out. What is the point of givi ng money to countries where half of the population Works for the government and other half for tourist industry, it is a botomless pit.
"Hilarious how some Albanians here are against the "No""
I am neither for a no or a yes, it matters not one iota to me how they vote, however, there is this perception that Greece is standing up to unfair and bullying demands that I personally find odd. Not one financial institution has asked the Greek gov. to borrow money, not one. it has decided to do that out of its own accord and now the fact that it finds itself uinable to pay it back, seems to be lauded as a courageous act, a blow against oppressors when all it is is seeking to restructure its debt on its own terms. oh, and whatever you have to say for piss poor Albania, it has never defaulted on its debt
FYI Zoran, Russia and China said NO to helping Greece financially.
(Teodor Muzaka 1389, 6 July 2015 15:35)
--
Of course they did. They said no to bailing Greece out, which would essentially mean giving their money away to the US and EU. However, now that Greece has defaulted, there is nothing to pay to the EU. The debt is wiped but there will be consequences facing Greece now, so that is where Russia, China and the BRICS come in. Firstly with mutually beneficial investments and secondly with helping Greece fend off another velvet revolution that is most likely planned.
Russia and China would have been stupid to help Greece financially. The debt was unsustainable and they would have lost also. Now only the EU and US lose, mainly the tax payer.
That's the only language these monsters understand.
(Ari Gold, 6 July 2015 09:42)
I like this one comment of yours but the below Swedish text of 1697 will kill you. To read it you will need some knowledge of the Russian though.
«Placzewnaja recz na pogrebenie togho prez segho welemozneiszago i wysokorozdennagho knjazja i ghossudarja Karolusa odinatsetogho swidskich, gothskich i wandalskich (i proczaja) korola, slavnagho, blaghogowennagho i milostiwagho naszego ghossudaja (!), nynjeze u bogha spasennagho. Kogda jegho korolewskogo weliczestwa ot duszi ostawlennoe tjelo, s podobajuszczjusae korolewskoju scestju, i serserdecznym wsich poddannych rydaniem byst pogrebenno w Stokolnje (!) dwatset-scetwertago nowemrja ljeta ot woploszczenia bogha slowa 1697″.
Arnie it was the funeral service speech after Karl XI written by the Ceremonymeister of the Swedish Court Uhan Gabriel Sparvenfeld. The full text was of 6 pages and all of them in Russian. How can you explain this language ? When you fail to please ask me for help. Also tell me what are the real numbers of the Swedish kings ?
Zoran, where would Russia and China get the money for that. Why should russian pensioner have its Pension cut just so greek or a serb can continuous buy in german cars and eva Ding taxes. China is even poorer than Russia.
Boon UK:
"why the Germans never have financial problems?"
Here is a link to world debt:
http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html
Germans played it well. The profited the most from the Euro and their cheap reunifaction plan funded Euro they borrowed to whomever wanted to borrow. They exposed themselves too much. And then they had a problem when TSHF. Even more so if you realize that Deutsche Bank is exposed to 50 trillion Euro worth of derivatives. That and the pensionfunds were at risk because they overexposed themselves.
China is even poorer than Russia.
(dreamon, 6 July 2015 15:45)
--
LOL! You are funny, since we are talking about countries here, the CIA is saying China is the richest country in the world, Russia is 7th. Oh, India is 4th and Brazil is 8th.
Zoran, GDP is not the same as GDP per capita. There are thousands, if not even millions of chinese working in Russia for peanuts. LOL, people from "the oriental giant" have to go and work with uzbeks in a dive like Russia.
Nikolle, you don't quote me fully:
"The EU citizens unlike the Greek were not consulted if they wanted the austerity program in the first place".
Previous Greek governments borrowed money (cheap German reunification Euro that functioned as a hidden export subsidy for zee Germans and kept German labour costs down making German products more competitive) in order to keep their election promises. That is what I meant when I said that the Greek are collectively responsible for their mess. BUT...the lenders gave them all they wanted to borrow very well knowing that Greece is a basket case with dubious finances. They took a risk. Lenders get a reward for taking risks ....but they run risks. In the case of Greece it all went wrong. According to pure capitalism, you need to take your losses in such cases. But they were bailed out by the EU tax payers (who did not have anything to say about that). Does anybody bail you out when you make a bad investment? Don't think so.
Is it fair that tax payers bail out irresponsible lenders? Don't think so either.
If Greece should default, then it are the EU tax payers that are on the hook to pay off their debt. Funny thing is -just like in the US after Lehmann brothers- that the money to pay off the debt was probably even borrowed from the same institutions that were bailed out with the Greek bail out. With interest of course. The financial system is pretty f'ed up because it is a system that privatizes profits and socializes losses.
I don't know what will happen now..
The situation is really - really bad, catastrophic.
All i must tell is: I support Greece.
Greece is not is sale.
(6 July 2015 11:41) - i don't know if you are an Albanian, but we have suffered the same in 90, so i think in all the Balkan countries just we must understand better the Greek people and should support them.
"you bail out the person who owes the debt, not the person who its owed to".
Dear god, you really don't understand what happened now, do you? German, French and Dutch banks and pension funds knowingly took risks in Greece. Risks get rewarded. Hedgefunds take the biggest risk and get the biggest rewards. Everybody knew the Greek cooked their books and had high public spending (so had the Italians). The EU knew it when they allowed Greece into the EU and into the Euro. Then it all came tumbling down. The banks had a problem. Just like Mr. Panos says (google him): "if you lend me small money, I have a problem. If you lend me big money, you have a problem". These banks had the problem that they had outstanding credits that they could not retrieve if Greece would default on their debts. So that is why Van Rompuy, Merkel and Sarkozy came up with the cunning plan to have the EU taxpayer pay for it. So the EU, ECB and IMF gave money to Greece that then paid off the banks. A British NGO calculated that of the bailout only 10% reached Greek society, the rest was used to pay off the debt to the lenders. Now, that bail out was yet another loan for which EU taxpayers stand as guarantees. Greece needs to pay off that loan and there is a debt plan until 2050 I believe.
Again, taxpayers should not bail out banks. That is not true capitalism.
(ohdear, 6 July 2015 16:42)
Actually, I am Dutch and their average IQ is 110. Mine was tested twice and ranges between 129 and 131.
And if you don't believe that the financial system is a ponzi scheme than your IQ is that of a worm.
Oh I see, you did not mean financial help, that is money to pay pensions and salaries (which is what Greece desperately needs right now). You meant that if Russia builds the pipeline and if China invests in feta cheese and olive oil, Greece will prosper again.
(Reader, 6 July 2015 20:06)
--
I think Greece will have a much better chance with Russia and China and default on its debt than with the EU and US and unsustainable debt. The global geopolitical scene is changing every day in favour of the BRICS.
(Dwight, 6 July 2015 11:07)
The thing is, in the EU you can only vote for the candidates of your own country not from another country. Not that I would have voted for him. Anyway, he was selected by the parties in the EP. So I give you credit there. The EC of course was not at all open to election. In some EU countries you can vote who becomes president. In the EU you cannot.
oh dear, I like you how you put irresponsible lenders, as if somehow debt is a one way street. and by the way, you bail out the person who owes the debt, not the person who its owed to. that person will always have an asset, unless it agrees to write it off. scratch your post further and we come across words like zee Germans, which suggests a certain racism on your part. The Greek gov. has been found to have cooked its books before, this is legitimate gov. elected by its own population engaging shoddy deals to shore up its finances. now, it wants a fresh start with no strings attach. when one borrows, it can't assume that the lender will automatically write it off, that ultimately depends on the creditor. if Greece can't pay it off, then it has to sell whatever assets or gold reserves it holds to break clean. this is what balancing is. from what i read, the money that was borrowed was not used to improve its industry or economy, it was used to bloat an already over-bloated public sector. greece wants to be bailed out, but on terms it dictates to those who it has borrowed from, most bizarre
LOL!! You think Russia and China will bail Greece out of its unsustainable debt? You think they will give money to the corrupt Western system? No my friend, Greece will go bankrupt and the debt will be wiped!
Russia, China and the BRICS will be there to assist Greece in this difficult time. What will result is a newly freed Greece that has escaped the slavery imposed on it by the West. Greece is showing the world the way to the alternative. China's power has been underestimated.
(Zoran, 6 July 2015 13:30)
FYI Zoran, Russia and China said NO to helping Greece financially.
How is Greece giving a lesson in democracy to Europe?
Asking a debtor if he wants to pay the money back? Do we need to vote to know the answer to that?
I wish I could vote too if I want to pay that loan I took to buy my house, and give the bank some lesson in democracy and show what a proud guy I am.
I could easily predict what is going to happen in the ground in chronological order in Greece, it is fairly clear - it happened in many countries before, most famously Argentina.
- The banks have no more euros and the ECB will not lend them more. So capital controls will stay in place, no matter what they say, for the general public at least.
- The government and all public companies will stop paying everyone except pensioners and public servants, sending even more businesses under, deepening the crisis.
- Food and energy will stop arriving as there is no way to pay for them and so the government will raid the banks for hard currency, and the EU will have to dispatch emergency aid.
- Businesses within the EU will stop all transaction with Greece (and Greek credit cards will stop working abroad).
- The drachma will be back within a month, and will devalue by 50%, which will translate into hyperinflation.
Eventually the situation will stabilise in 2016. Greece will remain in the EU (it will *really* need the aid), but will have a pariah state for the next decade. Ugly.
And all of that for the political ambition of Tsipras. He won't be remembered kindly.
Zoran, and if Greece defaults who would pay salaries and pensions there. USA is down the toilet as well, so it can't work like it did for you guys under Sloba when diaspora sent tons of cash.
I think Greece will have a much better chance with Russia and China and default on its debt than with the EU and US and unsustainable debt. The global geopolitical scene is changing every day in favour of the BRICS.
(Zoran, 7 July 2015 02:10)
Not sure what "with Russia and China" means!!! Do you mean that a person in China, who on average have a GDP less than half of Greece's, will sacrifice the food of his children so that a Greek can retire early?!!!! In addition what gurantees that Greece with repay Russia and China back?! Even if the global geopolitical scene changes every day in favour of the BRICS (whatever that means), that does not mean that the BRICS (which are all poorer than Greece) have money to waste so that Greeks can keep their higher standards of living. How do you come up with such trash?!
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Watch this space my friends. Greece will show the path to the alternative.
(Zoran, 6 July 2015 15:20)
Yup, it showed it already if you've seen the scenes from the Greek banks & ATM machines in the last few days. I would not wish that path of losing the savings of a lifetime to anybody.
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My friend, the original poster referred to the countries, not the people so I made a point of proving him wrong. Perhaps he wasn't being clear.
(Zoran, 7 July 2015 01:57)
You just proved that you have no clue lol How many more idiotic statements are you going to make today?! So, Monaco is poorer than Kosovo according to your logic!!!
(Zoran, 6 July 2015 13:19)
You are too funny!
Greece does not have the money to pay its bills, it needs more money from the EU now to stay afloat and not totally collapse. They need money to allow their banks to open and let people withdraw their own money out.
But you think, its ok, they can turn to the BRICS bank whenever it opens in the next 18 months and if it gives ALL its capital to Greece they will be OK, of course that money has to be paid back also.
The Brics bank is not going to open its doors with a 100 billion dollars, the commitment of investments is over a number of years to total 100 billion. Greece will need 15-20 billion initially to stay alive. So without EU money Greece is circling the drain and by the time Brics gets around to helping it will be too late.
You and others think that Greece and Serbia can just demand money from the EU on your terms and that these countries should not have any say about it. It does not work that way.
Go to the bank and demand a loan for a house and set your own terms and tell them take it or leave it, and see what happens. You could get away with it IF you really do not need the money and the association with you would be financially beneficial in the future. But I doubt you can guarantee that for yourself and neither can Greece or Serbia.
As of now Greece does not have a plan B, its going to be interesting to see how they pull this off.
LOL well if you're widely known as a village idiot around here, why stop being one today, right? Life in Greece today is still way better than that dump you call Albania. Look at all the Albanians working as cheap labor there. There's probably some among your own tribal clan.
(Albo Troll Wranger, 6 July 2015 17:27)
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that with $450B+ of free money and continuous support from the West, for now over 100 years, of course Greeks will live better, indeed they should have been living much better. But borrowing money was pretty much the only merit they have in the standard of living they enjoy..... times are changing though....
I have visited Greece and several Balkan countries, and the bureaucratic system in Greece, is the same, if not inferior to that of other less developed Balkan countries. Same goes for workforce qualification, work culture, etc.
Oh I see, you did not mean financial help, that is money to pay pensions and salaries (which is what Greece desperately needs right now). You meant that if Russia builds the pipeline and if China invests in feta cheese and olive oil, Greece will prosper again.
Zoran, GDP is not the same as GDP per capita.
(500billiondinar, 6 July 2015 22:20)
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My friend, the original poster referred to the countries, not the people so I made a point of proving him wrong. Perhaps he wasn't being clear.
Zoran,
Your theory has a few serious flaws that Serbs tend to ignore.
Out of the BRICS countries the only one that is actually in a financial position to really help Greece is China. Russia to a smaller extent.
But they have different financial policies than the EU very much so, and if you researched the "help" given to Serbia you could recognize this.
Russia wants material possession in exchange for any money input. Like Gazprom owns the energy sector in Serbia, Greece would have to fork over their assets for Russian money. China is different, their loans benefit the Chinese economy. China would lend Greece the much needed money to build infrastructure but instead of creating much needed Greek jobs, it would be tied to paying Chinese contractors to do the work.
What you say is true as far as bankruptcy, but the problem is that Greece does not only need the money for the debts it needs money to stay solvent or continue to pay its daily bills inside Greece. To get any influx in money you either go back to the original lenders or to new ones. Origninal ones may take a chance "with stipulations" in order to regain some of what they lost. New lenders will be leary and money will come at very high prices. It won't be because "we like the Greeks and want to give them free money"
There is no court system that absolves countries of debt when they default similar to bankruptcy laws, it is up to individuals to forgive debt.
Zoran, and if Greece defaults who would pay salaries and pensions there.
(dinarisanarabcurrency, 7 July 2015 14:16)
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Greece will still have an economy, agriculture, tourism, etc... to pay its bills but it won't have the billions in interest to pay its former creditors. It will have to revert to the Drachma though.
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